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ShadowWolf
Dec 25th 2008, 06:46 AM
I know that he was posessed by Satan. I wondered if he was in Heaven though. There's some verse (I'll have to look it up later) where Jesus is talking to his disciples, and said something about them being in Heaven with him. I know that sounds kind of vague, but I will have to look it up.

I believe that he did repent by throwing the money back. He had a repentant heart, and I hope that he did recieve forgiveness.

crossnote
Dec 25th 2008, 07:41 AM
Throwing money back isn't repentance, especially when it is followed by hanging oneself. Judas easily could have called out to the Lord for forgiveness but did not. In contrast Peter was restored after denying His Lord.

Bethany67
Dec 25th 2008, 09:19 AM
I don't believe he did; Jesus says that he was lost:

While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled. John 17:12

kenrank
Dec 25th 2008, 12:17 PM
I know that he was posessed by Satan. I wondered if he was in Heaven though. There's some verse (I'll have to look it up later) where Jesus is talking to his disciples, and said something about them being in Heaven with him. I know that sounds kind of vague, but I will have to look it up.

I believe that he did repent by throwing the money back. He had a repentant heart, and I hope that he did recieve forgiveness.

Does it say he was filled by satan? I don't remember that. I see Judas in the same light as Pharaoh. The heart hardened so events would bring glory to God. Remember, Judas was spoken of in Psalms, not by name but by deed. (I think it was Psalms) He was appointed to a purpose. Maybe he is given a second chance?

Remember what it says of Messiah, that he "went and preached to those once disobediant in the days of Noach." Seeing there are "mortals" in the millenial reign, MAYBE God's grace is greater than we even imagine. Maybe those in Noach's day, maybe people like Judas, are given another chance.

Just remember...I said MAYBE.

Peace.
Ken

divaD
Dec 25th 2008, 01:47 PM
I know that he was posessed by Satan. I wondered if he was in Heaven though. There's some verse (I'll have to look it up later) where Jesus is talking to his disciples, and said something about them being in Heaven with him. I know that sounds kind of vague, but I will have to look it up.

I believe that he did repent by throwing the money back. He had a repentant heart, and I hope that he did recieve forgiveness.



Did Judas go to heaven? Absolutely not. There's 2 concepts taught in Scripture...being saved..being lost. The Scriptures state that Judas was lost. That is the opposite of being saved. That only leaves lost as the final conclusion in regards to Judas' fate.

ServantofTruth
Dec 25th 2008, 02:30 PM
The idea of Judas going to heaven, i believe, is part of writings outside of the bible. Which makes those writings, almost, valueless. Unless you believe stuff like ................. (i'm not even going to write it).

Some people don't seem to be able to get past, everyone going to heaven. This sounds similar, Judas, being chosen by our Lord, must have always been good, even working under his instructions when he betrayed him. This is obviously complete nonsense.

In my biblical opinion - he is lost. SofTy.

Psalms Fan
Dec 25th 2008, 02:47 PM
Satan entered Judas a little prior to the last supper.
Luke 22:3-6: "Then Satan entered into Judas called Iscariot, who was of the number of the twelve. he went away and conferred with the chief priests and officers how he might betray him to them. And they were glad, and agreed to give him money. So he consented and sought an opportunity to betray him to them in the absence of a crowd." (ESV)

It does say that Judas repented...sort of. There are a couple of Greek words that are translated as "repent". One means "to think differently", or "to have a change in how one exercises the mind" (the word mind in Greek is "nous", which is mind, intellect): repent. The other means "to care differently", or have a change in how you feel toward something: to regret.

In the case of Judas, he regretted what he did, but he did not have a change of mind. He did not truly repent. There was no true change in him, other than his emotions. His actual orientation toward the whole thing remained the same.

The Psalm that speaks of Judas is Psalm 109 (and less explicately in Psalm 69). It says a lot about the character of Judas, and it is far from favorable.

voicenthewildernes
Dec 25th 2008, 03:12 PM
As I have studied on this particular subject in depth I have learned that there are far more scripture to support Judas than there are to condemn him. Scripture in mind, everything that has and is to come is by the will of God. Judas was predestined to fulfill his role in God's plan. It is written that Satan entered his heart the fact remains that Judas was born to be used as an instrument God. If Satan is the one or was in control of Christ's death then Satan has victory over God.

Judas could be condemned by God but I believe the condemnation comes from man. The reason why I say this is that on the 12 seats next the throne of God is where the 12 apostles will sit in judgment of the 12 tribes of Israel. From my count and backed by scripture there are 14 apostles yet only 12 seats. The original 12 apostles were called out by Christ's own voice. Matthias was chosen by casting lots and Paul's claim is through conversion. I am of the mind that those called by Jesus personally will be those who will sit in Judgment of Israel not any other. The book of John tells us that whatever God has given over to Christ that He Christ should not lose one. Though scripture might say Judas is lost it is Christ who decides not any of us. Judas was and I still believe is counted among Christ's sheep. Scripture also supports that Judas and Jesus had loving relationship even though Christ knew what was to come.

If anyone of us who was predestined as Judas was, would it have been better that we not be born so that our preordained act would never to occurred? I believe it so! Scripture condemns Judas but we see not where Christ condemned him in the least and neither should we. If it weren't for Judas where would or how could Grace be upon us? We would still be under the condemnation of the Law and unable to be Justified by it. So taking into totality of Judas's deeds his purpose was the only way to reconcile man back to God.

Again I point out the increase of knowledge in the end time and it being knowledge of God's purpose and will and not the increase of knowledge contained in this world.


