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poochie
Dec 29th 2008, 12:29 AM
Do you deny or believe in this vital doctrine? Why or why not?

I am still working on my separation article (will try to make it some 7,500 + words) and I am working through Mt 7:15-20 as I write. This is what I wrote about a few modern denominations that deny the doctrine of total sufficiency.



For example there are many denominations that at one time were bible preaching and at one time were sound. The Missionary Church, the Christian & Missionary Alliance, & the Conservative Baptist Association are a few of many denominations that have been deceived by savage wolves. These denominations went on the path to liberalism by making small steps and ended up on the slippery slope. I know of 1 CBA church in my area and although they believe in the Fundamentals of the Christian faith, have opened the door to liberalism by allowing women to teach adult Sunday school, by changing their worship style from traditional to contemporary, and by creating a cafe like atmosphere on Friday nights for the 20 something crowd. These leaders at this church claim that doing these things is the best way to reach the modern generation. Such a statement is really the polite way for these leaders to say that they deny the doctrine of Sufficiency. For if they believed in the doctrine of sufficiency these pastors would believe that the word of God alone can change hearts (Psa 19:7-8). Therefore there is no need for attractive programs or anykind of Market Driven approach to reaching the lost.

Will get to my Separation from disobedient brethren section soon. I cant say that I believe like the Fundamentalists in being total separation from all evangelicals. I believe only in separating from bad evangelicals and charismatics.

But all in all a denial of the doctrine of Sufficiency would warrant a separation case.

Kahtar
Dec 29th 2008, 01:09 AM
I see many many people reading and hearing the Word of God and finding only myths and contradictions. They read the ten commandments and consider them hateful.
However, when the Holy Spirit works in their hearts, then when they hear the Word, they believe and receive the Word of Truth.
Thus, I cannot agree that the Word of God alone, without the accompanying influence and leading of the Holy Spirit, is able to do anything more than make them hate God all the more.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Hebrews 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard [it].

Fortunately, we humans are not in the position of judge, although many would attempt to usurp that authority from God Who Alone is worthy and able to judge the hearts of men, and so your hypercritical analysis and judgment of various denominations is entirely unwarranted and does nothing more than further deepen the divisions in the body of Christ.
1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

If one desires to hack something or someone up, why not make it the enemy of God, rather than our own brothers and sisters in Christ?
Better yet, why not focus our energy on giving the Word of Truth to those who have not yet heard, or believed?

poochie
Dec 29th 2008, 04:22 AM
Many teachers of the truth have written books on discernment. John MacArthur wrote a book called the Truth War and he provides much discernment.

I spend a great deal of my time in soul winning efforts as I lead a ministry extension and pass out tracts in my city's downtown area every week. but the purpose of my article is not soul winning but teaching what the bible says on separation.

Finished product is coming so stay tuned.


I see many many people reading and hearing the Word of God and finding only myths and contradictions. They read the ten commandments and consider them hateful.
However, when the Holy Spirit works in their hearts, then when they hear the Word, they believe and receive the Word of Truth.
Thus, I cannot agree that the Word of God alone, without the accompanying influence and leading of the Holy Spirit, is able to do anything more than make them hate God all the more.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Hebrews 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard [it].

Fortunately, we humans are not in the position of judge, although many would attempt to usurp that authority from God Who Alone is worthy and able to judge the hearts of men, and so your hypercritical analysis and judgment of various denominations is entirely unwarranted and does nothing more than further deepen the divisions in the body of Christ.
1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

If one desires to hack something or someone up, why not make it the enemy of God, rather than our own brothers and sisters in Christ?
Better yet, why not focus our energy on giving the Word of Truth to those who have not yet heard, or believed?

SIG
Dec 29th 2008, 06:14 AM
"For example there are many denominations that at one time were bible preaching and at one time were sound. The Missionary Church, the Christian & Missionary Alliance, & the Conservative Baptist Association are a few of many denominations that have been deceived by savage wolves."

poochie--Can you tell me how you reached this conclusion and exactly who these savage wolves are (and particularly concerning the Missionary Church)?

poochie
Dec 29th 2008, 06:23 AM
"For example there are many denominations that at one time were bible preaching and at one time were sound. The Missionary Church, the Christian & Missionary Alliance, & the Conservative Baptist Association are a few of many denominations that have been deceived by savage wolves."

poochie--Can you tell me how you reached this conclusion and exactly who these savage wolves are (and particularly concerning the Missionary Church)?

