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starlight777
Dec 22nd 2008, 05:55 PM
Some muslims asked me that if trinity is true then why moses and other OT prophets did not teach about trinity.So I want to discuss.How can I answer them?So please give me some verses from OT that support Holy trinity.
Thanks

keck553
Dec 22nd 2008, 05:58 PM
The Godhead is in the first Hebrew letter of the Aleph-Bet. It's also in the first line of Genesis 1:1. Send my your email in a PM, I'll send you a pdf about Messiah in Genesis (it would make for a really really long post).

keck553
Dec 22nd 2008, 06:09 PM
Aleph -

There is tremendouos significance in the the character א
This first Hebrew letter, representing one, is a silent letter, an Aleph. This letter is comprised of two other letters; vav and yod.

The pictograph of a Yod is an open cupped hand. A pointer used to read Torah is called a 'Yad' - a hand used to point to Torah.

The pictograph of Vav is a peg or a nail. Think about the message God is sending through the Alepf (remember Aleph-Tav is Alpha-Omega or beginning and the end. A Tav in ancient Hebrew looks like a crucifix.

Also, Vav represents the number 6 in Hebrew. It wasn't lost on the Jewish sages that the number 6 also represented man, who was created on the 6th day.

Gematria - The basic gematria for Aleph is one (echad) - obviously indicating the One and only God who is the Master of the Universe. If you add up the numerical value for all the parts of Aleph, (Yod+Yod+Vav), they add up to 28 - the same value for the Sacred Name YHVH, which indicates a link between God and the letter Aleph.

In Messianic terms, Aleph is a picture of Yeshua's (Jesus) intercession. Aleph represents Yeshua haMashiach (Jesus the Christ) as our intercessor and Kohen Gadol (High Priest). The two Yod's represent outstreached arms of hands connecting man to God (as they were stretched out on the cross). The diagonal Vav (nail) represents His sacrifice on our behalf. And since Yeshua is the Aleph-Tav (beginning and the end), the letter Aleph represents His divinity, and the Vav - being diagonal - His humility.

Aleph is a picture of the God-Man, as the One who is comprised of both the upper realm of heaven and the lower realm of the earth, connected by the humility of the human body. Aleph is a picture of the God-Man unity that is Jesus the Christ, "Who, being in the form of God - took upon Himself the form of a servant - as a man" (Phillipians 2:9-11).

In Revealation 22:13, Yeshua referes to Himself as the Aleph and the Tav, and thereby told us directly that the Hebrew Aleph-Bet would provide revelation about Him.

The structure of the Aleph is itself three-in-one. Just as there are three parts to Aleph, but Aleph is One (Echad), so there are three Persons to the Godhead, yet God is absolutely One. If you take the word "Aleph", you'll find the Genatria is "111" (Apeph = 1, Lamed = 30, Pey = 80).

An interesting side note - "Pey" means "house".

This is what Yeshua meant by bringing Torah to fullness - the unbelieving Jews should have recognised all these things, but their unbelief was a veil.

Joh 5:46"For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.

Romber
Dec 22nd 2008, 06:13 PM
Some muslims asked me that if trinity is true then why moses and other OT prophets did not teach about trinity.So I want to discuss.How can I answer them?So please give me some verses from OT that support Holy trinity.
Thanks

This is a logical fallacy in itself. Just because something is not mentioned does not mean it isn't believed in.

keck553
Dec 22nd 2008, 06:16 PM
This is a logical fallacy in itself. Just because something is not mentioned does not mean it isn't believed in.

It is mentioned. You just have to dig a little.

matthew94
Dec 22nd 2008, 06:24 PM
Even if it is mentioned (underneath the surface), it is still generally true that many and/or most Jews probably had no real concept of the Trinity prior to the 1st century.

Rather than trying to point out possible references to the Trinity in the Old Testament, I would be more inclined to answer the question in a straight-forward manner. God reveals Himself to us over a process of time. His fullest revelation wasn't until after thousands of years of human history, when He revealed Himself in Christ. As to WHY God reveals Himself as a process (instead of all at once), I suppose that is His perogative. I'd guess that He knows that we are incapable of handling very much at once. We learn in process, over time.

Of course, once something has been revealed (like the Trinity was made clearer in the 1st century), it is often possible to look back at prior history and see things (like the Old Testament) in a fresh sense. So much so that we wonder (and 1st century Jewish-Christians may have wondered), how did we miss that?!?

keck553
Dec 22nd 2008, 06:27 PM
Even if it is mentioned (underneath the surface), it is still generally true that many and/or most Jews probably had no real concept of the Trinity prior to the 1st century.

Rather than trying to point out possible references to the Trinity in the Old Testament, I would be more inclined to answer the question in a straight-forward manner. God reveals Himself to us over a process of time. His fullest revelation wasn't until after thousands of years of human history, when He revealed Himself in Christ. As to WHY God reveals Himself as a process (instead of all at once), I suppose that is His perogative. I'd guess that He knows that we are incapable of handling very much at once. We learn in process, over time.

Of course, once something has been revealed (like the Trinity was made clearer in the 1st century), it is often possible to look back at prior history and see things (like the Old Testament) in a fresh sense. So much so that we wonder (and 1st century Jewish-Christians may have wondered), how did we miss that?!?

This is true. Faith and revelation always come before 'proof.' It's the relationship with God that brings these 'hidden' things to life. Without faith and the indwelt Holy Spirit, there is no flavor.

For example the rabbinical interpretation of Aleph is as follows:

The upper Yod (the open hand) represents the hidden aspect of YHVH, and the lower Yod represents the revelation of YHVH to mankind. The Vav (nail) connects the two realms. The Vav is diagonal becaue it represents the humbled in the face of God's mystery and His revelation.

When I read that, I knew it was missing a most important element.

Compare with the fulfilled revelation:

Aleph is a picture of Yeshua's (Jesus) intercession. Aleph represents Yeshua haMashiach as our intercessor and High Priest. The two Yod's represent outstreached arms of hands connecting man to God (as they were stretched out on the cross). The diagonal Vav (nail) represents His sacrifice on our behalf. And since Yeshua is the Aleph-Tav (beginning and the end), the letter Aleph represents His divinity, and the Vav - being diagonal - His humility.

theBelovedDisciple
Dec 22nd 2008, 07:11 PM
Genesis gives the reader the first glimpse at the Trinity.. look at this verse....
--------------------------------------------------------------------
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Genesis 1:26
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Interesting Piece of Scripture that was God breathed and Penned by those who were under the influence of the Holy Ghost...

kenrank
Dec 22nd 2008, 07:20 PM
Even if it is mentioned (underneath the surface), it is still generally true that many and/or most Jews probably had no real concept of the Trinity prior to the 1st century.

