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ross3421
Dec 29th 2008, 05:08 PM
I would like to start discussions on all about the soul. The following are some leading questions which I have some thoughts.

What is the soul?

Where does the soul come from?

Is our soul a created entity?


Thanks.

The Parson
Dec 29th 2008, 05:53 PM
I would like to start discussions on all about the soul. The following are some leading questions which I have some thoughts.

What is the soul?

Where does the soul come from?

Is our soul a created entity?


Thanks.Ross, please tell me that this thread isn't all about the soul being created before the man waiting for a body in a place somewhere in heaven.

Emanate
Dec 29th 2008, 07:27 PM
Ross, please tell me that this thread isn't all about the soul being created before the man waiting for a body in a place somewhere in heaven.


There may be some truth to that. My step-mom always used to say "that is when you were still in heaven eating chocolate drops.":hmm:

David Taylor
Dec 29th 2008, 07:56 PM
Sometimes the word 'soul' is used to describe the immaterial aspect, the spirit of a person.
Sometimes the word 'soul' is used to describe the body of a person.
Sometimes the word 'soul' is used to describe the body/spirit unit of a person.

Context determines what 'the soul' is.

The word alone, is too vague; although the common modern understanding of the word "soul" is the immaterial spirit that someone has.

Everything besides God Himself, is created.

He created our souls as we were knit together in our mother's wombs.

God Himself even acknowledges in the O.T. that He too has a soul; which makes sense realizing that God is a spirit; and doesn't have a physical body. (at least prior to the N.T. Nativity)

The Parson
Dec 29th 2008, 08:09 PM
And there is absolutely no evidence to support the soul being created before the being. More proof actually that once the man comes to life, the soul is created also: Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Became, means became. That is a creation.

markdrums
Dec 29th 2008, 08:28 PM
And there is absolutely no evidence to support the soul being created before the being. More proof actually that once the man comes to life, the soul is created also: Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Became, means became. That is a creation.


I have to agree here.

The Soul is part of the person.... created AT conception. The soul is not a pre-incarnate existence of someone.

The idea that the soul exists before physical life is Eastern Mystical / New-Age ideology.

;)

David Taylor
Dec 29th 2008, 08:32 PM
I have to agree here.

The Soul is part of the person.... created AT conception. The soul is not a pre-incarnate existence of someone.

The idea that the soul exists before physical life is Eastern Mystical / New-Age ideology.

;)

Joseph Smith and Mormonism also heavily teaches this....everyone on earth were priorly made disembodied spirit-children made in Heaven by procreation of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother before the worlds were created....and later placed within bodies to continue their journey to become gods themselves of their own planets later on.

The Parson
Dec 29th 2008, 10:02 PM
Joseph Smith and Mormonism also heavily teaches this....everyone on earth were priorly made disembodied spirit-children made in Heaven by procreation of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother before the worlds were created....and later placed within bodies to continue their journey to become gods themselves of their own planets later on.I believe it does have it's roots in Jewish mysticism although originally started in Babel. They said that in the Chamber or Treasury or Hall of the souls in the 7th heaven was a great multitude of pre-created souls and when a child was conceived, the Treasury gave up a soul. Sort of like a gumball machine. That is most likely where the Mormons picked up on it David, because a great deal of their "religion" deals with mysticism.

ross3421
Dec 29th 2008, 11:05 PM
[LIST]

He created our souls as we were knit together in our mother's wombs.

1. God's creation was complete after 7 days. Scripture is clear on this......

Ge 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

Ge 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

God is not continually creating as you imply. Our bodies are not a direct creation from God but from a formation of the image of Adam.

Ge 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

2. Is not our soul and spirit eternal?

Thus a soul and spirit are eternal intangible aspects which live outside of our tangible bodies. We see this is the case after death so why not before? What is so taboo on saying this to be the case. We can say a soul lives on after death but then say a soul cannot live on before?


Mark

ross3421
Dec 29th 2008, 11:22 PM
And there is absolutely no evidence to support the soul being created before the being. More proof actually that once the man comes to life, the soul is created also: Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Became, means became. That is a creation.

