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reformedct
Dec 23rd 2008, 02:10 AM
ecclesiastes 9:7 Go, eat your bread with joy, and drink your wine with a merry heart, for God has already approved what you do. (ESV)

psalm 104:14-15:

14 You cause the grass to grow for the livestock
and plants for man to cultivate,
that he may bring forth food from the earth
15 and wine to gladden the heart of man,
oil to make his face shine
and bread to strengthen man's heart.(ESV)

Deuteronomy 14:25-26

25 then you shall turn it into money and bind up the money in your hand and go to the place that the Lord your God chooses 26 and spend the money for whatever you desire—oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the Lord your God and rejoice, you and your household. (ESV)

Numbers 6:1-2 (nazarite vow)

6:1 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, When either a man or a woman makes a special vow, the vow of a Nazirite, [1] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Numbers+6#f1) to separate himself to the Lord, 3 he shall separate himself from wine and strong drink. He shall drink no vinegar made from wine or strong drink and shall not drink any juice of grapes or eat grapes, fresh or dried.




FIRST OFF! this not a thread to argue whether wine means grape juice in the Bible. The bible calls grape juice grape juice and calls wine wine and calls strong drink strong drink

(some have argued that strong drink means something that is extemely sweet but i dont buy it lol)

obviously we are not to get drunk. we are not to be wine-os and drunkards. we are not to be alcholics

however we cannot say the Bible forbids wine

so does this mean that drinking alcoholic drink is ok for Christians?

please do not get into a cultural argument about Americans and how they drink and drive so therefore we Christians can't drink a glass of wine. There are obviously times and places and people we should not drink around for various reasons.


The question here is what are the rules for Christian drinking

There are at least two versus as i have stated that mention wine and a merry heart. We know that when people drink they laugh harder. So it seems as if a sort of "slight buzz" is not prohibited? a middle ground between stark drunk and drinking responsibly?

also we all know there are many verses that warn us about drinking:

wine is a brawler, and strong drink a mocker

so you do not have to start posting all the warnings we know about

also for those who think the wine in the bible is non-alcoholic

how could non-alcoholic wine and strong drink cause someone to be a mocker and a brawler? Last time i drank some welchs grape juice i was quite fine haha

but seriously, what are the biblical principles of alcoholic drink?


ALSO, PLEASE DO NOT RUN OFF AND START RAMBLING ABOUT YOUR PERSONAL PREJUDICES AGAINST THIS SUBJECT

this thread is made so that we can LOOK AT WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS, not your personal opinions

thank you!

PsPickle
Dec 23rd 2008, 02:16 AM
ecclesiastes 9:7 Go, eat your bread with joy, and drink your wine with a merry heart, for God has already approved what you do. (ESV)

psalm 104:14-15:

14 You cause the grass to grow for the livestock
and plants for man to cultivate,
that he may bring forth food from the earth
15 and wine to gladden the heart of man,
oil to make his face shine
and bread to strengthen man's heart.(ESV)

Deuteronomy 14:25-26

25 then you shall turn it into money and bind up the money in your hand and go to the place that the Lord your God chooses 26 and spend the money for whatever you desire—oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the Lord your God and rejoice, you and your household. (ESV)

Numbers 6:1-2 (nazarite vow)

6:1 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, When either a man or a woman makes a special vow, the vow of a Nazirite, [1] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Numbers+6#f1) to separate himself to the Lord, 3 he shall separate himself from wine and strong drink. He shall drink no vinegar made from wine or strong drink and shall not drink any juice of grapes or eat grapes, fresh or dried.




FIRST OFF! this not a thread to argue whether wine means grape juice in the Bible. The bible calls grape juice grape juice and calls wine wine and calls strong drink strong drink

(some have argued that strong drink means something that is extemely sweet but i dont buy it lol)

obviously we are not to get drunk. we are not to be wine-os and drunkards. we are not to be alcholics

however we cannot say the Bible forbids wine

so does this mean that drinking alcoholic drink is ok for Christians?

please do not get into a cultural argument about Americans and how they drink and drive so therefore we Christians can't drink a glass of wine. There are obviously times and places and people we should not drink around for various reasons.


The question here is what are the rules for Christian drinking

There are at least two versus as i have stated that mention wine and a merry heart. We know that when people drink they laugh harder. So it seems as if a sort of "slight buzz" is not prohibited? a middle ground between stark drunk and drinking responsibly?

also we all know there are many verses that warn us about drinking:

wine is a brawler, and strong drink a mocker

so you do not have to start posting all the warnings we know about

also for those who think the wine in the bible is non-alcoholic

how could non-alcoholic wine and strong drink cause someone to be a mocker and a brawler? Last time i drank some welchs grape juice i was quite fine haha

but seriously, what are the biblical principles of alcoholic drink?


ALSO, PLEASE DO NOT RUN OFF AND START RAMBLING ABOUT YOUR PERSONAL PREJUDICES AGAINST THIS SUBJECT

this thread is made so that we can LOOK AT WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS, not your personal opinions

thank you!


ok, I wont argue

godsgirl
Dec 23rd 2008, 02:19 AM
Considering the harm drinking has caused to our society-I do not see any reason why a Bible believing Christian would drink at all. Why bother? It isn't bringing you closer to Christ-only closer to the world and it's ways.

PsPickle
Dec 23rd 2008, 02:24 AM
Considering the harm drinking has caused to our society-I do not see any reason why a Bible believing Christian would drink at all. Why bother? It isn't bringing you closer to Christ-only closer to the world and it's ways.

I do not think an occasional drink, be it wine, beer, or stronger, can make me closer to the world. My heart is totally dedicated to God, what goes in my body does not defile me one bit.

Reading the word we see that its not drinking that is wrong. It's allowing drink to control us that is wrong.

If you judge me in drink or food or sabbath days, than you show a weak faith. I judge nobody in these things. I just pray they have strength to keep it controlled.

reformedct
Dec 23rd 2008, 02:32 AM
Considering the harm drinking has caused to our society-I do not see any reason why a Bible believing Christian would drink at all. Why bother? It isn't bringing you closer to Christ-only closer to the world and it's ways.

hello godsgirl,

im not saying we become alcoholics. what i am referring to is responsible drinking. For example going out to dinner at an Italian restaurant and ordering a glass of wine.

I may be wrong but i believe a glass of wine a day is actually good for your heart.

I am not talking about drinking as the world does, but biblical drinking. It is in our bible so it is fair that we discuss it and not ignore it.

just like sex, there is a right way and a wrong way to enjoy wine in the bible

my quest is to find the biblical instructions on drinking. i understand that the world perverts drinking into something you do to get a girl to sleep with you or to pass out. that is drunkenness and forbidden and i am not saying we should do that at all

reformedct
Dec 23rd 2008, 02:33 AM
juuuuuuusssttt igggggnnnnnnoooreee this random posst:confused lol

Brother Mark
Dec 23rd 2008, 02:36 AM
Considering the harm drinking has caused to our society-I do not see any reason why a Bible believing Christian would drink at all. Why bother? It isn't bringing you closer to Christ-only closer to the world and it's ways.

Tee-totaling "values" have also caused great harm. Eve said "do not touch" and it didn't help her overcome her flesh. That's part of what Colossians is getting at.

kenrank
Dec 23rd 2008, 02:37 AM
Considering the harm drinking has caused to our society-I do not see any reason why a Bible believing Christian would drink at all. Why bother? It isn't bringing you closer to Christ-only closer to the world and it's ways.

Man has created false gods...does that mean we should not bother to serve the true God? God gave us the fruit of the vine, and we are commanded to remain sober. When others do not act accordingly, God does not have to validate their actions...but it doesn't change the fact that he created the fruit of the vine.

Hold onto your socks...we actually use wine at our church services.

Peace.
Ken

mikebr
Dec 23rd 2008, 03:06 PM
Man has created false gods...does that mean we should not bother to serve the true God? God gave us the fruit of the vine, and we are commanded to remain sober. When others do not act accordingly, God does not have to validate their actions...but it doesn't change the fact that he created the fruit of the vine.

Hold onto your socks...we actually use wine at our church services.

Peace.
Ken


I see alcohol like I do many other things that Christians speak out against. We are afraid that something might control us rather than the Spirit of God be they demons, TV, sex, or music.

VerticalReality
Dec 23rd 2008, 03:15 PM
Matthew 15:11
Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.”