Rather than trying to point out possible references to the Trinity in the Old Testament, I would be more inclined to answer the question in a straight-forward manner. God reveals Himself to us over a process of time. His fullest revelation wasn't until after thousands of years of human history, when He revealed Himself in Christ. As to WHY God reveals Himself as a process (instead of all at once), I suppose that is His perogative. I'd guess that He knows that we are incapable of handling very much at once. We learn in process, over time.

Of course, once something has been revealed (like the Trinity was made clearer in the 1st century), it is often possible to look back at prior history and see things (like the Old Testament) in a fresh sense. So much so that we wonder (and 1st century Jewish-Christians may have wondered), how did we miss that?!?

I understand that mindset, it was the same one I used to use. Trouble is, it won't change how THEY view scripture. Let me give you an example...a JW comes to your house and using his bible, he tears apart what you believe. You respond by quoting your KJV or your NIV, whatever you use, and round and round you go. When you both grow weary, he leaves and nothing has been gained by him or you. BUT...you instead take HIS bible and go to Revelation 1:8 and ask who the First and Last is, to which he says "Jehovah." You then go to 1:17-18 and show him that the "First and Last" is he who lived but was dead...and is now alive forevermore. You then ask, "when did Jehovah die." For the first time in his JW life, his belief has been challenged and that BY his own bible. Now HE asks the question and now YOU have the chance to answer. But you have to break through first.

Talking to a Muslim from a NT perspective...even though WE understand you can't have a NT without the OT...will gain no traction. But if you can use a little of their language and some OT passages to make your point...whatever it is, you have a better chance to break through.

Rarely will an arguement over scripture produce fruit. One's paradigm has to be altered, the way they see scripture altered, in order to gain in regards to sharing knowledge.

Peace.
Ken

Emanate
Dec 22nd 2008, 07:24 PM
There is no mention of the trinity in the OT. There is mention of a unity, but no specific mention of 3.

matthew94
Dec 22nd 2008, 07:37 PM
I understand that mindset, it was the same one I used to use. Trouble is, it won't change how THEY view scripture. Let me give you an example...a JW comes to your house and using his bible, he tears apart what you believe. You respond by quoting your KJV or your NIV, whatever you use, and round and round you go. When you both grow weary, he leaves and nothing has been gained by him or you. BUT...you instead take HIS bible and go to Revelation 1:8 and ask who the First and Last is, to which he says "Jehovah." You then go to 1:17-18 and show him that the "First and Last" is he who lived but was dead...and is now alive forevermore. You then ask, "when did Jehovah die." For the first time in his JW life, his belief has been challenged and that BY his own bible. Now HE asks the question and now YOU have the chance to answer. But you have to break through first.

Talking to a Muslim from a NT perspective...even though WE understand you can't have a NT without the OT...will gain no traction. But if you can use a little of their language and some OT passages to make your point...whatever it is, you have a better chance to break through.

Rarely will an arguement over scripture produce fruit. One's paradigm has to be altered, the way they see scripture altered, in order to gain in regards to sharing knowledge.

Peace.
Ken

That's a good point. I'm not against using the OT to get the conversation started. It's probably even necessary in contexts like the one you described. I think we'd both agree that, ultimately, the conversation has to get to Christ and how He changes everything, and helps us to understand truth, and brings truth to light.

In Christ,
matthew

David Taylor
Dec 22nd 2008, 07:41 PM
There is no mention of the trinity in the OT. There is mention of a unity, but no specific mention of 3.

There is no verse the specifically spells out all three together as being God; and uses words like 'trinity' or 'triune' to name them.

However, there are verses in the O.T. that specifically tell us the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Spirit is God.

Knowing how much that the O.T. tells us God is one; and there is no other God except Him; it is pretty simply to see how the faithful can find the trinity in the OT; especially in the fuller light as given in the N.T.

keck553
Dec 22nd 2008, 07:57 PM
There is no verse the specifically spells out all three together as being God; and uses words like 'trinity' or 'triune' to name them.

However, there are verses in the O.T. that specifically tell us the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Spirit is God.

Knowing how much that the O.T. tells us God is one; and there is no other God except Him; it is pretty simply to see how the faithful can find the trinity in the OT; especially in the fuller light as given in the N.T.

This is all true. But there are some issues here.

God says He is "Echad", (Hebrew for one). God says when a couple get married, they are "echad" (Gen 2:24). So here you have two who become one, according to God anyway, so this type of plurality of "echad" is no stranger to a reader of the Tenach.

Also, we have the tetragammon, Elohim (literally "Gods"). This information isn't lost on Jewish sages and modern rabbi's, they just tend to ignore the implications - for example usually when Isaiah 53 is brought up to an orthodox rabbi, he won't discuss it. He'll simply either say "we don't believe in Jesus, so it doesn't matter" and end it right there or they will take the anti-missionary tact and tell you the character in Isaiah 53 is the nation of Israel.

It's all there. It's just a matter of inquiring of the LORD and learning the depth of the language(s) He choose to get His word out.

kenrank
Dec 22nd 2008, 09:31 PM
That's a good point. I'm not against using the OT to get the conversation started. It's probably even necessary in contexts like the one you described. I think we'd both agree that, ultimately, the conversation has to get to Christ and how He changes everything, and helps us to understand truth, and brings truth to light.

In Christ,
matthew

The weird thing is Matthew...and I know this will sound strange, Messiah might be the end of the conversation. In other words, once you help that person to see scripture through eyes OTHER than their own, THEN you have the opportunity to chat Messiah with them.

Look at the Law dead/ Law not dead threads. (This is just an example we can all relate to because we see it on these boards) The Law is dead folks see scripture through a dispensationalist pair of eyes, the Law is alive folks see it through a God never changes point of view. Who is right isn't my point...but, these two groups can argue scripture until they are blue in the face. Unless and until one stops long enough to see the point through the other person's perspective, arguing scripture is all they will EVER do. No headway will be made.

That is the same principle when talking to a JW, an Islamic, or ANY group that doesn't view scripture as you do. Real evangelizing begins when we understand this and then work on a person by person basis. One size doesn't fit all...know what I mean?

Peace.
Ken

Brother Mark
Dec 22nd 2008, 11:21 PM
The weird thing is Matthew...and I know this will sound strange, Messiah might be the end of the conversation. In other words, once you help that person to see scripture through eyes OTHER than their own, THEN you have the opportunity to chat Messiah with them.

Look at the Law dead/ Law not dead threads. (This is just an example we can all relate to because we see it on these boards) The Law is dead folks see scripture through a dispensationalist pair of eyes, the Law is alive folks see it through a God never changes point of view. Who is right isn't my point...but, these two groups can argue scripture until they are blue in the face. Unless and until one stops long enough to see the point through the other person's perspective, arguing scripture is all they will EVER do. No headway will be made.

