PDA

View Full Version : Can a true Christian lose the Holy Spirit



Pages : [1] 2

reformedct
Dec 24th 2008, 07:02 PM
I opened a thread similar to this but i guess it was too complex so lets keep it simple.

Can a born again(by the spirit not just a "decision") believer lose the Holy Spirit under the New Covenant

if so, provide Scripture

if not, provide Scripture

also when referencing the Spirits actions in the OT make sure you have Scripture as well that shows how that action is seen/done under the New Covenant

reformedct
Dec 24th 2008, 08:56 PM
lol i guess i will start off

here is one of the most popular passages used to illustrate the leaving of the Holy Spirit:

Hebrews 10:26-31

26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


does this passage prove that the Holy Spirit will leave a born again Christian?

BCF
Dec 24th 2008, 10:03 PM
lol i guess i will start off

here is one of the most popular passages used to illustrate the leaving of the Holy Spirit:

Hebrews 10:26-31

26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


does this passage prove that the Holy Spirit will leave a born again Christian?

No...not IMO. But who am I. I'm a sinner myself. Just b/c we have received the knowledge of Truth....that does not mean that we will not go on and sin no more. We are born into sin, and we live in this life with a carnal body. We will never be able to get away from sin....until God calls us home. We are save by Grace through Faith, which all comes from the Love that God has for each and everyone of us even though we do sin. That's why we need Him. That's why without Him we are nothing.

God Bless,

Dave

Butch5
Dec 24th 2008, 10:35 PM
lol i guess i will start off

here is one of the most popular passages used to illustrate the leaving of the Holy Spirit:

Hebrews 10:26-31

26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


does this passage prove that the Holy Spirit will leave a born again Christian?

Yes, this Scripture shows that a believer can turn from God. Notice in the Scripture, this person "was" sanctified, they "were" set apart for God. And yet they turned back to the world.

BroRog
Dec 24th 2008, 10:51 PM
I opened a thread similar to this but i guess it was too complex so lets keep it simple.

Can a born again(by the spirit not just a "decision") believer lose the Holy Spirit under the New Covenant

if so, provide Scripture

if not, provide Scripture

also when referencing the Spirits actions in the OT make sure you have Scripture as well that shows how that action is seen/done under the New Covenant

Paul defines a person "in Christ" as a person who has a spirit like Christ. This sanctified spirit is one, among many, of the marks of those who belong to God.

[When] Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. [Since] the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Romans 8:10-11

BCF
Dec 24th 2008, 11:09 PM
Yes, this Scripture shows that a believer can turn from God. Notice in the Scripture, this person "was" sanctified, they "were" set apart for God. And yet they turned back to the world.

Can you name me one Christian, who has not sinned, and turned their back on God?

If so... then what you are saying is that none of us can be saved by Grace through Faith b/c we all sin everyday and turn our backs on God. And we are suppose to be set apart from the world by God.

God Bless,

Dave

Chimon
Dec 24th 2008, 11:34 PM
"And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee." 2 Corinthians 1:21-22

"He who has prepared us for this very thing [heaven] is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee." 2 Corinthians 5:5

"In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory." Ephesians 1:11-14

"do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption." Ephesians 4:30

So, God has predestined Christians to believe in Him, yes? And when they believe in Him, he gives them the Holy Spirit as a guarantee. A guarantee of what? Well, looking at the contexts of these passages, the Holy Spirit is refered to as a guarantee of heaven or the ressurection. So, for the Holy Spirit to leave a Christian, for any reason, would be a breach of God's promised guarantee of heaven. So no, the Holy Spirit never leaves a Christian, because God has so willed that, one someone has become a Christian, the Holy Spirit remain as a guarantee of eternal life, and God does not change his mind.

Secondly, God has given us the Holy Spirit as a seal. In ANE culture, a seal signified ownership or authorship. So, God has claimed us as his own. That which is owned cannot free itself from its owner, only the owner can renounce ownership. So you cannot drive out the Spirit. And God has given us the Spirit as promise, that we are sealed for the day of redemption So God will not retract the Spirit from us, because he has promised that we will bear the Spirit until and for he brings us to the day of redemption.


Thats how I take it. What it says in Hebrews 6 does not have to refer to Christians, only those who have 'tasted of the Spirit.' Nonchristians frequently 'taste' of the Spirit, when he performs miracles, convicts of sin, etc. So I see Heb. 6 as the same as the unforgivable sin that Jesus describes: those nonchristians who encounter the Holy Spirit but want nothing to do with salvation.

The offer of salvation has been extended to them, and rejected. Since they have the fullest revelation of the Spirit one can have outside of Christ, and they have rejected it, what else could be done to save them?

Yukerboy
Dec 24th 2008, 11:41 PM
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

If they went out from us, they were never of us, for if they were of us, they would have remained with us, thus perseverance of those who are born again must be.

If a person is born again, he will be endure and persevere until the end for if he fails, God fails, for God makes him stand, will and work according to God's good purposes.

My God never fails. Perhaps another person's god might fail.

I also have other verses to show this, but they may be taken out of context. :rolleyes:

For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible.

whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned

he has crossed over from death to life

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.;

The sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. But they will never follow a stranger; I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.;

there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.;

Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.;

for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.;

He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.;

he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.;

it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ.

He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.;

it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.;

Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession;

he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.;

When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.;

May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.;

by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy;

we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.;

who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.;

No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.;

Everyone born of God overcomes the world.;

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.;

anyone born of God does not sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him.

Care for more?

reformedct
Dec 25th 2008, 12:02 AM
Yes, this Scripture shows that a believer can turn from God. Notice in the Scripture, this person "was" sanctified, they "were" set apart for God. And yet they turned back to the world.


i appreciate your response.

Yes, it is clear that a "believer" can turn from God

However, my question is not can a "believer" turn from God or fall from faith/grace

my question is specifically: Will the Holy Spirit leave a true born again believer under the New Covenant. please provide scripture and explanation

the key phrase in this passage is which "he was sanctified"

i believe sanctified also means set apart. could it also be interpreted that this person was simply set apart by physically being among the physical gatherings of the church, similar to this verse?:

2nd Peter 2:17-22

17 These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved. 18 For, speaking loud boasts of folly, they entice by sensual passions of the flesh those who are barely escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves [6] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=2+Peter+2#f6) of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved. 20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”



notice it says they have escaped the defilements of the world thru their knowledge of Jesus Christ, but turn from the holy commandment. It does not say that they are true believers, they simply were "sanctified" for a time. it seems that sanctification in this sense is simply refferring to people who walk among true believers then leave the faith

notice the emphasis on their knowledge of the word and the holy commandment, but no trust or dedication to that commandment


also a clue in the hebrew passage is this: profaned the blood of the covenant. other translations read: counted the blood of the covenant as a common thing. it seems this is a person who does not cherish the Lord Jesus


either way lets not forget the main question:

is there any Scripture that clearly states in word or concept that a true born again believer can lose the Holy Spirit

i dont believe this passage clearly states a true believer is being talked about and it also does not say the Spirit left that person. it says He was outraged. thats all. we cannot read things into the passage

reformedct
Dec 25th 2008, 12:10 AM
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

If they went out from us, they were never of us, for if they were of us, they would have remained with us, thus perseverance of those who are born again must be.

If a person is born again, he will be endure and persevere until the end for if he fails, God fails, for God makes him stand, will and work according to God's good purposes.

My God never fails. Perhaps another person's god might fail.

I also have other verses to show this, but they may be taken out of context. :rolleyes:

For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible.

whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned

he has crossed over from death to life

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.;

The sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. But they will never follow a stranger; I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.;

there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.;

Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.;

for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.;

He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.;

he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.;

it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ.

He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.;

it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.;

Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession;

he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.;

When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.;

May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.;

by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy;

we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.;

who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.;

No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.;

Everyone born of God overcomes the world.;

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.;

anyone born of God does not sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him.

Care for more?

thank you very much for your input. it is because of verses like these that i do not see the Holy Spirit leaving anyone who has been truly born of God. sealed, gurantee, sound pretty secure

it is my understanding THAT THERE IS NO VERSE that clearly states without subjective speculation that the Holy Spirit will leave a born again Christian under the New Covenant ( i want to emphasise new covenant because i am aware the Spirit empowered prophets and kings in the OT and did at times leave them. However we are under a new covenant with the law written on our hearts, born from above by the Spirit)

i have heard about outraging the Spirit of Grace
greiving the Spirit
and quenching the Spirit
but never seen, heard, or read about the Spirit saying bye-bye to the born again under the New Covenant according to the shed blood of the eternal God

but i am open to hear anyone's interpretation of a passage that would prove me wrong

Partaker of Christ
Dec 25th 2008, 12:14 AM
Yes, this Scripture shows that a believer can turn from God. Notice in the Scripture, this person "was" sanctified, they "were" set apart for God. And yet they turned back to the world.

The Hebrews were set apart

reformedct
Dec 25th 2008, 12:20 AM
"And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee." 2 Corinthians 1:21-22

"He who has prepared us for this very thing [heaven] is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee." 2 Corinthians 5:5

"In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory." Ephesians 1:11-14

"do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption." Ephesians 4:30

So, God has predestined Christians to believe in Him, yes? And when they believe in Him, he gives them the Holy Spirit as a guarantee. A guarantee of what? Well, looking at the contexts of these passages, the Holy Spirit is refered to as a guarantee of heaven or the ressurection. So, for the Holy Spirit to leave a Christian, for any reason, would be a breach of God's promised guarantee of heaven. So no, the Holy Spirit never leaves a Christian, because God has so willed that, one someone has become a Christian, the Holy Spirit remain as a guarantee of eternal life, and God does not change his mind.

Secondly, God has given us the Holy Spirit as a seal. In ANE culture, a seal signified ownership or authorship. So, God has claimed us as his own. That which is owned cannot free itself from its owner, only the owner can renounce ownership. So you cannot drive out the Spirit. And God has given us the Spirit as promise, that we are sealed for the day of redemption So God will not retract the Spirit from us, because he has promised that we will bear the Spirit until and for he brings us to the day of redemption.


Thats how I take it. What it says in Hebrews 6 does not have to refer to Christians, only those who have 'tasted of the Spirit.' Nonchristians frequently 'taste' of the Spirit, when he performs miracles, convicts of sin, etc. So I see Heb. 6 as the same as the unforgivable sin that Jesus describes: those nonchristians who encounter the Holy Spirit but want nothing to do with salvation.

The offer of salvation has been extended to them, and rejected. Since they have the fullest revelation of the Spirit one can have outside of Christ, and they have rejected it, what else could be done to save them?

very good points. it seems that outraging the Spirit of grace is the same as blaspheming the Holy Spirit, aka the unpardonable sin, aka rejecting Christ and rejecting the calling of the Holy Spirit aka rejecting the Gospel

a true Christian has all sins forgiven. not 50% of sin, 85% or 99.9%, but all. Not sins before 5pm today only, or just the sins before they got saved, and if any man should sin, we have an advocate. Jesus is constantly making intercession on our behalf, as Job made intercession for his foolish friends. where there is no sin there is no need for intercession. there is no unpardonable sin for those who will be presented blameless before the Father

Partaker of Christ
Dec 25th 2008, 12:30 AM
Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for *he* hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance (irrevocable)

reformedct
Dec 25th 2008, 12:53 AM
so then, it seems the Scriptures do not teach that the Spirit will leave the true new-covenant believer, but rather the Christian has been bought, sealed, and recieved the Spirit as a guatantee

if anyone has scripture to refute this without subjectively reading things into the text, please post

however i think it is clear that the Spirit will not leave the believer. that being answered, it leads to another logical question:

can a born again believer, with the Spirit of God in them, go to hell? the Bible teaches that the Spirit is our guarantee and has sealed us. So is it possible to still go to hell even though one has been sealed?

if not,

i think it is safe to conclude that salvation is secure, not based on perserverance, or falling away from faith, or turning from God, but on the seal of the Holy Spirit, the gurantee of our inheretence.

In order to disprove OSAS, we must first prove the Spirit will leave us under the new covenant, if it does, case closed. NOSAS wins.

If it does not leave us as Scripture seems to say, in order to disprove OSAS, we must say that a person sealed by the Spirit can still go to hell while he is sealed, which i do not believe there are any scriptures

or

somehow someway, maybe during the judgement, the Lord will remove the seal at the end of time. i also donot know of any scriptures that would support this notion


As a recap, let us remember the question at hand.

It is not can a believer turn from God. we see many "believers" turn from God, people who "believe" for awhile BUT HAVE NO ROOT.

the question however is can the Holy Spirit under the new covenant leave a born again believer.

i have yet to read a scripture or passage that clearly promotes this idea?:saint:

Sirus
Dec 25th 2008, 03:01 AM
my question is specifically: Will the Holy Spirit leave a true born again believer under the New Covenant. please provide scripture and explanation
another

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

I didn't see it posted. If it has been I apologize.

Butch5
Dec 25th 2008, 06:05 AM
Can you name me one Christian, who has not sinned, and turned their back on God?

If so... then what you are saying is that none of us can be saved by Grace through Faith b/c we all sin everyday and turn our backs on God. And we are suppose to be set apart from the world by God.

God Bless,

Dave

I didn't say turn your back on God. I said a believer can turn from God. A believer can choose to no longer follow Christ.

Butch5
Dec 25th 2008, 06:12 AM
"And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee." 2 Corinthians 1:21-22

"He who has prepared us for this very thing [heaven] is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee." 2 Corinthians 5:5

"In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory." Ephesians 1:11-14

"do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption." Ephesians 4:30

So, God has predestined Christians to believe in Him, yes? And when they believe in Him, he gives them the Holy Spirit as a guarantee. A guarantee of what? Well, looking at the contexts of these passages, the Holy Spirit is refered to as a guarantee of heaven or the ressurection. So, for the Holy Spirit to leave a Christian, for any reason, would be a breach of God's promised guarantee of heaven. So no, the Holy Spirit never leaves a Christian, because God has so willed that, one someone has become a Christian, the Holy Spirit remain as a guarantee of eternal life, and God does not change his mind.

Secondly, God has given us the Holy Spirit as a seal. In ANE culture, a seal signified ownership or authorship. So, God has claimed us as his own. That which is owned cannot free itself from its owner, only the owner can renounce ownership. So you cannot drive out the Spirit. And God has given us the Spirit as promise, that we are sealed for the day of redemption So God will not retract the Spirit from us, because he has promised that we will bear the Spirit until and for he brings us to the day of redemption.


Thats how I take it. What it says in Hebrews 6 does not have to refer to Christians, only those who have 'tasted of the Spirit.' Nonchristians frequently 'taste' of the Spirit, when he performs miracles, convicts of sin, etc. So I see Heb. 6 as the same as the unforgivable sin that Jesus describes: those nonchristians who encounter the Holy Spirit but want nothing to do with salvation.

The offer of salvation has been extended to them, and rejected. Since they have the fullest revelation of the Spirit one can have outside of Christ, and they have rejected it, what else could be done to save them?

It seems you have overlooked a simple point.

Hebrews 3:1 ( KJV ) 1Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

The writer was writing to Christians, Not fake believers in the church, he says the Apostle and High Priest of "our" confession. So Hebrews 6 is speaking of believers.

Butch5
Dec 25th 2008, 06:48 AM
i appreciate your response.

Yes, it is clear that a "believer" can turn from God

However, my question is not can a "believer" turn from God or fall from faith/grace

my question is specifically: Will the Holy Spirit leave a true born again believer under the New Covenant. please provide scripture and explanation

the key phrase in this passage is which "he was sanctified"

i believe sanctified also means set apart. could it also be interpreted that this person was simply set apart by physically being among the physical gatherings of the church, similar to this verse?:

2nd Peter 2:17-22

17 These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved. 18 For, speaking loud boasts of folly, they entice by sensual passions of the flesh those who are barely escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves [6] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=2+Peter+2#f6) of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved. 20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”



notice it says they have escaped the defilements of the world thru their knowledge of Jesus Christ, but turn from the holy commandment. It does not say that they are true believers, they simply were "sanctified" for a time. it seems that sanctification in this sense is simply refferring to people who walk among true believers then leave the faith

notice the emphasis on their knowledge of the word and the holy commandment, but no trust or dedication to that commandment


also a clue in the hebrew passage is this: profaned the blood of the covenant. other translations read: counted the blood of the covenant as a common thing. it seems this is a person who does not cherish the Lord Jesus


either way lets not forget the main question:

is there any Scripture that clearly states in word or concept that a true born again believer can lose the Holy Spirit

i dont believe this passage clearly states a true believer is being talked about and it also does not say the Spirit left that person. it says He was outraged. thats all. we cannot read things into the passage

Reformed,

I think you are reading into the passage. Where does it say the Spirit was outraged. Be careful to avoid proof texting, it gets people into much misunderstanding. You need to look at the Scripture as a whole. Let me ash you, do you think the holy Spirit will remain in a person who rejects Christ? The verse you quoted from 2 Peter 2, go back and read the entire chapter. Notice Peter says of these people, they have forsaken the right way. These are people who have known and walked in the right way, yet they chose to forsake the right way and follow after unrighteousness. This is speaking of Christians, they had escaped the pollutions of this world, how? Because they had walked in the right way. Peter says if they get entangles in the world again and are overcome, the end is worse than the beginning.

BCF
Dec 25th 2008, 02:34 PM
I didn't say turn your back on God. I said a believer can turn from God. A believer can choose to no long follow Christ.

Although I can agree that one can choose to no longer follow God/Christ. I do not see the difference between someone no longer following God/Christ, and turning their back on God/Christ?

I am very happly married and praise God for my wife all the time. But if one day I let down my guard to the satan, and choose that I now longer what to follow life with my loving wife by my side, and I leave her. Did I not turn my back on my wife and our relationship, and go another way? I believe that I did. So I really don't see any difference in what you are saying my friend.

May God Bless you and your family on this Glorious Day that God has set aside for us, with the Birth of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

God Bless

Dave

Yukerboy
Dec 25th 2008, 02:51 PM
Butch, either all those verses I posted are wrong, or you are.

we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved

I agree we can believe for a while and be unsaved, but that person never had salvation. If a person did, then the promises God makes in His word are of no effect. God would be a liar.

He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ

These are those who are born again. Either God will keep you strong until the end, or you were never born again. If God doesn't keep those who are born again strong until the end, then Paul lied.

whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life

There is never talk of crossing over from life to death. You either have eternal life, or you don't. There is no such thing as having eternal life for a little while. If that were so, then it wasn't eternal life, but temporary.

it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ

My God can't fail. Can yours?

by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy

Those who are being made holy have been made perfect by Christ's sacrifice. Does one made perfect fall? If so, then they were not made perfect, but fallible.

Butch5
Dec 25th 2008, 03:43 PM
Although I can agree that one can choose to no longer follow God/Christ. I do not see the difference between someone no longer following God/Christ, and turning their back on God/Christ?

I am very happly married and praise God for my wife all the time. But if one day I let down my guard to the satan, and choose that I now longer what to follow life with my loving wife by my side, and I leave her. Did I not turn my back on my wife and our relationship, and go another way? I believe that I did. So I really don't see any difference in what you are saying my friend.

May God Bless you and your family on this Glorious Day that God has set aside for us, with the Birth of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

God Bless

Dave


BCF,

I may have misunderstood you. I thought you meant to temporarily turn your back on God, I was speaking of a permanent turning away.

reformedct
Dec 25th 2008, 04:18 PM
BCF,

I may have misunderstood you. I thought you meant to temporarily turn your back on God, I was speaking of a permanent turning away.


when i said outraged the Spirit i was cross referencing to the verse in Hebrews i apologize.

You said, would the Spirit remain in one who has rejected Christ? that is a good question, however if you would first answer my question with Scripture to back it up:

Will the Holy Spirit leave a true born again believer under the new covenant

it sounds logical that the Spirit would "leave" one who rejects Christ, but i believe the bible refers to those people as those who "have no root" who believe for a while then fall away.


and you are correct in that letter Christians were being addressed, but just because he uses language like, brethren, doesnt mean that everyone in that church is truly a believer. Remember these letters were to churches. I dont believe Paul was assuming that ervy single person in the Church was a genuine believer, which is in fact why he constantly warns people to examine themselves, and to perservere. Not because if they dont they will lose their salvation(unless you read that into the text), but rather to make their calling and election sure.

Good pastors always tell their "brethren" to keep an eye on their hearts.

The text does not say, make sure your believing heart has not turned cold nd changed into an unbelieving heart. He simply says make sure you dont have an evil unbelieving heart. It is a call for self-examination, not possible damnation for the true believer


also you still have not shown me any verse stating the Spirit will leave the true believer

the verses we have discussed illustrate people who were "sanctified/set apart for a time", or "escaped the pollutions of this world by KNOWLEDGE of the Lord Jesus Christ", but then turn from the Holy Commandment. They do not clearly say that these are true believers, just people who have come under the knowledge of the Lord and maybe temporarily believe.

As i said it seems consistent with the one who hears the word with joy, "but has NO ROOT"

you still have not provided verses that clearly say the true believer will be abandoned by the Holy Spirit, by whom the Bible explicitly says is the seal unto the day of redemption and the guarantee of our inheritance

reformedct
Dec 25th 2008, 04:28 PM
Reformed,

I think you are reading into the passage. Where does it say the Spirit was outraged. Be careful to avoid proof texting, it gets people into much misunderstanding. You need to look at the Scripture as a whole. Let me ash you, do you think the holy Spirit will remain in a person who rejects Christ? The verse you quoted from 2 Peter 2, go back and read the entire chapter. Notice Peter says of these people, they have forsaken the right way. These are people who have known and walked in the right way, yet they chose to forsake the right way and follow after unrighteousness. This is speaking of Christians, they had escaped the pollutions of this world, how? Because they had walked in the right way. Peter says if they get entangles in the world again and are overcome, the end is worse than the beginning.


its funny you say dont read into the text, when the text does not ever call these people true born again Christians. It says they temporarily escaped the pollutions of the world. It says they have KNOWLEDGE of Jesus (as does the devil) it says they then go back to the world. it says the turn from the COMMANDMENT. (notice it never says they obeyed the commandment, unless you read that in also). IT NEVER SAYS: they trust Jesus. A christian trusts in Christ and is born again. Just because the letter is addressed to the Christian church, doesnt mean every illustration given by the writer is about a genuine believer, unless you also read that in

BroRog
Dec 25th 2008, 04:42 PM
Let me ash you, do you think the holy Spirit will remain in a person who rejects Christ?

Who says that a man who rejects Christ ever had the Holy Spirit in him?

BroRog
Dec 25th 2008, 05:32 PM
It seems you have overlooked a simple point.

Hebrews 3:1 ( KJV ) 1Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

The writer was writing to Christians, Not fake believers in the church, he says the Apostle and High Priest of "our" confession. So Hebrews 6 is speaking of believers.

Skip down to verse 14.

For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end . . .

By definition, a man can only be considered a "partaker" if he holds fast to the end. If he doesn't hold fast to the end, he never was a "partaker."

Now lets take a FULL look at Hebrews 6.

Main Point:
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Analogy:
For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

The text in the main point above should be understood in the light of the analogy that follows. How does the analogy work to help the reader?

Let's break the analogy down into its constituent parts. We have

1. The ground
2. The Rain
3. The Vegetation
4. The Tiller

How do these relate to each other?

The Tiller plows the ground, plants his seed, and waits for the rains to come. When the rains come, the seeds mature to reveal what kind of plants they are. When the plants finally develop, the farmer will see whether his crop seeds survived or whether the field yielded thorns and thistles.

The Ground:

By analogy, the ground is the congregation.

The Rain:

The rain is the preaching of the word of God, the expository teaching, and the manifestation of the Holy Spirit, which punctuates and authenticates the message with displays of power.

The Tiller:

The tiller is the preacher, the teacher, the Evangelist, the Apostle or all of the above. The preacher brings the word of God to the congregation.

The Vegetation:

The vegetation is each individual's reaction to the preaching. Do they accept the word as true truth? Do they make the truth their own? Do they repent and seek reconciliation with God and accept that Jesus is the Messiah come to save us from our sins?

Or do they fall away and find the message uninteresting?

In this analogy, the enlightenment, the tasting of the word, the partaking of the Holy Spirit all fall under the category of "the rain", not "the vegetation" or "the ground." These characteristics belong, not to the person in the congregation, but they belong to the preacher, the teacher, the apostle, etc. To be enlightened by the words of the preacher is like the ground soaking up the rain. But the ground does not represent a blessing to those who serve God unless it produces belief, repentance, and perseverance in faith.

In other words, it's a mistake to think that Paul is talking about those who were indwelt by the Holy Spirit that fell away from the faith. In Paul's analogy, the status of the person in the pew is represented not by the rain, but by the vegetation. Being a partaker of the Holy Spirit, in this passage does not represent a man's coming to belief, it merely represents the preaching of the word with power. The man is the ground who soaks up the rain, he hears the word being preached and comes to an understanding of the message, but it doesn't mean he came to belief or not. Time will tell if the vegetation is a food crop, which represents the perseverance in the faith or thorns and thistles, which represent the falling away.

Scubadude
Dec 26th 2008, 01:27 AM
I opened a thread similar to this but i guess it was too complex so lets keep it simple.

Can a born again(by the spirit not just a "decision") believer lose the Holy Spirit under the New Covenant

if so, provide Scripture

if not, provide Scripture

also when referencing the Spirits actions in the OT make sure you have Scripture as well that shows how that action is seen/done under the New Covenant

I think the question is similar to asking, "Can a man 'lose' his wife?" There may be a devoice, but once you let someone in your heart, they cannot be 'gotten rid of'.

BCF
Dec 26th 2008, 02:45 AM
I think the question is similar to asking, "Can a man 'lose' his wife?" There may be a devoice, but once you let someone in your heart, they cannot be 'gotten rid of'.

Just b/c someone gets married...does not mean that they left their spouse into there heart. That is why they got divorced in the first place.

When some people come to Christ....they only come to him in mind. Not Heart, Soul, and Mind. I think that is were the problem lies.

Butch5
Dec 26th 2008, 04:00 AM
Reformed---when i said outraged the Spirit i was cross referencing to the verse in Hebrews i apologize.

You said, would the Spirit remain in one who has rejected Christ? that is a good question, however if you would first answer my question with Scripture to back it up:

Will the Holy Spirit leave a true born again believer under the new covenant

it sounds logical that the Spirit would "leave" one who rejects Christ, but i believe the bible refers to those people as those who "have no root" who believe for a while then fall away.


You are proof texting my friend, to say I want a specific verse that states just what I want it to say, what if God said it a different way? It seems you are looking for specific wording in order to protect your doctrine.

Is a believer who only believes for a while, any less saved than one who continues in belief? If so, please show Scripture.



Reformed---and you are correct in that letter Christians were being addressed, but just because he uses language like, brethren, doesnt mean that everyone in that church is truly a believer. Remember these letters were to churches. I dont believe Paul was assuming that ervy single person in the Church was a genuine believer, which is in fact why he constantly warns people to examine themselves, and to perservere. Not because if they dont they will lose their salvation(unless you read that into the text), but rather to make their calling and election sure.

Good pastors always tell their "brethren" to keep an eye on their hearts.

The text does not say, make sure your believing heart has not turned cold nd changed into an unbelieving heart. He simply says make sure you dont have an evil unbelieving heart. It is a call for self-examination, not possible damnation for the true believer


My friend, he is writing to believers, notice the words, the Apostle and High Priest of "our" confession, These are believers, believers who "do not" have an evil heart of unbelief, yet he tells them to make sure they don't get an evil heart of unbelief.


also you still have not shown me any verse stating the Spirit will leave the true believer


Reformed---the verses we have discussed illustrate people who were "sanctified/set apart for a time", or "escaped the pollutions of this world by KNOWLEDGE of the Lord Jesus Christ", but then turn from the Holy Commandment. They do not clearly say that these are true believers, just people who have come under the knowledge of the Lord and maybe temporarily believe.

As i said it seems consistent with the one who hears the word with joy, "but has NO ROOT"

you still have not provided verses that clearly say the true believer will be abandoned by the Holy Spirit, by whom the Bible explicitly says is the seal unto the day of redemption and the guarantee of our inheritance


How do you come to the conclusion that someone who believes for a while was not a true believer?

Sirus
Dec 26th 2008, 04:08 AM
Just b/c someone gets married...does not mean that they left their spouse into there heart. That is why they got divorced in the first place.

When some people come to Christ....they only come to him in mind. Not Heart, Soul, and Mind. I think that is were the problem lies.

I think the point was two become one and divorce doesn't change that, which is why death is necessary.

BCF
Dec 26th 2008, 04:22 AM
I think the point was two become one and divorce doesn't change that, which is why death is necessary.

And how does two become one without both parties giving each other their hearts?

Butch5
Dec 26th 2008, 04:28 AM
Butch, either all those verses I posted are wrong, or you are.
we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved
I agree we can believe for a while and be unsaved, but that person never had salvation. If a person did, then the promises God makes in His word are of no effect. God would be a liar.
He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ
These are those who are born again. Either God will keep you strong until the end, or you were never born again. If God doesn't keep those who are born again strong until the end, then Paul lied.
whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life
There is never talk of crossing over from life to death. You either have eternal life, or you don't. There is no such thing as having eternal life for a little while. If that were so, then it wasn't eternal life, but temporary.
it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ
My God can't fail. Can yours?
by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy
Those who are being made holy have been made perfect by Christ's sacrifice. Does one made perfect fall? If so, then they were not made perfect, but fallible.

Hi Yuckerboy,
If you want to discuss this, I am more than willing, however I am not going to pit Scripture against Scripture. If you are willing to look at the entirety of Scripture we can discuss it, otherwise we are just going in circles. Let's start with your opening statement,


Yuckerboy---Butch, either all those verses I posted are wrong, or you are.


You see, you've set up a false dilemma, which is a logical fallacy. You assume that either, the Scripture quotations are wrong or I am wrong. You have not entertained the idea that it may be your interpretation of those Scriptures that is wrong. There are at least three options. It is my contention that your interpretation of those Scriptures is incorrect. As I said if you are willing to discuss this logically, I am more than willing.

Let's look at your next statement,


Yuckerboy---we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved

I agree we can believe for a while and be unsaved, but that person never had salvation. If a person did, then the promises God makes in His word are of no effect. God would be a liar.


Can you show me this unsaved believer in Scripture?
You say that person never had salvation, How do you know this and how can it be shown?

The writer says we are not of those who turn back. Turn back from what? if they were never a believer, then they must be turning back from unbelief. What does that mean? An unbeliever turning back from unbelief?
On the other hand, we know that they are turn back to perdition, or destruction. Judas was a son of perdition, so we know what it mean to turn back to perdition. In this context it is to turn from Christ, as Judas did. The writer says we are not of those who turn back, in order to turn form Christ, one must be in Christ.
If a person Turned from Christ, that does not make God a liar, that is an assumption based on your theology.


Yuckerboy---He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ

These are those who are born again. Either God will keep you strong until the end, or you were never born again. If God doesn't keep those who are born again strong until the end, then Paul lied.


This verse speaks of those who choose to follow Christ, God will strong to the end.
You said these are those who are born again, you are correct, they are born again, they are also those who choose to follow Christ. You said either God will keep you strong until the end or you were never saved. What basis does this statement have in Scripture? Is it not a theological assumption? You said If God doesn't keep those who are born again strong until the end, then Paul lied. On what do you base this assessment?
Paul also said this,

Colossians 1:20-23 ( KJV ) 20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Notice here Paul says basically the same thing, God will bring you throught to the end, "IF" you continue in the faith. He is speaking ot believers, he says they have been reconciled and will be present holy, unblamable, and unreprovable in God's sight, "IF" the continue in the faith. Paul makes it clear that they can, if they choose, not continue in the faith, and he says that God will "ONLY" bring them through to the end "IF" they continue in hte faith. This is a clear passage of Scripture, there is nothing ambiguous here.


Yuckerboy---whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life


There is never talk of crossing over from life to death. You either have eternal life, or you don't. There is no such thing as having eternal life for a little while. If that were so, then it wasn't eternal life, but temporary.

Again this speaks of believers, Also, and of great importance is the fact that John uses the present tense for believe. It reads, who ever hears my words and "IS" believing him who sent me has eternal life. It means the one who is currently believing has eternal life. If one comes to a point where they are no longer believing then they no longer have eternal life. One thing you have to understand, is the assumption of continued belief. Jesus is telling what happens to those who continue to the end. In saying this one has eternal life Jesus is assuming continued belief. In actually eternal life is not given until the end, that is why Paul says in Ephesians that we are sealed with the Spirit which is the earnest or down payment of our inheritance until the day of redemption. It is at the day of redemption that we will receive the promises. Notice Jesus' own words.

Revelation 2:7 ( KJV ) 7He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

There would be no need to eat from the tree of life if one already possessed eternal life.

Genesis 3:22-23 ( KJV ) 22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

This is the same tree of life, which gives eternal life.



Yuckerboy---it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ

My God can't fail. Can yours?


Again, this is a promise to believers, there is nothing here that contradicts anything I have said. It has nothing to do with the ability of God.




Yuckerboy---by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy

Those who are being made holy have been made perfect by Christ's sacrifice. Does one made perfect fall? If so, then they were not made perfect, but fallible


The better translation is, being made perfect. However, that doesn't really matter. The issue is the word perfect, which doesn't mean without flaw, the Greek word means to be made complete or mature or perfect. Obviously the Christian is not without flaw so, that leaves perfect out. The best translation would probably be complete, as through sanctification one is made complete. And yes one who is made complete can fall.

