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reformedct
Dec 29th 2008, 05:37 PM
just a quick question. How would you explain God sending people to hell who have grown up in a pagan culture in which the name of Jesus is never taught? like some foreign 3rd world area where no one has even heard of the Bible? If salvation is based on us choosing, how can God judge those who had no oppurtunity presented to choose Jesus?

i know every human being has a concscience, but can a person somehow, out of follwing their concsience, come to faith in Jesus Christ when they have never heard of Him?

Also, why didnt God reveal Himself and speak to ALL the nations in the Earth instead of just Israel? All those people who died in other nations who never knew who YHWH was? Did they have ippurtunity for choice?

Brother Mark
Dec 29th 2008, 05:41 PM
Generally, I stay out of these threads. But here's what scripture says about it...

Rom 1:18-21

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
NASB

God placed a witness to himself inside these men, but they rejected that witness. God in his mercy, will hide things from those that reject what light they get. For the more light one has, the more harsh the judgment. The cities of Jesus day will be judged more harshly than Sodom because Sodom didn't have the light they did. And if Sodom would have had that kind of light, they would have repented.

Matt 11:23-24
23 "And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You shall descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day. 24 "Nevertheless I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for you."
NASB

Had those miracles occurred in Sodom, Sodom would have responded to God. But they didn't get more light because they rejected the light they had just as Romans 1 speaks of.

reformedct
Dec 29th 2008, 05:55 PM
Generally, I stay out of these threads. But here's what scripture says about it...

Rom 1:18-21

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
NASB

God placed a witness to himself inside these men, but they rejected that witness. God in his mercy, will hide things from those that reject what light they get. For the more light one has, the more harsh the judgment. The cities of Jesus day will be judged more harshly than Sodom because Sodom didn't have the light they did. And if Sodom would have had that kind of light, they would have repented.

Matt 11:23-24
23 "And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You shall descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day. 24 "Nevertheless I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for you."
NASB

Had those miracles occurred in Sodom, Sodom would have responded to God. But they didn't get more light because they rejected the light they had just as Romans 1 speaks of.

i definetly believe God Himself has manifested and revealed His existence thru nature and in the conciousnce, however the Bible also says FAITH comes by Hearing and Hearing by the WOrd of God? so what if people don't hear the worD of God? Or what about the mentally challenged??

Brother Mark
Dec 29th 2008, 05:58 PM
i definetly believe God Himself has manifested and revealed His existence thru nature and in the conciousnce, however the Bible also says FAITH comes by Hearing and Hearing by the WOrd of God? so what if people don't hear the worD of God? Or what about the mentally challenged??

If God placed a witness of himself inside a man, is that not hearing God?


Rom 1:18-19

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
NASB

So then, they had faith, but they suppressed it and rejected what they knew to be truth and it was evident to them because God made it evident to them. Faith wasn't their issue.

MacGyver
Dec 29th 2008, 06:29 PM
Here is an article that I wrote on this, though I will edit it in order to not promote Catholicism....


Does God send people to Hell who have never had an opportunity to ever hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ? There are so many opinions on this that it would take lots of time to go through them all, but I am going to keep this as concise as possible.


A quote from a source edited: 1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery." Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.


Ignorance of the Gospel of Jesus Christ will be judged by God justly, and only God who is all-knowing and all-powerful can correctly determine the will of everyone who has ever lived from the beginning of time to the end of time. He is the one who knows how those people who had never heard the Gospel would have handled or mishandled their free-will if they had actually had the chance to learn about the Gospel.



Scripture gives us some good examples of how God handles ignorance (when I say ignorance I mean simply lack of knowing, not stupidity)Ö

John 15:22 If I (Jesus) had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin.


Acts 17:30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and of this he has given assurance to all men by raising him from the dead."



Both of these passages of Scripture shows that God demonstrates a great deal of flexibility when it comes to ignorance as well as a great deal of responsibility for those who are not ignorant. This same flexibility is still valid for those in this world who have had no opportunity to learn about the Gospel, even though there has been a tremendous amount of evangelization that has happened ever since Christ established the Church 2000 years ago. There are still many people throughout the Church age who have never been evangelized.