That is the same principle when talking to a JW, an Islamic, or ANY group that doesn't view scripture as you do. Real evangelizing begins when we understand this and then work on a person by person basis. One size doesn't fit all...know what I mean?

Peace.
Ken

It's a miracle of God for anyone to come to the Lord. Using the OT to witness to a Jew or the JW bible to witness to the JW does little without the help of the Lord. More important than speaking to him from his religious point of view, is to hear God and to prophesy over him what the Lord says. Then he will say "God is here" because his heart has been revealed. The word of the Lord is sharp and can pierce even the hardest soul.

And oh, there are those of us that believe we are dead to the law that use the idea that God never changes too to make the point about living by the letter. But generally, we don't stay around long enough in those threads for the very point you make here. ;)

Grace and peace,

Mark

keck553
Dec 22nd 2008, 11:35 PM
The weird thing is Matthew...and I know this will sound strange, Messiah might be the end of the conversation. In other words, once you help that person to see scripture through eyes OTHER than their own, THEN you have the opportunity to chat Messiah with them.

Look at the Law dead/ Law not dead threads. (This is just an example we can all relate to because we see it on these boards) The Law is dead folks see scripture through a dispensationalist pair of eyes, the Law is alive folks see it through a God never changes point of view. Who is right isn't my point...but, these two groups can argue scripture until they are blue in the face. Unless and until one stops long enough to see the point through the other person's perspective, arguing scripture is all they will EVER do. No headway will be made.

That is the same principle when talking to a JW, an Islamic, or ANY group that doesn't view scripture as you do. Real evangelizing begins when we understand this and then work on a person by person basis. One size doesn't fit all...know what I mean?

Peace.
Ken

All we can do Ken is to sow seed, remain truthful and do our best not to profane God or His ways. Once we profess our faith, people watch our actions - in good times and in bad times. How we respond to God in all these circumstances is a witness to Him. The Jew I told you about who came to Yeshua after 79 years noticed this witness in the congregation she was attending.

And yes, people do know when we are 'faking it.' So it's not enough for me to follow it - I have to live it, but not in a way that condemns, belittles or judges - and that is a learned process full of pitfalls and temptations to be self righteous. And it doesn't get any easier or better. But it has to be as much a part of my life as drinking water. I don't know any other way to be a witness except to trust Him.

kenrank
Dec 23rd 2008, 02:42 AM
All we can do Ken is to sow seed, remain truthful and do our best not to profane God or His ways. Once we profess our faith, people watch our actions - in good times and in bad times. How we respond to God in all these circumstances is a witness to Him. The Jew I told you about who came to Yeshua after 79 years noticed this witness in the congregation she was attending.

And yes, people do know when we are 'faking it.' So it's not enough for me to follow it - I have to live it, but not in a way that condemns, belittles or judges - and that is a learned process full of pitfalls and temptations to be self righteous. And it doesn't get any easier or better. But it has to be as much a part of my life as drinking water. I don't know any other way to be a witness except to trust Him.

Just to make sure I am being clear, I am not suggesting in any way we sugarcoat any truth, or refrain from a truth to be PC. (I HATE PC!) I am just saying that in order to be a good seed spreader, one must understand the quality of the ground they walk on before dropping seeds. Sometimes they fall on clay and get washed away.

Some folks will throw their seed anywhere, hoping some will sprout. I prefer to prayerfully drop seed onto ground ready to accept the seed. (hear)

Peace.
Ken

kenrank
Dec 23rd 2008, 02:45 AM
It's a miracle of God for anyone to come to the Lord. Using the OT to witness to a Jew or the JW bible to witness to the JW does little without the help of the Lord. More important than speaking to him from his religious point of view, is to hear God and to prophesy over him what the Lord says. Then he will say "God is here" because his heart has been revealed. The word of the Lord is sharp and can pierce even the hardest soul.

And oh, there are those of us that believe we are dead to the law that use the idea that God never changes too to make the point about living by the letter. But generally, we don't stay around long enough in those threads for the very point you make here. ;)

Grace and peace,

Mark

No doubt on the Lord...he draws who he wills, we have to prayerfully walk in his will so as to be used in a way that will edify another.

As for the Law thing...I wasn't suggesting you think God changes...you simply see an end to an era where I do not. However, I used that example ONLY because we have had recent threads on the topic. So being fresh in the mind, I thought it would properly paint the picture I was trying to convey. Please don't read into it anymore than that Mark!

Peace.
Ken

starlight777
Dec 23rd 2008, 05:18 AM
The Godhead is in the first Hebrew letter of the Aleph-Bet. It's also in the first line of Genesis 1:1. Send my your email in a PM, I'll send you a pdf about Messiah in Genesis (it would make for a really really long post).
hello,I have sent you my mail address via PM.Please check your in box.God bless:)

starlight777
Dec 23rd 2008, 05:47 AM
Dear friends,Muslims or other people have a weapon and that is the trinity in OT.So some direct verses from OT will be helpful.We know trinity from NT and we believe it,but NT is Just our scripture so others will not accept NT specially muslims.And if we can not easily answer them then lots of people will lose the way because trinity concept is not easy to understand.But thank you all for this useful discussion.But still I want some reference From OT(OT verses),or some very strong logic,so I can face them.And in OT we read that God is saying US,WE etc.But In Koran muslims' God also use those royal plural.like we created man or etc etc.But still they do not believe trinity because perhaps royal plurals can use the supreme being alone.they say that also a monarch can use them but monarch is one,not 3 in one.So should I tell them that those royal plurals are the symbole of trinity;that they also read about it in their book but uncosciously do not believe?It is not easy to face muslims.

Brother Mark
Dec 23rd 2008, 05:58 AM
Isaiah 6:9 (or is it 9:6) is an interesting verse, where a son is called "mighty God and everlasting Father".

But Muslims in general do not accept the OT either. We can reason with them with our minds if we are led by the Spirit to do so. But it is very important to hear God and to say to them what God says to say.

If you are looking for a physical example, I like to use water. For instance, look at all the water in the earth as one. It's all water. But is it ice? Or vapor? Or liquid? At any given time, all three can be found at once and often in the same areas. Yet, the three are one but distinct and different.

As for verses, Abraham, the servant and Isaac can serve as an example. When God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, he sent 3 to speak with Abraham. That's interesting. Throughout the OT the Spirit of God is mentioned as is God the Father. David prophesied about the Son, as did many of the other prophets.

Ta-An
Dec 23rd 2008, 06:54 AM
Aleph -

There is tremendouos significance in the the character א
This first Hebrew letter, representing one, is a silent letter, an Aleph. This letter is comprised of two other letters; vav and yod.