Voice

th1bill
Dec 25th 2008, 04:05 PM
... It's an interesting subject and one that is worthy of meditation and the true answer is easily found... in Heaven. I, personally, have always believed that Judas is awaiting the second resurection but if I'm wrong it shan't condemn me to Hell.

reformedct
Dec 25th 2008, 04:57 PM
By trying to pay money back and hang himself, Judas demonstrates a mindstate that does not understand the forgiveness that comes in Jesus and His redemptive work. Had he understood this, he would understand that Christ would take the punishment for his sin, instead of trying to punish himself. Judas was trying to pay his sin debt. we know that we cannot do this, only Jesus can. Judas demonstrates a lack of this knowledge. If you knew you could not pay back your sin, and that the Son of God would on your behalf, why would you hang yourself? also notice how he is always called the son of perdition and spoken of as a cursed being.

It isnt impossible that as he hung himself he repented and believed right before he died but id say it is hiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiighly unlikely. if you are in a position where Satan can fill your heart i think you are pretty jacked up apart from the supernatural work of God doing sommething to you

Gregg
Dec 25th 2008, 06:01 PM
Throwing money back isn't repentance, especially when it is followed by hanging oneself. Judas easily could have called out to the Lord for forgiveness but did not. In contrast Peter was restored after denying His Lord.

I don't know if he is in Heaven or not. But feeling so bad about something that he did, that he committed suicide, might be considered remorse. He certainly had some issues with faith. If this board is any indication of how Christians feel, it would seem that some doubts in the faith department are not all that uncommon.

BCF
Dec 25th 2008, 06:26 PM
I don't understand how it could be possible for Judas to ask for forgiveness for something that he did not do yet?

I have run into many of folks who claim that it is possible to ask for forgiveness for something before you do it....but that would be like telling God this.

God....I'm going to rob a bank today so forgive me for it:hmm:

This to me makes no sense at all. If I was planning on doing something that is against God....I'm sure God would let me know that it was not right. He would have to....He Loves me too much to let me do something that is wrong, and Him not try to stop me. Know whether or not I choose to listen to what God says is a different story all together. But I don't believe that God would not do something.

We have proof of that with Peter. When Peter denied Jesus three times....Peter could have done the same thing that Judas did...but Peter instead choose to listen to what God was telling him...rather then what satan was telling him. Judas did not. He choose to listen to satan instead.

Judas was a follower of Christ just as Jesus was. Judas was among those who Jesus sent out 2 by 2 to teach the gospel. I believe that Judas know just as much as Peter did when it came to what Jesus stood for.

So do I believe that Judas is in heaven...No. Why? Because I can't see how Judas could be forgiven for something that he could not repent for in the first place.


God Bless,

Dave

Bethany67
Dec 25th 2008, 06:40 PM
Jesus Himself said Judas was lost and doomed to destruction, and He should know; that's pretty clear to me.

Gregg
Dec 25th 2008, 06:43 PM
I don't understand how it could be possible for Judas to ask for forgiveness for something that he did not do yet?

I have run into many of folks who claim that it is possible to ask for forgiveness for something before you do it....but that would be like telling God this.

God....I'm going to rob a bank today so forgive me for it:hmm:

This to me makes no sense at all. If I was planning on doing something that is against God....I'm sure God would let me know that it was not right. He would have to....He Loves me too much to let me do something that is wrong, and Him not try to stop me. Know whether or not I choose to listen to what God says is a different story all together. But I don't believe that God would not do something.

We have proof of that with Peter. When Peter denied Jesus three times....Peter could have done the same thing that Judas did...but Peter instead choose to listen to what God was telling him...rather then what satan was telling him. Judas did not. He choose to listen to satan instead.

Judas was a follower of Christ just as Jesus was. Judas was among those who Jesus sent out 2 by 2 to teach the gospel. I believe that Judas know just as much as Peter did when it came to what Jesus stood for.

So do I believe that Judas is in heaven...No. Why? Because I can't see how Judas could be forgiven for something that he could not repent for in the first place.


God Bless,

Dave

As an accepter of the gift of salvation (Thank you Jesus), are the sins that I am going commit (ones that right now I have no intention or knowledge of) from this moment forward (as long as the Lord gives me) forgiven? I believe they are.

Again I have no idea about Judas. That is up to God.

BCF
Dec 25th 2008, 07:00 PM
As an accepter of the gift of salvation (Thank you Jesus), are the sins that I am going commit (ones that right now I have no intention or knowledge of) from this moment forward (as long as the Lord gives me) forgiven? I believe they are.

Again I have no idea about Judas. That is up to God.



Yes....that's right. And I understand what you are saying. But.....I find a scripture that was taught by Jesus himself to Judas and all of His disciples at the time.

We find it in John 14:6-7 where it says:

"I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him."

It is for this reason that I say what I say my friend. Judas knew this, and also went out and taught this to people when Jesus sent them out 2 by 2.

So we cannot say that Judas did not know that what he was going to do was wrong. He know that he was not going to get to the Father unless it was through Jesus. He knew this and taught this...himself.

God Bless,

Dave

dljc
Dec 25th 2008, 08:13 PM
I think Jesus Himself answered this question before it was asked.

Matthew 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

Woe means Woe, as in the Seven Woes placed on the scribes and pharisees. (Matthew 23)

Biastai
Dec 26th 2008, 06:25 AM
The oral traditions concerning Judas undergo some notable changes in each gospel when read in order of their written date and because of this, it became a topic of interest for me. One might notice that more and more of an evil role is attributed to Judas along the way. Let's start with the earliest of the gospels, Mark...