Parson,

You are saying God creates after the first 7 days. Scripture does not supoort this. Scipture states his creation was FINISHED after the 6th day however you are saying that he then later created a soul when he formed Adam from the already created earth.?

Ge 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

With the understanding that God does not create after the initial 7 days, the verse above should be that now the soul lives in a tangible body not that the soul was created alongwith the flesh. Scripture does not say this.

Question, do you see souls as eternal?


Mark

ross3421
Dec 29th 2008, 11:53 PM
I believe it does have it's roots in Jewish mysticism although originally started in Babel. They said that in the Chamber or Treasury or Hall of the souls in the 7th heaven was a great multitude of pre-created souls and when a child was conceived, the Treasury gave up a soul. Sort of like a gumball machine. That is most likely where the Mormons picked up on it David, because a great deal of their "religion" deals with mysticism.

I have not read any other literature on the subject of souls outside of scripture. I have heard of the hall of souls in a movie but never from another denomination. I word searched "hall of souls" and came up with nothing. The following was taken from Wikipedia...

"Following Aristotle and Avicenna, St. Thomas Aquinas understands the soul as the first principle, or act, of the body. However, his epistemological theory required that, since the intellectual soul is capable of knowing all material things, and since in order to know a material thing there must be no material thing within it, the soul was definitely not corporeal. Therefore, the soul had an operation separate from the body and therefore could subsist without the body. Furthermore, since the rational soul of human beings was subsistent and was not made up of matter and form, it could not be destroyed in any natural process. The full argument for the immortality of the soul and Thomas's elaboration of Aristotelian theory is found in Question 75 of the Summa Theologica."

The debate of the soul has been for the ages even among Christians so before we write off any suggestions as fully "mystical" let's not be closed minded from what we have been taught and told to believe.


Mark

reformedct
Dec 30th 2008, 12:05 AM
Parson,

You are saying God creates after the first 7 days. Scripture does not supoort this. Scipture states his creation was FINISHED after the 6th day however you are saying that he then later created a soul when he formed Adam from the already created earth.?

Ge 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

With the understanding that God does not create after the initial 7 days, the verse above should be that now the soul lives in a tangible body not that the soul was created alongwith the flesh. Scripture does not say this.

Question, do you see souls as eternal?


Mark


Genesis first few chapters are written in the Eastern Style of storytelling:

Beginning, middle, beginning

as compared to the western style of beginning middle end

First show the big picture, then go back and explain with more detail


The first chapter shows the big picture, the second chapter goes into detail about that first chapter.

I think it says man was created on the sixth day in the first chapter. then in the second it goes into detail (middle)


Thats how the Bible is written:

Beginning, middle, beginning

Genesis 1 speaks of the beginning
Genesis 2----Jude talks of the middle
Revelations talks about the end of the middle/New Beginning

ross3421
Dec 30th 2008, 12:17 AM
I think it says man was created on the sixth day in the first chapter. then in the second it goes into detail (middle)





Not sure I completely understand or agree with your point. But if chapter two is more detail of the events of chapter 1 then could you explain why in chapter 2 man appears BEFORE the animals when in chapter 1 he is created AFTER them?

The Parson
Dec 30th 2008, 01:48 AM
Ross, I missed the part where God doesn't create since it's past the 7 days. Neighbor, at the risk of sounding a bit harsh, I would dismiss that just as quickly as having to confess my sins to a man because I can't reach the Lord God or the necessity of praying for the dead.

Zack702
Dec 30th 2008, 02:07 AM
There is a elderly woman who is close to me and she told me one day that she believed that as we are here on earth our souls are with God in heaven.

And you might at first think hard on things like this but it's clear to understand that understandings of things like this are only found in parable or figurative ways. But somehow we are connected to God and it is described in the word soul.

I knew exactly what she was talking about even though a part of me wanted to question her understanding another part of me knows exactly what she is talking about.

The Parson
Dec 30th 2008, 03:10 AM
Parson,

You are saying God creates after the first 7 days. Scripture does not supoort this. Scipture states his creation was FINISHED after the 6th day however you are saying that he then later created a soul when he formed Adam from the already created earth.?

