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reformedct
Dec 24th 2008, 04:55 PM
i will try to keep this simple.

lets discuss what is necessary for salvation:

ye must be born again, that which is born of flesh is flesh, that which is born of spirit is spirit

you must perservere till the end, you must not fall away:

"to him who overcomes i will give the crown of life"


my first question is, is it possible to be born again by the Spirit and still end up in hell with your born again nature? if so, please show scripture that specifically states this concept

also, under the New Covenant(in the New Testament),
what is the process of the Holy Spirit leaving a true believer?
is there any scripture that talks about the Holy Spirit leaving a believer?
i have seen the spirit grieved and outraged, but i dont see any scriptures that say the Spirit can leave you under the new covenant. i know in the old covenant the Spirit was upon people only for a time and could leave that person, such as David crying out for God to not remove his Spirit, however does that happen under the new covenant? if so please provide scripture

also, does every "believer" become born again? for example the man who was baptised and "believed" in Acts, but then asked Paul to sell him the power of the Holy Spirit. was this man born from above? please show scripture that supports every "believer" is truly born again

and if losing salvation is possible, under the new covenant, please explain with scripture exactly how this process comes about


lets not try to force people to believe what we believe, but rather lets simply discuss the scripture

Butch5
Dec 24th 2008, 10:47 PM
i will try to keep this simple.

lets discuss what is necessary for salvation:

ye must be born again, that which is born of flesh is flesh, that which is born of spirit is spirit

you must perservere till the end, you must not fall away:

"to him who overcomes i will give the crown of life"


my first question is, is it possible to be born again by the Spirit and still end up in hell with your born again nature? if so, please show scripture that specifically states this concept

also, under the New Covenant(in the New Testament),
what is the process of the Holy Spirit leaving a true believer?
is there any scripture that talks about the Holy Spirit leaving a believer?
i have seen the spirit grieved and outraged, but i dont see any scriptures that say the Spirit can leave you under the new covenant. i know in the old covenant the Spirit was upon people only for a time and could leave that person, such as David crying out for God to not remove his Spirit, however does that happen under the new covenant? if so please provide scripture

also, does every "believer" become born again? for example the man who was baptised and "believed" in Acts, but then asked Paul to sell him the power of the Holy Spirit. was this man born from above? please show scripture that supports every "believer" is truly born again

and if losing salvation is possible, under the new covenant, please explain with scripture exactly how this process comes about


lets not try to force people to believe what we believe, but rather lets simply discuss the scripture

I believe it is when a believer chooses this world over Christ,

Hebrews 3:1-12 ( KJV ) 1Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; 2Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. 3For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. 4For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God. 5And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; 6But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.



7Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, 8Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: 9When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. 10Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. 11So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) 12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Notice what He says, Holy brethren, Partakers of hte heavenly calling, the apostles and high priest of "our" profession, Jesus Christ. These people were Christians, they were believers. Yet the writer tells them, take heed, brethren, lest their be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Partaker of Christ
Dec 24th 2008, 11:53 PM
I believe it is when a believer chooses this world over Christ,

Can a believer, have an evil heart of unbelief?


Hebrews 3:1-12 ( KJV ) 1Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; 2Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. 3For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. 4For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God. 5And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; 6But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

This speaks of being His house.
Are you a house?
Am I a house?



7Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, 8Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: 9When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. 10Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. 11So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) 12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Notice what He says, Holy brethren, Partakers of hte heavenly calling, the apostles and high priest of "our" profession, Jesus Christ. These people were Christians, they were believers. Yet the writer tells them, take heed, brethren, lest their be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

It does not speak of believers becoming unbelievers.
If there be any among you (in the house) having an evil heart of unbelief.

There are many today in churches who have an evil heart of belief. When persecution comes, they may depart from the living God. The living God dwells in the Body of Christ.

reformedct
Dec 25th 2008, 12:37 AM
Can a believer, have an evil heart of unbelief?

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This speaks of being His house.
Are you a house?
Am I a house?

[left][color=#000000][font=Verdana]

It does not speak of believers becoming unbelievers.
If there be any among you (in the house) having an evil heart of unbelief.