So is ignorance a blessing because of the flexibility of God? By no means because everyone will be judged by God fairly, even those who are ignorant of the Gospel will be judged by how they have followed God with what knowledge He has revealed to them. And for those of us who do have the Gospel, we should understand that we are truly blessed that God has given us the complete revelation of Jesus Christ, this is not to be viewed as a burden (God forbid!!), but it is the greatest blessing that we could ever imagine!

reformedct
Dec 29th 2008, 06:42 PM
If God placed a witness of himself inside a man, is that not hearing God?


Rom 1:18-19

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
NASB

So then, they had faith, but they suppressed it and rejected what they knew to be truth and it was evident to them because God made it evident to them. Faith wasn't their issue.


thank you for your input, this sheds some more light on the issue

i just find it reeeeaallly hard to believe that ALL the people in those nations in the OT individually supressed the truth but thats what the Bible says i guess.

BrckBrln
Dec 29th 2008, 07:01 PM
So you can be saved without knowing about Jesus Christ and His work and the Trinity?

Emanate
Dec 29th 2008, 07:10 PM
So you can be saved without knowing about Jesus Christ and His work and the Trinity?


You can be unsaved while knowing about Jesus Christ and his work and the trinity.

MacGyver
Dec 29th 2008, 07:11 PM
So you can be saved without knowing about Jesus Christ and His work and the Trinity?Yes. But God is flexible only if ignorance comes by not choosing to be so, but one who tries to follow God with what signs He has revealed to them. There are plenty of people who will only allow themselves to know just enough so they don't feel like they are required to have a true life change and full repentance.

reformedct
Dec 29th 2008, 07:18 PM
Yes. But God is flexible only if ignorance comes by not choosing to be so, but one who tries to follow God with what signs He has revealed to them. There are plenty of people who will only allow themselves to know just enough so they don't feel like they are required to have a true life change and full repentance.


im not so sure about that. even though the OT saints didnt know Jesus by name. The somehow knew Him, because Jesus said Abraham rejoiced to see my day or something like that.

If they dont know Jesus but can be saved then that would mean Muslims, Hindus and everyone else who is operating with the "light" they have will be saved, which is heresy, because all those people in the OT that were not of Israel worshipped false gods and were condenmed and killed because of it

David Taylor
Dec 29th 2008, 07:50 PM
There are plenty of people who will only allow themselves to know just enough so they don't feel like they are required to have a true life change and full repentance.

Then they are deceiving themselves into Hell. Not wanting to sound too blunt here, but noone is going to pull the wool over God's eyes.

He knows their hearts, and if they attempt to live a life deceptive to Him, to avoid responding to Him in repentance, then He will quickly escort them away telling them depart, I never knew you.

Paul taught clearly in Romans that there is no excuse.

Repentance is required of all men; a stiff, unrepentant, and haughty heart won't get anyone into Heaven.

MacGyver
Dec 29th 2008, 07:51 PM
im not so sure about that. even though the OT saints didnt know Jesus by name. The somehow knew Him, because Jesus said Abraham rejoiced to see my day or something like that.

If they dont know Jesus but can be saved then that would mean Muslims, Hindus and everyone else who is operating with the "light" they have will be saved, which is heresy, because all those people in the OT that were not of Israel worshipped false gods and were condenmed and killed because of itHere are a couple of passages I posted above

John 15:22 If I (Jesus) had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin.


Acts 17:30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and of this he has given assurance to all men by raising him from the dead."

I believe that those from other religions who have had no chance of knowing anything differently but have tried every way possible to follow God with a pure heart will be judged by God justly. I believe they will be judged by God according to a number of things, such as how they live, but most of all by God's all-knowing ability to know how that person would have responded to the Gospel if they actually had it presented to them.

MacGyver
Dec 29th 2008, 07:54 PM
Then they are deceiving themselves into Hell. Not wanting to sound too blunt here, but noone is going to pull the wool over God's eyes.

He knows their hearts, and if they attempt to live a life deceptive to Him, to avoid responding to Him in repentance, then He will quickly escort them away telling them depart, I never knew you.

Paul taught clearly in Romans that there is no excuse.