"Then Judas Iscariot, one of the Twelve, went to the chief priests to betray Jesus to them. They were delighted to hear this and promised to give him money. So he watched for an opportunity to hand him over."
Mark 14:10,11

"While they were reclining at the table eating, he said, 'I tell you the truth, one of you will betray me—one who is eating with me.'
They were saddened, and one by one they said to him, 'Surely not I?'
'It is one of the Twelve,' he replied, 'one who dips bread into the bowl with me. The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.'"
Mark 14:18-21

In the Markan account, Judas doesn't necessarily initiate an exchange of money with the chief priests. Jesus doesn't explicitly point out Judas nor speaks words directly to him at the supper.

"Then one of the Twelve—the one called Judas Iscariot—went to the chief priests and asked, 'What are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?' So they counted out for him thirty silver coins. From then on Judas watched for an opportunity to hand him over."
Matthew 26:14-16

"When evening came, Jesus was reclining at the table with the Twelve. And while they were eating, he said, 'I tell you the truth, one of you will betray me.' They were very sad and began to say to him one after the other, 'Surely not I, Lord?' Jesus replied, 'The one who has dipped his hand into the bowl with me will betray me. The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.'
Then Judas, the one who would betray him, said, 'Surely not I, Rabbi?'
Jesus answered, 'Yes, it is you.' "
Matthew 26:20-25

"Now the betrayer had arranged a signal with them: 'The one I kiss is the man; arrest him.' Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, 'Greetings, Rabbi!' and kissed him. Jesus replied, 'Friend, do what you came for.'"
Matthew 26:48-50

In the Matthean account which is after Mark, Judas explicitly initiates the bribe and fulfils a prophecy from the OT. Jesus also speaks directly to Judas regarding the betrayal at the supper which is unrecorded in Mark. Matthew adds Judas' remorse and suicide which has been mentioned enough in this thread.

"Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve. And Judas went to the chief priests and the officers of the temple guard and discussed with them how he might betray Jesus. They were delighted and agreed to give him money. He consented, and watched for an opportunity to hand Jesus over to them when no crowd was present."
Luke 22:3-6

While he was still speaking a crowd came up, and the man who was called Judas, one of the Twelve, was leading them. He approached Jesus to kiss him, but Jesus asked him, 'Judas, are you betraying the Son of Man with a kiss?'"
Luke 22:47,48

Luke adds that Satan entered Judas prior to his act. Matthew, Mark, and Luke all agree on the signal given to indicate the man betrayed. Jesus and Judas are not recorded to have exchanged and words at the supper. Luke's record of what Jesus said to Judas at his arrest further condemns
him according to Mark 14:21. Luke is said to have used the Markan account as a source for his gospel.

"The evening meal was being served, and the devil had already prompted Judas Iscariot, son of Simon, to betray Jesus."

"Jesus answered, 'It is the one to whom I will give this piece of bread when I have dipped it in the dish.' Then, dipping the piece of bread, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, son of Simon. As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him. 'What you are about to do, do quickly,' Jesus told him, but no one at the meal understood why Jesus said this to him."
John 13:2, 26-28

"But one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was later to betray him, objected, 'Why wasn't this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year's wages.' He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it."
John 12:4-6

John follows Luke's possession of Judas by Satan. For this reason, does Luke and John lack the suicide account? Possession by Satan and remorse don't exactly go together. They exchange words at the supper. The account of the arrest adds nothing concerning Judas, but here Jesus clearly appears more divine than in the other accounts in causing those who came to arrest him to draw back and fall to the ground. Another interesting point is that the John gospel accuses Judas of being a dishonest treasurer which is something that is not mentioned in the other gospels. Was is true? Or something attributed later to Judas due to the growing evil memory of him?

Interestingly, throughout these accounts, the opinions on Judas range from representing him as one who may have been honestly doubtful of Jesus' messianic claims and went to the priests to one who was an utterly evil pawn of Satan. Was he as bad as he is said to be?

crossnote
Dec 26th 2008, 07:03 AM
I don't understand how it could be possible for Judas to ask for forgiveness for something that he did not do yet?

I have run into many of folks who claim that it is possible to ask for forgiveness for something before you do it....but that would be like telling God this.

God....I'm going to rob a bank today so forgive me for it:hmm:

This to me makes no sense at all. If I was planning on doing something that is against God....I'm sure God would let me know that it was not right. He would have to....He Loves me too much to let me do something that is wrong, and Him not try to stop me. Know whether or not I choose to listen to what God says is a different story all together. But I don't believe that God would not do something.

We have proof of that with Peter. When Peter denied Jesus three times....Peter could have done the same thing that Judas did...but Peter instead choose to listen to what God was telling him...rather then what satan was telling him. Judas did not. He choose to listen to satan instead.

Judas was a follower of Christ just as Jesus was. Judas was among those who Jesus sent out 2 by 2 to teach the gospel. I believe that Judas know just as much as Peter did when it came to what Jesus stood for.

So do I believe that Judas is in heaven...No. Why? Because I can't see how Judas could be forgiven for something that he could not repent for in the first place.


God Bless,

Dave

I was thinking of Judas repenting and asking for forgiveness after he sold his Master downstream...instead of running off and hanging himself.

BCF
Dec 26th 2008, 07:07 AM
yeah....but I don't believe that scripture supports that anywhere.

crossnote
Dec 26th 2008, 07:07 AM
I don't understand how it could be possible for Judas to ask for forgiveness for something that he did not do yet?

I have run into many of folks who claim that it is possible to ask for forgiveness for something before you do it....but that would be like telling God this.