There are many today in churches who have an evil heart of belief. When persecution comes, they may depart from the living God. The living God dwells in the Body of Christ.


i do not think it is wrong to interpret Pauls warning as such:

"MAKE SURE YOU ARE A TRUE BELIEVER NOT JUST IN CHURCH PHYSICALLY BUT CONNECTED TO CHRIST FROM YOUR HEART

there is no such thing as an unbelieveing Christain, it is contradictory

i believe this is the same as "examine yourselves, whether you are in the faith"

this doesnt mean they are going to lose their salvation or the Spirit will leave them, unless you read that into the text imo, it means what it says:

make sure you really believe
examine yourself to make sure you are in the faith

it seems rather a simple warning to make sure that all the brethren are on the same page, and that they actually believe, not a warning that they will lose their salvation or a threat that the Holy Spirit is gonna leave them

Partaker of Christ
Dec 25th 2008, 12:46 AM
i do not think it is wrong to interpret Pauls warning as such:

"MAKE SURE YOU ARE A TRUE BELIEVER NOT JUST IN CHURCH PHYSICALLY BUT CONNECTED TO CHRIST FROM YOUR HEART

there is no such thing as an unbelieveing Christain, it is contradictory

i believe this is the same as "examine yourselves, whether you are in the faith"

this doesnt mean they are going to lose their salvation or the Spirit will leave them, unless you read that into the text imo, it means what it says:

make sure you really believe
examine yourself to make sure you are in the faith

it seems rather a simple warning to make sure that all the brethren are on the same page, and that they actually believe, not a warning that they will lose their salvation or a threat that the Holy Spirit is gonna leave them

Hi reformedct!

Yes, we are on the same page!!

Yukerboy
Dec 25th 2008, 01:03 AM
i do not think it is wrong to interpret Pauls warning as such:

"MAKE SURE YOU ARE A TRUE BELIEVER NOT JUST IN CHURCH PHYSICALLY BUT CONNECTED TO CHRIST FROM YOUR HEART

there is no such thing as an unbelieveing Christain, it is contradictory

i believe this is the same as "examine yourselves, whether you are in the faith"

this doesnt mean they are going to lose their salvation or the Spirit will leave them, unless you read that into the text imo, it means what it says:

make sure you really believe
examine yourself to make sure you are in the faith

it seems rather a simple warning to make sure that all the brethren are on the same page, and that they actually believe, not a warning that they will lose their salvation or a threat that the Holy Spirit is gonna leave them

Absolutely!

Work out your salvation with fear and trembling.
Make you election sure.

These things are only possible by persevering to the end. Those who believed for a while then fell away were never born of God for those born of God have God's seed remaining in them.

Now, one thing that must be realized when one accepts these sayings is that there is no such thing as blessed assurance to where you know you will persevere to the end.

I believe I will, but I do not KNOW I will. God willing, I will do this or go there. God willing I will persevere to the end.

Yuke

SeattleSun
Dec 25th 2008, 01:32 AM
I believe (oh no!), that once TRULY saved, always saved. There are those who profess Christ but are not possessed by Christ. Paul speaks often of our walks in the context of athletics, boxing and running. Our walks are not sprints and we do get knocked down. I believe that while one may be in Christ and remains fleshly, they lose rewards in heaven. Not their salvation. There's so much NT Scripture about assurance and testing your salvation (I can post some if called out, but its Christmas Eve), if you pass the test, you have assurance. We examine yourselves, yes, with fear and trembling.

I stand on John 10:1-18

Some of us may be rebellious sheep wanting to run away, some may be obedient and stay close to the Shepherd, some may be complacent looking only for rich pasture, but we all belong to Him, and He will not lose one of us. IF we are TRULY part of His fold.

Merry Christmas!

reformedct
Dec 25th 2008, 01:52 AM
I believe (oh no!), that once TRULY saved, always saved. There are those who profess Christ but are not possessed by Christ. Paul speaks often of our walks in the context of athletics, boxing and running. Our walks are not sprints and we do get knocked down. I believe that while one may be in Christ and remains fleshly, they lose rewards in heaven. Not their salvation. There's so much NT Scripture about assurance and testing your salvation (I can post some if called out, but its Christmas Eve), if you pass the test, you have assurance. We examine yourselves, yes, with fear and trembling.

I stand on John 10:1-18

Some of us may be rebellious sheep wanting to run away, some may be obedient and stay close to the Shepherd, some may be complacent looking only for rich pasture, but we all belong to Him, and He will not lose one of us. IF we are TRULY part of His fold.