There is nothing about alcohol that defiles a man or gets him closer to the world. It's what is in a man's heart that brings about the disobedience that will defile. Folks who abuse alcohol do so because that is what is in their heart. Therefore, their actions show their heart condition. Those who love God will reject the lusts of the flesh, and they will obey God's will. God's will, however, does not say "Do not touch" or "Do not taste".

kenrank
Dec 23rd 2008, 04:18 PM
I see alcohol like I do many other things that Christians speak out against. We are afraid that something might control us rather than the Spirit of God be they demons, TV, sex, or music.

I won't get into it here Mike, but that is what the first few verses of Romans 14 is talking about. "Doubtful Disputations," disputations is a word dealing with judicial actions. So Paul was talking about doubtful laws created by man to deal with people doing things they feel convicted of. Some churches oulaw drinking any strong drink, wine included. But the bible doesn't EVER prohibit it, it simply says to be of a sober mind. So a glass of wine is not an issue, getting drunk is.

But what has happened is that a man, for example a pastor, will have a problem with alchol or see that problem in others. So he makes a law for that church that says to have none. That is a doubtful disputation. 300 people attend the church, one has a problem, so that privelege is taken away from the rest.

If we have Messiah centered in our hearts and minds, having a glass of wine is not an issue. We know we won't take it to the next level. If you lack that ability to be able to keep from taking it to that next level, you should abstain....but you shouldn't try to make everyone else live by your conviction. (by "your" I speak in general, not YOU)

Peace.
Ken

keck553
Dec 23rd 2008, 04:59 PM
Yeshua made the best wine ever tasted. and that from water. I can't wait!

uric3
Dec 23rd 2008, 05:15 PM
I think one thing to keep in mind is when the Bible refers to strong drink... what is it talking about.

Obviously as your mentioned we are not told thou shall not drink wine(alcoholic) period... and are warned about strong drink. So what was consider strong then? It was about 13 or so percent through the fermentation process which is all they had.

However today we have distillation which produces 50 proof 100 proof etc... I think if you are going to drink just keep in mind what the Bible states is strong drink and get the lower alcohol content drink to stay reasonable...

I'll state I don't think a Christian should drink at all due to 1st Peter 4:3 which states

"For the time past may suffice to have wrought the desire of the Gentiles, and to have walked in lasciviousness, lusts, winebibbings, revellings, carousings, and abominable idolatries: (ASV)"

Notice the term winebibbing which is defined by yourdictionary as "wine drinker" another translation states "social drinking" instead of winebibbing, or banquetings... which seems to point to having a few with the buddies is wrong...

I'm still studying on the winebibbing and social drink really need to study the greek on this verse... so I don't feel I have a firm foundation to stay its a sin to drink period... but I would advise agasist it.

Friend of I AM
Dec 23rd 2008, 05:19 PM
but seriously, what are the biblical principles of alcoholic drink?


Moderation. One specific verse comes to my mind.

1 Timothy 3:12
Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain.

reformedct
Dec 23rd 2008, 05:23 PM
I think one thing to keep in mind is when the Bible refers to strong drink... what is it talking about.

Obviously as your mentioned we are not told thou shall not drink wine(alcoholic) period... and are warned about strong drink. So what was consider strong then? It was about 13 or so percent through the fermentation process which is all they had.

However today we have distillation which produces 50 proof 100 proof etc... I think if you are going to drink just keep in mind what the Bible states is strong drink and get the lower alcohol content drink to stay reasonable...

I'll state I don't think a Christian should drink at all due to 1st Peter 4:3 which states

"For the time past may suffice to have wrought the desire of the Gentiles, and to have walked in lasciviousness, lusts, winebibbings, revellings, carousings, and abominable idolatries: (ASV)"

Notice the term winebibbing which is defined by yourdictionary as "wine drinker" another translation states "social drinking" instead of winebibbing, or banquetings... which seems to point to having a few with the buddies is wrong...

I'm still studying on the winebibbing and social drink really need to study the greek on this verse... so I don't feel I have a firm foundation to stay its a sin to drink period... but I would advise agasist it.


yes you made a good point there

the strong drinks of today are far higher in alcoholic content, and can get you pretty messed up after only a few "shots", so we must be very discerning. One thing i find interesting about that verse is that winebibbing is listed among abominible idolateries, lasciviousness, and lusts, so i think winebibbers might be something more serious than just social drinking. Perhaps you can look at that verse in other translations such as kjv or esv to see if it uses a different word

paul actually told timothy to drink some wine for medicinal use

VerticalReality
Dec 23rd 2008, 05:36 PM
I'll state I don't think a Christian should drink at all due to 1st Peter 4:3 which states

"For the time past may suffice to have wrought the desire of the Gentiles, and to have walked in lasciviousness, lusts, winebibbings, revellings, carousings, and abominable idolatries: (ASV)"

Notice the term winebibbing which is defined by yourdictionary as "wine drinker" another translation states "social drinking" instead of winebibbing, or banquetings... which seems to point to having a few with the buddies is wrong...

I'm still studying on the winebibbing and social drink really need to study the greek on this verse... so I don't feel I have a firm foundation to stay its a sin to drink period... but I would advise agasist it.

In the Greek the term is οἰνοφλυγία and it means drunkenness. It doesn't mean social drinking or just drinking alcohol.

keck553
Dec 23rd 2008, 05:47 PM
paul actually told timothy to drink some wine for medicinal use

He said it was good for the stomach (digestion??) This advice actually works.

Also, when Yeshua turned the water into wine, note what the guests said - "the host serves the best wine last" - notwwithstanding the messianic significance to this - usually the best wine was served first and the equivalent of ripple served last. Why? I don't think it takes any stretch of imagination to figure that out.

uric3
Dec 23rd 2008, 05:54 PM
In the Greek the term is οἰνοφλυγία and it means drunkenness. It doesn't mean social drinking or just drinking alcohol.

Interesting I wonder how the ASV and ESV can put winbbiber or social drinking... and the KJV banquetings... how many different words can be derived from one... and all mean different things! LOL

So is it set in stone that the only way to define οἰνοφλυγία is drunkness? I find that a bit questionable since various translations use other terms... I guess I'll have to dig deeper thanks for helping me get started.

uric3
Dec 23rd 2008, 05:55 PM
He said it was good for the stomach (digestion??) This advice actually works.

Also, when Yeshua turned the water into wine, note what the guests said - "the host serves the best wine last" - notwwithstanding the messianic significance to this - usually the best wine was served first and the equivalent of ripple served last. Why? I don't think it takes any stretch of imagination to figure that out.

Interesting point... I read something the other day about that passage that noted Christ had to have created non-alcoholic wine. I'll have to find it and post it later... intresting read.

VerticalReality
Dec 23rd 2008, 06:04 PM
Interesting I wonder how the ASV and ESV can put winbbiber or social drinking... and the KJV banquetings... how many different words can be derived from one... and all mean different things! LOL

So is it set in stone that the only way to define οἰνοφλυγία is drunkness? I find that a bit questionable since various translations use other terms... I guess I'll have to dig deeper thanks for helping me get started.

Drunkenness is the only definition that the Greek Lexicon gives. In the King James Version it is translated as "excess of wine", the New King James translates as "drunkenness", the NASB translates as "drunkenness", the NIV translates as "drunkenness".

Most all translations except the ones you have mentioned agree with the Greek Lexicon definition that it means drunkenness.

cindylou
Dec 23rd 2008, 06:10 PM
I drink and am not ashamed

VerticalReality
Dec 23rd 2008, 06:13 PM
I drink and am not ashamed

You have that freedom as long as self-control is maintained and drunkenness isn't taking place. As long as we can do these sort of things in moderation there shouldn't be a problem. However, many folks have difficulty only doing things in moderation. Additionally, some have difficulty judging what is moderation and what isn't. Therefore, much wisdom should be taken when taking part in such a thing. Whatever we do it should all be done unto the Lord.

ServantofTruth
Dec 23rd 2008, 06:18 PM
When we all raise a glass to our Lord and his One Church, on bible forums tomorrow night - i allow you to have whatever drink you wish. :spin: Please post in the Anything Goes forum on my 'drinks party' topic, if you can join us, what time it will be where you are and what drink you'll be having. SofTy.

kkeller
Dec 23rd 2008, 07:07 PM
ecclesiastes 9:7 Go, eat your bread with joy, and drink your wine with a merry heart, for God has already approved what you do. (ESV)

also for those who think the wine in the bible is non-alcoholic

how could non-alcoholic wine and strong drink cause someone to be a mocker and a brawler? Last time i drank some welchs grape juice i was quite fine haha

but seriously, what are the biblical principles of alcoholic drink?