God....I'm going to rob a bank today so forgive me for it:hmm:

This to me makes no sense at all. If I was planning on doing something that is against God....I'm sure God would let me know that it was not right. He would have to....He Loves me too much to let me do something that is wrong, and Him not try to stop me. Know whether or not I choose to listen to what God says is a different story all together. But I don't believe that God would not do something.

We have proof of that with Peter. When Peter denied Jesus three times....Peter could have done the same thing that Judas did...but Peter instead choose to listen to what God was telling him...rather then what satan was telling him. Judas did not. He choose to listen to satan instead.

Judas was a follower of Christ just as Jesus was. Judas was among those who Jesus sent out 2 by 2 to teach the gospel. I believe that Judas know just as much as Peter did when it came to what Jesus stood for.

So do I believe that Judas is in heaven...No. Why? Because I can't see how Judas could be forgiven for something that he could not repent for in the first place.


God Bless,

Dave

I was thinking of Judas repenting and asking for forgiveness after he sold his Master downstream...instead of running off and hanging himself.

BCF
Dec 26th 2008, 07:12 AM
I was thinking of Judas repenting and asking for forgiveness after he sold his Master downstream...instead of running off and hanging himself.

Yeah....I understand what you are saying. But I don't see anywhere in scripture that would support that thought of yours. B/c he did go and hang himself.

threebigrocks
Dec 26th 2008, 05:47 PM
To ponder.

The condition of the heart is known by it's fruit. We don't know a lot about Judas. He was the keeper of the treasury and the only formally educated person of the 12. The rest were common men. What do we know of his fruit? Do actions such as what we saw in Judas come from a heart for the Lord? Would one who when approached by the pharisees prior to satan entering into him make a deal to sell out Christ have a heart that is able to show the fruit we'd expect?

Our actions follow what is in our heart.

Pilgrimtozion
Dec 26th 2008, 06:31 PM
Isn't Judas called the son of perdition? Doesn't say enough in itself concerning his eternal state?

Lordistruth
Dec 26th 2008, 06:44 PM
Why all the Judas hate?! He is maybe a hero of the Gospel. Was not the Crucifixtion and Ressurection the necessary plan by God to save us all?! Would Jesus have gotten there without the help of Judas? Why would God punish the man that carried out his plan? God's plan was for Jesus to be sacrificed, Judas had a hand in the sacrifice that God required so why would God damn him for this? Judas was greif stricken with what happened becuase he didn't understand what was happening. The man felt so bad as to give all the money back and then take his own life.

I can not fathom that God cast Judas to hell for helping him carry out his master plan.

Pilgrimtozion
Dec 26th 2008, 07:00 PM
First of all, I do not think there is much Judas-hate. I am simply stating that the Bible calls Judas 'the son of perdition'. Jesus called him that for a reason. Now Judas may have been grief-stricken, he may have felt bad...but all of that does not equate repentance. Judas made the choices that he made and ultimately has to pay the price for them. Yes, he was used to carry out God's master plan, but only because God foreknew that Judas would make the choices that he did. Judas deserves no merit for his choices in that context.

theBelovedDisciple
Dec 26th 2008, 07:01 PM
Isn't Judas called the son of perdition? Doesn't say enough in itself concerning his eternal state?


Exactly.. he is referred to as the son of perdition...

Do a Word Study on that word 'perdition' .. and you will see what it says matching up with Jesus's own Words.. that He 'lost' none of His .. but the one (Judas) who was 'lost'.. so that the Scripture might be fulfilled...

Judas was 'lost' and his eternal state will be the Lake of Fire..... along with those who are judged at the GWT .. the wicked or lost...

Judas will once again stand before the Lord Jesus Christ but it will not be as His disciple.. but it will be when he is judged out of those books...and being not found in the Lambs Book of Life.. because Jesus said it Himself and the Scriptue declares Judas was lost..

To claim now that Judas will be in Heaven is 'contrary' to what Scripture declares....

This sounds alot like 'Universalism'.. everybody will be saved in the end.. this of course is not the Truth..

dljc
Dec 26th 2008, 07:15 PM
Why all the Judas hate?! He is maybe a hero of the Gospel. Was not the Crucifixtion and Ressurection the necessary plan by God to save us all?! Would Jesus have gotten there without the help of Judas? Why would God punish the man that carried out his plan? God's plan was for Jesus to be sacrificed, Judas had a hand in the sacrifice that God required so why would God damn him for this? Judas was greif stricken with what happened becuase he didn't understand what was happening. The man felt so bad as to give all the money back and then take his own life.

I can not fathom that God cast Judas to hell for helping him carry out his master plan.So does that mean Caiaphas is also in heaven? He played a part in this too. What about king Herod, and the other plots to kill Jesus. Is it safe to say they are in heaven too, just because of their part in the overall part they played in this?

chad
Dec 26th 2008, 07:25 PM
I guess the question we could ask is : Was Judas Iscariots betrayal of Jesus, the will of God.

Jesus knew that one of the twelve disciples was going to betray him, he knew who it was, and so did the other 12 discples, but they still let it happen.

(Mat 26:20-25) When evening came, Jesus was reclining at the table with the Twelve. And while they were eating, he said, "I tell you the truth, one of you will betray me."

(Mat 26:24-25 NIV) The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born." Then Judas, the one who would betray him, said, "Surely not I, Rabbi?" Jesus answered, "Yes, it is you."

Even at the time of betrayal, the discples could have resisted and escaped, but Jesus did allow this to happen.


(Luke 22:47 NIV) While he was still speaking a crowd came up, and the man who was called Judas, one of the Twelve, was leading them. He approached Jesus to kiss him, (48) but Jesus asked him, "Judas, are you betraying the Son of Man with a kiss?"