Butch5
Dec 26th 2008, 04:34 AM
its funny you say dont read into the text, when the text does not ever call these people true born again Christians. It says they temporarily escaped the pollutions of the world. It says they have KNOWLEDGE of Jesus (as does the devil) it says they then go back to the world. it says the turn from the COMMANDMENT. (notice it never says they obeyed the commandment, unless you read that in also). IT NEVER SAYS: they trust Jesus. A christian trusts in Christ and is born again. Just because the letter is addressed to the Christian church, doesnt mean every illustration given by the writer is about a genuine believer, unless you also read that in

Reformed,

I not going to play word games, it is clear that you cannot turn form where you have never been. The Scripture says, after the have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of Christ. This is Peter's way of saying they are saved, however, If you would like to deny that because Peter didn't write it the way you wanted it written, that is you decision.

Butch5
Dec 26th 2008, 04:36 AM
Who says that a man who rejects Christ ever had the Holy Spirit in him?

We were speaking of a believer.

Butch5
Dec 26th 2008, 04:44 AM
Skip down to verse 14.

For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end . . .

By definition, a man can only be considered a "partaker" if he holds fast to the end. If he doesn't hold fast to the end, he never was a "partaker."

Now lets take a FULL look at Hebrews 6.

Main Point:
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Analogy:
For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

The text in the main point above should be understood in the light of the analogy that follows. How does the analogy work to help the reader?

Let's break the analogy down into its constituent parts. We have

1. The ground
2. The Rain
3. The Vegetation
4. The Tiller

How do these relate to each other?

The Tiller plows the ground, plants his seed, and waits for the rains to come. When the rains come, the seeds mature to reveal what kind of plants they are. When the plants finally develop, the farmer will see whether his crop seeds survived or whether the field yielded thorns and thistles.

The Ground:

By analogy, the ground is the congregation.

The Rain:

The rain is the preaching of the word of God, the expository teaching, and the manifestation of the Holy Spirit, which punctuates and authenticates the message with displays of power.

The Tiller:

The tiller is the preacher, the teacher, the Evangelist, the Apostle or all of the above. The preacher brings the word of God to the congregation.

The Vegetation:

The vegetation is each individual's reaction to the preaching. Do they accept the word as true truth? Do they make the truth their own? Do they repent and seek reconciliation with God and accept that Jesus is the Messiah come to save us from our sins?

Or do they fall away and find the message uninteresting?

In this analogy, the enlightenment, the tasting of the word, the partaking of the Holy Spirit all fall under the category of "the rain", not "the vegetation" or "the ground." These characteristics belong, not to the person in the congregation, but they belong to the preacher, the teacher, the apostle, etc. To be enlightened by the words of the preacher is like the ground soaking up the rain. But the ground does not represent a blessing to those who serve God unless it produces belief, repentance, and perseverance in faith.

In other words, it's a mistake to think that Paul is talking about those who were indwelt by the Holy Spirit that fell away from the faith. In Paul's analogy, the status of the person in the pew is represented not by the rain, but by the vegetation. Being a partaker of the Holy Spirit, in this passage does not represent a man's coming to belief, it merely represents the preaching of the word with power. The man is the ground who soaks up the rain, he hears the word being preached and comes to an understanding of the message, but it doesn't mean he came to belief or not. Time will tell if the vegetation is a food crop, which represents the perseverance in the faith or thorns and thistles, which represent the falling away.

That's the first time I heard anyone try to get around the passage that way. Sorry, your anology doesn't work.

BCF
Dec 26th 2008, 04:57 AM
Reformed,

I think you are reading into the passage. Where does it say the Spirit was outraged. Be careful to avoid proof texting, it gets people into much misunderstanding. You need to look at the Scripture as a whole. Let me ash you, do you think the holy Spirit will remain in a person who rejects Christ? The verse you quoted from 2 Peter 2, go back and read the entire chapter. Notice Peter says of these people, they have forsaken the right way. These are people who have known and walked in the right way, yet they chose to forsake the right way and follow after unrighteousness. This is speaking of Christians, they had escaped the pollutions of this world, how? Because they had walked in the right way. Peter says if they get entangles in the world again and are overcome, the end is worse than the beginning.

Actually....the whole Chapter of 2 Peter is doing nothing but talking about false teachers. As a matter of fact in the very first verse Peter warns them of this by saying:

2Peter 2:1, "But there were false prophets among, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily (or secretly) shall bring in damnale (or destructive) heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring up themselves swift destruction."

Peter goes on to say in the next verse how they will come to follow these false teachers to believe that what they are saying to be truth. This does not sound like people who are saved to me. They may think that they are saved with there minds....but with there hearts, they are no closer to God then what satan is. Someone who is saved and Born Again through the Spirit of God will not fall for the false teachings of satan. And according to what Peter is saying in 2Peter 2, that is just what happened to these people. So I ask you the question.....were they really saved as much as you have come to believe they were?

If so.....why did Peter need to stress the warning of false teaching the way he did to them throughout the whole Chapter?

God Bless,

Dave

Scubadude
Dec 26th 2008, 05:23 AM
Just b/c someone gets married...does not mean that they left their spouse into there heart. That is why they got divorced in the first place.

When some people come to Christ....they only come to him in mind. Not Heart, Soul, and Mind. I think that is were the problem lies.

I'm just saying that life in the Spirit is very intimate and complex, and simple at the same time. If you are looking for a formula to answer the question, I think you are on the wrong track. Hearts can be so messy, thank God.

reformedct
Dec 26th 2008, 05:29 AM
Reformed,

I not going to play word games, it is clear that you cannot turn form where you have never been. The Scripture says, after the have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of Christ. This is Peter's way of saying they are saved, however, If you would like to deny that because Peter didn't write it the way you wanted it written, that is you decision.

"this is Peters way of saying they are saved"

says who? Butch5?

the Scripture says clearly:
escaped pollutions of the world
knowledge of Jesus
again entangled
turned from holy commandment

it never says they are saved. YOU ARE READING THAT INTO THE SCRIPTURES WHEN THEY DO NOT EVEN SAY THAT

you read things in when you say: "ITS OBVIOUS you have to be in a commandment to turn from it"

do you see how you are making the scripture say things it is not??? Just because in your eyes, "its obvious?"

your just assuming that your interpretation is correct even though the Scripture does not clearly say what you are saying.

also you said the other guys analogy didnt work??

it was Pauls direct analogy in chapter 6? your saying Pauls analogy doesn't work???

I want you to re-read that passage in Hebrews 6. When you can find a verse that CLEARLY states that these people who fall away are true believers, please get back to me

do you see how you are just assuming things into scripture??? look at your comments:

"ITS OBVIOUS THAT..."

"NOPE THAT DOESNT WORK"

"IF you dont want to see it that way.."

these are all coming from Butch5 but not from Scripture


this is why it annoys me when people say you can lose your salvation

they say things like, well if you turn from God you lose it.

But then they cannot prove with Scripture that those who turn are truly saved, in fact scripture says opposite "they went out from us because they were not of us"

matthew94
Dec 26th 2008, 05:52 AM
Can a true Christian lose the Holy Spirit?

Though this is the common wording of such a question, we must begin an answer by questioning the wording itself. The key word is obviously 'lose,' which usually carries an accidental connotation. I don't think many, if any Christians would say we can accidently lose our salvation.

I suggest, therefore, that the inclusion of the word 'lose' in the question is mostly an attempt by calvinists to make the prospect of the NOSAS position seem ridiculous. Once someone actually analyzes the position of NOSAS Christians, they find that the position has nothing to do with 'losing' salvation.

It seems to me that the question is also flawed in how it pictures the Holy Spirit. It borders on indicating that the Holy Spirit has some sort of physicality, like a set of keys, so that it can be lost, so to speak. It fails to recognize that 'having the Holy Spirit' does not refer to acquiring some material possession, but being in a spiritually right relationship with the 3rd Person of the Trinity.

Relationships are dynamic and complex. I'm getting married in 6 days. I love my fiance. Does that mean our relationship is perfect? No. Sometimes I disappoint her. Sometimes our relationship has a bad day. But we love each other. And we persevere. There are ups and downs. But there's a commitment there? Now could I, for some reason, reject that relationship and run off with another woman? Of course. I'd still have a relationship with my fiance, but it'd be a broken one... and it wouldn't involve marriage.

In a similar way, I have a dynamic and complex relationship with the Holy Spirit. It's a teacher/student relationship. It's a leader/follower relationship. Sometimes the relationship has bad days (due to my fallenness), but there's a commitment there. Could I turn my back on that commitment? Of course I could. I'd still have a relationship with the Holy Spirit (how could anyone NOT have SOME relationship with an ever-present Person?), but it wouldn't be one involving salvation.

With these considerations in mind, the re-worded question becomes much more appropriate to answer. Can someone reject a salvific relationship with the Holy Spirit? It seems to me that one obviously could do such a thing. It's a very dumb move, and I don't think it's all that common. More often than not, those who seem to have rejected God probably never entered into saving grace in the first place. But it would be possible to reject saving grace just like it's possible to reject any grace.

BCF
Dec 26th 2008, 06:06 AM
I'm just saying that life in the Spirit is very intimate and complex, and simple at the same time. If you are looking for a formula to answer the question, I think you are on the wrong track. Hearts can be so messy, thank God.

Yes....I can agree on the fact that life with the Spirit is very intimate. As far as complexed....I don't think it is.

Simple to understand....yes. But a formula....there is only one. That would be Faith and Love in Our Lord Jesus.

I was just asking b/c I thought it to be curious that you used a marriage as an illustration....that's all.

God Bless,

Dave

Sirus
Dec 26th 2008, 06:43 AM
Yes, what was the Holy Spirit thinking using marriage as an illustration -body of Christ -joined in spirit to the Lord -two become one? :B

BCF
Dec 26th 2008, 06:54 AM
Yes, what was the Holy Spirit thinking using marriage as an illustration? :B

I don't believe that I was asking Paul the question. Or do I believe that I was questioning anything that Paul says about marriage or his illustrations.

I believe that I was questioning Scubadude why he used marriage as an illustration. The reason I did is b/c their are more who get married without giving there heart to each other....then there are who do. Instead of giving there heart...they give there minds, which is full of nothing but false love from this world. Most who get married today don't even know what love is.....let alone a relationship with God. That is why I made the comments I did.:)

God Bless,

Dave

Connie Sue
Dec 26th 2008, 02:08 PM
Jhn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, (same as Holy Spirit) that he may abide with you for ever;

Jhn 10:28 says...And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.

No you can never lose the Holy Spirit!
You can never "turn your back on God" because he is always with you.
You can't jump out of his hand as I've heard someone say. Jhn 10:28 says...And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

1Chronicles 6:15 says....Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make [them] the members of an harlot? God forbid.
16...What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.

BroRog
Dec 26th 2008, 05:05 PM
That's the first time I heard anyone try to get around the passage that way. Sorry, your anology doesn't work.

Why not? Maybe it's the first time you heard anyone try to make sense of the passage on its own terms, without seeking a proof text for an agenda?

RogerW
Dec 26th 2008, 07:14 PM
Hi Reformed,

What if we ask is it possible for some to profess a false faith? Are there in the universal church those baptized members who think they have the indwelling Spirit, but whose faith, although a mental assent (like the devil) about Who Christ is, have not saving or redeeming faith?

I believe this is center of much confusion...for Scripture is abundantly clear that when we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God, He will never leave nor forsake His own.

Many Blessings,
RW

Scubadude
Dec 26th 2008, 08:28 PM
I believe that I was questioning Scubadude why he used marriage as an illustration. The reason I did is b/c their are more who get married without giving there heart to each other....then there are who do. Instead of giving there heart...they give there minds, which is full of nothing but false love from this world. Most who get married today don't even know what love is.....let alone a relationship with God. That is why I made the comments I did.:)

God Bless,

Dave

And I'm glad you asked.


I have to disagree, though, about your coment on being more who get married and not give their hearts to each other. The fact that some get devoriced dose not mean their hearts were not not 'in it'. I've had a few friends and more aquaintences get devoriced, none of them were casual, or without a lot of suffering. The implication, I think, is that there hearts were very much involved. The relationship is complicated because two people made in the image of the all creative God are learning to die to their selfishness. Maybe that's what you mean by saying the analogy of the relationship with the Holy Spirit is simple? Easy to say, but a life time in learning.

Partaker of Christ
Dec 26th 2008, 08:42 PM
Can a true Christian lose the Holy Spirit?

Though this is the common wording of such a question, we must begin an answer by questioning the wording itself. The key word is obviously 'lose,' which usually carries an accidental connotation. I don't think many, if any Christians would say we can accidently lose our salvation.

I suggest, therefore, that the inclusion of the word 'lose' in the question is mostly an attempt by calvinists to make the prospect of the NOSAS position seem ridiculous. Once someone actually analyzes the position of NOSAS Christians, they find that the position has nothing to do with 'losing' salvation.

It seems to me that the question is also flawed in how it pictures the Holy Spirit. It borders on indicating that the Holy Spirit has some sort of physicality, like a set of keys, so that it can be lost, so to speak. It fails to recognize that 'having the Holy Spirit' does not refer to acquiring some material possession, but being in a spiritually right relationship with the 3rd Person of the Trinity.

Relationships are dynamic and complex. I'm getting married in 6 days. I love my fiance. Does that mean our relationship is perfect? No. Sometimes I disappoint her. Sometimes our relationship has a bad day. But we love each other. And we persevere. There are ups and downs. But there's a commitment there? Now could I, for some reason, reject that relationship and run off with another woman? Of course. I'd still have a relationship with my fiance, but it'd be a broken one... and it wouldn't involve marriage.

In a similar way, I have a dynamic and complex relationship with the Holy Spirit. It's a teacher/student relationship. It's a leader/follower relationship. Sometimes the relationship has bad days (due to my fallenness), but there's a commitment there. Could I turn my back on that commitment? Of course I could. I'd still have a relationship with the Holy Spirit (how could anyone NOT have SOME relationship with an ever-present Person?), but it wouldn't be one involving salvation.

With these considerations in mind, the re-worded question becomes much more appropriate to answer. Can someone reject a salvific relationship with the Holy Spirit? It seems to me that one obviously could do such a thing. It's a very dumb move, and I don't think it's all that common. More often than not, those who seem to have rejected God probably never entered into saving grace in the first place. But it would be possible to reject saving grace just like it's possible to reject any grace.

Hi Matthew94!

You said:
"NOSAS position seem ridiculous"

It is!

Your analogy reflects your POV and not God's. In your analogy you impose a free will option (get out clause), that does not exist.

You can tear up or burn a legal document, but you are still legally bound by it.

Man may believe that they can just walk out of a marriage, and get a divorce. In his eyes he may believe that he is a free man, and can walk into another relationship.
From God's point of view, the man is still married, and will remain so until one of them dies.

The other problem is this; Our relationship is that of a Father and child relationship, not some boyfriend / girlfriend.

Can a Father ever not be a father (even if a child dies)
Can a child ever not be a child (even if the father dies)

matthew94
Dec 26th 2008, 09:18 PM
Hi Matthew94!

Hiya :)


You said:
"NOSAS position seem ridiculous"

It is!

I said it seems ridiculous when worded incorrectly.


Your analogy reflects your POV and not God's.

:) Well you obviously think that. I, of course think my understanding is biblical and YOURS is your own point of view. So stating that doesn't really get us anywhere!


In your analogy you impose a free will option (get out clause), that does not exist.

Hmm.. That's odd. I wonder why the Bible is constantly telling people to obey commands if they are not free to do so.


You can tear up or burn a legal document, but you are still legally bound by it.

Yes, bound to every bit of it. If you don't do your side of the agreement, you're in breech of contract and disqualified from the commitments and promises made by the other party.


Man may believe that they can just walk out of a marriage, and get a divorce. In his eyes he may believe that he is a free man, and can walk into another relationship. From God's point of view, the man is still married, and will remain so until one of them dies.

Well, there is such a thing as a legitimate divorce in God's eyes. But I suppose that is another point. Even if I granted your point, It still makes mine. The person who walks out is still bound to their marriage commitment, but they are no longer in right relationship. They are at odds with the contract. They are opening themselves to the punishments of a broken agreement.


The other problem is this; Our relationship is that of a Father and child relationship, not some boyfriend / girlfriend.

Our relationship with God is multi-faceted. There is a sense in which it is a Father/child relationship. It is also a Husband/bride relationship. It is also a Friend/friend relationship. It seems to me that you get caught up on focusing on 1 analogy per doctrine. But God is too big for that.


Can a Father ever not be a father (even if a child dies)
Can a child ever not be a child (even if the father dies)

A Father can cease to be a father in any meaningful sense, yes. And a child can cease to be one's child in any meaningful sense. Don't let the analogies box you. Truth is illustrated by analogy, not the other way around!

In Christ,
matthew

Butch5
Dec 26th 2008, 09:45 PM
Actually....the whole Chapter of 2 Peter is doing nothing but talking about false teachers. As a matter of fact in the very first verse Peter warns them of this by saying:

2Peter 2:1, "But there were false prophets among, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily (or secretly) shall bring in damnale (or destructive) heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring up themselves swift destruction."

Peter goes on to say in the next verse how they will come to follow these false teachers to believe that what they are saying to be truth. This does not sound like people who are saved to me. They may think that they are saved with there minds....but with there hearts, they are no closer to God then what satan is. Someone who is saved and Born Again through the Spirit of God will not fall for the false teachings of satan. And according to what Peter is saying in 2Peter 2, that is just what happened to these people. So I ask you the question.....were they really saved as much as you have come to believe they were?

If so.....why did Peter need to stress the warning of false teaching the way he did to them throughout the whole Chapter?

God Bless,

Dave

Let me ask you, where does the Bible speak of People who are, not really saved? In the Bible, people are either saved or they are not. The Bible doesn't speak of People who think they are saved. It is those who try to protect their doctrine that have created this person who is "not really saved". The "they were never really saved" person doesn't exist in the Scriptures.

matthew94
Dec 26th 2008, 09:52 PM
The Bible doesn't speak of People who think they are saved.

This is very obviously incorrect!

What about most of Israel...Those who will say "Lord, Lord"... those who said they were Abraham's children but were really the devil's???

Butch5
Dec 26th 2008, 10:16 PM
"
Reformed---
this is Peters way of saying they are saved"

says who? Butch5?

the Scripture says clearly:
escaped pollutions of the world
knowledge of Jesus
again entangled
turned from holy commandment

it never says they are saved. YOU ARE READING THAT INTO THE SCRIPTURES WHEN THEY DO NOT EVEN SAY THAT


As I said, you are proof texting to protect your doctrine.


Reformed---you read things in when you say: "ITS OBVIOUS you have to be in a commandment to turn from it"

I am not reading into, you are assuming because the word saved was not used that that is not what is meant.

Please explain what it means to be saved from the pollutions of the world by the knowledge of Christ.


Reformed---do you see how you are making the scripture say things it is not??? Just because in your eyes, "its obvious?"

your just assuming that your interpretation is correct even though the Scripture does not clearly say what you are saying.


I'm not making the Scripture say anything, however, you claim my interpretation is wrong, without showing how it is wrong. For you to claim it is wrong, does not make it wrong. But as yet you have not presented the correct interpretation. You also said the Scripture does not clearly say what I said, which proves the point I made earlier, that you want it worded just so to suit you.


Reformed---also you said the other guys analogy didnt work??

it was Pauls direct analogy in chapter 6? your saying Pauls analogy doesn't work???


The writers analogy did work, however, the explanation given by BroRog, did not. His explanation claims that the ones referred to as holy brethren and partakers of the holy Spirit were the leaders of the church.


Reformed---I want you to re-read that passage in Hebrews 6. When you can find a verse that CLEARLY states that these people who fall away are true believers, please get back to me

When you, or anyone else who claims your doctrine, can show me in Scripture, the difference between the believer and the true believer.
Also, please show me the term true believer in Scripture.


Reformed---do you see how you are just assuming things into scripture??? look at your comments:

"ITS OBVIOUS THAT..."

"NOPE THAT DOESNT WORK"

"IF you dont want to see it that way.."

these are all coming from Butch5 but not from Scripture


Well, sorry my friend if it is not clear to you.



Reformed---this is why it annoys me when people say you can lose your salvation

they say things like, well if you turn from God you lose it.

But then they cannot prove with Scripture that those who turn are truly saved, in fact scripture says opposite "they went out from us because they were not of us"


I guess you, like the rest, will ignore this,

Was the Apostle John saved? Was the Apostle Peter saved? Was the Apostle Matthew saved? What about the rest of the Apostles, were they saved? Why did Jesus say this to His chosen 12, The elect, Those who were saved,

Mark 9:42-48 ( NKJV ) 42“But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea. 43If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 44£ (qv://steplinkto1 0000034305/)where



‘Their worm does not die


And the fire is not quenched.’


45And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, £ (qv://steplinkto1 0000034306/)into the fire that shall never be quenched— 46where


‘Their worm does not die


And the fire is not quenched.’


47And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— 48where


‘Their worm does not die


And the fire is not quenched.’£ (qv://steplinkto1 0000034307/)



Please explain to me why Jesus would say this, if as you say salvation cannot be lost. Why did He warn His chosen 12, His elect, to be careful that they did not end up in hell if that was not possible.

Butch5
Dec 26th 2008, 10:20 PM
Can a true Christian lose the Holy Spirit?

Though this is the common wording of such a question, we must begin an answer by questioning the wording itself. The key word is obviously 'lose,' which usually carries an accidental connotation. I don't think many, if any Christians would say we can accidently lose our salvation.

I suggest, therefore, that the inclusion of the word 'lose' in the question is mostly an attempt by calvinists to make the prospect of the NOSAS position seem ridiculous. Once someone actually analyzes the position of NOSAS Christians, they find that the position has nothing to do with 'losing' salvation.

It seems to me that the question is also flawed in how it pictures the Holy Spirit. It borders on indicating that the Holy Spirit has some sort of physicality, like a set of keys, so that it can be lost, so to speak. It fails to recognize that 'having the Holy Spirit' does not refer to acquiring some material possession, but being in a spiritually right relationship with the 3rd Person of the Trinity.

Relationships are dynamic and complex. I'm getting married in 6 days. I love my fiance. Does that mean our relationship is perfect? No. Sometimes I disappoint her. Sometimes our relationship has a bad day. But we love each other. And we persevere. There are ups and downs. But there's a commitment there? Now could I, for some reason, reject that relationship and run off with another woman? Of course. I'd still have a relationship with my fiance, but it'd be a broken one... and it wouldn't involve marriage.

In a similar way, I have a dynamic and complex relationship with the Holy Spirit. It's a teacher/student relationship. It's a leader/follower relationship. Sometimes the relationship has bad days (due to my fallenness), but there's a commitment there. Could I turn my back on that commitment? Of course I could. I'd still have a relationship with the Holy Spirit (how could anyone NOT have SOME relationship with an ever-present Person?), but it wouldn't be one involving salvation.

With these considerations in mind, the re-worded question becomes much more appropriate to answer. Can someone reject a salvific relationship with the Holy Spirit? It seems to me that one obviously could do such a thing. It's a very dumb move, and I don't think it's all that common. More often than not, those who seem to have rejected God probably never entered into saving grace in the first place. But it would be possible to reject saving grace just like it's possible to reject any grace.

Well said my friend.

Butch5
Dec 26th 2008, 10:23 PM
Why not? Maybe it's the first time you heard anyone try to make sense of the passage on its own terms, without seeking a proof text for an agenda?

Simple, I see no basis to say the Partakers of the holy Spirit, is a reference to the leaders of the church.,

Butch5
Dec 26th 2008, 10:34 PM
This is very obviously incorrect!

What about most of Israel...Those who will say "Lord, Lord"... those who said they were Abraham's children but were really the devil's???

OK, let me rephrase it then, since the issue is, "the true believer". The Bibile doesn't differeniatate between the true believer and the believer.

Partaker of Christ
Dec 27th 2008, 12:00 AM
Hiya :)



I said it seems ridiculous when worded incorrectly.



:) Well you obviously think that. I, of course think my understanding is biblical and YOURS is your own point of view. So stating that doesn't really get us anywhere!



Hmm.. That's odd. I wonder why the Bible is constantly telling people to obey commands if they are not free to do so.

How are we 'free' to disobey a command?
If we were 'free' to disobey then they would be no consequence of chastisement.


Yes, bound to every bit of it. If you don't do your side of the agreement, you're in breech of contract and disqualified from the commitments and promises made by the other party.



Well, there is such a thing as a legitimate divorce in God's eyes. But I suppose that is another point. Even if I granted your point, It still makes mine. The person who walks out is still bound to their marriage commitment, but they are no longer in right relationship. They are at odds with the contract. They are opening themselves to the punishments of a broken agreement.

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.


Our relationship with God is multi-faceted. There is a sense in which it is a Father/child relationship. It is also a Husband/bride relationship. It is also a Friend/friend relationship. It seems to me that you get caught up on focusing on 1 analogy per doctrine. But God is too big for that.

Our kinship with the Father is based on Father/child.

Husband/bride is Christ and the Body of Christ

[quote]A Father can cease to be a father in any meaningful sense, yes. And a child can cease to be one's child in any meaningful sense. Don't let the analogies box you. Truth is illustrated by analogy, not the other way around!

In Christ,
matthew

1Ti 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

BroRog
Dec 27th 2008, 02:48 AM
Simple, I see no basis to say the Partakers of the holy Spirit, is a reference to the leaders of the church.,

First of all, I'm not saying that the partakers of the Spirit are the leaders of the church. I'm saying that to partake of the Spirit is to listen to the teaching of the Spirit through the Apostles, prophets, etc. This principle is well defined in 1Corinthians and Ephesians. The Spirit gives gifts to the church for the edification of its members. To partake of the Spirit is to have access to the teaching of Christ through the Apostles with the benefit of the Holy Spirit.

One might argue that to "partake of the Holy Spirit" is to be indwelt with the Holy Spirit, receiving the gifts of the Spirit, which are kindness, patience, etc. But this idea hardly fits the context of Hebrews 6.

The author of Hebrews states the topic subject of this section in the first two verses,

Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.

The issue here is not the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, spiritual gifts, or the gifts of the spirit, which are love, joy, kindness, patience, etc. The subject of this section centers around the teachings about Christ, which include information about repentence, faith, resurrection, eternal judgment, etc. In other words, the issue is the content of the gospel message and whether the Hebrews will leave all that behind or keep it and move on to maturity.

It's not a question of who has or has not received the Holy Spirit. It's a question of who has heard the teachings of the Apostles and are willing to move on to maturity, rather than rejecting what has been taught. It's not a question of initial belief, it's a question of perseverance in belief.

To be enlightened doesn't mean one has been convinced of what he has learned. To be enlightened simply means to be informed or made aware of a thing or idea.

To taste a heavenly gift doesn't necessarily indicate who has the gift. The Holy Spirit gives gifts to men in order to edify the members of a congregation. It could very well mean that when I taste the heavenly gift, I am "tasting" the gift of the evangelist who is trying to edify me, or the prophet who is trying to help me know God's will, or I might be tasting the gift of the Apostle who is trying to help me know what Jesus taught.

To partake of the Holy Spirit doesn't necessarily mean that I have the Holy Spirit. It simply indicates that I have witnessed the power of the Holy Spirit personally, just as to taste the good word of God doesn't mean that I am the one who has delivered that word. Obviously, to taste the good word of God is to hear the word preached in my church or to read it in my bible. But to hear the word doesn't necessarily mean I understand the word or believe it.

In other words, I don't think we can automatically assume that those who have partaken of the Holy Spirit are believers or will press on to maturity. But we do know that those who have partaken of Christ will come to salvation as he says in Hebrews 3.

BCF
Dec 27th 2008, 05:33 AM
Let me ask you, where does the Bible speak of People who are, not really saved? In the Bible, people are either saved or they are not. The Bible doesn't speak of People who think they are saved. It is those who try to protect their doctrine that have created this person who is "not really saved". The "they were never really saved" person doesn't exist in the Scriptures.


OK, let me rephrase it then, since the issue is, "the true believer". The Bibile doesn't differentiate between the true believer and the believer.

Hi Butch5, nice to chat with you.

So you are wanting to know where in the Bible it differentiates between the True Believer and the Believer.

Ok my friend.....I can give you many....many scripture's starting in the OT with Aaron (the brother of Moses) who's life God took b/c he disobeyed a commandment of Gods. And Aaron was a true follower of God. To Revelations in the NT, where we find the Church of Laedicea. This Church was full of believers who were not true believers, and they were not non believer. They were a Church who were believers in there minds, but not in their hearts. They were called lukewarm believers, and as lukewarm believers, God said that he would spue them out of His mouth. Yes.....I could go that route, and it would show you everything that you are wanting to know. But if I did that...I might end up derailing this thread....or you simply would lose interest, b/c it would be more then what you bargained for....and then you might end up not responding back to me at all. So instead of doing that....I will just give you one scripture which Jesus said himself...when He was talking to all those people (people who were following God and the scripture, people who were following God with just there minds, and people who were not following God and the scripture at all) in the Greatest Sermon Ever Preached by a Man.....The Sermon On The Mount.

In Matthew 7:21-23, we can read Jesus telling all those people this:

"21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in they name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done mane wonderful works? 23. And then I will profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

Now.....before you say that we don't know what kind of people Jesus was talking to at the Sermon of the Mount, b/c scripture never really says what kind of people they were. So all we can do is assume what kind of people they were. Let me just tell you to save it for another time. Doing the Sermon of the Mount, scripture is quite clear on the people that Jesus was talking to, and I shall take the time to prove that to you through scripture. In Matthew 4:23, we read this:

"23. And Jesus want all about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people."

In this verse the scripture clearly states that Jesus taught in the synagogues (or Church) the gospel of the kingdom. Those would be the people who we could say were believers. But Jesus did not just go to the people in the Church to do His Ministry. His Ministry extended outside of the Church to the People. What kind of people? The kind of people who would not go to the Church. What kind of people would that be? It would be one of three. 1. They were believers and did not have time to go to the Church. 2.They were believers with there minds, so they did not see a need to go to church. 3. They were non believers, except when they were in some kind of trouble. Then they were believers.

As we continue we find the next verse (24) saying this:

24.And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers (or various) diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils (or demons) and those which were lunatic (or epileptics) and those that had the palsy (or were paralyzed) and he healed them"

In this verse we find that Jesus got so popular, that people (any kind of people) brought sick people to him who lived outside of Galilee. This verse does not say that the people that Jesus healed were believers, non believers, or true believers. all it says is people. People to me means any kind at all. So I think of today and time. If Jesus came to NY City. And he did what he did in verse 24. And word got out to the rest of the U.S. What kind of people do you think would be making there way to NY City? I will tell you this my friend. They won't all be true believers. Most of them will be just believers in there minds, and not in there heart. How do I know this? Look at 9/11. On 9/11, everybody was looking for a Church to go to, and there was not a pew open in any Church for months. Why are the pews going empty now? Where are all those people who needed God on 9/11? This is what Jesus is talking about in his message in Matthew 7:21-23, when He spoke that Wonderful Sermon On The Mount.

Jesus knew who He was talking to, and He also knew that not all of them were true believers. So rather then point them out, and chase them away from the truth of the Gospel. He told the the parable of the two builders. He used a illustration that they could understand of a builder, building a house on a rock, compared to a builder building a house in sand, and what would happen if it gave a storm. Through that parable they could figure out that, if they built there Faith on something that was weak, it would fail them. But if they built there Faith on something that was strong. It would never fail them. Jesus was able to feed milk to those who need milk, and meat to those who need meat, and He did it all through Love. And that my friend is the Good News Of The Gospel. Faith and Love in God (Christ) will never fail you.

So you see my friend. When it comes to proving if whether or not scripture makes differentiate between True Believers, Believers, or Non Believer for that matter. All we need to do is look at what we see today for the answers, b/c nothing has changed. It's just it has gotten more high tech.

Happy Chewing:)

God Bless

Dave

Butch5
Dec 27th 2008, 06:55 PM
First of all, I'm not saying that the partakers of the Spirit are the leaders of the church. I'm saying that to partake of the Spirit is to listen to the teaching of the Spirit through the Apostles, prophets, etc. This principle is well defined in 1Corinthians and Ephesians. The Spirit gives gifts to the church for the edification of its members. To partake of the Spirit is to have access to the teaching of Christ through the Apostles with the benefit of the Holy Spirit.

One might argue that to "partake of the Holy Spirit" is to be indwelt with the Holy Spirit, receiving the gifts of the Spirit, which are kindness, patience, etc. But this idea hardly fits the context of Hebrews 6.

The author of Hebrews states the topic subject of this section in the first two verses,


Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.

The issue here is not the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, spiritual gifts, or the gifts of the spirit, which are love, joy, kindness, patience, etc. The subject of this section centers around the teachings about Christ, which include information about repentence, faith, resurrection, eternal judgment, etc. In other words, the issue is the content of the gospel message and whether the Hebrews will leave all that behind or keep it and move on to maturity.

It's not a question of who has or has not received the Holy Spirit. It's a question of who has heard the teachings of the Apostles and are willing to move on to maturity, rather than rejecting what has been taught. It's not a question of initial belief, it's a question of perseverance in belief.

To be enlightened doesn't mean one has been convinced of what he has learned. To be enlightened simply means to be informed or made aware of a thing or idea.