I agree that wine of the bible could not be non-alcoholic, let us not forget this passage:

(Genesis 19:30-36)
30 Then Lot went up out of Zoar and dwelt in the mountains, and his two daughters were with him; for he was afraid to dwell in Zoar. And he and his two daughters dwelt in a cave. 31 Now the firstborn said to the younger, “Our father is old, and there is no man on the earth to come in to us as is the custom of all the earth. 32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve the lineage of our father.” 33 So they made their father drink wine that night. And the firstborn went in and lay with her father, and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose.
34 It happened on the next day that the firstborn said to the younger, “Indeed I lay with my father last night; let us make him drink wine tonight also, and you go in and lie with him, that we may preserve the lineage of our father.” 35 Then they made their father drink wine that night also. And the younger arose and lay with him, and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose.
36 Thus both the daughters of Lot were with child by their father.

I don't think Lot would have done this act in a sober state of mind!

We are the ones that corrupt the use of alcohol, wine, beer, strong drink, hence the reason there is such a big problem of alcoholism that has destroyed so many lives. Its important to understand how we as christians should control our alcohol drinking habits and not let it become a sin, just like every thing else we do in this sinful-fallen world.

mikebr
Dec 23rd 2008, 07:10 PM
Interesting point... I read something the other day about that passage that noted Christ had to have created non-alcoholic wine. I'll have to find it and post it later... intresting read.


Why would he create a non-alcoholic wine. That would be grape juice and why would you save the best grape juice for last. Its not like they had Welch's and Wal-Marts.

uric3
Dec 23rd 2008, 07:22 PM
Why would he create a non-alcoholic wine. That would be grape juice and why would you save the best grape juice for last. Its not like they had Welch's and Wal-Marts.

This was the article I was referring to earlier...
If Jesus made wine, is it okay for us to drink it?

Assumptions


We commonly assume at least three things when reading this passage in John.



The word “wine” always means an intoxicating beverage in the Bible.

The phrase “good wine” implies a more potent wine with higher alcohol content.

The phrase “well drunk” means the guest were intoxicated.

If these assumptions are correct consider what the result is. When the supply of alcohol ran out at the wedding, Jesus supplied an even more potent supply to a group of people who were already drunk!




Drunkenness is sinful. (Romans 13:13, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21)
Jesus supplied more potent alcohol to wedding guests who were already intoxicated. (John 2:1-10)
Therefore Jesus sinned by contributing to their drunkenness. (Habakkuk 2:15, 1 Timothy 5:22)



Did Jesus ever sin?


A closer look at the assumptions




The word “wine” always means an intoxicating beverage in the Bible.



Wine was a general word referring to grape juice regardless of whether it was fermented or not.



External



Anecreon who wrote in 500 BC said, “Only males tread the grapes setting free the wine”.

Cato (236 – 149 BC) referred to “hanging wine” (grape clusters).

Columella (4 – 70 AD) spoke of “unintoxicating wine”.

Ovid (43 BC – 18 AD) said, “And scarce can the grapes contain the wine they have within”.

Ibycus (6th Century BC) stated, “And newborn clusters teem with wine, beneath the shadowy foliage of the vine”.


Internal



…tread out wine in the presses... Isaiah 16:10

...new wine is found in the cluster... Isaiah 65:8

…vats shall overflow with new wine... Joel 2:24, Proverbs 3:10

...the vine said to them, “Should I cease my new wine...” Judges 9:13







The phrase “good wine” implies wine with higher alcohol content.



“Good” may have referred to the flavor, color, purity or other qualities of the beverage.

Pliny (23 – 73 AD) stated, “Wines are most beneficial when all their potency has been overcome by the strainer”. (Note: In biblical times, one method of preserving grape juice in an unfermented state was to strain out the pulp which contained gluten. Gluten promoted the fermentation process.)

Pliny is also attributed to say that good wine was destitute of spirit.

Other ancient writers (Pliny, Plutarch, Horace) mention that the best wine was that which was harmless or innocent.



The phrase “well drunk” means the guest were intoxicated.



Of the 22 bible translations listed below, none of them actually says the wedding guests were drunk. At most it indicates that they had had a lot to drink.





“drunk freely” (NASB)
“had their fill” (The Message)
“drunk freely” (Amplified Bible)
“had a lot to drink” (New Living Translation)
“well drunk” (KJV)
“drunk freely” (ESV)
“had plenty” (CEV)
“well drunk” (NKJV)
“been drinking awhile” (NCV)
“drunk well” (21st Century KJV)
“too much to drink“ (NIV)
“drunk freely” (ASV)
“drunk freely” (YLT)
“well drunk” (Darby)
“drunk freely” (Holman Christian Standard)
“too much to drink” (New International Reader's Version)
“be full-filled” (Wycliffe New Testament)
“had all they want” (Worldwide English)
“drunk freely” (LITV)
“drunk well” (MKJV)
“drunk freely” (RV)
“drinking awhile” (New American Bible)




The text states that the general practice of the bridegrooms in those days was to serve the inferior wine after everyone had been drinking a while. It is possible that “well drunk” may refer to the amount that had been consumed rather than the effects of the beverage.


Conclusion

We have to ask ourselves, “Which interpretation is more consistent with what we know about the character of Jesus and what the Bible teaches about drunkenness?”. Consider this...


Jesus never sinned. (Hebrews 4:15, 1 Peter 2:21-22)
Supplying alcohol for others to drink would constitute sharing in their sins (1 Timothy 5:22)
Therefore the wine that Jesus made was not alcoholic.

reformedct
Dec 23rd 2008, 07:37 PM
This was the article I was referring to earlier...
If Jesus made wine, is it okay for us to drink it?

Assumptions


We commonly assume at least three things when reading this passage in John.



The word “wine” always means an intoxicating beverage in the Bible.

The phrase “good wine” implies a more potent wine with higher alcohol content.

The phrase “well drunk” means the guest were intoxicated.

If these assumptions are correct consider what the result is. When the supply of alcohol ran out at the wedding, Jesus supplied an even more potent supply to a group of people who were already drunk!




Drunkenness is sinful. (Romans 13:13, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21)
Jesus supplied more potent alcohol to wedding guests who were already intoxicated. (John 2:1-10)
Therefore Jesus sinned by contributing to their drunkenness. (Habakkuk 2:15, 1 Timothy 5:22)



Did Jesus ever sin?


A closer look at the assumptions




The word “wine” always means an intoxicating beverage in the Bible.



Wine was a general word referring to grape juice regardless of whether it was fermented or not.



External



Anecreon who wrote in 500 BC said, “Only males tread the grapes setting free the wine”.

Cato (236 – 149 BC) referred to “hanging wine” (grape clusters).

Columella (4 – 70 AD) spoke of “unintoxicating wine”.

Ovid (43 BC – 18 AD) said, “And scarce can the grapes contain the wine they have within”.

Ibycus (6th Century BC) stated, “And newborn clusters teem with wine, beneath the shadowy foliage of the vine”.



Internal



…tread out wine in the presses... Isaiah 16:10

...new wine is found in the cluster... Isaiah 65:8

…vats shall overflow with new wine... Joel 2:24, Proverbs 3:10

...the vine said to them, “Should I cease my new wine...” Judges 9:13







The phrase “good wine” implies wine with higher alcohol content.



“Good” may have referred to the flavor, color, purity or other qualities of the beverage.

Pliny (23 – 73 AD) stated, “Wines are most beneficial when all their potency has been overcome by the strainer”. (Note: In biblical times, one method of preserving grape juice in an unfermented state was to strain out the pulp which contained gluten. Gluten promoted the fermentation process.)

Pliny is also attributed to say that good wine was destitute of spirit.

Other ancient writers (Pliny, Plutarch, Horace) mention that the best wine was that which was harmless or innocent.



The phrase “well drunk” means the guest were intoxicated.



Of the 22 bible translations listed below, none of them actually says the wedding guests were drunk. At most it indicates that they had had a lot to drink.





“drunk freely” (NASB)
“had their fill” (The Message)
“drunk freely” (Amplified Bible)
“had a lot to drink” (New Living Translation)
“well drunk” (KJV)
“drunk freely” (ESV)
“had plenty” (CEV)
“well drunk” (NKJV)
“been drinking awhile” (NCV)
“drunk well” (21st Century KJV)
“too much to drink“ (NIV)
“drunk freely” (ASV)
“drunk freely” (YLT)
“well drunk” (Darby)
“drunk freely” (Holman Christian Standard)
“too much to drink” (New International Reader's Version)
“be full-filled” (Wycliffe New Testament)
“had all they want” (Worldwide English)
“drunk freely” (LITV)
“drunk well” (MKJV)
“drunk freely” (RV)
“drinking awhile” (New American Bible)





The text states that the general practice of the bridegrooms in those days was to serve the inferior wine after everyone had been drinking a while. It is possible that “well drunk” may refer to the amount that had been consumed rather than the effects of the beverage.