Repentance is required of all men; a stiff, unrepentant, and haughty heart won't get anyone into Heaven.You got it!:thumbsup:

The Parson
Dec 29th 2008, 08:05 PM
Yes. But God is flexible only if ignorance comes by not choosing to be so, but one who tries to follow God with what signs He has revealed to them. There are plenty of people who will only allow themselves to know just enough so they don't feel like they are required to have a true life change and full repentance.That would qualify as willful ignorance like the ones of Isreal who rejected the Savior wouldn't it? Romans 10:3

Ascender
Dec 29th 2008, 08:09 PM
just a quick question. How would you explain God sending people to hell who have grown up in a pagan culture in which the name of Jesus is never taught? like some foreign 3rd world area where no one has even heard of the Bible? If salvation is based on us choosing, how can God judge those who had no oppurtunity presented to choose Jesus?

i know every human being has a concscience, but can a person somehow, out of follwing their concsience, come to faith in Jesus Christ when they have never heard of Him?

Also, why didnt God reveal Himself and speak to ALL the nations in the Earth instead of just Israel? All those people who died in other nations who never knew who YHWH was? Did they have ippurtunity for choice?

4,125 people die and go to hell every hour. Do they have opportunity? Of course! If they seek they will find. If they knock it will be opened to them. If they ask, they will receive. If they reject it is not because of God but the bride -- we have a poor witness, a bad attitude and a lot of secularism to overcome.

Additionally, their conscience will not convict or save them but may lead them to a place or person who can point the way to find salvation in Christ.

MacGyver
Dec 29th 2008, 08:26 PM
That would qualify as willful ignorance like the ones of Isreal who rejected the Savior wouldn't it? Romans 10:3Yes. I see the same spirit of rejection with some people today, such as those who allow their world views to shape their Christian beliefs instead of allowing Christianity to shape their world views.

reformedct
Dec 29th 2008, 08:31 PM
4,125 people die and go to hell every hour. Do they have opportunity? Of course! If they seek they will find. If they knock it will be opened to them. If they ask, they will receive. If they reject it is not because of God but the bride -- we have a poor witness, a bad attitude and a lot of secularism to overcome.

Additionally, their conscience will not convict or save them but may lead them to a place or person who can point the way to find salvation in Christ.

but the Bible repeatedly says no one seeks God, not even one?

Brother Mark
Dec 29th 2008, 08:54 PM
but the Bible repeatedly says no one seeks God, not even one?

But it also mentions that he draws all men. So while no one seeks apart from his drawing, he draws all men. Though according to Romans 1, there are those that reject the drawing he places within them. Saul said he "forced himself". He made himself go against that which he knew to be true.

reformedct
Dec 29th 2008, 09:00 PM
lol this is soooooo confusing

the Bible repeatedly calls the unsaved enemies of God, suppressors of Truth, and unable to submit

then turns around and tells them to submit lol not mocking God but i am truly baffled by all this. Am i alone here?

The Bible says God chose Israel because of His love not because of their righteousness no? Didnt God already ordain for Jesus to be born thru Issac before Abraham was even born? So did Abraham choose God? because in Joshua it says the Abraham family worshipped other Gods and God called Abraham out?

just a tad confusing

Brother Mark
Dec 29th 2008, 09:50 PM
lol this is soooooo confusing

the Bible repeatedly calls the unsaved enemies of God, suppressors of Truth, and unable to submit

then turns around and tells them to submit lol not mocking God but i am truly baffled by all this. Am i alone here?

The Bible says God chose Israel because of His love not because of their righteousness no? Didnt God already ordain for Jesus to be born thru Issac before Abraham was even born? So did Abraham choose God? because in Joshua it says the Abraham family worshipped other Gods and God called Abraham out?

just a tad confusing

By faith we understand. Did God choose Israel? Yes. But did he also reject them? Yes. But in the end, he will also restore Israel, IMO.

Believe the word and hold to it's promises. There were questions about scriptures I had for many years. Sometimes God answered them years after I first asked. Sometimes, the initial answer satisfied me but God continued to open my understanding even later.