(49) When Jesus' followers saw what was going to happen, they said, "Lord, should we strike with our swords?" (50) And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear.


Jesus words were fillfilled in Mark 14:21 when Judas hung himself.

(Mark 14:21 NIV) The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born."


Chad :rolleyes:



Why all the Judas hate?! He is maybe a hero of the Gospel. Was not the Crucifixtion and Ressurection the necessary plan by God to save us all?! Would Jesus have gotten there without the help of Judas? Why would God punish the man that carried out his plan? God's plan was for Jesus to be sacrificed, Judas had a hand in the sacrifice that God required so why would God damn him for this? Judas was greif stricken with what happened becuase he didn't understand what was happening. The man felt so bad as to give all the money back and then take his own life.

I can not fathom that God cast Judas to hell for helping him carry out his master plan.

theBelovedDisciple
Dec 26th 2008, 10:25 PM
Why all the Judas hate?! He is maybe a hero of the Gospel. Was not the Crucifixtion and Ressurection the necessary plan by God to save us all?! Would Jesus have gotten there without the help of Judas? Why would God punish the man that carried out his plan? God's plan was for Jesus to be sacrificed, Judas had a hand in the sacrifice that God required so why would God damn him for this? Judas was greif stricken with what happened becuase he didn't understand what was happening. The man felt so bad as to give all the money back and then take his own life.

I can not fathom that God cast Judas to hell for helping him carry out his master plan.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Judas did what he did.. so that the Scripture may be fulfilled... Jesus said He was 'lost'.. One should probably take a close look at that word before making an assumption.... Now if he is not lost.. and in Heaven today.. then that makes His Word not to be True and God a liar.. Jesus Said he (Judas) was lost.. and this so that the Scripture may be fulfilled... One needs to study that word 'perdition'.. God is Soveriegn and His Providence is over all.. even His plan of Redemption.. which was in place even before the Foundation of the World.. Peter states in the Book of Acts.. that Jesus was turned over by 'wicked' men.. and crucified 'slew on a tree'....... This would include all those who 'plotted' in His murder... according to the Scriptures the Relgious elite had been plotting that for quite some time.. and Jesus was turned over because their hearts were full of 'envy'.. and 'spite'... Judas was used in that plan...

Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:


God knew ahead of time what Judas would do... as described by this passage right here in Acts...and not only that.. but his actions are spoken of by the Psalmist in the Psalms.. hundreds of years before it happened...

Even Pilate when Jesus was standing before him.. 'knew' that the chief priests had delivered Jesus unto him because of envy... this is Pilate.. he even 'knew' of their envy and jealousy of those religous elite....

But Pilate answered them, saying, Will ye that I release unto you the King of the Jews?

For he knew that the chief priests had delivered him for envy.

Judas was used by those priests and he was a part of their wicked plan...and this God already 'knew' about.. it did not suprise Him nor was He 'shocked' by Judas's actions..... it had to happen because God said it would... and Jesus said Judas was the one who was 'lost'.. He didnt lose any other than him who the Scripture talked about... this was Judas.

Lordistruth
Dec 26th 2008, 10:37 PM
God needed Jesus to be Crucified. Judas caused that to happen. Herod and Caiaphus too carried out God's will. So first we have to establish wether or not it was God's will that Jesus be crucified, which I think we can all agree, it was. So God wanted Jesus to be Crucified. So after it happens, God punishes the men who did it?!

quiet dove
Dec 26th 2008, 10:52 PM
God needed Jesus to be Crucified. Judas caused that to happen. Herod and Caiaphus too carried out God's will. So first we have to establish wether or not it was God's will that Jesus be crucified, which I think we can all agree, it was. So God wanted Jesus to be Crucified. So after it happens, God punishes the men who did it?!

The men who did this, in terms of Judas and so on, still made a choice, they were confronted with options and made choices.

God also wants all men to be saved, but those men still have to make a choice. God, all knowing, still never, forces, we have our free will to make a choice as to what we will or will not do.

theBelovedDisciple
Dec 26th 2008, 11:53 PM
God needed Jesus to be Crucified. Judas caused that to happen. Herod and Caiaphus too carried out God's will. So first we have to establish wether or not it was God's will that Jesus be crucified, which I think we can all agree, it was. So God wanted Jesus to be Crucified. So after it happens, God punishes the men who did it?!
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Many talk of God being Sovereign and that His Providence is over all. they believe that and then talk about it.. but when the rubber his the roadand when the Scripture declares that God does what He wants and that certain men were ordained unto this .. in the Plan of Redemption... and that they 'were' lost.. and are still 'lost'..... then they don't understand... they ask ... How could God allow someone to go to Hell?

this really baffles me...

The Scripture declares them as 'wicked'.. and we know that the 'wicked' will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.... How can a wicked person inherit the Kingdom of Heaven... they CAN'T.. but if those who are 'wicked'.. are at one time converted (born again)... by the Will of God.. whose Will? God's will..... then they are no longer deemed 'wicked' .. but Righteous .. by Christ's atoning work on that bloody tree.. believing on that for the forgiveness of sins.. God's Righteousness, which has nothing to do with us or our 'religous works' .. but His Gift... the Gift of Righteousness..

God is Soveriegn and His Providence is over all.. and He thru His Foreknowledge and determinate Will ordained some 'wicked' men to be used to carry out the Plan of Redemption... and they did.... Is God unrighteous to allow these men to be 'lost'? I don't think so... Is God a loving God? Yes He is.. but He is also Just, Righteous, and He is Sovereign.. He does what He does.. Some may have a view that God is a 'tyrant' because He allows men/women to be 'lost'.... I can attest and testity that He is not..

but man in his/her rebellious ways and hardened heart refuse that Great Salvation which is in Jesus the Christ.. that Salvation which 'belongs' to God Himself.. and no other.. He is the Author of it and He is the Finisher of it..reserved to Him and those He has chosen... those He has known since the foundation of the world..