To taste a heavenly gift doesn't necessarily indicate who has the gift. The Holy Spirit gives gifts to men in order to edify the members of a congregation. It could very well mean that when I taste the heavenly gift, I am "tasting" the gift of the evangelist who is trying to edify me, or the prophet who is trying to help me know God's will, or I might be tasting the gift of the Apostle who is trying to help me know what Jesus taught.

To partake of the Holy Spirit doesn't necessarily mean that I have the Holy Spirit. It simply indicates that I have witnessed the power of the Holy Spirit personally, just as to taste the good word of God doesn't mean that I am the one who has delivered that word. Obviously, to taste the good word of God is to hear the word preached in my church or to read it in my bible. But to hear the word doesn't necessarily mean I understand the word or believe it.

In other words, I don't think we can automatically assume that those who have partaken of the Holy Spirit are believers or will press on to maturity. But we do know that those who have partaken of Christ will come to salvation as he says in Hebrews 3.

OK, given your explanation, let's say that you are corrrect. That however, does not eliminate from the group, those who believe the message. Therefore the warning is still valid to the believers.

I agree the issue is about perseverance, not initial salvation. However I think this is a moot point because in chapter 3 the writer makes it clear who is is writing to.


Hebrews 3:1 ( KJV ) 1Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

He is writing to those who profess Christ. If some of those don't believe, then what he says does not apply to them. However what He writes, he is writing to those who believe, in verse 12 he says, lest there be in any of you (believers) an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

awestruckchild
Dec 27th 2008, 07:04 PM
This is a reply to the op of this thread. Jesus often healed people and then told them to go and sin no more.
But He also showed us by His teachings on the 10 commandments that we are incapable of stopping murdering in truth. Also Paul spoke of how he didn't understand himself because he kept doing the very things he did not want to do and had come to the conclusion that sin was simply in him.

So the question for me is: What exactly did Jesus mean when He said: Go and sin no more?

Butch5
Dec 27th 2008, 07:28 PM
So you see my friend. When it comes to proving if whether or not scripture makes differentiate between True Believers, Believers, or Non Believer for that matter. All we need to do is look at what we see today for the answers, b/c nothing has changed. It's just it has gotten more high tech.

Happy Chewing:)

God Bless

Dave

Hi Dave,

I fail to see how you have shown from Scripture the difference between the true believer and the believer. Granted you gave a nice description and explanation of the church today. However you have not proven that those in Matthew 7:21 were either saved or unsaved, whichever you hold them to be. Many of the Jews who tried to keep the law will probably hear those words that Jesus spoke. Just as I believe many, who believe they have no works to do, will hear those words.

Your statement right here tells me that you have already decided what a true believer is vs. a believer,


Dave---To Revelations in the NT, where we find the Church of Laedicea. This Church was full of believers who were not true believers, and they were not non believer. They were a Church who were believers in there minds, but not in their hearts. They were called lukewarm believers, and as lukewarm believers, God said that he would spue them out of His mouth.


You said this church was not true believers, (you said they were believers in their minds not their hearts, how do you know this?). From your statement I understand you to mean (correct me if I am wrong), That Christ was going to spew them out of His mouth, because they did not believer with their heart, correct? Let's look at the 7 churches,

Revelation 2:1-29 ( KJV ) 1Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; 2I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: 3And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name’s sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. 4Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. 5Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. 6But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate. 7He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.



8And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; 9I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. 10Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. 11He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.


12And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges; 13I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan’s seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth. 14But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. 15So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate. 16Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. 17He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.


18And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 20Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. 26And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. 28And I will give him the morning star. 29He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.



Revelation 3:1-22 ( KJV ) 1And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. 2Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. 3Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. 4Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. 5He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. 6He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.




7And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; 8I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. 9Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. 10Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. 12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. 13He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.


14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; 15I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. 17Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: 18I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. 19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. 20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. 21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.




It seems to me that the context regarding the letters to all of the churches was, their works. The letter to the Laodiceans, says nothing about being spewed out because the did not believe with their hearts, they were haughty and proud, they thought they were better than others and, they did "no" works.




They were believers and Christ admonished them, do the works or be lost.

BCF
Dec 27th 2008, 11:10 PM
Hi Dave,

I fail to see how you have shown from Scripture the difference between the true believer and the believer. Granted you gave a nice description and explanation of the church today. However you have not proven that those in Matthew 7:21 were either saved or unsaved, whichever you hold them to be. Many of the Jews who tried to keep the law will probably hear those words that Jesus spoke. Just as I believe many, who believe they have no works to do, will hear those words.

Your statement right here tells me that you have already decided what a true believer is vs. a believer,



You said this church was not true believers, (you said they were believers in their minds not their hearts, how do you know this?). From your statement I understand you to mean (correct me if I am wrong), That Christ was going to spew them out of His mouth, because they did not believer with their heart, correct? Let's look at the 7 churches,

Revelation 2:1-29 ( KJV ) 1Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; 2I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: 3And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name’s sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. 4Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. 5Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. 6But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate. 7He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.



8And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; 9I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. 10Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. 11He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.



12And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges; 13I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan’s seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth. 14But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. 15So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate. 16Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. 17He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.



18And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 20Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. 26And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. 28And I will give him the morning star. 29He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.




Revelation 3:1-22 ( KJV ) 1And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. 2Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. 3Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. 4Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. 5He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. 6He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.




7And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; 8I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. 9Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. 10Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. 12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. 13He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.



14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; 15I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. 17Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: 18I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. 19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. 20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. 21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.




It seems to me that the context regarding the letters to all of the churches was, their works. The letter to the Laodiceans, says nothing about being spewed out because the did not believe with their hearts, they were haughty and proud, they thought they were better than others and, they did "no" works.





They were believers and Christ admonished them, do the works or be lost.


I'm sorry...have you not ever read in James 2:26, that Faith without works is dead? That's not the whole verse though. Let me give you the whole verse so that you can understand it in it's context.

James 2:26 says this:

"For as the Body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

The only way that you can truly believe anything through Faith, is through your heart. You can believe all kinds of stuff through your mind....and say that it is true.
But you can't do that when you are believing with faith in your heart. The spirit that we carry lives in our heart...and guides our Faith. Our minds live in our heads, and guides our bodies. If we don't change our minds to listen to our Faith from our heart...we can never listen to God in the first place. This is what Paul is talking about in Romans 12: 1-2. But if we don't do this process like Paul explains in Romans....we will do just what the Church of Laedicea did instead. Listen to there minds and called it Faith, and called themselves a believer in Christ. When in reality they were nothing at all but a dead Church.....full of Dead Christians.

God Bless,

Dave

BroRog
Dec 28th 2008, 12:24 AM
OK, given your explanation, let's say that you are corrrect. That however, does not eliminate from the group, those who believe the message.

You're right. It doesn't. But this passage can not be used to prove that a child of God can lose the Holy Spirit, which is the subject of this thread.


I agree the issue is about perseverance, not initial salvation. However I think this is a moot point because in chapter 3 the writer makes it clear who is is writing to.


I don't see your point though. This thread isn't centered on the question of whether or not a believer will stop believing. Some most assuredly do. The central issue in this thread is whether a "true" Christian can lose the Holy Spirit. The qualification "true" puts it in the catagory of a person who ultimately will persevere. That's what it means to be "true."


Hebrews 3:1 ( KJV ) 1Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

He is writing to those who profess Christ. If some of those don't believe, then what he says does not apply to them. However what He writes, he is writing to those who believe, in verse 12 he says, lest there be in any of you (believers) an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.[/quote]

Again, if we jump down to verse 14, the author of Hebrews says that by definition those who are in Christ will persevere in their faith.

You seem to be suggesting that a person's ultimate destiny is always ambiguous, but I believe many here have presented enough scriptures to put that idea aside. Some people will persevere, and these people can know with 100% certainty who they are.

Yukerboy
Dec 28th 2008, 12:54 AM
Hi Yuckerboy,
If you want to discuss this, I am more than willing, however I am not going to pit Scripture against Scripture. If you are willing to look at the entirety of Scripture we can discuss it, otherwise we are just going in circles. Let's start with your opening statement,


Nope, wouldn't want to do what CHRIST did to SATAN when being TEMPTED!



You see, you've set up a false dilemma, which is a logical fallacy. You assume that either, the Scripture quotations are wrong or I am wrong.

Unfortunately for you, it is a true dilemma.

You will never see me say to Scripture it's wrong. You will always see me answer Scripture with Scripture showing the fallacy of your interpretation.

To which, I then expect (as the proven pattern) you to say it's being taken out of context, which is a euphemism for you disagree with the scripture.




Can you show me this unsaved believer in Scripture?
You say that person never had salvation, How do you know this and how can it be shown?


The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.

Hence, perseverance of the saints.

Other than that, refer to where I quoted nearly a quarter of the New Testament earlier.



The writer says we are not of those who turn back. Turn back from what? if they were never a believer, then they must be turning back from unbelief. What does that mean? An unbeliever turning back from unbelief?
On the other hand, we know that they are turn back to perdition, or destruction. Judas was a son of perdition, so we know what it mean to turn back to perdition. In this context it is to turn from Christ, as Judas did. The writer says we are not of those who turn back, in order to turn form Christ, one must be in Christ.


Turn back from belief. They have believed for a little while, but then turned back or fell away. They were never saved, for if they were one of the sheep, they would have remained with the sheep, but their going away showed they never were one of the sheep.



This verse speaks of those who choose to follow Christ, God will strong to the end.
You said these are those who are born again, you are correct, they are born again, they are also those who choose to follow Christ. You said either God will keep you strong until the end or you were never saved.


God keeps those who were born again strong to the end. If God does not keep you strong to the end, then it is not that you were born again, God then failed to keep them strong, and then they fell away. No, my God doesn't fail. Maybe yours does.

My God keeps those who are born again strong to the end. My God will never let one He has fathered to fall away.



Colossians 1:20-23 ( KJV ) 20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Notice here Paul says basically the same thing, God will bring you throught to the end, "IF" you continue in the faith. He is speaking ot believers, he says they have been reconciled and will be present holy, unblamable, and unreprovable in God's sight, "IF" the continue in the faith. Paul makes it clear that they can, if they choose, not continue in the faith, and he says that God will "ONLY" bring them through to the end "IF" they continue in hte faith. This is a clear passage of Scripture, there is nothing ambiguous here.


And God will keep the born again strong through the end. The born again are those who persevere. If they do not persevere, Jesus will say to them "I NEVER knew you". They were never born again.



Again this speaks of believers, Also, and of great importance is the fact that John uses the present tense for believe. It reads, who ever hears my words and "IS" believing him who sent me has eternal life. It means the one who is currently believing has eternal life. If one comes to a point where they are no longer believing then they no longer have eternal life. One thing you have to understand, is the assumption of continued belief. Jesus is telling what happens to those who continue to the end. In saying this one has eternal life Jesus is assuming continued belief. In actually eternal life is not given until the end, that is why Paul says in Ephesians that we are sealed with the Spirit which is the earnest or down payment of our inheritance until the day of redemption. It is at the day of redemption that we will receive the promises. Notice Jesus' own words.

Revelation 2:7 ( KJV ) 7He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

There would be no need to eat from the tree of life if one already possessed eternal life.


Right, no need, but we'll do it anyway. It isn't a fruit that gives eternal life, but Christ.



Genesis 3:22-23 ( KJV ) 22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

This is the same tree of life, which gives eternal life.


Once again, Christ.



The better translation is, being made perfect. However, that doesn't really matter. The issue is the word perfect, which doesn't mean without flaw, the Greek word means to be made complete or mature or perfect. Obviously the Christian is not without flaw so, that leaves perfect out. The best translation would probably be complete, as through sanctification one is made complete. And yes one who is made complete can fall

I will not rewrite the Bible. This is where your fallacy shows through.

The Christian is without flaw, without blemish, made perfect in every way.

However, if your mind is on the flesh of the Christian, you will not see that.

Yuke

reformedct
Dec 28th 2008, 02:34 AM
Im glad people are starting to get the point

the question is not can a believer stop believing. that happens a lot. there are many "ex-christians" who are now athiests

the question is where in the bible does it say the seal of the Spirit can be broken? i have yet to find one under the new covenant, however i do see verses like this: John 14:16 "...He will give you another Helper, to be with you FOREVER, even the Spirit of truth, who the world cannot recieve."


because if the Spirit never leaves a true Christian, how can that Christian end up in hell with the Spirit of God inside them???????


many people come and say "you can turn your back on God".

that is 100% correct people do it all the time. But when you say that someone who turned their back LOST THEIR SALVATION, you call God a liar. Because those whom He justified, these He also glorified. If they did not make it to glorification they were not justified by the Almighty God. It is very clear in Scripture.

Just for the record, my intention is not to bash those who believe NOSAS. My goal is to get people to see they joy, freedom, and security they have in CHrist!!! how much would your life change if you KNEW you were safe forever if the Spirit is in you!

It seems that those who reject OSAS are afraid that people will use it as a liscence to sin.

However, we must realize that a true Christian will have the SPirit in them, so that they will not continue in a lifestyle of sinfulness.

I also think those who reject OSAS want to put pressure on people to obey, but that is the Spirits job. Some people are radically changed, some slowly come along, the race is not given to the swift.


Also one thing i always notice when people try to refute OSAS , they tend to go way back into the old testament, pull out a passage, and try to mingle it into the New Covenant. For example i think ezekiel 33 is popular. what we need to realize is that we are saved by grace thru faith and not of ourselves. When you interpret scripture in a way that adds onto that, you end up getting confused, saying things like:

yeah yeah youre saved by grace thru faith

BUT THEN....YOU hAVE TO a b c d e f g

No. we are saved by grace thru faith. WHy won't we just accept it as a free gift???? WHy are we trying to "add" our part, as if Jesus blodd was insufficient for full salvation??? i hate to say it but i think adding our works to justification spits on the blood of Christ, counting it as not sufficient to pay the full price. The mingling of justification and works is the foundation of the Catholic Church


when we say people can "turn from God and lose their salvation", we become just like Catholics minus the human priest. Jesus is the one in the booth and we just keep coming back again and again and again and again and again confessing and seeking justification. Do you really think that's how salvation, a gift of God, works?

Why is it so hard to believe God IS FAITHFUL. we are talking about God here, slow to anger, abounding in mercy, with new mercies every morning. God changes us by His love not fear. We become more and more faithful as we see how faithful He is to us. We gladly forgive others for he has nailed our debt to the cross and paid it all. Jesus forgives us of ALL sin.

what about past sin? ALL SIN

what about present sin? ALL SIN

what about future sin? ALL SIN

He already absorbed the wrath of God on our behalf THERE IS NO MORE WORK TO BE DONE PEOPLES! lol


IT is FiNISHED. I choose to agree with Jesus

Ekeak
Dec 28th 2008, 03:23 AM
Yes, a true Christian can by defying grace. This means turning their back on their Christianhood, (falling into sin). But don't be decieved, if Christ knows you in the end, you were a true Christian. If he doesn't, you weren't.

reformedct
Dec 28th 2008, 03:35 AM
Yes, a true Christian can by defying grace. This means turning their back on their Christianhood, (falling into sin). But don't be decieved, if Christ knows you in the end, you were a true Christian. If he doesn't, you weren't.


As i said this was not the question. The question is can a true born again believer lose the Holy Spirit. Please give scripture for support not just opinions and assumptions



Yes, a true Christian can by defying grace. This means turning their back on their Christianhood, (falling into sin). But don't be decieved, if Christ knows you in the end, you were a true Christian. If he doesn't, you weren't.


can you please use scripture to back this notion?? please give a Scripture showing where a born again Christian with the indwelling Spirit lost the Holy Spirit

Butch5
Dec 28th 2008, 07:05 AM
BroRog---You're right. It doesn't. But this passage can not be used to prove that a child of God can lose the Holy Spirit, which is the subject of this thread.

So. if a believer has an evil heart of unbelief and turns from the living God, the holy Spirit will continue to dwell in this person???




BroRog---I don't see your point though. This thread isn't centered on the question of whether or not a believer will stop believing. Some most assuredly do. The central issue in this thread is whether a "true" Christian can lose the Holy Spirit. The qualification "true" puts it in the catagory of a person who ultimately will persevere. That's what it means to be "true."

I don't believe that is the sense that was menat in the OP. How does being a "true" believer guarantee that one will persevere to the end?



BroRog---He is writing to those who profess Christ. If some of those don't believe, then what he says does not apply to them. However what He writes, he is writing to those who believe, in verse 12 he says, lest there be in any of you (believers) an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.[

Again, if we jump down to verse 14, the author of Hebrews says that by definition those who are in Christ will persevere in their faith.


Are yo reading the same book I am?


Hebrews 3:14 ( KJV ) 14For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

My book says "IF" we hold fast. If is a conditional word, not a guarantee.


BroRog---You seem to be suggesting that a person's ultimate destiny is always ambiguous, but I believe many here have presented enough scriptures to put that idea aside. Some people will persevere, and these people can know with 100% certainty who they are.

Well, you are entitled to believe that "if" (conditional word) you like. However, the Scriptures that have been presented are out of context. Can you say honestly, beyond any shadow of a doubt that you will never turn from Christ, no matter what happens? Unless you can see the future I doubt that you can honestly say that. No one knows the future, how they will act in a given situation, how they will respond in times of trials. You can know you are saved right now, if you are believing, you can hope that you never stop believing, you can pray that God will keep you believing. I think it is naive to say you can be 100% of what you will do in the future.

Butch5
Dec 28th 2008, 07:11 AM
Nope, wouldn't want to do what CHRIST did to SATAN when being TEMPTED!




Unfortunately for you, it is a true dilemma.

You will never see me say to Scripture it's wrong. You will always see me answer Scripture with Scripture showing the fallacy of your interpretation.

To which, I then expect (as the proven pattern) you to say it's being taken out of context, which is a euphemism for you disagree with the scripture.




The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.

Hence, perseverance of the saints.

Other than that, refer to where I quoted nearly a quarter of the New Testament earlier.



Turn back from belief. They have believed for a little while, but then turned back or fell away. They were never saved, for if they were one of the sheep, they would have remained with the sheep, but their going away showed they never were one of the sheep.



God keeps those who were born again strong to the end. If God does not keep you strong to the end, then it is not that you were born again, God then failed to keep them strong, and then they fell away. No, my God doesn't fail. Maybe yours does.

My God keeps those who are born again strong to the end. My God will never let one He has fathered to fall away.



And God will keep the born again strong through the end. The born again are those who persevere. If they do not persevere, Jesus will say to them "I NEVER knew you". They were never born again.



Right, no need, but we'll do it anyway. It isn't a fruit that gives eternal life, but Christ.



Once again, Christ.




I will not rewrite the Bible. This is where your fallacy shows through.

The Christian is without flaw, without blemish, made perfect in every way.

However, if your mind is on the flesh of the Christian, you will not see that.

Yuke

Not a single verse of Scripture in your rebttal. Just circular reasoniing and false dilemma.

Butch5
Dec 28th 2008, 07:24 AM
I'm sorry...have you not ever read in James 2:26, that Faith without works is dead? That's not the whole verse though. Let me give you the whole verse so that you can understand it in it's context.

James 2:26 says this:

"For as the Body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

The only way that you can truly believe anything through Faith, is through your heart. You can believe all kinds of stuff through your mind....and say that it is true.
But you can't do that when you are believing with faith in your heart. The spirit that we carry lives in our heart...and guides our Faith. Our minds live in our heads, and guides our bodies. If we don't change our minds to listen to our Faith from our heart...we can never listen to God in the first place. This is what Paul is talking about in Romans 12: 1-2. But if we don't do this process like Paul explains in Romans....we will do just what the Church of Laedicea did instead. Listen to there minds and called it Faith, and called themselves a believer in Christ. When in reality they were nothing at all but a dead Church.....full of Dead Christians.

God Bless,

Dave

This has nothing to do with the true believer vs. the believer. That is fine if you want to believe that, but that is not what Christ said about the Church at Laodicea. He said, I know your works. He never said that weren't Christians, He never said they weren't believers, He never said they were a dead church. In fact He admonished them to repent, He even said He loved them.

BroRog
Dec 28th 2008, 07:50 AM
So. if a believer has an evil heart of unbelief and turns from the living God, the holy Spirit will continue to dwell in this person??? In such a case, we know they never had the Holy Spirit.


I don't believe that is the sense that was menat in the OP. How does being a "true" believer guarantee that one will persevere to the end?
It's true by definition. If a person perseveres to the end, they were a true believer.


Are yo reading the same book I am?
Hebrews 3:14 ( KJV ) 14For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

My book says "IF" we hold fast. If is a conditional word, not a guarantee.
Yes, the word "if" is a conditional. But when used in a definition, it merely sets up the conditions under which the predicate is true. In other words, by definition anyone who holds the beginning of our confidence to the end is someone who has been made a partaker of Christ. Those who were not made partakers of Christ will not make it to the end.


Can you say honestly, beyond any shadow of a doubt that you will never turn from Christ, no matter what happens?
What do you mean "no matter what happens"? I think that category is too big to be meaningful or interesting. Three Apostles, Peter, James and Paul, each teach us that we can have confidence that we will make it to the end when our faith is tested, authenticated, and certified. Peter, for instance, says that the testing of our faith is more precious than Gold. James says that we should count it all joy when we suffer trials, and Paul says that when the testing of our faith leads to attestedness, our hope will not disappoint.


Unless you can see the future I doubt that you can honestly say that. No one knows the future, how they will act in a given situation, how they will respond in times of trials.Once our faith has been tested, though, all ambiguity has been removed. Anyone having gone through these trials with faith still in tact can honestly say with confidence that they will make it to the end.

Not only this, but we have a guarantee that God will not test us beyond our ability to bear it. And Jesus taught us to pray "lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil", which if we unpack that prayer we understand this to be a petition that God will not lead us into a trial that will destroy us.


I think it is naive to say you can be 100% of what you will do in the future.
I recommend that anyone who has doubt about their faith should read Romans 5, and James 1, and 1Peter 1, which talk about the testing of our faith and the confident assurance of our perseverance such trials bring.

Partaker of Christ
Dec 28th 2008, 04:42 PM
Hebrews 3:14 ( KJV ) 14For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

My book says "IF" we hold fast. If is a conditional word, not a guarantee.


Does that then mean, we are not partakers of Christ until the end?

And yet you go on to Heb 6:

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost.

You say that these were partakers, and yet we are not partakers, unless we hold on until the end.

Sirus
Dec 28th 2008, 05:59 PM
Made a partaker of the Holy Ghost is not a partaker of Christ in fullness of glory. We have the earnest downpayment, notification and knowledge of adoption, but the adoption is not complete until the redemption of our bodies.

Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
.........
Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Hebrews 6 doesn't say anyone lost it or will btw.

Partaker of Christ
Dec 28th 2008, 06:20 PM
Made a partaker of the Holy Ghost is not a partaker of Christ if fulness of glory.

So now we widen the meaning to make it fit?

were does it say 'if fulness of glory'?

If we have died with Christ, have we partaken in His death?

Vhayes
Dec 28th 2008, 06:43 PM
I think we can quench the Holy Spirit but not lose Him. (I Thessalonians 5:19)

We are sealed unto the day of redemption by the Holy Spirit. (Ephesians 4:30)

In other words, The Holy Spirit seals us just as a letter was sealed in days gone by. The only person with the right or the power to open the letter is the person to whom it is addressed. In this instance, I believe we are sealed by the Holy Spirit and addressed to God - only He can break the seal when we go home.

Just my two cents...
V

Sirus
Dec 28th 2008, 07:03 PM
So now we widen the meaning to make it fit?

were does it say 'if fulness of glory'?

If we have died with Christ, have we partaken in His death?I didn't widen the mean, I just posted Romans 8.

Sorry....typo.....
in fullness of glory

Yes, and we partake of the divine nature....all by faith of course. The redemption of our body has not occurred yet

reformedct
Dec 28th 2008, 09:41 PM
ddsfdsfsdfsdfsdffsdfdfdsf

BCF
Dec 28th 2008, 09:43 PM
This has nothing to do with the true believer vs. the believer. That is fine if you want to believe that, but that is not what Christ said about the Church at Laodicea. He said, I know your works. He never said that weren't Christians, He never said they weren't believers, He never said they were a dead church. In fact He admonished them to repent, He even said He loved them.

Ahhhhhh my friend, your one of my wonderful brothers who needs to see it actually needs the scripture to read, you are not a Christian, or you are not a believer in order for you to understand that the Scripture does say that. Well, my friend you are right. There is nothing in scripture that will say those exact words. The closest we can come to those words, would be in a conversation that Jesus had with the Pharisees and the Jew's in John 8:13-59, where it says this:

13. "The Pharisees therefore said unto Him. You bear witness of Yourself; Your witness is not true. 14. Jesus answered and said to them, Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from and where I am going. 15. You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one. 16. And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me. 17. It is also written in our law that the testimony of two men is true. 18. I am One who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of Me. 19. Then they said to Him, where is your Father? Jesus answered, You know nor Me or My Father. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also. 20. These words Jesus spoke in the treasury, as He taught in the temple; and no one laid hands on Him, for His hour had not yet come. 21. Then Jesus said again, I am going away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin. Where I go you cannot come. 22. So the Jews said, will He kill Himself, because He says, where I go you cannot come? 23. And He said to them, You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24. Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins. 25. Then they said to Him, Who are You? And Jesus said to them, just as I have been saying to you from the beginning. 26. I have many things to say and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I heard from Him. 27. They did not understand that He spoke to them of the Father. 28. Then Jesus said to them, When you life up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He that I do nothing of Myself; But as My Father taught Me, I speak these things. 29. And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him. 30. As He spoke these words, many believed in Him. 31. Then Jesus said to those Jews WHO BELIEVED HIM, If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 33. They answered Him, We are Abraham's descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can you say, you will be made free? 34. Jesus answered them, Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35. And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36. Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed. 37. I KNOW THAT YOU ARE ABRAHAM'S DESCENDANTS, but you seek to kill Me, BECAUSE MY WORD HAS NO PLACE IN YOU. 38. I speak what I have seen with My Father, AND YOU DO WHAT YOU HAVE SEEN WITH YOUR FATHER. 39. They answered and said to Him, Abraham is our father. Jesus said to them, If you were Abraham's children, YOU WOULD DO THE WORKS OF ABRAHAM. 40. But now you seek to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth WHICH I HEARD FROM GOD. ABRAHAM DID NOT DO THIS. 41. You do the deeds of your father. Then they said to Him, We are not born of fornication; we have one Father, God. 42. Jesus said to them, If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceed forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43. Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44. You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45. But because I tell you the truth, you do not believe Me. 46. Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47. He who is of God hears God's words: THEREFORE YOU DO NOT HEAR, BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT OF GOD. 48. Then the Jews answered and said to Him, Do we not say rightly that You are a Samaritan and have a demon? 49. Jesus answered, I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me. 50. And I do not seek My own glory; there is One who seeks and judges. 51. Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My words he shall never see death. 52. Then the Jews said to Him, Now we know that You have a demon! Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and You say, If anyone keeps My word he shall never taste death. 53. Are You greater then our father Abraham, who is dead? And the prophets are dead. Who do You make Yourself out to be? 54. Jesus answered, If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your God. 55. Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, I do not know Him, I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word. 56. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad. 57. Then the Jews said to Him, You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham? 58. Jesus said to them, Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM. 59. Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple going through the midst of them, and so passed by."

As you can see through these scriptures by the writer John.....Jesus himself told the Jews, that they were not Christians. They thought that they were Christians b/c they believed in God. But Jesus made it clear that it took more then just believing in God to be a true believer. It took heart, not just mind. Now....did Jesus love these Jews.....Yes. Did Jesus say that they repent.....Yes...not in those exact words did Jesus say that. But I believe that these words from Jesus would qualify.

31. Then Jesus said to those Jews WHO BELIEVED HIM, If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

51. Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My words he shall never see death.

Did Jesus know the works of these Jews....Yes. They were the Religious leaders of that day. They taught the scriptures in the temples of that day. Of coarse He knew. But He also knew that what they did, was not for God....it was for themselves. Why? Because they did not have a heart for God....hey had a heart for the devil (or the world) Jesus said so in these verses:

33. They answered Him, We are Abraham's descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can you say, you will be made free? 34. Jesus answered them, Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35. And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36. Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed. 37. I KNOW THAT YOU ARE ABRAHAM'S DESCENDANTS, but you seek to kill Me, BECAUSE MY WORD HAS NO PLACE IN YOU. 38. I speak what I have seen with My Father, AND YOU DO WHAT YOU HAVE SEEN WITH YOUR FATHER. 39. They answered and said to Him, Abraham is our father. Jesus said to them, If you were Abraham's children, YOU WOULD DO THE WORKS OF ABRAHAM. 40. But now you seek to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth WHICH I HEARD FROM GOD. ABRAHAM DID NOT DO THIS. 41. You do the deeds of your father. Then they said to Him, We are not born of fornication; we have one Father, God. 42. Jesus said to them, If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceed forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43. Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44. You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45. But because I tell you the truth, you do not believe Me.

These Jews were the Church of Laodicea of there time. They were people who were not Hot, nor were they cold. What they were was lukewarm. And a lukewarm Christian is of no use to God. They had the Church of Laodicea back then, who were people just like these Jews were, who are Christians through their minds and not through there hearts. Just like there are Christians now, who are Christians with there minds, and not with there hearts. Jesus called all of those believers out then and told them that they were not believers. And if Jesus can....so can we, b/c if we don't....they will be lost forever. It is our duty to Our Lord to do so. But we do it with Love. Not by jamming scripture down there throat.
There is no denying what I am telling you....b/c scripture can prove it though out the Bible.

We are just getting started my friend....

If you don't understand;)

God Bless,

Dave

Butch5
Dec 29th 2008, 05:12 PM
Ahhhhhh my friend, your one of my wonderful brothers who needs to see it actually needs the scripture to read, you are not a Christian, or you are not a believer in order for you to understand that the Scripture does say that. Well, my friend you are right. There is nothing in scripture that will say those exact words. The closest we can come to those words, would be in a conversation that Jesus had with the Pharisees and the Jew's in John 8:13-59, where it says this:

13. "The Pharisees therefore said unto Him. You bear witness of Yourself; Your witness is not true. 14. Jesus answered and said to them, Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from and where I am going. 15. You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one. 16. And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me. 17. It is also written in our law that the testimony of two men is true. 18. I am One who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of Me. 19. Then they said to Him, where is your Father? Jesus answered, You know nor Me or My Father. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also. 20. These words Jesus spoke in the treasury, as He taught in the temple; and no one laid hands on Him, for His hour had not yet come. 21. Then Jesus said again, I am going away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin. Where I go you cannot come. 22. So the Jews said, will He kill Himself, because He says, where I go you cannot come? 23. And He said to them, You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24. Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins. 25. Then they said to Him, Who are You? And Jesus said to them, just as I have been saying to you from the beginning. 26. I have many things to say and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I heard from Him. 27. They did not understand that He spoke to them of the Father. 28. Then Jesus said to them, When you life up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He that I do nothing of Myself; But as My Father taught Me, I speak these things. 29. And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him. 30. As He spoke these words, many believed in Him. 31. Then Jesus said to those Jews WHO BELIEVED HIM, If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 33. They answered Him, We are Abraham's descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can you say, you will be made free? 34. Jesus answered them, Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35. And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36. Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed. 37. I KNOW THAT YOU ARE ABRAHAM'S DESCENDANTS, but you seek to kill Me, BECAUSE MY WORD HAS NO PLACE IN YOU. 38. I speak what I have seen with My Father, AND YOU DO WHAT YOU HAVE SEEN WITH YOUR FATHER. 39. They answered and said to Him, Abraham is our father. Jesus said to them, If you were Abraham's children, YOU WOULD DO THE WORKS OF ABRAHAM. 40. But now you seek to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth WHICH I HEARD FROM GOD. ABRAHAM DID NOT DO THIS. 41. You do the deeds of your father. Then they said to Him, We are not born of fornication; we have one Father, God. 42. Jesus said to them, If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceed forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43. Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44. You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45. But because I tell you the truth, you do not believe Me. 46. Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47. He who is of God hears God's words: THEREFORE YOU DO NOT HEAR, BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT OF GOD. 48. Then the Jews answered and said to Him, Do we not say rightly that You are a Samaritan and have a demon? 49. Jesus answered, I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me. 50. And I do not seek My own glory; there is One who seeks and judges. 51. Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My words he shall never see death. 52. Then the Jews said to Him, Now we know that You have a demon! Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and You say, If anyone keeps My word he shall never taste death. 53. Are You greater then our father Abraham, who is dead? And the prophets are dead. Who do You make Yourself out to be? 54. Jesus answered, If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your God. 55. Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, I do not know Him, I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word. 56. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad. 57. Then the Jews said to Him, You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham? 58. Jesus said to them, Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM. 59. Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple going through the midst of them, and so passed by."

As you can see through these scriptures by the writer John.....Jesus himself told the Jews, that they were not Christians. They thought that they were Christians b/c they believed in God. But Jesus made it clear that it took more then just believing in God to be a true believer. It took heart, not just mind. Now....did Jesus love these Jews.....Yes. Did Jesus say that they repent.....Yes...not in those exact words did Jesus say that. But I believe that these words from Jesus would qualify.

31. Then Jesus said to those Jews WHO BELIEVED HIM, If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

51. Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My words he shall never see death.

