PDA

View Full Version : Total Inability of Man



reformedct
Dec 26th 2008, 03:16 AM
this thread is not for a "team" to debate their "side" of the issue.

the purpose of this thread is to answer this one question, using nothing more than Scripture:

Is man, apart from an inward act/work of God, able to choose salvation?

in other words, is man, left to himself, apart from God, in a state of Total Inability to come to God, love God, trust God, truly repent, truly put faith in Christ

lets try to stay focused on the question at hand and not drift off into discussions of unconditional election and predestination and such

let the games begin

divaD
Dec 26th 2008, 03:31 AM
this thread is not for a "team" to debate their "side" of the issue.

the purpose of this thread is to answer this one question, using nothing more than Scripture:

Is man, apart from an inward act/work of God, able to choose salvation?

in other words, is man, left to himself, apart from God, in a state of Total Inability to come to God, love God, trust God, truly repent, truly put faith in Christ

lets try to stay focused on the question at hand and not drift off into discussions of unconditional election and predestination and such

let the games begin




Personally, I find it somewhat of a problem to support any position/conclusion with just Scripture. Why? Because, while the Scripture may appear to support a certain position, that's not always the case when the context also needs to be considered. I can put forth Scriptures all day long and claim that it means this, that it means that, and still be completely in error because I didn't also consider the context. I think you're simply asking a tall order if you expect your question to be answered on Scripture alone.

mikebr
Dec 26th 2008, 03:32 AM
this thread is not for a "team" to debate their "side" of the issue.

the purpose of this thread is to answer this one question, using nothing more than Scripture:

Is man, apart from an inward act/work of God, able to choose salvation?

in other words, is man, left to himself, apart from God, in a state of Total Inability to come to God, love God, trust God, truly repent, truly put faith in Christ

lets try to stay focused on the question at hand and not drift off into discussions of unconditional election and predestination and such

let the games begin


Apart from God? Would you be willing to elaborate? How can a man be apart from God when God is omniscient and omnipresent? I believe the Spirit of God can and does communicate with man. The Heavens declare His glory. So if God could and would completely withdraw Himself from man I suppose that man couldn't come to God, love God, trust God, truly repent, truly put faith in Christ. To me its kinda like asking if a man can truly breathe underwater apart from oxygen. No.

reformedct
Dec 26th 2008, 03:49 AM
Apart from God? Would you be willing to elaborate? How can a man be apart from God when God is omniscient and omnipresent? I believe the Spirit of God can and does communicate with man. The Heavens declare His glory. So if God could and would completely withdraw Himself from man I suppose that man couldn't come to God, love God, trust God, truly repent, truly put faith in Christ. To me its kinda like asking if a man can truly breathe underwater apart from oxygen. No.


let me clarify what i mean by "apart from God"

i mean a man who is just a plain, ordinary sinner. Can he in and of himself repent and believe apart from being born again. hope that helps

even if we cant all agree on a conclusion lets at least discuss.

BCF
Dec 26th 2008, 04:00 AM
let me clarify what i mean by "apart from God"

i mean a man who is just a plain, ordinary sinner. Can he in and of himself repent and believe apart from being born again. hope that helps

even if we cant all agree on a conclusion lets at least discuss.

Let me ask you friend...do you remember a time when you were totally apart from God?

quiet dove
Dec 26th 2008, 04:09 AM
let me clarify what i mean by "apart from God"

i mean a man who is just a plain, ordinary sinner. Can he in and of himself repent and believe apart from being born again. hope that helps

even if we cant all agree on a conclusion lets at least discuss.

I say no. And the reason being is that we are separated from Him, and while we have some measure of understanding of right and wrong, we do not really have an accurate understanding of the fact that we are indeed sinners facing death, and in need of a Redeemer to wash away our sins. In other words, I believe our pride would be standing in the way, same pride that tends to get us in trouble most days.

I believe we owe everything to Him, that in no matter can we take credit for having turned to Him. We know we did not pay for our sin, but I mean, there is in no other way that we can credit ourselves, not even for knowing we are sinners and knowing we need a Savior

1Jn 4:19 We love Him because He first loved us.

I believe the Holy Spirit convicts the heart of sin, at which time we have a choice to make.
Joh 16:8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Sirus
Dec 26th 2008, 06:22 AM
let me clarify what i mean by "apart from God"

i mean a man who is just a plain, ordinary sinner. Can he in and of himself repent and believe apart from being born again. hope that helps
It's a rhetorical question. You cannot separate the sinner from the God who designed the environment in which man man could choose to sin or obey. If we say man who has a spirit and soul created by God for God seeks God then he does so because of how he was created.

crossnote
Dec 26th 2008, 07:42 AM
When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
(Mat 19:25-26)

And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved? And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.
(Mar 10:26-27)

Zack702
Dec 26th 2008, 03:14 PM
God created this world and not man.
So then when has man been without God?

I think that God hid his face from us that we might not force wrath in our wickedness. But that when we see his face again we will be found as saved by Christ and worthy of his presence. But certainly God is with us spiritually and provides for us the way and the light.

