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Bladers
Dec 26th 2008, 05:25 PM
Genesis 1:1 - In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Genesis 1:2 - And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Was = Hayah (Hebrew), it means became/becomes.

(And the earth became formless, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.[HEBREW])

What do you think? Something is not right... It has nothing to do with the 6 days. Before the 6 days something happened.

Millions of christians believes that the earth is 6,000 years old, while there are thousands of proofs that says other wise.

Sciences proofs the bible.

(6)And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

Where did the water come from? restoring not creating...

(7)And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

Not creating out of nothing, but making out of something..

(9)And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

Where did the dry land come from? it was already there, covered with water.

Br. Barnabas
Dec 26th 2008, 08:56 PM
This is what some people/Christians have believed through out history that it was not creation out of nothing. But creation out of something. In other words God has existed since all time but either the world was also there or the authors of the Bible do not mention or know how the earth got here so they just start with the world was void and formless. It is also interesting to note that almost always water is opposed to God it is choactic but God is ordered. One of the reasons on the new earth there will be no more sea, because it is the oldest enemy of God. It is used to destory in the time of Noah and still brings great destruction.

So what we see in the 1st chapter and beginning of the 2nd of Genesis (ie the 1st creation story) we see God ordering what is there and creating new things. While in the 2nd creation story we read that God made the earth and the heavens. In this one everything is made for the purpose of mankind. Whereas in the 1st creation story man is the end result of creation.

So it comes down to take which story you like better do you like that there was something here and God ordered it and made it into what he wanted or do you want there to have been nothing and God makes things just the way he wants them.

th1bill
Dec 26th 2008, 10:38 PM
Genesis 1:1 - In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Genesis 1:2 - And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Was = Hayah (Hebrew), it means became/becomes.

(And the earth became formless, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.[HEBREW])

What do you think? Something is not right... It has nothing to do with the 6 days. Before the 6 days something happened.

Millions of christians believes that the earth is 6,000 years old, while there are thousands of proofs that says other wise.

Sciences proofs the bible.

(6)And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

Where did the water come from? restoring not creating...

(7)And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

Not creating out of nothing, but making out of something..

(9)And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

Where did the dry land come from? it was already there, covered with water.
... The answer for this entire set of ideas is the same and it goes right back to the early 1950s six grade science class. The first rule was and is that everything has a root cause and therefore nothing can be the result of nothing. The only way that something can result from nothing is for an external force to be awesomely super powered and to create it. Even if you disbelieve God (and if you do there can be no salvation) and go back to the severely crippled Big Bang lunacy, the critical mass had to have an origin or a cause that is external of our existence. You, very simply, cannot place God inside a test tube and explain Him. The wisest thing any man can ever do is to accept what God has said because God is true.

Toymom
Dec 26th 2008, 10:46 PM
A college professor who is the head of a major science dept at a major college and who is also a Christian has said that the Bible tells us "why" - not "how", and science attempts to explain "how".
So, I prefer not to get all bent out of shape about the numbers in the Bible. To me, there is no way that the earth could be 6000 years old. But that does not bother me. I still believe in God and that the Bible is His inspired word.

divaD
Dec 26th 2008, 10:59 PM
Where did the water come from?

I would love for you to tell us, using Scripture to prove your position.




Not creating out of nothing, but making out of something..


Who is claiming to the contrary?

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

This is where God created something out of nothing.
What does He then do next? He starts forming, and establishing order, in relation to what He had created. This can easily be seen in Psalms 104, among other places, too numerous to list.



Where did the dry land come from? it was already there, covered with water.


Exactly! I won't argue with you there.

Bladers
Dec 26th 2008, 11:14 PM
I would love for you to tell us, using Scripture to prove your position.


Jeremiah had a vision of the creation and spoke of it, but he saw it backwards. Read and study it from verse 27 to 23

Backwards

(27)For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.(fully destroy it[will restore it])

(26)I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

(25)I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

(24)I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

(23)I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.


Well, He didnt just show it to Jeremiah. But He also showed it to Job.

Job 9:5-8

5 He moves mountains without their knowing it
and overturns them in his anger.

6 He shakes the earth from its place
and makes its pillars tremble.

7 He speaks to the sun and it does not shine;
he seals off the light of the stars.

8 He alone stretches out the heavens
and treads on the waves of the sea.

This all leads to Verse 8 of Job and this is all talking about Genesis 1:2 - And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

This is telling us, some time in Earth's History. He was so angry, He destroyed the mountains, shook the earth, and shut up the stars and heavens.

Same thing that God showed Jeremiah


He also showed it to Isaiah, My brother He did not leave any of the prophets out of touch.

Isaiah 24:1 - Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.

The LORD GOD was so angry, He turned the earth up side down(LITERALLY)!

chad
Dec 26th 2008, 11:15 PM
IMO, the forming is part of the creation process. God creates it then begins to form it as a part of the creation process.

Some things needed to be created. Some things could be formed from what was already created by God.

Chad :rolleyes:

Bladers
Dec 26th 2008, 11:18 PM
IMO, the forming is part of the creation process. God creates it then begins to form it as a part of the creation process.

Some things needed to be created. Some things could be formed from what was already created by God.

Chad :rolleyes:


Did you look at the scriptures from job and jeremiah?

My brothers, where do demons come from? they also explain it
How was dinosaurs destroyed? they explain it!

Bladers
Dec 27th 2008, 12:33 AM
Do you want more? then open your spiritual eyes and hears.

Genesis 6:6-7 : And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

God says He will destroy men and animals, not the earth.

2 Peter 3:5 - For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: (6)Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: (7)But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

The first question was, whence was the water that we see in Genesis 1:6,7 & 8. Lets Look at verse 5 in 2peter, and you will see whence that happened. Verse 5 explains it all. And then it continues to verse 6, "the world that then was". The world before adam. "being overflowed with water", we see that in Genesis 1:2 and in Job 9.


The world before adam:
This is the world that God created in the beginning and later destroyed by flood (Gen 1:1, Gen 1:2).

The world now:
This is the world that was restored after the great flood and will one day be destroyed by fire at the second coming (2Pe 3:7)

A new heavens and a new earth:
This is the world we will inhabit after the second coming (2Pe 3:13).

Athanasius
Dec 27th 2008, 01:11 AM
Jeremiah had a vision of the creation and spoke of it, but he saw it backwards. Read and study it from verse 27 to 23

Backwards

(27)For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.(fully destroy it[will restore it])

(26)I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

(25)I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

(24)I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

(23)I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

This is prophecy concerning Judah, just as Jeremiah 3 is prophecy concerning Israel. Specifically what would happen if Israel and Judah did not repent from their sins against God.

This is not a "vision of creation". It speaks of future, limited judgment. Not past, earth wide judgment.



Well, He didnt just show it to Jeremiah. But He also showed it to Job.

Job 9:5-8

5 He moves mountains without their knowing it
and overturns them in his anger.

6 He shakes the earth from its place
and makes its pillars tremble.

7 He speaks to the sun and it does not shine;
he seals off the light of the stars.

8 He alone stretches out the heavens
and treads on the waves of the sea.

This all leads to Verse 8 of Job and this is all talking about Genesis 1:2 - And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

This is telling us, some time in Earth's History. He was so angry, He destroyed the mountains, shook the earth, and shut up the stars and heavens.

