PDA

View Full Version : Why do you marvel?



Partaker of Christ
Dec 29th 2008, 01:58 AM
Rev 17:5 And on her forehead was written a name of mystery: "Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth's abominations."
Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. When I saw her, I marveled greatly.
Rev 17:7 But the angel said to me, "Why do you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman, and of the beast with seven heads and ten horns that carries her.

Why did John marvel?

Do you think that he may have had, a wrongly preconceived idea (from scripture) who this 'mystery' Babylon would be, or that Babylon was revived.

Isa 21:8 And he cried, A lion: My lord, I stand continually upon the watchtower in the daytime, and I am set in my ward whole nights:
Isa 21:9 And, behold, here cometh a chariot of men, with a couple of horsemen. And he answered and said, Babylon is fallen, is fallen; and all the graven images of her gods he hath broken unto the ground.

Also Jermiah 50 and 51

ross3421
Dec 30th 2008, 06:09 AM
Rev 17:5 And on her forehead was written a name of mystery: "Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth's abominations."
Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. When I saw her, I marveled greatly.
Rev 17:7 But the angel said to me, "Why do you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman, and of the beast with seven heads and ten horns that carries her.

Why did John marvel?

Do you think that he may have had, a wrongly preconceived idea (from scripture) who this 'mystery' Babylon would be, or that Babylon was revived.

Isa 21:8 And he cried, A lion: My lord, I stand continually upon the watchtower in the daytime, and I am set in my ward whole nights:
Isa 21:9 And, behold, here cometh a chariot of men, with a couple of horsemen. And he answered and said, Babylon is fallen, is fallen; and all the graven images of her gods he hath broken unto the ground.

Also Jermiah 50 and 51

John marveled as he has seen this image before in heaven..........

third hero
Dec 30th 2008, 06:12 AM
I think John marvelled because the city that is called Babylon is a city that, at his lifetime, was considered the enemy of God. I believe that he had seen Rome.

dan
Jan 1st 2009, 05:28 AM
I think John marvelled because the city that is called Babylon is a city that, at his lifetime, was considered the enemy of God. I believe that he had seen Rome.

...That he marveled because she was drinking from the cup.

REV 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

DurbanDude
Jan 2nd 2009, 03:19 PM
Rev 17:5 And on her forehead was written a name of mystery: "Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth's abominations."
Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. When I saw her, I marveled greatly.
Rev 17:7 But the angel said to me, "Why do you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman, and of the beast with seven heads and ten horns that carries her.

Why did John marvel?



I think he marvelled because he was shocked that she had so much power, and shocked that she was so disgusting. There is this creature drinking the blood of our brothers and sisters, the saints. Rome's involvement in the wholesale slaughter of Jews and Christians over the ages is shocking . From ancient Rome to the Holy Roman empire to the more modern secretive Jesuit movement , bringing down governments, influencing massacres for its own ends and its own power.

Diolectic
Jan 2nd 2009, 08:45 PM
John Marveled because he was shocked as found that the harolt is Israel.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 2nd 2009, 10:14 PM
John Marveled because he was shocked as found that the harolt is Israel.

Hi Diolectic!

I marvel that you believe this.

DurbanDude
Jan 2nd 2009, 10:32 PM
John Marveled because he was shocked as found that the harolt is Israel.

Diolectic, I agree that Israel will rule over the earth under the rule of the antichrist at the end, however I believe that you have the roles reversed:

The beast of Revelation 17 can be likened to the little horn of Daniel 7. A small country that was, and was destroyed, and then rose up again to shock the non-believers of earth. Remember the church was not shocked when Israel arose in 1948, it was a fulfilment of prophecy, the church was excited:

17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

I believe the 8th empire of Rev 17 is Israel. The woman city of Rev 17/18 sits on the beast. This is indicative of control. This city that sets up the antichrist rule from Israel is defined:

17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

The woman is Rome, which is the only city that ruled over many kings at the time of writing of Revelation, Israel's dominance is actually the 3rd phase of Rome's dominance. We know all about the phases of Rome from Daniel 2:
1)Iron - military empire
2)Two legs- East and West divisions of Rome
Iron and clay - the religious and military power in both east and west divisions of the Roman Empire.
3)Ten toes - Rome divides earth into ten regions to support the beast, the rule of Israel.

These 3 phases of Rome's rule fit in with the last 6th, 7th and 8th empires of Rev 17.

If you do an in depth study of all the detailed descriptions of the city of Rev 17/18 we can see that every description matches Rome (both current Rome and ancient Rome) perfectly, yet it takes a stretch of facts to fit in these descriptions with other cities. For example, the wearing of both violet and purple robes was a common practice in the leadership of ancient Rome, and the robes of the cardinals and bishops of current Rome (I mean the Vatican) are violet and purple.

Diolectic
Jan 2nd 2009, 10:46 PM
Hi Diolectic!

I marvel that you believe this.Now you know how John felt.

Revelation 17:
God is dealing with Israel, not Rome or any other nation. Rome is not married to any one, but Israel is(was) married to God. After the Church and true Israel is raptured, all that is left is the whore which is unrepentant Israel.

Revelation 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet colored beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
Who have we read that was last seen in the wilderness?
Israel was last seen in the wilderness.

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and three score days.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Who are the "they" in verse 6?
They are the nations which was to be ruled all nations with a rod of iron by the male child.
While Israel was being "fed" by the nations, she started playing the harlot.

Rev 17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. (Ref. Eze 16:26 You have also committed fornication with the Egyptians your very fleshly neighbors; and hast increased thy whoredoms, to provoke me to anger.)
Who is the harlot through out the Scriptures?
Even in Hosea, Israel was being portrayed as his wife the harlot.

Rev 12:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
This is a description of the priestly garments and the
And the "precious stones" were according to the names of the children of Israel, Exodus 39:6-14

Who is drunk with the blood of the saint and martyrs of Jesus?
Rev 12:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. (Ref . Isa 1:21 How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers
Mat 23:34-37 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: :35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. :36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. :37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that kills the prophets, and stones them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Luk 11:47-51
Act 7:58-60 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. :59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. :60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep

Diolectic
Jan 2nd 2009, 11:03 PM
Diolectic, I agree that Israel will rule over the earth under the rule of the antichrist at the end, however I believe that you have the roles reversed:I'm showing that the harlot is Israel.
I'm have not shown who the antichrist is.


The beast of Revelation 17 can be likened to the little horn of Daniel 7. A small country that was, and was destroyed, and then rose up again to shock the non-believers of earth. Remember the church was not shocked when Israel arose in 1948, it was a fulfilment of prophecy, the church was excited:

17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

I believe the 8th empire of Rev 17 is Israel. The woman city of Rev 17/18 sits on the beast. This is indicative of control. This city that sets up the antichrist rule from Israel is defined:
Rev 17:8 The beast that you saw was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition(rev 20:3): and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder(Isa 14:10), whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is (Jesus was and is and is to come, a complete contrast to the devil.)

Ref. Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season (shall ascend out of the bottomless pit). Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (and go into perdition)
And;
Isa 14:10 All they shall speak and say unto you, Art thou also become weak as we? Are you become like unto us? (shall wonder)
Therefore, the beast is the devil.

Rev 17:10And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come(the 8th); and when he comes, he must continue a short while.
1. Egypt (1600-1200 BC),
2. Assyria (900-600 BC),
3. Babylon (606-536 BC) which is the lion Dan 7:4
4. Medo-Persia (536-330 BC) which is the bear Dan 7:5
5. Greece (330-146 BC) which is the 4-Headed leopard Dan 7:6
6. Rome (200 BC-400 AD),
7. Rome. Dan 7:7 the world will come back to the Roman type of Government.
Rev 17:11And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goes into perdition.
Note: And the beast that was, and is not (Satin as the antichrist himself), even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, (kings) and goes into perdition. There is going to be a newly reformed Roman type of Government that the anti-Christ will take advantage of.

DurbanDude
Jan 2nd 2009, 11:17 PM
I'm showing that the harlot is Israel.
I'm have not shown who the antichrist is.

Rev 17:8 The beast that you saw was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition(rev 20:3): and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder(Isa 14:10), whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is (Jesus was and is and is to come, a complete contrast to the devil.)

Ref. Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season (shall ascend out of the bottomless pit). Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (and go into perdition)
And;
Isa 14:10 All they shall speak and say unto you, Art thou also become weak as we? Are you become like unto us? (shall wonder)
Therefore, the beast is the devil.

Rev 17:10And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come(the 8th); and when he comes, he must continue a short while.
1. Egypt (1600-1200 BC),
2. Assyria (900-600 BC),
3. Babylon (606-536 BC) which is the lion Dan 7:4
4. Medo-Persia (536-330 BC) which is the bear Dan 7:5
5. Greece (330-146 BC) which is the 4-Headed leopard Dan 7:6
6. Rome (200 BC-400 AD),
7. Rome. Dan 7:7 the world will come back to the Roman type of Government.
Rev 17:11And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goes into perdition.
Note: And the beast that was, and is not (Satin as the antichrist himself), even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, (kings) and goes into perdition. There is going to be a newly reformed Roman type of Government that the anti-Christ will take advantage of.

How can the beast be Rome when Revelation says the beast "was" and "is not" , at a time when Rome was ruling?

Like I said before, I believe you have the roles reversed, the beast of Rev 17 is Israel , and the woman is Rome.

a) Before Judaism Babylon was the harlot city, representing world religion, yet representing it falsely without recognising the one true God.
b) During Judaism, when Judaism was the one true religion, Jerusalem represented the one true religion, yet was a harlot, being unfaithful to God.
c) During Christianity, the one true religion, which is the current city that claims to represent the true religion and yet misrepresents it? Rome.

Three prostitute cities. no matter how many verses you show to prove that Jerusalem has similarities to the woman city of Rev 17/18, Rome does match these chapters even better.

quiet dove
Jan 3rd 2009, 01:30 AM
I am probably out of line but taking that chance, I marvel at that anyone thinks Israel is any of those things in Rev: AC, Babylon, Whore or Rome. I'm sorry but that boggles my mind.

ross3421
Jan 3rd 2009, 02:42 AM
How can the beast be Rome when Revelation says the beast "was" and "is not" , at a time when Rome was ruling?

Like I said before, I believe you have the roles reversed, the beast of Rev 17 is Israel , and the woman is Rome.

a) Before Judaism Babylon was the harlot city, representing world religion, yet representing it falsely without recognising the one true God.
b) During Judaism, when Judaism was the one true religion, Jerusalem represented the one true religion, yet was a harlot, being unfaithful to God.
c) During Christianity, the one true religion, which is the current city that claims to represent the true religion and yet misrepresents it? Rome.

Three prostitute cities. no matter how many verses you show to prove that Jerusalem has similarities to the woman city of Rev 17/18, Rome does match these chapters even better.

The woman is the city Jerusalem. Jerusalem is the only city ever called a whore by name. As times past, this city will again play the harlot.

The beast which rides her is no other than son of perdition. The combination of all these things is Satan's kingdom. Hell on earth.

ross3421
Jan 3rd 2009, 02:48 AM
I am probably out of line but taking that chance, I marvel at that anyone thinks Israel is any of those things in Rev: AC, Babylon, Whore or Rome. I'm sorry but that boggles my mind.

Jerusalem will again play the harlot as Babylon

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Babylon is not the US, UN, or some other. Babylon (mystery) is Jerusalem whereby a KING will reside in rule the world ; sounds familiar..... The AC claims to be the most high so where do you think he would rule from?


The Whore

The bible only has spoken of one such city as a whore, Jerusalem.

Chapters which relate Jerusalem to being a WHORE.

Isaiah chapter 1
Jeremiah chapter 3
Ezekiel chapter 16
Hosea chapter 4

Rev. 17:16 - We see lovers will strip her, this is seen happening to Jerusalem in EZ 16:37.

Rev. 18: 4 - In addition, God called for “MY PEOPLE” to come out of this city and not be partakers of her sins. This reference is to those you will keep the commandments his people Israel.

Rev. 18:6 – This woman is rewarded double for her iniquity. This “double” punishment is seen to Jerusalem in Isaiah 4:2 and Jer. 16:18, 17:18.

Rev. 18:7 - She denies that she is a whore and a widow, Jerusalem is described as a widow in Lam 1:1.

Rev. 18:22, 23 – We see that the LIGHT OF A CANDLE and the VOICE OF THE BRIDEGROOM and SOUNS OF MILLSTONES shall be heard no more out from this city. This event is seen occurring to Jerusalem in Jer. 7:34, 16:9, 25:10, 33:11.


