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JesusMySavior
Dec 29th 2008, 12:28 AM
If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained. (John 20:23)

Just curious what the extent of this means. Jesus had just given them the Holy Spirit after being raised from the dead by God's powerful hand.

Does that mean we as Christians have the ability to forgive one another's sins?

I'm not talking in a priestly sense because I don't believe in that stuff. As brothers and elders however, can we forgive one's faults just as God does? Or is Jesus merely speaking forgiveness and freedom into their lives here?

Thanks!

JesusReignsForever
Dec 29th 2008, 02:25 AM
Yea we have the power to forgive one another.

Example...If I steal your wallet but I feel bad about it and give it back and ask for your forgivness would you forgive me?

You would have the power to forgive me or not forgive me. If you fogive me than I am forgiven if you dont then you dont. But I can still ask God to forgive me wether you do or not. To me thats what it means.

but also in Matt. 13 it says...

14For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

So it would be in our best intrest if we forgave each other no matter what.

Thats my take on it.

neverleaveunorfors
Dec 29th 2008, 02:35 AM
If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained. (John 20:23)

Just curious what the extent of this means. Jesus had just given them the Holy Spirit after being raised from the dead by God's powerful hand.

Does that mean we as Christians have the ability to forgive one another's sins?

I'm not talking in a priestly sense because I don't believe in that stuff. As brothers and elders however, can we forgive one's faults just as God does? Or is Jesus merely speaking forgiveness and freedom into their lives here?

Thanks!
It means just what it says Ok once they or we or a person recieves the spirit it is not them but the spirit that forgives or retains retained I'd say is due to the condition of a persons heart .Is there love in it ? Is there compassion in it ? Is there a true heart felt remorse in it The spirit wont buy bull ship ( you know what I'm saying ) and just as Jesus said the words I speak are not mine but they are SPIRIT {remember what Moses wrote (God }I will raise up for them A Phrophet Like you from among their brotheren I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all I command him . And it shall be that whoever will not here MY( Yes MY } words Which he speaks in my name I will require it of Him DEUT.18: 18 -18: 19 So the words Christ spoke were Of GOD and also exactley what Christ did in commisioning these with the spirit It is only the Spirit that can forgive But the son of man can if he has it and really not him but the spirit . LOTS OF LOVE JAMES

MacGyver
Dec 29th 2008, 04:01 PM
Notice Jesus never said anything like this to anyone but the Apostles, so it is meant for those with Apostolic authority. Had Jesus said this to a group of followers it would apply to the common believer.

Vhayes
Dec 29th 2008, 04:06 PM
Hmmmmm - this is what it has always meant to me.

When we are before God and He is judging our works (the bad will be burned and as hay and stubble and the good will come out as gems) those things we have done that have been forgiven while here on earth will not be a part of the hay and stubble - they will not be judged because they have been forgiven by whomever we wronged and therefore forgotten by God.

I forgive people for things they have not asked forgiveness for because of that belief.
V

JesusMySavior
Dec 29th 2008, 04:33 PM
Notice Jesus never said anything like this to anyone but the Apostles, so it is meant for those with Apostolic authority. Had Jesus said this to a group of followers it would apply to the common believer.


Read the verses before it. Jesus breathed on them and they recieved the Holy Spirit. If you are a believer and have recieved the Holy Spirit, it applies to you.

JesusMySavior
Dec 29th 2008, 04:36 PM
Hmmmmm - this is what it has always meant to me.

When we are before God and He is judging our works (the bad will be burned and as hay and stubble and the good will come out as gems) those things we have done that have been forgiven while here on earth will not be a part of the hay and stubble - they will not be judged because they have been forgiven by whomever we wronged and therefore forgotten by God.

I forgive people for things they have not asked forgiveness for because of that belief.
V


That's a great way to look at it. Very helpful!

MacGyver
Dec 29th 2008, 05:32 PM
Read the verses before it. Jesus breathed on them and they recieved the Holy Spirit. If you are a believer and have recieved the Holy Spirit, it applies to you.The Spirit descended over the apostles the first time in verse 22 through a breath to indicate the proliferation of grace through the sacraments, whose ministers they were. The second time the Spirit descended on them in tongues of fire to indicate the proliferation of grace through teaching; and so we read in Acts (2:4) that right after they were filled with the Holy Spirit they began to speak. As St. John Chrysostom says, "the Holy Spirit was given to the disciples (in verse 22-23), not for all tasks in general, but for a specific task, that is, to forgive sin."

Equipped_4_Love
Dec 29th 2008, 05:54 PM
First of all, the apostles had no authority to forgive sins on God's behalf....only God has that authority.

That being said, Jesus does give us the power to forgive sins, but not for the purpose of bringing others into peace with God, but so that we can reflect the divine nature of God.

God commands us to be Christ-like, imitators of Him, and in order to do that, we often need divine help and guidance, which is where the Holy Spirit comes in. The Holy Spirit comes alongside us to help us be more Christ-like.

Oftentimes, or fallen nature does not allow for forgiveness. When this is the case, the Holy Spirit of God enables us to forgive, so that we can follow Christ's command to forgive.