If God was not to allow any wicked to be lost.. what would be the point of the Lake of Fire which is burning with fire and brimstone..( the 2nd Death)..... and the Great White Throne of Judgement??? There are the wicked (damned) and those who are Saved (born again from Above by the Will of God).. There is no in between... a person is either one of these...

and Jesus said Judas was 'lost... so that the Scripture may be fullfilled..

Thaddaeus
Dec 27th 2008, 05:46 AM
Lu 22:3 (http://bibleforums.org/lu+22:3)Then entered SATAN into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.



Joh 17:12 (http://bibleforums.org/joh+17:12)While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the SON OF PERDITION; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Ac 1:25 (http://bibleforums.org/ac+1:25)That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which JUDAS by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
if he was the son of perdtion hell is to only place he could go

crossnote
Dec 27th 2008, 07:28 AM
Yeah....I understand what you are saying. But I don't see anywhere in scripture that would support that thought of yours. B/c he did go and hang himself.

I think you did miss my point. When I stated

"I was thinking of Judas repenting and asking for forgiveness after he sold his Master downstream...instead of running off and hanging himself. "

I only meant it as a hypothetical possibility of the route he should have taken.

EarlyCall
Dec 27th 2008, 01:09 PM
I don't believe he did; Jesus says that he was lost:

While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled. John 17:12


I think Jesus Himself answered this question before it was asked.

Matthew 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

Woe means Woe, as in the Seven Woes placed on the scribes and pharisees. (Matthew 23)


Why all the Judas hate?! He is maybe a hero of the Gospel. Was not the Crucifixtion and Ressurection the necessary plan by God to save us all?! Would Jesus have gotten there without the help of Judas? Why would God punish the man that carried out his plan? God's plan was for Jesus to be sacrificed, Judas had a hand in the sacrifice that God required so why would God damn him for this? Judas was greif stricken with what happened becuase he didn't understand what was happening. The man felt so bad as to give all the money back and then take his own life.

I can not fathom that God cast Judas to hell for helping him carry out his master plan.

Pharaoh was used by God too. Did God punish Pharaoh even though He used him? Indeed He did. All the plagues and finally the last one took Pharaoh's son. Apparently being used by God and being a part of His plan do not get you into heaven. Like God said, He uses even the wicked to fulfill His plans.

From all the scripture concerning judas, we cannot draw the picture of thought that judas actually believed Christ was who He claimed to be. While judas was stealing money from the treasury bag he kept to his betrayal of Christ, nothing of that denotes belief in Christ as the Son of God.

Are the Roman soldiers that actually put Christ on the cross in heaven because they too were used by God and part of the plan? What of the jews that cried out for Jesus to be crucified? Oh how they plotted against Christ and yet we must consider them a part of the overall plan. Are they too in heaven because they were used by God?

None of it is the case.

threebigrocks
Dec 27th 2008, 04:29 PM
Pharaoh was used by God too. Did God punish Pharaoh even though He used him? Indeed He did. All the plagues and finally the last one took Pharaoh's son. Apparently being used by God and being a part of His plan do not get you into heaven. Like God said, He uses even the wicked to fulfill His plans.

From all the scripture concerning judas, we cannot draw the picture of thought that judas actually believed Christ was who He claimed to be. While judas was stealing money from the treasury bag he kept to his betrayal of Christ, nothing of that denotes belief in Christ as the Son of God.

Are the Roman soldiers that actually put Christ on the cross in heaven because they too were used by God and part of the plan? What of the jews that cried out for Jesus to be crucified? Oh how they plotted against Christ and yet we must consider them a part of the overall plan. Are they too in heaven because they were used by God?

None of it is the case.

Was Pharoah's heart already set against Israel before Moses came to free them?

cross crusader
Dec 28th 2008, 04:27 AM
I know that he was posessed by Satan. I wondered if he was in Heaven though. There's some verse (I'll have to look it up later) where Jesus is talking to his disciples, and said something about them being in Heaven with him. I know that sounds kind of vague, but I will have to look it up.

I believe that he did repent by throwing the money back. He had a repentant heart, and I hope that he did recieve forgiveness.
no judas is not in heaven... let me ask this... if judas had never taken communion would satan had filled his heart?? point to ponder... 1 cor 11. i think he had the chance to repent but took the lords supper in an unworthy manner... hence judgement was brought on him, he never repented after the fact he was never restored. he is not in heaven.

voicenthewildernes
Dec 28th 2008, 05:04 AM
Yes....that's right. And I understand what you are saying. But.....I find a scripture that was taught by Jesus himself to Judas and all of His disciples at the time.

We find it in John 14:6-7 where it says:

"I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him."

It is for this reason that I say what I say my friend. Judas knew this, and also went out and taught this to people when Jesus sent them out 2 by 2.

So we cannot say that Judas did not know that what he was going to do was wrong. He know that he was not going to get to the Father unless it was through Jesus. He knew this and taught this...himself.

God Bless,

Dave
Very good point. The world condemns Judas just as it condemned Christ. While hanging on a tree Jesus asked His Father to forgive them for they know what they do. This one sentence prayer covers Judas because he truly didn't know what he was doing by handing over Jesus. All must remember that it is not for us to pass judgment, Christ will judge the entire world. Let He who is King of Kings separate the goats from His sheep.