Merry Christmas!

i agree with most of what you said, but let me just tighten it up a bit, before a NOSAS supporter screams: liscence!

yes it is possible for a believer to choose to sin and maybe even spend a period of time struggling with a sin, however, a true Christian will inevitably experience sanctification until the dau Christ returns. What this means is that the course of a persons life will be directed toward behaving just like Christ their master.

there is a holiness without which none will see the Lord. You will know them by their fruits

someone can claim to be saved and struggling in one area but showing fruit in others

however if we claim to be Christians and continually live in unrepentant sins it is most likely that person is not a Christian

i think you mean the same thing but i just wanted to magnify it

Yukerboy
Dec 25th 2008, 02:18 AM
Do I agree with reformedct that "yes it is possible for a believer to choose to sin "

Or...

Do I agree with John that "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

Um, hmmm, toughie, let me think...........I choose John.

Not going to derail the thread as it stands, but until you have proven in Scriptures that one who is born again can sin, I will speak up when you contradict what the Bible says.

I beleive we both agree that there is no specific process in losing salvation.

reformedct
Dec 25th 2008, 02:31 AM
Do I agree with reformedct that "yes it is possible for a believer to choose to sin "

Or...

Do I agree with John that "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

Um, hmmm, toughie, let me think...........I choose John.

Not going to derail the thread as it stands, but until you have proven in Scriptures that one who is born again can sin, I will speak up when you contradict what the Bible says.

I beleive we both agree that there is no specific process in losing salvation.

i appreciate your heart to defend the truth of Gods word

hmmmm.. i dont know the passage but here is something to think about

Was Peter , who wrote some of the Bible, born again? Yes

Did Peter according to Paul, have an experience where he was called out for being a hypocrite? i believe so, but i must find the passage

Did Peter commit hypocrisy?? hmmm

is hypocrisy a sin??

i think i know what your theology is so even if you agree with all those points you would most likely answer that Peter did not sin but his flesh did. I see where you are coming from but i hold a different interpretation. at least we agree on security :hug: lol

Yukerboy
Dec 25th 2008, 02:42 AM
i appreciate your heart to defend the truth of Gods word

Thank you, as I know you do too.


hmmmm.. i dont know the passage but here is something to think about

Was Peter , who wrote some of the Bible, born again? Yes

Agreed.


Did Peter according to Paul, have an experience where he was called out for being a hypocrite? i believe so, but i must find the passage

True.


Did Peter commit hypocrisy?? hmmm

His flesh did.


is hypocrisy a sin??

Everything is permissible, but not all things are profitable. So, no, not to one who is born again.


i think i know what your theology is so even if you agree with all those points you would most likely answer that Peter did not sin but his flesh did. I see where you are coming from but i hold a different interpretation. at least we agree on security lol

Agreed.

Sirus
Dec 25th 2008, 02:47 AM
i
hmmmm.. i dont know the passage but here is something to think about

Was Peter , who wrote some of the Bible, born again? Yes

Did Peter according to Paul, have an experience where he was called out for being a hypocrite? i believe so, but i must find the passage

Did Peter commit hypocrisy?? hmmm

is hypocrisy a sin??

i think i know what your theology is so even if you agree with all those points you would most likely answer that Peter did not sin but his flesh did. I see where you are coming from but i hold a different interpretation. at least we agree on security :hug: lol

well Paul said (in the book he pointed out Peter's error) those that put themselves back under the law have fallen from grace and Christ was of no effect to them. Hebrews states those that do cannot get it back. Obviously Peter had not done so in his heart just in his flesh. Horrible in that he did so out of concern for what man thought but still, there is no indication that Peter denied the faith and actually in his heart, put himself back under the law. Hebrews 5-6 doesn't even imply that anyone ever lost salvation! It's simply telling Hebrew's to quit running to the alter ever week and getting saved over and over (repentance and faith) and grow up into perfection.

SeattleSun
Dec 25th 2008, 03:46 AM
i agree with most of what you said, but let me just tighten it up a bit, before a NOSAS supporter screams: liscence!

yes it is possible for a believer to choose to sin and maybe even spend a period of time struggling with a sin, however, a true Christian will inevitably experience sanctification until the dau Christ returns. What this means is that the course of a persons life will be directed toward behaving just like Christ their master.

there is a holiness without which none will see the Lord. You will know them by their fruits

someone can claim to be saved and struggling in one area but showing fruit in others

however if we claim to be Christians and continually live in unrepentant sins it is most likely that person is not a Christian

i think you mean the same thing but i just wanted to magnify it

Ha! The basis of my "on no!". :D

Absolutely agree, and appreciate the artful amplification. I look back at my own walk (and I really like application), and its been one of insight and enlightment along with "don't wanna". There are times when I want to go back into the world, because I was there for most of my 55 years. I went through a short season of utter rebellion. It was awful.