Same thing that God showed Jeremiah

Well in my reading of Job 9 this neither refers to Jeremiah nor to Genesis 1:2. I don't really know what else to say besides... (re)read the account? This is completely out of context and just wrong.



He also showed it to Isaiah, My brother He did not leave any of the prophets out of touch.

Isaiah 24:1 - Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.

The LORD GOD was so angry, He turned the earth up side down(LITERALLY)!

Actually read the entire chapter, you're taking this verse (all of these verses) out of context. Again, future [limited] judgment (Israel and Edom in the case of Isaiah), not past.


Do you want more? then open your spiritual eyes and hears.

Genesis 6:6-7 : And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

God says He will destroy men and animals, not the earth.

2 Peter 3:5 - For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: (6)Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: (7)But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

The first question was, whence was the water that we see in Genesis 1:6,7 & 8. Lets Look at verse 5 in 2peter, and you will see whence that happened. Verse 5 explains it all. And then it continues to verse 6, "the world that then was". The world before adam. "being overflowed with water", we see that in Genesis 1:2 and in Job 9.

And if I ask the question, "Where did the water for this flood come from?" would you reply, "from the flood before this"? There is nothing in these two sections of scripture that would even begin to indicate anything other than the flood in Noah's days is being referenced.

divaD
Dec 27th 2008, 01:33 AM
(6)Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:




2 Peter 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;


According to the way you interpret 2 Peter ch 3, we may as well ignore what we learned in ch 2? 2 Peter 2:5 tells us EXACTLY what the world that then was in 2 Peter ch 3. It was the world of the ungodly. When? During Noah's time, and not in some unproven prev earth age.

2 Peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:


Notice in both of these verses the uses of 'earth' and 'world'. Now look up both words in the Greek. They are not the same Greek words. Now go back to 2 Peter 2:5 and look at 'world' in that verse. This is the same Greek word used for world in 2 Peter 3:5. This means that in 2 Peter 3:5, earth and world can't mean the same thing. This is where you need to start. You need to first decide what 'earth' and ''world' mean, and what they're related to, before you can even suggest that 2 Peter ch 3 points to a prev unknown earth age. That's not what ch 2 says.

Bladers
Dec 27th 2008, 02:17 AM
2 Peter 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;


According to the way you interpret 2 Peter ch 3, we may as well ignore what we learned in ch 2? 2 Peter 2:5 tells us EXACTLY what the world that then was in 2 Peter ch 3. It was the world of the ungodly. When? During Noah's time, and not in some unproven prev earth age.

2 Peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:


Notice in both of these verses the uses of 'earth' and 'world'. Now look up both words in the Greek. They are not the same Greek words. Now go back to 2 Peter 2:5 and look at 'world' in that verse. This is the same Greek word used for world in 2 Peter 3:5. This means that in 2 Peter 3:5, earth and world can't mean the same thing. This is where you need to start. You need to first decide what 'earth' and ''world' mean, and what they're related to, before you can even suggest that 2 Peter ch 3 points to a prev unknown earth age. That's not what ch 2 says.

Chapter 2 is different from chapter 3. Why? God didnt destroy the earth during noah, He destroyed it before adam. Verse 5 of chapter 3 also proves it.

Bladers
Dec 27th 2008, 02:21 AM
This is prophecy concerning Judah, just as Jeremiah 3 is prophecy concerning Israel. Specifically what would happen if Israel and Judah did not repent from their sins against God.

This is not a "vision of creation". It speaks of future, limited judgment. Not past, earth wide judgment.


My brother, your the one who is not reading these verses in the spirit, you can not interpret them in the flesh. It is impossible.. Its like you didnt even read it.


"I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light."

Thats is so simple... If you think thats the future. I'm sorry to tell you but your wrong, what your saying is that God will destroy the heavens and the earth if israel and judah doesnt repent. And if you don't see the connection of job 9 and Jeremiah 4, then i dont think you read it.

Bladers
Dec 27th 2008, 02:37 AM
(7)But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

(6)Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

The world before adam perished not the people of the world after him. "was", "past-tense", not existing anymore
world = heavens and earth

(5) For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

Here it also mentions that the heaven was of old. Nevertheless the other scriptures from Jeremiah 4 and Job 9, spoke of this.

dljc
Dec 27th 2008, 03:00 AM
(7)But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

(6)Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

The world before adam perished not the people of the world after him. "was", "past-tense", not existing anymore
world = heavens and earth

(5) For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

Here it also mentions that the heaven was of old. Nevertheless the other scriptures from Jeremiah 4 and Job 9, spoke of this.Bladers,

You are absolutely correct the word "was" is past tense, and since Moses wrote Genesis and not Adam, he used the appropriate context of the word. The only gap between verses 1 and 2 in Genesis 1 is the natural gap that occurs between sentences that are separated in verse form. How many times did God have to try this experiment we know as life?

Bladers
Dec 27th 2008, 03:13 AM
Bladers,

You are absolutely correct the word "was" is past tense, and since Moses wrote Genesis and not Adam, he used the appropriate context of the word. The only gap between verses 1 and 2 in Genesis 1 is the natural gap that occurs between sentences that are separated in verse form. How many times did God have to try this experiment we know as life?

My brother the "was" in 2 peter chapter 3 is "tote": meaning at that time/then.

But the "was" in Genesis is "hayah": means to become, became, come to pass, happen, fall out

Bladers
Dec 27th 2008, 03:29 AM
Pre-Adam Flood


Psalm 104:4-9

(4)Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

(5)Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.

(6)Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment(God's wrath): the waters stood above the mountains.

(7)At thy rebuke they fled; at the voice of thy thunder they hasted away(Gen 1:6-9).

(8)They go up by the mountains; they go down by the valleys unto the place which thou hast founded for them.

(9)Thou hast set a bound that they may not pass over; that they turn not again to cover the earth.

divaD
Dec 27th 2008, 03:38 AM
Thats is so simple... If you think thats the future. I'm sorry to tell you but your wrong, what your saying is that God will
destroy the heavens and the earth if israel and judah doesnt repent. And if you don't see the connection of job 9 and
Jeremiah 4, then i dont think you read it.

Again, you need to go to the Hebrew. It's pretty apparent from the context that this is not talking about the entire earth as a whole, but is talking about a specific area or land in the earth. 'erets' is used at least 7 times in Jer 4, including the time that it is rendered 'earth' in verse 23. 'erets' consistently means pretty much the same thing throughout this entire ch. We determine it's meaning via the context.

Jeremiah 4 was a prophecy. Prophecies imply future, they don't imply past.


Read verses 23-26, then read the remaining of the ch. This explains verses 23-26. For example, and I'll try to keep it simple.

4:25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.


Why was there no man? 27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate;
29 The whole city shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen *; they shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the
rocks: every city shall be forsaken, and not a man dwell therein.

Verse 29 also explains verse 26. Actually it's a bit more complicated than that, but it would be too tedious for me to try and explain.

Also, verse 25 tells us that there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

In order for there to be no man(btw, this is the same Hebrew word used for Adam), there would have to be man in the first place. It just seems a little ridiculous to mention that there was no man if there were really literally no man in existence. Also, where did the birds come from before they were formed om day 5? If this passage is in ref to Gen 1:2, then clearly there were no birds at that time, yet this verse specifically states that the birds of heaven were fled.

dljc
Dec 27th 2008, 03:39 AM
My brother the "was" in 2 peter chapter 3 is "tote": meaning at that time/then.

