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TransformedSon
Dec 28th 2008, 05:26 AM
Doesn't the judgment in Matthew 25:31-46 seem very predicated on works??

I understand the argument that if we are truly saved, then we will go out and do these works because we have the love of God, but what about Christians that do not go out and do these things? Or if they do, it's very rare?

Also, how do you define how "often" we're supposed to do these things? Once a year? Once a month? Once a week?

I'm sure the correct answer is that God will put it on our hearts. This judgment is just pretty strong and clear. I'm trying to figure out exactly how to digest it. :hmm:

Zack702
Dec 28th 2008, 05:36 AM
We ought to do this anytime it is available to do right?

45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

See there it says ye did it not to one of the least of these.
Making the least of these even of great importance.

Anytime someone is close to you and is in need give to them with thanks that God gave the opportunity.

We don't have to go out and do these things as a requirement at all. That would be like trying to purchase rewards in heaven. But we ought to do these things whenever they are available.

Biastai
Dec 28th 2008, 05:48 AM
Excellent question.

One thing to notice is that the passage may be originally directed to fellow believers aiding itinerant missionaries. If one observes the plights of the brothers, they resemble those commonly experienced by a persecuted travelling missionary. They are referred to as "one of the least of these brothers of mine." "Brother" is seen used commonly in the book of Acts as a term synonymous with "fellow believer."

According to the book of James, the truly live faith would produce such works. If they are lacking, the faith itself must be investigated and questioned if it is true enough to save the believer. You mentioned this argument in your post.

No one is able to determine objectively for someone else how often to do such things. If you yourself feel as if you should be doing more and are able, you should pray about it.

And always remember the purpose of the good deeds. It is a snare when one swells up with pride because they do them. Do these things so that "they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven." (Matthew 5:16)

TransformedSon
Dec 28th 2008, 05:49 AM
We ought to do this anytime it is available to do right?

45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

See there it says ye did it not to one of the least of these.
Making the least of these even of great importance.

Anytime someone is close to you and is in need give to them with thanks that God gave the opportunity.

We don't have to go out and do these things as a requirement at all. That would be like trying to purchase rewards in heaven. But we ought to do these things whenever they are available.

Thank you for the response. I really like the part I underlined and bolded. That's great advice.

TransformedSon
Dec 28th 2008, 05:50 AM
Excellent question.

One thing to notice is that the passage may be originally directed to fellow believers aiding itinerant missionaries. If one observes the plights of the brothers, they resemble those commonly experienced by a persecuted travelling missionary. They are referred to as "one of the least of these brothers of mine." "Brother" is seen used commonly in the book of Acts as a term synonymous with "fellow believer."

According to the book of James, the truly live faith would produce such works. If they are lacking, the faith itself must be investigated and questioned if it is true enough to save the believer. You mentioned this argument in your post.

No one is able to determine objectively for someone else how often to do such things. If you yourself feel as if you should be doing more and are able, you should pray about it.

And always remember the purpose of the good deeds. It is a snare when one swells up with pride because they do them. Do these things so that "they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven." (Matthew 5:16)

Thank you, great response. That last part is such an easy trap to fall in to. Something I have prayed about often.

threebigrocks
Dec 28th 2008, 06:28 AM
Works, or fruits, are a product of faith because of a desire to do that which is pleasing to God out of humility.

Grace, and faith, must come first apart from works. We can do nothing, Christ did it all.

Butch5
Dec 28th 2008, 06:34 AM
Doesn't the judgment in Matthew 25:31-46 seem very predicated on works??

I understand the argument that if we are truly saved, then we will go out and do these works because we have the love of God, but what about Christians that do not go out and do these things? Or if they do, it's very rare?

Also, how do you define how "often" we're supposed to do these things? Once a year? Once a month? Once a week?

I'm sure the correct answer is that God will put it on our hearts. This judgment is just pretty strong and clear. I'm trying to figure out exactly how to digest it. :hmm:

Hi Transformedson,

You are reading that correctly. We must do those works in order to be saved. Paul said we are justified by faith, when we initially believe, we are saved by faith, (place in a relationship with God). The actual salvation does not come until the judgment. Once we are in that relationship we are to do the works that God has prepared us for. As you saw in the Scriptures those who did the works were decleared righteous and those who didn't were declared unrighteous. Paul says the same thing in Romans 2,

Romans 2:2-10 ( KJV ) 2But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. 3And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? 4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Our actual salvation will come at the judgment, we must remain faithful and endure to the end, this includes doing thosee works. If we do, Jesus has promised us many things. If we don't He tells us what will happen.

threebigrocks
Dec 28th 2008, 06:45 AM
Our actual salvation will come at the judgment, we must remain faithful and endure to the end, this includes doing thosee works. If we do, Jesus has promised us many things. If we don't He tells us what will happen.

Faithfulness. It starts with faith. How can we tell anyones faithfulness? From an employee working for a company, husband to wife, friend to friend, to our family, to our children, from our children to us - it's proven through faithfulness. That must continue. It's like a wife being upset asking her husband why he doesn't show her he loves her anymore and his reply being I've shown you before, wasn't that enough?

Faith requires faithfulness.

crossnote
Dec 28th 2008, 06:50 AM
Doesn't the judgment in Matthew 25:31-46 seem very predicated on works??

I understand the argument that if we are truly saved, then we will go out and do these works because we have the love of God, but what about Christians that do not go out and do these things? Or if they do, it's very rare?

Also, how do you define how "often" we're supposed to do these things? Once a year? Once a month? Once a week?

I'm sure the correct answer is that God will put it on our hearts. This judgment is just pretty strong and clear. I'm trying to figure out exactly how to digest it. :hmm:

Two things we know. They were called to 'inherit' not 'merit' the kingdom
prepared for them from the foundation of the world.
2nd if we were to keep track of all our 'good deeds' we wouldn't be asking at the judgment, 'Lord when did we see the hungry etc'.
I think what is key here is that not only does the Lord disguise himself under the guise of lowliness so that we serve him unawares in serving others, but the deeds themselves go unnoticed as well even by those doing them.

Firstfruits
Dec 28th 2008, 12:53 PM
Two things we know. They were called to 'inherit' not 'merit' the kingdom
prepared for them from the foundation of the world.
2nd if we were to keep track of all our 'good deeds' we wouldn't be asking at the judgment, 'Lord when did we see the hungry etc'.
I think what is key here is that not only does the Lord disguise himself under the guise of lowliness so that we serve him unawares in serving others, but the deeds themselves go unnoticed as well even by those doing them.


What are the deeds/works that we shall be rewarded for?

Rev 20:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rev 20:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rev 21:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Rev 22:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Firstfruits

Sirus
Dec 28th 2008, 06:28 PM
Doesn't the judgment in Matthew 25:31-46 seem very predicated on works??
Yes.

Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened...........

Entrance to the kingdom of heaven is granted based on works. That is then. When? After....

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
............
Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

RoadWarrior
Dec 28th 2008, 06:48 PM
Doesn't the judgment in Matthew 25:31-46 seem very predicated on works??

I understand the argument that if we are truly saved, then we will go out and do these works because we have the love of God, but what about Christians that do not go out and do these things? Or if they do, it's very rare?

Also, how do you define how "often" we're supposed to do these things? Once a year? Once a month? Once a week?

I'm sure the correct answer is that God will put it on our hearts. This judgment is just pretty strong and clear. I'm trying to figure out exactly how to digest it. :hmm:

Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
NKJV

We are saved by grace, not by our faith. The grace comes to us through our faith. Grace is a gift from God. When we hear the gospel and believe it, we are acting on our faith. He gives, we accept and begin a new life. This is the beginning of relationship with God.