Voice

TransformedSon
Dec 28th 2008, 05:08 AM
I think Jesus Himself answered this question before it was asked.

Matthew 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

Woe means Woe, as in the Seven Woes placed on the scribes and pharisees. (Matthew 23)

To play "devil's advocate"--Solomon also said he wish he would have never been born. Do you think he went to heaven?

dljc
Dec 28th 2008, 07:20 AM
To play "devil's advocate"--Solomon also said he wish he would have never been born. Do you think he went to heaven?I think Solomon went to heaven. Read that verse again, that is a judgment, not a thought someone had who may have been feeling the woes of having 300 wives and 700 concubines plus being a king. I would imagine the stress would be pretty high with all those things considered. I might be wishing I'd never been born either. :lol: Jesus was the One passing the judgment, not Judas on himself.

EarlyCall
Dec 28th 2008, 02:01 PM
Was Pharoah's heart already set against Israel before Moses came to free them?

I'd say it was since he kept them as slaves.

ShadowWolf
Jan 22nd 2009, 07:40 PM
These are all interesting perspectives. I was hoping that I wouldn't be considered a loon for posting this. This idea isn't part of my theology persay, but something I was just curious about.

Thanks.

SnakeWesker
Jan 22nd 2009, 09:40 PM
If Judas wanted forgiveness, he should have went to Jesus on the cross, not to go bring the money back. Jesus would have forgiven him. They did not.

And plus, Judas killed himself, and if you ask me, anyone who kills himself most likely doesn't see Heaven. I say most likely because I'm not one to ever say that "this guy went to Heaven," or "this guy is in Hell," because it's really not my decision to make, and I am nowhere near the final say in such matters, obviously.

Yukerboy
Jan 23rd 2009, 03:14 PM
If Judas wanted forgiveness, he should have went to Jesus on the cross, not to go bring the money back. Jesus would have forgiven him. They did not.

And plus, Judas killed himself, and if you ask me, anyone who kills himself most likely doesn't see Heaven. I say most likely because I'm not one to ever say that "this guy went to Heaven," or "this guy is in Hell," because it's really not my decision to make, and I am nowhere near the final say in such matters, obviously.

Greetings from Uniontown, PA.

I would agree with you that one who commits suicide is most likely not saved. And I especially like that you qualified your statement afterwards.

Judas was condemned since the beginning of time. Not through suicide, not through betraying Christ, but through unbelief and God's Sovereignty.

As for suicide, I believe there will not be many, but there will be a few who we find are saved.

9Marksfan
Jan 23rd 2009, 04:41 PM
Very good point. The world condemns Judas just as it condemned Christ. While hanging on a tree Jesus asked His Father to forgive them for they know what they do. This one sentence prayer covers Judas because he truly didn't know what he was doing by handing over Jesus.

Why do you think this? BCF's post shows that Judas knew that Jesus was the only way - yet he betrayed Him. I would even go so far as to say that Judas' betrayal was the most wicked sin ever committed.


All must remember that it is not for us to pass judgment, Christ will judge the entire world. Let He who is King of Kings separate the goats from His sheep.

Indeed. But Jesus Himself says that Judas is lost forever:-

"...none of them is lost, except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled". Jn 17:12b NKJV

Love Fountain
Jan 23rd 2009, 06:06 PM
Dear Ladies and Gents of the jury,

This day many come forward to declare the eternal fate of the only disciple Jesus ever called his friend.

Judas, a disciple and friend of Jesus, called and given gifts by Jesus.

Let the word declare whether a witness you read by many here in this thread is true or false.

Many today are giving witness that Judas never repented, to this I ask you all, is that witness true according to the word of God?

Does someone given gifts and called by God need to repent?

It is written!

Rom 11:29

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
KJV

Rom 8:30

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
KJV


As you can see and read for yourself, Judas didn't need to repent, he was called by God personally!

As it is written, those whom God calls are justified!


What does this do to the witness of all who say that Judas never repented?


Bless you,
Love Fountain

Love Fountain
Jan 23rd 2009, 06:29 PM
Indeed. But Jesus Himself says that Judas is lost forever:-

"...none of them is lost, except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled". Jn 17:12b NKJV



Dear Ladies and Gents of the jury,

Does anyone of you see the word Judas in John 17:12?

No? Me either, because Jesus didn't say Judas in John 17:12 as it is written:

John 17:12

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
KJV


Yet Jesus, through Paul says exactly who the son of perdition is in 2Thes2 as follows:

2 Thess 2:3-4
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
KJV


Paul says, "Let no man deceive you", take heed and have a look at 2Thes 2:3-4 and please consider what is written. The son of perdition is that man of sin who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God so that he can be worshipped as God sitting in the temple of God. Sound like Judas? Of course it doesn't sound like Judas because the son of perdition is not Judas, the son of perdition is the devil himself. In all the whole Bible, only one has been sentenced to perish, that is satan himself as it is written in Ezekiel 28, the scripture being fulfilled of satan sentenced to perish.

So why do many try to make the son of perdition in John 17:12 be Judas? They do it so that you will believe that the return of Jesus in imminent, able to happen at any time. Sound familiar like a doctrine you have been told about? How many think Jesus can return at anytime now? 2Thes 2 teaches otherwise and that is why the doctrines of men would have you to believe Judas is the son of perdition, to make you believe Jesus can return at any moment.

Does anyone see the word Judas in John 17:12? If yes, please consider those that told you such nonsense and see if they are also telling you Jesus is coming at anytime now?