The pictograph of a Yod is an open cupped hand. A kaff is a cupped hand, yud, is the hand, as in forearm.;) the part through which the nail was driven
The two Yod's represent outstreached arms of hands like this ;).... to this I agree






An interesting side note - "Pey" means "house". pey means mouth ;) ....... Lk 4:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

Thank you for this, but one needs to make sure that what you write is true :)

Ta-An
Dec 23rd 2008, 07:07 AM
Also, we have the tetragammon, Elohim (literally "Gods").. Elohim is not a "tetragammon," ;)


The Hebrew Tetragrammaton representing the name of G_d is YHVH.
Elohim, indeed is the plural form of Eloah, which means a god, thus singular.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning Elohim created the heavens and the earth.

Thus a plural concept singular in meaning

Emanate
Dec 23rd 2008, 03:07 PM
Aleph -

There is tremendouos significance in the the character א
This first Hebrew letter, representing one, is a silent letter, an Aleph. This letter is comprised of two other letters; vav and yod.

The pictograph of a Yod is an open cupped hand. A pointer used to read Torah is called a 'Yad' - a hand used to point to Torah.

The pictograph of Vav is a peg or a nail. Think about the message God is sending through the Alepf (remember Aleph-Tav is Alpha-Omega or beginning and the end. A Tav in ancient Hebrew looks like a crucifix.

Also, Vav represents the number 6 in Hebrew. It wasn't lost on the Jewish sages that the number 6 also represented man, who was created on the 6th day.

Gematria - The basic gematria for Aleph is one (echad) - obviously indicating the One and only God who is the Master of the Universe. If you add up the numerical value for all the parts of Aleph, (Yod+Yod+Vav), they add up to 28 - the same value for the Sacred Name YHVH, which indicates a link between God and the letter Aleph.

In Messianic terms, Aleph is a picture of Yeshua's (Jesus) intercession. Aleph represents Yeshua haMashiach (Jesus the Christ) as our intercessor and Kohen Gadol (High Priest). The two Yod's represent outstreached arms of hands connecting man to God (as they were stretched out on the cross). The diagonal Vav (nail) represents His sacrifice on our behalf. And since Yeshua is the Aleph-Tav (beginning and the end), the letter Aleph represents His divinity, and the Vav - being diagonal - His humility.

Aleph is a picture of the God-Man, as the One who is comprised of both the upper realm of heaven and the lower realm of the earth, connected by the humility of the human body. Aleph is a picture of the God-Man unity that is Jesus the Christ, "Who, being in the form of God - took upon Himself the form of a servant - as a man" (Phillipians 2:9-11).

In Revealation 22:13, Yeshua referes to Himself as the Aleph and the Tav, and thereby told us directly that the Hebrew Aleph-Bet would provide revelation about Him.

The structure of the Aleph is itself three-in-one. Just as there are three parts to Aleph, but Aleph is One (Echad), so there are three Persons to the Godhead, yet God is absolutely One. If you take the word "Aleph", you'll find the Genatria is "111" (Apeph = 1, Lamed = 30, Pey = 80).

An interesting side note - "Pey" means "house".

This is what Yeshua meant by bringing Torah to fullness - the unbelieving Jews should have recognised all these things, but their unbelief was a veil.

Joh 5:46"For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.

Paleo-Hebrew - the language Genesis was originally written (the Tav is not a crucifix, but an X)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/83/Phoenician_taw.png/40px-Phoenician_taw.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Phoenician_taw.png)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleo_Hebrew

kenrank
Dec 23rd 2008, 03:57 PM
Elohim is not a "tetragammon," ;)


The Hebrew Tetragrammaton representing the name of G_d is YHVH.
Elohim, indeed is the plural form of Eloah, which means a god, thus singular.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning Elohim created the heavens and the earth.

Thus a plural concept singular in meaning

My congregation leader, and someone who speaks (but is still learning) Hebrew, shared with me recently that what makes Elohim plural isn't a simple s on the end of God....but that it takes on the meaning, "God of gods." The latter being what makes it plural.

I am not saying that is correct, most internet searched reveal Elohim=gods. But that seems to be the easy way out because one Hebrew word is not usually (accurately) translated into English as one word.

Peace,
Ken

keck553
Dec 23rd 2008, 05:02 PM
Just to make sure I am being clear, I am not suggesting in any way we sugarcoat any truth, or refrain from a truth to be PC. (I HATE PC!) I am just saying that in order to be a good seed spreader, one must understand the quality of the ground they walk on before dropping seeds. Sometimes they fall on clay and get washed away.

Some folks will throw their seed anywhere, hoping some will sprout. I prefer to prayerfully drop seed onto ground ready to accept the seed. (hear)

Peace.
Ken

From personal experience, I am convinced the Ruach haKodesh guides us into responding in a way that lifts up Yeshua and draws people to Him.

keck553
Dec 23rd 2008, 05:03 PM
Paleo-Hebrew - the language Genesis was originally written (the Tav is not a crucifix, but an X)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/83/Phoenician_taw.png/40px-Phoenician_taw.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Phoenician_taw.png)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleo_Hebrew

take a look at ben Yehuda's work Ken. You'll see both.

keck553
Dec 23rd 2008, 05:05 PM
Elohim is not a "tetragammon," ;)


The Hebrew Tetragrammaton representing the name of G_d is YHVH.
Elohim, indeed is the plural form of Eloah, which means a god, thus singular.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning Elohim created the heavens and the earth.

Thus a plural concept singular in meaning






You're correct. My bad usage. thanks.

....

keck553
Dec 23rd 2008, 05:38 PM
My congregation leader, and someone who speaks (but is still learning) Hebrew, shared with me recently that what makes Elohim plural isn't a simple s on the end of God....but that it takes on the meaning, "God of gods." The latter being what makes it plural.

I am not saying that is correct, most internet searched reveal Elohim=gods. But that seems to be the easy way out because one Hebrew word is not usually (accurately) translated into English as one word.

Peace,
Ken

You may have a point. "Adonai" is plural of "Adon", meaning "LORD, master or owner." Adon (in the Tenach) can refer to men and angels as well as the LORD GOD of Israel (exo 34:33).

Check out how Deut 10:17 defines "God of gods", "LORD of lords" -


Deu 10:17
כי יהוה אלהיכם הוא אלהי האלהים ואדני האדנים האל
הגדל הגבר והנורא אשׁר לא־ישׂא פנים ולא יקח שׁחד׃


Deu 10:17 For YHVH your God, He (is) the God of gods (Elohim elohim) , and the Lord of lords (Adonoy (my LORD)) adone (of lords) ; the great, the mighty, the fearful God who does not lift up faces, nor take a bribe.


Note the Hebrew says Elohim (plural) elohim - Gods (plural) of gods (Not "Eloah elohim - God of gods.


"Gods of gods" is "Elohim elohim."


