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third hero
Dec 30th 2008, 12:21 AM
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. Revelation 19:15

As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time. Daniel 7:12

And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom [is] an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. Daniel 7:27

Ask of me, and I shall give [thee] the heathen [for] thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth [for] thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. Psalm 2:8-9

And it shall come to pass, [that] every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. Zechariah 14:16

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Revelation 20:4

What do these verses tell me? They tell me that when the Lord comes, there will be those who will not be destroyed by Him, but rather are given their lives and are ruled by the Lord and His Saints.

I have read in here that some believe that there will be no survivors, which these verses refute. Others say that these survivors are people who have been left behind when the rapture happened before the Great Tribulation, which Revelation 7 refutes.

So who are these people? I say that they are the heathen nations that Jesus sets aside as sheep in Matthew 25:31-46. These are those who are required in Zechariah 14:16 to come to Jerusalem yearly to worship the King of Kings.

I guess that this is an invitation to everyone to do two things. Show your perspective and disprove all of the others. Hopefully, we can gain some clarity here.

DIZZY
Jan 4th 2009, 10:38 AM
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. Revelation 19:15

As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time. Daniel 7:12

And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom [is] an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. Daniel 7:27

Ask of me, and I shall give [thee] the heathen [for] thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth [for] thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. Psalm 2:8-9

And it shall come to pass, [that] every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. Zechariah 14:16

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Revelation 20:4

What do these verses tell me? They tell me that when the Lord comes, there will be those who will not be destroyed by Him, but rather are given their lives and are ruled by the Lord and His Saints.

I have read in here that some believe that there will be no survivors, which these verses refute. Others say that these survivors are people who have been left behind when the rapture happened before the Great Tribulation, which Revelation 7 refutes.

So who are these people? I say that they are the heathen nations that Jesus sets aside as sheep in Matthew 25:31-46. These are those who are required in Zechariah 14:16 to come to Jerusalem yearly to worship the King of Kings.

I guess that this is an invitation to everyone to do two things. Show your perspective and disprove all of the others. Hopefully, we can gain some clarity here.


Hi third hero,
For a start I have nothing to prove or disprove and I come with the word of God to this post.



So who are these people? I say that they are the heathen nations that Jesus sets aside as sheep in Matthew 25:31-46. These are those who are required in Zechariah 14:16 to come to Jerusalem yearly to worship the King of Kings.


I would like to discuss what has been written here.

How do you come to the conclusion that those mortals who go into the millennial kingdom are heathen? You have quoted Matthew 25:31-46. Let's have a look at those verses.

Matthew 25:31-46
31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’ 37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’ 41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’ 44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

When the Lord returns He gathers His elect from all corners of the earth and from heaven. He seperates the sheep ( His elect ) from the goats ( non believers ).

Matthew 13:30 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=13&verse=30&version=50&context=verse)
Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

Matthew 24:31 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&verse=31&version=50&context=verse)
And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=13&verse=27&version=50&context=verse)
And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

God made a promise that Israel would one day inherit all the land that Abraham's eye could see. All God asked for was total obedience from His chosen people, if they disobeyed they would be ruled over by other nations until they turned away from their sin and seeked their God.

When Christ returns He gathers His elect from the earth. These are the ones who are left from the nations for the Lord seperates the sheep and the goats.

The sheep belong to the Lord and go into the millennial kingdom in their mortal bodies, the goats are cast out into outer darkness.

The ones that are gathered from the heavens are those who had been raptured and those who had died during the tribulation period let's not forget the old testament saints aswell these three groups return to reign with the Lord over those sheep who have survived when the nations are destroyed. By saying sheep I am refering to the Lord's elect.

Not one none believer goes into the millennial kingdom.

third hero
Jan 5th 2009, 06:45 AM
When Christ returns He gathers His elect from the earth. These are the ones who are left from the nations for the Lord seperates the sheep and the goats.

The sheep belong to the Lord and go into the millennial kingdom in their mortal bodies, the goats are cast out into outer darkness.

The ones that are gathered from the heavens are those who had been raptured and those who had died during the tribulation period let's not forget the old testament saints aswell these three groups return to reign with the Lord over those sheep who have survived when the nations are destroyed. By saying sheep I am refering to the Lord's elect.

Not one none believer goes into the millennial kingdom.

But, doesn't the idea of surviving believers from the Great Tribulation live as mortals in the Millennium contradict 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 and Zechariah 14:16-20?

According to 1 Thessalonians 4:15, the events in the next verses happen at the return of the Lord.

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

From there, Paul goes on to say:

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The fact that the term, "we which are alive and remain" brings the focus back to those in the previous verse. This says that at the return of the Lord, the dead in Christ will rise first, and then we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will rise up, and meet the Lord in the Air. From that moment on, we are forever with the Lord.

This "rapture" can not happen before the dead in CHrist rise first, and that cann not happen until the Lord returns, as verse 25 clearly tells us. When we meet the lord in the air, there wil no longer be any believers on the earth, because they will all be in the air.

Also, Zechariah 14:16 clearly states that those who are made to go up to Jerusalem to worship the Lord are "heathen", which are unbelieving people. These are not righteous, and they are not the "saints" that were "left behind". They are the heathen people who were not at Armageddon, who have had their lives prolonged for a little while (Daniel 7:12) who will have to go to Jerusalem yearly at the Feast of Tabernacles (Zechariah 14:16-20).

So, I have to disagree with you, because the scriptures show that the people of God wil be either raised from the dead, or in the air, gathered by the angels of God, to be with Christ forever.

John146
Jan 5th 2009, 05:11 PM
But, doesn't the idea of surviving believers from the Great Tribulation live as mortals in the Millennium contradict 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 and Zechariah 14:16-20?

According to 1 Thessalonians 4:15, the events in the next verses happen at the return of the Lord.

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

From there, Paul goes on to say:

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The fact that the term, "we which are alive and remain" brings the focus back to those in the previous verse. This says that at the return of the Lord, the dead in Christ will rise first, and then we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will rise up, and meet the Lord in the Air. From that moment on, we are forever with the Lord.

This "rapture" can not happen before the dead in CHrist rise first, and that cann not happen until the Lord returns, as verse 25 clearly tells us. When we meet the lord in the air, there wil no longer be any believers on the earth, because they will all be in the air.

Also, Zechariah 14:16 clearly states that those who are made to go up to Jerusalem to worship the Lord are "heathen", which are unbelieving people. These are not righteous, and they are not the "saints" that were "left behind". They are the heathen people who were not at Armageddon, who have had their lives prolonged for a little while (Daniel 7:12) who will have to go to Jerusalem yearly at the Feast of Tabernacles (Zechariah 14:16-20).

So, I have to disagree with you, because the scriptures show that the people of God wil be either raised from the dead, or in the air, gathered by the angels of God, to be with Christ forever.He showed you a problem with your understanding of Matthew 25:31-46. Can you please specifically address it? You see the sheep as being heathen, do you not? How could the heathen be called "the righteous" as they are called in verse 37 (and 46)? Only believers could be called "the righteous" and only believers could inherit eternal life in the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world.

David Taylor
Jan 5th 2009, 06:58 PM
I say that they are the heathen nations that Jesus sets aside as sheep in Matthew 25:31-46.

Avoiding doctrinal interpretation, let's just look at number of N.T. verses that reference sheep, and associate them with either "The Heathen" or "The Faithful". What do the exampled verses tell us?


Verses from the N.T. showing "sheep" are representative of "Heathen People"

Heathen Sheep Verses = 0





Verses from the N.T. showing "sheep" are representative of "Faithful People"Faithful Sheep Verses = 14

Matthew 7:15 "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."

Matthew 25:33 "And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father"

Matthew 26:31 "Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad."

Mark 14:27 "And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered."

John 10:2 "10:2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. "

John 10:4 "And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice."

John 10:11 "I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep."

John 10:14 "I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep."

John 10:27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: "

John 21:16 "He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep. "

Romans 8:36 "As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. "

Hebrews 13:20 "Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant"

I Peter 2:24 "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls."

third hero
Jan 5th 2009, 07:40 PM
He showed you a problem with your understanding of Matthew 25:31-46. Can you please specifically address it? You see the sheep as being heathen, do you not? How could the heathen be called "the righteous" as they are called in verse 37 (and 46)? Only believers could be called "the righteous" and only believers could inherit eternal life in the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world.

I have answered this question over and over again. Although I have answered this question before, I'll do it one more time.

We start with verse 31.
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

At this point, the designated time that Lord Jesus is talking about is the point after His return, when he fulfills Daniel 7:13-14.

Verse 32
And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:

Now, up to this point, we see that the Lord gathers the nations and separats them. If these were the only two verses found in this portion of scripture, then I would have no arguement. So, let's go on.

Verse 33
And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

More evidence that you may be correct.

Verse 34
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Looks like I may not have a leg to stand on, since it appears that the ones from the nations that are separated are those who have been faithful to Lord Jesus.

verse 35
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Verse 36
Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
verse 37
Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink?
Verse 38
When saw we thee a stranger, and took [thee] in? or naked, and clothed [thee]?
verse 39
Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

I grouped these verses together for a reason. The Lord calls them righteous, but he clarifies why he does so. He says to them that he was fed by them when He was thirsty, clothed by them when he was naked, Taken in by them when he was a stranger, visited by them when he was sick, and camr to him when He was imprisoned. The ones called righteous asked this very important question. They asked when did they do all of these things in which he is calling them righteous for? Remember, Jesus was never sick, he was NOT clothed by anyone when they took off his robe and casts lots for it, and was known by the Israelites while he walked the earth. Jesus then directly answers their question, and that answer is why I contend that this judgment to the nations and not to the believers.

Verse 40
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.

Jesus judges the nations based on their treatment of His Brethern. Who are they? Are they not the Believers? If the nations are judged for their treatment of the believers, then how can the believers be lumped into that judgement?

I believe that verse 40 is the key to understanding the context of this judgment. The believers are not among the nations, because the nation's treatment of the Believers is the basis of the Lord's judging of them. This clarifies the "sheep" and the "righteous" classifications stated here. The nations that treated the believers well during the greatest period of human suffering ever would be classified as "righteous", although they could not be the same "righteous" as the "Brethern" whom the Lord bases His judgment of them on.

Verse 41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
verse 42
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Verse 43
I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.


Notice that He is basing the same judgment that he gave to those He calls sheep to those that he is calling goats, except the goats are being tossed into the Lake. Why? Because they did not do to him what the righteous did to Him.

Verse 44
Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

Likened to the "righteous" in verse 37, the wicked asked Him when did they not aid Him.

verse 45
Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me.

Again, like verse 40, the wicked are judged on their treatment of "the least of these", a reference back to His brethern. Who are His brethern? The believers.

Now I ask you, if the treatment of the believers is the basis for the King separating the nations, how are the believers a part of the nations that are being judged?

Raybob
Jan 5th 2009, 07:44 PM
...So who are these people? I say that they are the heathen nations that Jesus sets aside as sheep in Matthew 25:31-46. These are those who are required in Zechariah 14:16 to come to Jerusalem yearly to worship the King of Kings.

How could a heathen nation be referred to as sheep? Doesn't that go completely against everything Christ preached?

Luk 11:23 He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.

Raybob

third hero
Jan 5th 2009, 07:50 PM
Avoiding doctrinal interpretation, let's just look at number of N.T. verses that reference sheep, and associate them with either "The Heathen" or "The Faithful". What do the exampled verses tell us?


Verses from the N.T. showing "sheep" are representative of "Heathen People"

Heathen Sheep Verses = 0

Look up the term, "Lost sheep", and we see a different scenario.

I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments. Psalm 119:176

My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away [on] the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace. Jeremiah 50:6

But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Matthew 10:6

Who are these lost sheep? Are they righteous, or lost? Are they saved, or lost? The idea of sheep being lost tells me that the term sheep is not exclusive to the saved or the righteous.

third hero
Jan 5th 2009, 07:53 PM
How could a heathen nation be referred to as sheep? Doesn't that go completely against everything Christ preached?

Luk 11:23 He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.

Raybob

Again, sheep is a metaphor. Jesus uses it to describe the condition of mankind. Man, like sheep, are helpless without a shepherd. He has labeled some of mankind as lost sheep. He has labelled his own people as lost sheep. The term sheep does not refer to the righteous, just to the condition of mankind.

So no, it does not contradict anything.

threebigrocks
Jan 5th 2009, 08:53 PM
I grouped these verses together for a reason. The Lord calls them righteous, but he clarifies why he does so. He says to them that he was fed by them when He was thirsty, clothed by them when he was naked, Taken in by them when he was a stranger, visited by them when he was sick, and camr to him when He was imprisoned. The ones called righteous asked this very important question. They asked when did they do all of these things in which he is calling them righteous for? Remember, Jesus was never sick, he was NOT clothed by anyone when they took off his robe and casts lots for it, and was known by the Israelites while he walked the earth. Jesus then directly answers their question, and that answer is why I contend that this judgment to the nations and not to the believers.

Verse 40
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.

Jesus judges the nations based on their treatment of His Brethern. Who are they? Are they not the Believers? If the nations are judged for their treatment of the believers, then how can the believers be lumped into that judgement?

I believe that verse 40 is the key to understanding the context of this judgment. The believers are not among the nations, because the nation's treatment of the Believers is the basis of the Lord's judging of them. This clarifies the "sheep" and the "righteous" classifications stated here. The nations that treated the believers well during the greatest period of human suffering ever would be classified as "righteous", although they could not be the same "righteous" as the "Brethern" whom the Lord bases His judgment of them on.

Verse 41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
verse 42
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Verse 43
I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.


Notice that He is basing the same judgment that he gave to those He calls sheep to those that he is calling goats, except the goats are being tossed into the Lake. Why? Because they did not do to him what the righteous did to Him.

This has got to be the most interesting interpretation of this piece of scripture i've ever seen.

The righteous are the ones who did these things for the least of these: clothed the naked, fed the hungry, gave water to those who are thirsty, visited the sick and those in prison.

The least of these are those who these things were given to or done for. They are without. It's the homeless guy under the bridge, the family who's foodstamps ran out in two weeks and mom and dad are out of work, it's those dying alone and unable to care for themselves, it's those who need a drink of clean water because they are thirsty, it's those who are locked up in prison because of sin.

Those who didn't do these things to those who were in need - are the goats. Those who did - are the sheep. Goats go into eternal punishment, the sheep who are righteous into eternal life.

If sheep did the same thing as goats, wouldn't they be goats? If those sheep are unrighteous (as you said they didn't do what the righteous did, that would make them unrighteous) why would they escape the same judgement of the goats?

We are for Him or against Him. Not just sort of or kinda.


Look up the term, "Lost sheep", and we see a different scenario.



So are you talking about sheep or lost sheep? That makes a huge difference. Are you not considered a sheep that follows Christ, as I am? Then wouldn't that put you in the sheep category? His sheep hear His voice and they follow Him. A lost sheep can't hear His voice, because it's wandered from the flock. You said in the first post of yours I quoted above that the brethren are the sheep.

So, which is it? Lost or not?

threebigrocks
Jan 5th 2009, 08:55 PM
Again, sheep is a metaphor. Jesus uses it to describe the condition of mankind. Man, like sheep, are helpless without a shepherd. He has labeled some of mankind as lost sheep. He has labelled his own people as lost sheep. The term sheep does not refer to the righteous, just to the condition of mankind.

So no, it does not contradict anything.

How are sheep referring to all mankind when we know there are two types of mankind - sheep and goats?

John146
Jan 5th 2009, 09:18 PM
I have answered this question over and over again. Although I have answered this question before, I'll do it one more time.

We start with verse 31.
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

At this point, the designated time that Lord Jesus is talking about is the point after His return, when he fulfills Daniel 7:13-14.

Verse 32
And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:

Now, up to this point, we see that the Lord gathers the nations and separats them. If these were the only two verses found in this portion of scripture, then I would have no arguement. So, let's go on.

Verse 33
And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

More evidence that you may be correct.

Verse 34
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Looks like I may not have a leg to stand on, since it appears that the ones from the nations that are separated are those who have been faithful to Lord Jesus.

verse 35
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Verse 36
Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
verse 37
Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink?
Verse 38
When saw we thee a stranger, and took [thee] in? or naked, and clothed [thee]?
verse 39
Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

I grouped these verses together for a reason. The Lord calls them righteous, but he clarifies why he does so. He says to them that he was fed by them when He was thirsty, clothed by them when he was naked, Taken in by them when he was a stranger, visited by them when he was sick, and camr to him when He was imprisoned. The ones called righteous asked this very important question. They asked when did they do all of these things in which he is calling them righteous for? Remember, Jesus was never sick, he was NOT clothed by anyone when they took off his robe and casts lots for it, and was known by the Israelites while he walked the earth. Jesus then directly answers their question, and that answer is why I contend that this judgment to the nations and not to the believers.

Verse 40
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.

Jesus judges the nations based on their treatment of His Brethern. Who are they? Are they not the Believers? If the nations are judged for their treatment of the believers, then how can the believers be lumped into that judgement?