Bless you,
Love Fountain

theBelovedDisciple
Jan 23rd 2009, 09:09 PM
This day many come forward to declare the eternal fate of the only disciple Jesus ever called his friend.

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If Judas is the only disciple Jesus ever called Friend.. then I'd like to see where that is recorded in the Scriptures? Jesus said and testified Judas was a 'devil'... but one of you is a devil.......

As its recorded in John..... Jesus spoke to His Diciples as being His Friend and Friends.. not only those who were in His Presense and Witnessed His ministry and sufferings.. but those who would Come to Him thru the Father later...

Notice that Jesus spoke about 'Friends' and calling His Dicsciple Friends..AFTER Judas has left the Last Supper.. this after Satan entered into him and he had put the sop into the dish with Jesus.....and this after he left the room to go to the chief priests to betray Jesus.. for 30 pieces of silver..

Judas was 'not present'.. when this Diaglogue took place as recorded in the Gospel of John...

He (judas) then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night.
Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him.

theBelovedDisciple
Jan 23rd 2009, 09:28 PM
How many think Jesus can return at anytime now?

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Not only do I believe He will Return at any moment.. but I also 'know' He will...
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Do you think Jesus can return at any moment? Do you think He has returned already?
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Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.


Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Love Fountain
Jan 23rd 2009, 10:07 PM
This day many come forward to declare the eternal fate of the only disciple Jesus ever called his friend.

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If Judas is the only disciple Jesus ever called Friend.. then I'd like to see where that is recorded in the Scriptures?


Dear Ladies and Gents of the jury,


It is written,

Ps 41:9

9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.
KJV


Is there anyone that doesn't believe that "mine own familiar friend" in Psalm 41:9 is not referencing Judas?




As its recorded in John..... Jesus spoke to His Diciples as being His Friend and Friends.. not only those who were in His Presense and Witnessed His ministry and sufferings.. but those who would Come to Him thru the Father later...


It is written that John the Baptist is called friend in John 3:29, Lazarus a friend in John 11:11 and the Jews used the word friend speaking to Pilate in John 19:12.

The word "friends" is written in John 15:13, 14 and 15 when Jesus answered a question by Judas, not Isacariot.

Please provide a verse recorded in John to document and support Jesus calling any other disciple a friend? It's not their because Judas is the only disciple Jesus specifically calls a friend.


So please, ladies and gents of the jury, please consider why would you want to consider that the only disciple of the tribe of Judah, the only disciple called a friend by Jesus, an Apostle and disciple, one who was given gifts and called by Jesus, one who was justified because of his calling without a need to repent, why would anyone want to declare the eternal fate of one of Jesus' friends whom He personally chose.

May those with eyes to see, perceive and those with ears to hear, understand what is written.

Matt 9:12-13

12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.

13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
KJV


In name of Iesous,
Love Fountain

Blake Henry
Jan 24th 2009, 01:17 AM
Before Jesus was betrayed by Judas Jesus knew it would happen. Judas apparently was 'created' to betray Jesus to fulfull the words of the Old Testement. So why would God create a man to be a part of the Bible only to send him to hell?

Old Earther
Jan 24th 2009, 02:44 AM
Jesus told the 12 that they would be with Him in the Kingdom. Judas was one of the 12, and Jesus dones't lie.

mikebr
Jan 24th 2009, 02:57 AM
I know that he was posessed by Satan. I wondered if he was in Heaven though. There's some verse (I'll have to look it up later) where Jesus is talking to his disciples, and said something about them being in Heaven with him. I know that sounds kind of vague, but I will have to look it up.

I believe that he did repent by throwing the money back. He had a repentant heart, and I hope that he did recieve forgiveness.

ME TOO!!!:pp:pp:pp

sheina maidle
Jan 24th 2009, 02:57 AM
Throwing money back isn't repentance, especially when it is followed by hanging oneself. Judas easily could have called out to the Lord for forgiveness but did not. In contrast Peter was restored after denying His Lord.
Amen! Jesus called Judas the "son of perdition". He did not repent....he was remorseful and sorry he got caught.

While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. (John 17:12)

threebigrocks
Jan 24th 2009, 04:17 AM
Jesus told the 12 that they would be with Him in the Kingdom. Judas was one of the 12, and Jesus dones't lie.

Where does it say that the 12 apostles that followed Jesus would be in heaven? If I recall correctly, Jesus says:

John 6
66From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him. 67"You do not want to leave too, do you?" Jesus asked the Twelve.
68Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God."
70Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!" 71(He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)


Mark 14
16The disciples went out and came to the city, and found it just as He had told them; and they prepared the Passover. 17When it was evening He came with the twelve.
18As they were reclining at the table and eating, Jesus said, "Truly I say to you that one of you will betray Me--one who is eating with Me."
19They began to be grieved and to say to Him one by one, "Surely not I?"
20And He said to them, "It is one of the twelve, one who dips with Me in the bowl.
21"For the Son of Man is to go just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born."

9Marksfan
Jan 24th 2009, 11:39 AM
Before Jesus was betrayed by Judas Jesus knew it would happen. Judas apparently was 'created' to betray Jesus to fulfull the words of the Old Testement. So why would God create a man to be a part of the Bible only to send him to hell?

Because it was necessary for Christ to suffer in this way, in order to overcome one of the worst hurdles any man can overcome - betrayal by a friend - it was ultimately for the glory of God that Judas was created.

9Marksfan
Jan 24th 2009, 11:40 AM
Jesus told the 12 that they would be with Him in the Kingdom. Judas was one of the 12, and Jesus dones't lie.

No - I believe Judas had left the room by that stage. I agree that Jesus doesn't lie, so He must have only been addressing the 11.