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BCF
Dec 22nd 2008, 03:17 PM
I'm going to keep this intro to this thread short, instead of including my thoughts on this topic with it. I do not make this thread to cause division among us. I make this thread in hopes that we all dig into the Scripture that Our Lord has provided for us, with the hopes that we all draw closer to Him through our Study for Gods Glory, and Gods Glory only. I wish to keep this thread as peaceful as possible so that those who do not participate with the Study, and just follow along, can learn also, and grow along with us.

I Give Praise to God for the opportunity to have this discussion, and pray that He keeps His Blessing on it for us, and His Glory.

Thank you for your time,

God Bless,

Dave :)

BCF
Dec 22nd 2008, 03:37 PM
This is a topic that has started from another thread, that I have decided to make it's own thread, thanks to the suggestion from Trusting Follower. The thread is about the Death of Adam in the Garden. Was it a Physical Death...or was it a Spiritual Death. I say that it was a Spiritual Death, and to start things off I will say for this reason:

"Genesis 2:17, But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

In this verse we find God saying to Adam that if he ate from the tree....he would die in the day that he ate from it. The word die in Greek means apoleia...meaning, ruin or loss physical or Spiritual eternal. We all know that Adam did not die a physical death, b/c he went on to live 900+ years after eating from the tree.

Some say that Psalms 90:4, which says:

"For a thousand years in Your sight Are like yesterday when it passes by, Or as a watch in the night."

And 2Peter 3:8, which says:

"¶But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day."

Supports the fact....along with other scripture....that Adam died a Physical Death in the Garden.

I do not see that support in those two scriptures, which is the reason for the start of this thread. That should bring everyone up to date on this thread, so nobody gets lost, now we can all start our Study from here.

God Bless to you all,

Dave

David Taylor
Dec 22nd 2008, 03:41 PM
Sin in the garden introduced death two-fold to us.

1) It introduced the physical death of our bodies
2) It introduced the spiritual death of our souls...and God quickly showed us both in word and phyiscal imagery, that a saviour would come to take away our sins.

Genesis 3:15 "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

Genesis 3:21 "Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them."

The first animal sacrifice, pointing to the true sacrifice (Jesus) that would later come who would provide salvation from their sins.

BCF
Dec 22nd 2008, 04:08 PM
Sin in the garden introduced death two-fold to us.

1) It introduced the physical death of our bodies
2) It introduced the spiritual death of our souls...and God quickly showed us both in word and phyiscal imagery, that a saviour would come to take away our sins.

Genesis 3:15 "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

Genesis 3:21 "Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them."

The first animal sacrifice, pointing to the true sacrifice (Jesus) that would later come who would provide salvation from their sins.

I can agree that it introduced physical death...yes, but Adam and Eve did not die a physical death in the Garden. In Genesis 3:7, I read this, which tells me that they did not die a physical death:

"And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves (aprons)"...(which in Hebrew means coverings).

What this tells me is that after they had eaten from the tree, they discovered sin...which was something that they did not know. So they covered up the sin. If they died a physical death as some say...they never would have seen what sin was in the first place. Like I said before. God said in Genesis 2:17, that if they would eat from the tree...they would die on the day that they ate of it. Well...they did die on the day that they ate of the tree. A Spiritual Death....not a Physical Death.

And yes...it not only introduced a Spiritual Death...but according to the writings of Moses... a Spiritual Death actually happened in the Garden. And your scripture was perfect to prove that point.

God Bless

Dave

TrustingFollower
Dec 22nd 2008, 04:12 PM
The death had to be a physical death also. The physical testifies to the spiritual all through out the scriptures. God manifests thing in the physical in order for man to see what is really going on which is spiritual. So from the verses we see that a year to God is 1000 years of our time and hence Adam died 70 years short of one day. If this was not true then God would have had no reason for baring them from the tree of life.

Genesis 3

22 ¶Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever" --

So we know that God does not lie so we have to conclude that when he said they would surely die in the day they ate of the tree of good and evil, then he meant they would physically die. This also caused the spiritual death because they were separated for the intimate communion with God so the spiritual death happened instantly, but the physical took 930 to come to fullness.

matthew94
Dec 22nd 2008, 04:27 PM
They did not die physically or spiritually that day, in a technical sense. They died both physically and spiritually in a more meaningful sense.