Did Jesus know the works of these Jews....Yes. They were the Religious leaders of that day. They taught the scriptures in the temples of that day. Of coarse He knew. But He also knew that what they did, was not for God....it was for themselves. Why? Because they did not have a heart for God....hey had a heart for the devil (or the world) Jesus said so in these verses:

33. They answered Him, We are Abraham's descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can you say, you will be made free? 34. Jesus answered them, Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35. And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36. Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed. 37. I KNOW THAT YOU ARE ABRAHAM'S DESCENDANTS, but you seek to kill Me, BECAUSE MY WORD HAS NO PLACE IN YOU. 38. I speak what I have seen with My Father, AND YOU DO WHAT YOU HAVE SEEN WITH YOUR FATHER. 39. They answered and said to Him, Abraham is our father. Jesus said to them, If you were Abraham's children, YOU WOULD DO THE WORKS OF ABRAHAM. 40. But now you seek to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth WHICH I HEARD FROM GOD. ABRAHAM DID NOT DO THIS. 41. You do the deeds of your father. Then they said to Him, We are not born of fornication; we have one Father, God. 42. Jesus said to them, If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceed forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43. Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44. You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45. But because I tell you the truth, you do not believe Me.

These Jews were the Church of Laodicea of there time. They were people who were not Hot, nor were they cold. What they were was lukewarm. And a lukewarm Christian is of no use to God. They had the Church of Laodicea back then, who were people just like these Jews were, who are Christians through their minds and not through there hearts. Just like there are Christians now, who are Christians with there minds, and not with there hearts. Jesus called all of those believers out then and told them that they were not believers. And if Jesus can....so can we, b/c if we don't....they will be lost forever. It is our duty to Our Lord to do so. But we do it with Love. Not by jamming scripture down there throat.
There is no denying what I am telling you....b/c scripture can prove it though out the Bible.

We are just getting started my friend....

If you don't understand;)

God Bless,

Dave


Well again, you have not addressed the issue. Let me define this better so we can get to issue. In what you have posted here, you are trying to show the difference between a believer and a true believer. There is no difference. If you and I believe something to be true, can you believe it is true more than I can? We either believe that it is true or we don't.

The Scripture you quoted above does not address the issue because, for one thing the Jews were not Christians, and they never claimed to be. They believed they would be saved because of their birth as an Israelite.

This is issue, just because someone claims to believe, does not make them a believer. The church is filled with people who claim to believe, they are "not" believers, they are people who claim to believe. A believer is a follower of Christ, it someone who believes what Christ said and taught. It is a person who follows Christ, a person who seeks the kingdom first, one who lays down his life for Christ. It is not someone who goes to church and says, I believe. Now with that said, the Scriptures speak of those who hear the word and receive it, but later turn away because of trials and tribulations. These people are saved, the Scriptures do not say, they were fake believers or that weren't true believers, it says they received the word. They accepted the word, what Jesus said and what He taught. Yet later they were not willing to suffer the cost that Jesus spoke of, and thus they went back to their old life.

So what you guys have set up as the true believer vs. the believer, is in reality nothing more than the believer vs. the unbeliever (claiming to believe). The Scriptures do not make this comparison, We do not see in Scripture, the true believer, the believer and the unbeliever. We see the believer and the non believer.

Butch5
Dec 29th 2008, 05:38 PM
BroRog---In such a case, we know they never had the Holy Spirit.


How does one become a believer in Christ and not receive the holy Spirit????


BroRog---It's true by definition. If a person perseveres to the end, they were a true believer.

It may be true By definition. however that is not what I was responding to. I was responding to the way it was used in the OP.


BroRog---Yes, the word "if" is a conditional. But when used in a definition, it merely sets up the conditions under which the predicate is true. In other words, by definition anyone who holds the beginning of our confidence to the end is someone who has been made a partaker of Christ. Those who were not made partakers of Christ will not make it to the end.

You are changing the wording. The verse does not say those who "were" made parttakers, will persevere to the end. It says, we are made parttakers "if" we hold fast to the end. We are "not" made parttaker until we hold fast to the end. So the statement "is" conditional and "not" a guarrentee.



BroRog---What do you mean "no matter what happens"? I think that category is too big to be meaningful or interesting. Three Apostles, Peter, James and Paul, each teach us that we can have confidence that we will make it to the end when our faith is tested, authenticated, and certified. Peter, for instance, says that the testing of our faith is more precious than Gold. James says that we should count it all joy when we suffer trials, and Paul says that when the testing of our faith leads to attestedness, our hope will not disappoint.

The category is to big?? Seriously, that is no way around the obvious. there are many things that can happen in life. People can suffer and turn from God because of things that happen in their lives.

You are correct the apostles do tell us we can be confident, however, Confidences is not a guarrantee. I can be confident that I will win a game, however, that is not a guarranteee that I will win the game.



BroRog---Once our faith has been tested, though, all ambiguity has been removed. Anyone having gone through these trials with faith still in tact can honestly say with confidence that they will make it to the end.

How do you know when your testing is done and you have successfully gone though to this place of guarranteed confidence? How many tirals?

We cannot know until death that the trials are over. Jesus said in this life you will have trials.


BroRog---Not only this, but we have a guarantee that God will not test us beyond our ability to bear it. And Jesus taught us to pray "lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil", which if we unpack that prayer we understand this to be a petition that God will not lead us into a trial that will destroy us.

Yes, what are you getting at? Just because someone can bear a trial doesn't necessetate that they are willing to go through the trial.


BroRog---I recommend that anyone who has doubt about their faith should read Romans 5, and James 1, and 1Peter 1, which talk about the testing of our faith and the confident assurance of our perseverance such trials bring.

I have no doubt about the confidence that trials bring, however there is "no" guarrantee, the Scriptures simply do not guarrantee we will not turn from Christ, as long as man has free will, the possibility exists.

Butch5
Dec 29th 2008, 05:40 PM
Does that then mean, we are not partakers of Christ until the end?

And yet you go on to Heb 6:

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost.

You say that these were partakers, and yet we are not partakers, unless we hold on until the end.

The holy Spirit is not Christ.

Rookie78
Dec 29th 2008, 05:52 PM
Romans 6:1-14

1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with,[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=6&version=31#fen-NIV-28060a)] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
8Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
11In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.



This is talking about true christians. We are under grace. There is no warning of the Holy Spirit leaving.

reformedct
Dec 29th 2008, 06:30 PM
The holy Spirit is not Christ.


if you continue reading the passage the very next verses illustrate this point. They talk about rain falling on a field, one produces thorns and thistles, the other produces fruit. Partakers of the Holy Spirit are recievers of things of the Spirit. This could be recieving a miraculous healing, this could be the preaching of the Word which is Spirit, this could be feeling the pulling of the Spirit. It does not mean they are saved or born again. they are exactly what the verse says: partakers of the Spirit. it doesnt mean they are born again unless you just assume that. But as i said the very next verses in Hebrews 6 paints a picture of this situation. It doesnt say, one firld produced fruit but then the fruit shriveled up and thorns came. It says one never produced fruit just thorns, and the other produced fruit. Two seperate fields. To seperate kinds of people. Also, right after the illustration in Hebrews 6, The writer says: though i talk this way, i have better things concerning YOU, things that deal with salvation". He makes it clear that the previous incident was not reffering to someone who has experienced salvation

read the whole chapter and it will be plain.

BCF
Dec 29th 2008, 07:39 PM
Butch5

In a sense you are correct. But mind you I said in a sense. I did not say that I agreed. You are in a sense correct, b/c we are not taught Scripture in it's deepest points in our Churches. Simply b/c of the time factor. We can only have so much time to teach a sermon in our Churches. We can continue a sermon the next week on the same topic.....but not everyone in the church is going to remember what the topic was about the week before. The only way that they would remember, is if they would study the topic that was mentioned the week before, during the week, so they could follow along with the continuing topic the next week. Unfortunately, not many do. Simply b/c they say that they don't have the time. Those people who do not have the time to study the scripture at home, so that they can get deeply rooted into a sermon that has been placed on the Heart of there Pastor, by God to teach his our hers congregation, would be what the Bible calls a believer. How do I know this? Well....here is one example for you to ponder over:

1. Show me a place in scripture where it says this in any form of a sentence at all:

"If one does not have time for my word, you are truly a disciple of mine."

If you can find a scripture that describes that in any way...well then what you are saying can be true when you say the following:

[quote=Butch5;1921888]
"So what you guys have set up as the true believer vs. the believer, is in reality nothing more than the believer vs. the unbeliever (claiming to believe)."

Now.....since I know that you will not be able to find such a scripture, I will provide a scripture that we can find that Jesus said, which will fit those who do not study the Scripture all are believers.

Matthew 13:20-22: (NKJV)

"20.But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21. yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 22. Now he who received seed among thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful."

These three verses describes the believer as I have described the believer above. Did the people above believe in God? Yes. Did they believe in God with all of there heart? No. Did they believe God with there minds? Yes. Is Jesus God? Yes. So are they a Christian? Yes. How do I know? Because the definition of a Christian is this:

"A believer in Jesus as the Messiah prophesied in the OT, or in the religion based on the teachings of Jesus."

Did the people that I described at the beginning of this reply do what the definition of a Christian is? Yes. The only thing that they did not do was what Jesus calls a Christian, which is the following.

Matthew 16: 24-26 (NKJV)

"24. If any man desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 25. For whoever desires to save his life shall lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26. For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?

This would be the description of a believer in Jesus, who is a Christian by mind.....but not by heart. Are they saved....they think they are....and there are many many like this. But they are not saved. But they are a Christian. You do not need to be saved to be called a Christian. You need to be Born Again and Saved, Baptized by the Holy Spirit, in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. That is Gods rule not mine.

John 3:5-6 (NKJV)

"5. Most assuredly, I say unto you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God. 6. That which i born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of Spirit is spirit. 7. Do not marvel that I said to you, You must be born again.

This concludes the teaching of a Believer in the scripture, and the proof that there is such a thing. I must go for hay right now. Will be back later to give my thoughts on what the scripture has to say about a non believer.

God Bless,

Dave:)

BroRog
Dec 29th 2008, 08:18 PM
How does one become a believer in Christ and not receive the holy Spirit????

I'll give you an example. To believe something is to merely give mental assent to an idea; and some people are willing to give mental assent to the core teachings of Christianity for a number of reasons. Perhaps a man's girlfriend goes to church and out of love for her, he decides to become a member of her church and affirm the church's creed. His willingness to affirm the creeds is not based on a move of the Spirit but on a love for a woman.


It may be true By definition. however that is not what I was responding to. I was responding to the way it was used in the OP.


The point is, not every conditional statement in the NT describes the contingency of salvation.

When I say, a man is a bachelor if he remains unmarried. I am merely defining what it means to be a bachelor. I'm not suggesting or implying anything else.


You are changing the wording. The verse does not say those who "were" made parttakers, will persevere to the end. It says, we are made parttakers "if" we hold fast to the end. We are "not" made parttaker until we hold fast to the end. So the statement "is" conditional and "not" a guarrentee.


I agree that the statement is in the form of a conditional. But the conditional aspect of the statement doesn't come with the ambiguity you press. You want to say that a man was once a partaker of Christ, but since he didn't hold fast to the end, then he stopped being a partaker of Christ.

Whereas you want it to read as an "on-again-off-again" situation, the verse merely defines what it means to partake in Christ. He isn't saying, "you hold fast now, but you might give up some day."

The issue here in Chapter 3 is unique to the Hebrew people who grew up with the expectation of a coming Messiah. To "hold fast to the beginning assurance" isn't referring to a Christian's initial confession of faith. The "beginning assurance" is the Bible training they got as Hebrews boys and girls, reading their Bibles and listening to their parents. As young adults they sat in the Synogogue to hear the scriptures being read. And as older men and women, they listened to their Rabbi expound on the scriptures. All of this was their "beginning assurance", which they were about to leave behind because they were afraid to affirm the fact that Jesus was the Messiah.

This isn't about Christians leaving the faith. This is about Hebrews not accepting the idea that Jesus is the Messiah. A Hebrew man or woman must compare the scriptures with the life of Jesus and make the connection between the two. If they do, they become partakers of the Messiah. If they don't, they won't.

That's the point.


The category is to big?? Seriously, that is no way around the obvious. there are many things that can happen in life. People can suffer and turn from God because of things that happen in their lives.

Yes, this is always a possibility. But when you use a phrase like "no matter what happens" you automatically discount the very real fact that some people have the courage and strength to overcome these things.


You are correct the apostles do tell us we can be confident, however, Confidences is not a guarrantee. I can be confident that I will win a game, however, that is not a guarranteee that I will win the game.

We live in a world of narcissists. So when people boast today, their boast is usually an empty, foolish statement. Int Paul's letter to the Romans, he points out that we can boast in our hope for glory because when our faith is tested and leads to attestedness, we know that our hope will not disappoint, BECAUSE "the love of God has been poured out within our hearts throught the Holy Spirit." Romans 5


How do you know when your testing is done and you have successfully gone though to this place of guarranteed confidence? How many tirals?

All it takes is one trial of faith to know whether faith is genuine and firm enough to survive. If the faith perseveres once, it will continue to persevere. That's what these Apostles are saying. That's why Peter says the testing of our faith is more valuable than Gold. And that's why James says that we can take joy in these tests since the outcome will be good.


We cannot know until death that the trials are over. Jesus said in this life you will have trials.

That is where you and the Apostles disagree.


Yes, what are you getting at? Just because someone can bear a trial doesn't necessetate that they are willing to go through the trial.

It's not a matter of willingness. We don't know if our faith will survive the trials God brings our way until AFTER we have gone through them. At the same time, the Apostles are saying that once we have gone through them, we know that we will continue to go through them.

Nonetheless, we have assurances that God will not allow a child of his to go through a trial that would break him or her. That's his promise.


I have no doubt about the confidence that trials bring, however there is "no" guarrantee, the Scriptures simply do not guarrantee we will not turn from Christ, as long as man has free will, the possibility exists.

If you are not convinced by what the Apostles say, then I don't think there is anything I can say that will change your mind. You say there is no guarantee. The Apostles say otherwise. I just don't know why you find it nobel to constantly live in ambiguity.

reformedct
Dec 29th 2008, 08:37 PM
Butch5

In a sense you are correct. But mind you I said in a sense. I did not say that I agreed. You are in a sense correct, b/c we are not taught Scripture in it's deepest points in our Churches. Simply b/c of the time factor. We can only have so much time to teach a sermon in our Churches. We can continue a sermon the next week on the same topic.....but not everyone in the church is going to remember what the topic was about the week before. The only way that they would remember, is if they would study the topic that was mentioned the week before, during the week, so they could follow along with the continuing topic the next week. Unfortunately, not many do. Simply b/c they say that they don't have the time. Those people who do not have the time to study the scripture at home, so that they can get deeply rooted into a sermon that has been placed on the Heart of there Pastor, by God to teach his our hers congregation, would be what the Bible calls a believer. How do I know this? Well....here is one example for you to ponder over:

1. Show me a place in scripture where it says this in any form of a sentence at all:

"If one does not have time for my word, you are truly a disciple of mine."

If you can find a scripture that describes that in any way...well then what you are saying can be true when you say the following:

[quote=Butch5;1921888]
"So what you guys have set up as the true believer vs. the believer, is in reality nothing more than the believer vs. the unbeliever (claiming to believe)."

Now.....since I know that you will not be able to find such a scripture, I will provide a scripture that we can find that Jesus said, which will fit those who do not study the Scripture all are believers.

Matthew 13:20-22: (NKJV)

"20.But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21. yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 22. Now he who received seed among thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful."

These three verses describes the believer as I have described the believer above. Did the people above believe in God? Yes. Did they believe in God with all of there heart? No. Did they believe God with there minds? Yes. Is Jesus God? Yes. So are they a Christian? Yes. How do I know? Because the definition of a Christian is this:

"A believer in Jesus as the Messiah prophesied in the OT, or in the religion based on the teachings of Jesus."

Did the people that I described at the beginning of this reply do what the definition of a Christian is? Yes. The only thing that they did not do was what Jesus calls a Christian, which is the following.

Matthew 16: 24-26 (NKJV)

"24. If any man desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 25. For whoever desires to save his life shall lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26. For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?

This would be the description of a believer in Jesus, who is a Christian by mind.....but not by heart. Are they saved....they think they are....and there are many many like this. But they are not saved. But they are a Christian. You do not need to be saved to be called a Christian. You need to be Born Again and Saved, Baptized by the Holy Spirit, in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. That is Gods rule not mine.

John 3:5-6 (NKJV)

"5. Most assuredly, I say unto you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God. 6. That which i born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of Spirit is spirit. 7. Do not marvel that I said to you, You must be born again.

This concludes the teaching of a Believer in the scripture, and the proof that there is such a thing. I must go for hay right now. Will be back later to give my thoughts on what the scripture has to say about a non believer.

God Bless,

Dave:)


Thank you so much for that. There is this belief that everyone who "believes in Jesus" is a Christian. Everyone who goes to "church" (which in greek is ecclesia simply meaning a gathering) is a Christian. A Christian has the Spirit of Christ inside of them and sealing them unto the day of redemption. Those whom God justified he glorified. If someone doesnt make it to heaven they may have mentally thought they were justified but God did not justify them, because those whom he justified these He also glorified. Justification is not a future state it is a court ruling that it is decreed once a person comes to saving faith and it involves God Himself

reformedct
Dec 29th 2008, 08:44 PM
I'll give you an example. To believe something is to merely give mental assent to an idea; and some people are willing to give mental assent to the core teachings of Christianity for a number of reasons. Perhaps a man's girlfriend goes to church and out of love for her, he decides to become a member of her church and affirm the church's creed. His willingness to affirm the creeds is not based on a move of the Spirit but on a love for a woman.



The point is, not every conditional statement in the NT describes the contingency of salvation.

When I say, a man is a bachelor if he remains unmarried. I am merely defining what it means to be a bachelor. I'm not suggesting or implying anything else.



I agree that the statement is in the form of a conditional. But the conditional aspect of the statement doesn't come with the ambiguity you press. You want to say that a man was once a partaker of Christ, but since he didn't hold fast to the end, then he stopped being a partaker of Christ.

Whereas you want it to read as an "on-again-off-again" situation, the verse merely defines what it means to partake in Christ. He isn't saying, "you hold fast now, but you might give up some day."

The issue here in Chapter 3 is unique to the Hebrew people who grew up with the expectation of a coming Messiah. To "hold fast to the beginning assurance" isn't referring to a Christian's initial confession of faith. The "beginning assurance" is the Bible training they got as Hebrews boys and girls, reading their Bibles and listening to their parents. As young adults they sat in the Synogogue to hear the scriptures being read. And as older men and women, they listened to their Rabbi expound on the scriptures. All of this was their "beginning assurance", which they were about to leave behind because they were afraid to affirm the fact that Jesus was the Messiah.

This isn't about Christians leaving the faith. This is about Hebrews not accepting the idea that Jesus is the Messiah. A Hebrew man or woman must compare the scriptures with the life of Jesus and make the connection between the two. If they do, they become partakers of the Messiah. If they don't, they won't.

That's the point.



Yes, this is always a possibility. But when you use a phrase like "no matter what happens" you automatically discount the very real fact that some people have the courage and strength to overcome these things.



We live in a world of narcissists. So when people boast today, their boast is usually an empty, foolish statement. Int Paul's letter to the Romans, he points out that we can boast in our hope for glory because when our faith is tested and leads to attestedness, we know that our hope will not disappoint, BECAUSE "the love of God has been poured out within our hearts throught the Holy Spirit." Romans 5



All it takes is one trial of faith to know whether faith is genuine and firm enough to survive. If the faith perseveres once, it will continue to persevere. That's what these Apostles are saying. That's why Peter says the testing of our faith is more valuable than Gold. And that's why James says that we can take joy in these tests since the outcome will be good.



That is where you and the Apostles disagree.



It's not a matter of willingness. We don't know if our faith will survive the trials God brings our way until AFTER we have gone through them. At the same time, the Apostles are saying that once we have gone through them, we know that we will continue to go through them.

Nonetheless, we have assurances that God will not allow a child of his to go through a trial that would break him or her. That's his promise.



If you are not convinced by what the Apostles say, then I don't think there is anything I can say that will change your mind. You say there is no guarantee. The Apostles say otherwise. I just don't know why you find it nobel to constantly live in ambiguity.


the SPIRIT IS OUR GUARANTEE OF OUR INHERITENCE
Jesus says the Helper will be with us FOREVER
Bible says WE ARE SEALED
Bible says WE HAVE PASSED FROM DEATH TO LIFE AND WE ARE SEATED IN HEAVENLY PLACES ALREADY.

Butch5 says, no, you can fall off your heavenly seat then get back on then fall off then get back on

Butch says no gurantee

Butch says, seal can be broken

I take bible over Butch

how much more plain must it be said?

Partaker of Christ
Dec 29th 2008, 09:07 PM
The holy Spirit is not Christ.

Ok.

So now, We can partake of the Holy Spirit, without the partaking of Christ :hmm:

Butch5, do you declare that we now separate the Godhead, to make your theology fit.

Butch5
Dec 29th 2008, 09:08 PM
BCF---In a sense you are correct. But mind you I said in a sense. I did not say that I agreed. You are in a sense correct, b/c we are not taught Scripture in it's deepest points in our Churches. Simply b/c of the time factor. We can only have so much time to teach a sermon in our Churches. We can continue a sermon the next week on the same topic.....but not everyone in the church is going to remember what the topic was about the week before. The only way that they would remember, is if they would study the topic that was mentioned the week before, during the week, so they could follow along with the continuing topic the next week. Unfortunately, not many do. Simply b/c they say that they don't have the time. Those people who do not have the time to study the scripture at home, so that they can get deeply rooted into a sermon that has been placed on the Heart of there Pastor, by God to teach his our hers congregation, would be what the Bible calls a believer. How do I know this? Well....here is one example for you to ponder over:
1. Show me a place in scripture where it says this in any form of a sentence at all:
"If one does not have time for my word, you are truly a disciple of mine."
If you can find a scripture that describes that in any way...well then what you are saying can be true when you say the following:




"So what you guys have set up as the true believer vs. the believer, is in reality nothing more than the believer vs. the unbeliever (claiming to believe)."


This is a straw man my friend. I've not made any statements about how much a person studies vs. whether or not they are a Christian.


BCF--Now.....since I know that you will not be able to find such a scripture, I will provide a scripture that we can find that Jesus said, which will fit those who do not study the Scripture all are believers.
Matthew 13:20-22: (NKJV)
"20.But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21. yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 22. Now he who received seed among thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful."
These three verses describes the believer as I have described the believer above. Did the people above believe in God? Yes. Did they believe in God with all of there heart? No. Did they believe God with there minds? Yes. Is Jesus God? Yes. So are they a Christian? Yes. How do I know? Because the definition of a Christian is this:


You said, did they believe in God with all of their heart? No. Please show me where the Scripture states this. This is your argument, based on presuppositions. There is nothing, in this statement, that says they did not believe with their hearts. You are interpreting Scripture based on your theology.


BCF---"A believer in Jesus as the Messiah prophesied in the OT, or in the religion based on the teachings of Jesus."
Did the people that I described at the beginning of this reply do what the definition of a Christian is? Yes. The only thing that they did not do was what Jesus calls a Christian, which is the following.
Matthew 16: 24-26 (NKJV)
"24. If any man desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 25. For whoever desires to save his life shall lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26. For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?

This would be the description of a believer in Jesus, who is a Christian by mind.....but not by heart. Are they saved....they think they are....and there are many many like this. But they are not saved. But they are a
Christian. You do not need to be saved to be called a Christian. You need to be Born Again and Saved, Baptized by the Holy Spirit, in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. That is Gods rule not mine.



Verses 24-26, are not describing a Christian of mind only, as you claim. These are simply instructions of what one must do if they intend to follow Christ. If one would follow after Christ, he must lay down his life.
No, you do not need to be saved to be "called" a Christian, however you do need to be saved to "be" a Christian, and the writers of the NT were writing to believers.

Also my friend, you cannot be a Christian and not be saved, the prerequisite for being a Christian is to believe and follow Christ. One who does this is saved.


BCF--- John 3:5-6 (NKJV)
"5. Most assuredly, I say unto you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God. 6. That which i born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of Spirit is spirit. 7. Do not marvel that I said to you, You must be born again.

This concludes the teaching of a Believer in the scripture, and the proof that there is such a thing. I must go for hay right now. Will be back later to give my thoughts on what the scripture has to say about a non believer.


Another straw man, I never said Scripture didn't speak of the believer. I said it doesn't differentiate between the believer and the true believer, as you would have us believe.

reformedct
Dec 29th 2008, 09:15 PM
Verses 24-26, are not describing a Christian of mind only, as you claim. These are simply instructions of what one must do if they intend to follow Christ. If one would follow after Christ, he must lay down his life.
No, you do not need to be saved to be "called" a Christian, however you do need to be saved to "be" a Christian, and the writers of the NT were writing to believers.

Also my friend, you cannot be a Christian and not be saved, the prerequisite for being a Christian is to believe and follow Christ. One who does this is saved.



Another straw man, I never said Scripture didn't speak of the believer. I said it doesn't differentiate between the believer and the true believer, as you would have us believe.

so you are saying that someone who believes but HAS NO ROOT is born again? just so you know the scripture doesnt say: those who have no root are actually born again. If you say that you are reading it into scripture as most security-deniers do.

my Bible says they believe but have no root. The root is missing. the root is missing. At the ROOT there is no connection

Butch5
Dec 29th 2008, 09:17 PM
Ok.

So now, We can partake of the Holy Spirit, without the partaking of Christ :hmm:

Butch5, do you declare that we now separate the Godhead, to make your theology fit.

Not at all, the Godhead is the Father, Son, and Hoy Spirit. Three persons, one God(deity).

Partaker of Christ
Dec 29th 2008, 09:33 PM
Not at all, the Godhead is the Father, Son, and Hoy Spirit. Three persons, one God(deity).


Good. So then you agree, that to partake of the Holy Spirit, is to partake of Christ!

BCF
Dec 29th 2008, 09:42 PM
so you are saying that someone who believes but HAS NO ROOT is born again? just so you know the scripture doesnt say: those who have no root are actually born again. If you say that you are reading it into scripture as most security-deniers do.

my Bible says they believe but have no root. The root is missing. the root is missing. At the ROOT there is no connection


That is exactly right my friend....it is the Root that is missing.

Butch5,

Anyone who believes that Jesus is the Messiah, and believes the teachings of Jesus with there minds only and not there heart. Is called a Christian. They are called a Christian b/c of the definition of what a Christian is...which would be:

"A believer in Jesus as the Messiah prophesied in the OT, or in the religion based on the teachings of Jesus."

But this definition of a Christian is not Good enough for Jesus. The definition of a True Christian, which can only be found in scripture b/c scripture is the truth is:

Matthew 16: 24-26 (NKJV)

"24. If any man desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 25. For whoever desires to save his life shall lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26. For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?

Which would be a True Believer who believes with there mind and there Heart.

The problem that we have today, as well as they had back in the day of Jesus.....there were more Christians running around believing with there minds and not with there heart and minds, which is why Jesus gave the following verses in the Parable of the sower to show them:

Matthew 13:20-22: (NKJV)

"20.But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21. yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 22. Now he who received seed among thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful."

There is only one way to be a True Christian. That way is found in these verses:

John 3:5-6 (NKJV)

"5. Most assuredly, I say unto you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God. 6. That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of Spirit is spirit. 7. Do not marvel that I said to you, You must be born again.

Without doing this....you are nothing more but a Christian who believes in your mind that Christ died for your sins. You can not enter into the Kingdom of God no other way. You either believe in Christ with all of your Heart Soul and Mind, or you believe in Christ with just your Mind, our you don't believe in Christ at all. One of the three.

God is a Jealous God, and will not take a second seat to what someone believes with just there mind. God either wants all of you or none of you. We are either well Rooted in Christ, or our Roots are there but very shallow, or we don't have any Root at all.

God Bless,

Dave

Butch5
Dec 29th 2008, 10:05 PM
BCF---That is exactly right my friend....it is the Root that is missing.

Butch5,

Anyone who believes that Jesus is the Messiah, and believes the teachings of Jesus with there minds only and not there heart. Is called a Christian. They are called a Christian b/c of the definition of what a Christian is...which would be:


No, that is not a Christian, Christ said follow me. Your above description is what "you" call a Christian, it is not the Biblical definition of a Christian.


BCF---"A believer in Jesus as the Messiah prophesied in the OT, or in the religion based on the teachings of Jesus."

But this definition of a Christian is not Good enough for Jesus. The definition of a True Christian, which can only be found in scripture b/c scripture is the truth is:

Matthew 16: 24-26 (NKJV)

"24. If any man desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 25. For whoever desires to save his life shall lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26. For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?


I agree here, this is indeed the definition of a Christian.


BCF---Which would be a True Believer who believes with there mind and there Heart.

The problem that we have today, as well as they had back in the day of Jesus.....there were more Christians running around believing with there minds and not with there heart and minds, which is why Jesus gave the following verses in the Parable of the sower to show them:

Can you give me your source for saying that there were more Christians in Jesus time, who believed with their minds only?


BCF---Matthew 13:20-22: (NKJV)

"20.But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21. yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 22. Now he who received seed among thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful."

There is only one way to be a True Christian. That way is found in these verses:

John 3:5-6 (NKJV)

"5. Most assuredly, I say unto you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God. 6. That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of Spirit is spirit. 7. Do not marvel that I said to you, You must be born again.

Without doing this....you are nothing more but a Christian who believes in your mind that Christ died for your sins. You can not enter into the Kingdom of God no other way. You either believe in Christ with all of your Heart Soul and Mind, or you believe in Christ with just your Mind, our you don't believe in Christ at all. One of the three.


You are not a Christian if you do not follow Christ. No matter what words come out of your mouth.

You keep making these distinctions which the Scriptures do not make, could you please show me where they are?

Butch5
Dec 29th 2008, 10:06 PM
Good. So then you agree, that to partake of the Holy Spirit, is to partake of Christ!

No, they are not the same person.

Partaker of Christ
Dec 29th 2008, 10:33 PM
No, they are not the same person.

So do we have two Spirits, or One Spirit?

1Jn 5:12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Heb 7:24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Butch5
Dec 29th 2008, 10:41 PM
So do we have two Spirits, or One Spirit?

1Jn 5:12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Heb 7:24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

There is one Father, one Son, and one Holy Spirit. What is the Spirit of Christ? Is it not another name for the holy Spirit? As is the Spirit of God. The holy Spirit is called by several names. Notice your quote in Ephesians. There is one Spirit, and there is one Lord. The holy Spirit is the spirit, Jesus is the Lord, and there is one God and Father over all.

Partaker of Christ
Dec 29th 2008, 10:59 PM
There is one Father, one Son, and one Holy Spirit. What is the Spirit of Christ? Is it not another name for the holy Spirit? As is the Spirit of God. The holy Spirit is called by several names. Notice your quote in Ephesians. There is one Spirit, and there is one Lord. The holy Spirit is the spirit, Jesus is the Lord, and there is one God and Father over all.

I think you need to make your mind up Butch.

Do we partake of two Spirits or One Spirit?

Is the partaking of Christ, the same as partaking of the Spirit of Christ?

This may help you:

2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

As you said; One Lord, and Jesus is the Lord.

2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Jesus IS Lord
the Spirit IS Lord
The Father IS Lord.

= One Lord

BCF
Dec 30th 2008, 01:58 AM
Hi Butch5:)

Well at least we could agree on one thing in my last post to you.:pp

Let me ask you friend. What is your take on the parable of the sower in Matthew 13:20-22?

"20.But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21. yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 22. Now he who received seed among thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful."

Are you calling these people that Jesus is discribing non believers?

If so, well then you are going to have to explain to me how a non believer would receive the word of God with joy, as it states in verse 20.

God Bless,

Dave

Butch5
Dec 30th 2008, 03:26 AM
Hi Butch5:)

Well at least we could agree on one thing in my last post to you.:pp

Let me ask you friend. What is your take on the parable of the sower in Matthew 13:20-22?

"20.But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21. yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 22. Now he who received seed among thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful."

Are you calling these people that Jesus is discribing non believers?

If so, well then you are going to have to explain to me how a non believer would receive the word of God with joy, as it states in verse 20.

God Bless,

Dave

On the contrary, I am saying they are believers, as you would put it, true beleivers They are believers who turn away.

Butch5
Dec 30th 2008, 03:29 AM
I think you need to make your mind up Butch.

Do we partake of two Spirits or One Spirit?

Is the partaking of Christ, the same as partaking of the Spirit of Christ?

This may help you:

2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

As you said; One Lord, and Jesus is the Lord.

2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Jesus IS Lord
the Spirit IS Lord
The Father IS Lord.

= One Lord
Make up mind how? I have already stated that it is 3 persons, 1 God. Are you thinking that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one in the same person or Being? Or are they three different persons?

BCF
Dec 30th 2008, 04:35 AM
On the contrary, I am saying they are believers, as you would put it, true beleivers They are believers who turn away.

True believers who turn away from what? The Holy Spirit? Or the word of God?

Partaker of Christ
Dec 30th 2008, 01:55 PM
Make up mind how? I have already stated that it is 3 persons, 1 God. Are you thinking that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one in the same person or Being? Or are they three different persons?

How do we partake of Christ?

Firstfruits
Dec 30th 2008, 02:49 PM
I opened a thread similar to this but i guess it was too complex so lets keep it simple.