In any case this does remind me of a passage from Isaiah.
18Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
19If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

I think that not only are we capable of doing these things but deep down we know these things without being told. And these "things" that are deep down are like a light.

That is where our ability to choose comes into play.
We have the ability to cover that light and blot it out.
Which begins a chain reaction.
And we also have the ability to take away its covering.
Which begins a chain reaction.

These abilities are our abiblity to "choose" to do something but these choices are allready weighed and fashioned by God. So nothing man does is "on his own" in the sense of him creating the choice and then making it. But rather only in the sense of he either chooses right or wrong. The right way is the narrow way the wrong way is wide.

holyrokker
Dec 27th 2008, 01:41 AM
John 3:3-7
Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his motherís womb and be born?" Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

I think Jesus is saying that spiritual birth can come only from the Holy Spirit.

Butch5
Dec 27th 2008, 07:35 PM
this thread is not for a "team" to debate their "side" of the issue.

the purpose of this thread is to answer this one question, using nothing more than Scripture:

Is man, apart from an inward act/work of God, able to choose salvation?

in other words, is man, left to himself, apart from God, in a state of Total Inability to come to God, love God, trust God, truly repent, truly put faith in Christ

lets try to stay focused on the question at hand and not drift off into discussions of unconditional election and predestination and such

let the games begin

The question is moot,


John 12:32 ( KJV ) 32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

MacGyver
Dec 27th 2008, 10:11 PM
No, man apart from God cannot. Everyone needs the help of the Holy Spirit in order to turn to God. But it does require us to respond to the call of God, in other words God desires all people to come to Him 2Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

Sirus
Dec 27th 2008, 10:25 PM
No, man apart from God cannot. Everyone needs the help of the Holy Spirit in order to turn to God.What scripture says this?

The Parson
Dec 27th 2008, 10:50 PM
What scripture says this?Maybe he is thinking of this scripture Sirus: John 6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Maybe?

Sirus
Dec 27th 2008, 11:12 PM
I know he was but it doesn't say any such thing. The context clearly says the work of the Father is to believe in the Son and that it is the Son's flesh and blood we must partake of. The Father draws by the Cross just as Jesus said was the work he would do. There is nothing in either passage about the Spirit doing anything.
BTW; notice 'every man hath heard' in there?
Like Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

The Cross

SIG
Dec 27th 2008, 11:23 PM
Luke 15:17 "When he came to his senses, he said, 'How many of my father's hired men have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! 18 I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired men.' 20 So he got up and went to his father."

What made the prodigal son return?

Yukerboy
Dec 28th 2008, 12:31 AM
Is man, apart from an inward act/work of God, able to choose salvation?


No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Every other place you will find the word draw, it means drag.

And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.

Christ speaks the truth here also, for all men will be dragged to him....at the judgement.

Never will you find all men dragged or drawn or whatever to Christ unless you believe in universalism.

Yuke

Sirus
Dec 28th 2008, 12:47 AM
Luke 15:17 "When he came to his senses, he said, 'How many of my father's hired men have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! 18 I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired men.' 20 So he got up and went to his father."

What made the prodigal son return?
dirty stinky and hungry?

reformedct
Dec 28th 2008, 02:56 AM
there are just so many scriptures that calls unbelievers enemies of God, wicked, with minds against God and unable to submit to God, dead in their tresspasses and sins, slaves to sin

So after Scripture paints that kind of picture, i do not see how an enemy of God would all of the sudden be willing to "choose" to repent and believe, unless God first did something inside of him

im not here to say im right just trying to find truth

also i ind it interesting in the story with Lydia i believe where it says God opened her heart to recieve what the preacher was saying. The bible says God opened her heart?

Zack702
Dec 28th 2008, 03:42 AM
I think that the truth is that God blessed us from day one but for the most part people decided to cover up the truth when they forsake it.

I believe that they choose to hide the truth.

When they become aware they are hidding the truth then believing isn't even a question.

But just because one person is more honest than the other does it mean that God gave them special attention?
Perhaps rather the honest person is the one who is giving special attention to God.

reformedct
Dec 28th 2008, 03:56 AM
I think that the truth is that God blessed us from day one but for the most part people decided to cover up the truth when they forsake it.

I believe that they choose to hide the truth.

When they become aware they are hidding the truth then believing isn't even a question.

But just because one person is more honest than the other does it mean that God gave them special attention?
Perhaps rather the honest person is the one who is giving special attention to God.

i thank you all or your contributions and "beliefs" however i am seeking to examine what the Scriptures say. We can believe a lot o things but if Scripture does not back it up we must change our "beliefs"

not trying to be mean just get on to scripture and not just our opinions

threebigrocks
Dec 28th 2008, 04:35 AM
let me clarify what i mean by "apart from God"

i mean a man who is just a plain, ordinary sinner. Can he in and of himself repent and believe apart from being born again. hope that helps

even if we cant all agree on a conclusion lets at least discuss.