It has nothing to do with forgiving people in an eternal sense. No human being....not even the Pope himself....has that kind of authority. Only Jesus Christ does.

MacGyver
Dec 29th 2008, 06:20 PM
First of all, the apostles had no authority to forgive sins on God's behalf....only God has that authority.

That being said, Jesus does give us the power to forgive sins, but not for the purpose of bringing others into peace with God, but so that we can reflect the divine nature of God.

God commands us to be Christ-like, imitators of Him, and in order to do that, we often need divine help and guidance, which is where the Holy Spirit comes in. The Holy Spirit comes alongside us to help us be more Christ-like.

Oftentimes, or fallen nature does not allow for forgiveness. When this is the case, the Holy Spirit of God enables us to forgive, so that we can follow Christ's command to forgive.

It has nothing to do with forgiving people in an eternal sense. No human being....not even the Pope himself....has that kind of authority. Only Jesus Christ does.Ultimately God's power is the source for forgiveness, though God often works through the visible things to provide His invisible graces. The idea that just any believer has the authority to not only forgive the sins of others but also the authority to retain....

Bladers
Dec 29th 2008, 08:48 PM
The Spirit descended over the apostles the first time in verse 22 through a breath to indicate the proliferation of grace through the sacraments, whose ministers they were. The second time the Spirit descended on them in tongues of fire to indicate the proliferation of grace through teaching; and so we read in Acts (2:4) that right after they were filled with the Holy Spirit they began to speak. As St. John Chrysostom says, "the Holy Spirit was given to the disciples (in verse 22-23), not for all tasks in general, but for a specific task, that is, to forgive sin."

I differ:
The Holy Spirit came in them to save them, to seal them with salvation of the Lord Jesus. Then the holy Spirit came upon them for power, to be witnesses of the gospel.

My brother there are three different process in the working of the Spirit of God.

With you, In you, Upon you

With you - before salvation, to convict you
In you - at salvation, to save you
Upon you - to empower you for service, to be witnesses

MacGyver
Dec 29th 2008, 09:45 PM
I differ:
The Holy Spirit came in them to save them, to seal them with salvation of the Lord Jesus. Then the holy Spirit came upon them for power, to be witnesses of the gospel.

My brother there are three different process in the working of the Spirit of God.

With you, In you, Upon you

With you - before salvation, to convict you
In you - at salvation, to save you
Upon you - to empower you for service, to be witnessesThat's fine if you believe that, but it is not what the Early Church taught about it. Sometimes in order to understand what is really meant in Scripture is to go to those who were taught by the Apostles and those a few generations after.

Equipped_4_Love
Dec 29th 2008, 10:42 PM
That's fine if you believe that, but it is not what the Early Church taught about it. Sometimes in order to understand what is really meant in Scripture is to go to those who were taught by the Apostles and those a few generations after.


Where in the recorded works of the early apostles does it refer to them telling people that their sins are forgiven them?

You see Jesus doing it all the time. He is the only one with the authority to forgive sins.

Emanate
Dec 29th 2008, 10:58 PM
That's fine if you believe that, but it is not what the Early Church taught about it. Sometimes in order to understand what is really meant in Scripture is to go to those who were taught by the Apostles and those a few generations after.


Then again, you can go to many early church fathers to find complete heresy.

MacGyver
Dec 29th 2008, 11:08 PM
Where in the recorded works of the early apostles does it refer to them telling people that their sins are forgiven them?

You see Jesus doing it all the time. He is the only one with the authority to forgive sins.True, it is ultimately God who forgives, but God uses those ordained as instruments. Confessing our sins for forgiveness has taken different forms, but those forms always has been understood as being done beyond you and God alone. For example the Didache "Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . . On the Lordís Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure" (Didache 4:14, 14:1 [A.D. 70]).

Then you see with St. Hippolytus that it takes a developed form "[The bishop conducting the ordination of the new bishop shall pray:] God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. . . . Pour forth now that power which comes from you, from your royal Spirit, which you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, and which he bestowed upon his holy apostles . . . and grant this your servant, whom you have chosen for the episcopate, [the power] to feed your holy flock and to serve without blame as your high priest, ministering night and day to propitiate unceasingly before your face and to offer to you the gifts of your holy Church, and by the Spirit of the high priesthood to have the authority to forgive sins, in accord with your command" (Apostolic Tradition 3 [A.D. 215]).

As well as Origen "[A final method of forgiveness], albeit hard and laborious the remission of sins through penance, when the sinner . . . does not shrink from declaring his sin to a priest of the Lord and from seeking medicine, after the manner of him who say, ĎI said, "To the Lord I will accuse myself of my iniquity"í" ([I]Homilies on Leviticus 2:4 [A.D. 248]).

The St. Basil "It is necessary to confess our sins to those to whom the dispensation of Godís mysteries is entrusted. Those doing penance of old are found to have done it before the saints. It is written in the Gospel that they confessed their sins to John the Baptist [Matt. 3:6], but in Acts [19:18] they confessed to the apostles" (Rules Briefly Treated 288 [A.D. 374]).