Read the rest of it. The Missionary Church for example ordains women and that is a HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE problem.

The Bible is quite clear on the role of a woman in the ministry and for a denomination to ordain them to ministry is a case worth separating over. No Bible preaching church (Fundamentalist or Evangelical) believes in such a practice.

SIG
Dec 29th 2008, 07:33 AM
I asked because I attend a Missionary Church, and am not aware of women being ordained.

http://www.mcusa.org/Editor/assets/07-constitution.pdf

crossnote
Dec 29th 2008, 07:41 AM
Do you deny or believe in this vital doctrine? Why or why not?

I am still working on my separation article (will try to make it some 7,500 + words) and I am working through Mt 7:15-20 as I write. This is what I wrote about a few modern denominations that deny the doctrine of total sufficiency.



Will get to my Separation from disobedient brethren section soon. I cant say that I believe like the Fundamentalists in being total separation from all evangelicals. I believe only in separating from bad evangelicals and charismatics.

But all in all a denial of the doctrine of Sufficiency would warrant a separation case.

Doctrine of sufficiency?
Do you mean, sufficiency of Scripture? Of Christ? Of a large Thanksgiving dinner?

crossnote
Dec 29th 2008, 07:47 AM
My experience with denominations goes sour when I see that their upper echelon (the corporatation) wields too much power which usually is inevitable over time. This is because much of what goes on is political in nature and the positions slowly get taken by worldly wisemen who have little concern for God's ways. Thru their politiking in time they begin to dictate to the local churches what programs, teaching material, and what pastors go where until you have a full blown liberal denomination with empty pews.

poochie
Dec 29th 2008, 06:15 PM
The western district of the Missionary Church is very liberal. While they may not official ordain women they do allow them to teach men in SS and for them to hold leadership positions over men.


I asked because I attend a Missionary Church, and am not aware of women being ordained.

http://www.mcusa.org/Editor/assets/07-constitution.pdf

poochie
Dec 29th 2008, 06:19 PM
Well said brother, well said. Thats what I was thinking.


My experience with denominations goes sour when I see that their upper echelon (the corporatation) wields too much power which usually is inevitable over time. This is because much of what goes on is political in nature and the positions slowly get taken by worldly wisemen who have little concern for God's ways. Thru their politiking in time they begin to dictate to the local churches what programs, teaching material, and what pastors go where until you have a full blown liberal denomination with empty pews.

poochie
Dec 29th 2008, 06:20 PM
Doctrine of sufficiency?
Do you mean, sufficiency of Scripture? Of Christ? Of a large Thanksgiving dinner?

Scripture. Scripture alone is enough for the Christian and for life.

VerticalReality
Dec 29th 2008, 07:02 PM
Scripture. Scripture alone is enough for the Christian and for life.

Is Scripture enough to equip a born again believer in the way of righteousness? It absolutely is sufficient. However, is it completely sufficient to always know and walk the will of God? Not necessarily. The Word of God does not give specific direction down to the minute detail regarding God's will for an individual believer. Just using Scripture to support my example . . . Paul didn't have any Scriptures instructing him not to preach the gospel in Asia Minor. It was the Spirit of God that directed him away from there. Had he only relied on the Scriptures and not the Spirit given to lead him then he would have been operating outside of God's will. There are no specific Scriptures that would tell someone not to preach the gospel in a certain area. We would have to be led by His Spirit to know such a thing. That's just one of what could be many examples. The Scriptures do teach, however, that we must all seek God diligently and have a close relationship with Him in order to hear what He would have us do in specific situations. His sheep hear His voice, and those who are obedient to His voice will go where He says go and do what He says do.

RabbiKnife
Dec 29th 2008, 07:08 PM
I don't have any idea what a "doctrine of sufficiency" has to do with the accusations contained in the original post.