Do we not see that this city Babylon will counterfeit another woman see a couple of chapters later.


Still boggled?

ross3421
Jan 3rd 2009, 03:05 AM
John Marveled because he was shocked as found that the harolt is Israel.

I don't think he was "shocked" rather he "wondered" with great admiration at this site of the city. A city paved with gold and precious jewels. A city adorned in purple and sacarlet, a city likened unto the kingdom of God!

ross3421
Jan 3rd 2009, 03:12 AM
If you do an in depth study of all the detailed descriptions of the city of Rev 17/18 we can see that every description matches Rome (both current Rome and ancient Rome) perfectly, yet it takes a stretch of facts to fit in these descriptions with other cities. For example, the wearing of both violet and purple robes was a common practice in the leadership of ancient Rome, and the robes of the cardinals and bishops of current Rome (I mean the Vatican) are violet and purple.

A simple study would show the city of Re 17/18 likened unto the city seen in chapter 21. There are many other similarities. As for the colors purple and scarlet, biblically they are in reference to Jerusalem not Rome.

Biblically there has been only one scarlet city; Jerusalem

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Biblically, there was and will be only one city seen clothed with purple and scarlet; Jerusalem.

“And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornications”.

We see that this adulteress “Woman” , a future city, arrayed in scarlet just as God’s Temple was covered with scarlet from the offerings of the people on the Sabbath day.

Ex 26:1 “Moreover thou shalt make the tabernacle with ten curtains of fine twined linen, and blue, and purple, and scarlet...”

Ex 27:16 “And for the gate of the court shall be an hanging of twenty cubits, of blue, and purple, and scarlet....”

Ex 35:3-6 “Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day. And Moses spake unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, saying, This is the thing which the Lord commanded, saying, Take ye from among you an offering unto the Lord; gold, and silver, and brass, and blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen, and goat’s hair...”

Ex 35:23,25 “And every man, with whom was found blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen, and goat’s hair, and red skins of rams, and badger’s skins, brought them. V25 And all the women that were wise hearted did spin with their hands, and brought that which they had spun, both of blue, and of purple, and of scarlet, and of fine linen.”

Ex 36:7 “For the stuff they had was sufficient for all the work to make it, and too much.”

We see that just as Moses commanded the people to bring offerings of purple, scarlet, and fine linen to the city to worship so will the False Prophet command to do the same on the Sabbath and the city will be arrayed in these colors. An interesting note is that the words purple and scarlet are only used together in Exodus and the book of Revelation.


Mark.

third hero
Jan 3rd 2009, 04:59 AM
I am probably out of line but taking that chance, I marvel at that anyone thinks Israel is any of those things in Rev: AC, Babylon, Whore or Rome. I'm sorry but that boggles my mind.
Especially in light of Zechariah 14, I second that marvel!

third hero
Jan 3rd 2009, 05:32 AM
The woman is the city Jerusalem. Jerusalem is the only city ever called a whore by name. As times past, this city will again play the harlot.

The beast which rides her is no other than son of perdition. The combination of all these things is Satan's kingdom. Hell on earth.

Is Jerusalem Babylon?

Consider these verses.

...the LORD my God shall come, [and] all the saints with thee.... -Zechariah 14:5

....And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.... verse 9

...And [men] shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.... verse 12

...And it shall come to pass, [that] every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, [that] whoso will not come up of [all] the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. Verses 16-17.

According to Zechariah 14, the city of Jerusalem, at the time of the Lord's coming, will be designated as the city in which the King of Kings would reside. It is proclaimed that the city of Jerusalem will be safely inhabited. He goes so far as to say that there shall be "no more utter destruction", signifying that the city will not be completely destroyed.

Now, let's take a look at the Marvel of John, the whore known as Babylon. Let's look at the fate of that city.

And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.... Revelation 16:17

...And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.... verse 19.

...And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.... Revelation 17:16-17

...Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong [is] the Lord God who judgeth her. And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,... Revelation 18:8-9

...And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast [it] into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. verse 21

According to these verses, Babylon is completely anihilated! According to Revelation, Babylon is destroyed by the very same beast who ruled usding her. The city of Babylon is hit with famine, disease, and the smouldering flame, all in one hour. THe Angel ends up saying that not only will Babylon be destroyed, but there will be no more trace of her once she is gone. (As a personal note, the description found in 18:21 suggests to me that Babylon is destroyed by a nuclear Bomb, one that the Beast, the false prophet, and the coalition of kings agreed to set off).

Now to the dilemma. If Jerusalem is Babylon, then we have a problem. The Bible explicitly states that Jerusalem will be safely inhabited, while the Bible also says that Babylon will be utterly destroyed. Either Jerusalem can not be Babylon, or... well, I don't have to say it, do I?

Jerusalem, on the strength of Zechariah 14, can not be Babylon, and this makes sense. I say this because John goes through the detail in Revelation 11 to describe Jerusalem. In that chapter, Jerusalem is identified as the city that is "spiritually Sodom and Egypt", and John adds that the city is "where also our Lord was crucified", (Revelation 11:8). We know that our Lord was crucified in Jerusalem. If John goes through that much trouble to identify Jerusalem, why wouldn't he just say that Jerusalem was Babylon, unless Babylon is NOT Jerusalem? Seriously, He could have used the same references he used for Jerusalem in chapter 11 in chapter 17. But he didn't.

Why?

Because when He saw the woman, he was perplexed. How could the city that rules over all of the nations of the world Babylon? Remember, John told us that the Whore of Babylon is the city that rules over all of the nations of the world, which at the time of his writing was Rome, (Revelation 17:18).

DurbanDude
Jan 3rd 2009, 06:19 AM
I am probably out of line but taking that chance, I marvel at that anyone thinks Israel is any of those things in Rev: AC, Babylon, Whore or Rome. I'm sorry but that boggles my mind.

I didn't say Israel is the antichrist, Babylon,whore, or Rome.

Israel is the beast:

The final empire where the antichrist will be throned (Thessalonians), where the antichrist will plant the tents of his palace (Daniel 11). Israel is the final little horn that arises to take over the world (Daniel 7). Israel is the country that ceased to exist and re-appeared to amaze the non-believers of earth (Rev 17).

DurbanDude
Jan 3rd 2009, 06:29 AM
The woman is the city Jerusalem. Jerusalem is the only city ever called a whore by name. As times past, this city will again play the harlot.

The beast which rides her is no other than son of perdition. The combination of all these things is Satan's kingdom. Hell on earth.


The city rides the beast, not the other way around. Beasts are kingdoms , read Daniel 7. The whore city is riding the final empire of the beast. The antichrist is only called the beast because he is the leader of the final empire, but beasts are kingdoms.

The bible has never stated that there can be only one whore city. It makes sense that under the church age the whore city would be related to falsifying Chistianity which is the true religion of the church age.

No-one has yet given an explanation why Jerusalem fits Rev17:18 better than Rome:

17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

No-one has yet showed how all the details of Rev 17 and Rev 18 fit Jerusalem better than Rome. This city that is described is an economic powerhouse, a political powerhouse, has golden cups, a history of persecuting Christians , purple and scarlet robes etc etc All this fits Rome through the ages.

DurbanDude
Jan 3rd 2009, 06:49 AM
Especially in light of Zechariah 14, I second that marvel!

3H, Zechariah 14 is post second-coming. It is the age after the beast empire is destroyed. If you read Joel, you can see God's attitude towards Israel when He comes. Israel is unfaithful and in need of repentance and in need of recognising their true Messiah.

There are many misconceptions about the antichrist at the moment, because of the current Muslim threat. If you understand the bible, the antichrist controls Israel and the whole earth for 3.5 years, Israel is in no way exempt from the control of the antichrist.There is nothng in all scripture to indicate that Israel needs to be attacked at Armageddon by the antichrist, Israel is controlled by the antichrist for those 3.5 years. A careful reading of Daniel 11, from verse 36 will indicate that the antichrist is defending his home from attacks from the north and the east. This is an unexpected uprising against the throne of the antichrist, until then the antichrist has been ruling from Israel for 3.5 years. Even those who believe that the antichrist is the Muslim Mahdi agree that the antichrist rules from Jerusalem, Israel is therefore the country that rules the world, which makes Israel the beast of Revelation 17, the 8th empire.

DurbanDude
Jan 3rd 2009, 07:15 AM
A simple study would show the city of Re 17/18 likened unto the city seen in chapter 21. There are many other similarities. As for the colors purple and scarlet, biblically they are in reference to Jerusalem not Rome.

Biblically there has been only one scarlet city; Jerusalem

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Biblically, there was and will be only one city seen clothed with purple and scarlet; Jerusalem.

“And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornications”.

We see that this adulteress “Woman” , a future city, arrayed in scarlet just as God’s Temple was covered with scarlet from the offerings of the people on the Sabbath day.

Ex 26:1 “Moreover thou shalt make the tabernacle with ten curtains of fine twined linen, and blue, and purple, and scarlet...”

Ex 27:16 “And for the gate of the court shall be an hanging of twenty cubits, of blue, and purple, and scarlet....”

Ex 35:3-6 “Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day. And Moses spake unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, saying, This is the thing which the Lord commanded, saying, Take ye from among you an offering unto the Lord; gold, and silver, and brass, and blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen, and goat’s hair...”

Ex 35:23,25 “And every man, with whom was found blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen, and goat’s hair, and red skins of rams, and badger’s skins, brought them. V25 And all the women that were wise hearted did spin with their hands, and brought that which they had spun, both of blue, and of purple, and of scarlet, and of fine linen.”

Ex 36:7 “For the stuff they had was sufficient for all the work to make it, and too much.”

We see that just as Moses commanded the people to bring offerings of purple, scarlet, and fine linen to the city to worship so will the False Prophet command to do the same on the Sabbath and the city will be arrayed in these colors. An interesting note is that the words purple and scarlet are only used together in Exodus and the book of Revelation.


Mark.

Mark, thanks for showing me those verses about purple and scarlet. Please note however that many colors are mentioned in those verses. Rome is specifically associated with purple and scarlet in a very visible way. Whenever the leaders of Rome (vatican) meet they are all in purple and scarlet for this is the dresscode of the cardinals and Bishops.

Rev 18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
There is nothing else in scripture to indicate that Jerusalem will be utterly burned with fire. There are many verses that speak of the final survival of Jerusalem.

The use of the present tense in Rev 17 fits in with Rome being the woman, and Israel being the country that "is not" yet will come. Other explanations involve interpreting the tense differently to its literal meaning , that the city was ruling AT THAT TIME, and the beast had ceased to exist AT THAT TIME.

ross3421
Jan 3rd 2009, 04:05 PM
Is Jerusalem Babylon?

Consider these verses.

...the LORD my God shall come, [and] all the saints with thee.... -Zechariah 14:5

....And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.... verse 9

...And [men] shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.... verse 12

...And it shall come to pass, [that] every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, [that] whoso will not come up of [all] the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. Verses 16-17.

According to Zechariah 14, the city of Jerusalem, at the time of the Lord's coming, will be designated as the city in which the King of Kings would reside. It is proclaimed that the city of Jerusalem will be safely inhabited. He goes so far as to say that there shall be "no more utter destruction", signifying that the city will not be completely destroyed.

Old Jerusalem will be destroyed, NEW Jerusalem will be safely inhabited.

ross3421
Jan 3rd 2009, 04:23 PM
The city rides the beast, not the other way around. Beasts are kingdoms , read Daniel 7. The whore city is riding the final empire of the beast. The antichrist is only called the beast because he is the leader of the final empire, but beasts are kingdoms.

OK.


The bible has never stated that there can be only one whore city. It makes sense that under the church age the whore city would be related to falsifying Chistianity which is the true religion of the church age.

The bible has only called one city a whore, Jerusalem.


No-one has yet showed how all the details of Rev 17 and Rev 18 fit Jerusalem better than Rome. This city that is described is an economic powerhouse, a political powerhouse, has golden cups, a history of persecuting Christians , purple and scarlet robes etc etc All this fits Rome through the ages.


Re 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus:

Jerusalem is the city whereby all the prophets have been slain.

Rev. 17:16 - We see lovers will strip her, this is seen happening to Jerusalem in EZ 16:37.

Rev. 18: 4 - In addition, God called for “MY PEOPLE” to come out of this city and not be partakers of her sins. This reference is to those you will keep the commandments his people Israel.