Conclusion

We have to ask ourselves, “Which interpretation is more consistent with what we know about the character of Jesus and what the Bible teaches about drunkenness?”. Consider this...


Jesus never sinned. (Hebrews 4:15, 1 Peter 2:21-22)
Supplying alcohol for others to drink would constitute sharing in their sins (1 Timothy 5:22)
Therefore the wine that Jesus made was not alcoholic.




the assumption i see in this article is that drinking wine automatically means drunkenness. the bible says wine is a mocker and strong drink a brawler. The bible does speak of alcoholic wine. Wine is very common among Jews today as it always has been.

Jesus did not sin by giving wine. If anybody got drunk it was because of their own sin. i also agree that good wine does not always mean stronger in alcoholic content, but as i said, Jesus did not sin by supplying alcoholic wine. It is possible to drink wine responsibly and not be drunk

God gave sex too but people sin sexually. Did God sin by giving them sex? this is one of those arguments that goes like this:


1.item A can be abused

2. whoever would supply item A is sinning because they are helping people abuse item A

using and abusing is two different things. A steak knife can be used to eat food or stab someone in the throat. the knife is not bad although potentially dangerous. it is the person who abuses the intended use who has sinned

Chimon
Dec 23rd 2008, 07:39 PM
I think, in light of of Paul's comments to Timothy, we are forced to accept that, Biblically, there are at least some situations when drinking alcohol is acceptable.

"No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments." (1 Timothy 5:23.)

This is practical advice, because alcohol would kill a bacterial infection in the stomach. (Grape juice wouldn't.)

Emanate
Dec 23rd 2008, 07:44 PM
This was the article I was referring to earlier...
If Jesus made wine, is it okay for us to drink it?

Assumptions


We commonly assume at least three things when reading this passage in John.


The word “wine” always means an intoxicating beverage in the Bible.

The phrase “good wine” implies a more potent wine with higher alcohol content.

The phrase “well drunk” means the guest were intoxicated.
If these assumptions are correct consider what the result is. When the supply of alcohol ran out at the wedding, Jesus supplied an even more potent supply to a group of people who were already drunk!




Drunkenness is sinful. (Romans 13:13, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21)
Jesus supplied more potent alcohol to wedding guests who were already intoxicated. (John 2:1-10)
Therefore Jesus sinned by contributing to their drunkenness. (Habakkuk 2:15, 1 Timothy 5:22)

Did Jesus ever sin?


A closer look at the assumptions




The word “wine” always means an intoxicating beverage in the Bible.



Wine was a general word referring to grape juice regardless of whether it was fermented or not.



External


Anecreon who wrote in 500 BC said, “Only males tread the grapes setting free the wine”.

Cato (236 – 149 BC) referred to “hanging wine” (grape clusters).

Columella (4 – 70 AD) spoke of “unintoxicating wine”.

Ovid (43 BC – 18 AD) said, “And scarce can the grapes contain the wine they have within”.

Ibycus (6th Century BC) stated, “And newborn clusters teem with wine, beneath the shadowy foliage of the vine”.


Internal



…tread out wine in the presses... Isaiah 16:10




...new wine is found in the cluster... Isaiah 65:8

…vats shall overflow with new wine... Joel 2:24, Proverbs 3:10

...the vine said to them, “Should I cease my new wine...” Judges 9:13





The phrase “good wine” implies wine with higher alcohol content.


“Good” may have referred to the flavor, color, purity or other qualities of the beverage.
Pliny (23 – 73 AD) stated, “Wines are most beneficial when all their potency has been overcome by the strainer”. (Note: In biblical times, one method of preserving grape juice in an unfermented state was to strain out the pulp which contained gluten. Gluten promoted the fermentation process.)

Pliny is also attributed to say that good wine was destitute of spirit.
Other ancient writers (Pliny, Plutarch, Horace) mention that the best wine was that which was harmless or innocent.

The phrase “well drunk” means the guest were intoxicated.



Of the 22 bible translations listed below, none of them actually says the wedding guests were drunk. At most it indicates that they had had a lot to drink.

“drunk freely” (NASB)
“had their fill” (The Message)
“drunk freely” (Amplified Bible)
“had a lot to drink” (New Living Translation)
“well drunk” (KJV)
“drunk freely” (ESV)
“had plenty” (CEV)
“well drunk” (NKJV)
“been drinking awhile” (NCV)
“drunk well” (21st Century KJV)
“too much to drink“ (NIV)
“drunk freely” (ASV)
“drunk freely” (YLT)
“well drunk” (Darby)
“drunk freely” (Holman Christian Standard)
“too much to drink” (New International Reader's Version)
“be full-filled” (Wycliffe New Testament)
“had all they want” (Worldwide English)
“drunk freely” (LITV)
“drunk well” (MKJV)
“drunk freely” (RV)
“drinking awhile” (New American Bible)




The text states that the general practice of the bridegrooms in those days was to serve the inferior wine after everyone had been drinking a while. It is possible that “well drunk” may refer to the amount that had been consumed rather than the effects of the beverage.

Conclusion


We have to ask ourselves, “Which interpretation is more consistent with what we know about the character of Jesus and what the Bible teaches about drunkenness?”. Consider this...


Jesus never sinned. (Hebrews 4:15, 1 Peter 2:21-22)
Supplying alcohol for others to drink would constitute sharing in their sins (1 Timothy 5:22)
Therefore the wine that Jesus made was not alcoholic.




You are suggesting that no one at the party had self control and they got drunk because it was Jesus' fault?


It was alcoholic, without a doubt.


Christianity did not exist at the time of Jesus, therefore alcohol constumption did not carry the stigma.


There are commands in the OT to buy strong drink and feast (function of the tithe).

Brother Mark
Dec 23rd 2008, 07:50 PM
Jesus never sinned. (Hebrews 4:15, 1 Peter 2:21-22)
Supplying alcohol for others to drink would constitute sharing in their sins (1 Timothy 5:22)
Therefore the wine that Jesus made was not alcoholic.


Last time I checked, God created grapes and all good food. I suppose that he participated in the sin of all gluttons since he created and gave to man food. :rolleyes:

Just to state the obvious, creating wine and causing someone to get drunk are entirely different things. :saint:

reformedct
Dec 23rd 2008, 07:57 PM
[/list]

Last time I checked, God created grapes and all good food. I suppose that he participated in the sin of all gluttons since he created and gave to man food. :rolleyes:

Just to state the obvious, creating wine and causing someone to get drunk are entirely different things. :saint:

also, just considered how flawed this is:

God gave rapists a private part so God caused him to stumble and sin

God gave humans a brain and the ability to use that brain to make a bomb so God sinned

Jesus turned water into alcoholic wine at a party. So Jesus sinned.
we also must remember even though it was alcoholic it was not as strong as some wines today. You could probably drink quite a bit and be fine. However maybe the reason they ran out was because there was so many people, not that it was a few who were already plumb drunk.

God gave wine to gladden the heart

alcoholic wine was common among celebrations back in those days

mikebr
Dec 23rd 2008, 08:43 PM
also, just considered how flawed this is:

God gave rapists a private part so God caused him to stumble and sin

God gave humans a brain and the ability to use that brain to make a bomb so God sinned

Jesus turned water into alcoholic wine at a party. So Jesus sinned.
we also must remember even though it was alcoholic it was not as strong as some wines today. You could probably drink quite a bit and be fine. However maybe the reason they ran out was because there was so many people, not that it was a few who were already plumb drunk.

God gave wine to gladden the heart

alcoholic wine was common among celebrations back in those days

Jesus did expect the people to drink the wine though.

Brother Mark
Dec 23rd 2008, 08:47 PM
Jesus did expect the people to drink the wine though.

True. Just as he expects us to eat food and to pro-create. But along with each gift, comes a warning about not indulging the flesh.

kenrank
Dec 23rd 2008, 08:55 PM
You have that freedom as long as self-control is maintained and drunkenness isn't taking place. As long as we can do these sort of things in moderation there shouldn't be a problem. However, many folks have difficulty only doing things in moderation. Additionally, some have difficulty judging what is moderation and what isn't. Therefore, much wisdom should be taken when taking part in such a thing. Whatever we do it should all be done unto the Lord.