But the "was" in Genesis is "hayah": means to become, became, come to pass, happen, fall outMy brother you are looking at the wrong word or words in 2 Peter 3.

tote
tot'-eh

From (the neuter of) G3588 and G3753; the when, that is, at the time that (of the past or future, also in consecution): - that time, then.

The word "was" is always past tense in sentence structure.

Verse 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

This verse is putting past tense into the present as if you were there. The key is what follows the comma, "being" overflowed. The word "was" still has the same meaning in 2 Peter 3 as it does in Genesis 1. It came to pass that the world was flooded in Noah's day.

Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was without form"

hâyâh
haw-yaw'
A primitive root (compare H1933); to exist, that is, be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary): - beacon, X altogether, be (-come, accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), continue, do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-) self, require, X use.

dljc
Dec 27th 2008, 03:49 AM
Pre-Adam Flood


Psalm 104:4-9

(4)Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

(5)Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.

(6)Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment(God's wrath): the waters stood above the mountains.

(7)At thy rebuke they fled; at the voice of thy thunder they hasted away(Gen 1:6-9).

(8)They go up by the mountains; they go down by the valleys unto the place which thou hast founded for them.

(9)Thou hast set a bound that they may not pass over; that they turn not again to cover the earth.Bladers,

Is earth hell? I know some might say it is, but how can earth be hell?

2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Bladers
Dec 27th 2008, 03:51 AM
Again, you need to go to the Hebrew. It's pretty apparent from the context that this is not talking about the entire earth as a whole, but is talking about a specific area or land in the earth. 'erets' is used at least 7 times in Jer 4, including the time that it is rendered 'earth' in verse 23. 'erets' consistently means pretty much the same thing throughout this entire ch. We determine it's meaning via the context.

Jeremiah 4 was a prophecy. Prophecies imply future, they don't imply past.


Read verses 23-26, then read the remaining of the ch. This explains verses 23-26. For example, and I'll try to keep it simple.

4:25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.


Why was there no man? 27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate;
29 The whole city shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen *; they shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the
rocks: every city shall be forsaken, and not a man dwell therein.

Verse 29 also explains verse 26. Actually it's a bit more complicated than that, but it would be too tedious for me to try and explain.

Also, verse 25 tells us that there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

In order for there to be no man(btw, this is the same Hebrew word used for Adam), there would have to be man in the first place. It just seems a little ridiculous to mention that there was no man if there were really literally no man in existence. Also, where did the birds come from before they were formed om day 5? If this passage is in ref to Gen 1:2, then clearly there were no birds at that time, yet this verse specifically states that the birds of heaven were fled.


My brother, Jeremiah saw a vision. "I beheld, lo"

He saw a vision of a earth, that was going through disaster, the earth moved, the mountains was over turned, pure darkness (Gen 1:2). and He expected to see people, but 25 says "I looked, and there were no people;". Job also elaborates on this and add more details to it.

Before God destroyed the first earth, He must have created animals in it. Even scientists are beginning to find instantly frozen animals in rocks.

Now if it was the future, then it would have or will happen. But its not.

Bladers
Dec 27th 2008, 03:53 AM
Bladers,

Is earth hell? I know some might say it is, but how can earth be hell?

2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

No it is not hell, why?

We already have our own human made hell going on called "human wickedness". Let me ask you something, why did God destroy the race in Noah's generation?

dljc
Dec 27th 2008, 04:03 AM
No it is not hell, why?Because God's Word can't and doesn't contradict itself.

We already have our own human made hell going on called "human wickedness". Let me ask you something, why did God destroy the race in Noah's generation?Genesis 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Bladers
Dec 27th 2008, 04:12 AM
Genesis 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

NO, thats not the reason. The wickedness then is like nano wickedness compared to the wickedness now, my brother. If that was the case, its 1 billion times wicked now than then.

But He did see that the wickedness was great back then, i cant deny that. But He destroyed them because He already planned our salvation to come from the seed of man. And the fallen angels came and perverted the seed of man with the seed of angels. Now man became man and angel offsprings. And Jesus could not come through the seed, and He had to destroy that man and angel race completely.


Lev 20:15 - "If a man has sex with an animal, he must be put to death and you must kill the animal.

Athanasius
Dec 27th 2008, 04:23 AM
My brother, your the one who is not reading these verses in the spirit, you can not interpret them in the flesh. It is impossible.. Its like you didnt even read it.

Are you then telling me that every time you read scripture you do so in the Spirit, so that every interpretation of scripture you believe is by direct revelation of the Spirit? For example what you're "teaching" in this thread?



"I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light."

Thats is so simple... If you think thats the future. I'm sorry to tell you but your wrong, what your saying is that God will destroy the heavens and the earth if israel and judah doesnt repent. And if you don't see the connection of job 9 and Jeremiah 4, then i dont think you read it.

Alright then, let's examine Jeremiah 4:23, "I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light." (NASV).

If we were to look at just this one verse then I would not disagree with you in that it appears Jeremiah 4:23 is in fact speaking of what we have come to call the Gap Theory. However, as chapter and verse divisions are not native to the text, we are thus required to read those verses that proceed and precede the text in question. We have a responsibility to find out the context of the verse, as quoting one verse is essentially picking one or two lines from a page and making the assertion that those one or two lines are proof of whatever it is trying to be proven. To cite a recent example, it can be likened to what happened to President Obama when, in an ABC interview he said the phrase "my Muslim faith" instead of "my Christian faith" (he corrected himself). As a result of this slip up, this one sentence in an extended interview, it started going around that in fact, Obama had claimed and was indeed Muslim, when in fact he said no such thing -- his comment was taken out of context.

The first question I would ask when dealing with Jeremiah is, "as a prophet, what was Jeremiah's call?" In Jeremiah 1:1-10 (paying special attention especially to verse 10) we find out what Jeremiah's call is:

1The words of Jeremiah the son of Hilkiah, of the priests who were in Anathoth in the land of Benjamin,

2to whom the word of the LORD came in the days of Josiah the son of Amon, king of Judah, in the thirteenth year of his reign.

3It came also in the days of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah, king of Judah, until the end of the eleventh year of Zedekiah the son of Josiah, king of Judah, until the exile of Jerusalem in the fifth month.

4Now the word of the LORD came to me saying,

5"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
And before you were born I consecrated you;
I have appointed you a prophet to the nations."

6Then I said, "Alas, Lord GOD!
Behold, I do not know how to speak,
Because I am a youth."

7But the LORD said to me,
"Do not say, 'I am a youth,'
Because everywhere I send you, you shall go,

8"Do not be afraid of them,
For I am with you to deliver you," declares the LORD.

9Then the LORD stretched out His hand and touched my mouth, and the LORD said to me, "Behold, I have put My words in your mouth.

10"See, I have appointed you this day over the nations and over the kingdoms,
To pluck up and to break down,
To destroy and to overthrow,
To build and to plant."

From verse 10 of Jeremiah chapter 1 we learn Jeremiah's purpose: to pluck up and to break down; to destroy and to overthrow; to build and to plant. The next question I would ask myself is, "what are the examples of Jeremiah's call in this book". I would also, while seeking to answer this question, pay note to miraculous events, such as visions. I am of course referring to Jeremiah's vision in Jeremiah 1:11-19:

11The word of the LORD came to me saying, "What do you see, Jeremiah?" And I said, "I see a rod of an almond tree."