Rev. 18:6 – This woman is rewarded double for her iniquity. This “double” punishment is seen to Jerusalem in Isaiah 4:2 and Jer. 16:18, 17:18.

Rev. 18:7 - She denies that she is a whore and a widow, Jerusalem is described as a widow in Lam 1:1.

Rev. 18:22, 23 – We see that the LIGHT OF A CANDLE and the VOICE OF THE BRIDEGROOM and SOUNS OF MILLSTONES shall be heard no more out from this city. This event is seen occurring to Jerusalem in Jer. 7:34, 16:9, 25:10, 33:11.


Jerusalem will be this city. A city which will rise in the midst of a wilderness after all other cities including Rome are destroyed.

Re 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
Isa 14:17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof;


Ask yourself, would the AC really set himself up in Rome if he is claiming to be God? No rather Jerusalem.

ross3421
Jan 3rd 2009, 04:38 PM
Mark, thanks for showing me those verses about purple and scarlet. Please note however that many colors are mentioned in those verses. Rome is specifically associated with purple and scarlet in a very visible way. Whenever the leaders of Rome (vatican) meet they are all in purple and scarlet for this is the dresscode of the cardinals and Bishops.

Biblically speaking.


Rev 18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
There is nothing else in scripture to indicate that Jerusalem will be utterly burned with fire.

Ultimately is not the old earth and everything in it burned with fire when Christ returns?

Isa 31:9 And he shall pass over to his strong hold for fear, and his princes shall be afraid of the ensign, saith the LORD, whose fire is in Zion, and his furnace in Jerusalem.

Jer 17:27 But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.

Eze 15:6 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; As the vine tree among the trees of the forest, which I have given to the fire for fuel, so will I give the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
Eze 15:7 And I will set my face against them; they shall go out from one fire, and another fire shall devour them; and ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I set my face against them.


There are many verses that speak of the final survival of Jerusalem.

Yes Jerusalem will be inhabited again. New Jerusalem.


The use of the present tense in Rev 17 fits in with Rome being the woman, and Israel being the country that "is not" yet will come. Other explanations involve interpreting the tense differently to its literal meaning , that the city was ruling AT THAT TIME, and the beast had ceased to exist AT THAT TIME.

In what "time" is John seing this vision?. I would expect he is seeing events in the future. If you are saying it deals with Rome and 70ad, Jerusalem was burned with fire not Rome.....

Re 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

The above is not speak of a city or country but of the beast which you pointed out correctly is a person. This is a description of Satan.

Mark

quiet dove
Jan 3rd 2009, 09:11 PM
I didn't say Israel is the antichrist, Babylon,whore, or Rome.

Israel is the beast:

The final empire where the antichrist will be throned (Thessalonians), where the antichrist will plant the tents of his palace (Daniel 11). Israel is the final little horn that arises to take over the world (Daniel 7). Israel is the country that ceased to exist and re-appeared to amaze the non-believers of earth (Rev 17).

No, I'm sorry, I was not assuming you said Israel was all those things, just referring to the things in general that many have said. Sorry for the confusion.

But even just the AC, I don't understand. I agree they, along with many others will fall for the lies of the AC, but not that they will be the AC.

third hero
Jan 4th 2009, 05:22 AM
Old Jerusalem will be destroyed, NEW Jerusalem will be safely inhabited.

At the point of Zechariah's writing, there is no difference between Jerusalem of this earth, and the "New Jerusalem" of Revelation 21-22. Also, there is no mentioning of Jerusalem being destroyed in this passage, but rather, it's continued survival, even after the nations attacked and captured her, she will not be utterly destroyed (Zechariah 14:12). Besides, the dimensions of New Jerusalem are too big to fit on this planet, as New Jerusalem would be the size of half of this planet.

DurbanDude
Jan 4th 2009, 11:43 AM
No, I'm sorry, I was not assuming you said Israel was all those things, just referring to the things in general that many have said. Sorry for the confusion.

But even just the AC, I don't understand. I agree they, along with many others will fall for the lies of the AC, but not that they will be the AC.

I didn't say that Israel is the antichrist , this sounds confusing to call a country the antichrist and is wrong.

The beast is an empire, the antichrist is the ruler of that empire. If the antichrist rules from Israel, and there are many indications that he does, just this fact makes Israel the beast empire. The final 8th empire to rule the world. The country that was , and is not, and is to come.

Sometimes the bible definitely does use the term "beast" to refer to the beast's ruler, the antichrist, but to fully understand verses about the beast we must keep in mind that the symbolism of the word beast is predominately referring to the empire and not the person who rules it.

DurbanDude
Jan 4th 2009, 12:03 PM
Rev 18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
Your logic here is a little confusing. This is the verse that I was referring to you, and saying that this is referring to Rome, and I said this can't refer to Jerusalem because Jerusalem survives and this verse is saying that Jerusalem is burned with fire, so it cannot be Jerusalem.




Ultimately is not the old earth and everything in it burned with fire when Christ returns?



Definitely not, there are about 20 verses that are very clear that the earth will NOT be burned with fire when Christ returns , and will survive.




In what "time" is John seing this vision?. I would expect he is seeing events in the future. If you are saying it deals with Rome and 70ad, Jerusalem was burned with fire not Rome.....


He is seeing this vision in the first century AD, when Rome ruled, and Jerusalem had been destroyed.



Re 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

The above is not speak of a city or country but of the beast which you pointed out correctly is a person. This is a description of Satan.


The symbolism of beasts represent kingdoms, not satan.

DurbanDude
Jan 4th 2009, 12:17 PM
Re 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus:

Jerusalem is the city whereby all the prophets have been slain.

Rev. 17:16 - We see lovers will strip her, this is seen happening to Jerusalem in EZ 16:37.

Rev. 18: 4 - In addition, God called for “MY PEOPLE” to come out of this city and not be partakers of her sins. This reference is to those you will keep the commandments his people Israel.

Rev. 18:6 – This woman is rewarded double for her iniquity. This “double” punishment is seen to Jerusalem in Isaiah 4:2 and Jer. 16:18, 17:18.

Rev. 18:7 - She denies that she is a whore and a widow, Jerusalem is described as a widow in Lam 1:1.

Rev. 18:22, 23 – We see that the LIGHT OF A CANDLE and the VOICE OF THE BRIDEGROOM and SOUNS OF MILLSTONES shall be heard no more out from this city. This event is seen occurring to Jerusalem in Jer. 7:34, 16:9, 25:10, 33:11.


Jerusalem will be this city. A city which will rise in the midst of a wilderness after all other cities including Rome are destroyed.

Re 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
Isa 14:17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof;


Ask yourself, would the AC really set himself up in Rome if he is claiming to be God? No rather Jerusalem.

I asked that you would give proof that Jerusalem fits better than Rome, you just showed me some reasons why Jerusalem can fit. Rome fits better because it relates to the whore of the church age. Rome has also killed prophets, but prophets of the church age. Rome displays itself as the head of Christianity and the pope's title is Christ's representative on earth. Definitely the "false wife" of God, the prostitute, not the true bride/church.

I agree with you that the antichrist will rule from Jerusalem and not from Rome. Many have recognised the truth of this, but have the roles the wrong way around:

Rome is the city that rides the beast of Revelation
Israel is the beast , the final empire that rules earth, under the control of Rome. This is the only way to explain how the 4th kingdom of Daniel 7, Rome, exists when Revelation was written, yet the Revelation beast is described as NOT existing when Revelation was written.

Prophecy Countdown
Jan 4th 2009, 01:35 PM
I am probably out of line but taking that chance, I marvel at that anyone thinks Israel is any of those things in Rev: AC, Babylon, Whore or Rome. I'm sorry but that boggles my mind.

Jerusalem is the whore. See Ezekiel 16: 1 - 63 where the Lord says so.

quiet dove
Jan 4th 2009, 08:26 PM
Jerusalem is the whore. See Ezekiel 16: 1 - 63 where the Lord says so.

I disagree, I mean, I agree that Jerusalem is called an unfaithful wife and a harlot at times in the OT, but Jerusalem is also called the apple of God's eye, in the OT. Just because Jerusalem is called a whore in the OT does not make her the whore spoken of in Revelation.

Within the text of Ez 16 the teaching is that by turning from God and worshiping false idols, Israel played the harlot, she is compared in her behavior to a whore, the unfaithful wife. But what was her lover, false religion. And the great harlot of Rev is (a) false religion, not Jerusalem, though many in Jerusalem will no doubt follow the great harlot

ross3421
Jan 4th 2009, 08:52 PM
At the point of Zechariah's writing, there is no difference between Jerusalem of this earth, and the "New Jerusalem" of Revelation 21-22.

I am not sure your reasoning here.......But all true prophets like Zechariah are given the understanding and write of things to come, even New Jerusalem.


Also, there is no mentioning of Jerusalem being destroyed in this passage, but rather, it's continued survival, even after the nations attacked and captured her, she will not be utterly destroyed (Zechariah 14:12).

Zec 14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

The verse says there will be "no more" utter destruction which would mean utter destruction had just occurred. Though earthly Jerusalem is destroyed Jerusalem will again be inhabited in the new earth. The battle taking place in the chapter should be in no question the battle of Armaggedon, second coming and the destruction which would follow. Many other passages align with Zech account and give varying details with some speaking of Jerusalem's destruction some speak of the new heavens and earth. This can be easily obtained by just word searching key phrases. "all nation gathered", "day of the Lord" ect....

Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle;

All nations shall be gathered.

Isa 66:18 For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.

Isa 66:20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.


Zep 3:8 Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.



Besides, the dimensions of New Jerusalem are too big to fit on this planet, as New Jerusalem would be the size of half of this planet.[/QUOTE]

I think New Jerusalem would be 1500 miles square.


Mark

ross3421
Jan 4th 2009, 09:02 PM
And the great harlot of Rev is (a) false religion, not Jerusalem, though many in Jerusalem will no doubt follow the great harlot

The woman is a city not a religon.

Re 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Mark

quiet dove
Jan 4th 2009, 09:23 PM
The woman is a city not a religon.

Re 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Mark

yea, with a false religion

ross3421
Jan 4th 2009, 09:25 PM
Rev 18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

Your logic here is a little confusing. This is the verse that I was referring to you, and saying that this is referring to Rome, and I said this can't refer to Jerusalem because Jerusalem survives and this verse is saying that Jerusalem is burned with fire, so it cannot be Jerusalem.

The logic is that yes Jerusalem survives and yes we as born again believers survive but as new. The old is destroyed.

If the whole old earth is destroyed would that not include current Jerusalem?

Zep 3:8 Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.



Definitely not, there are about 20 verses that are very clear that the earth will NOT be burned with fire when Christ returns , and will survive.

Can you post some of them for review. There are many which say the opposite.



He is seeing this vision in the first century AD, when Rome ruled, and Jerusalem had been destroyed.

OK So are you saying he is was speaking of the previous destruction of Rome or one supposedly to come?



The symbolism of beasts represent kingdoms, not satan.[/QUOTE]

There are many beasts which can symbolize kingdoms agree but there are also kings of these kingdoms which are referred to beasts as well.

ross3421
Jan 4th 2009, 09:36 PM
yea, with a false religion

Is there really a "false religion"? I know many state this however I think incorrectly. At the time of Babylon there really is no religion on the earth at all. We have one on the earth one claiming to be God which the premise is not false but the individual. The message would be all those on the earth to worship one God which is false not nessesarily due to the message rather the individual.

quiet dove
Jan 4th 2009, 09:41 PM
Is there really a "false religion"? I know many state this however I think incorrectly. At the time of Babylon there really is no religion on the earth at all. We have one on the earth one claiming to be God which the premise is not false but the individual. The message would be all those on the earth to worship one God which is false not nessesarily due to the message rather the individual.

Those who receive the mark and worship the beast. And one claiming to be God that is not God makes the message and the person both false doesn't it?

ross3421
Jan 4th 2009, 11:24 PM
Those who receive the mark and worship the beast. And one claiming to be God that is not God makes the message and the person both false doesn't it?

The person make the message false not nessesarily the message itself. This will be the deception and the strong delusion. The message, the miricles ect... will not contradict scripture other than the person making the claim. Only the Holy Spirit will give those discerment in those days.

quiet dove
Jan 5th 2009, 12:25 AM
The person make the message false not nessesarily the message itself. This will be the deception and the strong delusion. The message, the miricles ect... will not contradict scripture other than the person making the claim. Only the Holy Spirit will give those discerment in those days.