This construes the Name as an 'emphatic plural' in the sense of 'plural of majesty'. Over 300 times in the Tenach the plural form is used with a singular possesive ending, and always refers to God.


I don't understand the total depth of this, and my knowledge of Hebrew not so deep in many areas - so I'm leaving any conclusions open as I continue my studies in prayer. The revelation of Yeshua as God has me looking all over the place for Him, and I've found His character, teaching, or some manifestation of Him in every book. A deeper look would no doubt reveal Him even further.

Ta-An
Dec 23rd 2008, 06:17 PM
....the Tav is not a crucifix, but an X

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/83/Phoenician_taw.png/40px-Phoenician_taw.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Phoenician_taw.png)

OR said differently...... The Tav is not a crucifix but a cross ;)

Ta-An
Dec 23rd 2008, 06:31 PM
...... because one Hebrew word is not usually (accurately) translated into English as one word.
I know that Ken, I am also a Hebrew scholar ;)

starlight777
Dec 23rd 2008, 09:29 PM
Isaiah 6:9 (or is it 9:6) is an interesting verse, where a son is called "mighty God and everlasting Father".

But Muslims in general do not accept the OT either. We can reason with them with our minds if we are led by the Spirit to do so. But it is very important to hear God and to say to them what God says to say.

If you are looking for a physical example, I like to use water. For instance, look at all the water in the earth as one. It's all water. But is it ice? Or vapor? Or liquid? At any given time, all three can be found at once and often in the same areas. Yet, the three are one but distinct and different.

As for verses, Abraham, the servant and Isaac can serve as an example. When God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, he sent 3 to speak with Abraham. That's interesting. Throughout the OT the Spirit of God is mentioned as is God the Father. David prophesied about the Son, as did many of the other prophets.
Well brother mark thank you for your explanation with water.I will use this logic.You are correct, it will be strong logic but still they will want direct evidence.this water concept is like Like the sun,sun light and warmth of sun.I did explain trinity with sun.then they mocked me and said that then trinity is a cup of tea=tea leafs+water+milk+teapot.But they explained that everything is different matter but you can not drink tea without tea pot and if you want to make tea then you must need water.though milk is not important always.So I guess that you and others gave the very good explanation,but the heretics(muslims) will still argue!I am too much upset with their tea theory.

PS.they also deny OT as altered scripture but they use it against us sometimes

keck553
Dec 23rd 2008, 09:42 PM
I know that Ken, I am also a Hebrew scholar ;)

So what do you make of 'echad'? In Genesis God says when a man marries a woman, they become one 'echad' flesh. Does that not establish plurality?

Can't that infer the same pluraitly when He speaks of Himself as 'echad' in the She'ma? Isn't this how the three manifestations the LORD choose to reveal to us are One?

I'm just asking your thoughts about this; I don't know the answer. It's just something I was thinking about.

Brother Mark
Dec 23rd 2008, 09:45 PM
Well brother mark thank you for your explanation with water.I will use this logic.You are correct, it will be strong logic but still they will want direct evidence.this water concept is like Like the sun,sun light and warmth of sun.I did explain trinity with sun.then they mocked me and said that then trinity is a cup of tea=tea leafs+water+milk+teapot.But they explained that everything is different matter but you can not drink tea without tea pot and if you want to make tea then you must need water.though milk is not important always.So I guess that you and others gave the very good explanation,but the heretics(muslims) will still argue!I am too much upset with their tea theory.

PS.they also deny OT as altered scripture but they use it against us sometimes

Brother, would you be mad at a blind man that stumbles over a block in the road? These folks are blinded by the evil one. Only God, through the work of the Spirit can open their eyes, then they will understand. Speak to them from your spirit! Listen to God and say what he says. Perhaps, one of them will begin to see.

Emanate
Dec 23rd 2008, 10:01 PM
So what do you make of 'echad'? In Genesis God says when a man marries a woman, they become one 'echad' flesh. Does that not establish plurality?

Can't that infer the same pluraitly when He speaks of Himself as 'echad' in the She'ma? Isn't this how the three manifestations the LORD choose to reveal to us are One?

I'm just asking your thoughts about this; I don't know the answer. It's just something I was thinking about.


In the case of man and woman, I do not think they become three.

keck553
Dec 23rd 2008, 10:47 PM
In the case of man and woman, I do not think they become three.

LOL. Where two are gathered....

anyway, I wasn't referring to the nunber but the plurality.

Emanate
Dec 23rd 2008, 11:09 PM
LOL. Where two are gathered....

anyway, I wasn't referring to the nunber but the plurality.


I know, brother. I was just foolin

starlight777
Dec 23rd 2008, 11:34 PM
Brother, would you be mad at a blind man that stumbles over a block in the road? These folks are blinded by the evil one. Only God, through the work of the Spirit can open their eyes, then they will understand. Speak to them from your spirit! Listen to God and say what he says. Perhaps, one of them will begin to see.
Well brother,I will try my best to explain them.But I am doubtful about my success,because they do not want to hear,they only want to say.sometimes i pity to those men who even do not want to hear the words of God.I know many blunders of their book but I never have had the courage to show them because they have no religious tolerance you know.but I will try my best to answer them about holy trinity,but only Jesus knows,what will be happen!!Anyway thank you and God bless you:).

Zack702
Dec 24th 2008, 10:15 AM
Some muslims asked me that if trinity is true then why moses and other OT prophets did not teach about trinity.So I want to discuss.How can I answer them?So please give me some verses from OT that support Holy trinity.
Thanks

God is allmighty and just.
Man is unjust and requires a spiritual baptism and purifying else how can we dwell with God?

The OT is to complicated to get into a scripture war with other religions who have rewritten its concepts. If you want to give them a passage to read perhaps proverbs 30 might be intriguing to them. Also they should consider that the holy spirit was with Abraham and Isaac. And this is also a dipiction of a father, son and holyspirit union. But it really isn't necessary to get into it with them about the "trinity" God is God there is only one. Jesus is on the right side of God and all who believe and are accepted will be as well.

Proverbs 30

3I neither learned wisdom, nor have the knowledge of the holy. 4Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?


29There be three things which go well, yea, four are comely in going:
30A lion which is strongest among beasts, and turneth not away for any;
31A greyhound; an he goat also; and a king, against whom there is no rising up.
32If thou hast done foolishly in lifting up thyself, or if thou hast thought evil, lay thine hand upon thy mouth.
33Surely the churning of milk bringeth forth butter, and the wringing of the nose bringeth forth blood: so the forcing of wrath bringeth forth strife.

BroRog
Dec 24th 2008, 02:49 PM
There is no verse the specifically spells out all three together as being God; and uses words like 'trinity' or 'triune' to name them.

However, there are verses in the O.T. that specifically tell us the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Spirit is God.