12Then the LORD said to me, "You have seen well, for I am watching over My word to perform it."

13The word of the LORD came to me a second time saying, "What do you see?" And I said, "I see a boiling pot, facing away from the north."

14Then the LORD said to me, "Out of the north the evil will break forth on all the inhabitants of the land.

15"For, behold, I am calling all the families of the kingdoms of the north," declares the LORD; "and they will come and they will set each one his throne at the entrance of the gates of Jerusalem, and against all its walls round about and against all the cities of Judah.

16"I will pronounce My judgments on them concerning all their wickedness, whereby they have forsaken Me and have offered sacrifices to other gods, and worshiped the works of their own hands.

17"Now, gird up your loins and arise, and speak to them all which I command you Do not be dismayed before them, or I will dismay you before them.

18"Now behold, I have made you today as a fortified city and as a pillar of iron and as walls of bronze against the whole land, to the kings of Judah, to its princes, to its priests and to the people of the land.

19"They will fight against you, but they will not overcome you, for I am with you to deliver you," declares the LORD.

It is readily seen that this vision relates to Jeremiah's call, specifically verses 14-16 (v.10 - calling; v.14-16; confirmation, ch.2 ~ execution of calling). From this point on I would further read the text to see how and where Jeremiah's call is confirmed. I'm not going to quote all of Jeremiah, you can read it here (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah;&version=49;). Needless to say, Jeremiahs call as described in Jeremiah 1:10 is quite apparent; warnings of destruction, of sin, of chances for repentance (in which case God will not destroy Israel and Judah).

We now find ourselves returning to Jeremiah 4:23, "I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light..." But first we should read Jeremiah 4:1-8:

1"If you will return, O Israel," declares the LORD,
"Then you should return to Me
And if you will put away your detested things from My presence,
And will not waver,

2And you will swear, 'As the LORD lives,'
In truth, in justice and in righteousness;
Then the nations will bless themselves in Him,
And in Him they will glory."

3For thus says the LORD to the men of Judah and to Jerusalem,
"Break up your fallow ground,
And do not sow among thorns.

4"Circumcise yourselves to the LORD
And remove the foreskins of your heart,
Men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem,
Or else My wrath will go forth like fire
And burn with none to quench it,
Because of the evil of your deeds."

5Declare in Judah and proclaim in Jerusalem, and say,
"Blow the trumpet in the land;
Cry aloud and say,
'Assemble yourselves, and let us go
Into the fortified cities.'

6"Lift up a standard toward Zion!
Seek refuge, do not stand still,
For I am bringing evil from the north,
And great destruction.

7"A lion has gone up from his thicket,
And a destroyer of nations has set out;
He has gone out from his place
To make your land a waste.
Your cities will be ruins
Without inhabitant.

8"For this, put on sackcloth,
Lament and wail;
For the fierce anger of the LORD
Has not turned back from us."

The immediate context of Jeremiah 4 is then a call to repentance (1-4) and if not, the consequences of not repenting (4-8). Thus as I said previously, Jeremiah 4 (and this includes verse 23) is concerned with future judgment of Judah. Future relative to the life of Jeremiah, not to us (to make myself clear).

Jeremiah 4:23, with this background, is then properly understood as a verbal allusion. In referencing Genesis 1:2, Jeremiah is effectively illustrating the extent of God's judgment (judgment will be so complete that the result would be like the earth before it was filled). Jeremiah is not, however, interpreting the meaning of Genesis 1:2. That is to say, he is not substantiating Gappist inclinations. He is simply repeating the text as an illustration; it is not an interpretive act.

As such, you cannot use Jeremiah 4:23 as substantiation of your view, nor can you relate it to Job 9 (there is no relation). Reversing the order of the text is completely uncalled for and considered to be textual alteration for the express purpose of proving a theological point that is not otherwise found in the text; scribes did it all the time and it is a very bad thing.

Bladers
Dec 27th 2008, 04:30 AM
He is simply repeating the text as an illustration; it is not an interpretive act.

So thats what you basically stand on, illustration and allusion? Jeremiah Chap 1 has nothing to do with it Chapter 4.

We also find these scripture from Job 9, in Jeremiah 4.

(5)Which removeth the mountains, and they know not: which overturneth them in his anger. Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble. Which commandeth the sun, and it riseth not; and sealeth up the stars.

My brother the bible reveals the bible!

He (The Holy Spirit) alone stretches out the heavens
and treads (moves) on the waves of the sea.
Gen 1:2 / Job 9:8

We also see this many times in the bible.

Psalm 104:2
He wraps himself in light as with a garment; he stretches out the heavens like a tent

Isaiah 40:22
He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in.

Zechariah 12:1
This is the word of the LORD concerning Israel. The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the spirit of man within him, declares:

What is your opinion of this divaD?

dljc
Dec 27th 2008, 04:35 AM
NO, thats not the reason. The wickedness then is like nano wickedness compared to the wickedness now, my brother. If that was the case, its 1 billion times wicked now than then.

But He did see that the wickedness was great back then, i cant deny that. But He destroyed them because He already planned our salvation to come from the seed of man. And the fallen angels came and perverted the seed of man with the seed of angels. Now man became man and angel offsprings. And Jesus could not come through the seed, and He had to destroy that man and angel race completely.


Lev 20:15 - "If a man has sex with an animal, he must be put to death and you must kill the animal.What makes you better than any one of the people on the planet back then? God said that's why He destroyed life on the planet. It doesn't matter if there were only 1800 people, or 5 billion people.

He destroyed life on the planet except for Noah and his family, to make a way for Jesus. There was no demon seed. Sin came through Adam and Eve. You see, you're trying to explain the physical with the spiritual. That's why I asked if the earth is hell. If it's not, then where is hell? It's in the spiritual realm, not the physical realm, the earth is in the physical realm isn't it? Satan isn't in the physical realm is he, the fallen angels aren't in the physical realm are they? Read the last part of that verse from 2 Peter.

2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

So when is or was the judgment?

Bladers
Dec 27th 2008, 04:45 AM
What makes you better than any one of the people on the planet back then? God said that's why He destroyed life on the planet. It doesn't matter if there were only 1800 people, or 5 billion people.

He destroyed life on the planet except for Noah and his family, to make a way for Jesus. There was no demon seed. Sin came through Adam and Eve. You see, you're trying to explain the physical with the spiritual. That's why I asked if the earth is hell. If it's not, then where is hell? It's in the spiritual realm, not the physical realm, the earth is in the physical realm isn't it? Satan isn't in the physical realm is he, the fallen angels aren't in the physical realm are they? Read the last part of that verse from 2 Peter.

2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

So when is or was the judgment?

My brother, If He had not have destroyed that race, our world's population would have been made up of 99% half man/ half angel creatures.

RogerW
Dec 27th 2008, 04:45 AM
Genesis 1:1 - In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Genesis 1:2 - And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Was = Hayah (Hebrew), it means became/becomes.

(And the earth became formless, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.[HEBREW])

What do you think? Something is not right... It has nothing to do with the 6 days. Before the 6 days something happened.

Millions of christians believes that the earth is 6,000 years old, while there are thousands of proofs that says other wise.