John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

Luke 15
1Now all the tax collectors and the sinners were coming near Him to listen to Him. 2Both the Pharisees and the scribes began to grumble, saying, "This man receives sinners and eats with them."
3So He told them this parable, saying,
4"What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?
5"When he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
6"And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, 'Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!'
7"I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.



John 6
43"Stop grumbling among yourselves," Jesus answered. 44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

John 14
6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."
8Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."


Acts 8

30Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. "Do you understand what you are reading?" Philip asked.
31"How can I," he said, "unless someone explains it to me?" So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.



Romans 10
16But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?" 17Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. 18But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:
"Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world."

We are drawn, but the rest can easily happen in a short amount of time. The drawing one to Him may take a while, for me it did, but when the rest fell into place, having heard the Word, it's hard to separate. Once we truly realize our need for a Savior - believing and repenting can many times be seen as a chicken/egg moment. Many can't separate it.




Perhaps rather the honest person is the one who is giving special attention to God.

God desires all men to come to Him, through His Son. It's when we recognize the call, hear, repent and believe that we "return the attention".

reformedct
Dec 28th 2008, 04:39 AM
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

Luke 15
1Now all the tax collectors and the sinners were coming near Him to listen to Him. 2Both the Pharisees and the scribes began to grumble, saying, "This man receives sinners and eats with them."
3So He told them this parable, saying,
4"What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?
5"When he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
6"And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, 'Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!'
7"I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.



John 6
43"Stop grumbling among yourselves," Jesus answered. 44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

John 14
6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."
8Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."


Acts 8

30Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. "Do you understand what you are reading?" Philip asked.
31"How can I," he said, "unless someone explains it to me?" So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.



Romans 10
16But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?" 17Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. 18But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:
"Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world."

We are drawn, but the rest can easily happen in a short amount of time. The drawing one to Him may take a while, for me it did, but when the rest fell into place, having heard the Word, it's hard to separate. Once we truly realize our need for a Savior - believing and repenting can many times be seen as a chicken/egg moment. Many can't separate it.




God desires all men to come to Him, through His Son. It's when we recognize the call, hear, repent and believe that we "return the attention".


i see that God desires all to repent. I guess my next question is:

can an ordinary sinner effectually "hear" the gospel. Salvation always involves a change of heart no? so does the change come before repenting or after?

Zack702
Dec 28th 2008, 05:15 AM
God desires all men to come to Him, through His Son. It's when we recognize the call, hear, repent and believe that we "return the attention".
I agree totaly. This is what I mean that God blessed us with a way to find him. That we would all seek heaven. And that we are all of equal importance.

threebigrocks
Dec 28th 2008, 05:17 AM
Well, repenting is knowing something wrong has been done. It is the awakening to truth of the Word, to know we are laid bare.

Romans 4
12For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
13And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.


Now, I know this is a passage addressed to believers, but really the Word of God starts to divide those joints and marrow when the realization comes that we are against a holy and living God. It's that laid bare part that the Spirit does when we are drawn. That ought to never leave our conscience, but to continue to convict, to move us from milk to meat, to the fullness of the faith as we journey.

reformedct
Dec 28th 2008, 05:29 AM
Well, repenting is knowing something wrong has been done. It is the awakening to truth of the Word, to know we are laid bare.

Romans 4
12For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
13And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.


Now, I know this is a passage addressed to believers, but really the Word of God starts to divide those joints and marrow when the realization comes that we are against a holy and living God. It's that laid bare part that the Spirit does when we are drawn. That ought to never leave our conscience, but to continue to convict, to move us from milk to meat, to the fullness of the faith as we journey.


i definetly agree with this, however what i am saying is who is responsible for showing someone that they are "laid bare"?

so then it is the Spirit who reveals we are laid bare? or do we realize we are laid bare and then recieve the Spirit?

which came first the chicken or the egg? lol

threebigrocks
Dec 28th 2008, 05:40 AM
i definetly agree with this, however what i am saying is who is responsible for showing someone that they are "laid bare"?

so then it is the Spirit who reveals we are laid bare? or do we realize we are laid bare and then recieve the Spirit?

which came first the chicken or the egg? lol

:lol: Yes.


1 Corinthians 3
1And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ. 2I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able,
3for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?
4For when one says, "I am of Paul," and another, "I am of Apollos," are you not mere men?
5What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one.
6I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth.
7So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth.
8Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor.
9For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.

We have a part. Part is us being the hands and feet in obedience to His will, through humility, and part is the direct hand of the Spirit. Took me 33 years after having grown up in the church to "get it". I didn't get the fancy coach bus to salvation - more like the short bus. :lol: But every time I heard the word a seed was planted. I listened with my head, but the Spirit can work with that. ;)

Butch5
Dec 28th 2008, 06:24 AM
Maybe he is thinking of this scripture Sirus: John 6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Maybe?

Jesus said this to the Jews, at that time no could come to the Father unless they were drawn, because the mystery had not yet been revealed. Jesus said, if He was lifted up, He would draw all men unto Himself. After the cross, the mystery was revealed to the apostles, and they in turn preached it to all. After the cross, all are drawn, before the cross only certain peoeple were drawn (to fulfil God's plan), and they were the only ones who could come.