How can we claim that they died that day physically? Certainly not literally. But they were, indeed, cut off from the tree of life, and since God alone is immortal, they no longer were connected to what was necessary for gifted immortality. Because of this, that day began their physical death.

How can we claim that they spiritually died that day? Not literally. They still had contact with God. They still had a relationship with God (albeit damaged). They still had an interest in God. They died spiritually in a more important sense, just like they died physically in a more important sense than literal. They were now disconnected, in the most important degree, from intimacy with God and each other.

I think rather than try to determine in what way they literally died on that "day," we should focus on the word "death." I interpret the verse to mean something more along the lines of "the day you eat it will surely produce death." God is saying that that specific act is what is responsible for death being introduced into mankind.

Just my 2 cents

theBelovedDisciple
Dec 22nd 2008, 04:45 PM
Sin in the garden introduced death two-fold to us.

1) It introduced the physical death of our bodies
2) It introduced the spiritual death of our souls...and God quickly showed us both in word and phyiscal imagery, that a saviour would come to take away our sins.

Genesis 3:15 "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

Genesis 3:21 "Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them."

The first animal sacrifice, pointing to the true sacrifice (Jesus) that would later come who would provide salvation from their sins.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes a 'two-fold' introduction to physical death and spiritual death...

Where the 1st Adam failed the 2nd Adam, Jesus the Christ.. did not.. the 1st Adam was made a living soul.. but the 2nd Adam (last Adam) was made a 'quickening' Spirit... thus Redemption and Forgiveness thru His shed blood giving the soul/spirit/body (person) Eternal Life.. this thru belief in the Christ Jesus's completed and Atoning/Redemptive Work on that bloody tree.. the Gift of Righteousness ... and Eternal Life....

In the end death itself will be but a faded memory.. it cast into the Lake of Fire... and the curse of sin no more.. God's Redemptive Plan completed and

death oh death.. where is thy vicotry? where is they 'sting'?

it is 'no more'...

Conquered and defeated by Christ's Own Physical Death on that bloody tree and subsequent Resurrection from the Dead.. the TOMB IS EMPTY!


And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.

BCF
Dec 22nd 2008, 04:49 PM
TrustingFollower,

Good Morning my friend,


The death had to be a physical death also. The physical testifies to the spiritual all through out the scriptures.

This can't be. The physical is the body (flesh), and Paul tells us in Romans 7 that the flesh is carnal. A carnal body cannot testify for a Spiritual body. The Spiritual body comes from God. The canal body comes from man.
Physical cannot testify for the Spiritual. Gods Spirit will not strive with man.


God manifests thing in the physical in order for man to see what is really going on which is spiritual.

This cannot be either. God manifest things from the heart. Only God can see the heart of man...we cannot. Jesus says in Luke 6:45 this,

"A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good."

All we see is the good treasure....but whether or not that good treasure is true from the heart or not we don't see. Only God knows what is good and what is not good. In Mark 10:18, we have the rich young ruler calling Jesus good Master in verse 17. Then in verse 18 Jesus says this to him:

"Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is God."

Even Jesus himself questioned someone when they called him (Jesus) good. Why? Because the rich young ruler did not know the heart of Jesus...which is why the rich young ruler could not do what Jesus asked him to do in verse 21. Jesus being God knew the rulers heart....but the ruler did not know the heart of Jesus. All the ruler saw was the outward affects of what Jesus did. That is all we see in people also....the outward affect of their heart. But we have know idea where there heart is with God. The rich young ruler did a lot of good things and even kept all of the commandments from his youth on up. But his heart still was not with God. So for God to manifest things in the physical in order for man to see what is really going on can't be right. It was not that way with the rich young ruler.


This also caused the spiritual death because they were separated for the intimate communion with God so the spiritual death happened instantly, but the physical took 930 to come to fullness.

If this were the case....well then in what way do you believe that Eve was thinking she would not die by eating of the tree, when satan told her in Genesis 3:4, that she should not surly die?

theBelovedDisciple
Dec 22nd 2008, 05:00 PM
One cannot die 'spiritually' and then not die 'physically'... Sin in the Garden afftected them both Physically and Spiritually.... the physical death would come later ..but it was a result of sin.... The body will return to the dust from whence it came or was formed.. this is a result of sin.. and the soul/spirit will either be with God (born again) or separated from God for Eternity (eternal damnation) .. God made a way though.. thru His Own Sacrafice... His Own Begotten...God in the flesh.... who was sinless and accomplished what the 1st Adam could not.. to walk perfectly and in obedience to the Father... the way it was planned. with out disobedience and its tragic results which was death physically and death spiritually..