Knowing how much that the O.T. tells us God is one; and there is no other God except Him; it is pretty simply to see how the faithful can find the trinity in the OT; especially in the fuller light as given in the N.T.

It's also simple to see how the faithful find the face of Mary in a piece of toast.

Mark F
Dec 24th 2008, 03:13 PM
Here is a good one, and as the OP was saying as talking to Muslims.

As it is also addressing the Harlot Babylon.

Isaiah 48:12-16

12 “ Listen to Me, O Jacob,
And Israel, My called:
I am He, I am the First,
I am also the Last.
13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth,
And My right hand has stretched out the heavens;
When I call to them,
They stand up together.
14 “ All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear!
Who among them has declared these things?
The LORD loves him;
He shall do His pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.
15 I, even I, have spoken;
Yes, I have called him,
I have brought him, and his way will prosper.
16 “ Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit
Have sent Me.”


The Lord God---Father
His Spirit----Holy Spirit
Me--third person--Son

Psalms Fan
Dec 24th 2008, 09:10 PM
Greetings everyone. This is post #1 for me here. What better topic to start things off with!

I don't believe that the idea of God being Triune is ever directly revealed in the OT. Since hindsight is 20/20, we can look back and see the references. I believe that the focus was pointing to Christ and that He is hidden everywhere in the OT.

The first one I'll mention is Genesis 1, but not the whole "let US make man in OUR image" deal. I believe that that is the majestic plural, the way a king or queen would refer to him or herself. Rather, I would point to the first few verses.

It starts with God creating the universe. Then it moves on to say that God's "spirit" (or "breath", or "wind") was brooding over the surface of the waters. Then it goes on to say "and God said..." I would call attention to the word "said". We know that Christ is the word of God.

I love Psalm 33:6 "By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, and by the breath of his mouth all their host."

There are three players in that verse - the LORD (YHVH), his "word", and his "breath" (same Hebrew word as "wind" and "spirit"). We know from the NT that the word is not "something", but rather "someone". We also know from the NT the same about the spirit.

Consider Psalm 24:
"Who shall ascend the hill of the LORD, and who shall stand in his holy place?"
Although this is a reference to entering the temple (as the rest of the psalm makes clear), bear in mind that Christ ascended a hill when he took his cross with him.

The same psalm later reads: "Lift up your heads, O gates, and be lifted up, O ancient doors, that the king of glory may come in." [referring to the gates and doors of the temple, also referring back to the verse in the psalm about who it is who would enter the holy place]

So far we know that someone will stand in the holy place, and that it is the king of glory. It goes on to say:
"Who is this king of glory? The LORD, strong and mighty; the LORD, mighty in battle"

It then asks the same question again, and gives this answer:
"The LORD of hosts, He is the king of glory"

Basically, this Psalm teaches us that someone will ascend the LORD's hill and stand in the LORD's holy place, who will receive blessing and righteousness from the LORD. This person is none other than the LORD himself. The person doing the blessing and the one receiving the blessing are both God/the LORD.

Then we have Psalm 45:
"Your throne, O God is forever and ever...therefore God, your God, has anointed you..."

In this Psalm God anoints God. It teaches us that God is the God of God.

I could go on, but I'll (almost) stop there. As I said previously, I believe that main thing hidden in order to be revealed is the relationship between the Father and the Son and the person of the Son. That way we can know the Son, and that way we can know the Father. I think that there are fewer references to all three persons, but there are still some to be sure.

Ta-An
Dec 24th 2008, 10:30 PM
So what do you make of 'echad'? In Genesis God says when a man marries a woman, they become one 'echad' flesh. Does that not establish plurality?

Can't that infer the same pluraitly when He speaks of Himself as 'echad' in the She'ma? Isn't this how the three manifestations the LORD choose to reveal to us are One?

I'm just asking your thoughts about this; I don't know the answer. It's just something I was thinking about. You are right... the word 'echad' is used in both cases.

There is also another word "Yachad" as is used in Ps 133.... unity of brotherhood ;)

Ta-An
Dec 29th 2008, 09:11 AM
Another place where the word echad is used is in Gen11:6..... At the building of the Tower of Babel.... the correct translation would read.... And the LORD said: 'Behold, they are (is) one people, and they have all one language; and this is what they begin to do; and now nothing will be withholden from them

David Taylor
Dec 29th 2008, 02:37 PM
It's also simple to see how the faithful find the face of Mary in a piece of toast.

Is that before or after the jelly is creatively :oapplied?

keck553
Dec 29th 2008, 03:54 PM
You are right... the word 'echad' is used in both cases.

There is also another word "Yachad" as is used in Ps 133.... unity of brotherhood ;)

Thanks! You gave me something to study this week.

John27
Dec 30th 2008, 05:56 AM
Problem with Islam, I own a Koran and I'm reading it to understand their way of thinking, but it seems they are trying to rewrite the Bible. I read many articles on this too, Muslims believe that Gabriel came to Mohammed and told the truths to him. They believe that man had altered God's teachings by incorrectly writting the Old Testament and new testament. Therefore the Koran retells much of the bible but changes events slightly. To believe in Islam, you need to believe that OT and NT are corrupted by man, and events were changed to favor certain agendas, and Jesus was not the messiah, and that one more prophet was comming and that man intentinally left mention of him out of the bible.

However that is not the case and Jesus is the Messiah and the Son of God and had poured the Holy spirit over the world.

I can't pinpoint references now, but throughout the OT the hints of a Holy Spirit, a Son of the Father, and God the father exist. ALso all the mention of the messiah throughout OT.

Next I find it uterely amazing that Jesus's life was so perfectly fitted in the path the Old Testament laid out for the Messiah. It is amazing that things Jesus could never control himself like his birth, the move to Eqypt, the beloning to Nazareth all were perfectly in line with the teachings about the messiah before Jesus was old enough to control his own actions. Therefore I have no doubt in my mind that Jesus is the messiah.

I was told if you read the Gospel according to John then Hebrews and then go back and read the Old Testament, you will find Jesus in places you would never have thought of if you read the Old testament alone.

mdo757
Dec 30th 2008, 12:38 PM
Even if it is mentioned (underneath the surface), it is still generally true that many and/or most Jews probably had no real concept of the Trinity prior to the 1st century.

Rather than trying to point out possible references to the Trinity in the Old Testament, I would be more inclined to answer the question in a straight-forward manner. God reveals Himself to us over a process of time. His fullest revelation wasn't until after thousands of years of human history, when He revealed Himself in Christ. As to WHY God reveals Himself as a process (instead of all at once), I suppose that is His perogative. I'd guess that He knows that we are incapable of handling very much at once. We learn in process, over time.