We are created in Christ Jesus to do good works. Our salvation, our relationship with Him, opens the door to a possibility of doing works that glorify Him.

We are to walk in these good works. The works have been prepared ahead of time, and we don't have to make them happen.

Walking in good works is about loving God 24/7, and doing whatever He puts on our pathway - loving and feeding the lambs and the sheep.

Matthew 25 spells out what these good works look llike.

Mt 25:35-40
35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.'
... 40 ..., 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'
NKJV

Do you know someone who is in need of one of these things? Go and do it. One of the easiest is to visit someone who is sick, or shut in. Old people especially are lonely and need a touch of kindness.

People come to this board who are hungry for the true teachings of the Word; they are thirsty for fellowship. Some feel cold and naked because they have no friends. We can minister to one another in the Name of Christ, right here on the board.

People come to Christians Answer who are in spiritual prison because they do not know Christ. We can minister to sincere seekers by praying for them, and writing messages to them that encourage and draw them to the Lord.

May the Lord bless you for seeking this answer.

JesusMySavior
Dec 29th 2008, 12:33 AM
Very nice topic.

This coincides with James 2 very nicely.


If we are Christ's, we will love like He has loved. We will help those who are in need and forgive people who have hurt us. These are the fruits and the works of the Spirit. Without these works, our faith is "dead" which means we are not being influenced and empowered by Jesus Christ who is our Teacher and Redeemer.

I always use the "Vine" example in John 15.


ďI am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=15&verse=1&end_verse=3&version=50&context=context#fen-NKJV-26696a)] and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.


If we are Christ's and are abiding in His "Vineship", we will bear fruit just as a fruit tree bears fruit as it abides in the root and the source. If we are not abiding in Him, we are useless for the Kingdom of God and need pruning. But for more clarification on THAT verse, read up on what a Vinedresser actually is and does...it might shed some more insight on the verse for you. :)

May God expand all of our knowledge and wisdom here who are in this thread and on this board to help us know Him better! :)

tt1106
Dec 29th 2008, 12:40 AM
I try to keep in mind that God changes hearts. There is n requirement to do works, as far as number. think of it as your nature. God wants you to seek perfection. Paul talks about controlling, even your thoughts. Jesus modeled the path to take. This is difficult, especially in affluent countries, but really we should be constantly looking for people to help and taking every opportunity that God gives us. Remember what he told the rich man, sell everything and give away the money and then "follow me". Jesus calls us all to be Christ centered and to represent Christ to people on a second by second basis, not on the third sunday fo the month.
I try to always remember that I am Christs ambassador to the unsaved. I certainly fall short, but my works are evidenced of my faith in a thousand different ways.
From my "Good morning" every morning, to my standing int he codl for an extra second to hold a door for someone. Works don't have to be classified by traditionally defined charity, such as, feeding the poor.

markedward
Dec 29th 2008, 03:11 AM
TransformedSon,

It's a good question. I brought it up a number of weeks ago, but I was not satisfied with most peoples' answers, because most people tended to say "Saved by grace not works!" and ignored the verses altogether.

Jesus (in the gospels), Paul in his epistles, and John in the Revelation each make statements that people will be judged "according to what they have done" or "according to their works". It's hard to simply sweep those under the rug.

JesusMySavior
Dec 29th 2008, 03:30 AM
TransformedSon,

It's a good question. I brought it up a number of weeks ago, but I was not satisfied with most peoples' answers, because most people tended to say "Saved by grace not works!" and ignored the verses altogether.

Jesus (in the gospels), Paul in his epistles, and John in the Revelation each make statements that people will be judged "according to what they have done" or "according to their works". It's hard to simply sweep those under the rug.


I've heard it said there will be two judgments, one for the saved and lost, and another for the saved which tests their works as in I Corinthians 3:13-15.

Those who are saved by grace will not be cast into hell, but the second judgment determines who is in charge of what and et-cetera.

That's the way i understand it, anyways.

TransformedSon
Dec 29th 2008, 04:47 AM
TransformedSon,

It's a good question. I brought it up a number of weeks ago, but I was not satisfied with most peoples' answers, because most people tended to say "Saved by grace not works!" and ignored the verses altogether.

Jesus (in the gospels), Paul in his epistles, and John in the Revelation each make statements that people will be judged "according to what they have done" or "according to their works". It's hard to simply sweep those under the rug.

Thanks for the thoughts Mark. That exact same phrasing appears in the OT a number of times also.

crossnote
Dec 29th 2008, 07:27 AM
What are the deeds/works that we shall be rewarded for?

Rev 20:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rev 20:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rev 21:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Rev 22:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Firstfruits


First of all the passages you quoted are speaking of the 'dead' which does not pertain to the christian. Did you notice no one passed that judgment, That is because apart from the righteousness of Christ we will be judged by our works and found wanting.
Our good works are not actually ours but rather the fruit which comes through abiding in Christ and resting in His Work of righteouness. Our good works come from this rest so that we do good out of thanksgiving and not in order to merit righteousness.

keck553
Dec 29th 2008, 04:39 PM
Let's see, the Hebrews were saved before they were given the Torah of Moses. Um, Abraham was saved before he was tested, to the point of sacrificing his son through whom God's promise was made.

What makes anyone think God doesn't hold each and everyone of of us who are saved to the same standards (obedience)?

Has anyone considered that profaning God's commands are 'works' too? They are works for the adversary.

Veretax
Dec 30th 2008, 04:44 PM
Doesn't the judgment in Matthew 25:31-46 seem very predicated on works??

I understand the argument that if we are truly saved, then we will go out and do these works because we have the love of God, but what about Christians that do not go out and do these things? Or if they do, it's very rare?

Also, how do you define how "often" we're supposed to do these things? Once a year? Once a month? Once a week?

I'm sure the correct answer is that God will put it on our hearts. This judgment is just pretty strong and clear. I'm trying to figure out exactly how to digest it. :hmm:

Who are those who are Christians? Ultimately, is it they that claim Christ's name, even profess faith? Or those who show their faith in action? James epistle seems to indicate that our faith is shown by our works. Without them I'm of the belief that many of us would believe that certain folks are not believers because they do not walk rightly.

However, it is not works that save, but faith unto salvation is demonstrated by works.

Firstfruits
Dec 30th 2008, 04:48 PM
Who are those who are Christians? Ultimately, is it they that claim Christ's name, even profess faith? Or those who show their faith in action? James epistle seems to indicate that our faith is shown by our works. Without them I'm of the belief that many of us would believe that certain folks are not believers because they do not walk rightly.

However, it is not works that save, but faith unto salvation is demonstrated by works.

We have to remember that we are truly not saved by works but that our salvation is shown by our works.

Firstfruits

Butch5
Dec 30th 2008, 11:52 PM
I've heard it said there will be two judgments, one for the saved and lost, and another for the saved which tests their works as in I Corinthians 3:13-15.

Those who are saved by grace will not be cast into hell, but the second judgment determines who is in charge of what and et-cetera.

That's the way i understand it, anyways.


Hi JMS,

The verses in 1 Corinthians 3 are speaking of teachers in the church.

Butch5
Dec 30th 2008, 11:54 PM
We have to remember that we are truly not saved by works but that our salvation is shown by our works.

Firstfruits

Hi FF,

We also should define works.

My heart's Desire
Dec 31st 2008, 05:25 AM
Doesn't the judgment in Matthew 25:31-46 seem very predicated on works??

I understand the argument that if we are truly saved, then we will go out and do these works because we have the love of God, but what about Christians that do not go out and do these things? Or if they do, it's very rare?