Can a born again(by the spirit not just a "decision") believer lose the Holy Spirit under the New Covenant

if so, provide Scripture

if not, provide Scripture

also when referencing the Spirits actions in the OT make sure you have Scripture as well that shows how that action is seen/done under the New Covenant

Not as long as they continue to live and walk in the Spirit;

Gal 5:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Gal 5:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Firstfruits

RogerW
Dec 30th 2008, 03:36 PM
Not as long as they continue to live and walk in the Spirit;

Gal 5:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Gal 5:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Firstfruits

Are you saying that if one who is born again of the Spirit chooses to fulfill the lust of the flesh by walking in the flesh, then the Holy Spirit will leave that person?

Many blessings,
RW

Firstfruits
Dec 30th 2008, 04:01 PM
Are you saying that if one who is born again of the Spirit chooses to fulfill the lust of the flesh by walking in the flesh, then the Holy Spirit will leave that person?

Many blessings,
RW

If they are not following the Spirit, will the Spirit follow them in the works of the flesh?

There is no unrighteousness in the Spirit of God.

Firstfruits

reformedct
Dec 30th 2008, 04:21 PM
If they are not following the Spirit, will the Spirit follow them in the works of the flesh?

There is no unrighteousness in the Spirit of God.

Firstfruits


once again this is a reason/logic argument that is not backed by Scripture


I see that some will just refuse to accept that the Spirit will never leave a true Christian. I guess they just dont want to believe God is that good, that even when we sin He is still with us.


The botom line is this:

We can argue all day, BUT THERE IS NOT ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE SAYING THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT WILL LEAVE A TRUE BELIEVER UNDER THE NEW AND BETTER COVENANT


BUT if you would like to build your doctrine on something that is not even in Scripture feel free.

Turning from Christ and losing the Holy SPirit ARE TWO SEPERATE THINGS.

LET ME REPEAT:

Turning from Christ and losing the Holy SPirit ARE TWO SEPERATE THINGS

Turning from Christ and losing the Holy SPirit ARE TWO SEPERATE THINGS

Turning from Christ and losing the Holy SPirit ARE TWO SEPERATE THINGS

Turning from Christ and losing the Holy SPirit ARE TWO SEPERATE THINGS

Turning from Christ and losing the Holy SPirit ARE TWO SEPERATE THINGS

Turning from Christ and losing the Holy SPirit ARE TWO SEPERATE THINGS

Turning from Christ and losing the Holy SPirit ARE TWO SEPERATE THINGS

Turning from Christ and losing the Holy SPirit ARE TWO SEPERATE THINGS

Turning from Christ and losing the Holy SPirit ARE TWO SEPERATE THINGS

Turning from Christ and losing the Holy SPirit ARE TWO SEPERATE THINGS

People turn from Christ all the time in Americas church of whitchcraft telling people to chant the sinners prayer and BAM they are saved, then when those people leave they ignorantly claim that person lost their salvation. No, they never HAD it. If they were of us they would have REMAINED
You all can argue about who is a true believer and whose not all you want but you cant find a Scripture saying the Holy Spirit left a person in whom He was indwelling under the new covenant. PERIOD.

One thing I have learned is that doctrines that are vague are usually false




I am done with this thread because no matter how many Scriptures are shown that the Spirit has sealed us people are still going to believe in their DOCTRINEs OF AMBIGUITY


BIBLE SAYS I am sealed by the Spirit and He will be with me forever. I will continue to believe the Bible which is very clear and plain, instead of some man-made ambiguous, unbiblical doctrine of losing that which has been promised to be with us forever. I will continue to rejoice and thank God for my unconditional security. Amen


:giveup:

Firstfruits
Dec 30th 2008, 04:28 PM
once again this is a reason/logic argument that is not backed by Scripture


I see that some will just refuse to accept that the Spirit will never leave a true Christian. I guess they just dont want to believe God is that good, that even when we sin He is still with us.


The botom line is this:

We can argue all day, BUT THERE IS NOT ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE SAYING THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT WILL LEAVE A TRUE BELIEVER UNDER THE NEW AND BETTER COVENANT


BUT if you would like to build your doctrine on something that is not even in Scripture feel free.

Turning from Christ and losing the Holy SPirit ARE TWO SEPERATE THINGS.

LET ME REPEAT:

Turning from Christ and losing the Holy SPirit ARE TWO SEPERATE THINGS

Turning from Christ and losing the Holy SPirit ARE TWO SEPERATE THINGS

Turning from Christ and losing the Holy SPirit ARE TWO SEPERATE THINGS

Turning from Christ and losing the Holy SPirit ARE TWO SEPERATE THINGS

Turning from Christ and losing the Holy SPirit ARE TWO SEPERATE THINGS

Turning from Christ and losing the Holy SPirit ARE TWO SEPERATE THINGS

Turning from Christ and losing the Holy SPirit ARE TWO SEPERATE THINGS

Turning from Christ and losing the Holy SPirit ARE TWO SEPERATE THINGS

Turning from Christ and losing the Holy SPirit ARE TWO SEPERATE THINGS

Turning from Christ and losing the Holy SPirit ARE TWO SEPERATE THINGS

People turn from Christ all the time in Americas church of whitchcraft telling people to chant the sinners prayer and BAM they are saved, then when those people leave they ignorantly claim that person lost their salvation. No, they never HAD it. If they were of us they would have REMAINED
You all can argue about who is a true believer and whose not all you want but you cant find a Scripture saying the Holy Spirit left a person in whom He was indwelling under the new covenant. PERIOD.

One thing I have learned is that doctrines that are vague are usually false




I am done with this thread because no matter how many Scriptures are shown that the Spirit has sealed us people are still going to believe in their DOCTRINEs OF AMBIGUITY


BIBLE SAYS I am sealed by the Spirit and He will be with me forever. I will continue to believe the Bible which is very clear and plain, instead of some man-made ambiguous, unbiblical doctrine of losing that which has been promised to be with us forever. I will continue to rejoice and thank God for my unconditional security. Amen


:giveup:

1 Jn 3:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

If we are following the Spirit, we are not fulfilling the works of the flesh, we are displaying the atributes of God.

Can God abide in us if we abide in sin or do not walk in the Spirit?

Firstfruits

reformedct
Dec 30th 2008, 04:36 PM
1 Jn 3:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

If we are following the Spirit, we are not fulfilling the works of the flesh, we are displaying the atributes of God.

Can God abide in us if we abide in sin or do not walk in the Spirit?

Firstfruits


How about this. you answer this one question and i will answer yours

Does the Bible ever say under the new covenant that the Spirit will leave those whom he has sealed and indwelled?????????

If you notice, the Scriptures you provide do not say that. All it says is in Him there is no sin. Duh, Hes God. What you don't have is a verse saying the Spirit will leave those who He indwells under the new covenant

RogerW
Dec 30th 2008, 04:40 PM
If they are not following the Spirit, will the Spirit follow them in the works of the flesh?

There is no unrighteousness in the Spirit of God.

Firstfruits

So, are you espousing a sinless perfection while clothed in corruptible, mortal bodies of death? Where does growing in sanctification and grace fit in with this sinless perfectionism? If I commit sin after salvation, and we all do, then the Holy Spirit abandons me, because there is no unrighteousness in the Spirit of God?

That's not at all what Scripture teaches us. While wearing mortal bodies of corruption and death, we fight against the enemies of the cross, which are our flesh, the world and Satan. We are not yet perfected, this is why we need the Holy Spirit to guide us, convicting us when we stumble or fall. We will not be made perfect until Christ comes again.

What is the role or work of the Holy Spirit in this life? Why, when we became saved did we receive Him as a deposit or down payment until Christ comes again? Why do we need the Spirit if we are already made perfect at salvation?

To teach that the Holy Spirit ever abandons believers is to say that Christ is not able to complete in us what He has begun, for without the Holy Spirit there is no hope for any man.

Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
Heb 13:6 So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Joh 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Joh 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

None of these passages speak of an exception clause. He gives us blessed assurance that He will never leave nor forsake His own...unless of course choose to walk in the flesh. No, instead He further states that He will be our helper...why do we need a helper? Could it be because we sometimes choose to walk by the flesh instead of the Spirit? Once we have been sealed by the Holy Spirit after hearing the gospel of salvation and believing, we have His promise to be with us to the end.

Many Blessings,
RW

BCF
Dec 30th 2008, 04:41 PM
1 Jn 3:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

If we are following the Spirit, we are not fulfilling the works of the flesh, we are displaying the atributes of God.

Can God abide in us if we abide in sin or do not walk in the Spirit?

Firstfruits

I think the question here is. Is everyone who calls themself a Christian, filled with the Spirit?

As I outlined before with scripture, the answer to that question would be.... No. The Jews who Jesus was talking to in Matthew 13, claimed to be following after God. But Jesus told them differently.

God Bless,

Dave

Firstfruits
Dec 30th 2008, 04:42 PM
How about this. you answer this one question and i will answer yours

Does the Bible ever say under the new covenant that the Spirit will leave those whom he has sealed and indwelled?????????

If you notice, the Scriptures you provide do not say that. All it says is in Him there is no sin. Duh, Hes God. What you don't have is a verse saying the Spirit will leave those who He indwells under the new covenant

If they do not say so does it mean that when we fulfil the lust of the flesh and we go to the lake of fire that the Spirit will go too?

If you walk in the Spirit he will not leave you, but that means you do not fulfil the works of the flesh.

Firstfruits

reformedct
Dec 30th 2008, 04:48 PM
If they do not say so does it mean that when we fulfil the lust of the flesh and we go to the lake of fire that the Spirit will go too?

If you walk in the Spirit he will not leave you, but that means you do not fulfil the works of the flesh.

Firstfruits


No because by one sacrifice he has perfected for all time those that are being sanctified. We are already perfect in Gods eyes. Why is it so hard for people to see?

You guys are building doctrine on your own reasoning/logic

oh well if you fulfill the lusts of the flesh the Spirit will leave you

WRONG. THATS NOT WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS. If you read it again you will see the Bible never says the Spirit will leave those he has sealed

If you would also understand that thru one mans obedience we are made righteous and that God promised to remove our sins and remember them no more it would all make sense but if you wont listen to Scripture then of course you wouldnt listen to me


:giveup:



p.s. you still never answered my question with Scripture. Because it is not in Scripture. That is wh you are arguing with your own logic/reasoning

Firstfruits
Dec 30th 2008, 04:51 PM
No because by one sacrifice he has perfected for all time those that are being sanctified. We are already perfect in Gods eyes. Why is it so hard for people to see?

You guys are building doctrine on your own reasoning/logic

oh well if you fulfill the lusts of the flesh the Spirit will leave you

WRONG. THATS NOT WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS. If you read it again you will see the Bible never says the Spirit will leave those he has sealed

If you would also understand that thru one mans obedience we are made righteous and that God promised to remove our sins and remember them no more it would all make sense but if you wont listen to Scripture then of course you wouldnt listen to me


:giveup:

So it is therefore ok for those of the Spirit to fulfil the works of the flesh without fear of retribution from God?

Firstfruits

Veretax
Dec 30th 2008, 04:52 PM
In order for me to believe that such is possible, I would have to believe that once put into the body by the Holy Spirit and in God's and Christ's collective hands that I in my physical or mental strength could ever wrestle myself from God's grasp. I don't believe such is possible. However, if it is possible from looking at that passage in Hebrews, I think its clear from Hebrews that if you did turn your back, that there is no way to be renewed again to repentance and turn back. Personally I don't believe such is possible for a Christian, but instead speaks of someone who we may think is a Christian, who hears the works and maybe strives to do Good works and then one day decides they've had enough and turns.

reformedct
Dec 30th 2008, 04:58 PM
So it is therefore ok for those of the Spirit to fulfil the works of the flesh without fear of retribution from God?

Firstfruits



shall we sin that grace may abound? By no means


you are still under bondage. you are trying to be justified by doing good and not doing bad, instead of accepting the grace of God.

if you have been born again you will not sin that grace may abound

p.s. you still never answered my original question w/ Scripture


Those whom he loves he chastens


God does punish His children but not with hell but as a loving Father disciplining His kids

Ascender
Dec 30th 2008, 06:08 PM
once again this is a reason/logic argument that is not backed by Scripture


I see that some will just refuse to accept that the Spirit will never leave a true Christian. I guess they just dont want to believe God is that good, that even when we sin He is still with us.


The botom line is this:

We can argue all day, BUT THERE IS NOT ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE SAYING THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT WILL LEAVE A TRUE BELIEVER UNDER THE NEW AND BETTER COVENANT


BUT if you would like to build your doctrine on something that is not even in Scripture feel free.

Turning from Christ and losing the Holy SPirit ARE TWO SEPERATE THINGS.

LET ME REPEAT:

Turning from Christ and losing the Holy SPirit ARE TWO SEPERATE THINGS

Turning from Christ and losing the Holy SPirit ARE TWO SEPERATE THINGS

Turning from Christ and losing the Holy SPirit ARE TWO SEPERATE THINGS

Turning from Christ and losing the Holy SPirit ARE TWO SEPERATE THINGS

Turning from Christ and losing the Holy SPirit ARE TWO SEPERATE THINGS

Turning from Christ and losing the Holy SPirit ARE TWO SEPERATE THINGS

Turning from Christ and losing the Holy SPirit ARE TWO SEPERATE THINGS

Turning from Christ and losing the Holy SPirit ARE TWO SEPERATE THINGS

Turning from Christ and losing the Holy SPirit ARE TWO SEPERATE THINGS

Turning from Christ and losing the Holy SPirit ARE TWO SEPERATE THINGS

People turn from Christ all the time in Americas church of whitchcraft telling people to chant the sinners prayer and BAM they are saved, then when those people leave they ignorantly claim that person lost their salvation. No, they never HAD it. If they were of us they would have REMAINED
You all can argue about who is a true believer and whose not all you want but you cant find a Scripture saying the Holy Spirit left a person in whom He was indwelling under the new covenant. PERIOD.

One thing I have learned is that doctrines that are vague are usually false




I am done with this thread because no matter how many Scriptures are shown that the Spirit has sealed us people are still going to believe in their DOCTRINEs OF AMBIGUITY


BIBLE SAYS I am sealed by the Spirit and He will be with me forever. I will continue to believe the Bible which is very clear and plain, instead of some man-made ambiguous, unbiblical doctrine of losing that which has been promised to be with us forever. I will continue to rejoice and thank God for my unconditional security. Amen


:giveup:

2 Pet 3:16-17
16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17 Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. (NIV)

Matt 24:4-14
4 Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you.
5 For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.
6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.
7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.
8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.
9 "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.
10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,
11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.
12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,
13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. (NIV)


Luke 8:11-15
11 "This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God.
12 Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.
13 Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.
14 The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life's worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature.
15 But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop. (NIV)


John 15:1-14
1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.
2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.
3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.
4 Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you.
8 This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
9 "As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love.
10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.
11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete.
12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.
13 Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.
14 You are my friends if you do what I command. (NIV)

Col 1:21-23
21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.
22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation--
23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant. (NIV)


Col 2:18-19
18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions.
19 He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.
(NIV)

1 Tim 1:3-7
3 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer
4 nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work-- which is by faith.
5 The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.
6 Some have wandered away from these and turned to meaningless talk.
7 They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm. (NIV)

1 Tim 1:18-20
18 Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight,
19 holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith.
20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme. (NIV)

1 Tim 4:1-16
1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.


1 Tim 5:11-15
11 As for younger widows, do not put them on such a list. For when their sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ, they want to marry.
12 Thus they bring judgment on themselves, because they have broken their first pledge.
13 Besides, they get into the habit of being idle and going about from house to house. And not only do they become idlers, but also gossips and busybodies, saying things they ought not to.
14 So I counsel younger widows to marry, to have children, to manage their homes and to give the enemy no opportunity for slander.
15 Some have in fact already turned away to follow Satan. (NIV)

1 Tim 6:17-21
17 Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment.
18 Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share.
19 In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life.
20 Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge,
21 which some have professed and in so doing have wandered from the faith. Grace be with you.
(NIV)

2 Tim 2:11-18
11 Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him, we will also live with him;
12 if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;
13 if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself.
14 Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.
15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.
16 Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly.
17 Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,
18 who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some. (NIV)


I agree that a TRUE BELIEVER has no worry about the departure of the Holy Spirit, but the above is just a few passages you might need to address.

Partaker of Christ
Dec 30th 2008, 06:57 PM
2Ti 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
Have we died with Him?
Yes, so we WILL also live with Him.

2Ti 2:12a If we suffer, we shall also reign with him:
Do we suffer? we SHALL also reign with Him.

2Ti 2:12b if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Now does this 'deny' mean that we will be eternally separated from Him?
I tend think not. If so then what of Peter?

To deny Him, can be many things. If the Lord say "let not your heart be troubled" and we continue to be troubled. Have we not denied Him?
If the Lord says. "never will I leave you nor forsake you", and we are not content with what we have. Have we not denied Him?
If a brother is weak in the faith, has he not denied Him?

My understanding is; Only when we put our trust in Him, will we be free, and find the peace and joy we can have in Him. If we are not trusting in Him, then He will deny the peace and joy we seek, until we do learn to trust Him.

2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Many believe that it is the Lord alone that saves, but many also wrongly believe, that the Lord will not keep them. If it depends even one jot, that we have to keep ourselves, then it is not the Lord alone who saves. If I have to keep myself saved, then it is my own glory.

It does not say what this "believe not" is.
Do you believe that you can drink poison, or pick up a snake, and it will not harm you? What about jumping of the top of the temple?

2Ti 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

RogerW
Dec 30th 2008, 07:03 PM
2 Pet 3:16-17
16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17 Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. (NIV)

In other words...don't be like ignorant, unstable people who distort the Scriptures to their own destruction. Does this sound like one who is born of the Spirit? Believers don't try to distort and deceive others to their own destruction.



Matt 24:4-14
4 Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you.
5 For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.
6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.
7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.
8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.
9 "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.
10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,
11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.
12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,
13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. (NIV)

Who is turning away from the faith; believers or deceivers who come in His name, called false prophets? Believers, indwelt by the Holy Spirit will NOT turn away from the faith.



Luke 8:11-15
11 "This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God.
12 Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.
13 Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.
14 The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life's worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature.
15 But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop. (NIV)

The ones who fall away are those who professed faith, but did not have THE ROOT (Christ), and those who never believed. Notice the true Christian hears from a good heart, and retains what is heard and perseveres.



John 15:1-14
1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.
2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.
3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.
4 Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you.
8 This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
9 "As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love.
10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.
11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete.
12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.
13 Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.
14 You are my friends if you do what I command. (NIV)

The one who is made clean because of the Word remains in the Vine, and the Vine in him, and bears fruit.



Col 1:21-23
21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.
22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation--
23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant. (NIV)

When we have been reconciled to Christ, through His death, we will be presented to the Father without blemish and free from accusation, because those born of the Spirit WILL CONTINUE in faith.



Col 2:18-19
18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions.
19 He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.
(NIV)

Is one of false humility, worshipping angels, unspiritual puffed up mind, disconnected from the Head a description of a believer?



1 Tim 1:3-7
3 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer
4 nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work-- which is by faith.
5 The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.
6 Some have wandered away from these and turned to meaningless talk.
7 They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm. (NIV)

Again, a warning to believers to be on guard against certain men teaching false doctrines, devoting themselves to myths and endless genealogies, promoting controversies rather than God's work. Believers have a pure heart and a good conscience, and sincere faith, so don't let these certain men cause you to wander away from love from a pure heart and good conscience and sincere faith. Paul does not say don't let these false allow you to lose your salvation, or cause the HS to depart from you.



1 Tim 1:18-20
18 Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight,
19 holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith.
20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme. (NIV)

Those who shipwreck their faith are not those holding on to faith through the power of the Spirit. Hymenaeus and Alexander have faith like the devils, a mental assent of Who Christ is, without saving grace.



1 Tim 4:1-16
1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.

Those whose faith follows deceiving spirits and things taught by demons, teachings of hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared do not have saving faith. Paul tells young Timothy "Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee."



1 Tim 5:11-15
11 As for younger widows, do not put them on such a list. For when their sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ, they want to marry.
12 Thus they bring judgment on themselves, because they have broken their first pledge.
13 Besides, they get into the habit of being idle and going about from house to house. And not only do they become idlers, but also gossips and busybodies, saying things they ought not to.
14 So I counsel younger widows to marry, to have children, to manage their homes and to give the enemy no opportunity for slander.
15 Some have in fact already turned away to follow Satan. (NIV)

Who has turned away to follow Satan? Believers or those of sensual desires, being idle, gossips, busybodies, saying things they ought not say? The believers know how to manage their own homes and give no opportunity for the enemy, the slanderer; Satan.



1 Tim 6:17-21
17 Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment.
18 Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share.
19 In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life.
20 Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge,
21 which some have professed and in so doing have wandered from the faith. Grace be with you.
(NIV)

Again, read the passage...who wanders from the faith? Those of godless chatter, opposing ideas and what they falsely call knowledge, which shows no saving faith at all.



2 Tim 2:11-18
11 Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him, we will also live with him;
12 if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;
13 if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself.
14 Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.
15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.
16 Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly.
17 Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,
18 who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some. (NIV)

Who has wandered away from the truth? Believers...no way! It is Hymenaeus and Philetus, who say the resurrection has already come. Do believers say the resurrection has already taken place?



I agree that a TRUE BELIEVER has no worry about the departure of the Holy Spirit, but the above is just a few passages you might need to address.


A TRUE BELIEVER is kept by the power of God unto the coming of the Lord.

Many Blessings,
RW

Firstfruits
Dec 30th 2008, 07:08 PM
So, are you espousing a sinless perfection while clothed in corruptible, mortal bodies of death? Where does growing in sanctification and grace fit in with this sinless perfectionism? If I commit sin after salvation, and we all do, then the Holy Spirit abandons me, because there is no unrighteousness in the Spirit of God?

That's not at all what Scripture teaches us. While wearing mortal bodies of corruption and death, we fight against the enemies of the cross, which are our flesh, the world and Satan. We are not yet perfected, this is why we need the Holy Spirit to guide us, convicting us when we stumble or fall. We will not be made perfect until Christ comes again.

What is the role or work of the Holy Spirit in this life? Why, when we became saved did we receive Him as a deposit or down payment until Christ comes again? Why do we need the Spirit if we are already made perfect at salvation?

To teach that the Holy Spirit ever abandons believers is to say that Christ is not able to complete in us what He has begun, for without the Holy Spirit there is no hope for any man.

Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
Heb 13:6 So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Joh 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Joh 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

None of these passages speak of an exception clause. He gives us blessed assurance that He will never leave nor forsake His own...unless of course choose to walk in the flesh. No, instead He further states that He will be our helper...why do we need a helper? Could it be because we sometimes choose to walk by the flesh instead of the Spirit? Once we have been sealed by the Holy Spirit after hearing the gospel of salvation and believing, we have His promise to be with us to the end.

Many Blessings,
RW

I believe the question is regarding true Christians, those that are walking in the Spirit.

Are we also talking about those that are not true Christians?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Dec 30th 2008, 07:15 PM
shall we sin that grace may abound? By no means


you are still under bondage. you are trying to be justified by doing good and not doing bad, instead of accepting the grace of God.

if you have been born again you will not sin that grace may abound

p.s. you still never answered my original question w/ Scripture


Those whom he loves he chastens


God does punish His children but not with hell but as a loving Father disciplining His kids

How do we not fulfil the lusts of the flesh, is it not by temperance?

Firstfruits

BCF
Dec 30th 2008, 07:15 PM
I believe the question is regarding true Christians, those that are walking in the Spirit.

Are we also talking about those that are not true Christians?

Firstfruits

I asked this question back on post 109, that I guess got lost somewhere in the shuffle.

God Bless,

Dave

Ascender
Dec 30th 2008, 07:20 PM
And thus we have it. The 1.89 percent variation of those who are unconditional and those who are conditional. As demonstrated above it depends on what you put in bold and underline in your Bible.:rolleyes:

I accept a conditional election and the reality that as long as I stand in Christ and persevere to the end, I am saved and sanctified and glorified.

I have great friends who are of the unconditional persuasion and fully believe that there is nothing that can come between them and the Father -- they stand in Christ, and persevere and bear much fruit just as I do.

We are both disciples of Christ Jesus and empowered by His Spirit to do His Will and Accomplish His Purposes.

Where we cannot agree or see things at odds with each other, why do we let such things divide us?:hmm:

Firstfruits
Dec 30th 2008, 07:29 PM
I asked this question back on post 109, that I guess got lost somewhere in the shuffle.

God Bless,

Dave

Let us see if this can be answered, because unless we do we will be going back and forth.

As far as scripture affirms a TRUE Christian has nothing to fear, wereas a false Christian has much to fear.

Firstfruits

Partaker of Christ
Dec 30th 2008, 07:34 PM
2 Pet 3:16-17
16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17 Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. (NIV)

Hi Ascender!
The better translation is "fall from your stedfastness"
It simply means you will become unstable. You will lose peace, joy and contentment.


Matt 24:4-14
4 Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you.
5 For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.
6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.
7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.
8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.
9 "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.
10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,
11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.
12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,
13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. (NIV)

"And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another"
Are these Christians?
Well according to John 'No' for how can one say he loves God, yet hates his brother?
John says, that he is a liar, and there is no light in him.

These are the same, who receive the word, but their hearts are as rock, and they have no root.


Luke 8:11-15
11 "This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God.
12 Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.
13 Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.
14 The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life's worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature.
15 But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop. (NIV)

Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

There is no if's, may be, or buts with the good ground. They hear the word, they keep it, and they bring forth fruit with patience.


John 15:1-14
1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.
2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.
3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.
4 Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you.
8 This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
9 "As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love.
10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.
11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete.
12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.
13 Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.
14 You are my friends if you do what I command. (NIV)

This is all about bearing fruit, and nothing to do with salvation.

v 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. To bear 'good' fruit we need to be in the True Vine, for apart from Him, we can do nothing. It means that we need to trust in Him, seek His face, draw from Him for all our needs. If we seek to meet our needs, solve our problems, or get our answers outside of Him, then we will not be fruitful.

Who are His friends?


Col 1:21-23
21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.
22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation--
23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant. (NIV)

If the word is received in the good ground, we will be rooted and established.

Luke 8:18 Take heed therefore how ye hear:


Col 2:18-19
18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions.
19 He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.
(NIV)

1 Tim 1:3-7
3 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer
4 nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work-- which is by faith.
5 The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.
6 Some have wandered away from these and turned to meaningless talk.
7 They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm. (NIV)

1 Tim 1:18-20
18 Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight,
19 holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith.
20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme. (NIV)

1 Tim 4:1-16
1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.


1 Tim 5:11-15
11 As for younger widows, do not put them on such a list. For when their sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ, they want to marry.
12 Thus they bring judgment on themselves, because they have broken their first pledge.
13 Besides, they get into the habit of being idle and going about from house to house. And not only do they become idlers, but also gossips and busybodies, saying things they ought not to.
14 So I counsel younger widows to marry, to have children, to manage their homes and to give the enemy no opportunity for slander.
15 Some have in fact already turned away to follow Satan. (NIV)

1 Tim 6:17-21
17 Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment.
18 Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share.
19 In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life.
20 Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge,
21 which some have professed and in so doing have wandered from the faith. Grace be with you.
(NIV)

2 Tim 2:11-18
11 Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him, we will also live with him;
12 if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;
13 if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself.
14 Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.
15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.
16 Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly.
17 Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,
18 who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some. (NIV)


I agree that a TRUE BELIEVER has no worry about the departure of the Holy Spirit, but the above is just a few passages you might need to address.

BCF
Dec 30th 2008, 07:35 PM
Let us see if this can be answered, because unless we do we will be going back and forth.

As far as scripture affirms a TRUE Christian has nothing to fear, wereas a false Christian has much to fear.

Firstfruits

That would be correct.....from what I read out of scripture. The problem is....folks don't believe that their is such a thing as a false Christian. When Jesus himself spoke about false Christians, along with Paul, Peter, Jude, and we find it in Revelations. So if the scripture says that there is such a thing as false Christians....why is it that folks don't believe it?

That's been my question all along.

God Bless,

Dave

Firstfruits
Dec 30th 2008, 07:42 PM
That would be correct.....from what I read out of scripture. The problem is....folks don't believe that their is such a thing as a false Christian. When Jesus himself spoke about false Christians, along with Paul, Peter, Jude, and we find it in Revelations. So if the scripture says that there is such a thing as false Christians....why is it that folks don't believe it?

That's been my question all along.

God Bless,

Dave

It is as though we are saying that there are no false teachers,or no false doctrines, no false Gospels, and henceforth false Christians.

Firstfruits

Butch5
Dec 30th 2008, 08:39 PM
2Ti 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
Have we died with Him?
Yes, so we WILL also live with Him.

2Ti 2:12a If we suffer, we shall also reign with him:
Do we suffer? we SHALL also reign with Him.

2Ti 2:12b if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Now does this 'deny' mean that we will be eternally separated from Him?
I tend think not. If so then what of Peter?

To deny Him, can be many things. If the Lord say "let not your heart be troubled" and we continue to be troubled. Have we not denied Him?
If the Lord says. "never will I leave you nor forsake you", and we are not content with what we have. Have we not denied Him?
If a brother is weak in the faith, has he not denied Him?

My understanding is; Only when we put our trust in Him, will we be free, and find the peace and joy we can have in Him. If we are not trusting in Him, then He will deny the peace and joy we seek, until we do learn to trust Him.

2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Many believe that it is the Lord alone that saves, but many also wrongly believe, that the Lord will not keep them. If it depends even one jot, that we have to keep ourselves, then it is not the Lord alone who saves. If I have to keep myself saved, then it is my own glory.

It does not say what this "believe not" is.
Do you believe that you can drink poison, or pick up a snake, and it will not harm you? What about jumping of the top of the temple?

2Ti 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

"if we believe not" what do you suppose that means? Paul a (true) Christian, making that statement to Timothy, another (true) Christian. How could a true Christian believe not?

Ascender
Dec 30th 2008, 08:43 PM
Let us see if this can be answered, because unless we do we will be going back and forth.

As far as scripture affirms a TRUE Christian has nothing to fear, wereas a false Christian has much to fear.

Firstfruits

As far as that goes I think any Arminian and Calvinist would agree. What is "Real" is the defintion we need to consider.

Ascender
Dec 30th 2008, 08:46 PM
That would be correct.....from what I read out of scripture. The problem is....folks don't believe that their is such a thing as a false Christian. When Jesus himself spoke about false Christians, along with Paul, Peter, Jude, and we find it in Revelations. So if the scripture says that there is such a thing as false Christians....why is it that folks don't believe it?

That's been my question all along.

God Bless,

Dave

Wheat and Tares grow up alongside each other and the wheat that is improperly discipled in churches that do not practice discipline, thus making no distinction allow the wheat to turn to chaff. IMHO.

Firstfruits
Dec 30th 2008, 09:27 PM
Wheat and Tares grow up alongside each other and the wheat that is improperly discipled in churches that do not practice discipline, thus making no distinction allow the wheat to turn to chaff. IMHO.

Let us not foget what Jesus said concering the fruit and the vine;

Jn 15:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Jn 15:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

Jn 15:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Jn 15:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

Not everyone that claims to be a Christian abides in Christ.

Firstfruits

BCF
Dec 30th 2008, 09:35 PM
It is as though we are saying that there are no false teachers,or no false doctrines, no false Gospels, and henceforth false Christians.

Firstfruits

Well.....yeah....that is what some folks are thinking here. I mean think about it. The antichrist. Who is he going to claim to be? From everything that I gather from scripture, he is going to make himself out to be a Christian. From what I am reading here...on what people are defining as a Christan (a believer) the antichrist is going to look like a True Christian.

Now we know from scripture that this is not true, and can't be. When I read how Jesus handled the Jews (who claimed to be followers of God in John 8:13-59 as I posted in post 76) what did Jesus tell them? He told them that they were from there father the devil in verse 44, and not from there Father who Abraham followed who was God. Well some say on here that these Jews were not Christians. Well....that's right. They were not. But, we are reading a Bible which already gives us the answer to the question. So we can read and see that they were not Christians, no matter what they said or claimed. But back in the day when Jesus confronted these Jews, they were the leaders of the synagogues and temples. They were the Religious leaders of that time. The people of that time did not have a book telling them the story of these leaders like we do. Just like now....we don't have a book telling us who is a True Christian, and who is a False Christian. All we have is scripture that Jesus provided that tells us what a True Christian is. We find that in Matthew 16: 24-26, where Jesus tells us this,

"24. If any man desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 25. For whoever desires to save his life shall lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26. For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?

That is what a True Christian is. Anything else would be False. In order to do what Jesus tells us to do in those verses we need to be Born of the Spirit, just like Jesus explains in John 3:5-6:

"5. Most assuredly, I say unto you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God. 6. That which i born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of Spirit is spirit. 7. Do not marvel that I said to you, You must be born again.


Without doing that you can't be a True Christian. Then what the problem starts, everyone is Born Again. Well if you were, you would be carrying the gifts of the Spirit which we find in Galatians 5:22-23:

"love, joy, peace, long suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance:"

Well then the problem becomes that folks find out that they really lack in a lot of those area's....so instead of working on it, they go and find Scripture that says we are saved by Grace through Faith, and that it is no work of our own. Well..they are right. We are saved by Grace through Faith. But the Grace is from Jesus, and the Faith is the Faith that one has in Jesus. Those are the things which get lost in the shuffle. One can't have Faith in Jesus without first becoming Born Again. And if one can't have True Faith in Jesus without becoming Born Again, where did they get the Grace from? Because I find a scripture in 1st John 4:6-11, that tells me this:

"6. We are of God, He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. 7. Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8. He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9. In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. 10. In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11. Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another."