I believe that verse 40 is the key to understanding the context of this judgment. The believers are not among the nations, because the nation's treatment of the Believers is the basis of the Lord's judging of them. This clarifies the "sheep" and the "righteous" classifications stated here. The nations that treated the believers well during the greatest period of human suffering ever would be classified as "righteous", although they could not be the same "righteous" as the "Brethern" whom the Lord bases His judgment of them on.

Verse 41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
verse 42
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Verse 43
I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.


Notice that He is basing the same judgment that he gave to those He calls sheep to those that he is calling goats, except the goats are being tossed into the Lake. Why? Because they did not do to him what the righteous did to Him.

Verse 44
Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

Likened to the "righteous" in verse 37, the wicked asked Him when did they not aid Him.

verse 45
Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me.

Again, like verse 40, the wicked are judged on their treatment of "the least of these", a reference back to His brethern. Who are His brethern? The believers.

Now I ask you, if the treatment of the believers is the basis for the King separating the nations, how are the believers a part of the nations that are being judged?Out of all that you wrote here I see nothing that explains how the sheep could be wicked nations and would also be called "the righteous". I don't believe it makes any sense at all that the sheep would be both wicked and righteous as you seem to be claiming. Remember, in verse 46 it is the righteous that inherit eternal life. Obviously, the wicked do not inherit eternal life. This means that "the righteous" only refers to believers.

John146
Jan 5th 2009, 09:24 PM
Again, sheep is a metaphor. Jesus uses it to describe the condition of mankind. Man, like sheep, are helpless without a shepherd. He has labeled some of mankind as lost sheep. He has labelled his own people as lost sheep. The term sheep does not refer to the righteous, just to the condition of mankind.

So no, it does not contradict anything.I showed you before that in Matthew 25:31-46 the sheep are the ones that Jesus also called the righteous. We can see that very clearly.

31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

The sheep and goats are separated with the sheep on His right hand. He talks to the sheep first. Then we see in verse 37 that they answer Him and they are called "the righteous". It's pretty obvious that He is calling the sheep "the righteous", wouldn't you agree?

John146
Jan 5th 2009, 09:32 PM
Look up the term, "Lost sheep", and we see a different scenario.

I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments. Psalm 119:176

My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away [on] the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace. Jeremiah 50:6

But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Matthew 10:6

Who are these lost sheep? Are they righteous, or lost? Are they saved, or lost? The idea of sheep being lost tells me that the term sheep is not exclusive to the saved or the righteous.I believe you've missed something here, though. In Matthew 25:32 the separation of the sheep and goats is compared to how a shepherd separates "his sheep from the goats". This means that Jesus was implying that the sheep are His while the goats are not. The lost sheep are lost because they don't have the right shepherd. The lost sheep follow wrong shepherds who lead them astray as Jeremiah 50:6 talks about. Matthew 25:31-46 only speaks of sheep that belong to Jesus. None of them are lost because they are His.

third hero
Jan 6th 2009, 03:37 AM
This has got to be the most interesting interpretation of this piece of scripture i've ever seen.

The righteous are the ones who did these things for the least of these: clothed the naked, fed the hungry, gave water to those who are thirsty, visited the sick and those in prison.

So, everyone in jail, who is sick, who is a stranger, who is starving is Lord Jesus's brethern? Interesting indeed. One of the things that I use to interpret scripture is the material present. I do not add my own beliefs into scripture, as that would cloud the interpretation. I do not add scripture to what is there for that same reason. Like I have shown all of you here, I have taken one passage, read what is there, and interpret based on what is there. The results are what you are arguing against right now.



The least of these are those who these things were given to or done for. They are without. It's the homeless guy under the bridge, the family who's foodstamps ran out in two weeks and mom and dad are out of work, it's those dying alone and unable to care for themselves, it's those who need a drink of clean water because they are thirsty, it's those who are locked up in prison because of sin.

That is your interpretation. My interpretation is that when the Lord states that "least of these MY BREETHERN", He is talking about the believers. Prisoners are not His unless they have chosen to follow Him. The starving are not His unless they acknowledge Him as Lord and Savior. The homeless are not His unless they call Him their Savior. The words, "my brethern" shows the entire point of His judgment. The people are judged based on their treatment of His people, the believers.


Those who didn't do these things to those who were in need - are the goats. Those who did - are the sheep. Goats go into eternal punishment, the sheep who are righteous into eternal life.

If sheep did the same thing as goats, wouldn't they be goats? If those sheep are unrighteous (as you said they didn't do what the righteous did, that would make them unrighteous) why would they escape the same judgement of the goats?

We are for Him or against Him. Not just sort of or kinda.

Again, you are reading your interpretation of sheep into the passage, which leads to misinterpretation. You see sheep and you automatically think "Believer". I do not think that way. I see sheep in the context in which it is written. Sometimes it means the Believer, sometimes it means the way God views people. It is not limited to just one definition.

Now, because you are hung up on the term sheep, you do not agree that the people who are being judged are the people of he world, sans the Believers. No matter what I say, because you are hung up on sheep, we will not agree. Therefore, I say, just so that no one gets irritated, that we just agree to disagree.... either that or show me how I am wrong in saying that the judgment here is based on the people's treatment of the Lord's Brethern. Because verse 40 and 45 are the basis for me writing what I have written.


So are you talking about sheep or lost sheep? That makes a huge difference. Are you not considered a sheep that follows Christ, as I am? Then wouldn't that put you in the sheep category? His sheep hear His voice and they follow Him. A lost sheep can't hear His voice, because it's wandered from the flock. You said in the first post of yours I quoted above that the brethren are the sheep.

So, which is it? Lost or not?

Are the sheep that are lost, are they sheep? Whether they are lost or found, are they all still not sheep? This is the hang up that happens when one is stuck on sheep. I have shown scriptures that show sheep as being lost, a concept that is foreign to those who believe that all sheep are saved sheep.

If I was worshipping the Lord, and I turn around and backslide, am I a sheep? If I am, then I am a lost sheep. If someone who is classified as a sheep sins against God, for that moment until they repent, they are lost. If a sheep dies in sin, then I guess they turn into goats. So which one is it? You tell me. I am not hung up on sheep, as I know that humans are capable of being anything, including sheep, including goats, including sheep that turn into goats, including goats that turn into sheep.

third hero
Jan 6th 2009, 03:46 AM
I believe you've missed something here, though. In Matthew 25:32 the separation of the sheep and goats is compared to how a shepherd separates "his sheep from the goats". This means that Jesus was implying that the sheep are His while the goats are not. The lost sheep are lost because they don't have the right shepherd. The lost sheep follow wrong shepherds who lead them astray as Jeremiah 50:6 talks about. Matthew 25:31-46 only speaks of sheep that belong to Jesus. None of them are lost because they are His.

Actually, I didn;t miss anything. If you read verse 32, it says that he separates the nations "as" a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats: -Matthew 25:32

sim·i·le (sĭm'ə-lē) Pronunciation Key (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahd4/pronkey.html)
n. A figure of speech in which two essentially unlike things are compared, often in a phrase introduced by like or as, as in "How like the winter hath my absence been" or "So are you to my thoughts as food to life" (Shakespeare).

[Middle English, from Latin, likeness, comparison, from neuter of similis, like; see similar.]

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2006 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
Cite This Source (http://dictionary.reference.com/cite.html?qh=simile&ia=ahd4)

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=simile

Verse 32 is a classic example of a simile. The division of the nations is like a shepherd dividing sheep from goats. The simile found in Matthew 25:32 is not the action, but rather the comparison of the actual action. The actual action is the nations are being divided, with the ones that the Lord says aided His brethern are saved, while the rest are destroyed.

This portion of scripture is going to be the fulfillment of Daniel 7:11-12. the beast is hurled into the all-consuming flame, and the rest of the beast are stripped of their authority and yet, their lives are prolonged for a season. This also shows how the Lord picks out the families who will be "the heathen" who will go yearly to Jerusalem to worship Him during the Feast of Tabernacles. It is the descendents of these who will be deceived by Satan when He is released from the abyss after 1000 years, and their descendents will be the ones who will be burned with fire from Heaven, when Lord Jesus is done with this planet. To me, the pieces all fit.

third hero
Jan 6th 2009, 03:52 AM
How are sheep referring to all mankind when we know there are two types of mankind - sheep and goats?

How about the lost sheep. Are they sheep or goats. Are sheep always sheep, or are they transformed from goats to sheep. And lost sheep, are they still sheep, or do they transform into goats?

The truth of the matter is that we are not dealing with sheep here, we are dealing with humans. The people who are classified as sheep may not necessarily be sheep. They can be believers though. The people who are unbelievers may not be goats, they can be unbelievers though. Jesus uses a lot of allegory and metaphors, which sheep and goats are two of them. He is not judgming sheep and goats, he is judging mankind. The ones who He spares, he calls sheep. Are they actually sheep, or are they people who the Lord has pardoned? the goats, are they goats, or are they condemned people?

third hero
Jan 6th 2009, 04:04 AM
Out of all that you wrote here I see nothing that explains how the sheep could be wicked nations and would also be called "the righteous". I don't believe it makes any sense at all that the sheep would be both wicked and righteous as you seem to be claiming. Remember, in verse 46 it is the righteous that inherit eternal life. Obviously, the wicked do not inherit eternal life. This means that "the righteous" only refers to believers.

I do not add my personal beliefs into my interpretations, because if I did, the interpretation would be biased, and not accurate. You want me to say that all of the nations of the world are wicked, and thus, none of the "wicked" can be called righteous. I am not going to say that.

You, like many amils, believe that there are just two types of people in this world. The saved and the lost. I do not think that way. I believe that there are three types of people in this world: the saved, the heathen, and the lost.

When all mankind was born after Adam, they all were classified as heathen, meaning people who knew not God. The wicked are ones who knew God and chose to disobey Him. The saved are those who, when they learned of God, decided to honor Him. The heathen are not judged until after they are dead, because until that point, the heathen will be able to decide whether to become saved, or lost. The terminating period when the heathen becomes lost is after they die, and the heathen did not choose to be saved. then, they are lost, and as Revelation 20:11-15 tells us, they are judged and destroyed based on their works.

It is unfair to just lump all mankind into two categories that not even God has done. God does not hate people just because they do not know Him. He pities them if they die not knowing Him, and judges them justly. But the point of the matter is that God is not condemning people justbecause they do not know Him. Remember, while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. This is important, because it shows us that God does not hate mankind, and that He will do anything He can to save us from ourselves, which is evident by the sacrifice of His only Begotten Son. Before you were saved, were you a heathen, or wicked? I know that I was a heathen, and I never purposed myself to do wicked things. I do not know if that was the case for everyone, but the fact is that not everyone who was a heathen was wicked, although all of the wicked were indeed heathens first.

In Matthew 25, the Lord is gathering the nations to Him. He does not mention that they were all dead, and so I must assume that they are still alive. So, when the Lord judges them, He judges living people. Those who have done what He wanted them to do, which is to aid the Believers in their time of distress, will be permitted to live longer. The ones who did not will be executed. This is the true meaning of Matthew 25:31-45.

I see you continue to throw into the mix verse 46, and that is your right. I do not agree with it, because verse 46 summarizes the entire chapter, which includes the ten talents and the ten virgins. Remember, there were righteous and wicked there as wee, and the wicked are hurled into the abyss.

third hero
Jan 6th 2009, 04:32 AM
I believe you've missed something here, though. In Matthew 25:32 the separation of the sheep and goats is compared to how a shepherd separates "his sheep from the goats". This means that Jesus was implying that the sheep are His while the goats are not. The lost sheep are lost because they don't have the right shepherd. The lost sheep follow wrong shepherds who lead them astray as Jeremiah 50:6 talks about. Matthew 25:31-46 only speaks of sheep that belong to Jesus. None of them are lost because they are His.


The lost sheep, are they still sheep? If they are, then aren't they His? If they are not, then are they not judged at all, since they are not goats, but lost sheep? The whole matter is based on one's interpretation of a simile, which I find to be a bit frustrating. The shepherd separating the "sheep from goats" is the simile, not the action, The action is the Lord separating the nations, and that separation is based on that nations' treatment of the believers.

Now maybe I am reading things into your post here, but it seems to me that you are saying that the heathen are not His. Well, here are some verses for you.

Psalms 2:6
Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
Verse 7
I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Verse 8
Ask of me, and I shall give [thee] the heathen [for] thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth [for] thy possession.

Daniel 7:13
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Verse 14
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed.
Verse 21
I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Verse 22
Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
Verse 26
But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy [it] unto the end.
Verse 27
And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom [is] an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Zechariah 14:16
And it shall come to pass, [that] every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Verse 17
And it shall be, [that] whoso will not come up of [all] the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
Verse 18
And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that [have] no [rain]; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Psalms 2 tells us that upon the Lord's request, God will give to Him the heathen as an inheritance. Daniel 7 shows the Lord giving to His Son, the Son of Man, the kingdoms of the earth, and all peoples will serve Him. This also shows that the Lord will have the saints rule over the nations with Him. Zechariah 14 shows us that the heathen are going to be ruled by Lord Jesus from Jerusalem, and He shall smite them with no rain if they fail to show up at the city of Jerusalem to worship the Lord during the Feast of Tabernacles. Isaiah 9 tells us that the Son of God, the one called Mighty God, prince of peace, Everlasting Father, shall have the government on His shoulders.

My point? When the Lord returns, He will inherit the world, and all of the people in it, fulfilling all of the scriptures that I have given in this post. The fact of the matter will be that when the Lord comes, the entire world will be His, and the people included, to be judged and ruled as He sees fit. This is the point that all Amils miss, which is the point that most premils do not overlook. You say that the heathen are not his, when scripture tells us that when He comes and judges the nations, the heathen will indeed be His, and He will judge them all. In fact, as Psalms 2 illustrates, the heathen will be His inheritance, the saints will aid Him in posessing the kingdoms of the heathen, the saints will aid Him in ruling the kingdoms of the heathen that He will control, (which will be all of them), and He willl be in charge of running all of the governments of the world.

Raybob
Jan 6th 2009, 07:34 AM
...My point? When the Lord returns, He will inherit the world, and all of the people in it, fulfilling all of the scriptures that I have given in this post. The fact of the matter will be that when the Lord comes, the entire world will be His, and the people included, to be judged and ruled as He sees fit. This is the point that all Amils miss, which is the point that most premils do not overlook.

If you believe 1 Cor. 15, then you know that happened at the cross.

1Co 15:25-28 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. (26) The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. (27) For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. (28) And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.



You say that the heathen are not his, when scripture tells us that when He comes and judges the nations, the heathen will indeed be His, and He will judge them all. In fact, as Psalms 2 illustrates, the heathen will be His inheritance, the saints will aid Him in posessing the kingdoms of the heathen, the saints will aid Him in ruling the kingdoms of the heathen that He will control, (which will be all of them), and He willl be in charge of running all of the governments of the world.

Psalm 2 is clearly about the first coming of Christ, 2000 years ago.

Psa 2:7-8 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. (8) Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

He did that already.;)

Raybob

third hero
Jan 6th 2009, 06:22 PM
If you believe 1 Cor. 15, then you know that happened at the cross.

1Co 15:25-28 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. (26) The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. (27) For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. (28) And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Death was not completely defeated on the cross. Even now, we have the promise of eternal life, and when the Lord comes, we will cash in on that promise. Even then, Death will not be completedly defeated. Weakened? absolutely. Defeated when it comes to the saints? Absolutely. However, the heathen will still have to contend with death. That is why it is still around in Isaiah 65:19-20. after the Lord comes and jusges the heathen, the heathen will still have to age, albeit the life cycle of men willl be lengthened considerably by the power of Lord Jesus, but death will still be in existence until after Satan's final defeat, when the Lord defeats once and for all death, sin, the wicked, and everything that offends God, which is what I believe the scriptures that you posted in 1 Corinthians 15 mean.



Psalm 2 is clearly about the first coming of Christ, 2000 years ago.

Psa 2:7-8 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. (8) Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

True, the portion of scripture that you have mentioned has happened already, when John the Baptist baptized Lord Jesus. They heard the Father proclaim this to Him.

However, the rest of Psalm 2 is not fulfilled yet. The Lord is not ruling the entire world from Jerusalem yet, and the heathen are not His inheritance yet. They will be, but they are not right now. Right now, God is bringing about more of Lord Jesus's brothers and sisters, by us being obedient to Father God, like Lord Jesus did, by following everything that Lord Jesus said for us to do. (didn't want any confusion to start here about what I believe).

John146
Jan 6th 2009, 06:46 PM
Actually, I didn;t miss anything. If you read verse 32, it says that he separates the nations "as" a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats: -Matthew 25:32

sim·i·le (sĭm'ə-lē) Pronunciation Key (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahd4/pronkey.html)
n. A figure of speech in which two essentially unlike things are compared, often in a phrase introduced by like or as, as in "How like the winter hath my absence been" or "So are you to my thoughts as food to life" (Shakespeare).

[Middle English, from Latin, likeness, comparison, from neuter of similis, like; see similar.]