There are some things my finite mind cannot comprehend yet. How does God, with a word, create the world? I don't know. I can't explain it. But I believe it. Why do we believe some things we can't explain but search for answers to other things we cannot explain? I don't know. We are a complicated creation.

Just trust the Lord and depend on Him.

Ascender
Dec 29th 2008, 10:01 PM
just a quick question. How would you explain God sending people to hell who have grown up in a pagan culture in which the name of Jesus is never taught? like some foreign 3rd world area where no one has even heard of the Bible? If salvation is based on us choosing, how can God judge those who had no oppurtunity presented to choose Jesus?

i know every human being has a concscience, but can a person somehow, out of follwing their concsience, come to faith in Jesus Christ when they have never heard of Him?

Also, why didnt God reveal Himself and speak to ALL the nations in the Earth instead of just Israel? All those people who died in other nations who never knew who YHWH was? Did they have ippurtunity for choice?


This all is straw, wood and hay -- Salvation is conditional and always has been. Conditional statements abound in the OT and the NT both. If..then... Now, as to security, I agree with your goal, I think too often we look at what is behind and are distracted by the storm rather than keeping our eyes on the author and finisher of our faith and reaching forward to the prize and high calling.

Veretax
Dec 30th 2008, 04:47 PM
just a quick question. How would you explain God sending people to hell who have grown up in a pagan culture in which the name of Jesus is never taught? like some foreign 3rd world area where no one has even heard of the Bible? If salvation is based on us choosing, how can God judge those who had no oppurtunity presented to choose Jesus?

i know every human being has a concscience, but can a person somehow, out of follwing their concsience, come to faith in Jesus Christ when they have never heard of Him?

Also, why didnt God reveal Himself and speak to ALL the nations in the Earth instead of just Israel? All those people who died in other nations who never knew who YHWH was? Did they have ippurtunity for choice?


Brother Mark pointed out the passage in Romans already. They have creation and the conscience they were born with. However, note that while I am not Calvinist, my understanding of Unconditional Election back when i was Calvinist was that the unconditional part has to do with our inability to Merit grace. Christ died because he loved us not because we deserved to be saved.

(now you may argue with me that what I just said was the T in TULIP, but again I'm not Calvinist anymore and do not subscribe to TULIP as a summation of salvation anymore.)

BrckBrln
Dec 30th 2008, 05:50 PM
They have creation and the conscience

Creation and conscience can't save a person. You can't infer the Virgin Birth from the stars or from your imagination. And if you don't believe in the Virgin Birth then I don't see how you can be saved. Same with the Trinity and Christ's work on the cross. You need Special Revelation to be saved, whether that be from the Bible, a person preaching from the Bible, or a direct revelation from God Himself.

RogerW
Dec 30th 2008, 06:15 PM
Generally, I stay out of these threads. But here's what scripture says about it...

Rom 1:18-21

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
NASB

God placed a witness to himself inside these men, but they rejected that witness. God in his mercy, will hide things from those that reject what light they get. For the more light one has, the more harsh the judgment. The cities of Jesus day will be judged more harshly than Sodom because Sodom didn't have the light they did. And if Sodom would have had that kind of light, they would have repented.

Romans one is speaking of natural revelation God has given unto every man. The doctrine of justification is not by natural revelation, law or ceremony, but by the righteousness of Christ imputed through the grace of God and received by faith. It is through the gospel of Christ that the righteousness of God is revealed (Ro 3:25,26). The way to obtain salvation is through the gospel of Christ, for therein is the righteousness of God revealed (Ro 5:19; 2Co 5:21).

There are two revelations given from heaven: one is the grace of God in Christ (the righteousness of God upon all who believe) supernaturally given, and the other is the wrath and judgement of God upon unbelievers.

This wrath is revealed in the law, in the judgement of God upon Adam, Sodom, Noah's world and countless other examples, and in the cross of Christ, on which God spared not His own Son, Who bore the sin of His sheep (Ps 5:5; 7:11; Jo 3:36). All men have some knowledge of the divine God through creation and conscience but they repress it and give way to evil only.