Ge 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

With the understanding that God does not create after the initial 7 days, the verse above should be that now the soul lives in a tangible body not that the soul was created alongwith the flesh. Scripture does not say this.

Question, do you see souls as eternal?


MarkMark, please don't misconstrue my meaning. THE CREATION was completed in 6 days and on the 7th God rested. There is no scripture saying that God has stopped being in the creating business though. That would narrow the ability of The Almighty. We even see God creating new things when all this mess we are living in gets done away with...

2nd Peter 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

ross3421
Dec 30th 2008, 03:22 AM
Mark, please don't misconstrue my meaning. THE CREATION was completed in 6 days and on the 7th God rested. There is no scripture saying that God has stopped being in the creating business though. That would narrow the ability of The Almighty. We even see God creating new things when all this mess we are living in gets done away with...

2nd Peter 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

You point out the creation of the new heaven and earth which is not of this world which I speak. I understand God will create a new heaven and earth but NOT any additional inhabinants thereof.......

Ge 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

The Parson
Dec 30th 2008, 03:26 AM
OK then, here is the premise: in Bible Chat we use Biblical proofs, not theory or conjecture. Please post the biblical "proof" for a pre-created soul.

ross3421
Dec 30th 2008, 05:51 AM
OK then, here is the premise: in Bible Chat we use Biblical proofs, not theory or conjecture. Please post the biblical "proof" for a pre-created soul.

Parsons,

I applaud your stance for biblical proof when speaking on subject matter in bible chat. Though I think you and I know there are many theories and conjecture on this forum (rapture as one) that are not backed by scripture and even when scriptures are presented they are discounted by the receiver for subjective reasons. Many are not subject to change even if you present them with scriptures. So your request is a difficult one however I will proceed.


Ge 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

Ge 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

Scripture states that ALL of the host of heaven and of earth were finished after the 6th day. If All of them are finished then there are none to be created.

Created vs Formed

The misunderstanding is that God creates man in chapter one but then "forms" man from out of his creation in chapter 2. These are two separate events. PROOF. Man is created after the animals in chapter one but is formed upon the earth before the animals in chapter 2. If both were speaking of the same event then they would parallel

Created chapter 1 - Formed chapter 2

Interesting things to point out here. Note that when man is created in chapter 1 he is created both male and female but Eve was created out of man. Second, scripture states in this creation both male and female were called Adam but again we know in chapter 2 the women was called Eve.

Ge 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Ge 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

Created in the image of God

Man was created in chapter 1 after the image of God. God is an invisible spirit thus fleshly man was not his image being spoken of. We see this as Seth was after the image of Adam and his own likeness.

Ge 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

So in what image was man made? If God is spirit then is it not possible that man in chapter 1 was made first as spiritual beings. I would say it is a possibility. Again,

1. Both male and female were created in chapter 1 and both were called Adam.

2. Man is created in chapter 1 after the animals but his physical appearance is form before the animals in chapter 2.

3. Created in God's image is not our fleshly bodies. In the true sense God's image is invisible spirit our flesh was formed from the earth from God. Adam had is own image and likeness.

I will stop here for now as there is much more. I hope you see I have done much study on this subject matter. I hope to those on this thread that I am showing that I am not concocting some wild theory but showing a case for a pre created soul. In fact I see all the souls of every living thing created within six days and God gives them instruction and their authority prior to being formed at some appointed time in the future.

Next I will examine, is the soul eternal?


Mark

The Parson
Dec 30th 2008, 03:51 PM
Parsons,

I applaud your stance for biblical proof when speaking on subject matter in bible chat. Though I think you and I know there are many theories and conjecture on this forum (rapture as one) that are not backed by scripture and even when scriptures are presented they are discounted by the receiver for subjective reasons. Many are not subject to change even if you present them with scriptures. So your request is a difficult one however I will proceed.

Ge 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

Ge 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

Scripture states that ALL of the host of heaven and of earth were finished after the 6th day. If All of them are finished then there are none to be created.