For the life of me I can't figure out how a True Christian can be Born Again from the Spirit of God, and not carry the fruit of the Spirit in them. This makes no sense to me what so ever. But folks call themselves Born Again Believers, and Christians, and we believe them by pleading the fifth and saying. Well....we are saved by Grace, through Faith. It is no work of our own. PRAISE THE LORD.

No.......according to scripture and what Jesus says, one cannot get saved if they are not Born Again, and one cannot be Born Again with True Faith In Jesus Christ Our Lord, so how can one receive Grace to begin with.

As far as works goes.....it takes a lot of work to fight off the temptations from satan, and his demons everyday. God gets all the Glory for the work that needs to be done, to be victorious everyday, but it takes a lot of work from my Faith in my Lord to achieve those victories. So if one claims that they are not working hard each and everyday with their Faith, to strive and walk out those fruits of the Spirit that we are suppose to be carrying, well then one needs to check there Faith at the door.

It is for these reasons that we have what we have today in our Churches, and in our world. We have too many Indians......and not enough of Chiefs who will actually stand up for what God says.

God Bless,

Dave

Ascender
Dec 30th 2008, 09:36 PM
Let us not foget what Jesus said concering the fruit and the vine;

Jn 15:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Jn 15:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

Jn 15:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Jn 15:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

Not everyone that claims to be a Christian abides in Christ.

Firstfruits

You left one out; 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Here is the cusp -- in the vine = in Christ --> does that equal Christian or not? If it means Christian then we are to dwell/abide/remain in Him. If we do not then bad things happen. If it does not mean Christian, how is a sinner to dwell/abide/remain in Christ?

reformedct
Dec 30th 2008, 09:38 PM
"""2 Pet 3:16-17
16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17 Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. (NIV)

Matt 24:4-14
4 Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you.
5 For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.
6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.
7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.
8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.
9 "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.
10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,
11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.
12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,
13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. (NIV)


Luke 8:11-15
11 "This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God.
12 Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.
13 Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.
14 The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life's worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature.
15 But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop. (NIV)


John 15:1-14
1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.
2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.
3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.
4 Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you.
8 This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
9 "As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love.
10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.
11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete.
12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.
13 Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.
14 You are my friends if you do what I command. (NIV)

Col 1:21-23
21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.
22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation--
23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant. (NIV)


Col 2:18-19
18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions.
19 He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.
(NIV)

1 Tim 1:3-7
3 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer
4 nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work-- which is by faith.
5 The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.
6 Some have wandered away from these and turned to meaningless talk.
7 They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm. (NIV)

1 Tim 1:18-20
18 Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight,
19 holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith.
20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme. (NIV)

1 Tim 4:1-16
1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.


1 Tim 5:11-15
11 As for younger widows, do not put them on such a list. For when their sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ, they want to marry.
12 Thus they bring judgment on themselves, because they have broken their first pledge.
13 Besides, they get into the habit of being idle and going about from house to house. And not only do they become idlers, but also gossips and busybodies, saying things they ought not to.
14 So I counsel younger widows to marry, to have children, to manage their homes and to give the enemy no opportunity for slander.
15 Some have in fact already turned away to follow Satan. (NIV)

1 Tim 6:17-21
17 Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment.
18 Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share.
19 In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life.
20 Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge,
21 which some have professed and in so doing have wandered from the faith. Grace be with you.
(NIV)

2 Tim 2:11-18
11 Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him, we will also live with him;
12 if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;
13 if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself.
14 Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.
15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.
16 Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly.
17 Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,
18 who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some. (NIV)""""


First off let me apologize because i have not been patient and loving in these last few posts. I also would like to personally apologize to Firstfruits because just because we disagree does not give me a right to be condemning and judgemental.

That being said,

ALL of these scriptures deal with PERSERVERANCE. all those who Perservere are true believers. Those whom He justified He glorified. We have become(past tense) partakers of Christ if we hold firm our assurance till the end. (not hold firm to our conditional assurance)


Eternal life is conditional in the sense that those who perservere are true recepients of eternal life. Those who fall away because they have no root are not true disciples. True disciples give up their lives for the gospel. True disciples have the Spirit of God in them, and God has promised that he would "cause us to walk upright before HIm and be careful to observe His commands"

Those who go out from us were not of us. If they were of us they would have REMAINED.


Its very simple. Those who perservere are truly saved. Those who do not have no root and they are not of us. Those who turn from the faith are not of us. We are not of those who shrink back.

You must read and accept ALL verses, then you willknow the truth. Also, I KNOW it makes a lot of sense that if a person sins the Spirit would leave Him, but thats not what the Bible says. SO even if we think we know something because it makes sense, we must submit to the WOrd of God for the final say. If the Bible does not clearly support our beliefs we must question our beliefs.

Whenever you are interpreting keep this verse in mind:

those whom He justified He glorified. So when you are reading passages about the Spirit being outraged, people falling away, people turning from the faith, in a state of impossible repentance, you must include the understanding that: whoever God justifies, He glorifies. So if someone is not glorified, they were not justified


We must understand that when the letters in the NT were written they were written to CHURCHES. BY churches we are refferring to those who gathered in the name of Christ in Corinthia, Thessolonica, etc. The writers knew that not everyone in that gathering was a true believer. They knew it was possible that three were both wheat And tares gathering together. So when we read the letters we must realize that there are always wheat AND tares that are being spoken of.

reformedct
Dec 30th 2008, 09:42 PM
"""2 Pet 3:16-17
16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17 Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. (NIV)

Matt 24:4-14
4 Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you.
5 For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.
6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.
7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.
8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.
9 "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.
10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,
11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.
12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,
13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. (NIV)


Luke 8:11-15
11 "This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God.
12 Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.
13 Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.
14 The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life's worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature.
15 But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop. (NIV)


John 15:1-14
1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.
2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.
3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.
4 Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you.
8 This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
9 "As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love.
10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.
11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete.
12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.
13 Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.
14 You are my friends if you do what I command. (NIV)

Col 1:21-23
21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.
22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation--
23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant. (NIV)


Col 2:18-19
18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions.
19 He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.
(NIV)

1 Tim 1:3-7
3 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer
4 nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work-- which is by faith.
5 The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.
6 Some have wandered away from these and turned to meaningless talk.
7 They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm. (NIV)

1 Tim 1:18-20
18 Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight,
19 holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith.
20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme. (NIV)

1 Tim 4:1-16
1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.


1 Tim 5:11-15
11 As for younger widows, do not put them on such a list. For when their sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ, they want to marry.
12 Thus they bring judgment on themselves, because they have broken their first pledge.
13 Besides, they get into the habit of being idle and going about from house to house. And not only do they become idlers, but also gossips and busybodies, saying things they ought not to.
14 So I counsel younger widows to marry, to have children, to manage their homes and to give the enemy no opportunity for slander.
15 Some have in fact already turned away to follow Satan. (NIV)

1 Tim 6:17-21
17 Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment.
18 Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share.
19 In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life.
20 Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge,
21 which some have professed and in so doing have wandered from the faith. Grace be with you.
(NIV)

2 Tim 2:11-18
11 Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him, we will also live with him;
12 if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;
13 if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself.
14 Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.
15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.
16 Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly.
17 Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,
18 who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some. (NIV)""""


First off let me apologize because i have not been patient and loving in these last few posts. I also would like to personally apologize to Firstfruits because just because we disagree does not give me a right to be condemning and judgemental.

That being said,

ALL of these scriptures deal with PERSERVERANCE. all those who Perservere are true believers. Those whom He justified He glorified. We have become(past tense) partakers of Christ if we hold firm our assurance till the end. (not hold firm to our conditional assurance)


Eternal life is conditional in the sense that those who perservere are true recepients of eternal life. Those who fall away because they have no root are not true disciples. True disciples give up their lives for the gospel. True disciples have the Spirit of God in them, and God has promised that he would "cause us to walk upright before HIm and be careful to observe His commands"

Those who go out from us were not of us. If they were of us they would have REMAINED.


Its very simple. Those who perservere are truly saved. Those who do not have no root and they are not of us. Those who turn from the faith are not of us. We are not of those who shrink back.

You must read and accept ALL verses, then you willknow the truth. Also, I KNOW it makes a lot of sense that if a person sins the Spirit would leave Him, but thats not what the Bible says. SO even if we think we know something because it makes sense, we must submit to the WOrd of God for the final say. If the Bible does not clearly support our beliefs we must question our beliefs.

Whenever you are interpreting keep this verse in mind:

those whom He justified He glorified. So when you are reading passages about the Spirit being outraged, people falling away, people turning from the faith, in a state of impossible repentance, you must include the understanding that: whoever God justifies, He glorifies. So if someone is not glorified, they were not justified


We must understand that when the letters in the NT were written they were written to CHURCHES. The greek word for church, ecclesia, simply means a gathering. BY churches we are refferring to those who gathered in the name of Christ in Corinthia, Thessolonica, etc. The writers knew that not everyone in that gathering was a true believer. They knew it was possible that there were both wheat And tares gathering together. So when we read the letters we must realize that there are always wheat AND tares that are being spoken of. They knew that some just "believed" in Jesus bu had no root. So when you hear warnings about falling away, you must realize who the audience was that was being spoken too. Believers and false believers. Paul himself knew about these kinds of people. IN Acts there was a magician who believed and was baptised. Then when he saw the power the apostles had with the Holy Spirit, he tried to buy the power of the Holy Spirit from the apostles for his own use. They rebuked him and told him he had no part with them and that his heart was not right before God. When the apostles wrote these letters they knew people like that magician were likely in the audience. Thats why he kept reminding the people about falling away, leaving the faith, being sanctified/set apart for only awhile, etc

BCF
Dec 30th 2008, 09:44 PM
Wheat and Tares grow up alongside each other and the wheat that is improperly discipled in churches that do not practice discipline, thus making no distinction allow the wheat to turn to chaff. IMHO.

So then tell me.....who's fault would you say that it was, that made the Wheat turn bad, so it got thrown out with the chaff?

The Tares that grew up with the Wheat

or

The one who was taking care of the Wheat

God Bless,

Dave

Butch5
Dec 30th 2008, 10:16 PM
True believers who turn away from what? The Holy Spirit? Or the word of God?

Who turn away from Christ.

Butch5
Dec 30th 2008, 10:19 PM
How do we partake of Christ?


In what sense are you referring?

reformedct
Dec 30th 2008, 10:31 PM
Everyone seems to be getting a little off subject.

The question is not can a beleiver turn from the faith
The question is not can a beleiver turn from Christ
The question is not can a believer fall away
(if you are still arguing over these things please realize the question has nothing to do with these)

The question is:


Is there even one verse stating that the Holy Spirit will leave those whom He has sealed, according to the new coventant.


The answer is NO. in fact, there are numerous verses that say just the opposite.

I knew the answer was no when i first started this thread. It was sort of a rhetorical question so that people could search the Scriptures and find out that it never says that. There are a few scriptures such as Hebrews 6 in which you could read that into the verses, but as i said, you must read them into the verses. The verses dont actually say that when you read them

theres really nothing else to talk about imo

Butch5
Dec 30th 2008, 11:00 PM
Well.....yeah....that is what some folks are thinking here. I mean think about it. The antichrist. Who is he going to claim to be? From everything that I gather from scripture, he is going to make himself out to be a Christian. From what I am reading here...on what people are defining as a Christan (a believer) the antichrist is going to look like a True Christian.

Now we know from scripture that this is not true, and can't be. When I read how Jesus handled the Jews (who claimed to be followers of God in John 8:13-59 as I posted in post 76) what did Jesus tell them? He told them that they were from there father the devil in verse 44, and not from there Father who Abraham followed who was God. Well some say on here that these Jews were not Christians. Well....that's right. They were not. But, we are reading a Bible which already gives us the answer to the question. So we can read and see that they were not Christians, no matter what they said or claimed. But back in the day when Jesus confronted these Jews, they were the leaders of the synagogues and temples. They were the Religious leaders of that time. The people of that time did not have a book telling them the story of these leaders like we do. Just like now....we don't have a book telling us who is a True Christian, and who is a False Christian. All we have is scripture that Jesus provided that tells us what a True Christian is. We find that in Matthew 16: 24-26, where Jesus tells us this,

"24. If any man desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 25. For whoever desires to save his life shall lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26. For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?

That is what a True Christian is. Anything else would be False. In order to do what Jesus tells us to do in those verses we need to be Born of the Spirit, just like Jesus explains in John 3:5-6:

"5. Most assuredly, I say unto you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God. 6. That which i born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of Spirit is spirit. 7. Do not marvel that I said to you, You must be born again.


Without doing that you can't be a True Christian. Then what the problem starts, everyone is Born Again. Well if you were, you would be carrying the gifts of the Spirit which we find in Galatians 5:22-23:

"love, joy, peace, long suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance:"

Well then the problem becomes that folks find out that they really lack in a lot of those area's....so instead of working on it, they go and find Scripture that says we are saved by Grace through Faith, and that it is no work of our own. Well..they are right. We are saved by Grace through Faith. But the Grace is from Jesus, and the Faith is the Faith that one has in Jesus. Those are the things which get lost in the shuffle. One can't have Faith in Jesus without first becoming Born Again. And if one can't have True Faith in Jesus without becoming Born Again, where did they get the Grace from? Because I find a scripture in 1st John 4:6-11, that tells me this:

"6. We are of God, He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. 7. Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8. He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9. In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. 10. In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11. Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another."

For the life of me I can't figure out how a True Christian can be Born Again from the Spirit of God, and not carry the fruit of the Spirit in them. This makes no sense to me what so ever. But folks call themselves Born Again Believers, and Christians, and we believe them by pleading the fifth and saying. Well....we are saved by Grace, through Faith. It is no work of our own. PRAISE THE LORD.

No.......according to scripture and what Jesus says, one cannot get saved if they are not Born Again, and one cannot be Born Again with True Faith In Jesus Christ Our Lord, so how can one receive Grace to begin with.

As far as works goes.....it takes a lot of work to fight off the temptations from satan, and his demons everyday. God gets all the Glory for the work that needs to be done, to be victorious everyday, but it takes a lot of work from my Faith in my Lord to achieve those victories. So if one claims that they are not working hard each and everyday with their Faith, to strive and walk out those fruits of the Spirit that we are suppose to be carrying, well then one needs to check there Faith at the door.

It is for these reasons that we have what we have today in our Churches, and in our world. We have too many Indians......and not enough of Chiefs who will actually stand up for what God says.

God Bless,

Dave


Bravo Dave, well said. I agree with about 99.5% of what you said here. I believe as you say, that there are many in churches today that claim to be Christians and are not. However, I do not give them the title, false Christians, I call them unbelievers. Just because they say they believer does not make them a Christian. I am a carpenter, because I hang doors, I install, base, casing, and crown moulding, not because I say I am a carpenter. The reason I do not use the terms believer and true believer is because many use these terms to support doctrines that in my opinion are not Biblical. The believer, true believer idea is used to support OSAS. People will say that Judas was never saved, because he was lost. Well the Scriptures don't tell us if Judas was saved or not. Judas was however chosen as one of the twelve, one of hte elect, and if the elect can be lost then OSAS cannot be true. So, people will say that Judas was not a "true" believer. As I said in the other post, when you asked me about those in the parable of the sower, I believe the were believers, they just did endure to the end. Anyway, enough said, i would like to say again that I enjoyed your post.

BCF
Dec 30th 2008, 11:00 PM
Everyone seems to be getting a little off subject.

The question is not can a beleiver turn from the faith
The question is not can a beleiver turn from Christ
The question is not can a believer fall away
(if you are still arguing over these things please realize the question has nothing to do with these)

The question is:


Is there even one verse stating that the Holy Spirit will leave those whom He has sealed, according to the new coventant.


The answer is NO. in fact, there are numerous verses that say just the opposite.

I knew the answer was no when i first started this thread. It was sort of a rhetorical question so that people could search the Scriptures and find out that it never says that. There are a few scriptures such as Hebrews 6 in which you could read that into the verses, but as i said, you must read them into the verses. The verses dont actually say that when you read them

theres really nothing else to talk about imo

But this is my point my friend......

Who has God sealed?

Who are those people?

How do you know those people?

Just b/c one says that they are.....does not mean that they really are. They need to be providing good fruit from the fruit of the Spirit....in order to be those who are sealed. The road for the sealed as you are saying is very very narrow according to scripture. But we walk around like it is very very wide. And that my friend is not the case at all.

Without knowing the who and the how......you can't become one of the sealed.

God Bless,

Dave

Who

alethos
Dec 30th 2008, 11:02 PM
The question is:

Is there even one verse stating that the Holy Spirit will leave those whom He has sealed, according to the new coventant.

From my understanding of Scripture, the following was spoken not to unbelievers, but rather to believers.

1 Thess 5:19 Quench not the Spirit;

The word "Quench" sbennumi in the Greek, literally means to extinguish.

Firstfruits
Dec 30th 2008, 11:02 PM
Everyone seems to be getting a little off subject.

The question is not can a beleiver turn from the faith
The question is not can a beleiver turn from Christ
The question is not can a believer fall away
(if you are still arguing over these things please realize the question has nothing to do with these)

The question is:


Is there even one verse stating that the Holy Spirit will leave those whom He has sealed, according to the new coventant.


The answer is NO. in fact, there are numerous verses that say just the opposite.

I knew the answer was no when i first started this thread. It was sort of a rhetorical question so that people could search the Scriptures and find out that it never says that. There are a few scriptures such as Hebrews 6 in which you could read that into the verses, but as i said, you must read them into the verses. The verses dont actually say that when you read them

theres really nothing else to talk about imo

But that only applies if they are true Christians as per the question.

Firstfruits

Butch5
Dec 30th 2008, 11:03 PM
Everyone seems to be getting a little off subject.

The question is not can a beleiver turn from the faith
The question is not can a beleiver turn from Christ
The question is not can a believer fall away
(if you are still arguing over these things please realize the question has nothing to do with these)

The question is:


Is there even one verse stating that the Holy Spirit will leave those whom He has sealed, according to the new coventant.


The answer is NO. in fact, there are numerous verses that say just the opposite.

I knew the answer was no when i first started this thread. It was sort of a rhetorical question so that people could search the Scriptures and find out that it never says that. There are a few scriptures such as Hebrews 6 in which you could read that into the verses, but as i said, you must read them into the verses. The verses dont actually say that when you read them

theres really nothing else to talk about imo

And you know what else? There are no verses of Scripture that explicitly state the Spirit will never leave a believer, that also must be read into the Scriptures

alethos
Dec 30th 2008, 11:15 PM
And you know what else? There are no verses of Scripture that explicitly state the Spirit will never leave a believer, that also must be read into the Scriptures

God is not the one who leaves us or forsakes us. But rather, we can leave him or forsake him?

Butch5
Dec 30th 2008, 11:34 PM
God is not the one who leaves us or forsakes us. But rather, we can leave him or forsake him?

I was speaking of the one who turns from God.

Firstfruits
Dec 31st 2008, 08:55 AM
God is not the one who leaves us or forsakes us. But rather, we can leave him or forsake him?

Does that not mean that if we have left or forsaken God or the Spirit that God or the Spirit are not with us?

If I turn away from God because of doubt or lack of faith and go my own way, is God still with me?

Heb 12:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:


Firstfruits

alethos
Dec 31st 2008, 11:37 AM
Does that not mean that if we have left or forsaken God or the Spirit that God or the Spirit are not with us?



I believe that when a person departs from God, the Holy Spirit deaprts from that person. That is why Scripture admonishes believer's not to quench (meaning extinguish) the Holy Spirit (1 Thess. 5:19).

Firstfruits
Dec 31st 2008, 12:58 PM
I believe that when a person departs from God, the Holy Spirit deaprts from that person. That is why Scripture admonishes believer's not to quench (meaning extinguish) the Holy Spirit (1 Thess. 5:19).

Does it matter if there are no scriptures that express that word for word, with the amount of scriptures that imply it?

Firstfruits

alethos
Dec 31st 2008, 01:36 PM
Does it matter if there are no scriptures that express that word for word, with the amount of scriptures that imply it?

Firstfruits

1 Thess 5:19 Quench not the Spirit;

Firstfruits
Dec 31st 2008, 01:52 PM
1 Thess 5:19 Quench not the Spirit;

So quenching the Spirit is the same as putting out the Spirit, meaning that the Spirit is no longer there, would that be right?

Firstfruits

alethos
Dec 31st 2008, 03:42 PM
So quenching the Spirit is the same as putting out the Spirit, meaning that the Spirit is no longer there, would that be right?

Firstfruits

I believe so..................

Firstfruits
Dec 31st 2008, 03:58 PM
I believe so..................

Thanks Alethos

God bless you!

Firstfruits

reformedct
Jan 1st 2009, 05:54 PM
Does that not mean that if we have left or forsaken God or the Spirit that God or the Spirit are not with us?

If I turn away from God because of doubt or lack of faith and go my own way, is God still with me?

Heb 12:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:


Firstfruits


if you turn away and never repent God was never with you in the first place is my understanding of Scripture. If they were of us they would have remained. Gods word says that he will finish his work unto the Day of Christ.

David committed adultery but as far as i kno he never lost the Spirit. He told God "Dont take your Spirit from me", not "please give your Spirit back to me", so just by that example we can see that the Spirit would not automatically leave when someone sins under the old covenant. Under the new covenant Jesus says he will never leave nor forsake us. He said that He came to do His Fathers will and that He should lose none. These verses make me feel safe in the hands of Christ. He is my sheperd and i am just a dumb stumbling sheep. As James says "we all stumble in many ways". It seems that ultimately our salvation is in Gods hands, not ours. Salvation is of the Lord Jonah 2:9

Those whom he justified these he also glorified. Probably one of the strongest verses about this. I think that sentence is pretty plain and clear. I see no room for a conditional security interpretation because of this verse. To me it says God does not justify someone but then not glorify them. I have yet to see someone disagree with this verse but yet then they say you can lose your salvation.

It seems that security is a consistent theme under the new covenant. There are warnings against apostasy and falling away, but then there are also Scriptures declaring that partakers in Christ will remain and perservere and have actually already overcome by the power/grace of God.


The bottom line is that we love Jesus and we believe He is the only God and way to salvation. Wether you believe in security or not we still will all have to make sure we perservere

I think its pretty accurate to say we will always have disagreement in the church over this issue, however lets not forget to love one another.

I think it was Butch that said there were no verses saying the Spirit would not leave. Actually the Spirit is also reffered to as the SPirit of Christ in Romans. Christ Himself said he would never leave us. So there you have it in plain writing Jesus says He will never leave us. So then if the Spirit of Christ leaves us isnt that in violation of Christs word? Also as you know it says we are sealed UNTO the day of redemption. That word sealed is not just a loosey goosey term. In those days, when something was sealed, there was absolutley no opening that seal until it got to its recipient.

The Bible also says He that began a good work will be faithful to complete it. So we see that it is God who has started this thing in us, and hes not going to start and then give up on us because of our stubbornness. Thats why the Bible says he scourges and disciplines every son. How could he scourge those who never sin?

alethos
Jan 1st 2009, 05:58 PM
if you turn away and never repent God was never with you in the first place is my understanding of Scripture. If they were of us they would have remained. Gods word says that he will finish his work unto the Day of Christ.

David committed adultery but as far as i kno he never lost the Spirit. He told God "Dont take your Spirit from me", not "please give your Spirit back to me", so just by that example we can see that the Spirit would not automatically leave when someone sins under the old covenant. Under the new covenant Jesus says he will never leave nor forsake us. He said that He came to do His Fathers will and that He should lose none. These verses make me feel safe in the hands of Christ. He is my sheperd and i am just a dumb stumbling sheep. As James says "we all stumble in many ways". It seems that ultimately our salvation is in Gods hands, not ours. Salvation is of the Lord Jonah 2:9

Those whom he justified these he also glorified. Probably one of the strongest verses about this. I think that sentence is pretty plain and clear. I see no room for a conditional security interpretation because of this verse. To me it says God does not justify someone but then not glorify them. I have yet to see someone disagree with this verse but yet then they say you can lose your salvation.

It seems that security is a consistent theme under the new covenant. There are warnings against apostasy and falling away, but then there are also Scriptures declaring that partakers in Christ will remain and perservere and have actually already overcome by the power/grace of God.


The bottom line is that we love Jesus and we believe He is the only God and way to salvation. Wether you believe in security or not we still will all have to make sure we perservere

I think its pretty accurate to say we will always have disagreement in the church over this issue, however lets not forget to love one another.

I think it was Butch that said there were no verses saying the Spirit would not leave. Actually the Spirit is also reffered to as the SPirit of Christ in Romans. Christ Himself said he would never leave us. So there you have it in plain writing Jesus says He will never leave us. So then if the Spirit of Christ leaves us isnt that in violation of Christs word? Also as you know it says we are sealed UNTO the day of redemption. That word sealed is not just a loosey goosey term. In those days, when something was sealed, there was absolutley no opening that seal until it got to its recipient.

The Bible also says He that began a good work will be faithful to complete it. So we see that it is God who has started this thing in us, and hes not going to start and then give up on us because of our stubbornness. Thats why the Bible says he scourges and disciplines every son. How could he scourge those who never sin?

Question;

Why do we find Paul instructing believers not to quench (meaning to extinguish) the Holy Spirit?

1 Thess 5:19 Quench not the Spirit;

reformedct
Jan 1st 2009, 06:09 PM
Question;

Why do we find Paul instructing believers not to quench (meaning to extinguish) the Holy Spirit?

1 Thess 5:19 Quench not the Spirit;


hows it goin alethos


First off it is my interpretation that Pauls use of the word quenching the Spirit was not to say that the Spirit would leave you, but rather using imagery to make a point. Lets not forget that his letter was to the whole church. The context is that he is talking to the whole church, as you see in the surrounding verses,love one another, do not despise prophecies, etc. When I read that verse in the context of the surrounding verses it seems that Paul is just telling the church not to dampen or extinguish the power/presence/effectiveness of the Holy Spirit.


Another interpretation is considering the very next verse:

Do not quench the Spirit. Do not despise prophecies, but test everything and hold fast to what is good.

So it can also be interpreted that Paul was telling them that quenching the Spirit could be when we don't heed to prophecies or other moves of the Spirit by simply rejecting supernatural things. By not allowing or giving respect to prophecies and testing the spirits we would in that way be quenching the Spirit's movement/influence.

God Bless

RogerW
Jan 1st 2009, 06:21 PM
hows it goin alethos

First off it is my interpretation that Pauls use of the word quenching the Spirit was not to say that the Spirit would leave you, but rather using imagery to make a point. Lets not forget that his letter was to the whole church. The context is that he is talking to the whole church, as you see in the surrounding verses,love one another, do not despise prophecies, etc. When I read that verse in the context of the surrounding verses it seems that Paul is just telling the church not to dampen or extinguish the power/presence/effectiveness of the Holy Spirit.

Another interpretation is considering the very next verse:

Do not quench the Spirit. Do not despise prophecies, but test everything and hold fast to what is good.

So it can also be interpreted that Paul was telling them that quenching the Spirit could be when we don't heed to prophecies or other moves of the Spirit by simply rejecting supernatural things. By not allowing or giving respect to prophecies and testing the spirits we would in that way be quenching the Spirit's movement/influence.

God Bless

Exactly Reformed, and we have a warning from the Revelation, written by John warning us that the candlestick or the True Light of illumination can be removed from churches who have left their first love.

Re 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Love is a fruit of the Spirit living in us (Ga 5:22). If we have left our first love, it means we are not yielding to the Spirit, therefore quenching the fruit of love the Spirit has given us.

Removing the light of the Spirit does not equate to losing the Spirit, because those who "hear" what the Spirit says will overcome and be given to eat of the tree of life.

Re 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Many Blessings,
RW

Firstfruits
Jan 1st 2009, 07:26 PM
if you turn away and never repent God was never with you in the first place is my understanding of Scripture. If they were of us they would have remained. Gods word says that he will finish his work unto the Day of Christ.

David committed adultery but as far as i kno he never lost the Spirit. He told God "Dont take your Spirit from me", not "please give your Spirit back to me", so just by that example we can see that the Spirit would not automatically leave when someone sins under the old covenant. Under the new covenant Jesus says he will never leave nor forsake us. He said that He came to do His Fathers will and that He should lose none. These verses make me feel safe in the hands of Christ. He is my sheperd and i am just a dumb stumbling sheep. As James says "we all stumble in many ways". It seems that ultimately our salvation is in Gods hands, not ours. Salvation is of the Lord Jonah 2:9

Those whom he justified these he also glorified. Probably one of the strongest verses about this. I think that sentence is pretty plain and clear. I see no room for a conditional security interpretation because of this verse. To me it says God does not justify someone but then not glorify them. I have yet to see someone disagree with this verse but yet then they say you can lose your salvation.

It seems that security is a consistent theme under the new covenant. There are warnings against apostasy and falling away, but then there are also Scriptures declaring that partakers in Christ will remain and perservere and have actually already overcome by the power/grace of God.


The bottom line is that we love Jesus and we believe He is the only God and way to salvation. Wether you believe in security or not we still will all have to make sure we perservere

I think its pretty accurate to say we will always have disagreement in the church over this issue, however lets not forget to love one another.

I think it was Butch that said there were no verses saying the Spirit would not leave. Actually the Spirit is also reffered to as the SPirit of Christ in Romans. Christ Himself said he would never leave us. So there you have it in plain writing Jesus says He will never leave us. So then if the Spirit of Christ leaves us isnt that in violation of Christs word? Also as you know it says we are sealed UNTO the day of redemption. That word sealed is not just a loosey goosey term. In those days, when something was sealed, there was absolutley no opening that seal until it got to its recipient.

The Bible also says He that began a good work will be faithful to complete it. So we see that it is God who has started this thing in us, and hes not going to start and then give up on us because of our stubbornness. Thats why the Bible says he scourges and disciplines every son. How could he scourge those who never sin?

We know that God will never forsake or leave us, but is that still the same if we leave or forsake God and we stand before him at the end of time and we are rewarded for our works?

Firstfruits

Partaker of Christ
Jan 1st 2009, 07:54 PM
hows it goin alethos


First off it is my interpretation that Pauls use of the word quenching the Spirit was not to say that the Spirit would leave you, but rather using imagery to make a point. Lets not forget that his letter was to the whole church. The context is that he is talking to the whole church, as you see in the surrounding verses,love one another, do not despise prophecies, etc. When I read that verse in the context of the surrounding verses it seems that Paul is just telling the church not to dampen or extinguish the power/presence/effectiveness of the Holy Spirit.


Another interpretation is considering the very next verse:

Do not quench the Spirit. Do not despise prophecies, but test everything and hold fast to what is good.

So it can also be interpreted that Paul was telling them that quenching the Spirit could be when we don't heed to prophecies or other moves of the Spirit by simply rejecting supernatural things. By not allowing or giving respect to prophecies and testing the spirits we would in that way be quenching the Spirit's movement/influence.

God Bless

Hi reformedct!

That is also my take on this!

It is an exhortation of how they should conduct themselves.

reformedct
Jan 1st 2009, 08:09 PM
We know that God will never forsake or leave us, but is that still the same if we leave or forsake God and we stand before him at the end of time and we are rewarded for our works?

Firstfruits


thank you for your response

here is what i have come to believe through the Scriptures

A true born again believer WILL NOT turn his back on God permanently. He may go through a season of doubt and questioning, but the true believer will always repent and come back home


So you must understand when you ask me questions about turning your back on God, i see it that those who leave the faith leave because they are not of us. if they were of us they would remain.

Anyone who turns there back on God permanently will experience wrath and hell for all eternity

The issue of works judgement is what i do need to look more into. However we know that the thief on the cross had no good works but to confess Christ as Lord. If he was able to go to Paradise because of that, then i am not so worried about works. I know that God will work in me to will and to do his good pleasure. Works will come and have already been in my life because of God


my understanding of salvation is that it is more than just having faith

the three most popular phases are:
justification
sanctification
glorification

God helps us through all these stages. Those whom he justified, these He also glorified.

Sanctification is our life after being justified in which we grow more and more like Christ. I believe it is during this time when we do "the works that were prepared for us beforehand that we might WALK in them." The Bible says God already has prepared good things for us to do. We simply are called to walk in whatever that may be

If someone is not experiencing any form of sanctification they are most likely not saved (it may be possible that they are growing slowly, as can be the case for brand new believers, the race is not given to the swift)


So when i hear people talk about works, or leaving God, it is my understanding through Scripture that partakers of Christ stand firm to the end, and God works in them to will and to do according to His pleasure. So in my mind every true believer will have these things in their life. When I hear of people who leave God and do not have works i do not consider those people to be saved. You will know them by their fruit

alethos
Jan 1st 2009, 11:31 PM
hows it goin alethos


First off it is my interpretation that Pauls use of the word quenching the Spirit was not to say that the Spirit would leave you, but rather using imagery to make a point. Lets not forget that his letter was to the whole church. The context is that he is talking to the whole church, as you see in the surrounding verses,love one another, do not despise prophecies, etc. When I read that verse in the context of the surrounding verses it seems that Paul is just telling the church not to dampen or extinguish the power/presence/effectiveness of the Holy Spirit.


Another interpretation is considering the very next verse:

Do not quench the Spirit. Do not despise prophecies, but test everything and hold fast to what is good.