Sciences proofs the bible.

(6)And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

Where did the water come from? restoring not creating...

(7)And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

Not creating out of nothing, but making out of something..

(9)And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

Where did the dry land come from? it was already there, covered with water.

Hebrew "was" hayah - a primitive root (compare 1933); to exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary):--beacon, X altogether, be(-come), accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-)self, require, X use.

1933. hava' - a primitive root (compare 183, 1961) supposed to mean properly, to breathe; to be (in the sense of existence):--be, X have.

In the beginning after God created the heaven and the earth, the earth existed without form and void, until God spoke, giving it light and order. The earth lay waste in the beginning, at it's creation, a desolation and worthless empty place until God spoke, "let there be."

"In the beginning" is translated from the Hebrew re'shiyth - from the same as 7218; the first, in place, time, order or rank (specifically, a firstfruit):--beginning, chief(-est), first(-fruits, part, time), principal thing.

If Moses was speaking of a restoration of something that already existed prior to day one, he could not say "in the beginning". In the beginning was day one when God created the heaven and earth, and gave His created formless void; earth, illumination, dividing the light from darkness and calling it the first day. He called it the first day because "first" comes from 'achad a primitive root meaning to unify.

Many blessings,
RW

Bladers
Dec 27th 2008, 04:52 AM
Hebrew "was" hayah - a primitive root (compare 1933); to exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary):--beacon, X altogether, be(-come), accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-)self, require, X use.

1933. hava' - a primitive root (compare 183, 1961) supposed to mean properly, to breathe; to be (in the sense of existence):--be, X have.

In the beginning after God created the heaven and the earth, the earth existed without form and void, until God spoke, giving it light and order. The earth lay waste in the beginning, at it's creation, a desolation and worthless empty place until God spoke, "let there be."

"In the beginning" is translated from the Hebrew re'shiyth - from the same as 7218; the first, in place, time, order or rank (specifically, a firstfruit):--beginning, chief(-est), first(-fruits, part, time), principal thing.

If Moses was speaking of a restoration of something that already existed prior to day one, he could not say "in the beginning". In the beginning was day one when God created the heaven and earth, and gave His created formless void; earth, illumination, dividing the light from darkness and calling it the first day. He called it the first day because "first" comes from 'achad a primitive root meaning to unify.

Many blessings,
RW

The hebrew says, "and the earth became formless and void."

Nevertheless, Was God creating when He said, "Let there be light"?

RogerW
Dec 27th 2008, 05:00 AM
The hebrew says, "and the earth became formless and void."

Nevertheless, Was God creating when He said, "Let there be light"?

I don't know what translations you are reading from but my KJV reads:

Ge 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

God began creation on day one and continued through day six, then on the seventh day He rested. All things that exist in both heaven and earth were created in these literal six days, just as Scripture tells us.

Ex 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Blessings,
RW

Athanasius
Dec 27th 2008, 05:12 AM
So thats what you basically stand on, illustration and allusion? Jeremiah Chap 1 has nothing to do with it Chapter 4.
We also find these scripture from Job 9, in Jeremiah 4.

(5)Which removeth the mountains, and they know not: which overturneth them in his anger. Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble. Which commandeth the sun, and it riseth not; and sealeth up the stars.

My brother the bible reveals the bible!

He (The Holy Spirit) alone stretches out the heavens
and treads (moves) on the waves of the sea.
Gen 1:2 / Job 9:8

We also see this many times in the bible.

Psalm 104:2
He wraps himself in light as with a garment; he stretches out the heavens like a tent

Isaiah 40:22
He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in.

Zechariah 12:1
This is the word of the LORD concerning Israel. The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the spirit of man within him, declares

I would appreciate it if you could reply to the content of my posts. I enjoy discussing various Biblical views and interpretations, but not if I'm going to spend ten, twenty, thirty minutes writing up a post only for you to ignore what I've written.

Bladers
Dec 27th 2008, 05:12 AM
I don't know what translations you are reading from but my KJV reads:

Ge 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

God began creation on day one and continued through day six, then on the seventh day He rested. All things that exist in both heaven and earth were created in these literal six days, just as Scripture tells us.

Ex 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Blessings,
RW

My brother, three different words are used in Genesis 1. "Create"(out of nothing), "Made"(out of something), "Form"(out of something).

dljc
Dec 27th 2008, 05:23 AM
My brother, three different words are used in Genesis 1. "Create"(out of nothing), "Made"(out of something), "Form"(out of something).Bladers,

Who wrote the 10 Commandments?

Bladers
Dec 27th 2008, 05:28 AM
Are you then telling me that every time you read scripture you do so in the Spirit, so that every interpretation of scripture you believe is by direct revelation of the Spirit? For example what you're "teaching" in this thread?



Alright then, let's examine Jeremiah 4:23, "I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light." (NASV).

If we were to look at just this one verse then I would not disagree with you in that it appears Jeremiah 4:23 is in fact speaking of what we have come to call the Gap Theory. However, as chapter and verse divisions are not native to the text, we are thus required to read those verses that proceed and precede the text in question. We have a responsibility to find out the context of the verse, as quoting one verse is essentially picking one or two lines from a page and making the assertion that those one or two lines are proof of whatever it is trying to be proven. To cite a recent example, it can be likened to what happened to President Obama when, in an ABC interview he said the phrase "my Muslim faith" instead of "my Christian faith" (he corrected himself). As a result of this slip up, this one sentence in an extended interview, it started going around that in fact, Obama had claimed and was indeed Muslim, when in fact he said no such thing -- his comment was taken out of context.

The first question I would ask when dealing with Jeremiah is, "as a prophet, what was Jeremiah's call?" In Jeremiah 1:1-10 (paying special attention especially to verse 10) we find out what Jeremiah's call is:

1The words of Jeremiah the son of Hilkiah, of the priests who were in Anathoth in the land of Benjamin,

2to whom the word of the LORD came in the days of Josiah the son of Amon, king of Judah, in the thirteenth year of his reign.

3It came also in the days of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah, king of Judah, until the end of the eleventh year of Zedekiah the son of Josiah, king of Judah, until the exile of Jerusalem in the fifth month.

4Now the word of the LORD came to me saying,

5"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
And before you were born I consecrated you;
I have appointed you a prophet to the nations."

6Then I said, "Alas, Lord GOD!
Behold, I do not know how to speak,
Because I am a youth."

7But the LORD said to me,
"Do not say, 'I am a youth,'
Because everywhere I send you, you shall go,

8"Do not be afraid of them,
For I am with you to deliver you," declares the LORD.

9Then the LORD stretched out His hand and touched my mouth, and the LORD said to me, "Behold, I have put My words in your mouth.

10"See, I have appointed you this day over the nations and over the kingdoms,
To pluck up and to break down,
To destroy and to overthrow,
To build and to plant."

From verse 10 of Jeremiah chapter 1 we learn Jeremiah's purpose: to pluck up and to break down; to destroy and to overthrow; to build and to plant. The next question I would ask myself is, "what are the examples of Jeremiah's call in this book". I would also, while seeking to answer this question, pay note to miraculous events, such as visions. I am of course referring to Jeremiah's vision in Jeremiah 1:11-19:

11The word of the LORD came to me saying, "What do you see, Jeremiah?" And I said, "I see a rod of an almond tree."