Created vs FormedRoss, when my work day is over I go home howbeit, very late sometimes, by the end of the week I see that all my work is completed and then I rest. But lo and behold, the next week comes around and work starts again and it is usually a different task than from the week before. From all the work He had made is a cessation from a particular project.

Using the grammar of the scriptures like this would be the same as saying there is a great deal of time between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. That's where the gap theory folks get their idea from. Whereas Genesis 1:1 is a preamble to the book. The same can be said about your example below. And where you see Genesis 2:2 it's a statement: "OK, God finished the task". Nothing more than that really. Have you ever heard the old adage "the more you complicate the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain"?


The misunderstanding is that God creates man in chapter one but then "forms" man from out of his creation in chapter 2. These are two separate events. PROOF. Man is created after the animals in chapter one but is formed upon the earth before the animals in chapter 2. If both were speaking of the same event then they would parallel

Created chapter 1 - Formed chapter 2

Interesting things to point out here. Note that when man is created in chapter 1 he is created both male and female but Eve was created out of man. Second, scripture states in this creation both male and female were called Adam but again we know in chapter 2 the women was called Eve.

Ge 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Ge 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

Created in the image of God

Man was created in chapter 1 after the image of God. God is an invisible spirit thus fleshly man was not his image being spoken of. We see this as Seth was after the image of Adam and his own likeness.

Ge 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

So in what image was man made? If God is spirit then is it not possible that man in chapter 1 was made first as spiritual beings. I would say it is a possibility. Again,

1. Both male and female were created in chapter 1 and both were called Adam.

2. Man is created in chapter 1 after the animals but his physical appearance is form before the animals in chapter 2.

3. Created in God's image is not our fleshly bodies. In the true sense God's image is invisible spirit our flesh was formed from the earth from God. Adam had is own image and likeness.

I will stop here for now as there is much more. I hope you see I have done much study on this subject matter. I hope to those on this thread that I am showing that I am not concocting some wild theory but showing a case for a pre created soul. In fact I see all the souls of every living thing created within six days and God gives them instruction and their authority prior to being formed at some appointed time in the future.

Next I will examine, is the soul eternal?

Mark

ross3421
Dec 30th 2008, 05:11 PM
Ross, when my work day is over I go home howbeit, very late sometimes, by the end of the week I see that all my work is completed and then I rest. But lo and behold, the next week comes around and work starts again and it is usually a different task than from the week before. From all the work He had made is a cessation from a particular project.

Ge 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

Are you are saying God did not finish creating the host of earth in 7 days?.

We need to take what the scripture say and then use other scriptures to support or deny the claim. God said they were finished so we need to say they were finished.

Our human undestanding focuses on tangible things which we can see and equate the host of earth in the verse to fleshly bodies and say that can't be finished. The understanding is in what form did he create this host in chapter 1 which is a soul and then later into flesh.

As I have pointed out to support this claim is the following......

1. Both male and female were created in chapter 1 and both were called Adam.

2. Man is created in chapter 1 after the animals but his physical appearance is form before the animals in chapter 2.

3. Created in God's image is not our fleshly bodies. In the true sense God's image is invisible spirit our flesh was formed from the earth from God. Adam had is own image and likeness.


I have yet to see any scriptural evidence for support of the contrary rather the human mind weighing right and wrong based on a previous base understanding. This is how theories are believed from one generation to the next. I am as guilty as anyone else however when dealing with a biblical subject matter we need to start with text and build a case. Note I had no previous base for my view.

Mark

David Taylor
Dec 30th 2008, 06:31 PM
Parson,

You are saying God creates after the first 7 days. Scripture does not supoort this. Scipture states his creation was FINISHED after the 6th day


Your premise is incorrect. God finished the initial creation of the Earth and the universe at the conclusion of day 6.

However, nothing in scripture says God is limited to no more creating thereafter.

Contrarily, Scripture teaches God has at times, continued to create after those 6 days.