So it can also be interpreted that Paul was telling them that quenching the Spirit could be when we don't heed to prophecies or other moves of the Spirit by simply rejecting supernatural things. By not allowing or giving respect to prophecies and testing the spirits we would in that way be quenching the Spirit's movement/influence.

God Bless

The word quench means to extinguish. If I extinguish a fire it goes out. In the same way if I extinguish the Holy Spirit His fire which He began in me goes out. In other words I no longer have that fire. Fire being a metaphor for the Holy Spirit.

reformedct
Jan 1st 2009, 11:50 PM
The word quench means to extinguish. If I extinguish a fire it goes out. In the same way if I extinguish the Holy Spirit His fire which He began in me goes out. In other words I no longer have that fire. Fire being a metaphor for the Holy Spirit.

yes, i understand that extinguish means to put out. However the Bible sometimes uses words to make a point not necissarily to establish a doctrine. For example Jesus says pluck your eye out if it causes you to sin. Yes he literally said pluck it out, but we know he was making a point and not establishing a doctrine of self-mutilation

it is good that you are inquiring and searching to find the true meaning and as you continue i believe God will help you and me to understand all things more clearly

It is possible to not be "on fire" for God and be saved. Sometimes i wake up and i feel like a piece of cardboard lol. I dont feel a strong burning passion all the time. Does that mean i lost the Spirit? not so according to my understanding. However i see where you are coming from also

Firstfruits
Jan 2nd 2009, 09:02 AM
thank you for your response

here is what i have come to believe through the Scriptures

A true born again believer WILL NOT turn his back on God permanently. He may go through a season of doubt and questioning, but the true believer will always repent and come back home


So you must understand when you ask me questions about turning your back on God, i see it that those who leave the faith leave because they are not of us. if they were of us they would remain.

Anyone who turns there back on God permanently will experience wrath and hell for all eternity

The issue of works judgement is what i do need to look more into. However we know that the thief on the cross had no good works but to confess Christ as Lord. If he was able to go to Paradise because of that, then i am not so worried about works. I know that God will work in me to will and to do his good pleasure. Works will come and have already been in my life because of God


my understanding of salvation is that it is more than just having faith

the three most popular phases are:
justification
sanctification
glorification

God helps us through all these stages. Those whom he justified, these He also glorified.

Sanctification is our life after being justified in which we grow more and more like Christ. I believe it is during this time when we do "the works that were prepared for us beforehand that we might WALK in them." The Bible says God already has prepared good things for us to do. We simply are called to walk in whatever that may be

If someone is not experiencing any form of sanctification they are most likely not saved (it may be possible that they are growing slowly, as can be the case for brand new believers, the race is not given to the swift)


So when i hear people talk about works, or leaving God, it is my understanding through Scripture that partakers of Christ stand firm to the end, and God works in them to will and to do according to His pleasure. So in my mind every true believer will have these things in their life. When I hear of people who leave God and do not have works i do not consider those people to be saved. You will know them by their fruit

Can they turn away from God if they were never following God in the first place?

How can they return to where they never were?

Heb 12:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

Firstfruits

alethos
Jan 2nd 2009, 01:05 PM
Can they turn away from God if they were never following God in the first place?

How can they return to where they never were?

Heb 12:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

Firstfruits

A similar question would be can someone who never was in the faith depart from a faith he never had?
1 Tim 4:1 But the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith

Firstfruits
Jan 2nd 2009, 01:22 PM
A similar question would be can someone who never was in the faith depart from a faith he never had?
1 Tim 4:1 But the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith

We also have the following;

2 Tim 4:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=55&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2 Tim 4:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=55&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

reformedct
Jan 2nd 2009, 03:47 PM
A similar question would be can someone who never was in the faith depart from a faith he never had?
1 Tim 4:1 But the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith


well, it is my understanding that it is possible to have what is called "belief with no root"

Jesus talks about people who hear the word with joy but then fall away in times of persecution. Why did they fall away? Because they had no root. They believed but not from the core, not from the root. It is my interpretation that the root is the heart.

So yes, it is possible to have "faith" in Christ (knowledge of Christ, mental assent to Christ), even be joyful about the good news, and live among the covenant community/church and then turn away from CHrist and the church community because that faith had no root.

so yes people will fall away, depart from the faith, and turn from God. WHen they do so, it is because they have no root. They had a form of godliness but there was no power. Its one thing to be turned toward God. It is another thing to be connected in union with God

so as i said before, i am not saying people dont turn from God or fall away, etc. Im saying as the Bible seems to say those who leave the faith have no root and they are not of us, if they were they would have remained.


In my mind and in Scripture there seems to be 3 kinds of people

1.UNbelievers who plainly reject the gospel

2."Believers" who hold to the gospel as long as they dont have to be persecuted for it (these have no root, they are not dedicated from the heart, just for as long as their life is going good) These head knowledge believers who sit in church and are enlightened and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit and tasted the power of the age to come are not true disciples at all. They are not true believers. They are people who assent to the gospel as long as that means they will live easy and good. They have no root. Because they have no root they never produce fruit. They want to partake in all the blessings of God without being dedicated to Him. ON the surface they profess Christ and even volunteer in the church, maybe even do some formal ministry among Gods people, but God sees their hearts and knows they are not His.

3.Then there are the true believers who perservere even unto death

alethos
Jan 2nd 2009, 04:31 PM
well, it is my understanding that it is possible to have what is called "belief with no root"



No new Christian has root. That doesn't mean they aren't Christian. Roots take time.

BCF
Jan 2nd 2009, 06:28 PM
No new Christian has root. That doesn't mean they aren't Christian. Roots take time.

Yeah well, I don't buy that walking progress theory either that people claim that they need after they become a Christian either. This is a theory that is taught all over the world, but yet I can't find one thread of scripture to back that up.

Yeah, we need to walk out our salvation, just like Paul states. But in order for one to have salvation, one needs to be saved in the first place.

Those are just my thought though,

God Bless,

Dave

alethos
Jan 2nd 2009, 06:43 PM
in order for one to have salvation, one needs to be saved in the first place.



That much is obvious to everyone.

Thanks

God bless

BCF
Jan 2nd 2009, 07:42 PM
That much is obvious to everyone.

Thanks

God bless

It may be obvious....but it is something that is taken for granted and out of context by most of the world today.

I know there are folks who don't believe me, and may think that I am off of my rocker...but the time is coming quickly. Folks will soon find out if they were a sheep or a goat. Folks are going to be surprised as to who is not, what they say they are.

God Bless,

Dave

alethos
Jan 2nd 2009, 07:47 PM
It may be obvious....but it is something that is taken for granted and out of context by most of the world today.

I know there are folks who don't believe me, and may think that I am off of my rocker...but the time is coming quickly. Folks will soon find out if they were a sheep or a goat. Folks are going to be surprised as to who is not, what they say they are.

God Bless,

Dave

I agree that not everyone who says thier saved, actually is saved.
Many who aren't saved believe they are saved.
Thats why Scripture says:

Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith. Examine yourselves. Or do you not recognize for yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you?--unless you fail the test. (2 Cor 13:5)

Partaker of Christ
Jan 2nd 2009, 08:50 PM
The word quench means to extinguish. If I extinguish a fire it goes out. In the same way if I extinguish the Holy Spirit His fire which He began in me goes out. In other words I no longer have that fire. Fire being a metaphor for the Holy Spirit.

Having the Spirit in you, and having the Spirit with you.
"For He will be with you, and shall be in you"

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

In you to produce the fruit (Christ likeness)
With you to empower you, and lead you.

How many church meetings have seen or attended, that has quenched the Spirit. How many works and programmes of the churches, have gone in a direction other then the Spirit's direction. How many pastors and elders have been elected to lead the church, and have not been called by the Spirit.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Gal 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Isa 42:2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
Isa 42:3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
Isa 42:4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.
Isa 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

Partaker of Christ
Jan 2nd 2009, 09:16 PM
A similar question would be can someone who never was in the faith depart from a faith he never had?
1 Tim 4:1 But the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith

It does not say, some will depart from having a faith?

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

John 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

John 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
John 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

If the Lord says, that His sheep will not follow a stranger, then how do you work out, that those who depart from the faith are His sheep?

alethos
Jan 2nd 2009, 10:53 PM
It does not say, some will depart from having a faith?

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

John 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

John 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
John 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

If the Lord says, that His sheep will not follow a stranger, then how do you work out, that those who depart from the faith are His sheep?

Nevermind the 1 Tim verse for the moment. Lets go to the book you quoted most of your verse from. The gospel of John

John 15:6 If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown aside like a branch and he withers. They gather them, throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

alethos
Jan 2nd 2009, 10:55 PM
Having the Spirit in you, and having the Spirit with you.


And your counter-point is?

reformedct
Jan 3rd 2009, 03:47 AM
No new Christian has root. That doesn't mean they aren't Christian. Roots take time.

i think this is where we would fundamentally disagree. It is my understanding that the root goes down before the plant can grow up right? im not sure how a plant can grow with no root? does the plant come before the root and then grow roots?

alethos
Jan 3rd 2009, 03:24 PM
i think this is where we would fundamentally disagree. It is my understanding that the root goes down before the plant can grow up right? im not sure how a plant can grow with no root? does the plant come before the root and then grow roots?

True, but it takes time for the roots to go down deep enough to be able to stand up under adverse winds and weather the storms. Some roots are so shallow that when the first gale of wind comes the tree gets uprooted.

Firstfruits
Jan 3rd 2009, 03:45 PM
True, but it takes time for the roots to go down deep enough to be able to stand up under adverse winds and weather the storms. Some roots are so shallow that when the first gale of wind comes the tree gets uprooted.

How does that apply if our faith is like a mustard seed?

Mt 17:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

Mk 4:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth:

Lk 13:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) It is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and cast into his garden; and it grew, and waxed a great tree; and the fowls of the air lodged in the branches of it.

Lk 17:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey

Does it therefore not depend on whether or not we believe?

Firstfruits

alethos
Jan 3rd 2009, 03:57 PM
How does that apply if our faith is like a mustard seed?

First of all it is a horticulural fact that the roots of young trees are shallow, and don't run deep.

Secondly the verse you posted says the same. It takes time to grow, that includes the roots


It is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and cast into his garden; and it grew, and waxed a great tree; and the fowls of the air lodged in the branches of it.



Let me close with a verse with a few short comments included.

Luke 8:13 And those on the rock are they who, when they have heard, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

"fall" in the above verse is the greek word aphistemi, which means to depart, or apostatize from ones once held profession of faith.
In the above verse notice:
1. they hear the word
2. they receive the word with joy
3. But they have no root (this I believe refers merely to the shallowness of their faith, or lack of depth)
4. They believe for awhile (and those who believe are saved as lond as they continue in belief).
5. Then FALL away (they don’t endure to the end)
6. For a time they were believers who became apostates

Firstfruits
Jan 3rd 2009, 04:10 PM
First of all it is a horticulural fact that the roots of young trees are shallow, and don't run deep.

Secondly the verse you posted says the same. It takes time to grow, that includes the roots



Let me close with a verse with a few short comments included.

Luke 8:13 And those on the rock are they who, when they have heard, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

"fall" in the above verse is the greek word aphistemi, which means to depart, or apostatize from ones once held profession of faith.
In the above verse notice:
1. they hear the word
2. they receive the word with joy
3. But they have no root (this I believe refers merely to the shallowness of their faith, or lack of depth)
4. They believe for awhile (and those who believe are saved as lond as they continue in belief).
5. Then FALL away (they don’t endure to the end)
6. For a time they were believers who became apostates

It said that even if your faith was as a mustard seed you can move mountains.

Secondly, as I said before it depends on whether or not the believe.

We are told that we should believe without doubting or else we wont receive what we hope for.

Firstfruits

BCF
Jan 3rd 2009, 04:13 PM
Luke 8:13 And those on the rock are they who, when they have heard, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

"fall" in the above verse is the greek word aphistemi, which means to depart, or apostatize from ones once held profession of faith.
In the above verse notice:
1. they hear the word
2. they receive the word with joy
3. But they have no root (this I believe refers merely to the shallowness of their faith, or lack of depth)
4. They believe for awhile (and those who believe are saved as lond as they continue in belief).
5. Then FALL away (they don’t endure to the end)
6. For a time they were believers who became apostates

Hers a question???? Where in scripture do you find that these kind of people were believers or Christians to begin with?

God Bless,

Dave

BCF
Jan 3rd 2009, 04:16 PM
It said that even if your faith was as a mustard seed you can move mountains.

Secondly, as I said before it depends on whether or not the believe.

We are told that we should believe without doubting or else we wont receive what we hope for.

Firstfruits

My friend.....in order for ones Faith to move mountains, you must first have STRONG FAITH in our LORD JESUS.

You can't have half baked faith and expect God to move mountians for you.

Yukerboy
Jan 3rd 2009, 04:28 PM
Hers a question???? Where in scripture do you find that these kind of people were believers or Christians to begin with?

God Bless,

Dave

Luke 8:13 states they believed for a while and then fell away.

So, yes, they believed, but were they Christians?

Just because one believes does not mean they are born again, for we know that those who are born again have everlasting life and cannot fall away. Thus, it is neither OSAS or NOSAS, but POTS. The born again will persevere, though not all who believe will persevere.

BCF
Jan 3rd 2009, 04:40 PM
Luke 8:13 states they believed for a while and then fell away.

So, yes, they believed, but were they Christians?

Just because one believes does not mean they are born again, for we know that those who are born again have everlasting life and cannot fall away. Thus, it is neither OSAS or NOSAS, but POTS. The born again will persevere, though not all who believe will persevere.


Well I believed that I was spider man as a Kid......but I was never able to climb any walls. Did that make me spider man? NO. Did it make me someone who could persevere? No.....I could not climb walls. So what did it make me? A figment of my imagination. That is what it made me.

Show me where it says in scripture that our imagination will give us Faith and get us saved and born again?

Yukerboy
Jan 3rd 2009, 04:54 PM
Well I believed that I was spider man as a Kid......but I was never able to climb any walls. Did that make me spider man? NO. Did it make me someone who could persevere? No.....I could not climb walls. So what did it make me? A figment of my imagination. That is what it made me.

Show me where it says in scripture that our imagination will give us Faith and get us saved and born again?

It says nothing about faith in the one who believes and then falls away. That was my point. The person who believed thought they were saved, but was not born again, thus they were never known by Christ.

If you are comparing your belief in being spiderman to one who believes in Christ for a while, then I agree with you completely.

BCF
Jan 3rd 2009, 05:07 PM
It says nothing about faith in the one who believes and then falls away. That was my point. The person who believed thought they were saved, but was not born again, thus they were never known by Christ.

If you are comparing your belief in being spiderman to one who believes in Christ for a while, then I agree with you completely.


How does one have Faith for a While? The Scripture tells me that either you do......or you don't. Where do we come up with this believers for a while stuff? There is no such thing in the scripture. We make it sound like there is......but there is not.

Either I was spider man when I was a kid......or I was not spider man as a kid.

In the same reasoning. One is either a Christian......or one is not a Christian.

There is no in between Christian anywhere in scripture.

There is in Mind......but not in Spirit.

God Bless,

Dave

Yukerboy
Jan 3rd 2009, 05:26 PM
How does one have Faith for a While? The Scripture tells me that either you do......or you don't. Where do we come up with this believers for a while stuff? There is no such thing in the scripture. We make it sound like there is......but there is not.

Either I was spider man when I was a kid......or I was not spider man as a kid.

In the same reasoning. One is either a Christian......or one is not a Christian.

There is no in between Christian anywhere in scripture.

There is in Mind......but not in Spirit.

God Bless,

Dave

I think you are misunderstanding me.

Christ says that a person who believes for a while, but then falls away.

I define a believer as one who believes, not that they had saving faith.

However, I do not define a believer as a Christian.
I do not define a believer as one who is born again.
Just because they did believe for a time does not mean they were born again.

All of those who are born again believe, but not all those who believe are born again.

reformedct
Jan 3rd 2009, 05:38 PM
If everyone who "believes" is a Christian

Adolph Hitler "believed" he was a Christian. So do we say that he was truly born again? heck no lol

R Kelly "believes" he is a Christian

then we must say that the majority of the Earths population are all Christians as the statistics show. Paul Washer said something interesting in a sermon. AFter his conversion he went door to door throughout his city witnessing, and to his surprise nearly everyone already believed they were a Christian. I also believed i was a Christian in high school while i lived like the devil. There are million of "believers" but it is not enough to simply believe. Ye must be born again

Being saved is just that. Saved. No one is fully saved until they are in heaven. Those who dont make it to heaven where never "saved" in the first place. Salvation includes the whole process, from justification to glorification. Salvation is of the Lord. It is a work of God Himself. The salvation of God is not broken up into different sections which can be abandoned at anytime. The full work from beginning to end is salvation

Being saved is an eternal deal. You are saved froever. WHoever does not persevere was never "saved". To be saved is to be saved. If you dont end up saved in heaven you never were saved

The Lord knows whose are His


i dont think it is too far of a stretch to say that not everyone who believes they are Christians are actually born again. Just look at some of the people in your workplace who claim to be Christian yet live just like the world? We always say they are false Christians, but then when the Bible says about people who believe and fall away because of no root, we say that it is impossible that they were false Christians?

BCF
Jan 3rd 2009, 05:59 PM
I define a believer as one who believes, not that they had saving faith.

However, I do not define a believer as a Christian.
I do not define a believer as one who is born again.
Just because they did believe for a time does not mean they were born again.

All of those who are born again believe, but not all those who believe are born again.

No...... I understand you perfectly. Here.....let's see if you can answer this one for me. I asked this question in one of my earlier post to the OP. He never answered me back.

Here you say this:

I define a believer as one who believes, not that they had saving faith.

Who is it that you believe.... these people in your quote, are ones who believe....but don't have saving Faith?

Who are these people who you are calling a believer?

Who are these people believing in?

If you are saying that they believe in God. Where do you find scripture that says this is so?

One cannot believe in God or anything, unless one believes in ones Heart.

Romans 10:10:

"For with the Heart of man one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

One who is a believer is going to have the Fruit of the Spirit in them....which would be the confession of their Salvation. One cannot be Born of the Spirit and not have the Fruit of the Spirit.

Now....one can believe anything in ones Mind.....But that my friend is not a believer. That is a figment of ones imagination. That is not a believer of anything.....but ones Mind. Ones Mind will not get one into the Kingdom of God. Only ones Heart will my friend.

So......who are these people you are calling believers.....believing in, and what are they believing with?

If it is with there Mind....there Faith is nothing more then a figment of the imagination.....which is not real in the first place.

So how can they be called believers of anything?

God Bless,

Dave

Yukerboy
Jan 3rd 2009, 06:10 PM
Christ said those on the rock had no root. He said they believed for a while, and then fell away. (Luke 8:13)

These are ones that believed in Christ, beyond a shadow of a doubt, but they didn't persevere. By not persevering, they were NEVER born again, but they did believe for a while.

If they didn't believe, then Christ lied.

If they were born again and did not persevere, then Christ lied.

They believed, were not born again, and fell away from that belief, and God is true.

Prophet Daniel
Jan 3rd 2009, 07:36 PM
Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for *he* hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance (irrevocable)

Amen!

Hebrew 6:4 (people use it to say you can lose salvation or Holy Spirit)

This scripture on the other hand means that when you turn away you cannot be born again because you would try to crucify the son of God afresh. In other words: stop in your tracks and return like the lost son and do not try to get "reborn" again.

BCF
Jan 3rd 2009, 07:57 PM
Christ said those on the rock had no root. He said they believed for a while, and then fell away. (Luke 8:13)

These are ones that believed in Christ, beyond a shadow of a doubt, but they didn't persevere. By not persevering, they were NEVER born again, but they did believe for a while.

If they didn't believe, then Christ lied.

If they were born again and did not persevere, then Christ lied.

They believed, were not born again, and fell away from that belief, and God is true.

How does one believe something in their heart for a while?

BCF
Jan 3rd 2009, 08:06 PM
Christ said those on the rock had no root. He said they believed for a while, and then fell away. (Luke 8:13)

These are ones that believed in Christ, beyond a shadow of a doubt, but they didn't persevere. By not persevering, they were NEVER born again, but they did believe for a while.

This statement that you make, would be like a women saying that she might be pregnant....Either she is pregnant or she is not....there is no in between pregnancy.

God Bless,

Dave

Firstfruits
Jan 3rd 2009, 08:51 PM
Christ said those on the rock had no root. He said they believed for a while, and then fell away. (Luke 8:13)

These are ones that believed in Christ, beyond a shadow of a doubt, but they didn't persevere. By not persevering, they were NEVER born again, but they did believe for a while.

If they didn't believe, then Christ lied.

If they were born again and did not persevere, then Christ lied.

They believed, were not born again, and fell away from that belief, and God is true.

If they believed in Christ without doubt, then they obeyed Christs command to believe without doubt. If they then fell away would that mean that their faith turned into doubt maybe because of what was happening around them?

They could not overcome the temptaion.

Firstfruits

BCF
Jan 3rd 2009, 11:18 PM
If they believed in Christ without doubt, then they obeyed Christs command to believe without doubt. If they then fell away would that mean that their faith turned into doubt maybe because of what was happening around them?

They could not overcome the temptaion.

Firstfruits

How can one believe without a doubt in Christ, and not indore the sacrifice of giving ones self to Christ as He demands?

This is what makes no sense with this POTS theory that I cannot grasp.

I mean think about what you are saying here. I do not find in scripture where it says that one can believe with out a doubt in Christ, but not be Born of The Spirit.

Even Nicodemus, who was a Jewish Leader, and believed that Jesus was who he said He was.....needed to be Born of the Spirit. I don't find anywhere in John 3 where Jesus gave any indication to Nicodemus, that he was OK, b/c he believed.

So where is the proof of this POTS talk in scripture?

God Bless,

Dave

Partaker of Christ
Jan 3rd 2009, 11:56 PM
Amen!

Hebrew 6:4 (people use it to say you can lose salvation or Holy Spirit)

This scripture on the other hand means that when you turn away you cannot be born again because you would try to crucify the son of God afresh. In other words: stop in your tracks and return like the lost son and do not try to get "reborn" again.

Hi Daniel!

Hebrews 6:4, In my view means; if a person falls away, he cannot come back and be born from above [again] (more then once). He will be able to come back, but he cannot relay the foundation that has been laid.

The foundation was laid by God, and God alone, so it is a perfect work not made with hands. We can build on the foundation, but we cannot add too, nor take away. What God does is everlasting, Holy, perfect and pure, without sin, so it cannot spoil, rot or fade away.

alethos
Jan 4th 2009, 01:41 AM
Hers a question???? Where in scripture do you find that these kind of people were believers or Christians to begin with?

God Bless,

Dave

Luke 8:13 says they were believers, at least for a while

Luk 8:13 And those on the rock are they who, when they have heard, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

If Scripture says they were believer's then God forbid that I should argue with the Scripture and say they weren't.

alethos
Jan 4th 2009, 01:44 AM
It said that even if your faith was as a mustard seed you can move mountains.

Secondly, as I said before it depends on whether or not the believe.

We are told that we should believe without doubting or else we wont receive what we hope for.

Firstfruits

Luke 8:13 doesn't say they doubted. It says
1. They heard the word
2. Received the word with joy (not with doubt)
3. Believed

Luk 8:13 And those on the rock are they who, when they have heard, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Sounds to me like they had a brief salvation experience.

Yukerboy
Jan 4th 2009, 01:49 AM
This statement that you make, would be like a women saying that she might be pregnant....Either she is pregnant or she is not....there is no in between pregnancy.

God Bless,

Dave

Christ said that whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

believe + baptized = salvation
unbelief = condemnation
belief without baptism = ?

I say the ? = condemnation. Just as one who has faith but no works has a dead faith, one who believes and is not baptized is believing for naught.

You say that anyone who once believed is always saved, which then makes Christ's parable of the seed falling upon the rocky places false.

Only he who perseveres to the end (born again) will be saved.

He who believes? Even the demons believe....and tremble!

jrick
Jan 4th 2009, 01:55 AM
Christ said that whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

believe + baptized = salvation
unbelief = condemnation
belief without baptism = ?

I say the ? = condemnation. Just as one who has faith but no works has a dead faith, one who believes and is not baptized is believing for naught.

You say that anyone who once believed is always saved, which then makes Christ's parable of the seed falling upon the rocky places false.

Only he who perseveres to the end (born again) will be saved.

He who believes? Even the demons believe....and tremble!

And what about the thief on the cross?

Luke 23:39-43
23:39 One of the criminals who was hanged insulted him, saying, “If you are the Christ, save yourself and us!”
23:40 But the other answered, and rebuking him said, “Don’t you even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 23:41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward for our deeds, but this man has done nothing wrong.” 23:42 He said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom.”
23:43 Jesus said to him, “Assuredly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

I kind of doubt if he was baptized.

Yukerboy
Jan 4th 2009, 02:05 AM
No one was born again until Christ was resurrected.

The thief was no different than anyone else who had died under the old covenant.

Now, using today's new covenant standards, if a person is being led to the lethal injection chamber truly believes that Christ is Lord and becomes saved, it is because spirit is born of spirit. He has been baptized with the Holy Spirit, though no water is around.

Thus, water baptism is not a requirement, but as Christ said, baptism is. This baptism is of the Holy Spirit, which gives birth to spirit.

alethos
Jan 4th 2009, 03:16 AM
No one was born again until Christ was resurrected.



I doubt that can found stated anywhere in the Bible

BCF
Jan 4th 2009, 03:33 AM
Luke 8:13 says they were believers, at least for a while

Luk 8:13 And those on the rock are they who, when they have heard, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

If Scripture says they were believer's then God forbid that I should argue with the Scripture and say they weren't.

I'm not asking you to argue with the scripture. All I am telling you and others to do is show me where it says what those people believed in?

Those verses that you and others have been quoting to me....are parables that Jesus said to His disciples. Now.....what is a parable? A parable is a short simple story that is told, which would help assist in one's teaching of something. That being said, as we look at Luke 8:13, what is Jesus saying? Jesus is giving a answer to a Parable that he gave in Luke 8:5-8. Why is Jesus giving this answer? Because in Luke 8:9, His disciples asked Him what the parable meant, that's why.

So you see my friend. Luke 8:13, is part of the answer to the parable in Luke 8:5-8. Now......unless you can show me from the parable in Luke 8:5-8, that Jesus was talking about someone who believed God for a little while, you are going to need to show me in scripture what these people believed in that you are referring to. Because it was not Jesus, and it was not God. Because Luke 8:6 tells me this:

"And some fell upon a rock: and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture"

It withered away because it had no Faith in nothing, not even for a while.

God Bless,

Dave

BCF
Jan 4th 2009, 03:46 AM
Christ said that whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

believe + baptized = salvation
unbelief = condemnation
belief without baptism = ?

I say the ? = condemnation. Just as one who has faith but no works has a dead faith, one who believes and is not baptized is believing for naught.

You say that anyone who once believed is always saved, which then makes Christ's parable of the seed falling upon the rocky places false.

Only he who perseveres to the end (born again) will be saved.

He who believes? Even the demons believe....and tremble!

No....I am not saying that once one is saved they are always saved. I believe the parable of the sower. All I am asking you is what are those people believing in? That is all.

I have given the answer to what Jesus said was a true Christian in this thread in one of my other post. Jesus did not change His mind of what a true follower of Him was, when He gave the parable of the sower, I'm sure.

Those people that Jesus was referring to in that parable were not all followers of Christ. But those with this POTS theory say it is. All I am asking is with this POTS theory of yours.....show me in scripture what these people believed in. It was not Jesus, and it was not God. Because the true meaning of a follower of Christ, was and is not someone who does it for a while. Well.... if they were not following Christ.....who were they following?

That's all I am asking.

God Bless,

Dave

DIZZY
Jan 4th 2009, 03:47 AM
Baptism does not save anyone, it is a witness to others that you believe and have chosen to follow Jesus Christ. Jesus is your Lord and master.

It is the belief and faith in Jesus that saves you, and salvation is a gift from God to all who believe. Those who chose not to believe, well they are condemned to eternal damnation.

John 3:16-18
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

When one believes in Christ they long to be baptised to show the world their faith and their love for the Lord. But as I said baptism doesn't save you, Jesus Christ saves you.

If you believe you are a sinner and you understand there is nothing you can do to gain salvation other than believe in the one God sent, who by name is known as Jesus Christ, if you believe He died on the cross and rose again on the third day and is now seated at God's right hand. Then you shall be saved, it's so simple yet the world makes it hard.

To be saved all you need to do is to believe in the on God sent.

Jesus Christ died so that we can live.

Yukerboy
Jan 4th 2009, 03:50 AM
I doubt that can found stated anywhere in the Bible

Look at 1 Peter 1:3. God gave us a new birth through the resurrection of Christ.

This new birth (born from the spirit) was not possible until the resurrection.

Sure, the thief believed, he had faith as Abraham had faith, but he was never baptized with the Holy Spirit and therefore not born again.

Even the Apostles themselves were not born again until Christ had been raised from the dead.

To be saved, to be born from above, we must confess with our mouth Jesus is Lord AND believe in our heart God raised Him from the dead.

How would that be possible if he were not yet resurrected?

Yukerboy
Jan 4th 2009, 04:02 AM
All I am asking is with this POTS theory of yours.....show me in scripture what these people believed in. It was not Jesus, and it was not God. Because the true meaning of a follower of Christ, was and is not someone who does it for a while. Well.... if they were not following Christ.....who were they following?

That's all I am asking.

God Bless,

Dave

They believed in the Word of God.

The seed is the Word of God (Luke 8:11)
They believed the Word of God for a while (Luke 8:13)
They did not have the water that gives life (Luke 8:6)
They then fell away (Luke 8:13)

Were they true followers? Were they born again?

No! Those who are born again will endure to the end.

BCF
Jan 4th 2009, 04:16 AM
They believed the Word of God for a while (Luke 8:13)


How does one believe in something for a while?


Were they true followers?

No....they were not. Now....sinse they were not true followers of Christ.....what were they followers of?


Were they born again?

No. One cannot be Born Again and not Love God more then they Love themself. If one does....they are not a true follower of Christ.


Those who are born again will endure to the end.

Those who are Born Again will endure to the end Because they are true followers of Christ, just as the scripture says. Not because they labled themselves as POTS.

God Bless,

Dave

Yukerboy
Jan 4th 2009, 04:26 AM
How does one believe in something for a while?

You've never believed something for a while then not believe it?


No....they were not. Now....sinse they were not true followers of Christ.....what were they followers of?

They believed they were followers of Christ but were not.


No. One cannot be Born Again and not Love God more then they Love themself. If one does....they are not a true follower of Christ.

Agreed.



Those who are Born Again will endure to the end Because they are true followers of Christ, just as the scripture says. Not because they labled themselves as POTS.

Agreed again.

BCF
Jan 4th 2009, 04:43 AM
You've never believed something for a while then not believe it?

I believed in something that was not true for a while..... sure. Then wants I found out the truth......I did not believe it anymore. But what does that have to do with what we are talking about?

You are saying that these people were believers in Christ b/c of verse Luke 8:13....and I'm asking you what did they believe in if they were only believing in Christ for a while. Because in scripture a true follower of Christ does not believe for a while.....he believes forever. So these people must have been believing in something other then Christ. What were they believing in?

[QUOTE]They believed they were followers of Christ but were not.

This I can understand, b/c that is what they were doing. They were believing Christ with there Minds and not there Hearts. This does not make them Saved, Born Again, or Christians. Jesus would tell these kinds of people that He never knew them. So that would make them non Christians. Because you can't be a Christian and not be a follower of Our Loving Lord Jesus Christ.

God Bless,

Dave

My heart's Desire
Jan 4th 2009, 04:47 AM
Look at 1 Peter 1:3. God gave us a new birth through the resurrection of Christ.

This new birth (born from the spirit) was not possible until the resurrection.

Sure, the thief believed, he had faith as Abraham had faith, but he was never baptized with the Holy Spirit and therefore not born again.

Even the Apostles themselves were not born again until Christ had been raised from the dead.

To be saved, to be born from above, we must confess with our mouth Jesus is Lord AND believe in our heart God raised Him from the dead.

How would that be possible if he were not yet resurrected?I somewhat believe this also. I'm not sure of the method but I believe some in the O.T. were saved also by the same faith that Abraham had. Abraham's faith was reckoned to him as righteousness by the Lord and that was before the LAW. Though he was saved by faith as we are today, the Lord Jesus had not yet come to earth as a man, Son of man, Son of God and crucified yet scripture describes as the Lamb crucified from the beginning of the World.
In the gospels, Jesus went with His message of being the Messiah to only the Lost house of Israel.
Consider these verses regarding the Holy Spirit.
The Lord told Nicodemus that he must be born again by the Spirit.
John 16:7 tells us that the Spirit does not come until Jesus went away.
But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.
Before that Jesus told the disciples this in John 14:17
that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.
The difference here is that as the Holy Spirit came upon the O.T people, the Holy Spirit was also abiding with the disciples yet, when Jesus goes away the Holy Spirit Whom He sent would also be in them. It didn't happen until after the Lord was resurrected and ascended into heaven and the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost. The Church was born.