Repentance ... but I'm saying that He knows the heart, its not ours' to judge. The heart may belong to Him but not repentant enough for "us" and not enough for the crowns, IOW the rebellious sheep.

He never, ever stopped working in me. How He worked in me is hard to explain. :)

I believe His providence came into play ... things happened that I didn't like but accepted and people were put in front of me and people were taken away from me. Some to speak into me and me to speak into them. Don't hinder the Spirit.

I could take this thread really OT, but I would like to hear others' opinions (being a reformed Calvinist): Does God keep you alive until you confess Christ is Lord?

Butch5
Dec 25th 2008, 05:56 AM
Partaker---Can a believer, have an evil heart of unbelief?

Yes


Partaker--- [/font][/color]

This speaks of being His house.
Are you a house?
Am I a house?

[left][color=#000000]

Yes,

Hebrews 3:6 ( KJV ) [FONT=Verdana]6But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.


Partaker---It does not speak of believers becoming unbelievers.
If there be any among you (in the house) having an evil heart of unbelief.


Hebrews 3:1 ( KJV ) 1Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

How then would you describe a believer?


Partaker---There are many today in churches who have an evil heart of belief. When persecution comes, they may depart from the living God. The living God dwells in the Body of Christ.

What does this have to do with the passage?

reformedct
Dec 25th 2008, 04:49 PM
Yes


Yes,

Hebrews 3:6 ( KJV ) 6But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.



Hebrews 3:1 ( KJV ) 1Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

How then would you describe a believer?



What does this have to do with the passage?

Butch, this is the mistake in your interpreting:

1.Paul is talking to the brethren
2. Paul says make sure you dont have an evil heart of unbelief

Conclusion: Real brethren can have a heart of unbelief.

It is logical, but it is assuming that Paul could not just be issuing a warning to the brethren, and a call to self examination to people in the audience who think they are true brethren and not. Your conclusion completely throws out this possibility. You interpret it in one way.

You also assume there are no false brethren in the audience. You assume when he is talking, the audience is full of 100% born again believers. Do you think the Corinthians were all true born again believers? sleeping with their step parents? but yet the letter is addressed to THE CHURCH IN CORINTH IN CHRIST JESUS. Just because Paul speaks in an inclusive way, you are assuming that whenever he does he is talking specifically to all born-again believers. This is not the case. He address them as brethren, partakers in Christ, but that doesnt mean we say, OK HE IS TALKING TO ONLY THE BRETHREN SO TRUE BRETHEN CAN HAVE AN EVIL HEART OF UNBELIEF, EVEN THOUGH THAT WHICH IS BORN OF SPIRIT IS SPIRIT AND THE BELIEVER HAS A NEW HEART

sorry thats wrong bro

Scubadude
Dec 26th 2008, 01:48 AM
"MAKE SURE YOU ARE A TRUE BELIEVER NOT JUST IN CHURCH PHYSICALLY BUT CONNECTED TO CHRIST FROM YOUR HEART

there is no such thing as an unbelieveing Christain, it is contradictory



Not sure you were trying to do this, but you helped me see more clearly how Christians are saved and working out their salvation, received into God's kingdom and striving toward that which Christ calls us, the already and not yet of being a Christian.

Yes! Of course there is such a thing as an unbelieving Christian. I'm not going to reiterate the basics of spiritual milk, you know them. But, unbelief has an effect of keeping us from comfort in our knowledge and being (and arrogance, which God hates). We will never see the ends of God's creative wisdom, so....... dive in! He's big enough to handle your unbelief. Amen?

Butch5
Dec 26th 2008, 02:17 AM
Not sure you were trying to do this, but you helped me see more clearly how Christians are saved and working out their salvation, received into God's kingdom and striving toward that which Christ calls us, the already and not yet of being a Christian.

Yes! Of course there is such a thing as an unbelieving Christian. I'm not going to reiterate the basics of spiritual milk, you know them. But, unbelief has an effect of keeping us from comfort in our knowledge and being (and arrogance, which God hates). We will never see the ends of God's creative wisdom, so....... dive in! He's big enough to handle your unbelief. Amen?

A Christian is a follower of Christ, why would one follow Christ if the do not believe?