Every man, born in Adam will remain in this state, supressing the knowledge God has given them naturally, unless/until by supernatural revelation through the gospel they are saved by grace through faith that is not of themselves but the gift of God. Who will be given this supernatural revelation through the gospel? "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ."

Many Blessings,
RW

Brother Mark
Dec 30th 2008, 06:39 PM
Romans one is speaking of natural revelation God has given unto every man.

God himself placed the revelation in man. I wouldn't call that natural.

Rom 1:18-19

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
NASB

God himself taught them the truth. That is what I would call supernatural, not natural.

Veretax
Dec 30th 2008, 06:52 PM
God himself placed the revelation in man. I wouldn't call that natural.

Rom 1:18-19

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
NASB

God himself taught them the truth. That is what I would call supernatural, not natural.


And they who are still in unbelief reject it. This is what I believe.

Brother Mark
Dec 30th 2008, 06:55 PM
And they who are still in unbelief reject it. This is what I believe.

That's what the scriptures say.

Rom 1:18

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
NASB

RogerW
Dec 30th 2008, 07:37 PM
God himself placed the revelation in man. I wouldn't call that natural.

Rom 1:18-19

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
NASB

God himself taught them the truth. That is what I would call supernatural, not natural.

It is not supernatural revelation that comes through the gospel that is revealed to all men. It says "the wrath of God is revealed from heaven". But unrighteous men, (there is none righteous, no not one Ro 3) supress what God has revealed in them through conscience.

God gave us eyes to see His creation, that testifies of Him, and beholds His glory. He gave us minds and hearts which should in an intelligent and thoughtful way recognize and love God. But every man, born in Adam chooses not to walk in the light of the revelation God has given us. Therefore they are (all of them) without excuse. When man have nothing more than the manifestation of the living God in the works of creation, providence, the law and conscience, they have enough to render them without excuse before God, for it is their duty to make good use of these things, and the cause of their not doing so is the evil hearts (Ro 2:14,15).

God has given every man the means of knowing there is a God, for the world does not exist by chance, nor could it sustain itself. His eternity is evident, for He is maker of all things. His power upholds all things and continues their existance. His wisdom arranged all things in their proper order. His goodness is evident, for there is no other cause but Himself for the creation and preservation of the earth. His justice punishes the guilty.

Knowing all this, man neither glorified Him as God, nor honored Him as Creator, nor worship Him as the Lord and providential guardian of the universe. Fallen man forsake the truth of God and turned to vanity of their own reason and foolish imaginations. Their foolish minds and hearts, when turned away from God, could only plunge into darkness of error, delusion, and unrighteousness. Therefore God withdrew His providential restraints and left them to the pollution of their fallen nature.

Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Ro 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Ro 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Ro 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

The only thing that will save man from His fallen, corrupt nature is the supernatural revelation of Christ found in the gospel of salvation. Unless man is born again by the power of God, having been elected from the foundation of the world for salvation, there is no hope for them.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Dec 30th 2008, 07:38 PM
And they who are still in unbelief reject it. This is what I believe.

Every man will remain in unbelief unless they are among the elect of God unto salvation.

Blessings,
RW

Partaker of Christ
Dec 30th 2008, 07:50 PM
Brother Mark pointed out the passage in Romans already. They have creation and the conscience they were born with. However, note that while I am not Calvinist, my understanding of Unconditional Election back when i was Calvinist was that the unconditional part has to do with our inability to Merit grace. Christ died because he loved us not because we deserved to be saved.

(now you may argue with me that what I just said was the T in TULIP, but again I'm not Calvinist anymore and do not subscribe to TULIP as a summation of salvation anymore.)

Then why the need for a preacher?

Brother Mark
Dec 30th 2008, 07:58 PM
Every man will remain in unbelief unless they are among the elect of God unto salvation.