Good advice. I think it is really simple, don't get drunk. We ALL know when the mood begins to change, for better or worse, that is when we should stop. A sober mind is he repeated claim in scripture.

Peace.
Ken

keck553
Dec 23rd 2008, 08:58 PM
Interesting point... I read something the other day about that passage that noted Christ had to have created non-alcoholic wine. I'll have to find it and post it later... intresting read.

The Mormons say He turned it to grape juice. No Jew worth his salt at a wedding party would put up with that.

kf4zmt
Dec 23rd 2008, 08:59 PM
the assumption i see in this article is that drinking wine automatically means drunkenness. the bible says wine is a mocker and strong drink a brawler. The bible does speak of alcoholic wine. Wine is very common among Jews today as it always has been.

Jesus did not sin by giving wine. If anybody got drunk it was because of their own sin. i also agree that good wine does not always mean stronger in alcoholic content, but as i said, Jesus did not sin by supplying alcoholic wine. It is possible to drink wine responsibly and not be drunk

God gave sex too but people sin sexually. Did God sin by giving them sex? this is one of those arguments that goes like this:


1.item A can be abused

2. whoever would supply item A is sinning because they are helping people abuse item A

using and abusing is two different things. A steak knife can be used to eat food or stab someone in the throat. the knife is not bad although potentially dangerous. it is the person who abuses the intended use who has sinned

I don't see that the article equates drinking wine with drunkenness. What in it makes you think that?

What I think it is saying is that the word "wine" AS USED IN THE BIBLE does not always refers to an alcoholic beverage. What it seems to say is that the word wine could refer to a beverage that is either fermented or unfermented and the context would have to be used to determine which is under discussion. For example, Isaiah 65:8 talks about "wine being in the cluster". What is inside a cluster of grapes? A fermented beverage? No, unfermented grape juice. Today when we use the word wine, we always, without exception, mean a fermented drink. The Bible obviously doesn't use the word wine in an exclusive way the way we do in modern times. In the Bible it could refer to the juice of the grape in either state. The context will tell you which.

As for your example about "item A", I'd say it depends. If I give someone a steak knife to use to eat with thats one thing. If I give a steak knife to someone who is about to commit a criminal assault on someone else, thats quite another. In the first case, I'm being a good host. In the latter, I am an accessory to a crime!

Brother Mark
Dec 23rd 2008, 09:06 PM
As for your example about "item A", I'd say it depends. If I give someone a steak knife to use to eat with thats one thing. If I give a steak knife to someone who is about to commit a criminal assault on someone else, thats quite another. In the first case, I'm being a good host. In the latter, I am an accessory to a crime!

So if God gives a man more food than he needs, and that man commits the sin of gluttony, God is an accessory to the sin? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

I guess since God causes it to rain on the just and the unjust, when he does that, knowing the unjust man will abuse the gift, he becomes an accessory. :hmm:

kf4zmt
Dec 23rd 2008, 09:12 PM
You are suggesting that no one at the party had self control and they got drunk because it was Jesus' fault?


It was alcoholic, without a doubt.


Christianity did not exist at the time of Jesus, therefore alcohol constumption did not carry the stigma.


There are commands in the OT to buy strong drink and feast (function of the tithe).


If people at the party had no self control, that is certainly not Jesus' fault. On the other hand, if they were already drunk, and he supplied them with an even more potent supply of alcohol so that they could continue their revelings, where does that leave us?

Read the outline carefully, notice that it is dealing with ASSUMPTIONS that people have about the passage in John 2.

By the way, how can you be so sure that the wine was fermented? Is it because the word "wine" today always refers to an intoxicating beverage?

reformedct
Dec 23rd 2008, 09:14 PM
I don't see that the article equates drinking wine with drunkenness. What in it makes you think that?

What I think it is saying is that the word "wine" AS USED IN THE BIBLE does not always refers to an alcoholic beverage. What it seems to say is that the word wine could refer to a beverage that is either fermented or unfermented and the context would have to be used to determine which is under discussion. For example, Isaiah 65:8 talks about "wine being in the cluster". What is inside a cluster of grapes? A fermented beverage? No, unfermented grape juice. Today when we use the word wine, we always, without exception, mean a fermented drink. The Bible obviously doesn't use the word wine in an exclusive way the way we do in modern times. In the Bible it could refer to the juice of the grape in either state. The context will tell you which.

As for your example about "item A", I'd say it depends. If I give someone a steak knife to use to eat with thats one thing. If I give a steak knife to someone who is about to commit a criminal assault on someone else, thats quite another. In the first case, I'm being a good host. In the latter, I am an accessory to a crime!

you have a good point. now let me ask this. why did the Jews falsley accuse Jesus of being a drunkard and a glutton? when he was at these parties was there non-alcoholic wine?

i see that the point is being made that not every time the word wine is used it means alcoholic

i can somewhat agree with that, however then my question is, what is the evidence that the bible WAS NOT talking about alcoholic wine?

remember the contrast between Him and John the Baptist?

Luke 7:
33 For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon.’ 34 The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard


John: no bread no wine
Jesus eats drinks
Jesus glutton drunkard


it seems safe to say he meant drinking alcoholic wine. if he didn't, how could they even begin to accuse him of being a drunkard?



although it does not specifically say drinking alcoholic wine, the story line of the Gospels and the historical Jewish traditions at parties all point to alcoholic wine.


i find very little biblical or historical evidence that suggest this was non-alcoholic wine in the New Testament. I see much evidence pointing the other way.

cindylou
Dec 23rd 2008, 09:17 PM
I was raised in a non- drinking home where the bible was twisted to support the non - drinking stance, and alcohol viewed as a sinful thing.

I did not have a healthy view of alcohol for a while because of this.

I love my father very much but we really must remember that we always must stick to scripture.

Even if the truth is less comfortable than we'd like to admit.

If someone wants to judge me for drinking, that is on them. Abstaining completely using scripture is more harmful than moderate drinking, or abstaining because of personal preference.

One day I may never pick up another drink again, but I'll be sure thats its because of personal preference, not because I think its sinful.

keck553
Dec 23rd 2008, 09:21 PM
On Sukkot (feast of tabernacles), God commands His people to celebate and gives the following instruction:

Deu 14:26 "You may spend the money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen, or sheep, or wine, or strong drink, or whatever your heart desires; and there you shall eat in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household.

reformedct
Dec 23rd 2008, 09:24 PM
abstinence from alcohol is actually a more recent part of church history

many people from the early church such as the Puritans drank beer as a regular way of life

the world has marketed and twisted drinking to be something used for sin and folly

in response to the world the church chose to abstain, some because they wanted the church to look "holier" than the culture

however holiness is a matter of conduct not choice of drink

just because the world twists alcohol, sex, and money, doesn't mean it is sinful to appreciate and use these things in a way that has been allowed and instructed by our great God

it will be good to see the look on peoples face when we get to heaven and Jesus breaks out the heavenly wine! lol

keck553
Dec 23rd 2008, 09:33 PM
I was raised in a non- drinking home where the bible was twisted to support the non - drinking stance, and alcohol viewed as a sinful thing.

I did not have a healthy view of alcohol for a while because of this.

I love my father very much but we really must remember that we always must stick to scripture.

Even if the truth is less comfortable than we'd like to admit.

If someone wants to judge me for drinking, that is on them. Abstaining completely using scripture is more harmful than moderate drinking, or abstaining because of personal preference.

One day I may never pick up another drink again, but I'll be sure thats its because of personal preference, not because I think its sinful.

exactly the point. What does God say?

If God choose to have people abstain from alcohol it would be clearly commanded in Torah.

It always amazes me how people can disregard God's instructions (Torah) about what and what is not food, yet lay the heavy yoke of their own human tranditions and ordances on other believers. Woe to them.

reformedct
Dec 23rd 2008, 09:51 PM
even if Jesus did not use alcoholic wine in that one specific event, the fact remains that:

The bible does not forbid wine or strong drink, eventhough it warns that strong drink is a brawler and wine a mocker, it does not say:

thou shalt not drink alcoholic drink (unless they are under a special vow such as Samson or set apart for a specific work like John the Baptist)

we can argue about Jesus all we want, but the Bible clearly allows strong drink

kf4zmt
Dec 24th 2008, 03:15 AM
you have a good point. now let me ask this. why did the Jews falsley accuse Jesus of being a drunkard and a glutton? when he was at these parties was there non-alcoholic wine?

i see that the point is being made that not every time the word wine is used it means alcoholic

i can somewhat agree with that, however then my question is, what is the evidence that the bible WAS NOT talking about alcoholic wine?

remember the contrast between Him and John the Baptist?