I'm sorry ross but that contradicts itself, how does a false profit do the miracles of the true God?

I am not saying a false prophet can't do false miracles, but the true God will not be any part of that doing of miracles. That would be like when Moses and Aaron did the miracles of God, saying the magicians of Pharoh did the miracles of God to only they were false prophets.

None of it is going to contradict scripture and scripture tells us that there is such thing as false signs and wonders, done by false prophets and neither the miracle or the prophet are of God.

third hero
Jan 5th 2009, 04:41 AM
Jerusalem is the whore. See Ezekiel 16: 1 - 63 where the Lord says so.

eth⋅no⋅cen⋅trism

   /ˌɛθhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngnoʊˈsɛnhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngtrɪzhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngəm/ Show Spelled Pronunciation http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/IPA_pron_key.html) [eth-noh-sen-triz-uhhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngm] Show IPA Pronunciation http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/Spell_pron_key.html)
–noun 1.Sociology. the belief in the inherent superiority of one's own ethnic group or culture.2.a tendency to view alien groups or cultures from the perspective of one's own.
Origin:
1905–10; ethno- (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ethno-&db=luna) + cent(e)r + -ism (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=-ism&db=luna) http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ethnocentrism

I want you to read the second definition. This is common, especially in eschatology. Many view all scripture as concurrent, and the portions of scripture that were written for a certain time period is missed, because of the idea of concurrency.

Ezekiel 16, according to your post, is victim of this error. I am not saying that you are dumb, so please do not go there. I am only highlighting a common mstake that many people have made, whether it be subconscious or otherwise.

From what I have read, Ezekiel 16 is the Lord telling Ezekiel to remind the people of the whoredom that Israel had done before the Dispersion to Babylon. The reason why I know this is because of the context of the passage, which can be derived by dating the book. Ezekiel was a prophet for the people during the Babylonian captivity. At that time, God did indeed call Jerusalem a whore, because of all of the things listed in Ezekiel 16. The point of Ezekiel writing this was so that those Israelites who would read that would repent of the sins of their forefathers, and cease from committing the same things that they were guilty of doing. We have a similar reference to Jerusalem in Revelation 11, which is the reason why that city is called "spiritual Sodom and Egypt".

However, just because Jerusalem is labeled a whore by God in Ezekiel 16 does not make it the whore in Revelation. The critical identifier is Revelation 17:18, and Jerusalem did not rule over the kings of the world back when John wrote the book.

So, if the evidence doesn't match, then the city in question has to be eliminated as a posibility. Although Ezekiel 16 had identified Jerusalem as a whore, the city paid for her sins when Nebachadnezzar destroyed the city and the temple. Ezekiel 16 reminded the Israelites of the reason why God called Nebachadnezzar His hammer.

third hero
Jan 5th 2009, 05:25 AM
I am not sure your reasoning here.......But all true prophets like Zechariah are given the understanding and write of things to come, even New Jerusalem.

It is my opinion that it is best to not interject scripture that has been written at least 800 years after the original writing of Zechariah. New Jerusalem is a new testament concept birthed from the book of Revelation. Interjecting "New Jerusalem" into Zechariah is only feesible only if there is substantial evidence that links the passages together. Maybe you see something I do not, but I can only say that I find no scripture that links Zechariah 14 to any portion of Revelation other than chapters 19-20. New Jerusalem is described in chapter 21.


Zec 14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

The verse says there will be "no more" utter destruction which would mean utter destruction had just occurred. Though earthly Jerusalem is destroyed Jerusalem will again be inhabited in the new earth. The battle taking place in the chapter should be in no question the battle of Armaggedon, second coming and the destruction which would follow. Many other passages align with Zech account and give varying details with some speaking of Jerusalem's destruction some speak of the new heavens and earth. This can be easily obtained by just word searching key phrases. "all nation gathered", "day of the Lord" ect....

I disagree. The destruction that happens in Zechariah 14 is what happened before the Lord comes, which is the desolation of Jerusalem by the nations that will fight against her, (Zechariah 14:1-2). The destruction of Jerusalem will be the catalyst for the Lord restoring the city, as the Lord is mentioned in verse 3 as being the one who goes after those who attacked and desolated Jerusalem. I have the definition of desolate and desolation in another thread, I think it's Understanding Zechariah 14. I am not sure, but that's my best guess. My point is that in Zehcariah 14:1-2, the destruction of Jerusalem is explained, and in my opinion, there is no difference between desolation and destruction. The "utter destruction" in Zech 14 is not the destruction of the entire world.

Besides, in order for your theory to make scriptural sense, you have to factor one thing into the equation. In Zechariah 14, the heathen are mentioned as being in existence, a component absent from Revelation 21-22's version of New Jerusalem. In fact, this is what the Bible says about the folks who are able to enter into New Jerusalem.


And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. -Revelation 21:27

No one who is of any sort of sin can enter into New Jerusalem, or the new earth that New Jerusalem will sit on. For you see, Revelation 21:7-8 tells us that all of the wicked are in the Lake of Fire. The fact that this Jerusalem that is mentioned in Zechariah 14:16-18 has heathen families going into it tells me that this is NOT the New Jerusalem of Revelation 21-22. There can not be any sin, refusal to obey God, or any other sinning, because the old system will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire by the time New Jerusalem comes into existence.


Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle;

All nations shall be gathered.

Isa 66:18 For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.

Isa 66:20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

Did you just superimpose Isaiah 66 with Zechariah 14:2? How? The context of Zehcariah 14:2 is the idea that they will not only fight against Jerusalem, but there are details of what they are going to do once they attack Jerusalem. There is no connection between Isaiah 66 and Zechariah 14:2. Context is the key here.

Moreover, the Lord in Isaiah 66:20 causes all of the nations to bring to Jerusalem the Israelites from their perspective countries. Moreover, the Lord declares in verse 22 that just as the Lord is going to make a new heavens and a new earth, so the Israelites shall remain on the earth. The two are only connected by the declaration that God is going to see to it that the Israelites are going to remain a people on the face of the earth.

He is not saying that He is going to make a new heaven and earth, and on that new planet, He will sustain the people of Israel. He is saying that He is going to sustain the families of Jacob, and He bases this promise on the fact that He is going to make a new heaven and a new earth. The context is the key here. God is telling Isaiah that he will have the nations bring to Jerusalem the Israelites that had settled into their countries. This is why verses 1-19 and 21 are so important. These scriptures deal with something else entirely, and not the things in which Zechariah 14 deal with.

Bringing the nations to attack Jerusalem is definitely different than breinging Israelites to Jerusalem. This is not a match, and Isaiah 66 has, IMHO, no linkage to Zechariah 14:2. The contexts are too different. The nations in Zehcariah 14:2 are destroying the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the nations in Isaiah 66 are bringing them back to their country of origin. Night and day is what comes to mind.

ross3421
Jan 5th 2009, 10:53 PM
I'm sorry ross but that contradicts itself, how does a false profit do the miracles of the true God?

I did not say he will do miricles of the true God but miricles LIKE a God.

Re 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast;


None of it is going to contradict scripture and scripture tells us that there is such thing as false signs and wonders, done by false prophets and neither the miracle or the prophet are of God.

I am not sure there is such a thing as a "false" miricle rather a deception. But I never said the miricles are of God??

ross3421
Jan 5th 2009, 11:48 PM
New Jerusalem is a new testament concept birthed from the book of Revelation.

??



Interjecting "New Jerusalem" into Zechariah is only feesible only if there is substantial evidence that links the passages together. Maybe you see something I do not, but I can only say that I find no scripture that links Zechariah 14 to any portion of Revelation other than chapters 19-20. New Jerusalem is described in chapter 21.

And chapter 22. Do you really think these are different?

Re 22:1 And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

Zec 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.



Besides, in order for your theory to make scriptural sense, you have to factor one thing into the equation. In Zechariah 14, the heathen are mentioned as being in existence, a component absent from Revelation 21-22's version of New Jerusalem. In fact, this is what the Bible says about the folks who are able to enter into New Jerusalem.

And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. -Revelation 21:27

No one who is of any sort of sin can enter into New Jerusalem, or the new earth that New Jerusalem will sit on. For you see, Revelation 21:7-8 tells us that all of the wicked are in the Lake of Fire. The fact that this Jerusalem that is mentioned in Zechariah 14:16-18 has heathen families going into it tells me that this is NOT the New Jerusalem of Revelation 21-22. There can not be any sin, refusal to obey God, or any other sinning, because the old system will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire by the time New Jerusalem comes into existence.



New Jerusalem contains a city and land surounding which will be inhabited. Both Zech 14 and Rev show there are some which will not be able to enter. I see that there is offspring in the new earth which will choose or serve which satisfies the understanding of the text.

The assumption is that sin causes our actions.........It is possible I believe that a person can be disobediant and not have sin. Case in point Adam and Eve, they disobeyed but were not yet with sin. God did not make them with sin. Sin did not enter till they ate from the tree. Man is made with free will to chosse right or wrong with or wiithout sin. Sin (death) is a state and a consequence of our actions.

Though there will be an absence of sin (death) in the new earth does not preclude those from still having a free will to choose. The new earth will not be made up of a bunch of robots but filled from generation to generation of inhabinants serving or not serving. God will rule supreme and will discipline those which choose not to serve.


Did you just superimpose Isaiah 66 with Zechariah 14:2? How? The context of Zehcariah 14:2 is the idea that they will not only fight against Jerusalem, but there are details of what they are going to do once they attack Jerusalem. There is no connection between Isaiah 66 and Zechariah 14:2.


Moreover, the Lord in Isaiah 66:20 causes all of the nations to bring to Jerusalem the Israelites from their perspective countries.

He is not saying that He is going to make a new heaven and earth, and on that new planet, He will sustain the people of Israel. He is saying that He is going to sustain the families of Jacob, and He bases this promise on the fact that He is going to make a new heaven and a new earth. The context is the key here. God is telling Isaiah that he will have the nations bring to Jerusalem the Israelites that had settled into their countries. This is why verses 1-19 and 21 are so important. These scriptures deal with something else entirely, and not the things in which Zechariah 14 deal with.

Bringing the nations to attack Jerusalem is definitely different than breinging Israelites to Jerusalem. This is not a match, and Isaiah 66 has, IMHO, no linkage to Zechariah 14:2. The contexts are too different. The nations in Zehcariah 14:2 are destroying the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the nations in Isaiah 66 are bringing them back to their country of origin. Night and day is what comes to mind.[/QUOTE]

Verse 66:20 speaks of a time already in the new heaverns and earth......"to my holy mountain" here is a reference to God and New Jerusalem. Before Christ returns Israel (ie 144,000) does God's will and fight against this earthly whore Jerusalem. Afterwards, these 144,000 brought back up from the grave "dry bones" then come up to holy Jerusalem to worship.

Isa 66:20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.

Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

quiet dove
Jan 6th 2009, 12:01 AM
I did not say he will do miricles of the true God but miricles LIKE a God.

Re 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast;



I am not sure there is such a thing as a "false" miricle rather a deception. But I never said the miricles are of God??
Ok, sorry, I misunderstood you then, me sorry.

third hero
Jan 6th 2009, 03:16 AM
??

Before the book of Revelation was written, the city known as New Jerusalem did not exist in scripture. There were allusions to it, like the one found in Hebrews, but there was no specific mentioning of New Jerusalem. Hence the city of New Jerusalem is a New Testament concept, one that would be foreign to Zechariah, Isaiah, Jeremiah, and all of the Old Testament prophets scribes, priests, and rigthteous folk.



And chapter 22. Do you really think these are different?

Re 22:1 And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

Zec 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

Yes, they are that different. Notice the description of the living waters in Zechariah, and compare them to this in Revelation 21.

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. -Revelation 21:1

The first description of the New heaven and the New earth is the fact that there are no more seas. The seas are present in Zechariah 14'sd version. This proves to me that these are not congruent. The Jerusalem in Zechriah 14 can not be the New Jerusalem in Revelation 21.


The assumption is that sin causes our actions.........It is possible I believe that a person can be disobediant and not have sin. Case in point Adam and Eve, they disobeyed but were not yet with sin. God did not make them with sin. Sin did not enter till they ate from the tree. Man is made with free will to chosse right or wrong with or wiithout sin. Sin (death) is a state and a consequence of our actions.