Also, how do you define how "often" we're supposed to do these things? Once a year? Once a month? Once a week?

I'm sure the correct answer is that God will put it on our hearts. This judgment is just pretty strong and clear. I'm trying to figure out exactly how to digest it. :hmm:I believe Matt 25 describes a different time frame and is not the Church. I think there should not be a "but" behind saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Anything after a "but" would mean we also think we have to do something to deserve grace and one cannot deserve grace which is unmerited favor. If we have to ask how often we are to "do things" doesn't that make the "things" an obligation and if an obligation as far as salvation and judgment is concerned then it is no longer grace?

Firstfruits
Dec 31st 2008, 09:01 AM
First of all the passages you quoted are speaking of the 'dead' which does not pertain to the christian. Did you notice no one passed that judgment, That is because apart from the righteousness of Christ we will be judged by our works and found wanting.
Our good works are not actually ours but rather the fruit which comes through abiding in Christ and resting in His Work of righteouness. Our good works come from this rest so that we do good out of thanksgiving and not in order to merit righteousness.

Do the works we have done in our live not remain with us until judgment when as Jesus said; Rev 22:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Do you not expect to be rewarded for your deeds/works?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Dec 31st 2008, 09:04 AM
I believe Matt 25 describes a different time frame and is not the Church. I think there should not be a "but" behind saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Anything after a "but" would mean we also think we have to do something to deserve grace and one cannot deserve grace which is unmerited favor. If we have to ask how often we are to "do things" doesn't that make the "things" an obligation and if an obligation as far as salvation and judgment is concerned then it is no longer grace?

With regards to "time frame" who is exempt from the following?

Rev 22:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Dec 31st 2008, 09:10 AM
Hi FF,

We also should define works.

This I hope should give us some guidance.

Colossians 3:5-14

5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Butch5
Dec 31st 2008, 03:32 PM
This I hope should give us some guidance.

Colossians 3:5-14

5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

I agree, these are the works we must do to be saved.

Firstfruits
Dec 31st 2008, 04:00 PM
I agree, these are the works we must do to be saved.

Can I just modify that by saying "to show that we are saved"?

Firstfruits

timmyb
Dec 31st 2008, 11:52 PM
This I hope should give us some guidance.

Colossians 3:5-14

5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

well... here's my two cents on the matter... we are saved by grace through faith which is the gift of God (Eph 2:8) but faith without works is dead (Jas 2:26)... faith produces works ex. Hebrews 11 by faith Abraham... by faith (name biblical hero) did (name great work according to who you named) So, it's a triangle that would be incomplete without the other part... saved by grace through faith which produces the work which you cannot do apart from God's grace... So we aren't saved by works, we're saved by faith but the faith in us produces good works... similar to the seed of God planted in us by his spirit and as we cultivate fellowship with God as we behold him and his spirit within us, we are made more like him (2 Cor 3:18)

I can ramble on and on about this and there are going to be questions regarding my view on this... My view on this is very simple and to the point... and to read too much into it is to me a distraction from the beauty of the gospel...

Butch5
Jan 1st 2009, 02:31 AM
Can I just modify that by saying "to show that we are saved"?

Firstfruits

Hi FF,

You can, but I won't.

BroRog
Jan 1st 2009, 03:19 AM
Doesn't the judgment in Matthew 25:31-46 seem very predicated on works??

I understand the argument that if we are truly saved, then we will go out and do these works because we have the love of God, but what about Christians that do not go out and do these things? Or if they do, it's very rare?

Also, how do you define how "often" we're supposed to do these things? Once a year? Once a month? Once a week?

I'm sure the correct answer is that God will put it on our hearts. This judgment is just pretty strong and clear. I'm trying to figure out exactly how to digest it. :hmm:

We inherited this slogan from the time of the Reformation: "salvation by faith alone." But we must remember the issue that informs this slogan. If its a question of merit, then we know that we can do nothing to merit salvation. In fact, the Bible teaches us that salvation is a free gift, given to us without cost. So we are justified by faith apart from our works.

That is on the one hand. On the other hand, if its a question of whether we have faith or not, our works give us opportunity to objectify our faith for all to see. We do what we can based on what we believe.

For instance, if I believed that an H-bomb was going to drop on our city tonight, you would be right to ask me why I haven't left town yet. If I REALLY believed such a thing, I would take action to avoid being killed and I would try to convince others of the danger. To leave town is a "deed" or a "work" that gives credence to my belief that the H-Bomb is coming.

In Matthew 25, its important to keep in mind the audacious claim that Jesus has made. He claims that one's personal destiny depends directly on how we treat him personally, not humanity in general. By extension, how we treat his disciples is how we treat him. To persecute his disciples is to persecute him; to show kindness to one of his disciples is to show kindness to him.

It's not a question of whether or not I am willing to give another person a drink of water. It's a question of whether I am willing to give one of his disciples a drink of water? If some stranger comes to the door asking for a drink of water, most people will give him one. But if a Christian comes to the door asking for a drink of water, some people would think twice about it.

That is, any man who hates God, and hates Jesus will certainly hate his followers. They will work against them and even deny them basic human needs. Under those conditions, the world will be divided up into two groups, those who hated Jesus and hated his followers. And those who didn't hate Jesus or his followers.

BroRog
Jan 1st 2009, 03:22 AM
well... here's my two cents on the matter... we are saved by grace through faith which is the gift of God (Eph 2:8) but faith without works is dead (Jas 2:26)... faith produces works ex. Hebrews 11 by faith Abraham... by faith (name biblical hero) did (name great work according to who you named) So, it's a triangle that would be incomplete without the other part... saved by grace through faith which produces the work which you cannot do apart from God's grace... So we aren't saved by works, we're saved by faith but the faith in us produces good works... similar to the seed of God planted in us by his spirit and as we cultivate fellowship with God as we behold him and his spirit within us, we are made more like him (2 Cor 3:18)

I can ramble on and on about this and there are going to be questions regarding my view on this... My view on this is very simple and to the point... and to read too much into it is to me a distraction from the beauty of the gospel...

Well said, even if short and to the point.

Sirus
Jan 1st 2009, 05:00 AM
In Matthew 25, its important to keep in mind the audacious claim that Jesus has made. He claims that one's personal destiny depends directly on how we treat him personally, not humanity in general. By extension, how we treat his disciples is how we treat him. To persecute his disciples is to persecute him; to show kindness to one of his disciples is to show kindness to him.

It's not a question of whether or not I am willing to give another person a drink of water. It's a question of whether I am willing to give one of his disciples a drink of water? If some stranger comes to the door asking for a drink of water, most people will give him one. But if a Christian comes to the door asking for a drink of water, some people would think twice about it.

That is, any man who hates God, and hates Jesus will certainly hate his followers. They will work against them and even deny them basic human needs. Under those conditions, the world will be divided up into two groups, those who hated Jesus and hated his followers. And those who didn't hate Jesus or his followers.Those that did, did not know they did it to God or His brethren. It clearly says that.

Mat 25:37-40 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Its important to keep in mind what it actually says.

Firstfruits
Jan 1st 2009, 03:23 PM
Hi FF,

You can, but I won't.

Scripture does not say that we are saved by works;

Rom 8:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Eph 2:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Works are what we do of ourselves, whether of righteousness or unrighteousness.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

BroRog
Jan 1st 2009, 04:57 PM
Those that did, did not know they did it to God or His brethren. It clearly says that.

Mat 25:37-40 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Its important to keep in mind what it actually says.

It's a funny thing. Though the righteous give that answer, in fact, since we are all familiar with the account we indeed recognize the association between Jesus and his disciples.