Luke 7:
33 For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon.’ 34 The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard


John: no bread no wine
Jesus eats drinks
Jesus glutton drunkard


it seems safe to say he meant drinking alcoholic wine. if he didn't, how could they even begin to accuse him of being a drunkard?



although it does not specifically say drinking alcoholic wine, the story line of the Gospels and the historical Jewish traditions at parties all point to alcoholic wine.


i find very little biblical or historical evidence that suggest this was non-alcoholic wine in the New Testament. I see much evidence pointing the other way.

You make some good points as well. :)

I don't think the outline posted by uric3 is dealing in absolutes. If you read it carefully, it appears to be offering evidence that Jesus did not necessarily make strong drink as is most often assumed. Notice in the conclusion section that is asks, "Which interpretation is more consistent with what we know about the character of Jesus and what the Bible teaches about drunkenness?”.

The two interpretations presented in the outline is that either 1) he made strong drink for a crowd of drunks or 2) he made a drink that was not strong for a crowd that was not already intoxicated. Its a valid question; which view is more consistent with the rest of the scriptures?

Slug1
Dec 24th 2008, 03:37 AM
Its a valid question; which view is more consistent with the rest of the scriptures?Jesus Himself stated that He came eating and drinking and said He was accused of being a drunkard. Why would He be accused of being a drunkard if He drank something not alcoholic? Or if it was only a little bit alcoholic then He must have drank allot of it to be thusly accused?

Why would He even bring that up... He won't lie! We do know He wasn't a drunkard and this was peoples exaggeration of His consumption of alcohol but the one fact remains... if He never drank alcohol He'd have never had to say He was accused as being a drunkard. So His consumption of alcohol was publicly known as well.

How far is the exaggeration going... I've seen people on this forum state a single drink means your a drunkard but when I asked them if they'd say that to Jesus... cricket, cricket, cricket. :rolleyes:

We also know that church leaders are advised not to consume "much" wine. Which to my understanding means, "they can have a drink", not "have" to have a drink but "can" have a drink.

Zack702
Dec 24th 2008, 09:45 AM
so does this mean that drinking alcoholic drink is ok for Christians?

The question here is what are the rules for Christian drinking

There are at least two versus as i have stated that mention wine and a merry heart. We know that when people drink they laugh harder. So it seems as if a sort of "slight buzz" is not prohibited? a middle ground between stark drunk and drinking responsibly?


Ecclesiastes 10:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=25&chapter=10&verse=17&version=31&context=verse)
Blessed are you, O land whose king is of noble birth and whose princes eat at a proper time— for strength and not for drunkenness.

This verse is a preety cool one when talking about responsible drinking even thought it says eating.

Prophet Daniel
Dec 24th 2008, 10:17 AM
this thread is made so that we can LOOK AT WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS, not your personal opinions

thank you!

I will write a new law on their heart and on their minds...

We are now chilrdren of God... we call Abba father...

I definitely do not treat all my children the same. Different personalities call for different treatment. One migth need a talk and the other a hiding. One rule counts forl all was the case where the relationship was "God-nation" now it is "God-child". It is something totally different. The law on your heart and the one on mine is personalised in my relationship with Him. I know am not allowed to drink because the law God clearly put on my heart says so.

I know that my friend who has never had a problem with his conscience about it is in God will when he takes a drink. You will never be able to decree what is lawfull and what is not for mankind. We have a new law called love and it is customised for you in your relationship with Father.

tango
Dec 24th 2008, 10:37 AM
Considering the harm drinking has caused to our society-I do not see any reason why a Bible believing Christian would drink at all. Why bother? It isn't bringing you closer to Christ-only closer to the world and it's ways.

The trouble with this approach is that you cede control of God's creation to the devil.

The devil delights in corrupting God's gifts to us, ruining them and twisting them, and using them to destroy us.

I won't dispute that alcohol has caused a lot of damage to society, but we can say the same about many things. If we apply the same logic to other aspects of our society we end up with things like:

Considering the harm cars have caused to our society - I do not see any reason why a Bible believing Christian would drive at all. Why bother? It isn't bringing you closer to Christ, only closer to the world and its ways

If you personally choose not to drink alcohol that's as valid a decision as choosing not to drink coffee or choosing not to eat meat. The Bible doesn't tell us we are not to drink at all, nor does it tell us that drinking is mandatory. Therefore, in the absence of compulsion or prohibition, we can only assume it is something we are left to decide for ourselves.

godsgirl
Dec 24th 2008, 12:23 PM
So, your freedom to drink is more important than your love for your brother? I just don't see it that way.

It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble.
Romans 14:21

VerticalReality
Dec 24th 2008, 01:01 PM
So, your freedom to drink is more important than your love for your brother? I just don't see it that way.

It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble.
Romans 14:21

I don't think anyone has stated that, godsgirl. Alcoholism isn't a new problem that has just arisen within the last couple of centuries or something. Alcoholism and folks getting drunk has been in existence as long as alcoholic drinks have. The fact that some folks may have struggled with alcohol or that religious people had a problem with alcohol didn't deter our Savior from partaking of it. Therefore, why should we be any different? Now, of course, if you are around someone that really struggles with this issue because they were in bondage to it we want to walk in love and not cause them to stumble. However, none of these issues are new, and none of them made our Savior just totally give up drinking alcohol. So, why should we now make a law that none should take part?

Slug1
Dec 24th 2008, 02:17 PM
So, your freedom to drink is more important than your love for your brother? I just don't see it that way.

It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble.
Romans 14:21Are you speaking to those particpating in this thread or Jesus?

I agree with you, I will not offer my brother or sister who has a problem with alcohol, a drink or make it available in anyway.

kenrank
Dec 24th 2008, 09:34 PM
So, your freedom to drink is more important than your love for your brother? I just don't see it that way.

It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble.
Romans 14:21

It is a common belief that "new wine" is grape juice. I also believe that notion has been scripturally dispelled on this thread. Yahushua (Jesus) turned water into wine, not grape juice. Having a glass of wine, even a beer, doesn't cause one to stumble unless you are flaunting it in front of one who has a problem in this area. That is likely what Paul was talking about. What causes people to stumble is hypocrisy...when you preach don't drink...and then be seen drinking. When you preach to leave the lust of the flesh aside, and then get caught with one other than your spouse. When you preach not to eat pork, and then buy a Christmas ham. When you preach not to smoke, and then be seen buying a pack. This is hypocrisy, and this is what causes a brother to stumble, Because he THINKS you are one thing based on your words....but he SEES you live outside of that which you speak.

Peace.
Ken

SIG
Dec 24th 2008, 11:42 PM
I was discipled in Amsterdam. Enough said.

A blessed Christmas, everyone!

tango
Dec 25th 2008, 12:59 PM
So, your freedom to drink is more important than your love for your brother? I just don't see it that way.

It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble.
Romans 14:21

Who said freedom was more important than love? How is me drinking a glass of port with my Christmas dinner causing my brother, or anyone else for that matter, to stumble?

If I went out for an evening with someone with a drink problem of course I wouldn't take them to a bar. That would be causing someone to stumble.

If you're going to try and tell me that I shouldn't have a glass because someone might stumble through merely knowing I have a drink, where do you propose to draw the line regarding what is acceptable? Just about anything we do could conceivably offend somebody somewhere if they knew it was done.

PsPickle
Dec 26th 2008, 12:57 AM
Jesus Himself stated that He came eating and drinking and said He was accused of being a drunkard. Why would He be accused of being a drunkard if He drank something not alcoholic? Or if it was only a little bit alcoholic then He must have drank allot of it to be thusly accused?

Why would He even bring that up... He won't lie! We do know He wasn't a drunkard and this was peoples exaggeration of His consumption of alcohol but the one fact remains... if He never drank alcohol He'd have never had to say He was accused as being a drunkard. So His consumption of alcohol was publicly known as well.

How far is the exaggeration going... I've seen people on this forum state a single drink means your a drunkard but when I asked them if they'd say that to Jesus... cricket, cricket, cricket. :rolleyes:

We also know that church leaders are advised not to consume "much" wine. Which to my understanding means, "they can have a drink", not "have" to have a drink but "can" have a drink.







Titus 1:7 reads that bishops in the church must not be given to wine. In Titus 2:3, it is "Older women" which are not given to "Much" wine.