Thaddaeus
Dec 26th 2008, 02:22 AM
I believe it is when a believer chooses this world over Christ,

Hebrews 3:1-12 ( KJV ) 1Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; 2Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. 3For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. 4For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God. 5And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; 6But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.



7Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, 8Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: 9When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. 10Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. 11So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) 12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Notice what He says, Holy brethren, Partakers of hte heavenly calling, the apostles and high priest of "our" profession, Jesus Christ. These people were Christians, they were believers. Yet the writer tells them, take heed, brethren, lest their be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.


Butch I don't want to go another round with you on this but God just showed me something, and I got to point it out "These people were Christians, they were believers" your quote, then how can they have an evil heart unbelief, you either believe or not , whoever was preaching, they were preaching to crowd some believers some with an evil heart of unbelief. look at your own verse. he didn't know who the believer or unbelievers were much as when we preach today we will preach to believers then we will do an invitation for the unbelievers, now I am with I have always been taught that when the word brethren was use that they were talking to christians but here may be an exception, for I think that in verse one He said Holy Brethren (Christians), then it is clear that he Is preaching to a jewish crowd by verse nine 9When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. which were also brethren because they were jews. and verse 12 is telling the story of the jewish nation they believed in God but fell away because of their unbelief in Jesus but then again God didn't blind their eyes so that they would be cast into hell but so that we the gentiles could be brought in, Ro 11:11 (http://bibleforums.org/ro+11:11)I say then, Have they stumbled that they should FALL? God forbid: but rather through their FALL salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Ro 11:25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.Ro 11:26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:so if we can learn anything that it is clear from scriptures,that a falling away from or even a departing is not a everlasting falling or departing we may depart or fall but God will restore if we were truly one of His, ewven as He did when he caused the Jews to fall, be not ignorant of this Mystery. God is greater than any man and no respects of person, if he can restores jews when they fall away , he can cetainly restore me, Thank you Jesus!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thaddaeus
Dec 26th 2008, 02:36 AM
A Christian is a follower of Christ, why would one follow Christ if the do not believe?
so that they can betray him , watch for the wolf in sheep clothing Butch do you really believe that ever one that follows Christ to the house of God is saved ?

Butch5
Dec 26th 2008, 02:36 AM
Reformed---Butch, this is the mistake in your interpreting:

1.Paul is talking to the brethren
2. Paul says make sure you dont have an evil heart of unbelief

Conclusion: Real brethren can have a heart of unbelief.

It is logical, but it is assuming that Paul could not just be issuing a warning to the brethren, and a call to self examination to people in the audience who think they are true brethren and not. Your conclusion completely throws out this possibility. You interpret it in one way.



Therein lies your problem, the writer is giving a warning to the brethren, however you assume because he writes to the church at Corinth, he is writing to everyone. However, he clearly states that he is speaking to the believers, so, if there are unbelievers in the church it makes no difference. You see, you want to say that this is to unbelievers in the church, yet the writer is clearly writing to believers, he calls them holy brethren, he says consider the Apostle and High Priest of "our" confession. First you assume there are unbelievers in this church, please show Scripture. Second, this church was young as were the believers, as was Christianity. They did not have all of the writings we have to know how the church is to act. So just because these believers were not living according to Paul's teaching doesn't mean they were not saved. Unless you can find Scripture that says these were not believers then your interpretation of this passage is based on assumption and not Scripture.



Reformed---You also assume there are no false brethren in the audience. You assume when he is talking, the audience is full of 100% born again believers. Do you think the Corinthians were all true born again believers? sleeping with their step parents? but yet the letter is addressed to THE CHURCH IN CORINTH IN CHRIST JESUS. Just because Paul speaks in an inclusive way, you are assuming that whenever he does he is talking specifically to all born-again believers. This is not the case. He address them as brethren, partakers in Christ, but that doesnt mean we say, OK HE IS TALKING TO ONLY THE BRETHREN SO TRUE BRETHEN CAN HAVE AN EVIL HEART OF UNBELIEF, EVEN THOUGH THAT WHICH IS BORN OF SPIRIT IS SPIRIT AND THE BELIEVER HAS A NEW HEART

sorry thats wrong bro


Well my friend only believers are holy brethren, only believers are partakers of the holy Spirit. Like I said, unless you can show Scripture that states these are unbelievers you are basing you interpretation on assumption. I won't do that.

BCF
Dec 26th 2008, 02:39 AM
Yukerboy

What exactly do you mean when you say......Peter committed hypocrisy in the flesh?