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2006 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
Cite This Source (http://dictionary.reference.com/cite.html?qh=simile&ia=ahd4)

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=simile

Verse 32 is a classic example of a simile. The division of the nations is like a shepherd dividing sheep from goats. The simile found in Matthew 25:32 is not the action, but rather the comparison of the actual action. The actual action is the nations are being divided, with the ones that the Lord says aided His brethern are saved, while the rest are destroyed. This means that you're saying entire nations either aid His brethren or entire nations do not aid His brethren and it's not speaking of individuals. Do entire nations go to visit the sick or those in prison? Do you think it is really reasonable to think that everyone in an entire nation would have either aided the least of these or didn't aid the least of these? Or do you think a nation can still inherit the kingdom despite having some people within it that did not help the least of these? If so, what percentage of the people would have had to have helped the least of these in order for the nation to qualify to inherit the kingdom?


This portion of scripture is going to be the fulfillment of Daniel 7:11-12. the beast is hurled into the all-consuming flame, and the rest of the beast are stripped of their authority and yet, their lives are prolonged for a season. This also shows how the Lord picks out the families who will be "the heathen" who will go yearly to Jerusalem to worship Him during the Feast of Tabernacles. It is the descendents of these who will be deceived by Satan when He is released from the abyss after 1000 years, and their descendents will be the ones who will be burned with fire from Heaven, when Lord Jesus is done with this planet. To me, the pieces all fit.So, you're saying that the sheep are the heathen, who are also called "the righteous" in verses 37 and 46, and they inherit eternal life in the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world. Can you tell me why God would prepare a kingdom from the foundation of the world for the heathen? Seems more like a special blessing that He would give to believers like you and me and not to heathen. And can heathen really do anything to earn a reward from God like that? Remember, without faith it is impossible to please God (Heb 11:6).

third hero
Jan 6th 2009, 07:00 PM
This means that you're saying entire nations either aid His brethren or entire nations do not aid His brethren and it's not speaking of individuals. Do entire nations go to visit the sick or those in prison? Do you think it is really reasonable to think that everyone in an entire nation would have either aided the least of these or didn't aid the least of these? Or do you think a nation can still inherit the kingdom despite having some people within it that did not help the least of these? If so, what percentage of the people would have had to have helped the least of these in order for the nation to qualify to inherit the kingdom?

I am not saying anything. I am only showing what that passage actually says. Nations shall be judged on their treatment of the Believers, and yes, whole nations will be destroyed based on their horrible treatment of the Believers, and conversely, whole nations will be "saved" based on thier treatment of the Believers.

Why are you asking me who is going to be spared and who is going to be eliminated? Am I the Lord, that I should know these things? Am I God, that I should know which nation will be hurled into the Lake of Fire and which one is going to be spared? why are you asking me if I think anything is reasonable? I am not God, that I can make those kinds of decisions. The Scripture says that Lord Jesus, the one who will be King over this entire world, will make that decision. I am not Him, nor do I want to be. Ask Him for those answers. My job is not to think of anything, but rather to show what scripture says, even when it does not make human sense. I am not about to reason away scripture. I would rather either just believe what is written, or take it for what it is and ask of the Lord for understanding. In my case, I understand this scripture completely, and I understand the Lord's methods. I believe that He will be just in His judgment, and I stand by that.


So, you're saying that the sheep are the heathen, who are also called "the righteous" in verses 37 and 46, and they inherit eternal life in the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world. Can you tell me why God would prepare a kingdom from the foundation of the world for the heathen? Seems more like a special blessing that He would give to believers like you and me and not to heathen. And can heathen really do anything to earn a reward from God like that? Remember, without faith it is impossible to please God (Heb 11:6).


You are adding verse 46 into the passage of 31-45. Like I have said, verse 46 culminates the entire chapter, where we see three judgments here. We see the one where the five wise virgins were ready and were received by the bridegroom when the other five were not, and they were left behind. We also see the judgment of the people based on what they have done with the talents that the Lord gave them, with the one who did nothing with his talent being marked as "wicked", and we have the judging of the nations. In the first two examples, the "righteous" were given eternal life, while the "wicked" were hurled into Hell. It is the "righteous" in verses 37-30 who are given the right to enter the kingdom of God on earth, and at that point, that is where their blesing ends. They are NOT promised eternal life, but rather life on earth under the reign of Lord Jesus. Verse 46 covers the entire chapter, and sums it up in one sentence. It is not meant to be included with any of the situation that the Lord presented. Rather, it is my opinion that verse 46 is a stand-alone verse that summarizes the entire chapter.

John146
Jan 6th 2009, 07:00 PM
The lost sheep, are they still sheep? If they are, then aren't they His? If they are not, then are they not judged at all, since they are not goats, but lost sheep? The whole matter is based on one's interpretation of a simile, which I find to be a bit frustrating. The shepherd separating the "sheep from goats" is the simile, not the action, The action is the Lord separating the nations, and that separation is based on that nations' treatment of the believers.At the time when Christ returns all people will be considered either sheep or goats. The sheep are His while the goats are not. That is why the sheep inherit eternal life in the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world while the goats are cast into everlasting fire for everlasting punishment. This passage clearly contrasts what will happen to believers on judgment day and what will happen to unbelievers. It's consistent with what scripture as a whole teaches regarding the day of judgment.


Now maybe I am reading things into your post here, but it seems to me that you are saying that the heathen are not His. Well, here are some verses for you.

Psalms 2:6
Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
Verse 7
I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Verse 8
Ask of me, and I shall give [thee] the heathen [for] thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth [for] thy possession.Why did you stop quoting there?

Psalm 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

The heathen mentioned in this passage will be destroyed. Unless you think someone can survive being broken and dashed into pieces.


Daniel 7:13
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Verse 14
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed.
Verse 21
I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Verse 22
Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
Verse 26
But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy [it] unto the end.
Verse 27
And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom [is] an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.No mention of the heathen there.


Zechariah 14:16
And it shall come to pass, [that] every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Verse 17
And it shall be, [that] whoso will not come up of [all] the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
Verse 18
And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that [have] no [rain]; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.One is only considered to be heathen if they do not obey the Lord. He smites those who reject Him and refuse to submit to Him.


Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Psalms 2 tells us that upon the Lord's request, God will give to Him the heathen as an inheritance. Daniel 7 shows the Lord giving to His Son, the Son of Man, the kingdoms of the earth, and all peoples will serve Him. This also shows that the Lord will have the saints rule over the nations with Him. Zechariah 14 shows us that the heathen are going to be ruled by Lord Jesus from Jerusalem, and He shall smite them with no rain if they fail to show up at the city of Jerusalem to worship the Lord during the Feast of Tabernacles. Isaiah 9 tells us that the Son of God, the one called Mighty God, prince of peace, Everlasting Father, shall have the government on His shoulders.

My point? When the Lord returns, He will inherit the world, and all of the people in it, fulfilling all of the scriptures that I have given in this post. But you seem to overlook it when it talks about Him destroying those who do not know God and obey the gospel of Christ (2 Thess 1:7-8). What unbeliever does not fall into that description?


The fact of the matter will be that when the Lord comes, the entire world will be His, and the people included, to be judged and ruled as He sees fit. This is the point that all Amils miss, which is the point that most premils do not overlook.You seem to miss the parts about Him destroying those who oppose Him. You like to refer to Rev 19:15 but it seems that you completely overlook the part of Him treading the winepress of God's wrath.


You say that the heathen are not his, when scripture tells us that when He comes and judges the nations, the heathen will indeed be His, and He will judge them all.It says He will dash them into pieces. Who is the one overlooking things again?


In fact, as Psalms 2 illustrates, the heathen will be His inheritance, the saints will aid Him in possessing the kingdoms of the heathen, the saints will aid Him in ruling the kingdoms of the heathen that He will control, (which will be all of them), and He will be in charge of running all of the governments of the world.Back to Matthew 25:31-46, there will be only two groups at that time. Sheep and goats. Sheep clearly refer to believers because unbelievers will certainly not inherit eternal life in the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world. The goats clearly refer to unbelievers since they are cast into everlasting fire for everlasting punishment. Since we know believers will have immortal bodies at that time and the unbelievers are all cast into the fire, this doesn't leave any mortals left to populate an earthly millennial kingdom.

John146
Jan 6th 2009, 07:09 PM
I am not saying anything. I am only showing what that passage actually says. Nations shall be judged on their treatment of the Believers, and yes, whole nations will be destroyed based on their horrible treatment of the Believers, and conversely, whole nations will be "saved" based on thier treatment of the Believers.So, you're saying that at that time all people in any given nation will either all be people who helped the least of these or all people who did not help the least of these? If so, I don't find that to be very reasonable.


Why are you asking me who is going to be spared and who is going to be eliminated? Am I the Lord, that I should know these things? Am I God, that I should know which nation will be hurled into the Lake of Fire and which one is going to be spared?Aren't there believers and unbelievers within every nation? You don't have to be God to know that if an entire nation was cast into the everlasting fire then it would have to include believers, which makes no sense.


why are you asking me if I think anything is reasonable? I am not God, that I can make those kinds of decisions.We can use scripture along with some common sense to determine what would be reasonable or not in this case.


The Scripture says that Lord Jesus, the one who will be King over this entire world, will make that decision. I am not Him, nor do I want to be. Ask Him for those answers. My job is not to think of anything, but rather to show what scripture says, even when it does not make human sense. I am not about to reason away scripture. I would rather either just believe what is written, or take it for what it is and ask of the Lord for understanding. In my case, I understand this scripture completely, and I understand the Lord's methods. I believe that He will be just in His judgment, and I stand by that. But if you have believers being cast into the everlasting fire for everlasting punishment just because they happen to be in the wrong nation at the wrong time then certainly that has to be questioned, right?


You are adding verse 46 into the passage of 31-45.Do you know of anyone else besides yourself who tries to separate verse 46 from verses 31-45? I've never seen anyone try to do that before. When verse 46 says "these shall go away into everlasting punishment" Jesus is referring to the ones He had just been talking about which is the goats. Is there any reason to think "the righteous" are not the same "the righteous" mentioned in verse 37, which are the sheep? If you're going to try to separate verse 46 from verses 31-45 you have to give a valid reason for doing so and you have not done that.


Like I have said, verse 46 culminates the entire chapter, where we see three judgments here. We see the one where the five wise virgins were ready and were received by the bridegroom when the other five were not, and they were left behind. We also see the judgment of the people based on what they have done with the talents that the Lord gave them, with the one who did nothing with his talent being marked as "wicked", and we have the judging of the nations. In the first two examples, the "righteous" were given eternal life, while the "wicked" were hurled into Hell. It is the "righteous" in verses 37-30 who are given the right to enter the kingdom of God on earth, and at that point, that is where their blesing ends. They are NOT promised eternal life, but rather life on earth under the reign of Lord Jesus. Verse 46 covers the entire chapter, and sums it up in one sentence. It is not meant to be included with any of the situation that the Lord presented. Rather, it is my opinion that verse 46 is a stand-alone verse that summarizes the entire chapter.What basis is there for trying to say that the righteous of verse 37 are not the same righteous of verse 46? It seems rather convenient for you to try to say that the two verses are not referring to the same people. Matthew 25:31-46 is doing the same thing that the other two parables of Matthew 25 are doing: contrasting the fates of believers and unbelievers on the day Christ returns.

third hero
Jan 6th 2009, 07:33 PM
At the time when Christ returns all people will be considered either sheep or goats. The sheep are His while the goats are not. That is why the sheep inherit eternal life in the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world while the goats are cast into everlasting fire for everlasting punishment. This passage clearly contrasts what will happen to believers on judgment day and what will happen to unbelievers. It's consistent with what scripture as a whole teaches regarding the day of judgment.

Jesus will determine who are the "sheep" and who are the "goats". The people of the world will not be "either sheep or goats" until the Lord makes that distinction.


Why did you stop quoting there?

Psalm 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

The heathen mentioned in this passage will be destroyed. Unless you think someone can survive being broken and dashed into pieces.

Dashing a pot to piees is not the same as destruction. Remember the Lord parable about "the rock".

And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. -Matthew 21:44

The one who is broken is not destroyed, but broken. We, as believers, when we first started our journey of faith, we were broken, so that what was rotten about us can be removed. This is not the same as being ground to powder, which is destruction. The same context is applied here, where the potter breaks the vessel into pieces. It is broken, not destroyed. If a potter wanted to piece back the vessel again, especially in light of today's technology, all he would need is superglue, and he can throw away the unwanted pieces. Good luck trying to glue back together powder. If something is ground to powder, then it is truly destroyed. breaking an object is only going to make it cease to be what it originally was. A broken vessel can be pieced back together, while a powdered vessel is truly destroyed. This is the meaning of "dashed them to pieces" that is mentioned in both Psalm 2 and Revelation 19. Remember, He will rule over them, and He can not rule over anything that is destroyed. Even though He will break the nations, as Matthew 25:31-45 states, he will rule over the pieces.


No mention of the heathen there.
WHo are the "all peoples, nations and languages" then? Are they not the heathen, which emcompass the entire earth? They are not saints, because the Saints are the ones posessing the Kingdom, and it is explicitly stated that the saints will aid the King in ruling the Kingdom. So the "peoples nations and languages" are NOT the believers, because the believers are the saints in this passage.


One is only considered to be heathen if they do not obey the Lord. He smites those who reject Him and refuse to submit to Him.

Heathen, by definition, are those who do not know God. I have brought that definition out some posts ago, from a dictionary. When someone or some nation rejects Lord Jesus, they cease to be heathen and are classified as wicked.


But you seem to overlook it when it talks about Him destroying those who do not know God and obey the gospel of Christ (2 Thess 1:7-8). What unbeliever does not fall into that description?

I am overlooking nothing. I am seeing the Lord's destruction in Revelation 19. Unlike you, I do not extend that destruction to the entire world at the point of the Lord's return. I see a period when the Beast and his army is defeated, with no survivors. Afterwards I see the Lord establishing His Kingdom on this earth, with the nations being gathered to Him and judged, based on their treatment of the Believers. Jesus is taking into consideration the definition of the term Heathen, and is judging them appropriately.


You seem to miss the parts about Him destroying those who oppose Him. You like to refer to Rev 19:15 but it seems that you completely overlook the part of Him treading the winepress of God's wrath.

There's a word that you are still overlooking in Revelation 19:15. that word is "rule".

And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Two things are noted here.
1. the place where they will feel the wrath of God is called the winepress of God, which is the place where the angel gathers the kiings of the world and their armies to. (Revelation 14:17-20; 16:16)
2. The Lord will both break and rule over the nations of the world.

None of these examples show the world being destroyed. The only destroying will take place when the Lord wipes out the armies of the world and when the Lord takes away the offending nations after he destroys the Beast's armada.


It says He will dash them into pieces. Who is the one overlooking things again?

Again, the term is break and rule.


Back to Matthew 25:31-46, there will be only two groups at that time. Sheep and goats. Sheep clearly refer to believers because unbelievers will certainly not inherit eternal life in the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world. The goats clearly refer to unbelievers since they are cast into everlasting fire for everlasting punishment. Since we know believers will have immortal bodies at that time and the unbelievers are all cast into the fire, this doesn't leave any mortals left to populate an earthly millennial kingdom.

what was the world originally supppose to be like? Wasn't it suppose to be a place where god would live with men? If the Lord comes and rules the earth from Jerusalem, then wouldn't that be what the world was originally intended to be like?

The only thing clear about the judgment in Matthew 25:31-45 is the fact that the nations are judged based on their treatment of the believers. Nothing else is clear, even the sheep and the goat references. And again, you still tack on verse 46, which is something that we will not see eye to eye on.

Again, the Lord will make that distinction. He will call someone a sheep and He will call someone a goat. He will base that on how that nation treated the Believers when they were sick, strangers, naked, hungry and in jail. I am not making any of this up. This is what the scripture states. He does not make this judgment on whether they believed in Him or not, because if He had have, He would have mentioned it in any of the verses between 31 and 45, none of which He did. This is why I am not about to make the same mistake as many do by interjecting my personal beliefs into interpreting scripture. I want to take in every detail, so I do not overlook anything.

third hero
Jan 6th 2009, 07:48 PM
So, you're saying that at that time all people in any given nation will either all be people who helped the least of these or all people who did not help the least of these? If so, I don't find that to be very reasonable.

I believe the term is. "break and rule". The Lord does have the ability to take those He will spare out of a country that He will destroy. Hence the potter's reference. Break and rule. Break the nations, separate the offending from the not as offending, and get rid of the offending nations while placing the not-so-offensive in a different nation. That's not so hard to understand.


Aren't there believers and unbelievers within every nation? You don't have to be God to know that if an entire nation was cast into the everlasting fire then it would have to include believers, which makes no sense.

Jesus is not going to judge the Believers based on how they treated each other. He is going to judge the believers based on their amount of preparedness and their ability to use what God gave them. (Matthew 25:1-30). This is why I say that the believers are not going to be part of the judgment in matthew 25:31-45, because they are going to be the basis for the Lord judging the nations. By then, the righteous will have already been separated freom the rest of the world. That is why the first 30 verses were dedicated to the judgment of believers.


We can use scripture along with some common sense to determine what would be reasonable or not in this case.