Sirus
Jan 1st 2009, 06:11 PM
First of all it says 'brethren' not disciples. One of the definitions of that word is bloodline/flesh/kinsmen. You have injected disciple into it but the word is not found in the text. Chapter 25 is after chapter 24 when the trumpet sounds and the angels gather the elect/one in the field is taken and another left at the sign of the Son of man in heaven. Then shall the kingdom of heaven be......chapter 25. Everything in that chapter has to be read and understood under "then", not now. Then will be great persecution and execution of those that follow Messiah and preach 'the gospel of "the kingdom"'. Like in WWII many will not approve of the persecution and genocide of Israel and will help them and show kindness to them.

Secondly, those on his left say the very same thing the righteous on his right did. They are righteous based on their works and they are entering the kingdom of heaven (not God) prepared for the righteous from the foundation of the world. Where else do we see this concept of entering the kingdom of heaven based on ones own righteousness?

Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

In Mat 25 the elect has already been gathered. At the harvest of the kingdom of God there is no separating of wheat and tares. Without the Spirit you are not His. The Lord knows who are His, and of His flesh and bones. That is never in question.
-Mar 4:26-29 And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground; And should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how. For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear. But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come.


In the kingdom of heaven parallel parable there are tares sown by the enemy that just showed up and at the time of harvest the reapers separate.
-Mat 13:24-30 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

BroRog
Jan 1st 2009, 07:53 PM
First of all it says 'brethren' not disciples. One of the definitions of that word is bloodline/flesh/kinsmen. You have injected disciple into it but the word is not found in the text.

Yes, I realize that "brethren" typically speaks of bloodline or kinsmen. However, by this time Jesus had made it clear that his "brethren", i.e. his brothers, sisters, and mother are those who hear his words and affirm them.

And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, "Behold My mother and My brothers!
Matthew 12:49

This is consistent with his earlier teaching concerning how the world will treat his disciples. He closely associates the world's hatred of his disciples with the world's hatred of him in passage like the following.

If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you. John 15:19

Butch5
Jan 1st 2009, 08:09 PM
Scripture does not say that we are saved by works;

Rom 8:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Eph 2:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Works are what we do of ourselves, whether of righteousness or unrighteousness.

God bless you!

Firstfruits


Hi FF,

The works spoken of in Eph. 2:8 are works of the law. When we are initially saved (placed in relationship with Christ) it is by faith. We are not ultimately saved until the resurrection. Look at the very verses being spoken of in this thread. Matthew 25, those who took care of the hungry sick, poor, and naked, were declared righteous. Those who did not were declared unrighteous and condemned to hell. Their destination is directly linked to their works. If our destination is directly linked to our works, how can it be that we are not saved by works?

Partaker of Christ
Jan 1st 2009, 08:47 PM
I believe that these passages help us to understand Matthew 25:

"he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward."


Matt 10:40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Matt 10:41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.
Matt 10:42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.


Mark 9:38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
Mark 9:39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
Mark 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

Mark 9:41 For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.

reformedct
Jan 1st 2009, 10:18 PM
Doesn't the judgment in Matthew 25:31-46 seem very predicated on works??

I understand the argument that if we are truly saved, then we will go out and do these works because we have the love of God, but what about Christians that do not go out and do these things? Or if they do, it's very rare?

Also, how do you define how "often" we're supposed to do these things? Once a year? Once a month? Once a week?

I'm sure the correct answer is that God will put it on our hearts. This judgment is just pretty strong and clear. I'm trying to figure out exactly how to digest it. :hmm:

it is my understanding that true faith produces works. The works do not save, they are evidence of true faith. The body of Christ is made up of those who have saving faith and a heart that is moved to action.

So when you see parables about works, keep in mind all other Scriptures, such as being justified by faith not works. Works are grown out of genuine faith. The works dont save, they are evidence

Sirus
Jan 1st 2009, 11:47 PM
I believe that these passages help us to understand Matthew 25:

"he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward."


Matt 10:40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Matt 10:41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.
Matt 10:42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.


Mark 9:38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
Mark 9:39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
Mark 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

Mark 9:41 For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward. This is consistent, affirming, and exactly right! They do not cause us to change the text of Mat 25 or make any assumptions. Thank you for posting these!

Sirus
Jan 1st 2009, 11:57 PM
Yes, I realize that "brethren" typically speaks of bloodline or kinsmen. However, by this time Jesus had made it clear that his "brethren", i.e. his brothers, sisters, and mother are those who hear his words and affirm them.

And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, "Behold My mother and My brothers!
Matthew 12:49

This is consistent with his earlier teaching concerning how the world will treat his disciples. He closely associates the world's hatred of his disciples with the world's hatred of him in passage like the following.

If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you. John 15:19Right. The righteous in Mat 25 did the will of God to His brethren, did they not? They are not aware of the deeper truths Jesus taught 'by that time' else they would have understood they did it to God when they did it to His brethren. You are only helping my point. Again, 'then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened to'......
You are applying truths students of the word know and understand now. Now is not then. Then is after Mat 24. Why didn't these individuals understand it all ready? If this is the church as so many claim, they were already glorified, and if glorified they would know as they are known, and understand, would they not? They wouldn't be seeing an obscured reflection in heavy glass (darkly) and asking 'when did we do it to you?

BroRog
Jan 2nd 2009, 06:48 AM
Right. The righteous in Mat 25 did the will of God to His brethren, did they not? They are not aware of the deeper truths Jesus taught 'by that time' else they would have understood they did it to God when they did it to His brethren. You are only helping my point. Again, 'then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened to'......
You are applying truths students of the word know and understand now. Now is not then. Then is after Mat 24. Why didn't these individuals understand it all ready? If this is the church as so many claim, they were already glorified, and if glorified they would know as they are known, and understand, would they not? They wouldn't be seeing an obscured reflection in heavy glass (darkly) and asking 'when did we do it to you?

I'm just not inclined to read that much into it.

Firstfruits
Jan 2nd 2009, 08:46 AM
Hi FF,

The works spoken of in Eph. 2:8 are works of the law. When we are initially saved (placed in relationship with Christ) it is by faith. We are not ultimately saved until the resurrection. Look at the very verses being spoken of in this thread. Matthew 25, those who took care of the hungry sick, poor, and naked, were declared righteous. Those who did not were declared unrighteous and condemned to hell. Their destination is directly linked to their works. If our destination is directly linked to our works, how can it be that we are not saved by works?

It depends on how you see this scripture;

Rom 4:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Sirus
Jan 2nd 2009, 05:44 PM
I'm just not inclined to read that much into it.What did I read into it? Name one! It is exactly what it says. You inject disciples and the church into, neither of which makes any sense at all.

Butch5
Jan 2nd 2009, 06:40 PM
It depends on how you see this scripture;

Rom 4:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Why does this Scripture determine what Matthew 25 means?

Romans 4:5 is speaking of the works of the law. Start reading in Romans 3:19. Paul is contrasting the works of the law with grace, all the way to the end of the chapter. Then he begins chapter 4 with "what shall we say then", in other words, what shall we say of Abraham, in regard to what has just been said (Romans 3:19-31)? What shall we say of Abraham, in regard to this contrast of the works of the law and Grace? So, in verse 5 it is referring to, 'him that worketh not (the works of the law)'. There is nothing in the context of this passage that is referring to the works that Jesus describes in Matthew 25.

Firstfruits
Jan 2nd 2009, 08:14 PM
Why does this Scripture determine what Matthew 25 means?