Blessings,
RW

Israel was the elect, and they rejected God and remain in unbelief. ;)

12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

Diolectic
Dec 30th 2008, 09:30 PM
just a quick question. How would you explain God sending people to hell who have grown up in a pagan culture in which the name of Jesus is never taught? like some foreign 3rd world area where no one has even heard of the Bible? If salvation is based on us choosing, how can God judge those who had no oppurtunity presented to choose Jesus?

i know every human being has a concscience, but can a person somehow, out of follwing their concsience, come to faith in Jesus Christ when they have never heard of Him?The extent of Godís commandments is the exact extent of manís ability, and the extent of manís ability is the extent of Godís commandments; each one establishes and determines the limitations and boundaries of the other, and since man will be judged by their own ability to know that commandments, the extent of manís accountability will be the extent of manís ability. A man will not be accountable for that which he was not capable of; he will not be judged for that which was outside of the realm of his control.

If a man has never heard of Jesus, He will be judged according to what He does knows.
If He knows that there is a God and He is accountable to the God which he knows about; If he doesn't condemns himself because of his own shortcomings which his own conscience tells him, God will condemn him, by the law of his own conscience.
If or when he condemns himself, he will fall at the mercy of God in His grace.

When God condemns you, you utterly fall at the mercy of the law which is unyielding and sentences "guilty" all violators of its precepts, without regard to purpose.
The letter of the law requires strict adherence to every precept, it is all expressed in one word--obey.

Men who reject the truth that the law, which ever it is, the law of concsience or of Gods; if they reject that it is right & good in it's judgment, they are liable for the sin which they dwell in & deny that their concience or God is right in judgment from the law.

When they acknowledge the truth that their concience or the law is right & good in it's judgment, they condemn themselves and justify God in His judgment.

Since they condemn themselves as their own concience does or that the law does, they will ask for mercy which is from the grace (kindness) of God, because they believe in God.

alethos
Dec 30th 2008, 11:22 PM
just a quick question. How would you explain God sending people to hell who have grown up in a pagan culture in which the name of Jesus is never taught? like some foreign 3rd world area where no one has even heard of the Bible? If salvation is based on us choosing, how can God judge those who had no oppurtunity presented to choose Jesus?

i know every human being has a concscience, but can a person somehow, out of follwing their concsience, come to faith in Jesus Christ when they have never heard of Him?

Also, why didnt God reveal Himself and speak to ALL the nations in the Earth instead of just Israel? All those people who died in other nations who never knew who YHWH was? Did they have ippurtunity for choice?

There isn't a single verse of Scripture that says God sends people to hell. What we do find in Scripture is that God desires the salvation of all men. (1 Tim 2:3-4)

quiet dove
Dec 30th 2008, 11:41 PM
There isn't a single verse of Scripture that says God sends people to hell. What we do find in Scripture is that God desires the salvation of all men. (1 Tim 2:3-4)

Mat 25:46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Heb 6:1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Yes God desires for all men to be saved, but the choice is up to the man, if they decide against it, eternal punishment/ judgement is what they will receive. Whether it is called Hell, or whatever it is called, it is eternal separation from Almighty God.

Brother Mark
Dec 30th 2008, 11:45 PM
There isn't a single verse of Scripture that says God sends people to hell. What we do find in Scripture is that God desires the salvation of all men. (1 Tim 2:3-4)

I would tend to agree with that statement. God doesn't send them there and he didn't make hell for men. Hell was made for the devil and his angels.

However, men do go to hell because they reject God's offer of salvation. They go there of their own accord not because God sends them there.

alethos
Dec 30th 2008, 11:56 PM
I would tend to agree with that statement. God doesn't send them there and he didn't make hell for men. Hell was made for the devil and his angels.

However, men do go to hell because they reject God's offer of salvation. They go there of their own accord not because God sends them there.

I'm in total agreement with that

Butch5
Dec 31st 2008, 12:09 AM
Every man will remain in unbelief unless they are among the elect of God unto salvation.

Blessings,
RW


Scripture please!

RogerW
Dec 31st 2008, 01:48 AM
Israel was the elect, and they rejected God and remain in unbelief. ;)

12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

There is and always has been an elect remnant from the Nation of Israel, saved by grace through faith, the rest, who were never the elect unto salvation, have rejected God and remain in unbelief. This elect remnant He gave power to become the sons of God...how? By believing on His name...how? Being born of God, not of blood, nor the will of the flesh, nor the will of man, but of God.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Israel as a whole nation was never the elect of God unto salvation. The nation as a whole was chosen by God to be a special people. God set His love on them, and they were to be holy, IF they keep His covenant He will show them love and mercy, IF they do not they will perish. Not so with the elect remnant from the nation saved by grace through faith.