Brother Mark
Dec 29th 2008, 07:30 PM
Is Scripture enough to equip a born again believer in the way of righteousness? It absolutely is sufficient. However, is it completely sufficient to always know and walk the will of God? Not necessarily. The Word of God does not give specific direction down to the minute detail regarding God's will for an individual believer. Just using Scripture to support my example . . . Paul didn't have any Scriptures instructing him not to preach the gospel in Asia Minor. It was the Spirit of God that directed him away from there. Had he only relied on the Scriptures and not the Spirit given to lead him then he would have been operating outside of God's will. There are no specific Scriptures that would tell someone not to preach the gospel in a certain area. We would have to be led by His Spirit to know such a thing. That's just one of what could be many examples. The Scriptures do teach, however, that we must all seek God diligently and have a close relationship with Him in order to hear what He would have us do in specific situations. His sheep hear His voice, and those who are obedient to His voice will go where He says go and do what He says do.

What scriptures did David use to know it was OK for him to eat the shewbread?

RabbiKnife
Dec 29th 2008, 09:41 PM
What scriptures did David use to know it was OK for him to eat the shewbread?

Hezekiah 4:19, I think.

poochie
Dec 29th 2008, 10:58 PM
Hezekiah 4:19, I think.

Not familiar with that text

Brother Mark
Dec 29th 2008, 11:02 PM
Not familiar with that text

It's not there. I think that's the point. There was no scripture that told David he would be held guiltless for eating the shewbread.

poochie
Dec 29th 2008, 11:08 PM
It's not there. I think that's the point. There was no scripture that told David he would be held guiltless for eating the shewbread.

You need to follow the scriptures and what they teach, and not use some rare examples to bypass the teachings. Also you need to understand Biblical Theology and you must not use exegesis alone to interpret scripture.

The Snake Handler movement uses similar interpretative methods as you brother Mark.

Brother Mark
Dec 29th 2008, 11:15 PM
You need to follow the scriptures and what they teach, and not use some rare examples to bypass the teachings. Also you need to understand Biblical Theology and you must not use exegesis alone to interpret scripture.

All it takes is one example to show something won't work. If all we needed were the scriptures, then why does the Holy Spirit teach us? Why would the Lord create a new covenant and write things on our heart? And I ask again, how, with only scriptures, could David have known it was OK for him to eat the shewbread?


The Snake Handler movement uses similar interpretative methods as you brother Mark.

You know my interpretive methods this well? I have not said context is the only things that matter and that grammar is what should be used to know what God is saying. Given the grammar of the verses, they would be correct in handling snakes. But if we use more than grammar, then we learn more of what God is really saying.

poochie
Dec 30th 2008, 12:20 AM
All it takes is one example to show something won't work. If all we needed were the scriptures, then why does the Holy Spirit teach us? Why would the Lord create a new covenant and write things on our heart? And I ask again, how, with only scriptures, could David have known it was OK for him to eat the shewbread?



You know my interpretive methods this well? I have not said context is the only things that matter and that grammar is what should be used to know what God is saying. Given the grammar of the verses, they would be correct in handling snakes. But if we use more than grammar, then we learn more of what God is really saying.

Mark you must understand context and you must understand Biblical Theology. The Snake Handler movement fails to see these things and interprets on Grammar alone.

In the same way do those that believe in NO DIVORCE or divorce for anything fail to see the interpretive value of Matt. They say "if the exception clause" only exists in Matt and not in the other synoptics then divorce is to be practiced.

But the truth is that Matthew alone is in the canon and is authoritative.

Brother Mark
Dec 30th 2008, 12:23 AM
Mark you must understand context and you must understand Biblical Theology. The Snake Handler movement fails to see these things and interpret on Grammar alone.

I see. We don't use grammar in this passage. But when scripture speaks of women in authority, then we use grammar alone.

I do agree in this, we need to take the entire counsel of God including the whole book and the teaching of the Holy Spirit to go along. Then we can rightly divide the word of truth. It's more than just grammar, even when it comes to women in authority.

poochie
Dec 30th 2008, 03:12 AM
I see. We don't use grammar in this passage. But when scripture speaks of women in authority, then we use grammar alone.