Romans 4:5 is speaking of the works of the law. Start reading in Romans 3:19. Paul is contrasting the works of the law with grace, all the way to the end of the chapter. Then he begins chapter 4 with "what shall we say then", in other words, what shall we say of Abraham, in regard to what has just been said (Romans 3:19-31)? What shall we say of Abraham, in regard to this contrast of the works of the law and Grace? So, in verse 5 it is referring to, 'him that worketh not (the works of the law)'. There is nothing in the context of this passage that is referring to the works that Jesus describes in Matthew 25.

It is saying that we are not saved by works, whereas Matthew 25 tells us we are not saved to do nothing and that we must show our works that accompany salvation;

Heb 6:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
Heb 6:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

Our works accompany salvation.

Firstfruits

John146
Jan 2nd 2009, 09:43 PM
I believe Matt 25 describes a different time frame and is not the Church. I think there should not be a "but" behind saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Anything after a "but" would mean we also think we have to do something to deserve grace and one cannot deserve grace which is unmerited favor. If we have to ask how often we are to "do things" doesn't that make the "things" an obligation and if an obligation as far as salvation and judgment is concerned then it is no longer grace?What time frame are you talking about? The time frame is established right off the bat in verse 31 as being at the time when the Lord returns with His angels. The sheep are referred to as "the righteous" in verse 37. If that isn't the Church then who is it?

Butch5
Jan 2nd 2009, 10:19 PM
It is saying that we are not saved by works, whereas Matthew 25 tells us we are not saved to do nothing and that we must show our works that accompany salvation;

Heb 6:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
Heb 6:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

Our works accompany salvation.

Firstfruits

Romans 4:5 is saying we are not saved by the works of the law. How can our works be directly related to our destiny and not be how we are saved?

Jesus said those who did ministered to the sick, the naked, etc. will go into eternal life, those who didn't will go into eternal damnation. The judgment is based on what we do, how can we say we are not saved by works? This is not the only place that this is stated, Paul (the one who said we are not saved by works) says the same thing.

Romans 2:3-10 ( KJV ) 3And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? 4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Paul clearly states, God will judge everyone according to their deeds, those who continue in well doing eternal life. Those who don't indignation and wrath. Again, this is a clear statement, with the connection of good works and eternal life, Just as Jesus said in Matthew 25. There is also Jesus statement in John 5,

John 5:27-29 ( KJV ) 27And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Again the judgment, and good works tied to eternal life. The statement is crystal clear.

John says the same thing again,

Revelation 20:12-13 ( KJV ) 12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Clearly our destiny is based on our works. So, when Paul says we are not saved by works, I think we need to investigate exactly what that means. Most of Paul's writings are dealing with the works of the law, which is evident when they are taken in context. I mean Paul himself said that God will judge everyone according to their deeds, that is a clear statement. I believe it is imperative that we distinguish between these works. I agree that the works themselves don't save us (in other words, if God didn't save, it wouldn't matter if we did the works). It is God that saves us. However if we don't do the works then we will not be saved, therefore salvation is dependent on our works.

quiet dove
Jan 3rd 2009, 01:49 AM
Paul clearly states, God will judge everyone according to their deeds, those who continue in well doing eternal life. Those who don't indignation and wrath. Again, this is a clear statement, with the connection of good works and eternal life, Just as Jesus said in Matthew 25. There is also Jesus statement in John 5,

Clearly our destiny is based on our works. So, when Paul says we are not saved by works, I think we need to investigate exactly what that means. Most of Paul's writings are dealing with the works of the law, which is evident when they are taken in context. I mean Paul himself said that God will judge everyone according to their deeds, that is a clear statement. I believe it is imperative that we distinguish between these works. I agree that the works themselves don't save us (in other words, if God didn't save, it wouldn't matter if we did the works). It is God that saves us. However if we don't do the works then we will not be saved, therefore salvation is dependent on our works.

I disagree
1Co 3:15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

As has been stated, we are only saved through being in Christ Jesus, our works should be a reflection of that salvation. Our works should be done in dependence on the Spirit, the Spirit we are indwelt with upon believing. Works we do of our own ability will burn up, only what is done in the power and ability of the Spirit will not burn, thus one must be saved in the first place to do the works of and in the Spirit.

Yukerboy
Jan 3rd 2009, 02:00 AM
However if we don't do the works then we will not be saved, therefore salvation is dependent on our works.

While I disagree with Butch for the most part, there is merit to what he says.

Works are a direct result of faith. Faith without works is a dead faith.

But what must be realized is love is a work. Love one another is the work that fulfills the law. If you have true saving faith, you will fulfill the law through this work. It is a result of the faith you have in Christ.

Butch5
Jan 3rd 2009, 02:12 AM
I disagree
1Co 3:15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

As has been stated, we are only saved through being in Christ Jesus, our works should be a reflection of that salvation. Our works should be done in dependence on the Spirit, the Spirit we are indwelt with upon believing. Works we do of our own ability will burn up, only what is done in the power and ability of the Spirit will not burn, thus one must be saved in the first place to do the works of and in the Spirit.

Hi Dove,

First, the verse you quoted from 1 Cor. is speaking of teachers in the church, not the average Christian.

Regarding the works I am speaking of our final or ultimates salvation at the judgment. I am not speaking of initial salvation where we are place into relationship with Christ.

quiet dove
Jan 3rd 2009, 02:39 AM
Hi Dove,

First, the verse you quoted from 1 Cor. is speaking of teachers in the church, not the average Christian.

Regarding the works I am speaking of our final or ultimates salvation at the judgment. I am not speaking of initial salvation where we are place into relationship with Christ.

No my brother it is not, it is speaking about each and everyone of us.:hug:
Lets pick up from the previous verses and notice the word "anyone" :)
1Co 3:11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.


We are either saved and in relationship with Christ or not. I am not less saved now than I will be then. I am just as saved now as I will be then. We, as believers are already in Christ Jesus, the Father already sees us as His, as His children.

I am not speaking of initial salvation, because there is only one time of initial and made His. In other words, yes I/we will be getting a new body, be resurrected immortal and incorruptible, then what we hope for will be seen. But we are no less His and no less saved right now, at present. What we hope for in the new bodys is hope in Christ, and there fore as good as done, we know it will happen, it is what those who already have salvation trust to receive and will receive because of the One who promises, Christ Jesus. It's a done deal when one is in Christ Jesus, we are His. There is no more salvation, as in being saved from the Judgment of God the Father to come, we are saved, we have salvation.

Yukerboy
Jan 3rd 2009, 02:54 AM
I am not speaking of initial salvation, because there is only one time of initial and made His. In other words, yes I/we will be getting a new body, be resurrected immortal and incorruptible, then what we hope for will be seen. But we are no less His and no less saved right now, at present. What we hope for in the new bodys is hope in Christ, and there fore as good as done, we know it will happen, it is what those who already have salvation trust to receive and will receive because of the One who promises, Christ Jesus. It's a done deal when one is in Christ Jesus, we are His. There is no more salvation, as in being saved from the Judgment of God the Father to come, we are saved, we have salvation.

Those who are born again will be saved from God's wrath and condemnation, but are currently saved from their sins.

Butch5
Jan 3rd 2009, 03:27 AM
Dove---No my brother it is not, it is speaking about each and everyone of us.:hug:
Lets pick up from the previous verses and notice the word "anyone" :)
1Co 3:11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.


Let's go back even further,

1 Corinthians 3:5-15 ( KJV ) 5Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. 8Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one:


OK, Paul planted the Church at Corinth, and Apollos came afterward, he watered the church.



and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. 9For we are labourers together with God:


OK, Paul says every man shall receive his own reward for his own labor. However, notice who the laborers are, Paul, Apollos, and God. They are the ones who labored to planted and grow the church at Corinth. As he said, Paul planted, Apollos watered, and God gave the increase.



ye are Godís husbandry, ye are Godís building. 10According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon.