Really? Is that how God works? Common sense would say that if scripture says that Elijah will make the path of the Lord straight, that Elijah would have been the one who would have done it. However, Jesus didn't use common anything, as John the baptisit actually fulfilled Elijah's role. No sense would have figured that out. I would much rather let scripture spealkk for itself, and if the Lord has a differing idea on how to fulfill something, I'll wait on Him to say so. Reasoning, especially the wisdom of men, is folly to God.


But if you have believers being cast into the everlasting fire for everlasting punishment just because they happen to be in the wrong nation at the wrong time then certainly that has to be questioned, right?

What part of "the believers are not part of the Matthew 25:31-45 judgement" do you not comprehend?


Do you know of anyone else besides yourself who tries to separate verse 46 from verses 31-45? I've never seen anyone try to do that before. When verse 46 says "these shall go away into everlasting punishment" Jesus is referring to the ones He had just been talking about which is the goats. Is there any reason to think "the righteous" are not the same "the righteous" mentioned in verse 37, which are the sheep? If you're going to try to separate verse 46 from verses 31-45 you have to give a valid reason for doing so and you have not done that.

I have found out that what many people believe contradict what the Bible actually says. I learned that a long time ago. I do not rely on other peopole to tell me what I am to believe. I see scripture, read it, understand it, and show my level of understanding. I need not people to "confirm" what I believe. I know that sounds arrogant, but this is what I live by. Many people can be wrong, and that is proven on the daily basis.

Besides, did Martin Luther have people backing him when he nail the 95 offensess of the RCC back then? It didn't seem to concern him then, and it does not concern me now.


What basis is there for trying to say that the righteous of verse 37 are not the same righteous of verse 46? It seems rather convenient for you to try to say that the two verses are not referring to the same people. Matthew 25:31-46 is doing the same thing that the other two parables of Matthew 25 are doing: contrasting the fates of believers and unbelievers on the day Christ returns.

They are given admission into the Kingdom of God on earth. They are not given eternal life. That difference is what I base my thinking on.

Raybob
Jan 6th 2009, 08:38 PM
...I am overlooking nothing. I am seeing the Lord's destruction in Revelation 19. Unlike you, I do not extend that destruction to the entire world at the point of the Lord's return. I see a period when the Beast and his army is defeated, with no survivors. Afterwards I see the Lord establishing His Kingdom on this earth, with the nations being gathered to Him and judged, based on their treatment of the Believers. Jesus is taking into consideration the definition of the term Heathen, and is judging them appropriately..

I want to know if I understand you correctly. Do you believe that when Jesus comes for His church (2nd advent) that all the non-believers around the world that aren't in the military at this specific battle will go on with life as usual except that they will have a new king and his followers with rods of iron to keep them in line?

Raybob

BroRog
Jan 6th 2009, 09:13 PM
Questions:

1. Where are the dead?
2. Where are the books of life?
3. Why is there no mention of a resurrection?
4. Why is the scene on earth and not in Heaven?

John146
Jan 6th 2009, 09:57 PM
I believe the term is. "break and rule". The Lord does have the ability to take those He will spare out of a country that He will destroy. Hence the potter's reference. Break and rule. Break the nations, separate the offending from the not as offending, and get rid of the offending nations while placing the not-so-offensive in a different nation. That's not so hard to understand.Where does Matthew 25:31-46 say anything about that?


Jesus is not going to judge the Believers based on how they treated each other.No, He is going to judge all people based on how they treated the least of His brethren. Believers will pass with flying colors because we do help the least of these because we have the Spirit dwelling in us and leading us to do those things. Do you really think unbelievers would be rewarded for good works? Isn't it true that without faith it is impossible to please God? So, how could these people who don't have faith please God by their works?


He is going to judge the believers based on their amount of preparedness and their ability to use what God gave them. (Matthew 25:1-30). This is why I say that the believers are not going to be part of the judgment in matthew 25:31-45, because they are going to be the basis for the Lord judging the nations. By then, the righteous will have already been separated freom the rest of the world. That is why the first 30 verses were dedicated to the judgment of believers.Are you trying to say that Matthew 25:31-45 doesn't mention the righteous?

33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

Not only are they called the righteous in verse 37 but they are called "blessed of my Father". That doesn't seem like something Jesus would say to unbelievers. How could unbelievers be blessed of the Father?


Really? Is that how God works? Common sense would say that if scripture says that Elijah will make the path of the Lord straight, that Elijah would have been the one who would have done it. However, Jesus didn't use common anything, as John the baptisit actually fulfilled Elijah's role. No sense would have figured that out. I would much rather let scripture spealkk for itself, and if the Lord has a differing idea on how to fulfill something, I'll wait on Him to say so. Reasoning, especially the wisdom of men, is folly to God.You missed my point. I'm talking about things like what I showed above. You try to say the sheep are not believers and then I show you that they are also called the righteous and blessed of the Father. Even after showing you that, you still try to say they are not believers. How can it be possible that unbelievers would be called righteous and blessed of the Father? I just can't see it and I doubt anyone else but you sees it that way, either.


What part of "the believers are not part of the Matthew 25:31-45 judgement" do you not comprehend?No need to start with the condescending tone, Doug. I've never seen anyone suggest that there are no believers among the sheep before, so give me a chance to get used to this new idea. For a minute there, I had forgotten that you believed that none of the sheep are believers.


I have found out that what many people believe contradict what the Bible actually says. I learned that a long time ago. I do not rely on other peopole to tell me what I am to believe.Good. Neither do I. But I'm not aware of any doctrines where only one person believes the right way while everyone else is wrong.


I see scripture, read it, understand it, and show my level of understanding. I need not people to "confirm" what I believe. I know that sounds arrogant, but this is what I live by. Many people can be wrong, and that is proven on the daily basis. But why, assuming your claim that verse 46 should not be grouped directly with verses 31 thru 45 was true, do you suppose you would be the only one that would see that truth? You don't think at least a few other people would also see it? I think that if we have any view that we can't find anyone else who agrees with us on, we need to reconsider what we believe about that particular issue. This has nothing to do with relying on men for understanding. It has to do with the idea that God would not likely only reveal the truth of a certain issue or doctrine to only one person.


They are given admission into the Kingdom of God on earth. They are not given eternal life. That difference is what I base my thinking on.Verse 46 says the righteous are given eternal life. The same righteous that are mentioned in verse 37, which are the sheep.

third hero
Jan 6th 2009, 10:06 PM
I want to know if I understand you correctly. Do you believe that when Jesus comes for His church (2nd advent) that all the non-believers around the world that aren't in the military at this specific battle will go on with life as usual except that they will have a new king and his followers with rods of iron to keep them in line?

Raybob

Not exactly. I believe that all of the survivors who are not at Armageddon will be brought to Jerusalem for judgment. It is there that those who aided the believers will have their lives spared while the ones who did not are hurled into the Lake. After this judgment, it is my belief that the Lord will require the survivors to visit Jerusalem yearly during the Feast of Tabernacles. All of the rules of Lord Jesus will be presented there and they will have to obey and honor Him. Then they are dispersed throughout the planet.

It is also my belief that there will not be many survivors who will go on to live during the Lord's reign on Earth.

John146
Jan 6th 2009, 10:07 PM
Questions:

1. Where are the dead?
2. Where are the books of life?
3. Why is there no mention of a resurrection?
4. Why is the scene on earth and not in Heaven?The resurrection takes place just prior. The parable of the wheat and tares (Matt 13:24-30,36-43) and the parable of the fishing net (Matt 13:47-50) indicate that all people are gathered at the same time. John 5:28-29 says that all the dead are resurrected at the same time. Does every passage that is related to the second coming and the judgment have to contain all the details related to the second coming and the judgment? Of course not. Sometimes we have to relate passages together to get all the details. Also, where does it say that this judgment is taking place on earth?

Also, we have verses that say believers will be resurrected on the last day (John 6:40, 54) as well as verses that say people will be judged for rejecting Christ on the last day (John 12:48). This places the resurrection and the judgment on the same day.

third hero
Jan 6th 2009, 10:13 PM
Questions:

1. Where are the dead?

The dead remain dead during the years of the Lord's reign on earth. (My belief is that the Lord will rule the entire world, even after Satan is released. He will rule until He gives this planet over to His Father for destruction). The dead do not come back to life until the earth and heaven are being destroyed by Father God


2. Where are the books of life?

It is absent from the Matthew 25:31-45 account. This shows me that the people are not given Eternal LIfe during this judgement. Therefore, the believers are not present in the judgment in Matthew 25:31-45.


3. Why is there no mention of a resurrection?

Because there is no resurrection in the Matthew 25:31-45 judgment. They are not dead.


4. Why is the scene on earth and not in Heaven?

Because this judgment is going to happen when the Lord takes over the world, after He destroys the armies of the world at Megiddo.

third hero
Jan 6th 2009, 10:37 PM
Where does Matthew 25:31-46 say anything about that?

The topic is about the survivors, and it is not limited to Matthew 25. We are discussing the survivors of the Second Coming. You wanted to use the "Break" portion of scripture to prove destruction at the Second Coming, while I used the "Break and Rule" portion to prove that there will be survivors.


No, He is going to judge all people based on how they treated the least of His brethren. Believers will pass with flying colors because we do help the least of these because we have the Spirit dwelling in us and leading us to do those things. Do you really think unbelievers would be rewarded for good works? Isn't it true that without faith it is impossible to please God? So, how could these people who don't have faith please God by their works?

Again, your opinion. You still insist on using "sheep" to determine your doctrine. It is your opinion, and I am not inclined to agree. I see the "sheep and goats" in Matthew in the way that it is written, as a simile. You have the right to disagree, but any further commenting on sheep and goats will only produce hard feelings and eventually infractions, neither of which is the reason why I started this thread. I want good conversations, even with people that do not agree with what I am saying. With that said, we are going to have to agree to disagree on our takes on Matthew 25:31-45, 46. You will believe as you will, I will believe as I will, and others can decide for theirselves whether they agree with you or me.


Are you trying to say that Matthew 25:31-45 doesn't mention the righteous?

33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

Not only are they called the righteous in verse 37 but they are called "blessed of my Father". That doesn't seem like something Jesus would say to unbelievers. How could unbelievers be blessed of the Father?

Were the OT people righteous?
Was Job righteous?
What makes a person righteous?
Is righteousness only limited to those who believe in Lord Jesus?

Even though Christ was not born before the Law was given at Sinai, the people who obeyed that were considered to be righteous. (Genesis 7:1; Exodus 23:7; 2 Samuel 4:11). Were they really?

If one person follows the Law, are they righteous?

What is righteousness?


You missed my point. I'm talking about things like what I showed above. You try to say the sheep are not believers and then I show you that they are also called the righteous and blessed of the Father. Even after showing you that, you still try to say they are not believers. How can it be possible that unbelievers would be called righteous and blessed of the Father? I just can't see it and I doubt anyone else but you sees it that way, either.

I did not miss your point. My point is that your point is not substantiated because of the point that the ones being judged are based on their treatment of the Believers. You want to make someone who is truly blessed by still living believers, and I am not inclined to agree with you. Just because you say I missed a point doesn't mean that I have missed it. I didn't.


No need to start with the condescending tone, Doug. I've never seen anyone suggest that there are no believers among the sheep before, so give me a chance to get used to this new idea. For a minute there, I had forgotten that you believed that none of the sheep are believers.

I wasn't being condescending. I do get a little touchy though when someone suggest that I do not believe in a certain thing just because others have not stated it before. I do not sway like the wind when it comes to scripture, no matter how much pressure there is to make me.


Good. Neither do I. But I'm not aware of any doctrines where only one person believes the right way while everyone else is wrong.

If what I have stated is not true, then disprove it. You are indeed trying, and I respect that. That is why I am not trying to hurl insults or anything else like that towards you.


But why, assuming your claim that verse 46 should not be grouped directly with verses 31 thru 45 was true, do you suppose you would be the only one that would see that truth? You don't think at least a few other people would also see it? I think that if we have any view that we can't find anyone else who agrees with us on, we need to reconsider what we believe about that particular issue. This has nothing to do with relying on men for understanding. It has to do with the idea that God would not likely only reveal the truth of a certain issue or doctrine to only one person.

Many believed that the Bible sustained the slave-master's belief in continuing the practice of buying and selling humans for slave. Many also believed that the Bible sustained the idea tht women are second-class citizens, with very little to no rights at all. Many still hold to the idea that a person who is dark skinned are Caananites, and thus are cursed. They all use the Bible to prove their rediculous claims. And all of them were, are and will still be wrong. I am not saying that you believe in any of these things. These are just examples of concepts that were widely accepted, but were completely false.


Verse 46 says the righteous are given eternal life. The same righteous that are mentioned in verse 37, which are the sheep.

What is righteous? According to the Bible, there are varying degrees of righteousness. One portion says that a person's actions are righteous, while Paul says that the righteous acts of men are as filthy rags to God. So what is righteous?

BroRog
Jan 7th 2009, 12:05 AM
Does every passage that is related to the second coming and the judgment have to contain all the details related to the second coming and the judgment? Of course not. Sometimes we have to relate passages together to get all the details.

The thing is, when a certain passage lack details that others have, it becomes harder to prove association, especially if one is forced to argue from silence.

Moreover, it would appear that Revelation 20 speaks of two judgments and a comparison between the details of each judgment with the Matthew 25 passage might reveal which judgment is in view. A comparison between Revelation 20:11-12 and Matthew 25 finds few similarities.


Also, where does it say that this judgment is taking place on earth?

Another good question. Other passages which speak about Jesus "coming" in his glory, seem to imply his movement from heaven to earth. I suppose I need to go back and look at these passages again.


Also, we have verses that say believers will be resurrected on the last day (John 6:40, 54) as well as verses that say people will be judged for rejecting Christ on the last day (John 12:48). This places the resurrection and the judgment on the same day.

Good point. The question is, does Matthew 25 describe the last day or some other day?

I also see the strong parallel with the wheat/tares parable and the fish sorting parable. Two groups of people are sorted out and enter their final destiny on the last day. This assumes, of course, that the Second Advent will be a very short time -- a day perhaps -- in which Jesus returns, does battle with the man of lawlessness, cleans up the mess, sits in judgment, destroys the earth, and returns to heaven with his saints etc.

Given that picture, I don't know what to do with passages such as Mark 10:28-30. This passage strongly implies that Peter will resurrect -- in this age, not the next age -- to enjoy the blessings of a house with children and farms and other material possessions.

Peter began to say to Him, "Behold, we have left everything and followed You." Jesus said, "Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or farms, for My sake and for the gospel's sake, but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life.

In order for Jesus statement to be true for Peter, the man asking the question, it looks like Peter will come back to life in order to enjoy children and farms, now, in the present age. If Peter is going to resurrect in the present age in order to enjoy the blessings of life on earth, then it would appear as if more happens in this age than a day of judgment and the second Advent.

Then we have this very cryptic verse, which is the last verse of Daniel 12.

13"But as for you, go your way to the end; then you will enter into rest and rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the age."

What is this "allotted portion"?

DIZZY
Jan 7th 2009, 07:09 AM
But, doesn't the idea of surviving believers from the Great Tribulation live as mortals in the Millennium contradict 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 and Zechariah 14:16-20?

According to 1 Thessalonians 4:15, the events in the next verses happen at the return of the Lord.

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

From there, Paul goes on to say:

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The fact that the term, "we which are alive and remain" brings the focus back to those in the previous verse. This says that at the return of the Lord, the dead in Christ will rise first, and then we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will rise up, and meet the Lord in the Air. From that moment on, we are forever with the Lord.

This "rapture" can not happen before the dead in CHrist rise first, and that cann not happen until the Lord returns, as verse 25 clearly tells us. When we meet the lord in the air, there wil no longer be any believers on the earth, because they will all be in the air.

Also, Zechariah 14:16 clearly states that those who are made to go up to Jerusalem to worship the Lord are "heathen", which are unbelieving people. These are not righteous, and they are not the "saints" that were "left behind". They are the heathen people who were not at Armageddon, who have had their lives prolonged for a little while (Daniel 7:12) who will have to go to Jerusalem yearly at the Feast of Tabernacles (Zechariah 14:16-20).

So, I have to disagree with you, because the scriptures show that the people of God wil be either raised from the dead, or in the air, gathered by the angels of God, to be with Christ forever.

Hi thirdhero,

Just two questions.
1. Who are the blessed of the Lord's Father?

I have not read once that heathen are blessed by the Father.

2. Who did God prepare the kingdom (being the earth) for?

Daniel 7:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=34&chapter=7&verse=18&version=50&context=verse)
But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom, and possess the kingdom forever, even forever and ever.’

Ok with them out of the way I want to take a look at
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Paul writes to the Thessalonians because they are concerned that the dead will miss Christs coming. They are told not to be concerned because when Christ comes He will bring those who sleep in Christ with him.

Christ brings their souls back with Him and their bodies will rise up to receive their souls and they will be changed at that moment.

We will not proceed before those who are asleep, Christ comes, they rise to receive their souls and we rise with them and receive our new bodies aswell and we shall be with the Lord always.

We find that all those saints who were raised at this rapture, return with Christ at His coming.