12Then the LORD said to me, "You have seen well, for I am watching over My word to perform it."

13The word of the LORD came to me a second time saying, "What do you see?" And I said, "I see a boiling pot, facing away from the north."

14Then the LORD said to me, "Out of the north the evil will break forth on all the inhabitants of the land.

15"For, behold, I am calling all the families of the kingdoms of the north," declares the LORD; "and they will come and they will set each one his throne at the entrance of the gates of Jerusalem, and against all its walls round about and against all the cities of Judah.

16"I will pronounce My judgments on them concerning all their wickedness, whereby they have forsaken Me and have offered sacrifices to other gods, and worshiped the works of their own hands.

17"Now, gird up your loins and arise, and speak to them all which I command you Do not be dismayed before them, or I will dismay you before them.

18"Now behold, I have made you today as a fortified city and as a pillar of iron and as walls of bronze against the whole land, to the kings of Judah, to its princes, to its priests and to the people of the land.

19"They will fight against you, but they will not overcome you, for I am with you to deliver you," declares the LORD.

It is readily seen that this vision relates to Jeremiah's call, specifically verses 14-16 (v.10 - calling; v.14-16; confirmation, ch.2 ~ execution of calling). From this point on I would further read the text to see how and where Jeremiah's call is confirmed. I'm not going to quote all of Jeremiah, you can read it here (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah;&version=49;). Needless to say, Jeremiahs call as described in Jeremiah 1:10 is quite apparent; warnings of destruction, of sin, of chances for repentance (in which case God will not destroy Israel and Judah).

We now find ourselves returning to Jeremiah 4:23, "I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light..." But first we should read Jeremiah 4:1-8:

1"If you will return, O Israel," declares the LORD,
"Then you should return to Me
And if you will put away your detested things from My presence,
And will not waver,

2And you will swear, 'As the LORD lives,'
In truth, in justice and in righteousness;
Then the nations will bless themselves in Him,
And in Him they will glory."

3For thus says the LORD to the men of Judah and to Jerusalem,
"Break up your fallow ground,
And do not sow among thorns.

4"Circumcise yourselves to the LORD
And remove the foreskins of your heart,
Men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem,
Or else My wrath will go forth like fire
And burn with none to quench it,
Because of the evil of your deeds."

5Declare in Judah and proclaim in Jerusalem, and say,
"Blow the trumpet in the land;
Cry aloud and say,
'Assemble yourselves, and let us go
Into the fortified cities.'

6"Lift up a standard toward Zion!
Seek refuge, do not stand still,
For I am bringing evil from the north,
And great destruction.

7"A lion has gone up from his thicket,
And a destroyer of nations has set out;
He has gone out from his place
To make your land a waste.
Your cities will be ruins
Without inhabitant.

8"For this, put on sackcloth,
Lament and wail;
For the fierce anger of the LORD
Has not turned back from us."

The immediate context of Jeremiah 4 is then a call to repentance (1-4) and if not, the consequences of not repenting (4-8). Thus as I said previously, Jeremiah 4 (and this includes verse 23) is concerned with future judgment of Judah. Future relative to the life of Jeremiah, not to us (to make myself clear).

Jeremiah 4:23, with this background, is then properly understood as a verbal allusion. In referencing Genesis 1:2, Jeremiah is effectively illustrating the extent of God's judgment (judgment will be so complete that the result would be like the earth before it was filled). Jeremiah is not, however, interpreting the meaning of Genesis 1:2. That is to say, he is not substantiating Gappist inclinations. He is simply repeating the text as an illustration; it is not an interpretive act.

As such, you cannot use Jeremiah 4:23 as substantiation of your view, nor can you relate it to Job 9 (there is no relation). Reversing the order of the text is completely uncalled for and considered to be textual alteration for the express purpose of proving a theological point that is not otherwise found in the text; scribes did it all the time and it is a very bad thing.

I read what you said, i agree that Chapter 1 relates to God's call on Jeremiah's life. But what we have to first agree on is, what Jeremiah saw was a vision. And He saw a dark earth, how do you explain that? He looked at the heavens and there was no sun, moon or star? no light?

Sirus
Dec 27th 2008, 05:40 AM
Seems to me Isaiah and Jeremiah were shown the state of the earth in the future. That's the context of both passages anyway. As it was in Genesis 1:2 it will be again.

God saying let there be light was not a creation of light.

Athanasius
Dec 27th 2008, 05:47 AM
I read what you said, i agree that Chapter 1 relates to God's call on Jeremiah's life. But what we have to first agree on is, what Jeremiah saw was a vision. And He saw a dark earth, how do you explain that? He looked at the heavens and there was no sun, moon or star? no light?

Again, Jeremiah 4:23, relating and within the context of the entirety of the book of Jeremiah (or scroll, if that tickles your fancy) is a prophecy regarding what would happen to Judah if they did not repent of their sins and turn back to God (Jeremiah 4:1-8). That is what the text says, that is what the text means; there is nothing more to it. You can't insert meaning into the text by inverting verse order and citing dozens of other scriptures. If Jeremiah is interpreting Genesis 1:2 then you should have no problem finding that in the book of Jeremiah. Fact is however that you can't, which is a big problem for you. Jeremiah is saying the equivalent of "you're going to be annihilated", he's simply using a familiar image to better convey his message.

What you actually need to do before citing Jeremiah, Isaiah, Job, Zachariah and whomever else, is show using only Genesis that there was indeed an original creation which was destroyed and then re-created. RogerW has written sufficiently on this and you've ignored it, just as you've ignored what I've said. So before we start discussing a million scriptures and as a result lose our focus on what matters (and what has not yet been agreed upon), let us discuss Genesis, shall we?

Bladers
Dec 27th 2008, 02:17 PM
Again, Jeremiah 4:23, relating and within the context of the entirety of the book of Jeremiah (or scroll, if that tickles your fancy) is a prophecy regarding what would happen to Judah if they did not repent of their sins and turn back to God (Jeremiah 4:1-8). That is what the text says, that is what the text means; there is nothing more to it. You can't insert meaning into the text by inverting verse order and citing dozens of other scriptures. If Jeremiah is interpreting Genesis 1:2 then you should have no problem finding that in the book of Jeremiah. Fact is however that you can't, which is a big problem for you. Jeremiah is saying the equivalent of "you're going to be annihilated", he's simply using a familiar image to better convey his message.

What you actually need to do before citing Jeremiah, Isaiah, Job, Zachariah and whomever else, is show using only Genesis that there was indeed an original creation which was destroyed and then re-created. RogerW has written sufficiently on this and you've ignored it, just as you've ignored what I've said. So before we start discussing a million scriptures and as a result lose our focus on what matters (and what has not yet been agreed upon), let us discuss Genesis, shall we?

My brother, your the only one not getting it. I mean, others think its the future and all. But you are trying to connect the passage with the whole book. No my brother, It is a prophetic book. You can not do that, one verse can be oftopic from the whole chapter. But what you are doing is to connect them. You can not connect them to make a point, nope. Its like your reading the chapter like a regular book from the store. No, each verse has deep insights.

Bladers
Dec 27th 2008, 02:33 PM
What connection is Jeremiah 4:22, connected with 23? Verse 23 is so deep. No wonder you cant understand it.


Jeremiah 4:23 - I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

Beheld = ra'ah : means to have vision, to cause to see, to show.