Now Paul uses the metaphor of a building, notice Paul is the master builder, he laid the foundation (he planted) and another built on that foundation, Apollos, (he watered)


But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.


Let every man take heed how he builds on the foundation that Paul laid, that is building of the church at Corinth.


11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13Every manís work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every manís work of what sort it is. 14If any manís work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15If any manís work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.




If any man builds on this foundation that Paul has laid (the Church in Corinth) His work will be tried. If it is precious metal it will survive the trial and he will be rewarded. If his work is hay, stubble, and wood, it will not survive the fire and will be burned up, yet he will be saved.

In context, we see Paul is talking about the church at Corinth. Now this probably can be applied to teachers in all churches, however, this specific event refers the church at Corinth. The issue here was that those in the church were divided and some where trying to lift themselves above the others, some were saying, I am of Paul or I am of Apollos. Paul is telling them, it doesn't matter who ministered to you, we are on the same team we just have different positions (planting and watering).




Dove---We are either saved and in relationship with Christ or not. I am not less saved now than I will be then. I am just as saved now as I will be then. We, as believers are already in Christ Jesus, the Father already sees us as His, as His children.

Thst is correct, however we must remain in him until death.


Dove---I am not speaking of initial salvation, because there is only one time of initial and made His. In other words, yes I/we will be getting a new body, be resurrected immortal and incorruptible, then what we hope for will be seen. But we are no less His and no less saved right now, at present. What we hope for in the new bodys is hope in Christ, and there fore as good as done, we know it will happen, it is what those who already have salvation trust to receive and will receive because of the One who promises, Christ Jesus. It's a done deal when one is in Christ Jesus, we are His. There is no more salvation, as in being saved from the Judgment of God the Father to come, we are saved, we have salvation.

There is no guarantee, that we will endure to the end.

Yukerboy
Jan 3rd 2009, 03:38 AM
There is no guarantee, that we will endure to the end.

The born again:

Stand firm to the end (Matthew 24:13, Mark 13:13)
Will not perish (John 3:16, 10:28)
Made to stand for God by Jesus (Romans 14:4)
Are given endurance from God (Romans 15:5)
Are kept strong to the end by Christ (1 Corinthians 1:8)
Will be kept blameless until the day of the Lord (1 Corinthians 1:8)
Made to stand firm in Christ by God (2 Corinthians 1:21)
Stand firm by faith (2 Corinthians 1:24)

Now, if you are to say there is no guarantee we are born again, that I couldn't argue.

However, all those who are born again will do the above.

quiet dove
Jan 3rd 2009, 04:32 AM
Let's go back even further,

1 Corinthians 3:5-15 ( KJV ) 5Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. 8Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one:


OK, Paul planted the Church at Corinth, and Apollos came afterward, he watered the church.


But the context does not exclude any that are in Christ, all in Christ are or will serve Him in some way, or should desire to do so. Those who don't may not have any works to burn up, but they will have not works that don' either.

If we are in Christ, as we submit to the Spirit, fruit of the Spirit (works) will come from that.

The Corinthian church was divided in the I am of Paul and I am of Apollos, the lesson is that Paul and Apollos were both of Christ, so there was no "one of this one or that one" we are all of Christ.

How can something like this be true of only teachers? All men are sinners, all who are saved are saved by Grace. All are indwelt with the same Spirit. But some, that are not teachers, are saved by work? How does that make logical sense?

The scripture says that the fruit of the Spirit, the result of being saved is good works, that includes all believers.

Butch5
Jan 3rd 2009, 04:50 AM
But the context does not exclude any that are in Christ, all in Christ are or will serve Him in some way, or should desire to do so. Those who don't may not have any works to burn up, but they will have not works that don' either.

If we are in Christ, as we submit to the Spirit, fruit of the Spirit (works) will come from that.

The Corinthian church was divided in the I am of Paul and I am of Apollos, the lesson is that Paul and Apollos were both of Christ, so there was no "one of this one or that one" we are all of Christ.

How can something like this be true of only teachers? All men are sinners, all who are saved are saved by Grace. All are indwelt with the same Spirit. But some, that are not teachers, are saved by work? How does that make logical sense?

The scripture says that the fruit of the Spirit, the result of being saved is good works, that includes all believers.

But the context of what Paul is saying is in regard to the building of the Church at Corinth. We can't just apply this principle generally. However, regarding teachers consider what James says also,


James 3:1 ( KJV ) 1My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.

The word master is also translated teacher. This is right in line with what Paul says in 1 Cor.

Butch5
Jan 3rd 2009, 04:52 AM
The born again:

Stand firm to the end (Matthew 24:13, Mark 13:13)
Will not perish (John 3:16, 10:28)
Made to stand for God by Jesus (Romans 14:4)
Are given endurance from God (Romans 15:5)
Are kept strong to the end by Christ (1 Corinthians 1:8)
Will be kept blameless until the day of the Lord (1 Corinthians 1:8)
Made to stand firm in Christ by God (2 Corinthians 1:21)
Stand firm by faith (2 Corinthians 1:24)

Now, if you are to say there is no guarantee we are born again, that I couldn't argue.

However, all those who are born again will do the above.

We've been over this, those verses speak of he one who "is believing", if one is no longer believing they no longer apply

quiet dove
Jan 3rd 2009, 04:55 AM
But the context of what Paul is saying is in regard to the building of the Church at Corinth. We can't just apply this principle generally. However, regarding teachers consider what James says also,


James 3:1 ( KJV ) 1My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.

The word master is also translated teacher. This is right in line with what Paul says in 1 Cor.

The whole Bible was written to someone other than us in terms of the destination address. But all that is taught is there by God's design to teach us, if the principles, lessons and truths do not apply to us, what to we have to teach us about God and His will?

Teachers receive stricter judgment because they have stricker responsibility. Now I don't consider myself a teacher really, but if I am going to sit here and tell you the Bible says this or that, I better be ready to be held accountable for whatever I say. And that is what this teaches, those who are teachers are responsible for what they teach.

Yukerboy
Jan 3rd 2009, 05:09 AM
We've been over this, those verses speak of he one who "is believing", if one is no longer believing they no longer apply

And one who is born again believes. If one does not believe, he is not born again. But once one is born again, he belongs to God's family forever and will continue to believe.

Yuke

Butch5
Jan 3rd 2009, 05:25 AM
The whole Bible was written to someone other than us in terms of the destination address. But all that is taught is there by God's design to teach us, if the principles, lessons and truths do not apply to us, what to we have to teach us about God and His will?

Teachers receive stricter judgment because they have stricker responsibility. Now I don't consider myself a teacher really, but if I am going to sit here and tell you the Bible says this or that, I better be ready to be held accountable for whatever I say. And that is what this teaches, those who are teachers are responsible for what they teach.

Exactly, Paul was making reference to the founding of the church at Corinth, He specifically names himself and Apollos, I a m not sure that this is a principle that Paul was teaching the church, I think it may have been specifically directed at the Corinthians. In other words, what authority do we have to apply this elsewhere?

BroRog
Jan 4th 2009, 01:03 AM
What did I read into it? Name one! It is exactly what it says. You inject disciples and the church into, neither of which makes any sense at all.

You are saying that Jesus is not talking about disciples or the church because
he closely associates treatment of his brethren as treatment of him, which is something the disciples should already know.

Since the righteous ask, "when did we ever see you thirsty, etc.?", these righteous do not represent his disciples because his disciples should already know the answer.