1 Thessalonians 3:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=59&chapter=3&verse=13&version=50&context=verse)
so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.

Revelation 19:11-16

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

The Lord's clothes were dipped in blood, but the armies in heaven that follow him were washed clean.

What were they washed clean with? The blood of the Lamb.

DurbanDude
Jan 7th 2009, 08:33 AM
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. Revelation 19:15

As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time. Daniel 7:12

And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom [is] an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. Daniel 7:27

Ask of me, and I shall give [thee] the heathen [for] thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth [for] thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. Psalm 2:8-9

And it shall come to pass, [that] every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. Zechariah 14:16

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Revelation 20:4

What do these verses tell me? They tell me that when the Lord comes, there will be those who will not be destroyed by Him, but rather are given their lives and are ruled by the Lord and His Saints.

I have read in here that some believe that there will be no survivors, which these verses refute. Others say that these survivors are people who have been left behind when the rapture happened before the Great Tribulation, which Revelation 7 refutes.

So who are these people? I say that they are the heathen nations that Jesus sets aside as sheep in Matthew 25:31-46. These are those who are required in Zechariah 14:16 to come to Jerusalem yearly to worship the King of Kings.

I guess that this is an invitation to everyone to do two things. Show your perspective and disprove all of the others. Hopefully, we can gain some clarity here.

The verses that you have quoted are so clear regarding the survival of nations after the second coming. These are heathen nations (nations that are not of true Israel- the unsaved) , that are ruled over.

My view is that at the second coming there is a complete and final separation of the two groups, the righteous and the unrighteous. These are the two groups of the sheep and the goats, as per Matthew 25. The believers receive their resurrected bodies and reign with Christ forever.

Matthew 25 I believe is showing the believers that we are supposed to be treated well and encouraging us that those who persecute us will get their judgement. The sheep are the true believers, who treat eachother well.

I believe the ungodly survivors are random. They are those who haven't been washed away by tsunamis, the mountains and hailstones didn't kill them, they survived the earthquake and they didn't participate in the battle in Armageddon, for all the soldiers in that valley will die.

I haven't got a verse to prove the randomness, I just believe there is no verses that show that the Lord will direct His wrath to any specific type of individuals. Maybe whole nations will receive His favour more than other nations and therefore certain regions will not be desolated on that day.

John146
Jan 7th 2009, 04:34 PM
What is righteous? According to the Bible, there are varying degrees of righteousness. One portion says that a person's actions are righteous, while Paul says that the righteous acts of men are as filthy rags to God. So what is righteous?In terms of Matthew 25:31-46, the righteous refer to believers because only believers would inherit eternal life in the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world.

John146
Jan 7th 2009, 04:45 PM
The thing is, when a certain passage lack details that others have, it becomes harder to prove association, especially if one is forced to argue from silence.

Moreover, it would appear that Revelation 20 speaks of two judgments and a comparison between the details of each judgment with the Matthew 25 passage might reveal which judgment is in view. A comparison between Revelation 20:11-12 and Matthew 25 finds few similarities.Why did you quote only Rev 20:11-12? You don't see similarities between the following verses?

Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Another good question. Other passages which speak about Jesus "coming" in his glory, seem to imply his movement from heaven to earth. I suppose I need to go back and look at these passages again.I think so, too.


Good point. The question is, does Matthew 25 describe the last day or some other day?It seems to me that only on the last day will people be cast into everlasting fire for everlasting punishment. I don't see how that can be describing anything but the same thing we see described in Rev 20:11-15.


I also see the strong parallel with the wheat/tares parable and the fish sorting parable. Two groups of people are sorted out and enter their final destiny on the last day. This assumes, of course, that the Second Advent will be a very short time -- a day perhaps -- in which Jesus returns, does battle with the man of lawlessness, cleans up the mess, sits in judgment, destroys the earth, and returns to heaven with his saints etc. I see no reason why those things can't happen in a short amount of time. We know the resurrection will take place in an instant (1 Cor 15:51-54).


Given that picture, I don't know what to do with passages such as Mark 10:28-30. This passage strongly implies that Peter will resurrect -- in this age, not the next age -- to enjoy the blessings of a house with children and farms and other material possessions.

Peter began to say to Him, "Behold, we have left everything and followed You." Jesus said, "Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or farms, for My sake and for the gospel's sake, but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life.

In order for Jesus statement to be true for Peter, the man asking the question, it looks like Peter will come back to life in order to enjoy children and farms, now, in the present age. If Peter is going to resurrect in the present age in order to enjoy the blessings of life on earth, then it would appear as if more happens in this age than a day of judgment and the second Advent.I don't see how you came to this conclusion. I believe it is saying that people would enjoy those things in this life along with persecutions. I believe when the resurrection occurs it ushers in the age to come, which is eternal.


Then we have this very cryptic verse, which is the last verse of Daniel 12.

13"But as for you, go your way to the end; then you will enter into rest and rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the age."

What is this "allotted portion"?All you have to do is read the beginning of Daniel 12 for your answer.

1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Just like in Mark 10:28-30 this passage shows that we will be resurrected to eternal life. That occurs at the end of this age and marks the beginning of the age to come, which, like I said before, is eternal. So, to answer your question, the allotted portion is deliverance unto everlasting life. We will have immortal bodies at that point (1 Cor 15:51-54).

BroRog
Jan 8th 2009, 05:11 AM
Why did you quote only Rev 20:11-12? You don't see similarities between the following verses?

Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Yes, admittedly the two are very similar.


It seems to me that only on the last day will people be cast into everlasting fire for everlasting punishment. I don't see how that can be describing anything but the same thing we see described in Rev 20:11-15.

I see no reason why those things can't happen in a short amount of time. We know the resurrection will take place in an instant (1 Cor 15:51-54).


Very true. Things can happen quite rapidly. Now, I suppose when Jesus returns in all his glory, he might want to get right down to sorting out the sheep and goats. But then, he might want to engage in a little warfare first, maybe followed by some hymns and some fellowship with a few of his favorite disciples. (Just kidding) But seriously, does the text require that Jesus get right down to it? I mean, wouldn't his statements mean the same thing if he decided to wait about a thousand years first? Just asking.


I don't see how you came to this conclusion. I believe it is saying that people would enjoy those things in this life along with persecutions. I believe when the resurrection occurs it ushers in the age to come, which is eternal.

But not just "people" in general. Jesus is making a promise to Peter himself isn't he? If it doesn't, then how is Jesus statement in Mark 10:29 answering Peter's exclamation in Mark 10:28? Why wasn't it enough for Jesus just to say, "But Peter, eternal life is 100 times better than what you are giving up in this age." That doesn't seem to be Jesus' point.

I mean, we all know that the eternal things are much, much better than the temporal things. And Jesus would be right to point that out to Peter. But Jesus not only highlights the eternal things, he promises 100 times the material things too.

Read Peter's statement in the same breath as Jesus' answer. They go together. "But Jesus we gave up all of our material goods to serve you. Okay, Peter not only are you going to get 100 times what you lost NOW, but in the age to come eternal life." What Peter gave up in this life, he will get 100 fold in this age. I don't know how to read that any other way than to picture Peter's return to this earth, in this age not the next, to receive his 100 fold increase.


All you have to do is read the beginning of Daniel 12 for your answer.

1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Just like in Mark 10:28-30 this passage shows that we will be resurrected to eternal life. That occurs at the end of this age and marks the beginning of the age to come, which, like I said before, is eternal. So, to answer your question, the allotted portion is deliverance unto everlasting life. We will have immortal bodies at that point (1 Cor 15:51-54).


Yes, but doesn't the phrase "allotted portion" speak about a land inheritance, i.e. the portion of land given to Daniel and his family? Inheritance of some portion of land is such a powerful and pervasive theme in the Bible. Not just that, the idea of Shalom, which is translated "peace" in the Bible is a deeper concept when used in the context of a man's wish to live in peace and prosperity in a quiet place free of war and loud with the laughter of children and grandchildren. It's such a very powerful human desire.

I don't know. Now I'm just ramblin. You could be right. I'm not saying your wrong. I'm just thinking aloud.

Raybob
Jan 8th 2009, 06:22 AM
Yes, admittedly the two are very similar.



Very true. Things can happen quite rapidly. Now, I suppose when Jesus returns in all his glory, he might want to get right down to sorting out the sheep and goats. But then, he might want to engage in a little warfare first, maybe followed by some hymns and some fellowship with a few of his favorite disciples. (Just kidding) But seriously, does the text require that Jesus get right down to it? I mean, wouldn't his statements mean the same thing if he decided to wait about a thousand years first? Just asking.

Not if you consider other scriptures of this event.
Joh 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, (29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.



Yes, but doesn't the phrase "allotted portion" speak about a land inheritance, i.e. the portion of land given to Daniel and his family? Inheritance of some portion of land is such a powerful and pervasive theme in the Bible. Not just that, the idea of Shalom, which is translated "peace" in the Bible is a deeper concept when used in the context of a man's wish to live in peace and prosperity in a quiet place free of war and loud with the laughter of children and grandchildren. It's such a very powerful human desire.


The KJV has "stand in thy lot", not "allotted portion".

Dan 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

The Hebrew word for the phrase "in thy lot" means figuratively a portion or destiny (as if determined by lot).

Raybob

BroRog
Jan 8th 2009, 02:35 PM
The Hebrew word for the phrase "in thy lot" means figuratively a portion or destiny (as if determined by lot).

Raybob

Yes. And how did a man come by his "portion" of land?

John146
Jan 8th 2009, 04:37 PM
Very true. Things can happen quite rapidly. Now, I suppose when Jesus returns in all his glory, he might want to get right down to sorting out the sheep and goats. But then, he might want to engage in a little warfare first, maybe followed by some hymns and some fellowship with a few of his favorite disciples. (Just kidding):D Or maybe not.


But seriously, does the text require that Jesus get right down to it? I mean, wouldn't his statements mean the same thing if he decided to wait about a thousand years first? Just asking.I don't personally think so. I don't see any reason why He wouldn't want to take care of business, so to speak, right then and there when He returns. And that's what the text seems to imply, IMO.


But not just "people" in general. Jesus is making a promise to Peter himself isn't he? If it doesn't, then how is Jesus statement in Mark 10:29 answering Peter's exclamation in Mark 10:28? Why wasn't it enough for Jesus just to say, "But Peter, eternal life is 100 times better than what you are giving up in this age." That doesn't seem to be Jesus' point.

I mean, we all know that the eternal things are much, much better than the temporal things. And Jesus would be right to point that out to Peter. But Jesus not only highlights the eternal things, he promises 100 times the material things too.

Read Peter's statement in the same breath as Jesus' answer. They go together. "But Jesus we gave up all of our material goods to serve you. Okay, Peter not only are you going to get 100 times what you lost NOW, but in the age to come eternal life." What Peter gave up in this life, he will get 100 fold in this age. I don't know how to read that any other way than to picture Peter's return to this earth, in this age not the next, to receive his 100 fold increase. I simply disagree. I know what you're saying makes sense to you, but it doesn't to me.


Yes, but doesn't the phrase "allotted portion" speak about a land inheritance, i.e. the portion of land given to Daniel and his family? No, I don't think so. Jesus was much more concerned with spiritual things than physical.


Inheritance of some portion of land is such a powerful and pervasive theme in the Bible. Not just that, the idea of Shalom, which is translated "peace" in the Bible is a deeper concept when used in the context of a man's wish to live in peace and prosperity in a quiet place free of war and loud with the laughter of children and grandchildren. It's such a very powerful human desire. Our perspectives are very different. I think you are putting way too much stock in material and earthly things and not nearly enough on spiritual and heavenly things. Why would we put so much hope in something that would be temporal?


I don't know. Now I'm just ramblin. You could be right. I'm not saying your wrong. I'm just thinking aloud.I appreciate that you have an open mind.

Raybob
Jan 8th 2009, 06:53 PM
Yes. And how did a man come by his "portion" of land?

His "portion or destiny" was mentioned in vs.1&2 of that chapter which doesn't speak of any land but "everlasting life".

Dan 12:1-2 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. (2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John146
Jan 8th 2009, 07:01 PM
His "portion or destiny" was mentioned in vs.1&2 of that chapter which doesn't speak of any land but "everlasting life".

Dan 12:1-2 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. (2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.Yeah, that's what I showed him already, but apparently to no avail? :dunno:

third hero
Jan 8th 2009, 07:18 PM
In terms of Matthew 25:31-46, the righteous refer to believers because only believers would inherit eternal life in the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world.

This is what I mean by the "Merry-go-round" that will result in this thread being shut down. You keep pushing the "verse 46 is part of the 31-45 passage" when I truly disagree. Again, it would be best to just agree to disagree, because from this point onward, you are not going to agree with what I believe, and I most sure will not accept what you are pushing.

third hero
Jan 8th 2009, 07:38 PM
Now, I will ask again. What does righteous mean? Just saying that "the Bible tells us that the righteous are the saints" is insufficient. From the Old Testament, there were many differing examples of righteous people and righteous people. Job was considered righteous, and there was no law, no sacrifice at Calvary, and no Christian walking the earth. Yet, Job, Abram, Jacob, David, and many others were called "righteous" in the OT. What made them righteous? Was it faith in the sacrifice of Lord Jesus, although it didn't happen during their lifetimes?

Noah was called righteous, and in fact, he was the "only one" considered to be righteous by God before He sentenced the world to death via water. And yet, because of who Noah was to God, He decided to spare Noah's sons and their wives. Why? For the sake of Noah. Were the sons of Noah righteous? Well, according to Genesis, Ham, in particular, was not.

Lot was considered to be "righteous", but was his wife and children righteous as well, or were they just blessed because of their relationship to Lot?

David was called, the man after God's own heart, and yet He committed adultery with Uriah's wife and then had Uriah killed. Yet, he is considered to be "righteous". How is that?

I ask all of this for one reason, to show that, like the "Sheep" reference that you are so hung-up on, righteous and righteousnes holds several definitions in scripture. There are varying degrees of righteousness, which Lord Jesus shows in Matthew 25. The first 30 verses deal with the judgment of the righteous, while verses 31-45 deal with the rest of mankind. The "righteous" among the first 30 verses are either made to be the bride of the Lord, or given posessions in the Master's Kingdom, along with eternal life. The "righteous" in verses 37-40 were those who are spared, like Lot's family and NOah's, for their treatment of the righteous saints. Their reward is not what it is for the others. They are given admission to God's kingdom on earth. There are degrees of righteousness, and I am only bringing light to that concept.

Again, I expect the "I disagree because all of the righteous are given eternal life" response. So let's just agree to disagree here. We are not going to agree, and I know that the reason is truly the difference between the Amil version of events that will happen at the point of the Lord's return and the Premil's. YOu think, "heaven and earth passes away" at His return when I believe that the Lord will remove the wicked and establish His Kingdom here on earth, fulfilling myriads of previously unfulfilled prophecies, including the one where the "Heathen" will have to go to Jerusalem yearly to worship the Lord of Lords during th Feast of Tabernacles.

John146
Jan 8th 2009, 10:22 PM
Now, I will ask again. What does righteous mean? Just saying that "the Bible tells us that the righteous are the saints" is insufficient. From the Old Testament, there were many differing examples of righteous people and righteous people. Job was considered righteous, and there was no law, no sacrifice at Calvary, and no Christian walking the earth. Yet, Job, Abram, Jacob, David, and many others were called "righteous" in the OT. What made them righteous? Was it faith in the sacrifice of Lord Jesus, although it didn't happen during their lifetimes?

Noah was called righteous, and in fact, he was the "only one" considered to be righteous by God before He sentenced the world to death via water. And yet, because of who Noah was to God, He decided to spare Noah's sons and their wives. Why? For the sake of Noah. Were the sons of Noah righteous? Well, according to Genesis, Ham, in particular, was not.

Lot was considered to be "righteous", but was his wife and children righteous as well, or were they just blessed because of their relationship to Lot? At least you are now acknowledging that Lot was considered righteous. I believe his children were righteous as well, but his wife was not because she was still too attached to the world which is why she looked back.


David was called, the man after God's own heart, and yet He committed adultery with Uriah's wife and then had Uriah killed. Yet, he is considered to be "righteous". How is that?He still had faith. Believers make mistakes and still sin. But he was sorry for it and asked for forgiveness. He still had faith. His faith was counted to him for righteousness just like Abraham.

Romans 4
1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness


I ask all of this for one reason, to show that, like the "Sheep" reference that you are so hung-up on, righteous and righteousnes holds several definitions in scripture. There are varying degrees of righteousness, which Lord Jesus shows in Matthew 25. The first 30 verses deal with the judgment of the righteous, while verses 31-45 deal with the rest of mankind. The "righteous" among the first 30 verses are either made to be the bride of the Lord, or given posessions in the Master's Kingdom, along with eternal life. The "righteous" in verses 37-40 were those who are spared, like Lot's family and NOah's, for their treatment of the righteous saints. Their reward is not what it is for the others. They are given admission to God's kingdom on earth. There are degrees of righteousness, and I am only bringing light to that concept.How can these mortal unbelievers be given admission to God's kingdom on earth at that time in light of what it says here:

1 Cor 15:50-54
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Paul says that mortal flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God and implies that it will be inherited at the time when we are changed at the last trumpet, which we both agree occurs at the second coming of Christ. But you say that mortal flesh and blood can inherit the kingdom of God. Paul is teaching that one cannot inherit the kingdom without putting on incorruption and immortality. It seems to me that you are contradicting what Paul teaches in the passage above.