Even after that the first few chapters of Acts shows us the disciples still preaching the message that John the Baptist did, repent and be baptized but also showing how Jesus was/is the Messiah that the Nation of Israel was expecting, and that they could be saved by believing in Him. The text shows us that they still mostly went to the house of Israel, you can see that from most of what Peter told people as well as Stephen. That is until God showed Peter that the Gentiles were also to be included in the Church as well.

reformedct
Jan 4th 2009, 04:56 AM
I somewhat believe this also. I'm not sure of the method but I believe some in the O.T. were saved also by the same faith that Abraham had. Abraham's faith was reckoned to him as righteousness by the Lord and that was before the LAW. Though he was saved by faith as we are today, the Lord Jesus had not yet come to earth as a man, Son of man, Son of God and crucified yet scripture describes as the Lamb crucified from the beginning of the World.
In the gospels, Jesus went with His message of being the Messiah to only the Lost house of Israel.
Consider these verses regarding the Holy Spirit.
The Lord told Nicodemus that he must be born again by the Spirit.
John 16:7 tells us that the Spirit does not come until Jesus went away.
But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.
Before that Jesus told the disciples this in John 14:17
that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.
The difference here is that as the Holy Spirit came upon the O.T people, the Holy Spirit was also abiding with the disciples yet, when Jesus goes away the Holy Spirit Whom He sent would also be in them. It didn't happen until after the Lord was resurrected and ascended into heaven and the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost. The Church was born.


i may be wrong but i think the OT saints were born again, but they did not have the indwelling of the SPirit a we have now. The Spirit was active in the world since Genesis, but in one of the Gospels it said something about the Spirit not yet being sent because Christ was not yet glorified. Before Jesus was glorified the SPirit was not indwelling and sealing people in the way that He does now since Christ is glorified.

I may be wrong but that is my interpretation. The BIble says no one seeks God but yet we see people like David definetly had a heart after Gods, because he was born again imo

i may be wrong on this

BCF
Jan 4th 2009, 04:59 AM
I somewhat believe this also. I'm not sure of the method but I believe some in the O.T. were saved also by the same faith that Abraham had. Abraham's faith was reckoned to him as righteousness by the Lord and that was before the LAW. Though he was saved by faith as we are today, the Lord Jesus had not yet come to earth as a man, Son of man, Son of God and crucified yet scripture describes as the Lamb crucified from the beginning of the World.
In the gospels, Jesus went with His message of being the Messiah to only the Lost house of Israel.
Consider these verses regarding the Holy Spirit.
The Lord told Nicodemus that he must be born again by the Spirit.
John 16:7 tells us that the Spirit does not come until Jesus went away.
But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.
Before that Jesus told the disciples this in John 14:17
that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.
The difference here is that as the Holy Spirit came upon the O.T people, the Holy Spirit was also abiding with the disciples yet, when Jesus goes away the Holy Spirit Whom He sent would also be in them. It didn't happen until after the Lord was resurrected and ascended into heaven and the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost. The Church was born.

What you say here is true....but it is no different now (with the Holy Spirit) then it was then (without the Holy Spirit).

In the OT, folks like Abraham, Moses, Jacob, and so on, all the way to Jesus.....had Faith in God.....Himself. In other words they literally spoke to God. Whatever God told them to do.....they did. We on the other hand have the Holy Spirit that has been sent to us by God thru Jesus. Who speaks to us.....and we are to do whatever it tells us to do. Just like it was done with our forefathers of old.

Nothing has changed....God just made things easier for us....that's all.

God Bless,

Dave

alethos
Jan 4th 2009, 10:48 AM
Look at 1 Peter 1:3. God gave us a new birth through the resurrection of Christ.

This new birth (born from the spirit) was not possible until the resurrection.

Sure, the thief believed, he had faith as Abraham had faith, but he was never baptized with the Holy Spirit and therefore not born again.

Even the Apostles themselves were not born again until Christ had been raised from the dead.

To be saved, to be born from above, we must confess with our mouth Jesus is Lord AND believe in our heart God raised Him from the dead.

How would that be possible if he were not yet resurrected?

"I think the apostle has a reference here to his own case, and that of his fellow apostles, at the time that Christ was taken by the Jews and put to death. Previously to this time they had strong confidence that he was the Messiah, and that it was he who should redeem Israel; but when they found that he actually expired upon the cross, and was buried, they appear to have lost all hope of the great things which before they had in prospect. This is feelingly expressed by the two disciples whom our Lord, after his resurrection, overtook on the road going to Emmaus, see Luke 24:13-24. And the hope, that with them, died with their Master, and seemed to be buried in his grave, was restored by the certainty of his resurrection. From Christ’s preaching, miracles, etc., they had a hope of eternal life, and all other blessings promised by him; by his death and burial this hope became nearly, if not altogether, extinct; but by his resurrection the hope was revived. This is very properly expressed here by being begotten again to a living hope"

Secondly, being born again is not produced by any confession we make. Becoming born again, is entirely an act of God apart from anything we do.

"born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husbands will, but born of God." (John 1:13)

From the above verse it becomes clear that being born again comes not through a humans decision. If we posit that faith or our belief is required to be born again, then how would we explain the verse above, which says our decision does not play a part in our being born again? Belief being a decision would also be excluded as a condition for being born again.

alethos
Jan 4th 2009, 10:58 AM
I'm not asking you to argue with the scripture. All I am telling you and others to do is show me where it says what those people believed in?

Those verses that you and others have been quoting to me....are parables that Jesus said to His disciples. Now.....what is a parable? A parable is a short simple story that is told, which would help assist in one's teaching of something. That being said, as we look at Luke 8:13, what is Jesus saying? Jesus is giving a answer to a Parable that he gave in Luke 8:5-8. Why is Jesus giving this answer? Because in Luke 8:9, His disciples asked Him what the parable meant, that's why.

So you see my friend. Luke 8:13, is part of the answer to the parable in Luke 8:5-8. Now......unless you can show me from the parable in Luke 8:5-8, that Jesus was talking about someone who believed God for a little while, you are going to need to show me in scripture what these people believed in that you are referring to. Because it was not Jesus, and it was not God. Because Luke 8:6 tells me this:

"And some fell upon a rock: and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture"

It withered away because it had no Faith in nothing, not even for a while.

God Bless,

Dave

As the verse says, they believed and received the word with joy. The word obviously is the good news of the gospel, which is referred to as the seed. If you want to relate everything in Scripture to parables, which have no spiritual application, then Jesus wasted his time giving the parable if no spiritual application can be deduced from His words.

Luke 8:13 And those on the rock are they who, when they have heard, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

See Matt 13 where Jesus gives a explanation of the same parable.

Firstfruits
Jan 4th 2009, 12:20 PM
Luke 8:13 doesn't say they doubted. It says
1. They heard the word
2. Received the word with joy (not with doubt)
3. Believed

Luk 8:13 And those on the rock are they who, when they have heard, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Sounds to me like they had a brief salvation experience.

Would you say then that salvation is on going, which comes to an end either when we die or Christ returns?

Firstfruits

Truthinlove
Jan 4th 2009, 12:44 PM
however i do see verses like this: John 14:16 "...He will give you another Helper, to be with you FOREVER, even the Spirit of truth, who the world cannot recieve."


because if the Spirit never leaves a true Christian, how can that Christian end up in hell with the Spirit of God inside them???????


many people come and say "you can turn your back on God".


Right, not only could a genuine believer not end up in hell, I'd just add that if one TRULY had the Holy Spirit come into them, meaning they were a genuine, born-again believer, they could NEVER walk away from God, or "give up" their salvation because the Holy Spirit is promised to NEVER leave! So, one who is truly His can not willfully walk away. They can not make the H.S. leave. If they do turn from God, they were never truly His!

Partaker of Christ
Jan 4th 2009, 12:53 PM
Luke 8:13 doesn't say they doubted. It says
1. They heard the word
2. Received the word with joy (not with doubt)
3. Believed

Luk 8:13 And those on the rock are they who, when they have heard, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Sounds to me like they had a brief salvation experience.

Which means they believed not with a good heart. The word did not effect their heart, and so no root. It may have effected their intellectual understanding, and it may have effected their emotions.

Truthinlove
Jan 4th 2009, 01:21 PM
And you know what else? There are no verses of Scripture that explicitly state the Spirit will never leave a believer, that also must be read into the Scriptures

John 14:16-17a "And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, who will never leave you. He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth...."

Seems pretty explicit to me!

Truthinlove
Jan 4th 2009, 01:22 PM
I believe that when a person departs from God, the Holy Spirit deaprts from that person. That is why Scripture admonishes believer's not to quench (meaning extinguish) the Holy Spirit (1 Thess. 5:19).

So what do you do with John 14:16 that states the Holy Spirit will never leave you?

alethos
Jan 4th 2009, 01:36 PM
So what do you do with John 14:16 that states the Holy Spirit will never leave you?

First of all that is not what is contained in John 14:16. Below is what that verse actually says.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever,

The verse doesn't say the Holy Spirit will never leave you.

That he may, not will be with you forever is more accurate according to the wording.

alethos
Jan 4th 2009, 01:38 PM
Which means they believed not with a good heart. The word did not effect their heart, and so no root. It may have effected their intellectual understanding, and it may have effected their emotions.

Since the verse doesn't state that, you must assume or read that into the verse.

alethos
Jan 4th 2009, 01:42 PM
Would you say then that salvation is on going, which comes to an end either when we die or Christ returns?

Firstfruits

Yes

I believe salvation is a life-long process. We will remain saved as long as we continue in the faith.

Acts 14:22 Paul exhorts believers "to continue in the faith" If remaining in the faith was automatic, Paul wouldn't have had to exhort them to continue in it.

Jesus own words agree
John 15:6 If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown aside like a branch and he withers. They gather them, throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

BCF
Jan 4th 2009, 01:55 PM
Which means they believed not with a good heart. The word did not effect their heart, and so no root. It may have effected their intellectual understanding, and it may have effected their emotions.

Amen my friend....that is what I have been saying ever since this thread started:lol:.

It does not matter whether or not one hears the word of God with Joy or they don't understand what they are hearing. If they are listening to Gods word with their minds.....they are no closer to God then the people who don't pay any attention to God and His word at all. The same with those who hear the word and don't understand. They are trying to understand something with there minds. Understanding and receiving the scripture with your mind gets you no where. It is the understanding and receiving of your Heart, which gets you into the Kingdom of God.

Many, many, of Gods children are being destroyed b/c of the lack of knowledge. Not b/c they were not told the Gospel.......but b/c they never received it with there heart......and some leader of the Church told them that they were saved just b/c they said prayer. This is wrong!!!!!!!!It takes work and commitment to be Born Again and follow the Fruits of the Spirit. It takes work to pick up your cross and deny ones self and follow Christ on a daily basis. We war against flesh and Spirit everyday. We are to be walking out our Salvation daily....not just say a sinners prayer one time and we are done.

Yes........Salvation is a free gift from God. But it takes work from us as humans to get that free gift. If I were to give anyone of you a million dollars, and tell you to go and built the house of your dreams. I will pay for everything. But you built it yourself. You do not hire anyone to help you, and you do not get anyone to help you. You built it all by yourself.

Let me ask all of you something. Is it going to take hard work from you in order to built your house, even though your house is free?

The same goes with our Salvation. Jesus gave us a free gift of Salvation when He shed His Blood on that tree. But in order for us to get that free gift one must deny himself and follow Christ. Jesus tells us this very thing in Matthew 16: 24-26 (NKJV):

"24. If any man desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 25. For whoever desires to save his life shall lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26. For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?

One can not become Born Again in Spirit until they are willing to do this, and do this daily by walking out there Salvation daily with there flesh kicking and screaming at them. In 1st Corinthians 6:19-20 Paul writes this:

"19. What? do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20. For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are Gods."

These two verses by Paul, back up everything that I am saying. Yes.......Gods gift of Salvation is free......but we pay a price in walking out that Salvation daily to keep it.

God Bless,

Dave

Partaker of Christ
Jan 4th 2009, 01:59 PM
Since the verse doesn't state that, you must assume or read that into the verse.

But it does say that.

The ground was not good ground, for it either had rocks or thistles and thorns. The seed either took no root, or it was choked.

The good ground, recieved the seed and understood. Jesus said: It will produce much fruit. There are no if's or but's with the good ground, it will produce fruit.

Matt 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

alethos
Jan 4th 2009, 02:25 PM
But it does say that.

The ground was not good ground, for it either had rocks or thistles and thorns. The seed either took no root, or it was choked.



I was referring to
Luke 8:13 And those on the rock are they who, when they have heard, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

That verse doesn't say that. This verse refers to a different group of individuals.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 4th 2009, 03:11 PM
Matt 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

This may be a very poor analogy, but lets try.

Suppose the word was 'Physical exercise is good for building up and strengthening the physical body, and for a longer healthy life'

You may ask many people if they believe this word to be true. Some may say well yes, but I do not need it. I am healthy and in good shape. (by the way side). Others may say yes I believe this is true, but I just don't have the time to exercise. I am way far to busy with this and that. (thorns).
Still others may say yes this is true. I guess I do need to loose a few pounds. I will begin a program for a healthier lifestyle. They begin the program and for a while they feel good, and enjoy the benefits, but after a short while, they start being tempted back to their old lifestyle. The cost of the new lifestyle seem far too much to pay, for the benefits they seem to gain.(rocks)

Then we have the good ground. These are they who see, that they are in such a terrible state of health. They know that if they do not change, they will not have long to live. They cry out "what must I do to be saved" They recieve the word, and they understand. There is no other way. I can reject this and die, or I accept this way and live. This is not about loosing a few pounds, or about looking and feeling better. It is not about finding some extra time, to fit in more to do. It is a whole new way. It is about choosing life or death.

Matt 9:16 No one puts a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old garment, for the patch tears away from the garment, and a worse tear is made.
Matt 9:17 Neither is new wine put into old wineskins. If it is, the skins burst and the wine is spilled and the skins are destroyed. But new wine is put into fresh wineskins, and so both are preserved."

Firstfruits
Jan 4th 2009, 06:27 PM
Yes

I believe salvation is a life-long process. We will remain saved as long as we continue in the faith.

Acts 14:22 Paul exhorts believers "to continue in the faith" If remaining in the faith was automatic, Paul wouldn't have had to exhort them to continue in it.

Jesus own words agree
John 15:6 If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown aside like a branch and he withers. They gather them, throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Thanks Alethos,

God bless!

Firstfruits

My heart's Desire
Jan 4th 2009, 07:40 PM
What you say here is true....but it is no different now (with the Holy Spirit) then it was then (without the Holy Spirit).

In the OT, folks like Abraham, Moses, Jacob, and so on, all the way to Jesus.....had Faith in God.....Himself. In other words they literally spoke to God. Whatever God told them to do.....they did. We on the other hand have the Holy Spirit that has been sent to us by God thru Jesus. Who speaks to us.....and we are to do whatever it tells us to do. Just like it was done with our forefathers of old.

Nothing has changed....God just made things easier for us....that's all.

God Bless,

Dave
Yes, I also believe they literally spoke to God at least until the Prophets when God spoke to them thru prophets.
I believe there is a change though. It appears to me that in the O.T the Spirit came upon people at will and also left them too. Take Saul for example. He prophecied with the prophets, at which time the Spirit of God came upon him. 1 Sam. also tells us that the Spirit of the Lord also departed from Saul when he disobeyed and an evil spirit from the Lord terrorized him.
What I find interesting is that even after that, David constantly honored Saul as being the Lord's anointed.
If the Holy Spirit was already here in the position He had as Helper of the Church then why did Jesus feel the need to say the helper would not come unless Jesus left? Not only was the Spirit to be with them as He had been with Saul, the Spirit was also to be IN them. I believe this was the change.
Some say even today that the Spirit is only with us as He was with Saul for example and not in us and therefore can depart because of disobedience. I believe that He does not. I believe the mission (for want of better word) of the Holy Spirit for the Church is different then the mission in the O.T

appletonbill
Jan 4th 2009, 07:53 PM
For I am CONVINCED that neither death nor life, neither angels or demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to seperate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:37-39, NIV)

reformedct
Jan 4th 2009, 09:11 PM
at the end of the day:

Jesus says the Spirit will be with us forever
The Spirit seals us unto the day of redemption
The Spirit is the gurantee of our inheritance

Jesus says he will never leave us or forsake us
The Spirit is also called the Spirit of Christ

That is enough for me to feel safe in the hand of God forever

i see no verse saying that the Spirit left anyone in the NT

i see grieved, quenched, and outraged, but no leaving

some people think sin negates salvation. to me this doesnt make sense because obedience doesnt result in salvation. We are saved by grace thru faith. We have the righteousness of Christs obedience. So how can the Spirit leave me when i am perfect in the sight of God?

BCF
Jan 4th 2009, 10:01 PM
What I find interesting is that even after that, David constantly honored Saul as being the Lord's anointed.
If the Holy Spirit was already here in the position He had as Helper of the Church then why did Jesus feel the need to say the helper would not come unless Jesus left? Not only was the Spirit to be with them as He had been with Saul, the Spirit was also to be IN them. I believe this was the change.

In the OT, I believe that the Holy Spirit that was in Saul and David and so forth....was the Godhead speaking to them. Which is why I think that Jesus needed to leave before He could send us the Helper (Holy Spirit) in the NT. Jesus being part of the Godhead....would need to leave this earth in a physical before any other part of the Godhead could be sent.

In Colossians 2:8-9, we find Paul writing this:

"8. Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead Bodily."

And this is backed up from what we read in John 1:14, where John writes:

"14. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

From these scriptures it would make sense to me that Jesus, would have been part of the Godhead, and would of needed to return to the Father....in order for the Holy Spirit to be sent to us. Simply b/c Jesus, who is God and the Holy Spirit through the Godhead, could not stay here with us. He needed to ascend so that the helper could descend.

If that makes any sense to you.

God Bless,

Dave

Chimon
Jan 5th 2009, 04:24 AM
It seems you have overlooked a simple point.

Hebrews 3:1 ( KJV ) 1Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

The writer was writing to Christians, Not fake believers in the church, he says the Apostle and High Priest of "our" confession. So Hebrews 6 is speaking of believers.


While it is absolutely true that Hebrews was written to Christians, I think you may have missed the immediate context of verse 6.

"For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt."

This passage is not applied to the recipients of the letter (who are undoubtedly Christians) but "those who have once been enlightened."

John specifically says that those who have left the faith were never actually Christians in 1 John 2:19 "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us."

saved and know it
Jan 5th 2009, 05:21 AM
I opened a thread similar to this but i guess it was too complex so lets keep it simple.

Can a born again(by the spirit not just a "decision") believer lose the Holy Spirit under the New Covenant

if so, provide Scripture

if not, provide Scripture

also when referencing the Spirits actions in the OT make sure you have Scripture as well that shows how that action is seen/done under the New Covenant

Chimon has pretty well laid out the correct answer to your question.

However, I would like to add a couple of thoughts. I find with many believers in Christ that they fail to understand truth concerning the old and new nature. Though the term old nature is not found in the bible yet the principle is there. Let me explain.
When we got saved, God imparted to us a new nature, a divine nature. It came about through the new birth, being born again from above. (John 3:3). At that moment we were sealed by the Holy Spirit of God. Ephesians 1:13 (b) says - in whom also, after that ye believed ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise. Which is the earnest (down payment) of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory.
So once the Holy Spirit enters a believer it will never leave. What a tragic belief that some people believe that one can be saved today and lost tomorrow. God salvation is for certain. Hebrews 6:4-6 and 10:26-29 is directed toward apostates. Remember that the book of Hebrews is to the Hebrew people - the Jewish people. There were those that knew about the Lord Jesus Christ and pretended to believe but in fact they heard the truth, tasted (but did not appropriate to themselves) of God way of salvation but they abruptly turned away from it at the last moment. The writer to the Hebrews is saying - for if we sin wilfully (by turning away from the gospel and rejecting it) after that we have received the knowlege of the truth (there is a difference between having a knowledge and believing with the heart) there remaineth no more sacrifice for sin. IN other words, there is no other way of salvation. Christ death on Calvary is the only sacrifice for sin. Anyway that is another subject.
The point I want to make here is that even though we are saved, we still have the sin principle within us. We were born with it and it will never be eradicated until the Lord comes (the rapture) or we die. What is the sin principle. It is the evil nature that we are born with. It continues to be with us in our christian experience. If you study the book of Romans you would know from chapter 6-8 that the death of Christ has made provision for what we are by nature. Christ not only died for my sins but He died for what I am by birth. A sinner. Without Christ in my life, I can never overcome sin. In my unsaved condition, I am the servant of sin. Read Romans 6, you will see how that when Christ died we died with Him. God reckoned us to have died with Christ. The apostle Paul speaks of the old man, that is the old nature, what I am in Adam. The key word here is reckoned. It is an accounting term. We are to account for the fact that we have died with Christ. In a practical way, I say when faced with sinful thoughts or a sinful act, - I have died with Christ, I cannot and will not yield to this sin. I lift my heart to God and ask for HIs help to overcome. God can do nothing with the old nature, what I am in Adam. He can not improve it, change it, make it turn over a new leaf etc. There is nothing that God can or will do with what I am in Adam. He simply put it to death at Calvary, 2000 yrs ago. I come into the good of that death with Christ when I trusted Christ as my Saviour. The expression in Adam means that I am a descendant of Adam who is the federal head of the human race. I think that we can all understand that, can we not. Romans 5:12 says - As by one man (Adam) sin entered into the world and death by sin; so death is passed upon all men, for that all have sinned. The words - for all have sinned - is not in reference to sins of commission that I have done. It is not the same word (in the original greek) that we have in Romans 3:23. What it means is that we have all (as descendants of Adam) been affected by that one sin that he committed. The sin of disobedience. It is often referred to as the fall of Adam. Adam fell through one act of sin (disobedience). That means that every person since Adam has been born with a sinful nature (sin principle). That is the old nature. So when we speak of being in Adam, you now understand it to mean what I am in Adam in my unsaved condition. As christians we are no longer in Adam but now are in Christ. Now with the new nature imparted to us by God, we overcome the old nature, that sinful nature. The death of Christ on the Cross has broken the power of sin over us. Again, read Romans 6:11-16. I am no longer under the power of sin. I can yield my members (of my body) unto God. In my prior unsaved days I could not do that. I obeyed sinful lusts etc. but now I can choose to obey God and His word. I hope that I am making myself clear on this. If not please let me know and I will try again.
I will not say more as it is midlnight my time and I must work tomorrow.
May the Lord bless and keep you.

Yukerboy
Jan 5th 2009, 06:37 AM
Welcome to the forums, SAKI.

You hit that one out of the park. Very good post.

Firstfruits
Jan 5th 2009, 11:59 AM
Welcome to the forums, SAKI.

You hit that one out of the park. Very good post.

Are we saying that someone that has been known as a believer/Christian has sinned that they were never saved in the first place?

Since becoming a Christian have you ever sinned?

Firstfruits

BCF
Jan 5th 2009, 12:24 PM
Are we saying that someone that has been known as a believer/Christian has sinned that they were never saved in the first place?

Since becoming a Christian have you ever sinned?

Firstfruits

Yeah...that's what they are saying. Although I don't find this theory in scripture, that is what they are saying.

God Bless,

Dave

alethos
Jan 5th 2009, 12:53 PM
at the end of the day:

Jesus says the Spirit will be with us forever
The Spirit seals us unto the day of redemption
The Spirit is the gurantee of our inheritance

Jesus says he will never leave us or forsake us
The Spirit is also called the Spirit of Christ

That is enough for me to feel safe in the hand of God forever

i see no verse saying that the Spirit left anyone in the NT

i see grieved, quenched, and outraged, but no leaving

some people think sin negates salvation. to me this doesnt make sense because obedience doesnt result in salvation. We are saved by grace thru faith. We have the righteousness of Christs obedience. So how can the Spirit leave me when i am perfect in the sight of God?

May I suggest to you that you do an in-depth study of the following theological topics. I believe this would be very benefical for you.

1. Being out of fellowship
2. Backslidding
3. Drifting away from the faith
4. Habitual sin
5. Grieving the Holy Spirit
6. Quenching the Holy Spirit
7. Apostasy

Firstfruits
Jan 5th 2009, 01:30 PM
Yeah...that's what they are saying. Although I don't find this theory in scripture, that is what they are saying.

God Bless,

Dave

If that was then case then there would be no reason for Jesus to have said the following concerning endurance.

Mt 10:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Mt 24:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Note that Jesus did not say is saved but shall be saved (future)

Jn 10:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Acts 2:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

We shall be saved if we believe and endure to the end.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Yukerboy
Jan 5th 2009, 01:30 PM
Are we saying that someone that has been known as a believer/Christian has sinned that they were never saved in the first place?

Since becoming a Christian have you ever sinned?

Firstfruits

I have never sinned after being born again....and neither have you.

It is impossible for those that are dead to sin to sin.



Yeah...that's what they are saying. Although I don't find this theory in scripture, that is what they are saying.

God Bless,

Dave


Whoever has been born of God cannot sin (1 John 3:9)
Everything is permissible, but not everything is profitable (1 Corinthians 6 something)
Sin is transgression of the law (1 John 3:3)
We are no longer under law, but under grace (Paul's epistle to somebody)

Yukerboy
Jan 5th 2009, 01:32 PM
If that was then case then there would be no reason for Jesus to have said the following concerning endurance.

Mt 10:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Mt 24:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Note that Jesus did not say is saved but shall be saved (future)

Jn 10:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Acts 2:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

We shall be saved if we believe and endure to the end.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

And those that endure to the end are the born again. No one who doesn't endure to the end are born again.

Firstfruits
Jan 5th 2009, 01:43 PM
I have never sinned after being born again....and neither have you.

It is impossible for those that are dead to sin to sin.



Whoever has been born of God cannot sin (1 John 3:9)
Everything is permissible, but not everything is profitable (1 Corinthians 6 something)
Sin is transgression of the law (1 John 3:3)
We are no longer under law, but under grace (Paul's epistle to somebody)

For whom does the following scripture apply, saved, unsaved or both?

1 Jn 2:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1 Jn 2:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Firstfruits

alethos
Jan 5th 2009, 01:59 PM
I have never sinned after being born again....and neither have you.



Have you ever had an impure thought since you became saved?

Have you ever lost your temper since you became saved?

Whatever your answer might be the Epistle of 1 John was written to believer's in Christ. Want proof?

1 John 5:13 I have written these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God

What things?

Well everything in this Epistle that precedes this verse is what the author is referring to.

And what did the author previously write to believers?

Lets look.

1 John 1:8 If we say, "We have no sin," we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Now since the author has already told that he has written these thing to us who believe, then the "we" and "ourselves" in the above verse has to be referring to believers.

A couple of verses later the author again writes to believers and says to them.

1 John 2:1 My little children, I am writing you these things so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father--Jesus Christ the righteous One.

In the above verse the author is telling believers that if any of them do sin, they have an advocate with the Father.

Therefore when other verses in this Epistle say anyone who has been born again cannot sin, what the author means is cannot sin habitually. That is also what the majority of Biblical commentators say. One commentator tells us .....
"the expressions "does not continue to sin," and "cannot go on sining" have often been used to teach that a true Christian, that has been born again is incapable of sinning. But such an interpretation cannot be maintained, unless we are prepared to say that John contradicts himself. In 2:1."

alethos
Jan 5th 2009, 02:02 PM
For whom does the following scripture apply, saved, unsaved or both?

1 Jn 2:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1 Jn 2:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Firstfruits

Hello Firstfruits

The answer to your question can be found a few chapters later in 1 John

1 John 5:13 I have written these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Obviously the author was writting to Christian's

Hope that helps you.

.

faithfulfriend
Jan 5th 2009, 02:20 PM
And what did the author previously write to believers?

Lets look.

1 John 1:8 If we say, "We have no sin," we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.


You must read the whole chapter (sometimes book) in order to rightly divide the word of truth, and thus receive the proper context of the scripture.

This passage was directed to the Gnostics, not the Christians. If you read verse 3:


1Jo 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

Obviously the Gnostics were not in fellowship with the Christians. In short, Gnostics didn't believe in sin (although they committed it), and they did not believe in Christ. That is why verse 1 states:

1Jo 1:1 ¶ That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

This scripture is speaking of Christ. So in short, John is writing to the Gnostics saying:

If you say you have no sin (because they didn't believe in sin) you are deceiving yourselves because you are claiming that you have no sin to be forgiven of, thus Christ's blood cannot help you.

The Bible teaches that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, and therefore all need a Saviour to reconcile them to God.

John addressed this to those claiming they had no guilt, no pollution of sin, and no need of a Saviour. This is not referring to someone that has been born again through the blood of the Lamb and has been cleansed “from all unrighteousness” (I Jn. 1:9).

John said, “These things write I unto you, that ye sin not (I Jn. 2:1). This message is clearly declared throughout his epistles:

“. . . the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” I Jn. 1:7.

“He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” I Jn. 2:4.

“And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins…Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you, he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil, for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin…In this the children of God are manifest and the children of the devil . . .” I Jn. 3:5-10.

The Bible is extremely clear concerning the lives of Christians:

1Jo 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

If you abide in Christ, you will not sin. If you sin, you do not abide in Christ.

1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

They that commit sin are not of God, but rather are of the devil.

1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Those that do righteousness are of God, and do not sin. Those who do unrighteousness (sin) do not know God.

1Jo 5:18 ¶ We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Also, if an individual has not committed sin, there is no need for repentance unto Salvation:

Lu 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Sinners are called unto repentance, not the justified (saved).

Yukerboy
Jan 5th 2009, 02:21 PM
For whom does the following scripture apply, saved, unsaved or both?

1 Jn 2:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1 Jn 2:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Firstfruits

Both.

He tells the little children (saved) that they sin not.

He then states that if any man (unsaved) sin, we (the saved and will be saved) have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ.

Jesus died for the world. The whole world. While His blood is only effectual for some, it was shed for all.

Yuke

Yukerboy
Jan 5th 2009, 02:26 PM
Have you ever had an impure thought since you became saved?

Yes.


Have you ever lost your temper since you became saved?

Many times.


Whatever your answer might be the Epistle of 1 John was written to believer's in Christ. Want proof?

1 John 5:13 I have written these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God

What things?

Well everything in this Epistle that precedes this verse is what the author is referring to.

Once again, not all who believe are born again, but all who are born again do believe.


And what did the author previously write to believers?

Lets look.

1 John 1:8 If we say, "We have no sin," we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Absolutely. We are still in the flesh. Sin abides in our flesh. No doubt about it. Matter of fact, Paul confirms this when he states "it is no longer I who sins, but the sin living within me that does it."

Firstfruits
Jan 5th 2009, 02:39 PM
And those that endure to the end are the born again. No one who doesn't endure to the end are born again.

That means that until death or the return of Christ we can only hope that we shall be saved.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jan 5th 2009, 02:43 PM
Both.

He tells the little children (saved) that they sin not.

He then states that if any man (unsaved) sin, we (the saved and will be saved) have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ.

Jesus died for the world. The whole world. While His blood is only effectual for some, it was shed for all.

Yuke

If they are saved, why would he tell them not to sin?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jan 5th 2009, 02:47 PM
You must read the whole chapter (sometimes book) in order to rightly divide the word of truth, and thus receive the proper context of the scripture.

This passage was directed to the Gnostics, not the Christians. If you read verse 3:


1Jo 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

Obviously the Gnostics were not in fellowship with the Christians. In short, Gnostics didn't believe in sin (although they committed it), and they did not believe in Christ. That is why verse 1 states:

1Jo 1:1 ¶ That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

This scripture is speaking of Christ. So in short, John is writing to the Gnostics saying:

If you say you have no sin (because they didn't believe in sin) you are deceiving yourselves because you are claiming that you have no sin to be forgiven of, thus Christ's blood cannot help you.

The Bible teaches that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, and therefore all need a Saviour to reconcile them to God.

John addressed this to those claiming they had no guilt, no pollution of sin, and no need of a Saviour. This is not referring to someone that has been born again through the blood of the Lamb and has been cleansed “from all unrighteousness” (I Jn. 1:9).

John said, “These things write I unto you, that ye sin not (I Jn. 2:1). This message is clearly declared throughout his epistles:

“. . . the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” I Jn. 1:7.

“He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” I Jn. 2:4.

“And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins…Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you, he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil, for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin…In this the children of God are manifest and the children of the devil . . .” I Jn. 3:5-10.

The Bible is extremely clear concerning the lives of Christians:

1Jo 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

If you abide in Christ, you will not sin. If you sin, you do not abide in Christ.

1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

They that commit sin are not of God, but rather are of the devil.

1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Those that do righteousness are of God, and do not sin. Those who do unrighteousness (sin) do not know God.

1Jo 5:18 ¶ We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Also, if an individual has not committed sin, there is no need for repentance unto Salvation:

Lu 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Sinners are called unto repentance, not the justified (saved).

Were those that were in Christ but then turned away from Christ ever in Christ?

Firstfruits

alethos
Jan 5th 2009, 02:49 PM
Once again, not all who believe are born again, but all who are born again do believe.

I can absolutely assure you that when John in his Epistle refers to believer's. he always is referring to those who have been born again. There's absolutely no support to the contrary. Maybe you should look at what a few commentators have to say concerning this. You might be surprised what you learn.

faithfulfriend
Jan 5th 2009, 02:56 PM
Were those that were in Christ but then turned away from Christ ever in Christ?

Firstfruits

If you mean "in Christ" as being "saved" then yes, it is absolutely possible for an individual to once walk with God but then turn away.

Judas by transgression fell (ceased to be in grace). Salvation can in fact be lost, but that issue has been beat to death on many other threads on this forum.