Nonetheless, as I pointed out earlier, the main point is simple. How we treat Jesus in this life will be a major condition for our eternal destiny. Then, by extension, Jesus equates our treatment of his "brethren" with how we treat him. The remaining issue is to identify the "brethren", to which he answers elsewhere that his "mother" and his "brothers" are his disciples.

Whatever else we say about this passage, we can not deny the core idea.

My heart's Desire
Jan 4th 2009, 03:55 AM
We've been over this, those verses speak of he one who "is believing", if one is no longer believing they no longer applyBy this it looks as if one is putting a confidence in the flesh of the one who believes or stops believing and so more or less taking salvation out of the Lord's hand and putting it in the hand of man. Can man save himself? The answer is clearly no.

Sirus
Jan 4th 2009, 07:37 AM
You are saying that Jesus is not talking about disciples or the church because
he closely associates treatment of his brethren as treatment of him, which is something the disciples should already know.

Since the righteous ask, "when did we ever see you thirsty, etc.?", these righteous do not represent his disciples because his disciples should already know the answer.Yes, because what is the state of the Church in Mat 25? I said at the point of Mat 25 which is after Mat 24's one take one left, the Church as been glorified. Those glorified wouldn't be asking such things. It's just common sense backed by scripture.

1Co 13:12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

1Jo 3:2 Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.

1Co 15:51-53 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

I said......

"You are applying truths students of the word know and understand now. Now is not then. Then is after Mat 24. Why didn't these individuals understand it all ready? If this is the church as so many claim, they were already glorified, and if glorified they would know as they are known, and understand, would they not? They wouldn't be seeing an obscured reflection in heavy glass (darkly) and asking 'when did we do it to you?"

All those that claim those in Mat 25 is the Church need to answer this!



Nonetheless, as I pointed out earlier, the main point is simple. How we treat Jesus in this life will be a major condition for our eternal destiny. Then, by extension, Jesus equates our treatment of his "brethren" with how we treat him. The remaining issue is to identify the "brethren", to which he answers elsewhere that his "mother" and his "brothers" are his disciples.

Whatever else we say about this passage, we can not deny the core idea.I can, and quite easily. Those that are Christ's will love his brothers. Whether that be humanity or Israel can be irrelevant to the discussion. You can take that factor out. There won't be believers there that did not love the brethren sent to everlasting punishment. That's an obvious impossibility.

You can't skip the core idea of members of Christ body being glorified as Christ is glorified, to satisfy your lack of understanding of Mat 25 and cut off and send a member of Christ's body to everlasting punishment.

Firstfruits
Jan 4th 2009, 12:29 PM
And one who is born again believes. If one does not believe, he is not born again. But once one is born again, he belongs to God's family forever and will continue to believe.

Yuke

Would you say that the following is someone that believed or believed not, even though they may not have understood?

Mt 13:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

Mt 13:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

Mt 13:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

What happens when a believer becomes unfruitful?

What happens if a believer does not endure?

Firstfruits

threebigrocks
Jan 4th 2009, 07:07 PM
Exactly, Paul was making reference to the founding of the church at Corinth, He specifically names himself and Apollos, I a m not sure that this is a principle that Paul was teaching the church, I think it may have been specifically directed at the Corinthians. In other words, what authority do we have to apply this elsewhere?

Well, Luke wrote his gospel to Theophilus so that Theophilus may believe. Do we also discount that because it only applies to one person? This is a slippery slope, and all of scripture is either for us or all of it is not for us. We could just as easily discount the OT because it wasn't even written to Christians and primarily was either historic or specific to Israel, the Jews.

Yukerboy
Jan 4th 2009, 07:09 PM
Would you say that the following is someone that believed or believed not, even though they may not have understood?

Mt 13:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

Mt 13:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

Mt 13:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

What happens when a believer becomes unfruitful?

What happens if a believer does not endure?

Firstfruits

All who are born again believe, but not all who believe are born again.

BroRog
Jan 4th 2009, 09:20 PM
Yes, because what is the state of the Church in Mat 25? I said at the point of Mat 25 which is after Mat 24's one take one left, the Church as been glorified. Those glorified wouldn't be asking such things. It's just common sense backed by scripture.

1Co 13:12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

1Jo 3:2 Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.

1Co 15:51-53 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

I said......

"You are applying truths students of the word know and understand now. Now is not then. Then is after Mat 24. Why didn't these individuals understand it all ready? If this is the church as so many claim, they were already glorified, and if glorified they would know as they are known, and understand, would they not? They wouldn't be seeing an obscured reflection in heavy glass (darkly) and asking 'when did we do it to you?"

All those that claim those in Mat 25 is the Church need to answer this!


I can, and quite easily. Those that are Christ's will love his brothers. Whether that be humanity or Israel can be irrelevant to the discussion. You can take that factor out. There won't be believers there that did not love the brethren sent to everlasting punishment. That's an obvious impossibility.

You can't skip the core idea of members of Christ body being glorified as Christ is glorified, to satisfy your lack of understanding of Mat 25 and cut off and send a member of Christ's body to everlasting punishment.

I don't know where you have gotten the idea that the church is glorified by the time Matthew 25 takes place. This is an assumption not bore out by the text.

Sirus
Jan 4th 2009, 10:52 PM
Are you serious? Just when are the dead in Christ raised first and those alive changed if not at his apearing? This should be interesting.....

Butch5
Jan 4th 2009, 11:53 PM
Well, Luke wrote his gospel to Theophilus so that Theophilus may believe. Do we also discount that because it only applies to one person? This is a slippery slope, and all of scripture is either for us or all of it is not for us. We could just as easily discount the OT because it wasn't even written to Christians and primarily was either historic or specific to Israel, the Jews.

It is applied how Luke writes it.



TBR---This is a slippery slope, and all of scripture is either for us or all of it is not for us.


This is not logical, does this Scripture apply to us,

2 Timothy 4:13 ( KJV ) 13The cloak that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments.

BroRog
Jan 5th 2009, 01:22 AM
Are you serious? Just when are the dead in Christ raised first and those alive changed if not at his apearing? This should be interesting.....

Who says anyone in Matthew 25 is dead?

Sirus
Jan 5th 2009, 02:04 AM
scripture
....the rest of the dead lived not again until the 1000 years were finished
....but stop skirting around the issue....
that's a side, not what I said, neither is it the point.

Do you or do you not think these in Mat 25 include the church after Christ's return? If so, they are glorified. If not. Explain with scripture why not. This should be interesting.....

BroRog
Jan 5th 2009, 02:18 AM
scripture
....the rest of the dead lived not again until the 1000 years were finished
stop skirting around the issue....
that's a side, not what I said, neither is it the point.

Do you or do you not think Mat 25 is the church after Christ's return? If so, they are glorified. If not. Explain with scripture why not.

I'm not skirting around the issue. The question is, where in Matthew 25 does it say that anyone is dead? If the text does not specifically say anyone is dead, then I cannot defend the idea that they are glorified or that this judgment includes anyone other than those living at the time.

I also cannot defend the position that Matthew 25 describes the church after Christ's return. The reference to "the nations" seems to be a general reference to anyone and everyone alive during the time Jesus shows up.

Sirus
Jan 5th 2009, 02:47 AM
I also cannot defend the position that Matthew 25 describes the church after Christ's return. The reference to "the nations" seems to be a general reference to anyone and everyone alive during the time Jesus shows up.That is exactly what I have maintained throughout the thread.

Firstfruits
Jan 5th 2009, 12:02 PM
All who are born again believe, but not all who believe are born again.

What therefore is the difference?

Mk 16:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Firstfruits

Yukerboy
Jan 5th 2009, 01:19 PM
What therefore is the difference?