I think that means Men can't drink but women can.:spin:

Slug1
Dec 26th 2008, 02:18 AM
Titus 1:7 reads that bishops in the church must not be given to wine. In Titus 2:3, it is "Older women" which are not given to "Much" wine.

I think that means Men can't drink but women can.:spin:Guess we can debate translations then :lol:

Not given to wine means not addicted to wine or not to abuse wine. Not addicted to wine means not a sinful use of wine... so then we can drink as Jesus drank it then ;)

keck553
Dec 29th 2008, 06:08 PM
Well, I for one, intend on shariing Kiddush with Yeshua. :pp

The grape juice drinkers can hang out in the corridor.

Emanate
Dec 29th 2008, 10:25 PM
I was discipled in Amsterdam. Enough said.




Yes, almost too much :hmm:

HisLeast
Dec 29th 2008, 10:45 PM
this thread is made so that we can LOOK AT WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS, not your personal opinions

If there's one thing I've learned over the years, is that it doesn't matter a lick what the Bible actually says. Either nobody really knows, or people are content with their own interpretation. Nothing will change that save the final judgment when it will all be imminently clear to us.

Brother Mark
Dec 29th 2008, 10:48 PM
If there's one thing I've learned over the years, is that it doesn't matter a lick what the Bible actually says. Either nobody really knows, or people are content with their own interpretation. Nothing will change that save the final judgment when it will all be imminently clear to us.

God does teach us though. He took the disciples off on his own and taught them. And he told us that the Holy Spirit would teach us. We can know many things even though we see through a glass darkly. :hug:

tt1106
Dec 29th 2008, 10:48 PM
I let the Holy Spirit be my guide.

HisLeast
Dec 29th 2008, 10:52 PM
God does teach us though. He took the disciples off on his own and taught them. And he told us that the Holy Spirit would teach us. We can know many things even though we see through a glass darkly. :hug:

Same problem in more soothing language. Which group's teachings does one believe when both claim to have been taught by the holy spirit and each belief is mutually exclusive?

Brother Mark
Dec 29th 2008, 11:00 PM
Same problem in more soothing language. Which group's teachings does one believe when both claim to have been taught by the holy spirit and each belief is mutually exclusive?

You can know. Just believe what the bible says and take God at his word. The things you don't understand, just believe them anyway.

1 John 1:4

4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
KJV

and

1 John 2:20-21

20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
KJV

HisLeast
Dec 29th 2008, 11:04 PM
You can know. Just believe what the bible says and take God at his word. The things you don't understand, just believe them anyway.

Well, as far as I know thats what I've tried to do these past years. But here's the problem: "God at his word".

So what's His word on alcohol?

Yankee Candle
Dec 30th 2008, 02:38 AM
Excuse me while I ramble off my personal prejudices against drinking fermented beverages.

The key word, however, is 'fermented'. The drinking of wine, per se, is not wrong...unless it has become intoxicating.
To stupefy or excite, as by the action of a chemical substance such as alcohol. 2. To stimulate or excite: "a man whom life intoxicates, who has no need of wine" (Anaïs Nin). 3. To poison. --intr. To cause stupefaction, stimulation, or excitement by or as if by use of a chemical substance: "The notion of Holy War is showing that it has not yet lost all its power to intoxicate and to inflame" (Conor Cruise O'Brien). [Middle English, to poison, (American Heritage Dictionary)

The Bible encourages the drinking of the fruit of the vine (wine) unless it has become fermented:

29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?

30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.

31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. Proverbs 23:29-31.

When wine degenerates past its pure state it is no longer looked upon as the 'fruit of the vine' but a corruption that causes intoxication to one degree or another.

I am not against all wine drinking. At Christmas, my family enjoyed an Italian spumante wine (non-alcoholic) and it's taste was delicious. But we won't place a stumbling block in front of our Christian brothers and sisters by imbibing in a fermented beverage. It would be horrible if we had invited (unknowlingly) an ex-drunkard to our table and placed a drink in front of him, the taste of which that would tempt him or inflame his flesh to return to the life of sin and drunkeness.

By definition, to drink fermented beverages is to partake of something intoxicating (poisonous). It is the poisonous effect of such drinks that causes men to make fools of themselves or even bring shame to themselves.

The Lord Jesus must be honored in all things.



Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!

reformedct
Dec 30th 2008, 03:07 AM
Excuse me while I ramble off my personal prejudices against drinking fermented beverages.

The key word, however, is 'fermented'. The drinking of wine, per se, is not wrong...unless it has become intoxicating.
To stupefy or excite, as by the action of a chemical substance such as alcohol. 2. To stimulate or excite: "a man whom life intoxicates, who has no need of wine" (Anaïs Nin). 3. To poison. --intr. To cause stupefaction, stimulation, or excitement by or as if by use of a chemical substance: "The notion of Holy War is showing that it has not yet lost all its power to intoxicate and to inflame" (Conor Cruise O'Brien). [Middle English, to poison, (American Heritage Dictionary)

The Bible encourages the drinking of the fruit of the vine (wine) unless it has become fermented:

29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?

30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.

31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. Proverbs 23:29-31.

When wine degenerates past its pure state it is no longer looked upon as the 'fruit of the vine' but a corruption that causes intoxication to one degree or another.

I am not against all wine drinking. At Christmas, my family enjoyed an Italian spumante wine (non-alcoholic) and it's taste was delicious. But we won't place a stumbling block in front of our Christian brothers and sisters by imbibing in a fermented beverage. It would be horrible if we had invited (unknowlingly) an ex-drunkard to our table and placed a drink in front of him, the taste of which that would tempt him or inflame his flesh to return to the life of sin and drunkeness.

By definition, to drink fermented beverages is to partake of something intoxicating (poisonous). It is the poisonous effect of such drinks that causes men to make fools of themselves or even bring shame to themselves.

The Lord Jesus must be honored in all things.



Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!



ok thats fine we can argue about the state of "wine", but what about when God told the His people to buy wine or strong drink and drink it before Him??

dont tell me you also think strong drink is also non-alcoholic???? the bible clearly says wine is a mocker, and strong drink a brawler. i do not see how strong drink was non-alcoholic, but im sure there is some far out explanation for this too

and why do Jews still drink alcoholic wine to this day?

baxpack7
Dec 30th 2008, 03:10 AM
OK, we've already had one thread involving alcoholic consumption closed tonight so let's keep this real, shall we?
Quote:
29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?

30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.

First of all, if you look at this scripture to try and prove your point, then you're making the point against yourself. V.30 explains V.29 by saying that those are the SYMPTOMS of drinking too much and perhaps even mixing your drinks. (which we all know should NEVER be done) Even the passages in Timothy, Paul makes reference to not being "given" to wine or strong drink. "Given" meaning abuse of the drink. There is NO place in the bible that PROHIBITS Christian use of alcohol. It is a sin, however to drink too much, because drinking too much impairs you and changes you to a point where you won't make rational decisions (I.E. drinking and driving, adultery, drug consumption, you get the point)

My friendly advice to you is this: don't change the Word just to try and prove your point. Remember, God doesn't like that either.

tango
Dec 30th 2008, 01:36 PM
Same problem in more soothing language. Which group's teachings does one believe when both claim to have been taught by the holy spirit and each belief is mutually exclusive?

If one group chooses not to drink alcohol let them not drink alcohol. If another group chooses to drink alcohol in moderation let them drink alcohol in moderation.

Nobody disputes that drunkenness in a sin (Eph 5:18, among others, tells us this). But beyond that the Bible doesn't explicitly tell us universally that we must not drink, nor does it tell us universally that we must drink. In the absence of such compulsion or prohibition we are all free to choose as the Spirit guides us. The fact that one may have been guided to live in a certain way does not require another to live in the same way.

If some people choose to eat peanut butter and others do not we don't make a big fuss over it :hmm:

Slug1
Dec 30th 2008, 01:47 PM
If some people choose to eat peanut butter and others do not we don't make a big fuss over it :hmm:Or use the Internet in a righteous manner as Jesus would use the Internet in a righteous manner.

Since the Internet can be used and abused just like the consumption of alcohol can... why don't Christian's who preach the legalistic "Separate yourself from the world and don't drink a drop" don't stop using the internet when applying their own personal theology to themselves?