He saw a vision. Now are you people telling me that God cant show someone a vision of the past? But its all over the scriptures.

Earth = 'erets: means whole earth (as opposed to a part)

Jeremiah 4:23 - I 'saw a vision' of the whole earth, and, lo, it was without form (wasteland), and void (waste); and the heavens (as abode of the stars), and they had no light [light of heavenly luminaries (moon, sun, stars)].

My brothers, He saw a vision of the earth, and it was a waste land, and he looked up and there were no sun, moon, or stars visible. The other verses confirms he wasnt on the ground but saw it from the sky(atmosphere).



It ends in verse 28. (because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it)
There is no if's or but's.

Pre-Adam Flood Again Shown here


Psalm 104:4-9

(4)Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

(5)Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.

(6)Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment(God's wrath): the waters stood above the mountains.

(7)At thy rebuke they fled; at the voice of thy thunder they hasted away(Gen 1:6-9).

(8)They go up by the mountains; they go down by the valleys unto the place which thou hast founded for them.

(9)Thou hast set a bound that they may not pass over; that they turn not again to cover the earth.

dljc
Dec 27th 2008, 02:33 PM
Bladers, I'm still waiting for you to answer this question. I know it's pretty much a given, I'd just like to hear you say it.

Bladers,

Who wrote the 10 Commandments?

Bladers
Dec 27th 2008, 02:37 PM
Bladers, I'm still waiting for you to answer this question. I know it's pretty much a given, I'd just like to hear you say it.

Well I'm trying to answer everything else and your posing me with non related questions, but nevertheless, lest i offend thee. It was the LORD GOD.

Also lets look here, When has this happened?

Isaiah 24:1 - Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.

The LORD GOD was so angry, He turned the earth up side down(LITERALLY)! WHEN? NOT SINCE ADAM? NOT IN THE FUTURE? BEFORE ADAM!

dljc
Dec 27th 2008, 02:44 PM
Well I'm trying to answer everything else and your posing me with non related questions, but nevertheless, lest i offend thee. It was the LORD GOD.

Also lets look here, When has this happened?

Isaiah 24:1 - Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.

The LORD GOD was so angry, He turned the earth up side down(LITERALLY)! WHEN? NOT SINCE ADAM? NOT IN THE FUTURE? BEFORE ADAM!It's not an unrelated question. Remember what I said about God's Word can't and doesn't contradict itself?

You are saying above when I quoted your response to RogerW, that basically God doesn't know what He's talking about when He gave Moses the 10 Commandments. Because this goes against "your" theory on this topic.

So if God's Word can't and doesn't contradict itself, who's right you or Him?

Bladers
Dec 27th 2008, 02:49 PM
It's not an unrelated question. Remember what I said about God's Word can't and doesn't contradict itself?

You are saying above when I quoted your response to RogerW, that basically God doesn't know what He's talking about when He gave Moses the 10 Commandments. Because this goes against "your" theory on this topic.

So if God's Word can't and doesn't contradict itself, who's right you or Him?


I still dont know what you are talking about? or what point your trying to make? And i never said such thing...

Nevertheless, Was God creating when He said, "Let there be light"? NO, the sun and stars are just like the earth. It was created, but yet we dont see any thing beening created but the Heavens and the earth in Verse 1 and man

dljc
Dec 27th 2008, 02:55 PM
All you have to do is look back over this thread at mine and your conversation. You aren't arguing with me, you're arguing with Him.

Bladers
Dec 27th 2008, 03:00 PM
All you have to do is look back over this thread at mine and your conversation. You aren't arguing with me, you're arguing with Him.

My brother, There is no argument here but revelation of scriptures. And i will leave it at that.
I still have more scriptures to post and talk about. But you guys have not responded to the other one's though.

This stuff is rich and should not be taken lightly, you do not read the scriptures to find a way to disprove its interpretation with the flesh. You read it to understand it!

dljc
Dec 27th 2008, 03:03 PM
My brother, There is no argument here but revelation of scriptures. And i will leave it at that.Revelation of the scriptures is keeping everything in context from Genesis to Revelation. It' can't contradict itself. If it does, we've got it wrong. Keep looking for the Truth, it's in there.

Bladers
Dec 27th 2008, 03:06 PM
Revelation of the scriptures is keeping everything in context from Genesis to Revelation. It' can't contradict itself. If it does, we've got it wrong. Keep looking for the Truth, it's in there.

The bible reveals the bible!

dljc
Dec 27th 2008, 03:24 PM
The bible reveals the bible!The Holy Spirit reveals the Bible to you though.

Bladers
Dec 27th 2008, 03:33 PM
The Holy Spirit reveals the Bible to you though.

and the Bible also reveals the bible.

You take scriptures from John 1:1-3 and you take from Gen 1:1-2 & Genesis 1:26.

Thats revelation right there bro.

dljc
Dec 27th 2008, 03:44 PM
and the Bible also reveals the bible.

You take scriptures from John 1:1-3 and you take from Gen 1:1-2 & Genesis 1:26.

Thats revelation right there bro.Yes, so what do they mean? Anyone can interpret the scriptures. I've seen atheists interpret scriptures, I've seen muslims and those of other faiths and those of cults that say they are Christians. The Holy Spirit is the only One who reveals the Truth in the Bible.

So what do those verses mean with this verse taken into consideration?

Exodus 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Because as we know this is part of the 10 Commandments. And we know that God Himself wrote them.

Bladers
Dec 27th 2008, 03:53 PM
Yes, so what do they mean? Anyone can interpret the scriptures. I've seen atheists interpret scriptures, I've seen muslims and those of other faiths and those of cults that say they are Christians. The Holy Spirit is the only One who reveals the Truth in the Bible.

So what do those verses mean with this verse taken into consideration?

Exodus 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Because as we know this is part of the 10 Commandments. And we know that God Himself wrote them.

Concerning the scriptures i posted above, it means that Jesus is the Word and He was at the Beginning with God, and not only that but Jesus, God the Father, and The Holy Spirit created the heavens and the earth. For it says, "Let us"!


It means what it states; For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is.

Made = To make out of something that already existed! I'm not denying the six days.

Athanasius
Dec 27th 2008, 04:06 PM
My brother, your the only one not getting it. I mean, others think its the future and all. But you are trying to connect the passage with the whole book. No my brother, It is a prophetic book. You can not do that, one verse can be oftopic from the whole chapter. But what you are doing is to connect them. You can not connect them to make a point, nope. Its like your reading the chapter like a regular book from the store. No, each verse has deep insights.


What connection is Jeremiah 4:22, connected with 23? Verse 23 is so deep. No wonder you cant understand it.

Jeremiah 4:23 - I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

Beheld = ra'ah : means to have vision, to cause to see, to show.

He saw a vision. Now are you people telling me that God cant show someone a vision of the past? But its all over the scriptures.

Earth = 'erets: means whole earth (as opposed to a part)

Jeremiah 4:23 - I 'saw a vision' of the whole earth, and, lo, it was without form (wasteland), and void (waste); and the heavens (as abode of the stars), and they had no light [light of heavenly luminaries (moon, sun, stars)].

My brothers, He saw a vision of the earth, and it was a waste land, and he looked up and there were no sun, moon, or stars visible. The other verses confirms he wasnt on the ground but saw it from the sky(atmosphere).

It ends in verse 28. (because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it)
There is no if's or but's.