The Last Adam was made a quickening Spirit giving 'life' to those who are dead in trespasses and sins.. being Born Again....

One must ask oneself? Have I been quickened by that "last Adam"... Have you experienced the New Birth.. which God starts and finishes...

BCF
Dec 22nd 2008, 06:01 PM
Hi matthew94, nice to hear from you.


They did not die physically or spiritually that day, in a technical sense. They died both physically and spiritually in a more meaningful sense.

In scripture....where do you find one dying physically or spiritually in a meaningful sense?


How can we claim that they died that day physically?

I don't believe that we can with scripture.


But they were, indeed, cut off from the tree of life, and since God alone is immortal, they no longer were connected to what was necessary for gifted immortality. Because of this, that day began their physical death.


Being cut off from the tree of life does not cause a physical death....sin does. Being cut off from the tree of life is the same as being taken out of the Lambs Book Of Life. We are taken out of the Lambs Book of Life Spiritually not Physically, if you change anything in Gods written word. In the Physical we turn back to dust....in the Spirit we belong to God....and God can do what He wants if we don't obey.


How can we claim that they spiritually died that day?

Because God said in Genesis 2:17:

"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

Adam and Eve did not die on the day that they ate from the tree. God does not lie, and God said that they would die. So they had to die in someway. Well....if it was not physical....and we know that b/c Adam lived another 900+ years after the fact, it had to be Spiritually.


They still had contact with God.

Even satan has contact with God.....the book of Job proves that.


They still had contact with God. They still had a relationship with God (albeit damaged).

God is ever present. Anybody has contact with God. Anybody can have a relationship with God....for a time. Then when everything is going alright again...so does the relationship. God gets treated like this all the time through out the world.


They still had an interest in God.

I can take you to a jail and show you 100 people who are interested in God....why? b/c they are in trouble. But as soon as that trouble goes away....so does the interest.


I think rather than try to determine in what way they literally died on that "day," we should focus on the word "death."

The scripture does not say death in Genesis 2:17....it says die:

"Genesis 2:17, But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

We don't change words in scripture so that we can wrap our minds around it...so that it makes sense to our culture. Instead we look and study what the word meant that was used and come up with a answer.

The word die in Greek means apoleia...meaning, ruin or loss physical or Spiritual eternal. We take that meaning and go from there.

God Bless,

Dave

matthew94
Dec 22nd 2008, 06:16 PM
Hey Dave :)

1. I'm not sure what your asking in your first quote. Are you asking where we find those specific words, or where we find the concept? I'm obviously talking about the concept. And I'd say Genesis 2.

2. I do believe we can say they died, that day, physically. If we understand 'die' in a different sense than a 1 moment event. And that surely is allowable in the definition. It's like when we use the term 'saved.' Most think it refers to the one moment transition (justification). It can mean that. But it can also speak of the entire process of God redeeming us (it has past, present & future application). Adam and Eve died that day, physically, in the sense that they began to die.

3. We die b/c we aren't connected to the source of eternal life. I won't argue about whether it's the lack of eating from the tree of life or sin that actually kills us. It's both/and, not either/or. If they would have stayed in the garden, they could have continually stayed alive in God. They didn't, so they couldn't.

4. You can't declare that God said they died spiritual in 2:17 and THEN claim that I am changing Scriptures around. Scripture doesn't make a point to define exactly what 'die' refers to there. It's open to interpretation.

You say they 'had to die in some way' but insist it must be a complete 'death'. I say they began to 'die' that very day in a holistic sense (both spiritually and physically). We're both interpreting the passage as best we can. At least one of us is slightly misunderstanding the intention.

5. You seem to have missed my point in regards to the idea that they were completely 'dead' spiritually. I wasn't saying they were OK with God. I was saying that the image of God was corrupted by the Fall, not eliminated. If you're overly encamped in western mindsets, you won't like that line of thinking. But I think it is biblically sound.

6. So I agree we take the meaning of die and go from there. But, apparently, you and I come to different conclusions about this.

In Christ,
matthew

reformedct
Dec 22nd 2008, 06:23 PM
I can agree that it introduced physical death...yes, but Adam and Eve did not die a physical death in the Garden. In Genesis 3:7, I read this, which tells me that they did not die a physical death:

"And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves (aprons)"...(which in Hebrew means coverings).