De 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
De 7:7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
De 7:8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
De 7:9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
De 7:10 And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.
De 7:11 Thou shalt therefore keep the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which I command thee this day, to do them.

The nation must remember the LORD thy God, for if they forget and turn to other gods they will perish.

De 8:18 But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.
De 8:19 And it shall be, if thou do at all forget the LORD thy God, and walk after other gods, and serve them, and worship them, I testify against you this day that ye shall surely perish.
De 8:20 As the nations which the LORD destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient unto the voice of the LORD your God.

But God reserves for Himself the elect remnant according to the election of grace.

Ro 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Ro 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Many Blessings,
RW

Athanasius
Dec 31st 2008, 02:01 AM
just a quick question. How would you explain God sending people to hell who have grown up in a pagan culture in which the name of Jesus is never taught? like some foreign 3rd world area where no one has even heard of the Bible? If salvation is based on us choosing, how can God judge those who had no oppurtunity presented to choose Jesus?

If there are 10 righteous people...

Brother Mark
Dec 31st 2008, 02:13 AM
There is and always has been an elect remnant from the Nation of Israel, saved by grace through faith, the rest, who were never the elect unto salvation, have rejected God and remain in unbelief. This elect remnant He gave power to become the sons of God...how? By believing on His name...how? Being born of God, not of blood, nor the will of the flesh, nor the will of man, but of God.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Absolutely correct. When man receives God's gift, God wills his salvation. A drowning man can't will himself to safety. God gives man the power to become the sons of God. The verses go together. Man has the power to become the sons of God when he receives Him.

The elect of Israel have been cut off. Can't rightly get around that scripture in John and Romans.

RogerW
Dec 31st 2008, 04:44 AM
Absolutely correct. When man receives God's gift, God wills his salvation. A drowning man can't will himself to safety. God gives man the power to become the sons of God. The verses go together. Man has the power to become the sons of God when he receives Him.

The elect of Israel have been cut off. Can't rightly get around that scripture in John and Romans.

It is not the elect of Israel that have been cut off, it's the "rest". Israel; the nation, was blinded (cut off), but not the elect remnant.

Ro 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

The elect remnant are those from the nation whom God foreknew. Very clearly God has not cast away His elect people. God has reserved the remnant (seven thousand men), who have not bowed the knee to Baal. In this manner (even so then), God reserving them, there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Ro 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Ro 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Ro 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Ro 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Ro 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Has the nation stumbled so completely that there is no longer any hope of salvation for them? Not at all. Through their fall salvation has gone unto all the world. Now those from the nation remaining in unbelief can be saved through the gospel of salvation, just as the Gentiles, if they do not remain in unbelief.

God foreknows those He predestines to be conformed to the image of His Son. These He calls, justifies and glorifies. He does not cast away His people whom He foreknows.

Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Ro 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Those whom God foreknows from the nation are the remnant according to the election of grace. The rest of the nation remains blinded in unbelief, and will not be saved unless they believe through the message of the gospel of salvation.

Only those ordained to eternal life believe.

Ac 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Who are ordained to eternal life? The elect according to the foreknowledge of God, to an inheritance reserved in heaven. The elect according to the foreknowledge of God are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation. Since the elect are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation, how can the nation in unbelief, hardened, and blinded be the elect of God? They cannot be...only the remnant according to election of grace are the elect from the nation.

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

God has reserved for salvation His elect remnant from the nation of Israel by grace, and He is presently reserving His elect peoples from every nation of the world. When the last of His elect come into the kingdom, then time will be finished when Christ will come again to establish His eternal kingdom on the re-newed or re-created earth.

Many Blessings,
RW

Brother Mark
Dec 31st 2008, 04:55 AM
It is not the elect of Israel that have been cut off, it's the "rest". Israel; the nation, was blinded (cut off), but not the elect remnant.

If they were never attached, how can they be cutoff? The pharisees were cut off because they refused to fulfill their purpose.

Grace and peace Roger.