Unfortunately, those bound with this spirit of legalism and/or religion... don't realize this.

reformedct
Dec 30th 2008, 04:10 PM
People use their mouths to say evil things i guess we should put a ban on talking

People abuse power i guess we should get rid of the government

People abuse people i guess we should ban human life

People abuse wine i guess we should ban wine

:giveup:

groovemongrel
Dec 30th 2008, 06:53 PM
The bible states many times about the dangers of alcohol. Drinking it is not a sin but overdoing it is a sin. If you can't moderate, then don't do it. It's a very slippery slope for some.

faithfulfriend
Dec 30th 2008, 08:03 PM
Or use the Internet in a righteous manner as Jesus would use the Internet in a righteous manner.

Since the Internet can be used and abused just like the consumption of alcohol can... why don't Christian's who preach the legalistic "Separate yourself from the world and don't drink a drop" don't stop using the internet when applying their own personal theology to themselves?

Unfortunately, those bound with this spirit of legalism and/or religion... don't realize this.

Interesting how you say that those who are "preaching" abstinence of alcohol are promoting their "own personal theology." Yet that very same statement could be made right back at you concerning your belief of "alcohol in moderation."

So let's not immediately dismiss somebody elses scriptures, beliefs, etc just because they disagree with yours. This forum is for discussion, not personal attacks, cheap shots, etc. Individuals can be so sincerely convinced that they are right, but yet at the same time be sincerely wrong.

Anyone in there right mind would have to at least agree that the abuse of alcohol in America has caused many problems for many familes, friends, children, husbands, and wives.

reformedct
Dec 30th 2008, 10:05 PM
Interesting how you say that those who are "preaching" abstinence of alcohol are promoting their "own personal theology." Yet that very same statement could be made right back at you concerning your belief of "alcohol in moderation."

So let's not immediately dismiss somebody elses scriptures, beliefs, etc just because they disagree with yours. This forum is for discussion, not personal attacks, cheap shots, etc. Individuals can be so sincerely convinced that they are right, but yet at the same time be sincerely wrong.

Anyone in there right mind would have to at least agree that the abuse of alcohol in America has caused many problems for many familes, friends, children, husbands, and wives.


Key words: the abuse of alcohol in America

Yes. The abuse of alcohol in America has caused many deaths and other problems with families

But it was not Alcohol that caused those problems. It was People who Abused that alcohol


WE certainly cant deny someones feelings that we should all abstain, But WE CERTAINLY CAN deny someone trying to make a rule that none of us can drink just because that is THEIR opinion.

The Bible says you may drink wine AND strong drink. The Bible says it loud and clear. You may not get drunk but YOU MAY DRINK WINE AND STRONG DRINK

people can have their feelings, views, and opinions, and i respect those.

But to say drinking alcohol is a sin is a lie from the devil because the Bible does not say that. God Himself said for his people to buy wine and strong drink if they desired. There are times when we are in the rpesence of recovering abusers when we should obviously not tempt them. But if i am with my girl at a restaurant and i want to order a glass of wine, i am blessed in the sight of God. "Drink your wine with a merry heart, for God has already approved of what you do"


The problem comes when people try to make us who drink feel like we are sinning. That is the problem. EVen if you make an argument that wine meant unfermented wine, you cant say that strong drink means unfermented strong drink. The bible calls strong drink a brawler when it is abused. Obviously strong drink is more than just really really sweet juice.


So yes, we can respect those who dont want to drink, but they also need to respect our freedom to drink, instead of trying to make us feel like we are "under the trick of the enemy":rolleyes:

God gave wine which gladdens the heart.

Alcohol does not make anyone do anything. People CHOOSE to ABUSE alcohol. the people are the problem not the alcohol.

So please people stop trying to make every Christian conform to your personal opinion. The Bible does not ban alcohol. Period. So if i drink an alcoholic drink, do not try to make me feel bad because God approves of what i do.

JimC in NM
Dec 30th 2008, 11:23 PM
Whew! from all of the posts, it seems abundantly clear that drinking wine or "strong drink" is not forbidden in the Scriptures. It's actually encouraged in a number of places. However, it is also abundantly clear that '"staying long at the wine" or "tarrying" is frowned on in the Scriptures. Like virtually everything that God has given us, we CAN find a way to abuse it (and ourselves), whether that be alcohol, food, sex, or even a mis-guided fervor for God (can we say "Inquisition"?). The fault is not in God's gifts, but in how we use them. I am not ashamed to say, I have a "drink" of either beer, wine, etc. almost every evening, and feel no guilt whatsoever. I drink ONE drink. I haven't taken alcohol to get "drunk", since I was in college, and that was a LOOOONG time ago. Medical science is proving that the advice of Paul was correct, a little wine is good for the body. Chances are (although I can't point to it in Scripture), that Paul's good friend and companion, Luke, the physician, would have agreed. I can find nowhere in the Bible that forbids drinking any alcoholic beverages, but find plenty of places that condemn being a drunkard. I went to school with Gary Nation (grandson of Carrie Nation), and even he couldn't point to Scripture that forbade alcohol, unless a person is a Nazarite, and even then, according to Rabbinical tradition, alcohol fermented from grapes, vinegar, grapes themselves, raisins, etc. were forbidden, but not alcohol from other sources (grain).

tango
Dec 31st 2008, 02:10 AM
Anyone in there right mind would have to at least agree that the abuse of alcohol in America has caused many problems for many familes, friends, children, husbands, and wives.

Anyone can also see that the abuse of cars has caused many problems for many families - look at the number of families torn apart by death on the roads.

Anyone can see that the abuse of photographic equipment has caused many problems for many families - look at the sickening catalogues of child abuse our police forces have to deal with.

And so on. Anything can be abused but that doesn't mean the underlying item is automatically evil.

JimC in NM
Dec 31st 2008, 03:49 AM
So, your freedom to drink is more important than your love for your brother? I just don't see it that way.

It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble.
Romans 14:21

While I agree that we shouldn't do anything that would cause our brother (sister) to stumble, Paul's exhortation in Romans has to be taken in context. The 14th Chapter of Romans talks extensively about the differences between Christians weak in the faith, and others strong in the faith.
Romans 14:2-3 says "One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him." (NIV)
As someone strong in the faith, isn't it my obligation, in humility and love, to help my weaker brother to understand that God, through Christ, has freed him from the condemnation of the Law? Mind you, not by flaunting my ability to consume whatever I want, (that wouldn't be doing it in love), but by also not condoning or helping him stay in a state of spiritual infancy? Should I insist my brother be circumcised because I still believe it is required? Must I still observe the Mitzvot, because by not doing so, I cause my brother to stumble?
I feel that not becoming a stumbling block goes hand in hand with our responsibility to turn stumbling blocks into paving stones, giving our fellow Christians firm footing to stand on.

Slug1
Dec 31st 2008, 01:17 PM
Interesting how you say that those who are "preaching" abstinence of alcohol are promoting their "own personal theology." Yet that very same statement could be made right back at you concerning your belief of "alcohol in moderation."

So let's not immediately dismiss somebody elses scriptures, beliefs, etc just because they disagree with yours. This forum is for discussion, not personal attacks, cheap shots, etc. Individuals can be so sincerely convinced that they are right, but yet at the same time be sincerely wrong.

Anyone in there right mind would have to at least agree that the abuse of alcohol in America has caused many problems for many familes, friends, children, husbands, and wives.I agree with you 100%.

This does not make a persons personal thoughts "right" or their convictions based on their experiences or how scripture ministeres to them, how it "must" convict and minister to others. If a person says it's wrong to drink... fine, for them.... but not for me or any other Christian who is free from addiction or are not given to wine which is an abusing use of alcohol. If someone wants to preach to me I can't drink cause it's wrong for them to drink... they should first preach this to Jesus who drank alcohol. So far when I bring this up all I get is... cricket, cricket, cricket.

So easy to force their personal convictions down other peoples throats but when asked if they'd do that to Jesus if they were to see Him drinking... silence, never a reply... I get ignored and I've asked this many times. All it causes is that legalism to retaliate and they try harder to destroy the thread.

I'm not telling people to drink with my words, all I want is for people to "stop" tearing apart threads with an alcohol theme of discussion cause "they" don't drink and for "them" it's a sin. It's not a sin for others, nor was it a sin for Jesus.

That's all I ask.

reformedct
Jan 1st 2009, 06:13 PM
i dont mean to be mean but actually if you are a Christian whose consciounce doesnt permit you to drink any alcoholic beverage you are actually "weak in faith". This doesnt mean you have to drink any wine or anything of course if you dont want to. Its similar to those who think Christians should be vegetarians. Their conciounce is against them, but in reality they are weak in faith, because what we eat or drink is not what brings us closer to God


God Bless