What this tells me is that after they had eaten from the tree, they discovered sin...which was something that they did not know. So they covered up the sin. If they died a physical death as some say...they never would have seen what sin was in the first place. Like I said before. God said in Genesis 2:17, that if they would eat from the tree...they would die on the day that they ate of it. Well...they did die on the day that they ate of the tree. A Spiritual Death....not a Physical Death.

And yes...it not only introduced a Spiritual Death...but according to the writings of Moses... a Spiritual Death actually happened in the Garden. And your scripture was perfect to prove that point.

God Bless

Dave

it os also my personal belief that it was a sort of spiritual death

because before the sin man was unashamed and had perfect relationship with God

after he sins, he hides from God. His intimate relationship with God is marred and crooked now.

The only problem is that i dont think the bible explicitly states what type of death this was. obviously Adam died physically later on.

and of course a day to the Lord is a thousand years so there is also the issue of translating the word "day"

all i know is mankind is dead in some way

dead to righteousness, dead in tresspasses and sins, the wages of sin is death, thats why Jesus had to die for sin

proverbs 20:27 says the spirit of man is the lamp(some versions say candle) of the Lord. so can it be that every man has a spirit that is in a sense alive, but without God it is not lit?

this is very interesting. I really would like to know exactly what the nature of man is before and after salvation

in ezekiel God talks about taking out a stony heart and giving a heart of flesh. Is the stony heart a spiritually dead person? heart means the center of our being right?

i think heart and spirit are synonomous. so it would be like saying unsaved people have a cold spirit of stone. They have a spirit, but it is hardened to the things of God.


to me it is very important what the exact condition of man is because it effects our view of what exactly happens when we are "born again"

just the term born again relates to spiritual birth, so what is the condition of the spirit before it is born again? dead, or just cold?

really tricky one

TrustingFollower
Dec 22nd 2008, 06:26 PM
If one day to God is not 1000 years of our time then why is the "Day of the Lord" the 1000 year reign shown to us in Revelation 20?

I have to run some errands now, but there are a few thing above I would like to look into further so I will be back. Thanks for starting this thread Dave, it's proving to be a very interesting subject.

reformedct
Dec 22nd 2008, 06:34 PM
They did not die physically or spiritually that day, in a technical sense. They died both physically and spiritually in a more meaningful sense.

How can we claim that they died that day physically? Certainly not literally. But they were, indeed, cut off from the tree of life, and since God alone is immortal, they no longer were connected to what was necessary for gifted immortality. Because of this, that day began their physical death.

How can we claim that they spiritually died that day? Not literally. They still had contact with God. They still had a relationship with God (albeit damaged). They still had an interest in God. They died spiritually in a more important sense, just like they died physically in a more important sense than literal. They were now disconnected, in the most important degree, from intimacy with God and each other.

I think rather than try to determine in what way they literally died on that "day," we should focus on the word "death." I interpret the verse to mean something more along the lines of "the day you eat it will surely produce death." God is saying that that specific act is what is responsible for death being introduced into mankind.

Just my 2 cents


this seems accurate to me. i think the death was a reference to them being cut off from immortality and life with perfect relationship with God.

both physically and spiritually

how can you be cut off from God and immortality and not be spiritually affected? hmm

its interesting that God says get them out lest they eat of the tree of life and live forever. In a sense death is actually a blessing from God, because we could have still lived forever in a fallen state by eating the tree of life lol sounds like a rpg video game or something (no disrespect to the Word)

what else i find interesting. There is a verse saying that the mind of the natural man cannot understand or submit to the things of God, yet God talked to Adam after he sinned. However, God also audibly talked to alot of people in the OT, thats how we got the 10 commandments. Also, when Jesus was baptised and the Father said, "this is my Son, in whom i am well pleased", i dont believe everyone was a believer in the audience.

So whether we were spiritually dead or not it seems that God can still communicate to us in a way that we can hear?

just a tad confusing

David Taylor
Dec 22nd 2008, 07:43 PM
I can agree that it introduced physical death...yes, but Adam and Eve did not die a physical death in the Garden. In Genesis 3:7, I read this, which tells me that they did not die a physical death:

"And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves (aprons)"...(which in Hebrew means coverings).