I do agree in this, we need to take the entire counsel of God including the whole book and the teaching of the Holy Spirit to go along. Then we can rightly divide the word of truth. It's more than just grammar, even when it comes to women in authority.

The role of women in the Ministry is a black and white issue. No Fundamentalist University, college, institute, seminary or church debates over that issue. Its only disobedient evangelical and Charismatics that debate over that black and white issue.

I have interacted with hundreds of females and visited to 20 some Fundamentalist churches in the south and the role of women in the ministry is not debated or even considered a debate.

I disagree with some churches interpretation of the passage and chauvinist attitude toward women (head coverings, cant teach children without a man present, chat speak in church, cant pray out loud,etc).

Brother Mark
Dec 30th 2008, 04:05 AM
The role of women in the Ministry is a black and white issue. No Fundamentalist University, college, institute, seminary or church debates over that issue. Its only disobedient evangelical and Charismatics that debate over that black and white issue.

I suppose God was disobedient when he called Deborah to judge and lead Israel, or when he called Myriam to prophesy over Israel or when he called Anna to be a prophet in the NT and to speak words, or when he called Priscilla to help her husband Aquilla to train up Apollos.


I have interacted with hundreds of females and visited to 20 some Fundamentalist churches in the south and the role of women in the ministry is not debated or even considered a debate.

I disagree with some churches interpretation of the passage and chauvinist attitude toward women (head coverings, cant teach children without a man present, chat speak in church, cant pray out loud,etc).

But you also disagree that Priscilla should have taught Apollos or that Myriam could prophesy to not only Israel, but since her prophetic utterings are recorded in scripture (along with Ana) to us as well. I suppose they are being disobedient too.

Though I still haven't given you my opinion on the subject, though I have suggested some things. It is quite clear that grammar won't tell us exactly what God is saying.

crossnote
Dec 30th 2008, 06:14 AM
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
(2Ti 3:15-17)

It seems that sufficiency pertains to 'wise unto salvation' and 'faith in Christ'.

poochie
Dec 30th 2008, 06:15 PM
Your posts reveal your opinion regardless of what you claim.

Mark check out this website

www.cbmw.org


I suppose God was disobedient when he called Deborah to judge and lead Israel, or when he called Myriam to prophesy over Israel or when he called Anna to be a prophet in the NT and to speak words, or when he called Priscilla to help her husband Aquilla to train up Apollos.



But you also disagree that Priscilla should have taught Apollos or that Myriam could prophesy to not only Israel, but since her prophetic utterings are recorded in scripture (along with Ana) to us as well. I suppose they are being disobedient too.

Though I still haven't given you my opinion on the subject, though I have suggested some things. It is quite clear that grammar won't tell us exactly what God is saying.

RabbiKnife
Dec 30th 2008, 06:26 PM
I'm just a little confused.

So knowing that you disagree with your brothers at this educational facility to the degree that you would not be able to effectively minister among them, you secretly disagree with them and deceive them by your omissions?

You are looking for a ministry position within their ranks while not revealing what you actually believe?

Wow. Hope I read that wrong.

Brother Mark
Dec 30th 2008, 06:32 PM
Your posts reveal your opinion regardless of what you claim.

Not the fullness of it. I only throw things and ask questions. Did Jesus reveal his position when he answered a question with a question? Is John the Baptist of God or of man? His question did not reveal his answer, though it did reveal something about Jesus.


Mark check out this website

www.cbmw.org (http://www.cbmw.org)

I looked at the website. There are many interesting things in scripture on what it means to be a man, and what it means to be a woman.

superwoman8977
Dec 30th 2008, 06:56 PM
Okay I am a 31 year old WOMAN. I am a child of the Lord. Some of my best friends are women preachers. I do not believe that a woman cannot do this, this, or this. I am so blessed that my parents taught me that a woman can do anything a man can do and that has so helped me with going through my divorce and landing on my own 2 feet and yes in financial ruin but slowly climbing out of that pit. I read the website you suggested and frankly found alot of hogwash. I believe that women can do anything a man can do and do anything she sets her mind to. Am I wrong well then so be it, but how many women can you find that work 50 hrs a week and raise 3 kids all on one income. I am not on welfare of any kind, nor do I ask for handouts from my friends and family. Strictly me and God on my own. Day in and day out I read this whole women cant do this and cant do that and I think then why the heck am I doing it? God obviously has some kind of plan in mind. I get so tired of hearing a womans place is in the home or that a woman cannot have her own free thinking etc because I am living proof oh yes you can.