God Bless,

Dave

Butch5
Dec 26th 2008, 02:42 AM
so that they can betray him , watch for the wolf in sheep clothing Butch do you really believe that ever one that follows Christ to the house of God is saved ?

A follower of Christ is not a person who goes to church. It is a person who lays down their life for Christ, who gives up their will, for Christ, who suffers in this world for Christ, who renounces worldly gain for Christ, Who loves his neighbor more than himself, who puts the things of God before things of himself. Tell me who as an unbeliever will do these things.

Thaddaeus
Dec 26th 2008, 05:27 AM
A follower of Christ is not a person who goes to church. It is a person who lays down their life for Christ, who gives up their will, for Christ, who suffers in this world for Christ, who renounces worldly gain for Christ, Who loves his neighbor more than himself, who puts the things of God before things of himself. Tell me who as an unbeliever will do these things.


Ok you ready Lu 6:16 (http://bibleforums.org/lu+6:16)And JUDAS the brother of James, and JUDAS Iscariot, which also was the traitor.
Ac 1:25 (http://bibleforums.org/ac+1:25)That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which JUDAS by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.Let me write in in big leters so you can see it
JUDAS

if he will do it others will do it

reformedct
Dec 26th 2008, 05:58 AM
Therein lies your problem, the writer is giving a warning to the brethren, however you assume because he writes to the church at Corinth, he is writing to everyone. However, he clearly states that he is speaking to the believers, so, if there are unbelievers in the church it makes no difference. You see, you want to say that this is to unbelievers in the church, yet the writer is clearly writing to believers, he calls them holy brethren, he says consider the Apostle and High Priest of "our" confession. First you assume there are unbelievers in this church, please show Scripture. Second, this church was young as were the believers, as was Christianity. They did not have all of the writings we have to know how the church is to act. So just because these believers were not living according to Paul's teaching doesn't mean they were not saved. Unless you can find Scripture that says these were not believers then your interpretation of this passage is based on assumption and Scripture.




Well my friend only believers are holy brethren, only believers are partakers of the holy Spirit. Like I said, unless you can show Scripture that states these are unbelievers you are basing you interpretation on assumption. I won't do that.


you are right. i am assuming there are unbelievers there. im not sure there are so i will not use that as part of my point.

However lets just look at the passage and keep it to the Scriptures

He is talking to brethren: check

He is warning the brethren about an evil heart: check

The passage says a true believer can have an evil heart: no check

If you are going strictly off scripture, then all you have is

a. brethren
b. a warning

if you take that and then come to the conclusion that a true believer can have an evil heart you are adding something that has not been said in this passage. all that is there is a warning. you might say, well its obvious what he is warning against can happen to the true believer. Makes sense, only problem is that it doesnt say that. all there is is a warning if you would like to stick to just scripture

there are many passages that warn believers to perservere, there are also those that say partakers of Christ DO perservere.

Butch5
Dec 26th 2008, 10:43 PM
A follower of Christ is not a person who goes to church. It is a person who lays down their life for Christ, who gives up their will, for Christ, who suffers in this world for Christ, who renounces worldly gain for Christ, Who loves his neighbor more than himself, who puts the things of God before things of himself. Tell me who as an unbeliever will do these things.


Ok you ready Lu 6:16 (http://bibleforums.org/lu+6:16)And JUDAS the brother of James, and JUDAS Iscariot, which also was the traitor.
Ac 1:25 (http://bibleforums.org/ac+1:25)That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which JUDAS by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.Let me write in in big leters so you can see it
JUDAS

if he will do it others will do it


And what Scripture do you have, that states Judas was never saved??????

Butch5
Dec 26th 2008, 10:45 PM
you are right. i am assuming there are unbelievers there. im not sure there are so i will not use that as part of my point.

However lets just look at the passage and keep it to the Scriptures

He is talking to brethren: check

He is warning the brethren about an evil heart: check

The passage says a true believer can have an evil heart: no check

If you are going strictly off scripture, then all you have is

a. brethren
b. a warning

if you take that and then come to the conclusion that a true believer can have an evil heart you are adding something that has not been said in this passage. all that is there is a warning. you might say, well its obvious what he is warning against can happen to the true believer. Makes sense, only problem is that it doesnt say that. all there is is a warning if you would like to stick to just scripture

there are many passages that warn believers to perservere, there are also those that say partakers of Christ DO perservere.

well, my friend, have at it. You have to answer for your doctrine, not I. Just remember, God holds teachers accountable for what they teach.