What this tells me is that after they had eaten from the tree, they discovered sin...which was something that they did not know. So they covered up the sin. If they died a physical death as some say...they never would have seen what sin was in the first place. Like I said before. God said in Genesis 2:17, that if they would eat from the tree...they would die on the day that they ate of it. Well...they did die on the day that they ate of the tree. A Spiritual Death....not a Physical Death.

And yes...it not only introduced a Spiritual Death...but according to the writings of Moses... a Spiritual Death actually happened in the Garden. And your scripture was perfect to prove that point.

God Bless

Dave

Actually, their physical death 'process' would have begun while still in the garden.

The moment that God cursed creation; and eternal life was removed from them....their cells began to die...one by one...until finally they both died a physical and nature death...albeit some years after leaving the garden.

BCF
Dec 22nd 2008, 08:24 PM
matthew94,


1. I'm not sure what your asking in your first quote. Are you asking where we find those specific words, or where we find the concept? I'm obviously talking about the concept. And I'd say Genesis 2.


Yeah...I'm talking about the concept. But where do you see that kind of concept in Genesis 2?


2. I do believe we can say they died, that day, physically. If we understand 'die' in a different sense than a 1 moment event. And that surely is allowable in the definition. It's like when we use the term 'saved.' Most think it refers to the one moment transition (justification). It can mean that. But it can also speak of the entire process of God redeeming us (it has past, present & future application). Adam and Eve died that day, physically, in the sense that they began to die.


I can see what you are saying here when you say that they began to die. We can find in scripture where Paul writes in 2nd Corinthians 15:29-34, this:

"Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? And why stand we in jeopardy every hour? I protest (or affirm) by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. If after the manner of men I have fought with the beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for tomorrow we die. Be not deceived: evil communications (or company) corrupt good manners (or habits). Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame."

Now....what is Paul dying to daily? It is sin. Paul as well as every Born again Christian dies daily to sin. But just b/c we die daily to sin....does not mean that we die physically. But let me ask you this? If one does not die to sin....as was the case with Adam and Eve....according to what Paul writes in 1st Corinthians, something does. Paul says that we should "Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God:"

The scripture plainly teaches in Genesis 2 before Adam and Eve sinned...that they did know the knowledge of God...why? b/c they walked with Him and talked with Him all the time. They did not know what sin was until they ate. Then they discovered sin, and what does the scripture say that they tried to do.....hide the sin from God in Genesis 3:7-8.

So did they begin to die after they ate from the tree and got kicked out of the Garden? Sure.....I can see them dying daily to sin.....just as we do.....but I can't see them dying in a physical sense. But when they ate from the tree...they had to die some way, and from what I can see....it had to be Spiritually.


We die b/c we aren't connected to the source of eternal life.

The only way to be connected to the source of eternal life is Spiritual. Jesus tells us so in John 3:6:

"That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of Spirit is Spirit"

There is no other way to be connected to eternal life but through the Holy Spirit of God.


You can't declare that God said they died spiritual in 2:17 and THEN claim that I am changing Scriptures around. Scripture doesn't make a point to define exactly what 'die' refers to there. It's open to interpretation.

I did not mean to accuse you of changing scripture around. If I did I apologize for saying so......please forgive me.

You are correct that scripture does not make a point to define what die means exactly in Genesis 2:17. But what the scripture does do is give a reference of scripture to go to which is Romans 5:12-21, here Paul writes this:

"Wherefore as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude (or likeness) of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. So if through the offence of one (or Adam) many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned: for the judgement was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one mas offence death reigned by one (or the one); much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence (or one false step) of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one (or one rightous act) the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one mans disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offence (or the sin) might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness until eternal life by Jesus Christ."

Through these words of Paul...it seems clear to me that in the Garden there was a Spiritual Death, and not a Physical one.

God Bless,

Dave

BCF
Dec 22nd 2008, 08:33 PM
Actually, their physical death 'process' would have begun while still in the garden.

The moment that God cursed creation; and eternal life was removed from them....their cells began to die...one by one...until finally they both died a physical and nature death...albeit some years after leaving the garden.

Although I can see that they would start dying daily to sin as Paul writes in 2nd Corinthians 15:29-34, and I have just wrote about in my last post. I do not believe that they started to die in a physical sense as to say that they died in body. Only God is suppose to control life and death on a physical sense, (although in todays world, man thinks that he is more powerful then God) so I don't believe that God controls life and death through a cell count. Besides....where would we find scripture to say that God does control life and death through a cell count?