Benaiah
Jan 9th 2009, 05:25 AM
Now, I will ask again. What does righteous mean?

Righteousness = Right standing with God.

The Righteousness that leads to salvation is the same in the OT and the NT. it is the righteousness that comes by faith.

if the heathen had faith they would not be heathen.

third hero
Jan 9th 2009, 05:00 PM
Hi thirdhero,

Just two questions.
1. Who are the blessed of the Lord's Father?

I have not read once that heathen are blessed by the Father.

2. Who did God prepare the kingdom (being the earth) for?

Daniel 7:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=34&chapter=7&verse=18&version=50&context=verse)
But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom, and possess the kingdom forever, even forever and ever.’

Who are the saints suppose to rule over? Other saints?

Now to answer your questions.

If I am a heathen, and I am given permission to live in a "utopia" state of the earth, will I be blessed of the Father? Those Gentiles who believe in Lord Jesus, are they "Blessed of the Father"? You forget, you were not always a Christian, and neither was I. We were heathens at some point in our lives, and yet, we were "Blessed of Our Father", who showed us Lord Jesus and gave us the ability to believe.

Moreover, I have shown that Jesus is to be given the Heathen as His inheritance, and that He and the saints will rule over the heathen, and that the heathen nations who are left will have to go to Jerusalem yearly to worship Him there, or else have no rain. These things I have proven with scripture. (Psalm 2, Daniel 7, Zechariah 14). If these heathen who are permitted to be ruled by Christ during the Kingdom of God on Earth period (which is a new term that I have just started that more accurately describes the Earth from the point of Lord Jesus's return until the end of the world), then wouldn't they be considered blessed of the Father, even as the rest are hurled into the Lake? Even if there are no other examples of the Lord calling the heathen, "Blessed of the Father" in the OT, it is implied.


Ok with them out of the way I want to take a look at
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Paul writes to the Thessalonians because they are concerned that the dead will miss Christs coming. They are told not to be concerned because when Christ comes He will bring those who sleep in Christ with him.

Christ brings their souls back with Him and their bodies will rise up to receive their souls and they will be changed at that moment.

We will not proceed before those who are asleep, Christ comes, they rise to receive their souls and we rise with them and receive our new bodies aswell and we shall be with the Lord always.

We find that all those saints who were raised at this rapture, return with Christ at His coming.

Paul does not solely deal with the "dead in Christ" in this passage. There are a couple of things that have been illuminated that goes along with the "rapture" shown here.

1. The Dead in Christ shall rise
2. the word "then" is used
3. We who are "alive and remain til the coming of the Lord" (Verse 15) will arise and meet with the Lord in the Air.

Even though I agree that Paul is dealing with those who have died inthe Lord, that is not the only group that He is dealing with. He tells us that at the time of His return, the dead in Christ come with Him, and we will meet them in the air. He gives us the second detailed description of the moment of the unification of the saints and the Lord, one that backs up what Lord Jesus said during the Olivet discourse, (Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21). The first thing that happens when the Lord comes is that the Dead in Christ receive their immortal bodies and we who remain on the earth will be transformed, and meet the Lord in the Air.

You see, scripture must be unified in this issue, in my opinion. I believe that there is continuity between the OT and the NT, and I also believe that there is continuity between the Gospels and Paul's writings. Lord Jesus tells us in Matthew 25 (the parable of the ten virgins) that the ones labeled follish miss out on the Marriage of the Lamb because they were not prepared when He returned. This tells me that there can only be one time when the Lord will come to get His Elect. Jesus also states in Matthew 24 that He will return to collect His elect AFTER the Tribulation that He describes in the verses before verse 29. Because Lord Jesus is our Savior, every single word in scripture MUST line up with His words, or else we shall have contradictions. And so, it is my opinion that 2 Thessalonians, all of that book, must line up with Lord Jesus's words in the Gospels. Chapter 4 verse 15 shows me that they do.

Why do I say all of this? It is so that you can know that the saints will not be ruled by Lord Jesus at His return. They will be immortalized, and incorruptible when He returns, for the saints that are alive and remain til His coming will be His elect that he will gather to Himself in the Air at HIs return.


1 Thessalonians 3:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=59&chapter=3&verse=13&version=50&context=verse)
so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.

Revelation 19:11-16

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

The Lord's clothes were dipped in blood, but the armies in heaven that follow him were washed clean.

What were they washed clean with? The blood of the Lamb.

Are they being ruled by Him as mortals, or are they immortalized at the point of Revelation 19? It is my opinion that they are immortals, and can not be ruled by Christ in the manner that the Heathen are to be ruled, (Revelation 19:15, Zechariah 14:16-18). So the saints that come out of the Great Tribulation can not be mortal, as Revelation 7 tells us, they will be wearing white robes, the same as the robes of the dead in Christ who were crying out from under the Altar of God in chapter 6. They are not mortal, but immortal. So the survivors hae to be the heathen, for they and the wicked are all that are left when the Lord goes to judge those who remain on the earth after His initial coming. We know that the wicked are destroyed, as Revelation 19 makes very clear. But what about the heathen? What about those who did not know God, but just went with whatever everyone else was doing? What happens to them? Matthew 25:31-45 answers that question.

DIZZY
Jan 10th 2009, 12:29 AM
Who are the saints suppose to rule over? Other saints?

Now to answer your questions.

If I am a heathen, and I am given permission to live in a "utopia" state of the earth, will I be blessed of the Father? Those Gentiles who believe in Lord Jesus, are they "Blessed of the Father"? You forget, you were not always a Christian, and neither was I. We were heathens at some point in our lives, and yet, we were "Blessed of Our Father", who showed us Lord Jesus and gave us the ability to believe.

Moreover, I have shown that Jesus is to be given the Heathen as His inheritance, and that He and the saints will rule over the heathen, and that the heathen nations who are left will have to go to Jerusalem yearly to worship Him there, or else have no rain. These things I have proven with scripture. (Psalm 2, Daniel 7, Zechariah 14). If these heathen who are permitted to be ruled by Christ during the Kingdom of God on Earth period (which is a new term that I have just started that more accurately describes the Earth from the point of Lord Jesus's return until the end of the world), then wouldn't they be considered blessed of the Father, even as the rest are hurled into the Lake? Even if there are no other examples of the Lord calling the heathen, "Blessed of the Father" in the OT, it is implied.



Paul does not solely deal with the "dead in Christ" in this passage. There are a couple of things that have been illuminated that goes along with the "rapture" shown here.

1. The Dead in Christ shall rise
2. the word "then" is used
3. We who are "alive and remain til the coming of the Lord" (Verse 15) will arise and meet with the Lord in the Air.

Even though I agree that Paul is dealing with those who have died inthe Lord, that is not the only group that He is dealing with. He tells us that at the time of His return, the dead in Christ come with Him, and we will meet them in the air. He gives us the second detailed description of the moment of the unification of the saints and the Lord, one that backs up what Lord Jesus said during the Olivet discourse, (Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21). The first thing that happens when the Lord comes is that the Dead in Christ receive their immortal bodies and we who remain on the earth will be transformed, and meet the Lord in the Air.

You see, scripture must be unified in this issue, in my opinion. I believe that there is continuity between the OT and the NT, and I also believe that there is continuity between the Gospels and Paul's writings. Lord Jesus tells us in Matthew 25 (the parable of the ten virgins) that the ones labeled follish miss out on the Marriage of the Lamb because they were not prepared when He returned. This tells me that there can only be one time when the Lord will come to get His Elect. Jesus also states in Matthew 24 that He will return to collect His elect AFTER the Tribulation that He describes in the verses before verse 29. Because Lord Jesus is our Savior, every single word in scripture MUST line up with His words, or else we shall have contradictions. And so, it is my opinion that 2 Thessalonians, all of that book, must line up with Lord Jesus's words in the Gospels. Chapter 4 verse 15 shows me that they do.

Why do I say all of this? It is so that you can know that the saints will not be ruled by Lord Jesus at His return. They will be immortalized, and incorruptible when He returns, for the saints that are alive and remain til His coming will be His elect that he will gather to Himself in the Air at HIs return.



Are they being ruled by Him as mortals, or are they immortalized at the point of Revelation 19? It is my opinion that they are immortals, and can not be ruled by Christ in the manner that the Heathen are to be ruled, (Revelation 19:15, Zechariah 14:16-18). So the saints that come out of the Great Tribulation can not be mortal, as Revelation 7 tells us, they will be wearing white robes, the same as the robes of the dead in Christ who were crying out from under the Altar of God in chapter 6. They are not mortal, but immortal. So the survivors hae to be the heathen, for they and the wicked are all that are left when the Lord goes to judge those who remain on the earth after His initial coming. We know that the wicked are destroyed, as Revelation 19 makes very clear. But what about the heathen? What about those who did not know God, but just went with whatever everyone else was doing? What happens to them? Matthew 25:31-45 answers that question.


Hi thirdhero,

You are right the saints that have gone before the millennial kingdom rule over saints in the kingdom.

As a heathen you will have no such choice of living in a place of utopia, as you have put it. So I have to answer No, you will not be blessed of the Father. Those Gentiles who believe during the Millennial Kingdom will be blessed of the Father, for if they survive they will go into the land of utopia (millennial Kigdom).

The only time a none Chr.istian is blessed by the Father is at the point of belief as you say beyond that point we were condemned.

John 3:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=3&verse=18&version=50&context=verse)
“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

You can not escape the judgment of God if you do not believe in the one He sent. Judgment comes on the whole world not just a small portion of it.

1 Corinthians 11:32 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=11&verse=32&version=50&context=verse)
But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

Revelation 3:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=3&verse=10&version=50&context=verse)
Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

God showed us His grace and gave us faith to believe in His Son, it is only the belief in His Son that saves us from condemnation and eternal destruction, so one needs to believe and repent to be saved and receive God's promise of the land.

The bible tell us that the rest of the world does not repent and they curse God for their pain.


Revelation 9:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=9&verse=20&version=50&context=verse)
But the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and idols of gold, silver, brass, stone, and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk.
Revelation 9:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=9&verse=21&version=50&context=verse)
And they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts.
Revelation 16:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=16&verse=9&version=50&context=verse)
And men were scorched with great heat, and they blasphemed the name of God who has power over these plagues; and they did not repent and give Him glory.
Revelation 16:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=16&verse=11&version=50&context=verse)
They blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and did not repent of their deeds.
The heathen are cursed, they are not and never will be blessed of the father not now not ever.

Abraham once asked God if He would destroy the righteous with the wicked.

Genesis 18:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=18&verse=23&version=50&context=verse)
And Abraham came near and said, “Would You also destroy the righteous with the wicked?

Why would God destroy the world with a flood and kill all the wicked that walked upon the earth and save only one man Noah and his family. The only reason Noah's family and Lot's families survived was because of The righteousness of Noah and Lot.

Was Noah and Lot any different to the rest of the world? No they were sinners. So why did God find them righteous before Him? Because they believed in God and had faith in God, it is their faith in God that made them righteous before God.

Why was Rahab saved, because she knew the God of Israel and she protected God's servants the spies when they were in the land of the enemy.

A person only receives the promises of God at the point of belief and at that point they are no longer a heathen they are children of God.

I want to look at the verse you have quoted that the heathen shall be given as a n inheritance to the Lord. We just can't pluck what we want from the word of God and say this means this you need to finish the verses.

Psalm 2:7-9
7 “I will declare the decree:
The LORD has said to Me,
‘You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.
8 Ask of Me, and I will give You
The nations for Your inheritance,
And the ends of the earth for Your possession.
9 You shall break them with a rod of iron;
You shall dash them to pieces like a potter’s vessel."

Yes the heathen are given to the Lord as an inheritance, but what does He do with that inheritance. It doesn't say He rules over them with an iron rod, it says he will break them to pieces like a potters clay.

A potter if he is not happy with what he has created he breaks it and throws it away in the bin never to be seen again. That is what the Lord will do to the heathen hHe has inherited. He will crush them and cast them into outer darkness.

Ephesians 5:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=5&verse=5&version=50&context=verse)
For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.



1. The Dead in Christ shall rise
2. the word "then" is used
3. We who are "alive and remain til the coming of the Lord" (Verse 15) will arise and meet with the Lord in the Air.


Your right the dead do rise first then as they are rising upto meet the Lord we who are alive we join them in the air. This is the rapture not the second coming of the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 3:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=59&chapter=3&verse=13&version=50&context=verse)
so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.

When the Lord returns He brings all the saints with him the Old Testament saints the raptured saints and the tribulation saints and these saints will reign with Him over the surviving believers from the nations.

We need to get beyond the human thinking point, if the whole world can see the Lord's return then doesn't it mean the whole world (every heathen nation) will gather against Him and His army.

Revelation 1:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=1&verse=7&version=50&context=verse)
Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

Why will these tribes mourn? Because they did not repent of their sins and they have realized that what has been preached to them all those years was true. They could see now that their eternal destination is hell.

There is only the wicked and the righteous. The heathen are the wicked. There is only two sides the side of the wicked or the side of the righteous there are no inbetweens. You are either with the Lord or against the Lord.

Revelation 1:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=1&verse=7&version=50&context=verse)
Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

As Christians we know there is no excuse for anyone, they can not say they did not know God. I can not believe this question of what about those who did not know God has even come up.

Romans 1:18-25
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

God has left no excuse for any one for even creation itself speaks of God. It is mans hard heart that doesn't want to believe.

Zechariah 14 agrees with Matthew 25 all those who are left of the nations after the Lord has destroyed the wicked will go into the millennial kingdom and they will hang onto the sleeve of a jew and ask them to take them up to their God.

Zechariah 8:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=45&chapter=8&verse=23&version=50&context=verse)
“Thus says the LORD of hosts: ‘In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.”’”

As you said we know all the wicked are destroyed at the Lord's return Revelation 19 makes that clear.

Who are the heathen they are the wicked for God sent his desciples among the heathen to preach the Gospel message so they might be saved also.

Galatians 1:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=1&verse=16&version=9&context=verse)
To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

It is the Jewish saints and surviving Tribulation saints who inherit the Millennial Kingdom.

third hero
Jan 10th 2009, 10:21 AM
Dizzy.
Consider Rahab. She was a prostitute, right? Is that righteous? What did she do that made her "righteous"? She aided the Israelites. Although she was morally bankrupt and a heathen to boot, God saw it fit to spare her and her family when Jericho was destroyed. Why? Because she aided His chosen spies.

Did Rahab know God? I say no. Here is why.
And she said unto the men, I know that the LORD hath given you the land, and that your terror is fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land faint because of you. Joshua 2:9

She says that she knows that God has given the spies their land, and she knows that the fear of their lord has infected the inhabitants there. However, she does not say that she knows God. She didn't. All she knew that she needed to aid the ones whose God was going to destroy her city. Take a look at her request when she decides to aid them.

Now therefore, I pray you, swear unto me by the LORD, since I have shewed you kindness, that ye will also shew kindness unto my father's house, and give me a true token: And [that] ye will save alive my father, and my mother, and my brethren, and my sisters, and all that they have, and deliver our lives from death. verses 12-13

She asks that when they come to destroy the city, that her and her family's lives be spared. God turned around and honored that request, although she was a prostitute, and a heathen. Although she believed that the God of the Israelites was the God of heaven, that does not mean that she believed that He is the only true God. So, she could have still been classified as a heathen, and yet, she ws blessed of the Father, as her entire family was spared when Jericho was destroyed.

If God could do that then, why can't he do that same thing to those who, although they themselves were sinners just like Rahab, aided the Believers during the worst period of human suffering ever, aka the Great Tribulation? The Logic is sound. What I proport in Matthew 25:31-45 is not a new concept, but rather a concept that God has done in the past, in rare situations. Rahab was not born of the lineage of Abraham, and yet, she was blessed by the Father with her life and admission into the Kingdom of Israel, the Kingdom that God was setting up on earth using the descendents of Jacob.

If a prostitute can be hailed as righteous for aiding God's people back then, then those "heathen" who aid God's chosen people, the Believers, can be called righteous when He judges them in the future.

Benaiah
Jan 11th 2009, 02:28 AM
Consider Rahab. She was a prostitute, right? Is that righteous? What did she do that made her "righteous"? She aided the Israelites. Although she was morally bankrupt and a heathen to boot, God saw it fit to spare her and her family when Jericho was destroyed. Why? Because she aided His chosen spies.

Did Rahab know God? I say no. Here is why.
And she said unto the men, I know that the LORD hath given you the land, and that your terror is fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land faint because of you. Joshua 2:9

Hebrews tell us that Rahab acted in FAITH. And because of that she did not perish with those who did NOT believe.

Heb 11:31 By faith the harlot Rahab did not perish with those who did not believe, when she had received the spies with peace.