Death is the result of sin. Sin is the act of disobedience. The Lord said to Adam that once he ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, he would die. The act of disobedience gave birth to sin. Sin is not death. Sin brings about death, as Adam clearly shows us. It is not possible to disobey God and not sin.

sin 1 (sĭn) Pronunciation Key (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahd4/pronkey.html)
n.

A transgression of a religious or moral law, especially when deliberate.
Theology
Deliberate disobedience to the known will of God.
A condition of estrangement from God resulting from such disobedience.

Something regarded as being shameful, deplorable, or utterly wrong.
intr.v. sinned, sin·ning, sins


To violate a religious or moral law.
To commit an offense or violation.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sin



Though there will be an absence of sin (death) in the new earth does not preclude those from still having a free will to choose. The new earth will not be made up of a bunch of robots but filled from generation to generation of inhabinants serving or not serving. God will rule supreme and will discipline those which choose not to serve.


The old order, when the New heaven and New earth arrives, will be destroyed. The people who will inhabit the New Jerusalem will be those who have chosen in this life to honor and obey and serve Lord Jesus, from all eras. The choice will have already been made, and there will no longer be a sinner in existence.

Besides, sin is not death. Death is the payment for sin. Sin is the act of disobeying God.


Verse 66:20 speaks of a time already in the new heaverns and earth......"to my holy mountain" here is a reference to God and New Jerusalem. Before Christ returns Israel (ie 144,000) does God's will and fight against this earthly whore Jerusalem. Afterwards, these 144,000 brought back up from the grave "dry bones" then come up to holy Jerusalem to worship.

The term "my holy mountain" is an Old Testament phrase that meant Jerusalem, or Mount Zion. This was never a reference to New Jerusalem, as the term all but disappeared from the New Testament epistles. Not even Lord Jesus used that term while He walked the earth, not even once. The role of the 144,000, I disagree with your sentiments, but that would cause a derailing, one in which I will not go into here. You can start another thread and we can hash out the 144,000's role.


Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

This states the condition of the earth once the Lord rules it from Jerusalem, aka "my holy mountain". When the Lord takes over this world, the world will be transformed into a world of peace. With God ruling the world like He does Heaven, there will be no more war, because the Lord will settle all disputes. The Lord will rule the entire world from Jerusalem, as both Isaiah 65, Psalm 2, Zechariah 14, and Revelation 20 tell us.

But I fear that we are getting of topic here. We are talking about the reason why John Marvelled when he seen the woman riding the seven-headed beast.

DurbanDude
Jan 6th 2009, 10:50 AM
Zep 3:8 Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.

Can you post some of them for review. There are many which say the opposite.


If I am consumed or burning with jealousy, does this mean that I am literally on fire? Relating fire to jealousy is a common descriptive term, probably referring to how strong the emotion of jealousy is, it is a highly destructive emotion, which can involve intense emotional focus of a person's whole being. The whole earth experiences the wrath of God's jealousy.


Here are those verses about the survival of earth:

Ecclesiastes 1:4 says, "the earth abideth forever."

Psalm 78:69 says, "the earth which he hath established forever."

Psalm 93:1b says, "The world also is established, that it cannot be moved."

Psalm 96:10 says, “the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved.”

Psalm 104:5 says, "Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed forever."

Psalm 148:4-6 says, “Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens. Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created. He hath also stablished them for ever and ever.”

Although amills often explain Zech 14 in terms of a symbolic representation of the church age, I believe that it fits better into a post second coming world and should be literally translated. The symbolism of "heathens" either worshipping the Lord or being punished does not fit the church age. The only explanation of Zechariah 14 that fits well, is of a survival of earth and heathens after the second coming:
Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.


How can certain regions have birds surviving in those regions if the whole earth is burnt up? :
Isaiah 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
34:9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
34:10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.
34:11 But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness

Just certain regions, but not the whole earth, are desolate after the second coming, ****tim is blessed:
Joel 3:18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth out of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of ****tim.
3:19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.

A sixth of gog survives:
Ezekiel 39:1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
39:2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:

People REMAIN on the face of the earth after the second coming:
39:14 And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth, to cleanse it: after the end of seven months shall they sear

There is old age and children after the second coming when the Lord RETURNS to Zion(ie not a new Zion):
Zechariah 8:3 Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.
8:4 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, and every man with his staff in his hand for very age.
8:5 And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the streets thereof.




OK So are you saying he is was speaking of the previous destruction of Rome or one supposedly to come?


To come


There are many beasts which can symbolize kingdoms agree but there are also kings of these kingdoms which are referred to beasts as well.

True, the leaders of those beast kingdoms are sometimes referred to as beasts themselves. But you were saying that that the beast is Satan, which I disagreed with.

ross3421
Jan 7th 2009, 03:05 AM
If I am consumed or burning with jealousy, does this mean that I am literally on fire? Relating fire to jealousy is a common descriptive term, probably referring to how strong the emotion of jealousy is, it is a highly destructive emotion, which can involve intense emotional focus of a person's whole being. The whole earth experiences the wrath of God's jealousy.

Eze 23:25 And I will set my jealousy against thee, and they shall deal furiously with thee: they shall take away thy nose and thine ears; and thy remnant shall fall by the sword: they shall take thy sons and thy daughters; and thy residue shall be devoured by the fire.

Eze 38:19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;

Eze 38:22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.

Zep 3:8 Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.

Many many scriptures show the earth being devoured by fire upon Christ's return.


Here are those verses about the survival of earth:

Ecclesiastes 1:4 says, "the earth abideth forever."

Psalm 78:69 says, "the earth which he hath established forever."

Psalm 93:1b says, "The world also is established, that it cannot be moved."

Psalm 96:10 says, “the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved.”

Psalm 104:5 says, "Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed forever."

Psalm 148:4-6 says, “Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens. Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created. He hath also stablished them for ever and ever.”

What God creates can never be iniliated. Though the old earth passes, and it is destroyed, it is purified of sin through fire just as every one of us.


Although amills often explain Zech 14 in terms of a symbolic representation of the church age, I believe that it fits better into a post second coming world and should be literally translated. The symbolism of "heathens" either worshipping the Lord or being punished does not fit the church age. The only explanation of Zechariah 14 that fits well, is of a survival of earth and heathens after the second coming:

We agree! Though the old earth and vessels are purfied through fire and acceptable to remain forevermore.


Just certain regions, but not the whole earth, are desolate after the second coming,

The whole earth is purified not portions........

When does this happen in your view?

2pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


True, the leaders of those beast kingdoms are sometimes referred to as beasts themselves. But you were saying that that the beast is Satan, which I disagreed with.

Can a man ascend up out of the pit?

Re 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Re 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

DurbanDude
Jan 7th 2009, 07:27 AM
Eze 23:25 And I will set my jealousy against thee, and they shall deal furiously with thee: they shall take away thy nose and thine ears; and thy remnant shall fall by the sword: they shall take thy sons and thy daughters; and thy residue shall be devoured by the fire.

Eze 38:19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;

Eze 38:22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.

Zep 3:8 Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.

Many many scriptures show the earth being devoured by fire upon Christ's return.
.

I was hoping that you would show me some of those verses then. I gave you verses to show that the whole earth would not be destroyed, does your lack of response to those verses indicate that you believe the bible contradicts itself?

As for your verses listed above, Ezekiel 23 is clearly speaking about Israel's judgment specifically, this could have been fulfilled in the Babylonian attack, or the Roman attack of 70 AD.

Ezekiel 38 enforces the pre-mill view that there will be a great shaking, hailstones, and a great earthquake on on the Day of the Lord. It says nothing about the entire earth being destroyed, this is not even implied, in fact Ezekiel 39 goes on to describe that a sixth part of Gog will be left, and also says that people will REMAIN on the earth and clean up the bodies for 7 months.


The whole earth is purified not portions........

I showed you verses that describe portions of this earth being made desolate and others are blessed eg ****tim is blessed after the second coming. Is this region re-created on your new earth? And other regions re-created in a desolated state:
Joel 3:18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth out of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of ****tim.
3:19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.





When does this happen in your view?

2pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


I believe the first half of the verse is speaking of the Day of the Lord, when Jesus comes and there is a wake of destruction, the sky becomes black, the basic elements of soil, water and vegetation are destroyed in many regions. The second half of the verse is speaking of the later consequence of the Day of the Lord, the destruction of the earth.



Can a man ascend up out of the pit?

Re 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Re 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is


I believe this beast is a country. The antichrist will rule from Israel, the beast empire. Israel is the country that has risen up out of desolation, the country that was , and is not, and has re-appeared to shock the non-Christians. Those whose names are written in the book of life were not shocked when Israel re-appeared because Christians were expecting the re-establishment of Israel.

Prophecy Countdown
Jan 8th 2009, 05:18 AM
eth⋅no⋅cen⋅trism

   /ˌɛθhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngnoʊˈsɛnhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngtrɪzhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngəm/ Show Spelled Pronunciation http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/IPA_pron_key.html) [eth-noh-sen-triz-uhhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngm] Show IPA Pronunciation http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/Spell_pron_key.html)
–noun 1.Sociology. the belief in the inherent superiority of one's own ethnic group or culture.2.a tendency to view alien groups or cultures from the perspective of one's own.
Origin:
1905–10; ethno- (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ethno-&db=luna) + cent(e)r + -ism (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=-ism&db=luna) http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ethnocentrism

I want you to read the second definition. This is common, especially in eschatology. Many view all scripture as concurrent, and the portions of scripture that were written for a certain time period is missed, because of the idea of concurrency.

Ezekiel 16, according to your post, is victim of this error. I am not saying that you are dumb, so please do not go there. I am only highlighting a common mstake that many people have made, whether it be subconscious or otherwise.

From what I have read, Ezekiel 16 is the Lord telling Ezekiel to remind the people of the whoredom that Israel had done before the Dispersion to Babylon. The reason why I know this is because of the context of the passage, which can be derived by dating the book. Ezekiel was a prophet for the people during the Babylonian captivity. At that time, God did indeed call Jerusalem a whore, because of all of the things listed in Ezekiel 16. The point of Ezekiel writing this was so that those Israelites who would read that would repent of the sins of their forefathers, and cease from committing the same things that they were guilty of doing. We have a similar reference to Jerusalem in Revelation 11, which is the reason why that city is called "spiritual Sodom and Egypt".

However, just because Jerusalem is labeled a whore by God in Ezekiel 16 does not make it the whore in Revelation. The critical identifier is Revelation 17:18, and Jerusalem did not rule over the kings of the world back when John wrote the book.

So, if the evidence doesn't match, then the city in question has to be eliminated as a posibility. Although Ezekiel 16 had identified Jerusalem as a whore, the city paid for her sins when Nebachadnezzar destroyed the city and the temple. Ezekiel 16 reminded the Israelites of the reason why God called Nebachadnezzar His hammer.


The Commands.
Leviticus 26: 1. Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

2. Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.

Conditions IF They.

3. IF YE walk in my commandments, and keep my commandments, and do them;

Conditional Promise on the above being observed.
THEN I will give you rain in due season, and the land shall yield her increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit.
5. And your threshing shall reach unto the vintage, and the vintage shall reach unto the sowing time: and ye shall eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land safely.

6. And I will give peace in the land, and ye shall lie down, and none shall make you afraid: and I will rid evil beasts out of the land, neither shall the sword go through your land.

7And ye shall chase your enemies, and they shall fall before you by the sword.

8.And five of you shall chase an hundred, and an hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight: and your enemies shall fall before you by the sword.

9. For I will have respect unto you, and make you fruitful, and multiply you, and establish my covenant with you.

Did Israel/Jerusalem fulfill their agreed part of the covenant with God and gain the promise? No!

Ezekiel 16: 1. Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 2. Son of man, CAUSE JERUSALEM TO KNOW HER ABOMINATIONS,

8. Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a COVENANT WITH THEE, SAITH THE LORD GOD, and thou becamest mine.

9. For I will have respect unto you, and make you fruitful, and multiply you, and establish my covenant with you.

13. Thus wast thou decked with gold and silver; and thy raiment was of fine linen, and silk, and broidered work; thou didst eat fine flour, and honey, and oil: and thou wast exceeding beautiful, and thou didst prosper INTO A KINGDOM.


15. But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and PLAYEDST THE HARLOT because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was.

58. Thou hast borne thy lewdness and thine abominations, saith the LORD. 59For thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even deal with thee as thou hast done, which hast despised the oath in breaking the covenant.

60. Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee in the days of thy youth, and I will establish unto thee an EVERLASTING COVENANT.

Did Jerusalem ‘the harlot’ change in the OT and did she reform through the time of Christ and Apostle or seven churches?

Credits to-
[1]Jerry Falwell, executive editor; Edward E. Hinson and Michael Kroll Woodrow, general editors, KJV Bible commentary [computer file], electronic ed., Logos Library System, (Nashville: Thomas Nelson) 1997, c1994.

“10. To draw attention to the dramatic change of events and to symbolize the fact that certain relationships are severed, Messiah says, I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people. The covenant which is broken is not the Abrahamic covenant or any of Israel’s unconditional covenants, but rather an indirect covenant with the nations of the earth that exists because of God’s direct, unconditional covenants with Israel. The breaking of the staff, even Beauty indicates that in keeping Israel secure from every potential foe the grace of God will be suspended; and the nations will be permitted to come into the land to devastate and conquer Israel. During the time that Israel was in fellowship with Him, God restrained all the people so that none could do violence to Israel. The breaking of Beauty suspends that restraint, and now all the people may do whatever they will to Israel.”
“11. The prophet anticipates the fulfillment of the staff, Beauty, and writes as though it were already an accomplished fact: And it was broken in that day, i.e., the day in which God’s long-suffering with His people should cease and His protective restraint in their behalf should be lifted. It actually occurred in the days following our Lord’s earthly ministry when the Romans devastated the land (a.d. 70), and it will once again occur during the days of the Great Tribulation. As always, the poor of the flock (not poor economically, but humble spiritually—it is a designation for the “… remnant according to the election of grace” cf. Rom 11:5) knew that it was the word of the Lord. Those in right relationship with God always accept the Word of the Lord, regardless of its content. Their right relationship to God is indicated by their reception of His Word. This principle is ever true.”
“12. And I said unto them (the unbelieving nation, not the poor of the flock, vs. 11)—the Messiah is speaking to the unregenerate nation in order to bring to their attention graphically the depths to which they have sunk in their rejection of Him. He asks them to evaluate Him and His ministry: If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. The asking for hire is indicative that the ministry is coming to an end. What He wanted was their love, obedience, and devotion—in short, themselves. They, however, indicated their evaluation of His Person and Work; So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. Thirty pieces of silver, according to Exodus 21:32, was the price to be paid to the master whose slave had been gored by an ox! A sound slave was considered to be worth twice that amount! This is the ultimate insult—Messiah, God’s Son, worth only the price of an incapacitated, gored slave!”[1] (http://bibleforums.org/#_ftn1)
[1]Jerry Falwell, executive editor; Edward E. Hinson and Michael Kroll Woodrow, general editors, KJV Bible commentary [computer file], electronic ed., Logos Library System, (Nashville: Thomas Nelson) 1997, c1994.

I note that you quote Rev 18: 21, in isolation, let’s have a closer look using more verses particularly Rev 18: 19. It is that verse that holds the answer as to the city being Jerusalem.

Rev 18: 15. The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing, 16.And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!

Rev 18: 17. For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off, Rev 18: 18. And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What like unto this great city!

It is going to be Jews that will wail and cast dust on their heads over Jerusalem, but certainly not for Babylon!


Rev 18: 19. And THEY CAST DUST ON THEIR HEADS, and CRIED, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

Jerusalem’s crimes.
Matthew 23: 32. Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

35. That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

36. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

37. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38. Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Rev 18: 20. Rejoice over her, heaven, and holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her. 21And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

third hero
Jan 9th 2009, 05:44 PM
60. Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee in the days of thy youth, and I will establish unto thee an EVERLASTING COVENANT.

Did Jerusalem ‘the harlot’ change in the OT and did she reform through the time of Christ and Apostle or seven churches?

"Nevertheless" is the biblical version of the phrase, in spite of yourself. The word, nevertheless, means that in spite of what Jerusalem had done, even when He had pronounced his judgment against Jerusalem, "I will" remember His portion of the covenant, in spite of the fact that Jerusalem was not honoring her portion. This shows that Jerusalem will be given mercy, in spite of the whoredom that she committed against God. This happened already, during the Babylonian captivity. This whole chapter has no bearing on John's description of Babylon in Revelation 17. Besides, Jerusalem was NEVER the captial of commerce or a city that ruled over the kings of the world. Rome was. Jerusalem was not. Mecca was not. Rome was.


Credits to-
[1]Jerry Falwell, executive editor; Edward E. Hinson and Michael Kroll Woodrow, general editors, KJV Bible commentary [computer file], electronic ed., Logos Library System, (Nashville: Thomas Nelson) 1997, c1994.

“10. To draw attention to the dramatic change of events and to symbolize the fact that certain relationships are severed, Messiah says, I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people. The covenant which is broken is not the Abrahamic covenant or any of Israel’s unconditional covenants, but rather an indirect covenant with the nations of the earth that exists because of God’s direct, unconditional covenants with Israel. The breaking of the staff, even Beauty indicates that in keeping Israel secure from every potential foe the grace of God will be suspended; and the nations will be permitted to come into the land to devastate and conquer Israel. During the time that Israel was in fellowship with Him, God restrained all the people so that none could do violence to Israel. The breaking of Beauty suspends that restraint, and now all the people may do whatever they will to Israel.”
“11. The prophet anticipates the fulfillment of the staff, Beauty, and writes as though it were already an accomplished fact: And it was broken in that day, i.e., the day in which God’s long-suffering with His people should cease and His protective restraint in their behalf should be lifted. It actually occurred in the days following our Lord’s earthly ministry when the Romans devastated the land (a.d. 70), and it will once again occur during the days of the Great Tribulation. As always, the poor of the flock (not poor economically, but humble spiritually—it is a designation for the “… remnant according to the election of grace” cf. Rom 11:5) knew that it was the word of the Lord. Those in right relationship with God always accept the Word of the Lord, regardless of its content. Their right relationship to God is indicated by their reception of His Word. This principle is ever true.”
“12. And I said unto them (the unbelieving nation, not the poor of the flock, vs. 11)—the Messiah is speaking to the unregenerate nation in order to bring to their attention graphically the depths to which they have sunk in their rejection of Him. He asks them to evaluate Him and His ministry: If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. The asking for hire is indicative that the ministry is coming to an end. What He wanted was their love, obedience, and devotion—in short, themselves. They, however, indicated their evaluation of His Person and Work; So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. Thirty pieces of silver, according to Exodus 21:32, was the price to be paid to the master whose slave had been gored by an ox! A sound slave was considered to be worth twice that amount! This is the ultimate insult—Messiah, God’s Son, worth only the price of an incapacitated, gored slave!”[1] (http://bibleforums.org/#_ftn1)
[1]Jerry Falwell, executive editor; Edward E. Hinson and Michael Kroll Woodrow, general editors, KJV Bible commentary [computer file], electronic ed., Logos Library System, (Nashville: Thomas Nelson) 1997, c1994.

Jerry Faldwell and the others are pretribbers, and as such, I believe that they are in error in their judgments. Because they are not here to comment, I will not comment on this passage any further.


I note that you quote Rev 18: 21, in isolation, let’s have a closer look using more verses particularly Rev 18: 19. It is that verse that holds the answer as to the city being Jerusalem.

Rev 18: 15. The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing, 16.And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!

Rev 18: 17. For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off, Rev 18: 18. And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What like unto this great city!

It is going to be Jews that will wail and cast dust on their heads over Jerusalem, but certainly not for Babylon!


Rev 18: 19. And THEY CAST DUST ON THEIR HEADS, and CRIED, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

So, Rome was innocent of killing the prophets? Peter and Paul's lives mean nothing? The fact that Rome killed more Christians then what Hitler did during world war 2 means nothing to God? Jerusalem was being punished for a long time now, and in the minds of some, because of the Dome of the Rock, Jerusalem is STILL Being punished, as the ISraelites do not have total control over Mount Moriah.


Jerusalem’s crimes.
Matthew 23: 32. Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

35. That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

36. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

37. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38. Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Rev 18: 20. Rejoice over her, heaven, and holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her. 21And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

Again, compare Revelation 18:21 to Zechariah 14:11. How can something be totally anihilated and not found at all, and then safely inhabited and found with no more destruction? These are contradictory passages, unless Jerusalem is NOT Babylon.

According to Zechariah 14:1-2 and Matthew 24:15-21, Jerusalem shall be left desolate for a time. According to Revelation 12, Satan will attempt to destroy Israel, but God will save her, in spite of her sins against Him. This brings about the repentence found in Zechariah 12:10-14.

And there's the ships thing. No ships can enter into Jerusalem, because Jerusalem is not a port city. Rome, on the other hand, has ALWAYS been a port city, and as such, it can be seen from the sea, especially when it is burning.

I know that I am not about to score cool points for this one, but as Johnny Cockran said, "if the glove don't fit, you must aquit". Jerusalem does not fit the conditions of the description of Babylon, and as such, it can not be Babylon.

Prophecy Countdown
Jan 10th 2009, 03:44 AM
third hero
“eth⋅no⋅cen⋅trism

/ˌɛθfile:///C:/Users/Pieter/AppData/Local/Temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image002.gifnoʊˈsɛnfile:///C:/Users/Pieter/AppData/Local/Temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image003.giftrɪzfile:///C:/Users/Pieter/AppData/Local/Temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image004.gifəm/ Show Spelled Pronunciation file:///C:/Users/Pieter/AppData/Local/Temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image005.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/IPA_pron_key.html)[eth-noh-sen-triz-uhfile:///C:/Users/Pieter/AppData/Local/Temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image006.gifm] Show IPA Pronunciation file:///C:/Users/Pieter/AppData/Local/Temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image005.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/Spell_pron_key.html)
–noun 1.Sociology. the belief in the inherent superiority of one's own ethnic group or culture.2.a tendency to view alien groups or cultures from the perspective of one's own.
Origin:
1905–10; ethno- (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ethno-&db=luna) + cent(e)r + -ism (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=-ism&db=luna) file:///C:/Users/Pieter/AppData/Local/Temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image007.gif

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ethnocentrism”



third hero
”I want you to read the second definition”.


What relevance has this to with this discussion? None.
I was going to ignore this but let’s have a look at it.

Ethnocentrism is the tendency to look at the world primarily from the perspective of one's own culture. Ethnocentrism often entails the belief that one's own race or ethnic group is the most important and/or that some or all aspects of its culture are superior to those of other groups. Within this ideology, individuals will judge other groups in relation to their own particular ethnic group or culture, especially with concern to language, behaviour, customs, and religion. These ethnic distinctions and sub-divisions serve to define each ethnicity unique cultural identity.
Credit to Wikipedia Encyclopaedia

So third hero, your inference toward me would need to be based on a thorough knowledge of my background.
So I ask you, what is my ‘race,’ ‘or ethnicity’ ‘that I would consider most important?’
What aspects of my culture do I ‘consider superior?’
Where do I ‘judge other groups’ by their ‘language, behaviour, customs, and religion as being inferior?’
You have no evidence for that insinuation and should withdraw the implication immediately please.



Third hero
“This is common, especially in eschatology.”

How would you know dear Brother that ‘this to be common’ and on what basis?


Third hero
“Many view all scripture as concurrent, and the portions of scripture that were written for a certain time period is missed, because of the idea of concurrency”.


I wouldn’t presume to know that about how others ‘view ALL scripture as concurrent however for the record, I don’t.
You sound like a preterist.


Third hero
Ezekiel 16, according to your post, is victim of this error.

According to your misunderstanding of Ezekiel 16: I can see why you would come to that erroneous conclusion.


Third hero
I am not saying that you are dumb, so please do not go there.


I am going to ignore that remark because it is petty and childish.


Third hero
I am only highlighting a common mstake that many people have made, whether it be subconscious or otherwise.


’Common mistakes’ are what preterists make dear Brother, we will see about who is mistaken when I get into this study proper.
Did you know that preconceived ideas have a consequence?


Third hero
From what I have read, Ezekiel 16 is the Lord telling Ezekiel to remind the people of the whoredom that Israel had done before the Dispersion to Babylon. The reason why I know this is because of the context of the passage, which can be derived by dating the book.

From what you have read? How many times have you read Ezekiel 16?
God’s people were warned by Jerimiah 25: 10 – 12. 29: 10, then we read the Lamentations. It was Ezekiel who was told who the Whore was by the Lord and she was named Jerusalem/Israel.