God Bless,

Dave

BCF
Dec 22nd 2008, 09:49 PM
Hi reformedct, sorry it took me so long to respond....got tied up in scripture. Anyways, thanks for your comment.


it os also my personal belief that it was a sort of spiritual death

because before the sin man was unashamed and had perfect relationship with God

after he sins, he hides from God. His intimate relationship with God is marred and crooked now.


Agreed....


The only problem is that i dont think the bible explicitly states what type of death this was. obviously Adam died physically later on.

Well....I think it does....but I could be wrong. I mean....Paul talks about struggle with Spirit and Flesh in Romans 7. Paul also talks about the Spirit and the natural in 1st Corinthians 15:45-47, where he writes:

"And so it s written, the first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam (Jesus) was made a quickening (or life giving) spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy (or made of dust) the second man is the Lord from heaven."

Here Paul clearly states that Adam had a soul. In order for Adam to have a soul....he needed to have a spirit. The Spirit he had before he ate from the tree was sinless just like Jesus, b/c Adam knew no sin before he ate from the tree. But after he ate....he found sin....and something with Adam died. It had to be his spirit b/c he lived to be 900+ years after he ate from the tree.


and of course a day to the Lord is a thousand years so there is also the issue of translating the word "day"

What a day is to God I don't think is the issue. The issue is that God said to Adam that he would die as soon as he ate from the tree. And satan tempted Eve by telling her that she would not die. Satan does not care about getting our bodies....satan only cares about getting our spirits....just like God does.


just the term born again relates to spiritual birth, so what is the condition of the spirit before it is born again? dead, or just cold?

Since we are born into sin at birth and we are way to young to even begin to understand where we are at, at the time....let alone who God is. I would have to say that b/c of what Adam did in the Garden we are dead in spirit to God, until we come to the acceptance of Christ. Which is why Jesus said in John 3:6:

"That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of Spirit is Spirit"

God Bless,

Dave

Man-ofGod
Dec 22nd 2008, 11:37 PM
This is a topic that has started from another thread, that I have decided to make it's own thread, thanks to the suggestion from Trusting Follower. The thread is about the Death of Adam in the Garden. Was it a Physical Death...or was it a Spiritual Death. I say that it was a Spiritual Death, and to start things off I will say for this reason:

"Genesis 2:17, But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

In this verse we find God saying to Adam that if he ate from the tree....he would die in the day that he ate from it. The word die in Greek means apoleia...meaning, ruin or loss physical or Spiritual eternal. We all know that Adam did not die a physical death, b/c he went on to live 900+ years after eating from the tree.

Some say that Psalms 90:4, which says:

"For a thousand years in Your sight Are like yesterday when it passes by, Or as a watch in the night."

And 2Peter 3:8, which says:

"¶But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day."

Supports the fact....along with other scripture....that Adam died a Physical Death in the Garden.

I do not see that support in those two scriptures, which is the reason for the start of this thread. That should bring everyone up to date on this thread, so nobody gets lost, now we can all start our Study from here.

God Bless to you all,

Dave


I agree that they experienced what we are calling a spiritual death. Since the time they ate of the forbidden fruit to the day they physically died, they never seen God again face to face. They could no longer stand in his presence. To God, Adam and Eve and man were dead. It is only after grace and repentance and the resurrection, where we get our new bodies, are we alive again to God.

BCF
Dec 23rd 2008, 12:34 AM
Here's another thought on this topic.....as if we don't have enough to think and study about already.;):D

I had already made comment to some of this to reformedct earlier in one of my post. Anyway's....when I look at how Adam and Eve made this fall from Gods presense...what do I see? I see satan tempting them with a loaded sentence as slippery as ice. The writer Moses records it like this in Genesis:3:1-5:

Now the serpent was more subtil (or cunning) then any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he (satan) said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the Garden? And the woman said unto the serpent (satan), we may eat of the fruit of the trees of the Garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, least ye die. And the serpent (satan) said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods (meaning Gods), knowing good and evil."