John146
Jan 12th 2009, 03:16 PM
Dizzy.
Consider Rahab. She was a prostitute, right? Is that righteous? What did she do that made her "righteous"? She aided the Israelites. Although she was morally bankrupt and a heathen to boot, God saw it fit to spare her and her family when Jericho was destroyed. Why? Because she aided His chosen spies.

Did Rahab know God? I say no. Here is why.
And she said unto the men, I know that the LORD hath given you the land, and that your terror is fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land faint because of you. Joshua 2:9

She says that she knows that God has given the spies their land, and she knows that the fear of their lord has infected the inhabitants there. However, she does not say that she knows God. She didn't. All she knew that she needed to aid the ones whose God was going to destroy her city. Take a look at her request when she decides to aid them.

Now therefore, I pray you, swear unto me by the LORD, since I have shewed you kindness, that ye will also shew kindness unto my father's house, and give me a true token: And [that] ye will save alive my father, and my mother, and my brethren, and my sisters, and all that they have, and deliver our lives from death. verses 12-13

She asks that when they come to destroy the city, that her and her family's lives be spared. God turned around and honored that request, although she was a prostitute, and a heathen. Although she believed that the God of the Israelites was the God of heaven, that does not mean that she believed that He is the only true God. So, she could have still been classified as a heathen, and yet, she ws blessed of the Father, as her entire family was spared when Jericho was destroyed.

If God could do that then, why can't he do that same thing to those who, although they themselves were sinners just like Rahab, aided the Believers during the worst period of human suffering ever, aka the Great Tribulation? The Logic is sound. What I proport in Matthew 25:31-45 is not a new concept, but rather a concept that God has done in the past, in rare situations. Rahab was not born of the lineage of Abraham, and yet, she was blessed by the Father with her life and admission into the Kingdom of Israel, the Kingdom that God was setting up on earth using the descendents of Jacob.

If a prostitute can be hailed as righteous for aiding God's people back then, then those "heathen" who aid God's chosen people, the Believers, can be called righteous when He judges them in the future.Not long ago, you tried to say that Lot was not righteous and then I showed you a passage that said otherwise. Now, you are trying to say that Rahab did not know God. But scripture indicates otherwise. She was a true believer. Do you really think it would say that she was justified if she wasn't a true believer and didn't know God?

Heb 11:31 By faith the harlot Rahab did not perish with those who did not believe, when she had received the spies with peace.

James 2
24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Rahab was justified by her faith and works. Her works reflected her faith. Unbelievers or heathen are never called righteous in scripture and are never including among those who are justified.

DIZZY
Jan 12th 2009, 10:42 PM
Hi John146 I agree with the word of God and what you have said Rahab was a believer and that is the reason she was saved, but not only her, those of her family that were in her house with her at the time jericho fell was saved also because of Rahab's righteousness.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 12th 2009, 11:14 PM
He showed you a problem with your understanding of Matthew 25:31-46. Can you please specifically address it? You see the sheep as being heathen, do you not? How could the heathen be called "the righteous" as they are called in verse 37 (and 46)? Only believers could be called "the righteous" and only believers could inherit eternal life in the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world.

I think the question is who will be ruled with an iron rod.

As for the righteous sheep in Matthew 25:

Mat 10:40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
Mat 10:41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.
Mat 10:42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 12th 2009, 11:26 PM
How could a heathen nation be referred to as sheep? Doesn't that go completely against everything Christ preached?

Luk 11:23 He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.

Raybob

Mark 9:36 And taking a child, He stood him in their midst. And taking him in His arms, He said to them,
Mark 9:37 whoever receives one of these little children in My name receives Me; and whoever receives Me, receives not Me, but Him who sent Me."
Mark 9:38 Now John answered Him, saying, "Teacher, we saw someone who does not follow with us casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow with us."
Mark 9:39 But Jesus said, "Do not forbid him, for there is no one who will perform a miracle in My name that will be able to soon speak evil of Me.
Mark 9:40 For he who is not against you is for you.

Mark 9:41 For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink in My name, because you are Christ's, assuredly, I say to you, he will by no means lose his reward.

DIZZY
Jan 13th 2009, 01:58 AM
Hi thirdhero,

I think we need to look at Romans 4.

Romans 4
Abraham Justified by Faith

1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
David Celebrates the Same Truth


5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 “ Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”
Abraham Justified Before Circumcision


9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.
The Promise Granted Through Faith


13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.” 19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.

Even though each one of these people were sinners it was their faith in the promises of God that made them righteous. It was their faith and works together that made them righteous before God. Even though Christ had not been crucified at that time they still had faith that God would deliver them from their sin and that was imputed as righteousness.


Genesis 6:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=6&verse=9&version=31&context=verse)
This is the account of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God.
Genesis 7:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=7&verse=1&version=31&context=verse)
The LORD then said to Noah, "Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation.
Genesis 18:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=18&verse=23&version=31&context=verse)
Then Abraham approached him and said: "Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked?
Genesis 18:24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=18&verse=24&version=31&context=verse)
What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it?

Genesis 18:25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=18&verse=25&version=31&context=verse)
Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?"
Genesis 18:26 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=18&verse=26&version=31&context=verse)
The LORD said, "If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake."
Genesis 18:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=18&verse=28&version=31&context=verse)
what if the number of the righteous is five less than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city because of five people?" "If I find forty-five there," he said, "I will not destroy it."
Genesis 38:26 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=38&verse=26&version=31&context=verse)
Judah recognized them and said, "She is more righteous than I, since I wouldn't give her to my son Shelah." And he did not sleep with her again.
Exodus 23:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=2&chapter=23&verse=8&version=31&context=verse)
"Do not accept a bribe, for a bribe blinds those who see and twists the words of the righteous.
Numbers 23:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=4&chapter=23&verse=10&version=31&context=verse)
Who can count the dust of Jacob or number the fourth part of Israel? Let me die the death of the righteous, and may my end be like theirs!"
Deuteronomy 4:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=5&chapter=4&verse=8&version=31&context=verse)
And what other nation is so great as to have such righteous decrees and laws as this body of laws I am setting before you today?
Deuteronomy 16:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=5&chapter=16&verse=19&version=31&context=verse)
Do not pervert justice or show partiality. Do not accept a bribe, for a bribe blinds the eyes of the wise and twists the words of the righteous.
Deuteronomy 24:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=5&chapter=24&verse=13&version=31&context=verse)
Return his cloak to him by sunset so that he may sleep in it. Then he will thank you, and it will be regarded as a righteous act in the sight of the LORD your God.
Deuteronomy 33:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=5&chapter=33&verse=21&version=31&context=verse)
He chose the best land for himself; the leader's portion was kept for him. When the heads of the people assembled, he carried out the LORD's righteous will, and his judgments concerning Israel."
Judges 5:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=7&chapter=5&verse=11&version=31&context=verse)
the voice of the singers at the watering places. They recite the righteous acts of the LORD, the righteous acts of his warriors in Israel. "Then the people of the LORD went down to the city gates.
1 Samuel 12:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=9&chapter=12&verse=7&version=31&context=verse)
Now then, stand here, because I am going to confront you with evidence before the LORD as to all the righteous acts performed by the LORD for you and your fathers.
1 Samuel 24:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=9&chapter=24&verse=17&version=31&context=verse)
"You are more righteous than I," he said. "You have treated me well, but I have treated you badly.
Ezra 9:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=15&chapter=9&verse=15&version=31&context=verse)
O LORD, God of Israel, you are righteous! We are left this day as a remnant. Here we are before you in our guilt, though because of it not one of us can stand in your presence."

Nehemiah 9:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=16&chapter=9&verse=8&version=31&context=verse)
You found his heart faithful to you, and you made a covenant with him to give to his descendants the land of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Jebusites and Girga****es. You have kept your promise because you are righteous.
Job 4:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=22&chapter=4&verse=17&version=31&context=verse)
'Can a mortal be more righteous than God? Can a man be more pure than his Maker?
Job 9:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=22&chapter=9&verse=2&version=31&context=verse)
"Indeed, I know that this is true. But how can a mortal be righteous before God?
Job 12:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=22&chapter=12&verse=4&version=31&context=verse)
"I have become a laughingstock to my friends, though I called upon God and he answered— a mere laughingstock, though righteous and blameless!

Job 15:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=22&chapter=15&verse=14&version=31&context=verse)
"What is man, that he could be pure, or one born of woman, that he could be righteous?
Job 17:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=22&chapter=17&verse=9&version=31&context=verse)
Nevertheless, the righteous will hold to their ways, and those with clean hands will grow stronger.
Job 22:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=22&chapter=22&verse=3&version=31&context=verse)
What pleasure would it give the Almighty if you were righteous? What would he gain if your ways were blameless?

Job 22:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=22&chapter=22&verse=19&version=31&context=verse)
"The righteous see their ruin and rejoice; the innocent mock them, saying,
Job 25:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=22&chapter=25&verse=4&version=31&context=verse)
How then can a man be righteous before God? How can one born of woman be pure?

DIZZY
Jan 13th 2009, 01:59 AM
The bible shows us in many verses that everyone born of woman is unrighteous. Not one of us is righteous in the eyes of God, even our deeds are like filthy rags before God.


Isaiah 64:
6 But we are all like an unclean thing,
And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags;
We all fade as a leaf,
And our iniquities, like the wind,
Have taken us away.

The thing is you are stuck on what righteous means by human standeds and not God veiw of righteous means.

1 Corinthians 1:29-31
29so that no one may boast before him. 30It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."

You are saying these heathens are made righteous because they helped the Lords people this is a false teaching. Then it becomes a works salvation.

Galatians 2:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=2&verse=21&version=31&context=verse)
I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"

Galatians 3:10,11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=3&verse=11&version=31&context=verse)
10All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."11Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."

Those who are saved out of the nations are in fact righteous saints and they inherit the earth not heathens who helped the saints escape the beast and his persecutions. God does not save because of righteous deeds.

Titus 3:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=63&chapter=3&verse=5&version=31&context=verse)
he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

So as you see by the word of God, it is not by works alone that one becomes righteous, it is by faith and works.

James 2:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=66&chapter=2&verse=18&version=50&context=verse)
But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

Ephesians 2:7-9
7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

There is only one truth and that is the word of God and the word of God says that the wicked will be destroyed. It does not say if the wicked help my people I will allow them to be saved.

Come up with more verses that say the wicked will be spared then we could debate it further.

Matthew 25:31-46
31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’ 37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’ 44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Every single person on this earth will be gathered before the Lord, He will seperate the sheep (righteous) from the goats (wicked). The righteous sheep, those who believed God and put their faith in God and His beloved Son will go into the Kingdom. Those who rejected the Lord and followed Satan will be cast into eternal punishment.

The bible tells us that those who go through the tribulation will have to receive the mark of the beast to be able to buy or sell anything.

Revelation 13:15-17
15 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. 16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, 17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Those who you say help the Lord's people would they for arguments sake have the mark so that they can give food to the Lord's people?

If they don't take the mark they will suffer the same penalty as the rigtheous and they will die of starvation and die in their sins if they don't repent.

If they do take the mark and help the righteous they will still die in their sins when the Lord returns.

Revelation 14:8-10
8 And another angel followed, saying, “Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.” 9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

There is no partiality with God the unrighteous will be judged according to the law or no law.

Romans 2:10-12
10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God. 12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law.

So everyone who is left of the nations are righteous saints and they will go up and worship the Lord. The Lord will rule them with an iron rod and punish those who do not come up and worship Him.

During this Millennial kingdom reign (on this present earth not the new earth) children are born to those in the kingdom, Satan is let lose and he deceives many people in these nations and they turn against the Lord.

They will go up against the camp of the saints to battle against the Lord. Not everyone will be deceived by Satan but quite a few will be.

Revelation 20:7:10
7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

After Satan and all his cohorts are in the eternal lake of fire being punished, God creats a new heaven and a new earth.

Matthew 24:35 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&verse=35&version=50&context=verse)
Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

2 Peter 3:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=68&chapter=3&verse=10&version=50&context=verse)
[ The Day of the Lord ] But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

Revelation 21:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=21&verse=1&version=50&context=verse)
[ All Things Made New ] Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.

I don't know how you can get pass this verse where it says the first heaven and the first earth had passed away.

God creates a new heaven and a new earth he does not restore or rejuvenate the old earth. God makes all things new.

Revelation 21:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=21&verse=5&version=50&context=verse)
Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”

third hero
Jan 13th 2009, 05:21 AM
Not long ago, you tried to say that Lot was not righteous and then I showed you a passage that said otherwise. Now, you are trying to say that Rahab did not know God. But scripture indicates otherwise. She was a true believer. Do you really think it would say that she was justified if she wasn't a true believer and didn't know God?

Heb 11:31 By faith the harlot Rahab did not perish with those who did not believe, when she had received the spies with peace.

I believe that this is a misnomer. She did not believe in God and repent of her sins, the Christian definition of knowing God. She was still a prostitute. She believed that the God of the spies that entered into Jericho was going to destroy her city. She took a chance by asking the spies to spare her house and her family when they destroy Jericho. She did not believe in the God of Israel, she was scared like everyone else in that city. She did not "suddenly" have faith in the God of Israel and repent of her prostitution. Instead, she believed that the God of the spies that entered her city was capable of destroying their city, and she wanted to find a way to escape the fate of her countrymen. She knew of God, but she did not know Him. She knew what He was going to doto her city, but she did not know Him.

This reminds me of the parable of the shrewd manager in Luke 16. The manager's owner told him that he is going to lose his job. The manager, hoping that when the inevitable happens, he would be able to find mercy in those who he had aided by slashing their debts. The Lord called this manager wise (Luke 16:8). Why? Because he hedged his bets with those who could help him once he had lost his job.

In the same manner, Rahab, as well as Jericho, was subject to destruction. No one was to survive. Just like the shrewd manager, Rahab hedged her bets by siding with the side that was going to win. And so, when she had the opportunity, she made a deal to save her neck. You call that righteousness, I call that survival.

Despite what I call it, this bolsters my case that the ones being judged in Matthew 25:31-45 would fall into the same category as Rahab, being that they are judged on their treatment of the Believers during the Great Tribulation. These are not believers, that they would be caught up in the air with the rest of the believers and inherit eternal life. Those that aid the believers are called righteous (Matthew 25:37), while those who did not are called wicked (verse 45). Like Rahab, those who aid the believers are spared their lives and are blessed by the Father to live in the earth ruled by Lord Jesus, instead of the extinction that the rest of the world will experience.

And so, no matter what manner of sinnner a person is, as long as they have an inkling of faith towards God in the least, even if it is by aiding those who are true believers, they are classified as righteous. Since both Rahab and Lot were both considered righteous even though they broke several of the Lord's comandments, (Lot with incest and Rahab wit prostitution). If this is so, then guess what? This furthers my premise that the "nations" that aided the Believers in Matthew 25::31-45 fits the discription of "righteous" even though they, like Rahab, did not believe in the words of God. Out of fear, just like Rahab, they decided, even after siding with the enemy, to aid the believers to survive the Great Period of Human Suffering Ever, aka the Great Tribulation.

And yes, I still stand on my premise that Lot was NOT righteous, not by Christian standards. His family was the only one not participating in the sins of Sodom and the cities of Zoar. Because of this, not because Lot was righteous, God spared him and his family, with a condition that his wife could not obey, and was terminated with the rest of Sodom.


James 2
24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Rahab was justified by her faith and works. Her works reflected her faith. Unbelievers or heathen are never called righteous in scripture and are never including among those who are justified.

According to the Christian standard of belief, righteousness comes by means of faith, and that faith bringing about repentence. Nowhere in scripture does it show Rahab as repenting of sins that she committed. Yet, she is hailed as being righteous by faith. How? She was in the truest sense, a heathen only trying to save her neck. Yet, you call her righteous because of one simple act. How then can you on the one hand say, "no heathen can be called righteous", and then show one example of the exact opposite? Rahab was not a convert of Judaism before Jericho fell. She was only saving her own life by giving aid to the ones that actually believed. Her reward, for aiding the Israelite spies, was her life being spard when everyone else was killed.

I am saying that Matthew 25:31-45 gives the exact same situation as Rahab in Jericho. The Great Tribulation is the full-fledge rebellion against God by the entire world. Those who are faithful to God will be snuffed out and beheaded, as scriptures state. According to the scriptures, those who side with the Beast will be hurled into the Lake, just like the inhabitants of Jericho were to be executed, with no survivors. Yet, when this time comes, there will be some who will think, "hey, the Lord of the Believers may end up having mercy on me if I help them, even though I am subject to death and the Lake". What will happen to them, those who believe that the God of the Christians will show mercy to those who have aided His people when they were in distress? Matthew 25:31-45 answers that qustion. They are forgiven their sins, just like Rahab was forgiven her sins, and they will be designated as righteous, just like Rahab. It is these people who will populate the earth, and will be ruled by Lord Jesus during the time of God's rule on Earth. The rest will be sent into the Lake, just as scripture dictates.

third hero
Jan 13th 2009, 05:23 AM
:thumbsup:
I think the question is who will be ruled with an iron rod.