Brother Mark
Dec 30th 2008, 06:59 PM
Okay I am a 31 year old WOMAN. I am a child of the Lord. Some of my best friends are women preachers. I do not believe that a woman cannot do this, this, or this. I am so blessed that my parents taught me that a woman can do anything a man can do and that has so helped me with going through my divorce and landing on my own 2 feet and yes in financial ruin but slowly climbing out of that pit. I read the website you suggested and frankly found alot of hogwash. I believe that women can do anything a man can do and do anything she sets her mind to. Am I wrong well then so be it, but how many women can you find that work 50 hrs a week and raise 3 kids all on one income. I am not on welfare of any kind, nor do I ask for handouts from my friends and family. Strictly me and God on my own. Day in and day out I read this whole women cant do this and cant do that and I think then why the heck am I doing it? God obviously has some kind of plan in mind. I get so tired of hearing a womans place is in the home or that a woman cannot have her own free thinking etc because I am living proof oh yes you can.

Women and men are different and thank God for those differences! Women and men can both do things that the other cannot or should not do. For instance, men cannot bear children.

We are most blessed when we follow fully that for which God intended us, whether man or woman.

poochie
Dec 30th 2008, 10:37 PM
You did read it wrong. I disagree with them on their views on 2nd and 3rd degree separation, but we agree on the role of women in the ministry for the most part and their views vary from church to church. Some churches wont allow a women to pray or speak in the service and others will. Some force them to wear head coverings (if they desire to be a member or be in ministry that is) and others do not.


I'm just a little confused.

So knowing that you disagree with your brothers at this educational facility to the degree that you would not be able to effectively minister among them, you secretly disagree with them and deceive them by your omissions?

You are looking for a ministry position within their ranks while not revealing what you actually believe?

Wow. Hope I read that wrong.

poochie
Dec 30th 2008, 10:46 PM
Hello Superwoman


[QUOTE=superwoman8977;1923517]Okay I am a 31 year old WOMAN. I am a child of the Lord. Some of my best friends are women preachers. I do not believe that a woman cannot do this, this, or this.

What Bible verse or passage allows a woman to teach, preach and have authority over a man? Can you cite some examples?


I am so blessed that my parents taught me that a woman can do anything a man can do and that has so helped me with going through my divorce and landing on my own 2 feet and yes in financial ruin but slowly climbing out of that pit.

On what grounds did you get a divorce? I dont know your situation and cannot comment. But make sure that you have obeyed the scriptures first.


I read the website you suggested and frankly found alot of hogwash.

1 Cor 14:38 KJV
But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.


I believe that women can do anything a man can do and do anything she sets her mind to. Am I wrong well then so be it, but how many women can you find that work 50 hrs a week and raise 3 kids all on one income. I am not on welfare of any kind, nor do I ask for handouts from my friends and family. Strictly me and God on my own. Day in and day out I read this whole women cant do this and cant do that and I think then why the heck am I doing it? God obviously has some kind of plan in mind. I get so tired of hearing a womans place is in the home or that a woman cannot have her own free thinking etc because I am living proof oh yes you can.

The women's liberation movement taught women that their primary role was not to be in silence and in submission to a man. It has deceived countless millions of women who do not take the scriptures seriously, or have been deceived by the world, the flesh or the devil.

I have been to 20 + Fundamentalist churches and have spoken with hundreds of Fundamentalist/Conservative women who believe and are content in their primary role in submission to a man, and as the caretaker of the home.

SuperWoman I care about you dearly and wish you to read the following article on the subject. God speed!

http://www.cerm.info/bible_studies/Theological/women_in_ministry.htm