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TransformedSon
Dec 28th 2008, 04:52 AM
There are fairly obvious questions, so I apologize if they've been posted on here before.

In Matthew, it says Jacob was the father of Joseph (father of Jesus) in verse 16.

In Luke, it says Joseph was the son of Eli.

How does that work? I know some people have said one of the genealogies is actually referring to Mary, but how do they get that from scripture?

I know there's some way this works out, I'm just having some trouble. Why the discrepancy between the two genealogies? I wonder why Luke and Matthew just didn't make them the same?

Also, if Jesus was supposed to spring from the "root of Jesse" as it was prophesied, the genealogy of Joseph is not really relevant because he wasn't actually his father, right?

Thank you for any responses!

matthew94
Dec 28th 2008, 05:43 AM
I am one who believes Luke is recording Mary's genealogy.

Why I believe Luke records Mary’s genealogy
--a. The phrase ‘so it was thought’ speaks to an exception
--b. Luke’s birth account tends to follow Mary’s perspective
--c. Jewish custom left off the mother’s name from a genealogy
--d. The original greek had no punctuation or parenthesis
--e. Even 1st century unbelievers believed Heli was Mary’s father
--f. Church tradition considers Heli to be Mary’s father
--g. Biological descendants of Jeconiah was cursed from kingship

If you want further explanation on why these issues point to it being Mary's genealogy, let me know.

TransformedSon
Dec 28th 2008, 05:43 AM
Because in Mathew, it doesn't say that Jacob was the father of Joseph. It says the Jacob begat Joseph. That is not the same as being the father of Joseph. That's why most everyone has the biblical calendar wrong. They think that because they see the word "begat" that it means a father-son relationship and that just isn't the case. On the contrary it usually means a further desendant. Like a great grandfather or great great great grandfather. You get the point.

In the book of Luke, the geneaology is a complete one and thus in that account Heli is the dad of Joseph.

The geneaology of Joseph is relevant because Joseph came from the line of Jesse. Read on in Luke 3:32 to see where it all ties in. It goes from Adam all the way to Jesus. I believe if I remember correctly that there are 77 generations from Adam to Jesus.

My bible says exactly "Jacob was the father of Joseph the husband of Mary".

Doesn't use the word "begat".

TransformedSon
Dec 28th 2008, 05:47 AM
I am one who believes Luke is recording Mary's genealogy.

Why I believe Luke records Mary’s genealogy
--a. The phrase ‘so it was thought’ speaks to an exception
--b. Luke’s birth account tends to follow Mary’s perspective
--c. Jewish custom left off the mother’s name from a genealogy
--d. The original greek had no punctuation or parenthesis
--e. Even 1st century unbelievers believed Heli was Mary’s father
--f. Church tradition considers Heli to be Mary’s father
--g. Biological descendants of Jeconiah was cursed from kingship

If you want further explanation on why these issues point to it being Mary's genealogy, let me know.

Thanks for the thoughts, Matthew. A few follow up questions/thoughts:

a) It says "When he began his ministry, Jesus himself was about thirty years of age, being, as was supposed, the son of Joseph". I don't see how that infers in any way to be talking about Mary.

b) Sure it does, but clearly the genealogy does not since it names Joseph and not Mary.

c) That might be a legit explanation, but if the bible is the true and perfect word of God, that would be an issue for me. Either Eli or Jacob was the father of Joseph, can't have it both ways.

d & e) Can you give me some citations for this?

Thanks!

Chimon
Dec 28th 2008, 08:06 AM
I agree with matthew94's interpretation. The phrase "the son of Heli" could also be translated "son-in-law of Heli" because in Hebrew culture, marriage created a binding parenthood of both sets of parents over both spouses. So, if Heli fathered Mary, and then Mary married Joseph, it would be absolutely acceptable to refer to Heli as Joseph's father.

This is also within the range of meaning of the Greek.

Furthermore, the geneaology is not compatable with the one in Matthew, because while it is possible that both skip generations, Luke's geneaology from David is through Nathan, whereas Matthew's is through Solomon straight through the line of wicked kings in the north to Jehoiachin, who God said would never have a descendent on the throne of David. If Jesus is Jehoiachin's heir, God is a liar.

So Jesus is in line to the throne of David through Mary, not Joseph.


Thanks for the thoughts, Matthew. A few follow up questions/thoughts:

a) It says "When he began his ministry, Jesus himself was about thirty years of age, being, as was supposed, the son of Joseph". I don't see how that infers in any way to be talking about Mary.

b) Sure it does, but clearly the genealogy does not since it names Joseph and not Mary.

c) That might be a legit explanation, but if the bible is the true and perfect word of God, that would be an issue for me. Either Eli or Jacob was the father of Joseph, can't have it both ways.

d & e) Can you give me some citations for this?

Thanks!

Zack702
Dec 28th 2008, 08:11 AM
I am one who believes Luke is recording Mary's genealogy.

Why I believe Luke records Mary’s genealogy
--a. The phrase ‘so it was thought’ speaks to an exception
--b. Luke’s birth account tends to follow Mary’s perspective
--c. Jewish custom left off the mother’s name from a genealogy
--d. The original greek had no punctuation or parenthesis
--e. Even 1st century unbelievers believed Heli was Mary’s father
--f. Church tradition considers Heli to be Mary’s father
--g. Biological descendants of Jeconiah was cursed from kingship

If you want further explanation on why these issues point to it being Mary's genealogy, let me know.

I agree Luke appears to be the genealogy of Mary.

Either way it is confusing somewhat and makes you think.
However without thinking to much we might agree that because Mary was Josephs wife that makes Joseph her fathers son (in-law).

Both Luke and Matthew are inline with one another up untill the son of David being in Luke Nathan's genealogy and in Matthew it is Solomon's genealogy.

Solomon's bloodline which is also recorded in Chronicles up untill the captivity of Babylon and the king Jehoahaz in Chronicles is written as Jechonias in Matthew.

I do not know of any record of Nathan's genealogy other than that written in Luke which points to that it was Mary's side but either way the genealogy was from Jeese.

Athanasius
Dec 28th 2008, 08:40 AM
Son in law of Heli, son of Jacob.

Firstfruits
Dec 28th 2008, 12:45 PM
Both geneoligies have different beginings, Matthew begins with Abraham, Luke begins at Adam.

This gives us, you could say, both sides of the coin, Mary and Josephs.

Firstfruits