As for the righteous sheep in Matthew 25:

Mat 10:40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
Mat 10:41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.
Mat 10:42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

Partaker of Christ,
You deserve the gold star. You have shown exactly what I have been trying to say. :thumbsup:

third hero
Jan 13th 2009, 05:36 AM
Dizzy,
I understand where you are coming from. you believe that the saints who endure through the Great Tribulation, aka those who miss the rapture that happens before the "tribulation" period will be the ones who are the "sheep" in Matthew 25:31-45. You do not believe that the Lord is going to gather His elect "immediately after the tribulation of those days" (Matthew 24:29), and thus the only "rapture" that will happen is the one that happens before the advent of the Beast. Fundamentally, we are not going to see eye to eye on this issue, because you do nto believe that the tribulation saints will be "godly" enoguh for Lord Jesus to gather and collect when He returns, even though Matthew 24:29-31, 1 Thessalonians 4:15, and Revelation 7:9-17 (especially verse 14), and Revelation 20:4-6 tells a different story.

So, before we can even delve into the topic of survivors, we have to bring to clarity the timing of the "rapture", which is a subject that I want to leave to another thread at another time. Your conclusion of Matthew 25:31-45 and Zechariah 14:16-18 is based on your beliefs just as my beliefs are based on the same premise. Unlike you, I do not believe that the rapture or gathering, or meeting of the saints in midair will happen at any point before the Great Tribulation. My beliefs are based on the belief that leans heavily on Matthew 24:29-31, when all of the saints who survive the Great Tribulation will meet the Lord in the Air, during His return.

Raybob
Jan 13th 2009, 07:53 AM
...According to the Christian standard of belief, righteousness comes by means of faith, and that faith bringing about repentence. Nowhere in scripture does it show Rahab as repenting of sins that she committed....

Heb 11:31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

Jas 2:25-26 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? (26) For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


Raybob

Raybob
Jan 13th 2009, 08:02 AM
... Your conclusion of Matthew 25:31-45 and Zechariah 14:16-18 is based on your beliefs just as my beliefs are based on the same premise. Unlike you, I do not believe that the rapture or gathering, or meeting of the saints in midair will happen at any point before the Great Tribulation. ...

The bible seems to go along with Dizzy's beliefs.

1Th 4:17-5:4 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.


Mat 24:33-36 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. (34) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. (35) Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. (36) But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Raybob

DIZZY
Jan 13th 2009, 09:20 AM
Dizzy,
I understand where you are coming from.


Hi third hero,
i am affraid you do not know at all where I am coming from.



you believe that the saints who endure through the Great Tribulation, aka those who miss the rapture that happens before the "tribulation" period will be the ones who are the "sheep" in Matthew 25:31-45.


You are quite wrong with this. I believe all the church saints are raptured, there are no church saints left during the tribulation period.

I surpose you are asking now, well how are people saved then, if there are no saints during the tribulation period.

Well there's the 144,000 who have been sealed by God and witness to the lost. You probably say ah you are wrong there. But wait there's more.

Who do you believe the bible is talking about here, remember the church saints are gone and we know the 144,000 were sealed in Rev 7.

Revelation 9:3-5
3 Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4 They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months. Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man.

The scorpions were only allowed to harm those who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. So those who had the seal in their foreheads must be the 144,000, who are preaching to the lost.

But wait there's more. During that time you will have the two witnesses preaching to the lost and angels flying about the earth preaching the gospel message and warning of what will happen to those who take the mark of the beast.



You do not believe that the Lord is going to gather His elect "immediately after the tribulation of those days" (Matthew 24:29), and thus the only "rapture" that will happen is the one that happens before the advent of the Beast.


You are way off my friend. I believe the Lord gathers His elect after the tribulation. He gathers those from heaven (the raptured,martyred tribulation saints and Old Testament saints) and those from the nations on earth who are still alive all are His elect.

He gives the saints that are alive the kingdom for 1000yrs, they will stay in their mortal bodies and the raptured saints, martyred Tribulation saints and Old Testament saints will reign with Christ over these saints.



Fundamentally, we are not going to see eye to eye on this issue, because you do nto believe that the tribulation saints will be "godly" enoguh for Lord Jesus to gather and collect when He returns, even though Matthew 24:29-31, 1 Thessalonians 4:15, and Revelation 7:9-17 (especially verse 14), and Revelation 20:4-6 tells a different story.


Once again you are wrong. I believe the tribulation saints are the ones who go into the millennial kingdom in their mortal bodies because evryone else on the earth have been destroyed by the sword that proceedes out of the mouth of the Lord.

Revelation 19
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”
19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.



So, before we can even delve into the topic of survivors, we have to bring to clarity the timing of the "rapture", which is a subject that I want to leave to another thread at another time. Your conclusion of Matthew 25:31-45 and Zechariah 14:16-18 is based on your beliefs just as my beliefs are based on the same premise. Unlike you, I do not believe that the rapture or gathering, or meeting of the saints in midair will happen at any point before the Great Tribulation. My beliefs are based on the belief that leans heavily on Matthew 24:29-31, when all of the saints who survive the Great Tribulation will meet the Lord in the Air, during His return.

Once again you are wrong. I believe Matthew 24:29-31, Zechariah 14:16-18 and Matthew 25:31-46 are speaking of the same thing, how could they not be.

I believe the Lord deals with His church before the tribulation period starts. But as you said the rapture can be descused at another time and thread.


1 Corinthians 15:52 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=15&verse=52&version=50&context=verse)
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=59&chapter=4&verse=16&version=50&context=verse)
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

I do not believe these verses fit in with Matthew. They speak of the rapture.

So you should never presume to know what a person believes.

DIZZY
Jan 13th 2009, 09:49 AM
So tell me who are the nations that the Lord crushes if it is not the heathen?

Psalm 2:8-10
8 Ask of Me, and I will give You
The nations for Your inheritance,
And the ends of the earth for Your possession.
9 You shall break them with a rod of iron;
You shall dash them to pieces like a potter’s vessel.’”

10 Now therefore, be wise, O kings;
Be instructed, you judges of the earth.

John146
Jan 13th 2009, 03:26 PM
I believe that this is a misnomer. She did not believe in God and repent of her sins, the Christian definition of knowing God. She was still a prostitute. She believed that the God of the spies that entered into Jericho was going to destroy her city. She took a chance by asking the spies to spare her house and her family when they destroy Jericho. She did not believe in the God of Israel, she was scared like everyone else in that city. She did not "suddenly" have faith in the God of Israel and repent of her prostitution. Instead, she believed that the God of the spies that entered her city was capable of destroying their city, and she wanted to find a way to escape the fate of her countrymen. She knew of God, but she did not know Him. She knew what He was going to doto her city, but she did not know Him.

This reminds me of the parable of the shrewd manager in Luke 16. The manager's owner told him that he is going to lose his job. The manager, hoping that when the inevitable happens, he would be able to find mercy in those who he had aided by slashing their debts. The Lord called this manager wise (Luke 16:8). Why? Because he hedged his bets with those who could help him once he had lost his job.

In the same manner, Rahab, as well as Jericho, was subject to destruction. No one was to survive. Just like the shrewd manager, Rahab hedged her bets by siding with the side that was going to win. And so, when she had the opportunity, she made a deal to save her neck. You call that righteousness, I call that survival.

Despite what I call it, this bolsters my case that the ones being judged in Matthew 25:31-45 would fall into the same category as Rahab, being that they are judged on their treatment of the Believers during the Great Tribulation. These are not believers, that they would be caught up in the air with the rest of the believers and inherit eternal life. Those that aid the believers are called righteous (Matthew 25:37), while those who did not are called wicked (verse 45). Like Rahab, those who aid the believers are spared their lives and are blessed by the Father to live in the earth ruled by Lord Jesus, instead of the extinction that the rest of the world will experience.

And so, no matter what manner of sinnner a person is, as long as they have an inkling of faith towards God in the least, even if it is by aiding those who are true believers, they are classified as righteous. Since both Rahab and Lot were both considered righteous even though they broke several of the Lord's comandments, (Lot with incest and Rahab wit prostitution). If this is so, then guess what? This furthers my premise that the "nations" that aided the Believers in Matthew 25::31-45 fits the discription of "righteous" even though they, like Rahab, did not believe in the words of God. Out of fear, just like Rahab, they decided, even after siding with the enemy, to aid the believers to survive the Great Period of Human Suffering Ever, aka the Great Tribulation. I'm not buying any of that. Where is the scripture that says Rahab was only trying to save her neck and wasn't really a believer? Scripture simply never calls unbelievers righteous. It says in James 2 that Rahab was justified. Is it possible for an unbeliever to be justified? I don't believe so.

James 2
24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

One is justified by faith and works. Unbelievers don't have faith so how could they be justified? I believe you are way off base on this.


And yes, I still stand on my premise that Lot was NOT righteous, not by Christian standards.How about by scriptural standards? Do you disagree with the following passage?

2 Peter 2
4For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 5And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
7And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
8(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)

He is called just in verse 7 and then righteous not once but twice in verse 8. And, yet, you still want to try to say he was not righteous by Christian standards? That's unbelievable to me.


His family was the only one not participating in the sins of Sodom and the cities of Zoar. Because of this, not because Lot was righteous, God spared him and his family, with a condition that his wife could not obey, and was terminated with the rest of Sodom. I believe you are contradicting what the passage I quoted above says about Lot.


According to the Christian standard of belief, righteousness comes by means of faith, and that faith bringing about repentence. Nowhere in scripture does it show Rahab as repenting of sins that she committed.Nowhere does it show that she didn't repent, either.


Yet, she is hailed as being righteous by faith. How? She was in the truest sense, a heathen only trying to save her neck.Where is your evidence for this? Less opinion and more scripture, please.


Yet, you call her righteous because of one simple act.No, scripture calls her righteous. Scripture says she was justified. Only believers can be justified.


How then can you on the one hand say, "no heathen can be called righteous", and then show one example of the exact opposite? Rahab was not a convert of Judaism before Jericho fell. She was only saving her own life by giving aid to the ones that actually believed. Her reward, for aiding the Israelite spies, was her life being spard when everyone else was killed.Let me quote Hebrews 11:31 one more time.

31By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

Scripture says Rahab had faith. Do you question whether any of the other people listed in Hebrews 11 were believers? It lists Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthae, David, Samuel...and Rahab. Looks to me like God sees Rahab no differently than those other people because of her faith. James 2 specifically mentions Abraham...and Rahab as being justified by their faith which was reflected in their works.


I am saying that Matthew 25:31-45 gives the exact same situation as Rahab in Jericho. The Great Tribulation is the full-fledge rebellion against God by the entire world. Those who are faithful to God will be snuffed out and beheaded, as scriptures state. According to the scriptures, those who side with the Beast will be hurled into the Lake, just like the inhabitants of Jericho were to be executed, with no survivors. Yet, when this time comes, there will be some who will think, "hey, the Lord of the Believers may end up having mercy on me if I help them, even though I am subject to death and the Lake". What will happen to them, those who believe that the God of the Christians will show mercy to those who have aided His people when they were in distress? Matthew 25:31-45 answers that qustion. They are forgiven their sins, just like Rahab was forgiven her sins, and they will be designated as righteous, just like Rahab. It is these people who will populate the earth, and will be ruled by Lord Jesus during the time of God's rule on Earth. The rest will be sent into the Lake, just as scripture dictates.If all that was true, I wonder why Jesus wouldn't have mentioned any of that?

John146
Jan 13th 2009, 03:40 PM
I think the question is who will be ruled with an iron rod.

As for the righteous sheep in Matthew 25:

Mat 10:40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
Mat 10:41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.
Mat 10:42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.What point are you trying to make here exactly? The sheep are believers and will inherit eternal life (Matt 25:46) in the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world (Matt 25:34). The goats are unbelievers who are cast into everlasting fire (Matt 25:41) for everlasting punishment (Matt 25:46). Since believers will have immortal bodies at Christ's return, this doesn't leave any mortals to populate an earthly millennial kingdom.

third hero
Jan 13th 2009, 07:10 PM
Hi third hero,
You are quite wrong with this. I believe all the church saints are raptured, there are no church saints left during the tribulation period.

IF there are no more saints during the Tribulation Period, then tell me, who is John talking about when he wrote this:

And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. Revelation 13:7

If there are no more sqaints on the earth, who are the saints then that are being attacked and defeated by the Beast, who will be the ruler of the earth during the Great Tribulation? the 144,000? I am not wrong. I am spot on accurate with what I have said concerning your basis for belief.


I surpose you are asking now, well how are people saved then, if there are no saints during the tribulation period.

Well there's the 144,000 who have been sealed by God and witness to the lost. You probably say ah you are wrong there. But wait there's more.

Who do you believe the bible is talking about here, remember the church saints are gone and we know the 144,000 were sealed in Rev 7.

Revelation 9:3-5
3 Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4 They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months. Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man.

The scorpions were only allowed to harm those who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. So those who had the seal in their foreheads must be the 144,000, who are preaching to the lost.


A couple of problems here.

1. The sixth seal mentions nothing opf Lord Jesus gathering the believers.
2. The saints who are mentioned in chapter 7 are "those who have come out of Great Tribulation" (Revelation 7:14)
3. The only time that the 144,000 is mentioned is in chapter 7 when they are sealed, and chapter 14 when they are found with Lord Jesus in Jerusalem. Their purpose is never mentioned, other than the fact that they appear wit Lord Jesus at Sion, and that they are redeemed from the earth. You idea that they are proclaiming the Gospel is something that you added on, but not only you, but all of the pre-trib camp.

Show me a verse that shows the 144,000 proclaiming the Gospel to the lost and I'll change my mind.


But wait there's more. During that time you will have the two witnesses preaching to the lost and angels flying about the earth preaching the gospel message and warning of what will happen to those who take the mark of the beast.

So, let me get this straight. You say I am wrong for saying that you get your POV from the pre-tribber guide to the end times, and then play a page from that book to prove me wrong?


You are way off my friend. I believe the Lord gathers His elect after the tribulation. He gathers those from heaven (the raptured,martyred tribulation saints and Old Testament saints) and those from the nations on earth who are still alive all are His elect.

Reconcile this to Revelation 20:4, which says that th only ones who are resurrected are those who are beheaded during the Great Tribulation, and verse 6 which states that no one else is resurrected until after the 1000 year imprisonment of Satan is complete.


He gives the saints that are alive the kingdom for 1000yrs, they will stay in their mortal bodies and the raptured saints, martyred Tribulation saints and Old Testament saints will reign with Christ over these saints.

Reconcile this to 1 Corinthians 15:51 that expressly tells us that at the Gathering, we will all be changed, and will gain incorruptible bodies. Those who are gathered will become immortal.


Once again you are wrong. I believe the tribulation saints are the ones who go into the millennial kingdom in their mortal bodies because evryone else on the earth have been destroyed by the sword that proceedes out of the mouth of the Lord.

No, I am not wrong, because you do nto take into account verse 15, where the place where the things that happen from verse 17 onward happens "in the winepress of God's wrath", which is the place where all of the kings and armies of the world are gathered by Satan (Revelation 14:17-20; 16:13-14), which is identified as Armageddon, (Revelation 16:16). The rest of the world had to survive their cities being leveled and huge hailstones smashing the lot of them. It does not say that the world is destroyed then, but rather, God focuses His attention on Babylon (Revelation 16:17-20).



Once again you are wrong. I believe Matthew 24:29-31, Zechariah 14:16-18 and Matthew 25:31-46 are speaking of the same thing, how could they not be.

Really? So the heathen are the ones who are gathered and meet the Lord in the air, are the same who are being forced to go to Jerusalem after the Lord takes over the world, and are judged based on their treatment of "His Brethern" (verse 40)? Frankly, I disagree, and for many reasons, most of which I have already brought up in this thread.


I believe the Lord deals with His church before the tribulation period starts. But as you said the rapture can be descused at another time and thread.


1 Corinthians 15:52 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=15&verse=52&version=50&context=verse)
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=59&chapter=4&verse=16&version=50&context=verse)
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
I do not believe these verses fit in with Matthew. They speak of the rapture.

So you should never presume to know what a person believes.

So which one is it? Is the church raptured before the Great Tribulation, as you allude to here, or after it, as you have said earlier in your post here. This is part of the reason why I do not prescribe to the pre-trib model, because it just doesn't make sense to me. Things that seem to be contradictory to what the Bible actually says are linked together into a doctrine.

According to you:

1. The Tribulation saints are to remain mortals, when chapter 7 tells us that they receive white robes, the same robes that the dead in Christ under the Altar of God receive, and 1 Corinthians 15 tells us that at once, all of us will be changed into incorruptible bodies, (makeing us immortal), and 1 thessalonians 4:15 tells us that te meeting will take place at the time of the Lord's coming.

2. the church is dealt with before the great Tribulation and are gathered agazin afterward, something that no scripture in the Bible even alludes to.

3. And all of the heathen are destroyed whe nthe Lord returns when many scriptures from both the Old Testament and the New Testament tell us otherwise, including Pslam 2 and Zechariah 14:16-18.

And you say I am wrong.....:o

David Taylor
Jan 13th 2009, 07:52 PM
Thread has gotten too personal and is getting more insulting towards one another; it has earned a ripe old retirement.