Mk 16:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Firstfruits

Just as it says, he that believes and is baptized is born again.

He that doesn't believe is condemned.

He that does believe and is not baptized would also not be born again and therefore condemned.

threebigrocks
Jan 5th 2009, 02:42 PM
It is applied how Luke writes it.

But it wasn't written to a group of people, but to an unbeliever, one specific person. If we follow what you have been saying Luke's gospel wasn't meant for us but Theophilus. Nobody else.


This is not logical, does this Scripture apply to us,

2 Timothy 4:13 ( KJV ) 13The cloak that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments.

It's a LETTER! If I wrote you a letter and said:

You know the other day I was running errands- grocery store, stopped at WalMart, put gas in the car and while I was waiting in line for the carwash I had a new book to keep me busy. It was then that I remembered that one day we had gone to the beach and I think I left my sunglasses and my other book in your car which I never got to finish. I've enclosed a prepaid envelope if could please send them back to me along with the book.

Anyhow, the reason I am writing is to....

The point of my letter to you isn't to tell you of my errands for the day, or that I miss my book that was just starting to get good. People forget that there are literary styles in scripture and that Paul wrote letters. When we write, we include more than just a single "meaty" topic when it is to friends and those whom we have a relationship with. Some books are factual, historical, poetic, etc.

Reading what you put above tells me that there are friends who trust each other, who care that Paul forgot his cloak, would like it back and don't mind packing it in, along with the books and scrolls, to bring to him when they come to visit and share in the ministry. It does tell us something of who Paul associated with and the strength of what he and other did. A major doctrinal point? No, of course not. But Paul included it in his letter to Timothy because it was important to him.

threebigrocks
Jan 5th 2009, 02:43 PM
Just as it says, he that believes and is baptized is born again.

He that doesn't believe is condemned.

He that does believe and is not baptized would also not be born again and therefore condemned.

Indeed, we must chose to believe in order to be born again.

Firstfruits
Jan 5th 2009, 02:50 PM
Just as it says, he that believes and is baptized is born again.

He that doesn't believe is condemned.

He that does believe and is not baptized would also not be born again and therefore condemned.

Is everyone that believes and is baptized going to be saved?

Firstfruits

Yukerboy
Jan 5th 2009, 04:29 PM
Is everyone that believes and is baptized going to be saved?

Firstfruits

I answer with your own post.


Mk 16:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Yukerboy
Jan 5th 2009, 04:46 PM
Indeed, we must chose to believe in order to be born again.

Those who are born again:


Are chosen by Christ to know God. (Matthew 11:27, Luke 10:22)
Are the only ones chosen from those invited (Matthew 22:14)
Are chosen by God (Mark 13:20, Romans 8:33)
Did not choose Christ (John 15:16)
Were chosen by Christ (John 15:16)
Were chosen out of the world by Christ (John 15:19)
Are not born children of God by human decision (John 1:13)
Are given life by Christ because it pleases Christ (John 5:21)
Enabled to come to Christ by God (John 6:65)
Are given to Christ by God (John 17:2)
Have been granted repentance by God (Acts 11:18)
Are appointed by God for eternal life (Acts 13:48)
Are in Christ Jesus because of God (1 Corinthians 1:30)
I've read over the characteristics of those who are born again and not once have I seen where we choose to believe.

Firstfruits
Jan 5th 2009, 04:53 PM
I answer with your own post.

Are you then saying that those that believe and are baptized can never doubt God and become again unbelievers?

Firstfruits

Yukerboy
Jan 5th 2009, 09:30 PM
Are you then saying that those that believe and are baptized can never doubt God and become again unbelievers?

Firstfruits

When I speak of baptism, I am talking a spiritual baptism. Those that believe and are baptized with the Holy Ghost can never doubt God and become again unbelievers.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 5th 2009, 11:27 PM
Indeed, we must chose to believe in order to be born again.

Hi TBR!

When Jesus asked "and who do you say that I am"
Did Peter 'choose to believe' that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God?

Sirus
Jan 6th 2009, 01:16 AM
I believe he did.
If not, Peter was an apostle after all. Whens the last time God shook a building you were in? There is no precedence for a sovereign 'revealing' happens to all. Jesus spoke of Peters faith and never implied Peter was a robot or puppet. We all must believe.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Butch5
Jan 6th 2009, 03:44 AM
TBR---But it wasn't written to a group of people, but to an unbeliever, one specific person. If we follow what you have been saying Luke's gospel wasn't meant for us but Theophilus. Nobody else.

The letter was to Theophilus, however, if Luke wrote in the letter that Jesus died for the gentiles, then Jesus death applies to the gentiles, not just to Theophilus., even though it was written to him.




TBR---It's a LETTER! If I wrote you a letter and said:

You know the other day I was running errands- grocery store, stopped at WalMart, put gas in the car and while I was waiting in line for the carwash I had a new book to keep me busy. It was then that I remembered that one day we had gone to the beach and I think I left my sunglasses and my other book in your car which I never got to finish. I've enclosed a prepaid envelope if could please send them back to me along with the book.

Anyhow, the reason I am writing is to....

The point of my letter to you isn't to tell you of my errands for the day, or that I miss my book that was just starting to get good. People forget that there are literary styles in scripture and that Paul wrote letters. When we write, we include more than just a single "meaty" topic when it is to friends and those whom we have a relationship with. Some books are factual, historical, poetic, etc.

Reading what you put above tells me that there are friends who trust each other, who care that Paul forgot his cloak, would like it back and don't mind packing it in, along with the books and scrolls, to bring to him when they come to visit and share in the ministry. It does tell us something of who Paul associated with and the strength of what he and other did. A major doctrinal point? No, of course not. But Paul included it in his letter to Timothy because it was important to him.


That's fine but what does it have to do with your statement? You said either all of Scripture is for us or none is. My point was to show that Scripture must be applied according to context.

Firstfruits
Jan 6th 2009, 04:24 PM
When I speak of baptism, I am talking a spiritual baptism. Those that believe and are baptized with the Holy Ghost can never doubt God and become again unbelievers.

What does it mean to be baptized with the Holy Ghost?

Firstfruits

Yukerboy
Jan 6th 2009, 07:48 PM
What does it mean to be baptized with the Holy Ghost?

Firstfruits

To have the Holy Ghost abide in you. To have been born from above. Spirit gives birth to Spirit.

Firstfruits
Jan 6th 2009, 08:40 PM
To have the Holy Ghost abide in you. To have been born from above. Spirit gives birth to Spirit.

I take it that for the Spirit to abide in us we also should abide in the Spirit?

Jn 8:35 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=35) And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

Jn 15:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it Abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye Abide in me.

Jn 15:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Jn 15:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

1 Cor 7:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.
1 Cor 7:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) Brethren, let every man, wherein he is called, therein abide with God.

Firstfruits

Yukerboy
Jan 6th 2009, 10:18 PM
I take it that for the Spirit to abide in us we also should abide in the Spirit?

Jn 8:35 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=35) And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

Jn 15:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it Abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye Abide in me.

Jn 15:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Jn 15:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

1 Cor 7:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.
1 Cor 7:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) Brethren, let every man, wherein he is called, therein abide with God.

Firstfruits

Not only should we, but the born again do. It is a characteristic of the born again.

Firstfruits
Jan 7th 2009, 04:14 PM
Not only should we, but the born again do. It is a characteristic of the born again.

Do those that are born again always walk/live/abide in the Spirit?

Firstfruits

Yukerboy
Jan 7th 2009, 06:55 PM
Do those that are born again always walk/live/abide in the Spirit?

Firstfruits

Romans 8:3-4 And so he condemned sin in sinful man in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.