Third hero
Ezekiel was a prophet for the people during the Babylonian captivity.

So was the Prophet Daniel and he spoke of the resurrection, the time of the end, last end and many other time spans. More than ½ the chapters of Daniel deal with the time at the feet of iron and clay that is when God sets up His kingdom during the four beasts of Daniel 7: 3 – 7 in verse 27. There is nothing unusual about that fact.


Third hero
At that time, God did indeed call Jerusalem a whore, because of all of the things listed in Ezekiel 16:


God does so again as we shall see in Revelation, it is unwise to link ALL of Ezekiel into the past when in fact at the end of Ezekiel that idea is laid to rest.

The ‘everlasting covenant’ is not Mosaic law.
Ezekiel 16: 60. Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee in the days of thy youth, and I will establish unto thee an EVERLASTING COVENANT.

Prophecy Countdown
Jan 10th 2009, 03:45 AM
Ezekiel 16: 61. sisters, thine elder and thy younger: and I will give them unto thee for daughters, BUT NOT BY THY COVENANT.

Ezekiel 16: 62. And I will establish my covenant with thee; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD:


The Jews, were slowly released from the 70 years of captivity they were still encouraged to observe Mosaic law.
It was king Cyrus that gave the decree to rebuild the house of God.

Ezra 6: 15. “And this house was finished on the third day of the month Adar, which was in the sixth year of the reign of Darius the king.

Ezra 6: 17. “And offered at the dedication of this house of God an hundred bullocks, two hundred rams, four hundred lambs; and for a sin offering for all Israel, twelve he goats, according to the number of the tribes of Israel. 18. And they set the priests in their divisions, and the Levites in their courses, for the service of God, which is at Jerusalem; as it is written in the book of Moses.”

So basically the everlasting covenant was not established because Mosaic Temple law continued. So what time was God referring to by the words everlasting covenant spoken to Ezekiel? To be EVERLASTING it must fit into ETERNITY.

The Lord knew Jerusalem’s past and she was the same at the time of Christ and she murdered her husband and children.
Matthew 23: 36. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
These remarks are clearly directed at Jerusalem, not Babylon.
Matthew 23: 38. Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Second advent.
Matthew 23: 39. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Is God pacified yet toward Jerusalem, does Israel cry out for Jesus, their Saviour and repent of His death and feel shame?
Ezekiel 16: 63. That thou mayest remember, and be confounded, and never open thy mouth any more because of thy shame, when I am pacified toward thee for all that thou hast done, saith the Lord GOD.


Third hero
The point of Ezekiel writing this was so that those Israelites who would read that would repent of the sins of their forefathers, and cease from committing the same things that they were guilty of doing.
Well, that didn’t happen on a grand scale the seven churches were pursued and were given a dreadful time along with the Apostles.


Third hero
We have a similar reference to Jerusalem in Revelation 11, which is the reason why that city is called "spiritual Sodom and Egypt".
The spiritual condition of Jerusalem is noted in the names ‘Sodom and Egypt.’ Jerusalem is the same now as before, look at the terms used when certain things are withdrawn from Jerusalem such as the ‘bride groom,’ ‘the voice of the bride,’ ‘the light of the candle.’
None of the above terms are associated with Babylon only Jerusalem.
The whore takes on the mantle of Babylon’s character. Jeremiah warned God’s people about their disobedience and so they were taken into the Babylonian empire for some 70 years.

Jeremiah 7: 34. Then will I cause to cease from the cities of Judah, and from the streets of Jerusalem, the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride: for the land shall be desolate.

See Jeremiah 8: 9 the captivity where the bridegroom leaves JERUSALEM!
The Lord resided in Jerusalem, not Babylon.
Babylon never knew the bridegroom or bride or the light of the candle.

Jeremiah 25: 10 Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle.

Jeremiah 33: 10 Thus saith the LORD; Again there shall be heard in this place, which ye say shall be desolate without man and without beast, even in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem, that are desolate, without man, and without inhabitant, and without beast,

Look at the language third hero, drink it in.
Jeremiah 33: 11. The voice of joy, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the voice of them that shall say, Praise the LORD of hosts: for the LORD is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: and of them that shall bring the sacrifice of praise into the HOUSE OF THE LORD.

So it was for seventy years the bridegroom left them.

The bridegroom is the LORD JESUS. See John 3: 28: 31.
Matthew 9: 15. And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast.


Third hero
However, just because Jerusalem is labeled a whore by God in Ezekiel 16 does not make it the whore in Revelation.On that flimsy basis only I would agree, but there is much more biblical evidence that the whore of Ezekiel is the whore of Revelation.
The whore/harlot of both Old and New Testaments loses the bridegroom, He leaves as does the voice of the bride and light of the candle also she will support the beast that at the end of 1260 days murders the two Prophets. See Rev 11: 1 – 15 where 3 ½ days later trumpet seven is blown ushering in the everlasting kingdom.
She will still be doing the same thing 3 ½ days until the last trumpet is blown, that’s resurrection time, what more proof do you need?

Matthew 23: 36. (O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee,)

The Old Testament Prophet Ezekiel associates the ‘bridegroom,’ ‘the voice of the bride,’ ‘the light of the candle’ with Jerusalem not with the city Babylon. The Lord never ever resided in Babylon.

THE TIMING is at the time close to the resurrection!
Rev 18: 19. And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

As I have said before Jews, WILL put dust on their heads when the whore Jerusalem is dealt with. There is no way that they would do the same for Babylon or Rome.
My conclusion thus far is that whenever the bridegroom is mentioned it is to do with Jerusalem.
Rev 18: 21. And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

The verse above verse says Babylon but the language is consistent with Jerusalem using the continuum within the following verses, look at the things Jerusalem loses from the OT to the NT below, they are exactly the same.

Rev 18: 23. And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
24. And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
Revelation was a one vision continuum chapters and verses were added later.
We are still looking at the TIMING because the continuum flows to the wedding supper.

Rev 19: 1. And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2. For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3. And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great. 6And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7. Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

So this woman below verses was His old wife.
Ezekiel 16: 1. Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

Ezekiel 16: 2. Son of man, CAUSE JERUSALEM to know her abominations,

Abraham, was an Amorite and Sarah an Hittite

Ezekiel 16: 3. And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto Jerusalem; Thy birth and thy nativity is of the land of Canaan; thy father was an Amorite, and thy mother an Hittite.

Ezekiel 16: 8. Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord GOD, and thou becamest mine.

The whore was the wife of the Lord and she will betray Him for the counterfeit, she will ride the beast and be the well known whore until His new bride the new Jerusalem. At the wedding supper see Rev 19: 1 – 10.

It is Satan that will sit on the mount at the sides of the North in JERUSALEM.
Isaiah 14: 12. How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:


Third hero
The critical identifier is Revelation 17:18, and Jerusalem did not rule over the kings of the world back when John wrote the book.
That is right because Jerusalem will be the centre of the world’s economy.
Again you keep looking back because of what I believe are preconceived ideas. Read the context regarding the TIME.
Revelation 1: 19. Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things WHICH SHALL BE HEREAFTER;

When Satan, is cast out of Heaven after the war see Rev 12: 7 - 17. He arrives and will try to be like God. See 2 Cor 11: 14, 15.
Satan will sit on Mount Zion and Jerusalem will be the financial centre of the world.
Revelation in part, is for the future. Rev 1: 19 makes that obvious.

Daniel 8: 25. And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
25. And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by prosperity shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Craft is an old English ward for witchcraft.


Third hero
So, if the evidence doesn't match, then the city in question has to be eliminated as a posibility.
The overwhelming evidence is apparent, according to the scriptures. ‘Ipso facto’ my dear Brother it is either you can’t find it or understand it, or both..


third hero.
Although Ezekiel 16 had identified Jerusalem as a whore, the city paid for her sins when Nebachadnezzar destroyed the city and the temple.
Your above statement is based on a preconceived time limiting restrictive application and at best is no more than a construct.
Biblical evidence has proven that the whore is yet to pay for her sins.


third hero
“Ezekiel 16 reminded the Israelites of the reason why God called Nebachadnezzar His hammer.” The Lord also called Nebuchadnezzar His ‘servant.’

May you be blessed with love and more understanding.
PC

third hero
Jan 10th 2009, 09:39 AM
What relevance has this to with this discussion? None.
I was going to ignore this but let’s have a look at it.

Ethnocentrism is the tendency to look at the world primarily from the perspective of one's own culture. Ethnocentrism often entails the belief that one's own race or ethnic group is the most important and/or that some or all aspects of its culture are superior to those of other groups. Within this ideology, individuals will judge other groups in relation to their own particular ethnic group or culture, especially with concern to language, behaviour, customs, and religion. These ethnic distinctions and sub-divisions serve to define each ethnicity unique cultural identity.
Credit to Wikipedia Encyclopaedia

So third hero, your inference toward me would need to be based on a thorough knowledge of my background.
So I ask you, what is my ‘race,’ ‘or ethnicity’ ‘that I would consider most important?’
What aspects of my culture do I ‘consider superior?’
Where do I ‘judge other groups’ by their ‘language, behaviour, customs, and religion as being inferior?’
You have no evidence for that insinuation and should withdraw the implication immediately please.


Quite the contrary, I have plenty of evidence that shows ethnocentrism here, prophecy countdown. Take your take on Ezekiel 16. You use this passage to show that Jerusalem is the city of Babylon in Revelation. Why? Becasue that chapter has Jerusalem being called a whore.

Ethnocentrism comes into play because you think that this ancient prophecy has a modern-day application. Your logic: Jerusalem is called a whore by God in Ezekiel 16, therefore Jerusalem is the Whore in Revelation. The problem with this logic is that the timing of the writing of this passage was not for this era at all. Rather, the era in which this passage was written was right before the Fall of Jerusalem, when Nebachadnezzar razed the city and the temple, and captured and enslaved the people. So, the modern-day application is deemed inadmissible, since this prophecy, in full, has already been fulfilled.

This is why I had said to you, look at the second definition. I was not implying any of the other things that many inpute into ethnocentrism. I am not calling you a fascist, or anything else of that ilk. It was not a name call at all, and I am sorry if you took it that way. The way in which I was using the term is to show that your application of Ezekiel 16 is not truly admissible because of the fact that it has been fulfilled in the past, in it's entirety.

Consider this. I find this prophecy in the Old Testament.

Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse. -Malachi 4:5-6

Now, I read this in the New Testament.

And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. -Revelation 11:3-4

Now, I make a connection between the prophet Elijah coming BEFORE the day ofthe Lord, aka the return of the Lord. I say, "Elijah is coming to turn the hearts of men back to their fathers, and if they do not, he will curse them for the entire time of his ministry, and shut up the sky, etc. " I would be wrong. Right? Why?

My ethnocentrism begins with the idea that I was taught that the Bible has applications in both today and ancients times, and that the scriptures apply to today as much as they applied back when they were written. According to the way I was taught, it would be easy for me to say, well, I am right, because the Elijah that is coming before the Day of the Lord is one of the two lampstands. There is another mistake in that same passage. I see the Day of the Lord. I was taught that the Day of the Lord means the return of the Lord. So, I make the connection.

Here is how I was wrong in saying that the Malachi 4 verse has modern-day applications.

1. The Lord, in Matthew 11, tells us that John the Baptist was the one that fulfilled that prophecy.

2. The Day of the Lord, as written in Malachi, did NOT stand for the return of the Lord, but His first advent, which is definitely the case here.

I am not claiming anything fascist here, prophecy countdown. I am merely showing you a common mistake that many have made in this modern era, including myself. As much as I do not like to agree with wpm, he does have a point in saying that we all bring too much of the past into the present, as things that have been fulfill, some claim has not. (For the record, most of the things that he claims is fulfilled, I disagree with him, but the premise itself is sound).

So, in conclusion, I still say that Ezekiel 16 has already been fulfilled in it's entirety back in the Babylonian period, and I am glad that you voiced your opinion concerning my use of ethnocentrism. This way, I was able to clarify myself, because I was unaware of the negative applications that that term was used for. An antisemite, I think you are not. A racist, I think you are not. If you were, I would not be talking to you. And so I am sorry for the misconception, but still stand on my conclusion concerning Ezekiel 16, Zechariah 14, and Revelation 17.

third hero
Jan 10th 2009, 10:09 AM
Prophecy countdown. For clarity's sake, I am asking you. Are you basing Ezekiel 16 on the premise that the term, everlasting covenant, was used in verse 6o?