Example of God Creating - centuries after the Creation Week was completed

I Kings 17:10-16
So Elijah got up and went to Zarephath. When he arrived at the city gate, there was a widow woman gathering wood. Elijah called to her and said, "Please bring me a little water in a cup and let me drink." As she went to get it, he called to her and said, "Please bring me a piece of bread in your hand."But she said, "As the LORD your God lives, I don't have anything baked—only a handful of flour in the jar and a bit of oil in the jug. Just now, I am gathering a couple of sticks in order to go prepare it for myself and my son so we can eat it and die." Then Elijah said to her, "Don't be afraid; go and do as you have said. Only make me a small loaf from it and bring it out to me. Afterwards, you may make some for yourself and your son, for this is what the LORD God of Israel says: 'The flour jar will not become empty and the oil jug will not run dry until the day the LORD sends rain on the surface of the land.' " So she proceeded to do according to the word of Elijah. She and he and her household ate for many days. The flour jar did not become empty, and the oil jug did not run dry, according to the word of the LORD He had spoken through Elijah."

God's back in the creation business here; creating more bread and oil for the faithful Tishbite woman and her son.






Example of God Creating - centuries after the Creation Week was completed


Matthew 14:15 "And when it was evening, his disciples came to Jesus, saying, This is a desert place, and the time is now past; send the multitude away, that they may go into the villages, and buy themselves victuals. But Jesus said unto them, They need not depart; give ye them to eat. And they say unto him, We have here but five loaves, and two fishes. He said, Bring them hither to me. And he commanded the multitude to sit down on the grass, and took the five loaves, and the two fishes, and looking up to heaven, he blessed, and brake, and gave the loaves to his disciples, and the disciples to the multitude. And they did all eat, and were filled: and they took up of the fragments that remained twelve baskets full. And they that had eaten were about five thousand men, beside women and children."

Again, God created bread and fish aplenty here as well.

They ate fish and bread and oil that were never grown from a stalk, never mowed out of a field, never squeeze from an olive, never swam in a river or hatched as an egg....but divinely created by God Himself to sufice their needs, centuries upon centuries after the creation week had been completed.




Likewise, the Prophet Malachi and Isaiah specifically said that God created all of us.

Malachi 2:10 "Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us?"

Isaiah 43:1,6 "But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee. bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth; Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him. "

Isaiah 54:16 "Behold, I have created the blacksmith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work"







and He shall one day as The Parsons said above, create a New Jerusalem, and a New Heavens and a New Earth.

Isaiah 65:17 "For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy."

God may have done most of creation the first week; but He has, and will continue to create as He wills. Scripture has said so!

Now you've seen the Biblical evidence!

theBelovedDisciple
Dec 30th 2008, 06:47 PM
Yes and when John the Baptist rubuked the Pharisees who were claiming to be the 'sons of Abraham'.. he responded...

God could take any of these stones and make them the 'sons of Abraham'.... He could of at that time taken a stone and 'created' a son of Abraham out of it... and even if He had done it.. I don't think it would of changed those hardened hearts of those Pharisees and chief priests. But yes God can still create today.. You cannot 'limit' God.. He is far above and beyond that.

ross3421
Dec 31st 2008, 05:05 PM
[QUOTE=David Taylor;1923465]Your premise is incorrect. God finished the initial creation of the Earth and the universe at the conclusion of day 6.

However, nothing in scripture says God is limited to no more creating thereafter.

God said himself that the host of heaven and of earth were finished. Why do you not believe him?

Ge 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.


Contrarily, Scripture teaches God has at times, continued to create after those 6 days.

We are speaking of souls not bread, oil, or fish.

However did God really "create" the bread, oil, and fish at that time? No. The initial creation of these things or the making of these things were in the first 7 days. God produced more of this material for them but did not create the substance for it already exsisted. See the difference?

Same with man. All of mankind was created in the 6th day. Not in the form our human mind can relate visually. Fleshly Adam was formed out of the substance God had already created in the first 7 days (potter/clay).


and He shall one day as The Parsons said above, create a New Jerusalem, and a New Heavens and a New Earth.

I agree here with the word being used "new". But again, it is after the old is done away and speaks of the heaven and the earth only not the host of them.


Mark