Of course, once something has been revealed (like the Trinity was made clearer in the 1st century), it is often possible to look back at prior history and see things (like the Old Testament) in a fresh sense. So much so that we wonder (and 1st century Jewish-Christians may have wondered), how did we miss that?!? It was during the first century that Hellenist and kabbalist Jews began teaching a trinity. Before then it was not a teaching of Judaism.

reformedct
Dec 30th 2008, 10:24 PM
Well brother mark thank you for your explanation with water.I will use this logic.You are correct, it will be strong logic but still they will want direct evidence.this water concept is like Like the sun,sun light and warmth of sun.I did explain trinity with sun.then they mocked me and said that then trinity is a cup of tea=tea leafs+water+milk+teapot.But they explained that everything is different matter but you can not drink tea without tea pot and if you want to make tea then you must need water.though milk is not important always.So I guess that you and others gave the very good explanation,but the heretics(muslims) will still argue!I am too much upset with their tea theory.

PS.they also deny OT as altered scripture but they use it against us sometimes

Thats funny because they get the core of their beliefs from the Old Testament and if its corrupt then that would lead us to question their beliefs, seeing that it comes from a corrupt document. What makes our Scriptures corrupt but theirs not??? our scripture was around for many years before mohammed came along waaaayyyy after with his "new" revelation.


The nation of Islam is born from the child of Abraham and Hagar. That child was not the child of promise and God prophesied that the boy would be a wild man. The whole nation of Islam is under this boy and claim they are the chosen ones of God. The Bible clearly says they are not so of course they attack the authenticity of the Bible but whatever. The whole world is under the sway of the evil one. You can reason with these people day and night but unfortunately unless God opens their eyes and hearts they will be blinded by the evil one.

reformedct
Dec 30th 2008, 10:27 PM
Problem with Islam, I own a Koran and I'm reading it to understand their way of thinking, but it seems they are trying to rewrite the Bible. I read many articles on this too, Muslims believe that Gabriel came to Mohammed and told the truths to him. They believe that man had altered God's teachings by incorrectly writting the Old Testament and new testament. Therefore the Koran retells much of the bible but changes events slightly. To believe in Islam, you need to believe that OT and NT are corrupted by man, and events were changed to favor certain agendas, and Jesus was not the messiah, and that one more prophet was comming and that man intentinally left mention of him out of the bible.

However that is not the case and Jesus is the Messiah and the Son of God and had poured the Holy spirit over the world.

I can't pinpoint references now, but throughout the OT the hints of a Holy Spirit, a Son of the Father, and God the father exist. ALso all the mention of the messiah throughout OT.

Next I find it uterely amazing that Jesus's life was so perfectly fitted in the path the Old Testament laid out for the Messiah. It is amazing that things Jesus could never control himself like his birth, the move to Eqypt, the beloning to Nazareth all were perfectly in line with the teachings about the messiah before Jesus was old enough to control his own actions. Therefore I have no doubt in my mind that Jesus is the messiah.

I was told if you read the Gospel according to John then Hebrews and then go back and read the Old Testament, you will find Jesus in places you would never have thought of if you read the Old testament alone.

And just what evidence do they have that the OT and NT were falsley written?? why? just cuz Mohammed said so? just because a guy named Mohammed claims he saw and angel that claimed to be Gabriel?? The Bible clearly says if any man or angel come preaching a different Gospel let him be damned

Teke
Dec 30th 2008, 10:33 PM
Some muslims asked me that if trinity is true then why moses and other OT prophets did not teach about trinity.So I want to discuss.How can I answer them?So please give me some verses from OT that support Holy trinity.
Thanks

First know that you can not reveal the Trinity to them. You can however, share your Trinity theology with them from scripture. Muslims can be receptive to new truths if you are not forceful with them about their theology. We have to let God deal with that part.

I've talked with Muslims who were receptive while also being alert for attacks on them. The ones I've spoken with shared freely. They were surprised to find out things like Abraham having eight sons rather than only two, as their Quran only gives account of Ishmael and Isaac.

If you and the Muslims are dealing with the same scriptures from the OT then they will see what you show them and take it into consideration.

Christian Trinity theology is based on the Father, who is unbegotten, the Son, who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit which proceeds from the Father.
An example in Genesis can be used to illustrate this. Adam was unbegotten, Eve proceeded from Adam and Seth was begotten. In both illustrations, Trinity and mankind, they are of the same nature and substance, being indivisible and yet unique. :)

shepherdsword
Jan 1st 2009, 07:56 AM
Some muslims asked me that if trinity is true then why moses and other OT prophets did not teach about trinity.So I want to discuss.How can I answer them?So please give me some verses from OT that support Holy trinity.
Thanks

Hi starlight,
There are several ways to detect the Trinity in the Old Testament:

God is Plural yet one:
Elohim (el-o-heem'); is a plural Hebrew noun (gods) from the singular root EL (god). EEM is the plural ending in Hebrew is much like our ‘s’ in English. example: hashamim is the plural noun for heaven. In Genesis 1:1, it reads: “In the beginning God (Elohim, plural) created the Heavens (plural, hash’ ah mi eem) and the earth (singular noun)”.
The bible is full of these examples and it would take more paper than I care to use to make this point. If the name or title for God (Elohim) being in the plural were all we had to go on, we would be left with a plural understanding of the godhead.
The plural noun for God has been generally explained as a “plural of majesty” or “singular of intensity.” But all the related ancient near east cultures use the singular form "El" without a single case of “Elohim”--there are no ancient near east parallels to support this usage. If this plurality-in-unity was a simply initial revelation of the early scriptures, then there would be no better way to say it in the text than Elohim (plural) + one (unity). This initial revelation became fully realized when Jesus came and revealed the presence of the Godhead.
The plural “Elohim” found its ultimate revelation in the plural-unity within the Godhead (Trinity). The doctrine of he Trinity was not clearly seen till after the coming of the Messiah Jesus, where He proclaimed Himself as God. It was then that all the pieces fell together.

Echad
Let us begin by first understanding the Hebrew word for “one.”

Gen 2:24, “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they (plural) shall become one flesh (Hebrew echad).”

From creation to the cross and from the cross to eternity, God’s purpose in creating man is comprehended in unity and fellowship out of His image. Man and woman were created in His image and they were one flesh. When Adam lost God’s image through rebellion, he lost unity or oneness with God and all of creation came into conflict as a result. There is a common pattern from creation to today: from deception, to pride, to rebellion, to division and conflict.
Within the creation of man (including the woman) we see God creating, after His own image, a plurality and unity.

Genesis 1:5 “And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.” (echad).

This combination of evening and morning comprised the unity of the Day (echad). Again we have plurality and unity combined in the Hebrew word echad.

Ex 26:6, 11-“the fifty gold clasps are used to hold the curtains together so that the tent would be a unit.” (echad).