I did a word search at http://www.blueletterbible.org/ on the phrase, "everlasting covenant". I found that phrase littered throughout the entire Pentateuch. From circumcision, (Genesis 17:13), to the Sabbath, (Leviticus 24:8), to the Laws of Moses itself, (1 Chronicles 16:17). Using other scriptures as reference to define the term, everlasting covenant, we have to conclude that there are varying meanings when this phrase is used.

For instance, 1 Chronicles 16 says that the made an everlasting covenant with Abraham, and confirmed it with Jacob as a law, and to Israel as an everlasting covenant. This is nothing short of the laws at Sinai and the wilderness. These were to be an "everlasting covenant".

So I believe that the term "everlasting covenant", found in Ezekiel 16, could have referred back to the original covenant at Sinai, the one that Ezekiel would have been very familiar with, and not the "new covenant" that we are familiar with. Their "everlasting covenant" was the land covenant and the laws at Sinai. It was not the same as God's covenant with us, which is salvation and eternal life. In this case, I call ethnocentrism because you base your opinion concerning Jerusalem being Babylon on the christian definitions of Old testament literature. Ezekiel's "everlasting covenant" is not ours, but theirs from the time of Sinai to the cross.

I will be answering more of your last two posts, but right now, my eyes are sinking in my head, and I must get some sleep. To be continued.:sleeping:

Prophecy Countdown
Jan 12th 2009, 06:27 AM
Zechariah 14: 1. “BEHOLD, THE DAY OF THE LORD cometh and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.”
Zechariah 14:2. For I will GATHER ALL NATIONS AGAINST JERUSALEM to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Zechariah 14:3. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

In verse 1 we have a time called the day of the Lord then a promise to fight in verse 2, So for me to be convinced of that something spectacularly powerful by God, must occur and here in the next verse it does.

Zechariah 14: 4. And his feet shall stand IN THAT DAY upon THE MOUNT of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives SHALL CLEAVE IN THE MIDST THEREOF TOWARD THE EAST AND TOWARD THE WEST A VERY GREAT VALLEY; AND HALF THE MOUNTAIN SHALL REMOVE TOWARD THE NORTH, AND HALF OF IT TOWARD THE SOUTH.

Now that convinces me that this chapter's time is at trumpet 7. Nothing remotely like verse 4 has happened yet, so it certainly must be on THE DAY OF THE LORD.

Zechariah 14: 5. And ye shall flee the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, LIKE as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my GOD SHALL COME, ALL THE SAINTS WITH HIM.

We have the Lord returning, NOT AS A MILD LAMB BUT AN ALL POWERFUL GOD WITH ALL the Saints with Him. That convinces me that the resurrection of trumpet 7 has occurred on the day of the Lord.

Zechariah 14: 6. And it shall come to pass IN THAT DAY THE LIGHT SHALL NOT BE CLEAR , DARK:
Only God knows the day of His return.
Zechariah 14: 7. But IT SHALL BE ONE DAY which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, at EVENING TIME IT SHALL BE LIGHT.

Zechariah 14: 8. And it shall be IN THAT DAY, living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

Zechariah 14: 9. And the LORD shall BE KING OVER ALL THE EARTH: IN THAT DAY shall there be ONE LORD, and his name one.

Zechariah 14: 10. All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin’s gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and the tower of Hananeel unto the king’s winepresses.

All on the DAY OF THE LORD WHERE GOD NOW PROTECTS JERUSALEM!

Zechariah 14: 11. And shall dwell in it, and THERE SHALL BE NO MORE UTTER DESTRUCTION; BUT JERUSALEM SHALL BE SAFELY INHABITED.

Zechariah 14: 12. And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD WILL SMITE ALL THE PEOPLE THAT HAVE FOUGHT AGAINST JERUSALEM.
THEIR FLESH SHALL CONSUME AWAY WHILE THEY STAND UPON THEIR FEET, and THEIR EYES SHALL CONSUME AWAY IN THEIR HOLES, and THEIR TONGUE SHALL CONSUME AWAY in their mouth.

What a great and terrible day of the Lord we are reading about.
O we are still within the SAME day!

zechariah 14: 13. And it shall come to pass IN THAT DAY, a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.

I found that straightforward, right throughout chapter 14 where we were assured of what day all this is to occur. HOW POWERFUL IS OUR GOD He will create a huge valley and split a mountain in two directions.

This is what Peter says about the day of the Lord.

2 Peter 2: 10. But THE DAY OF THE LORD WILL COME AS A THEIF IN THE NIGHT; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and THE ELEMENTS SHALL MELT WITH FERVENT HEAT, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

No wonder in Zech 14: 12. it speaks of their flesh melting away and their eyes doing the same in their sockets.
2 Peter 2: 11. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

2 Peter 2: 12. Looking for and hasting unto THE COMING OF THE DAY OF GOD, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

2 Peter 2: 13. Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Acts 2: 19. And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

Acts 2: 20. THE SUN SHALL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS, and the MOON INTO BLOOD, BEFORE THAT GREAT AND NOTABLE DAY OF THE LORD:

Acts 2: 21. And it shall come to pass, whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord SHALL BE SAVED.

Acts 2: 22. Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

third hero
Jan 12th 2009, 09:43 AM
I can not agree with you, prophecy countdown, in the thinking that God will destroy a city, and then rebuild it while satisfying both prophecies concerning Jerusalem and Babylon. Like I have stated before, the Fate of Babylon is destruction by fire, and the angel said in Revelation 18:21 that it will never be seen again. The fact that in Zechariah 14 Jerusalem is safely inhabited tells me that it is not completely destroyed and never seen again. It is clearly seen again, as people are inhabiting it.

I understand that you want to show that Jerusalem, like the rest of the world, is destroyed when the Lord comes, and in order to fulfil Zechariah 14, you want to say that the Lord will rebuild it, and I see how that would make sense if the detail of "shall be found no more at all" wasn't written. The fact of the matter is that the angel was specific in saying that it will never be found again, and if something is not found, then it can not be inhabited. If the Lord rebuilds it, then it would be found, which would invalidate the angel's prophecy concerning Babylon, unless Jerusalem is not Babylon.

Therefore, I stand by my original conclusion that Jerusalem can not be Babylon in Revelation. Jerusalem, in Zechariah, is inhabited again, AFTER the Lord returns. The survivors will have to go there to worship the Lord of Lords during the Feast of Tabernacles, showing that the Lord will not destroy the city when He comes, but rather, he will set up His Kingdom there, ensuring that there willl be no more utter destruction in that city. In Zechariah 14, the city is not destroyed, only desolated. It is reinhabited when the Lord comes with His saints. There is no torching by fire, no complete and utter destruction of Jerusalem, where there will be no trace of her again. Jerusalem, after the Lord returns, which is descibed in Zechariah 14, is safely inhabited, something tht does not happen to Babylon. Babylon is utterly destroyed, never to be found again.

Prophecy Countdown
Jan 13th 2009, 11:37 AM
Third hero
Derail alert!

I totally disagree with the idea that Jerusalem is the Whore of Babylon. The fate of babylon is complete destruction and the elimination from the earth, whereas Jerusalem's fate is not the same as Babylon.

And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. -Revelation 18:21

And [men] shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited. Zechariah 14:11

The Bible does not contradict itself. If Jerusalem is Babylon, then Jerusalme would have to be both destroyed and safely inhabited, both not found at all and plainly seen. Both are impossible at the exact same time. Jerusalem can not be Babylon.



We are in total agreement that the Bible does not contradict itself but we do have a problem, third hero, we can’t seem to see eye to eye.

Some of your well-put thoughts have made me seriously rethink some issues.

I have known for a long time now that there are two women concerning prophecy. Totally different in character.
The one in Ezekiel who rides the beast in Revelation and the other, the bride the bridegroom weds at the wedding supper Rev 19: 7 whilst the other burns, verses 2 and 3 as the smoke from her rises.
That is why we get two different endings and if we are unaware of that fact then we may read contradictions into scripture.

Rev 18: 21 and Zechariah 14: 11, noting the time of these events and how I found that there are two separate women.
One loses her God given name by falling into apostasy.

If we think that Rev 18: 21 and Zechariah 14: 11, are applicable to one woman we may have a contradictory situation regarding them or try to find another city causing even more inconsistencies.

Just for the record. I have never said that Jesus rebuilds Jerusalem, Jesus the bridegroom marries a new bride in Rev 19: 7.

This is the way I see the destruction of the Old & New Testament. hartlot/whore/Jerusalem/Babylon.

The two verses you have quoted are in blue for emphasis purposes only and I have brought them together in biblical harmony.

Rev 18: 21. And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast [I]it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

I will repeat then enlarge.
The above I believe is the Jewish city Jerusalem referred to as Babylon because I noted the reaction of some Jews.

Rev 18. 19. And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

Rev 18. 22. And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
I know that the bridegroom did not reside in Rome or Babylon so He does not leave from either.
Rev 18. 23. And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

Rev 18. 24. And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

We find God’s ‘many people’ that have been gathered at the resurrection and are in Heaven.
Rev 19: 1. And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

Rev 19: 2. For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

Old Jerusalem the harlot is destroyed, gone forever which confirms Rev 18: 21.

Rev 19: 3. And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

Rev 19: 4. And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
Rev 19: 5. And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

Rev 19: 6. And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
As the smoke of the harlot rises in verse 3 the marriage of the lamb is come.

Rev 19: 7. Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

This fine woman/Jerusalem, the woman that lives safely forever which harmonises with Zechariah 14: 11.

The above verse confirms Zechariah 14: 11.

Zechariah 14: 11. And shall dwell in it, and THERE SHALL BE NO MORE UTTER DESTRUCTION; BUT JERUSALEM SHALL BE SAFELY INHABITED.

Rev 19: 8. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Rev 19: 9. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.


May God Bless you third hero and thanks for your thoughts. I have seen and have accepted many of your well made points, they have made me rethink some OT ideas.

PC

Prophecy Countdown
Jan 19th 2009, 01:01 PM
I forgot to post the following.

Ezekiel 16: 60 is unfulfilled!

60. Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee in the days of thy youth, and I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant. 61Then thou shalt remember thy ways, and be ashamed, when thou shalt receive thy sisters, thine elder and thy younger: and I will give them unto thee for daughters, but not by thy covenant. 62And I will establish my covenant with thee; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD: 63That thou mayest remember, and be confounded, and never open thy mouth any more because of thy shame, when I am pacified toward thee for all that thou hast done, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel, Jeremiah and Paul are in tune


Jeremiah 31: 31. Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


Jeremiah 31 - 34 is unfulfilled during the OT times, it is repeated in Hebrews 8: 6 – 13.

Hebrews 8: 6 – 13. .

Hebrews 8: 6. But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second

8. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:


11. And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

13. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Hebrews 12: 24. And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
There you are third hero, it is indisputable.

Joyfulparousia
Jan 19th 2009, 02:08 PM
Rev 17:5 And on her forehead was written a name of mystery: "Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth's abominations."
Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. When I saw her, I marveled greatly.
Rev 17:7 But the angel said to me, "Why do you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman, and of the beast with seven heads and ten horns that carries her.

Why did John marvel?

Do you think that he may have had, a wrongly preconceived idea (from scripture) who this 'mystery' Babylon would be, or that Babylon was revived.

Isa 21:8 And he cried, A lion: My lord, I stand continually upon the watchtower in the daytime, and I am set in my ward whole nights:
Isa 21:9 And, behold, here cometh a chariot of men, with a couple of horsemen. And he answered and said, Babylon is fallen, is fallen; and all the graven images of her gods he hath broken unto the ground.

Also Jermiah 50 and 51

I think that John marvels because even he is stunned at her false beauty and appeal. The angel then rebukes John, "Why did you marvel!?!"

The fact that John marveled at this false bride speaks as a warning to those living in the last generation to not be deceived by counterfeit beauty.

True beauty is found in beholding Jesus who will show Himself as beautiful and glorious in the last day (see Is. 4) and believers, the true Bride, will shine with that same glory!

TexasBeliever
Jan 22nd 2009, 02:59 PM
I had never thought of Jerusalem being the whore! But from a biblical perspective it does seem to line up. As stated before, the only whore spoken of repeatedly in scripture is the Holy City.

And she enters her whoredom in the last days when she makes a "covenant with death and hell", then, 1260 days later, the beast turns on her and devours her. That is why those living in Jerusalem at that time are warned by the Lord to flee the city.