Now....how slippery is that? I mean think about it. Put yourself in Eve's place. We can do that b/c we get tempted by this snake all the time. Eve knew that she was not suppose to eat from the tree in the middle of the Garden. She also knew that God said....that if she would....she would die. She knew it. We are not talking about a regular person like you and me here who is born into sin, and has to come to Christ in order to be redeemed from our sins. Noooooo, we are talking about two people who did not know sin. All they knew was God. And this snake in the grass convinced them to eat from a tree that God said would make them die. It makes you wonder what these two where thinking. Did they think that God decided to talk to them in the form of a snake....instead of the cool of the day? Did they not have a choice in the matter...b/c satan forced them to eat from the tree? I don't know. What makes us do the things that we know that we should not do?

It is for this encounter with satan that Adam and Eve had, that I don't believe that they could have died physically, and it had to be Spiritually that they died. Why? b/c I don't believe that satan is any more interested in our physical bodies, then what God is interested in them. I believe that satan is more interested in our Spirits....just like God is interested in our Spirits as well. Our bodies turn back to dust. They are no use to God, and if they are no use to God....they can't be any use to satan. Think about it......

God Bless,

Dave

reformedct
Dec 23rd 2008, 01:06 AM
Here's another thought on this topic.....as if we don't have enough to think and study about already.;):D

I had already made comment to some of this to reformedct earlier in one of my post. Anyway's....when I look at how Adam and Eve made this fall from Gods presense...what do I see? I see satan tempting them with a loaded sentence as slippery as ice. The writer Moses records it like this in Genesis:3:1-5:

Now the serpent was more subtil (or cunning) then any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he (satan) said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the Garden? And the woman said unto the serpent (satan), we may eat of the fruit of the trees of the Garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, least ye die. And the serpent (satan) said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods (meaning Gods), knowing good and evil."

Now....how slippery is that? I mean think about it. Put yourself in Eve's place. We can do that b/c we get tempted by this snake all the time. Eve knew that she was not suppose to eat from the tree in the middle of the Garden. She also knew that God said....that if she would....she would die. She knew it. We are not talking about a regular person like you and me here who is born into sin, and has to come to Christ in order to be redeemed from our sins. Noooooo, we are talking about two people who did not know sin. All they knew was God. And this snake in the grass convinced them to eat from a tree that God said would make them die. It makes you wonder what these two where thinking. Did they think that God decided to talk to them in the form of a snake....instead of the cool of the day? Did they not have a choice in the matter...b/c satan forced them to eat from the tree? I don't know. What makes us do the things that we know that we should not do?

It is for this encounter with satan that Adam and Eve had, that I don't believe that they could have died physically, and it had to be Spiritually that they died. Why? b/c I don't believe that satan is any more interested in our physical bodies, then what God is interested in them. I believe that satan is more interested in our Spirits....just like God is interested in our Spirits as well. Our bodies turn back to dust. They are no use to God, and if they are no use to God....they can't be any use to satan. Think about it......

God Bless,

Dave


like i have said before, i wish God would have videotaped the whole thing and put it on DVD for us but oh well lol

but i think this verse gives a strong clue:

that which is born of flesh is flesh, that of Spirit is Spirit
ye must be born again

so whatever our spiritual condition is before we are born again, isn't it less than "born?"

i dont think we are physically born and spirtually born of the Spirit at the same time?

so maybe we are not spiritually dead but somewhere inbetween spirtually dead and spirtually alive? (reffering to spirit before being born again)

BCF
Dec 23rd 2008, 01:29 AM
reformedct,


i dont think we are physically born and spirtually born of the Spirit at the same time?

I agree. I don't believe that we can be physically born and Spiritually Born either at the same time. For me to say that we could be...I would have to question why Jesus told Nicodemus (who was a religious leader at that time) to marvel not that Jesus told him that he needed to be born again.


so maybe we are not spiritually dead but somewhere in between spiritually dead and spiritually alive? (reffering to spirit before being born again)

I can't agree with this though...that would be like what the Dr. said to my family the day my father died. My father was killed in a truck accident about 25 years ago or more, and when my father took his last breath, the doc came into the waiting room where we all were sitting and said. I think David just died.:mad: I of coarse got upset with him and replied....YOU THINK!!!!!!:B WHAT DO YOU MEAN.......YOU THINK.:B:B:B EITHER YOU KNOW OR YOU DON'T KNOW.:confused

The doc then replied, well yea I know that David died.

And this guy went to collage to save lives:lol:
(No pun intended if there is anyone going to collage to be a Doctor.:)

Anyway, my point being....either we are born again or we are not. I don't think I can find anywhere in scripture where God has a middle of the road for those who are undecided.

God Bless,

Dave