2 Samuel 2:25—“many soldiers made themselves into one group.” (echad).

Gen 34:16 –“the men of Shechem suggest intermarriage with Jacob's children in order to become one (echad) people.”

Num. 13:23
According to the view of the oneness sect, when the spies went over into the land of Canaan they brought back one grape (Heb. eschal echad.) That’s one big grape! Can anyone actually think it was a numerical statement? It means one cluster of grapes. In Ps.133:1, the brethren are to dwell together as one (in unity). 1 Sam.3:17. They are called one company. 1 Kings 7:42, one tribe. 1 Kings 11:13, Israel is called one nation.

god, plural, is one in unity (echad [ekh-awd]). The “SHEMA,” as it is called by the Jewish people, goes like this: “hear (sh’ma) Israel (yisrael) the Lord (Yaweh) our god (elohaynoo), the Lord (Yaweh) is one (echad).. Deut 6:4.

There are two words for “one” in Biblical Hebrew: “echad” (composite unity--one made up of parts) yachiyd (yaw-kheed). The shema is sometimes used by some Jewish people to assert a numerical value for the Godhead to disprove a “Christian” notion of plurality-in-unity. But this verse actually does the opposite. Moses could just as easily used yachiyd instead, which MIGHT have been of some support to their position. But Moses inspired by God uses “echad,” which lends itself to the plurality position. Consider some other passages in which “echad” is used.

A man and a woman who come together in marriage are said to become one [echad] flesh. There are two persons, a man and a woman, coming together in marriage, and the two become one. Obviously, they do not become an absolute one, for they retain their separate personages; however, there is definitely a unity there. No one is tempted two develop a doctrine of married couples where the wife is only the manifestation of the husband; we know better. The Godhead is of such a magnitude that it is inconceivable to completely know God, we can only accept what He wants to reveal through progressive revelation passing through the Old Testament and finally through the New Testament

An Excellent verse!
Here is a good verse where it shows that a "Jehovah" on earth rained fire from a "Jehovah" in heaven:
Gen 19:24

Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven;

In Hebrew both "Lord"(s) is "Jehovah" (s)

starlight777
Jan 2nd 2009, 12:03 PM
Hi starlight,
There are several ways to detect the Trinity in the Old Testament:

God is Plural yet one:
Elohim (el-o-heem'); is a plural Hebrew noun (gods) from the singular root EL (god). EEM is the plural ending in Hebrew is much like our ‘s’ in English. example: hashamim is the plural noun for heaven. In Genesis 1:1, it reads: “In the beginning God (Elohim, plural) created the Heavens (plural, hash’ ah mi eem) and the earth (singular noun)”.
The bible is full of these examples and it would take more paper than I care to use to make this point. If the name or title for God (Elohim) being in the plural were all we had to go on, we would be left with a plural understanding of the godhead.
The plural noun for God has been generally explained as a “plural of majesty” or “singular of intensity.” But all the related ancient near east cultures use the singular form "El" without a single case of “Elohim”--there are no ancient near east parallels to support this usage. If this plurality-in-unity was a simply initial revelation of the early scriptures, then there would be no better way to say it in the text than Elohim (plural) + one (unity). This initial revelation became fully realized when Jesus came and revealed the presence of the Godhead.
The plural “Elohim” found its ultimate revelation in the plural-unity within the Godhead (Trinity). The doctrine of he Trinity was not clearly seen till after the coming of the Messiah Jesus, where He proclaimed Himself as God. It was then that all the pieces fell together.

Echad
Let us begin by first understanding the Hebrew word for “one.”

Gen 2:24, “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they (plural) shall become one flesh (Hebrew echad).”

From creation to the cross and from the cross to eternity, God’s purpose in creating man is comprehended in unity and fellowship out of His image. Man and woman were created in His image and they were one flesh. When Adam lost God’s image through rebellion, he lost unity or oneness with God and all of creation came into conflict as a result. There is a common pattern from creation to today: from deception, to pride, to rebellion, to division and conflict.
Within the creation of man (including the woman) we see God creating, after His own image, a plurality and unity.

Genesis 1:5 “And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.” (echad).

This combination of evening and morning comprised the unity of the Day (echad). Again we have plurality and unity combined in the Hebrew word echad.

Ex 26:6, 11-“the fifty gold clasps are used to hold the curtains together so that the tent would be a unit.” (echad).

2 Samuel 2:25—“many soldiers made themselves into one group.” (echad).

Gen 34:16 –“the men of Shechem suggest intermarriage with Jacob's children in order to become one (echad) people.”

Num. 13:23
According to the view of the oneness sect, when the spies went over into the land of Canaan they brought back one grape (Heb. eschal echad.) That’s one big grape! Can anyone actually think it was a numerical statement? It means one cluster of grapes. In Ps.133:1, the brethren are to dwell together as one (in unity). 1 Sam.3:17. They are called one company. 1 Kings 7:42, one tribe. 1 Kings 11:13, Israel is called one nation.

god, plural, is one in unity (echad [ekh-awd]). The “SHEMA,” as it is called by the Jewish people, goes like this: “hear (sh’ma) Israel (yisrael) the Lord (Yaweh) our god (elohaynoo), the Lord (Yaweh) is one (echad).. Deut 6:4.

There are two words for “one” in Biblical Hebrew: “echad” (composite unity--one made up of parts) yachiyd (yaw-kheed). The shema is sometimes used by some Jewish people to assert a numerical value for the Godhead to disprove a “Christian” notion of plurality-in-unity. But this verse actually does the opposite. Moses could just as easily used yachiyd instead, which MIGHT have been of some support to their position. But Moses inspired by God uses “echad,” which lends itself to the plurality position. Consider some other passages in which “echad” is used.

A man and a woman who come together in marriage are said to become one [echad] flesh. There are two persons, a man and a woman, coming together in marriage, and the two become one. Obviously, they do not become an absolute one, for they retain their separate personages; however, there is definitely a unity there. No one is tempted two develop a doctrine of married couples where the wife is only the manifestation of the husband; we know better. The Godhead is of such a magnitude that it is inconceivable to completely know God, we can only accept what He wants to reveal through progressive revelation passing through the Old Testament and finally through the New Testament

An Excellent verse!
Here is a good verse where it shows that a "Jehovah" on earth rained fire from a "Jehovah" in heaven:
Gen 19:24

Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven;

In Hebrew both "Lord"(s) is "Jehovah" (s)
Thank you for this good explanation.But demon leaded people will not accept any types of explanation.They only can spread rumor.And you know,most of time they(muslims) spread hate and violence.Anyway we just can pray for them to Jesus.

shepherdsword
Jan 2nd 2009, 12:07 PM
Prayer is a powerful weapon to deal with situations like this
:help:us Jesus!