Pre-Adam Flood Again Shown here

Psalm 104:4-9

(4)Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

(5)Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.

(6)Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment(God's wrath): the waters stood above the mountains.

(7)At thy rebuke they fled; at the voice of thy thunder they hasted away(Gen 1:6-9).

(8)They go up by the mountains; they go down by the valleys unto the place which thou hast founded for them.

(9)Thou hast set a bound that they may not pass over; that they turn not again to cover the earth.

If you could actually answer my post instead of personally attacking me (and contradicting yourself in the process) I would appreciate it.

dljc
Dec 27th 2008, 04:07 PM
It means what it states; For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is.

Made = To make out of something that already existed!
Made -

G1096

γίνομαι

ginomai

ghin'-om-ahee

A prolonged and middle form of a primary verb; to cause to be (“gen” -erate), that is, (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literally, figuratively, intensively, etc.): - arise be assembled, be (come, -fall, -have self), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass), continue, be divided, be done, draw, be ended, fall, be finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled, + God forbid, grow, happen, have, be kept, be made, be married, be ordained to be, partake, pass, be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed, X soon as it was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrought.

So if God made all of this in six days, where do you get any "time" before God created Adam other than the five days before?

Bladers
Dec 27th 2008, 05:41 PM
If you could actually answer my post instead of personally attacking me (and contradicting yourself in the process) I would appreciate it.


Sorry if it seemed I attacked you, i was just directing to you because you were basically the only one that responded to my scriptures except divaD.


Thanks for all of your comments, I appreciate this discussion. I wanted to get inputs on these scriptures and many more that i did not get a chance to post.

Last response to dljc;
1) Made = from something
2) Form = from something
3) Create = from nothing.

Seems your the only one that does not understand, lol. <--------- Here i go again.:rofl: (NO OFFENSE-JUST J/K)

WAS = hayah (a primitive root [compare H1933])

1) to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen, fall out

a) (Qal)
a) to happen, fall out, occur, take place, come about, come to pass
b) to come about, come to pass
2) to come into being, become
a) to arise, appear, come
b) to become
1) to become
2) to become like
3) to be instituted, be established
4) to be

b) (Niphal)
1) to occur, come to pass, be done, be brought about
2) to be done, be finished, be gone

dljc
Dec 27th 2008, 06:47 PM
Bladers, one resorts to insults when they know they have lost the argument. They know at that point they are standing on sinking sand, and react from the flesh. The Truth is not swayed by my POV or yours, it remains the Truth. It is our choice of whether we accept it or not. But it still doesn't change the fact, it's the Truth.

What I see in your definitions is you have gone in one direction to prove your case, you aren't looking at the other definitions that contradict your position. I'm willing to consider all of the definitions to come to the conclusion of the Truth.

If you truly are in the Spirit then where is an insult listed in the fruit of the Spirit? You might want to read this: The Spirit vs. the flesh (http://bibleforums.org/blog.php?b=1117)

You have presented some doctrines in this thread, that aren't sound doctrine. All I've done is refuted those doctrines. Showing how you aren't taking everything in context and into consideration. You are arguing with God's Word, not me.

So answer me this. Did God just happen to find the earth in this universe or did He create it, by speaking it into existence, including the universe?

If I take a sign with an arrow on it, and point the arrow up does that mean I'm looking down the road, or is it just pointing up? If I turn that same sign upside down, am I looking at my feet, or is it pointing to the road behind me?

Bladers
Dec 27th 2008, 07:02 PM
Bladers, one resorts to insults when they know they have lost the argument. They know at that point they are standing on sinking sand, and react from the flesh. The Truth is not swayed by my POV or yours, it remains the Truth. It is our choice of whether we accept it or not. But it still doesn't change the fact, it's the Truth.

What I see in your definitions is you have gone in one direction to prove your case, you aren't looking at the other definitions that contradict your position. I'm willing to consider all of the definitions to come to the conclusion of the Truth.

If you truly are in the Spirit then where is an insult listed in the fruit of the Spirit? You might want to read this: The Spirit vs. the flesh (http://bibleforums.org/blog.php?b=1117)

You have presented some doctrines in this thread, that aren't sound doctrine. All I've done is refuted those doctrines. Showing how you aren't taking everything in context and into consideration. You are arguing with God's Word, not me.

So answer me this. Did God just happen to find the earth in this universe or did He create it, by speaking it into existence, including the universe?

If I take a sign with an arrow on it, and point the arrow up does that mean I'm looking down the road, or is it just pointing up? If I turn that same sign upside down, am I looking at my feet, or is it pointing to the road behind me?
One thing, if you had read my statement, you would know that i was joking. 2nd, I'm never arguing with any one. Third, I'm not answering any of your questions anymore because they partially make no sense. Why would God who always existed find the earth already created?

Fourth, Do you even know what j/k means? joking. I was playing with you and now i see how you reacted!

Fifth, You never refuted any thing. The only ones that did any real refuting was DivaD and Xel'Naga.

Sixth, This is not a doctrine, its a fact and truth. Not just scriptural evidence, but physical and scientific evidence.

CASE CLOSED

dljc
Dec 27th 2008, 07:33 PM
One thing, if you had read my statement, you would know that i was joking. 2nd, I'm never arguing with any one. Third, I'm not answering any of your questions anymore because they partially make no sense. Why would God who always existed find the earth already created?

Fourth, Do you even know what j/k means? joking. I was playing with you and now i see how you reacted!

Fifth, You never refuted any thing. The only ones that did any real refuting was DivaD and Xel'Naga.

Sixth, This is not a doctrine, its a fact and truth. Not just scriptural evidence, but physical and scientific evidence.

CASE CLOSED1. Oftentimes we use humor to hide behind. Through humor, our true feelings can come out, but there is that idea that it was said in humor, so we can dismiss it as such.
2. You've argued that that isn't what God's Word is saying. When in fact it's clear as a bell to anyone who reads it.
3. That's your choice, but think of the lesson you will miss. :(
4. See (1.)
5. Sometimes refutation can occur in few words. Just because we don't think it's worthy, doesn't make it any less. Jesus spoke in parables, they were short and to the point most of them.
6. If you say so. I trust that God knows how He did things, and it has been revealed in His Word. And through the Holy Spirit He will teach me as He has taught me up to this point.

Thanks for the discussion!

divaD
Dec 28th 2008, 12:27 AM
Also lets look here, When has this happened?

Isaiah 24:1 - Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth
abroad the inhabitants thereof.

The LORD GOD was so angry, He turned the earth up side down(LITERALLY)! WHEN? NOT SINCE ADAM? NOT
IN THE FUTURE? BEFORE ADAM!




Isaiah 24:15 Wherefore glorify ye the LORD in the fires, even the name of the LORD God of Israel in the isles of the sea

Isaiah 24:23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.



bladers, my friend, if we didn't know what earth age was being spoken of at the beginning of this chapter, we certainly do now. There was no Lord God of Israel, nor a Jerusalem in any earth age but this one. There is no way that verse 15 nor 23 describes anything but this earth age that we are crrently living in, which began at Genesis 1:1.


Isaiah 24:21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.


This is a key verse. Notice what it states: "And it shall come to pass in that day". This clearly means that this is a future prophecy, and not something that had already occured. Wow...this would make Isaiah a prophet. Who would have guessed?:)