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Partaker of Christ
Dec 30th 2008, 01:20 AM
http://www.biblestudy.org/maps/the-world-as-known-to-the-hebrews-large-map.html

I don't know how many may have seen this map, but if you look close you can see in the area of Ararat; Meshech, Gog and Magog. Also, Gomer, Tubal (Thubal), Togarmah of the north quarters.


Eze 38:1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Eze 38:2 Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,
Eze 38:3 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
Eze 38:4 And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:
Eze 38:5 Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:
Eze 38:6 Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.
Eze 38:7 Be thou prepared, and prepare for thyself, thou, and all thy company that are assembled unto thee, and be thou a guard unto them.

If Togarmah, is of the north quarters, then I think that would/could/should eliminate it being Russia.
I know many say that the people of Russia are traced from Rosh and Meshech etc, but this prophecy speaks 'from the land of' not the people of.

In Jeremiah 50:

Jer 50:8 Remove out of the midst of Babylon, and go forth out of the land of the Chaldeans, and be as the he goats before the flocks.
Jer 50:9 For, lo, I will raise and cause to come up against Babylon an assembly of great nations from the north country: and they shall set themselves in array against her; from thence she shall be taken: their arrows shall be as of a mighty expert man; none shall return in vain.
Jer 50:10 And Chaldea shall be a spoil: all that spoil her shall be satisfied, saith the LORD.

Jer 51:27 Set ye up a standard in the land, blow the trumpet among the nations, prepare the nations against her, call together against her the kingdoms of Ararat, Minni, and Ashchenaz; appoint a captain against her; cause the horses to come up as the rough caterpillers.
Jer 51:28 Prepare against her the nations with the kings of the Medes, the captains thereof, and all the rulers thereof, and all the land of his dominion.
Jer 51:29 And the land shall tremble and sorrow: for every purpose of the LORD shall be performed against Babylon, to make the land of Babylon a desolation without an inhabitant.


Jer 51:45 My people, go ye out of the midst of her, and deliver ye every man his soul from the fierce anger of the LORD.
Jer 51:46 And lest your heart faint, and ye fear for the rumour that shall be heard in the land; a rumour shall both come one year, and after that in another year shall come a rumour, and violence in the land, ruler against ruler.
Jer 51:47 Therefore, behold, the days come, that I will do judgment upon the graven images of Babylon: and her whole land shall be confounded, and all her slain shall fall in the midst of her.

third hero
Dec 30th 2008, 02:00 AM
Great post! You ticked off Hal Lindsay, but that's okay. All he has to do is read some of my material and he'll be totally ticked off.

this confirms what I have been saying about Gog and Magog. Gog is an archangel who has sided with Satan. Gog is the spirit of the Antichrist. Magog is the land in which is under the influence of Gog, the spirit of the AntiChrist. This does give us a good look into the countries that mat end up making the original Magog Alliance, as written in Ezekiel 38. And you're right. It does eliminate Russia as one of the nations as a whole. However, some of Russia's land fits into the area where Gomer and Magog used to be.

Partaker of Christ
Dec 30th 2008, 02:58 PM
Great post! You ticked off Hal Lindsay, but that's okay. All he has to do is read some of my material and he'll be totally ticked off.

this confirms what I have been saying about Gog and Magog. Gog is an archangel who has sided with Satan. Gog is the spirit of the Antichrist. Magog is the land in which is under the influence of Gog, the spirit of the AntiChrist. This does give us a good look into the countries that mat end up making the original Magog Alliance, as written in Ezekiel 38. And you're right. It does eliminate Russia as one of the nations as a whole. However, some of Russia's land fits into the area where Gomer and Magog used to be.

Thanks Third Hero!
Still trying to get my head around this.

I wonder if that is why the USSR was broken up?

My thoughts are Armenia (think this is Minni, Ararat) and predominately Turkey (Japheth)

mfowler12
Dec 30th 2008, 04:10 PM
Great post! You ticked off Hal Lindsay, but that's okay. All he has to do is read some of my material and he'll be totally ticked off.

this confirms what I have been saying about Gog and Magog. Gog is an archangel who has sided with Satan. Gog is the spirit of the Antichrist. Magog is the land in which is under the influence of Gog, the spirit of the AntiChrist. This does give us a good look into the countries that mat end up making the original Magog Alliance, as written in Ezekiel 38. And you're right. It does eliminate Russia as one of the nations as a whole. However, some of Russia's land fits into the area where Gomer and Magog used to be.
How does the map confirm that Gog is an angel that has sided with Lucifer?

third hero
Dec 31st 2008, 08:13 AM
How does the map confirm that Gog is an angel that has sided with Lucifer?
You see, Magog in Ezekiel 38, encompassed Meshech, and Tubal. These regions are not connected, as Tubal is actually an area close to Mongolia. Also, the regions that are mentioned along with Meshech and Tubal are scattered around Israel. Although Magog is actually a small area, the alliance is quite large, with Gog being the prince over all of them.

As we know, Magog never had an empire of her own, and the nations that represent that alliance was never alligned with the small country of Magog. This leads me to believe that there is more to the story than what meets the eye.

So, I looked up the usage of the term, "Chief prince" in the OT. That term was used for one other figure, Michael, the "Chief prince" of Israel. This is where I come to the conclusion that Gog is not a prince, meaning a human, but a chief prince, like Michael the chief prince of ISrael. IN conclusion, Gog has to be an archangel, a spirit like Michael.

NOw, the alliance mentioned in Ezekiel 38 are destroyed in chapter 39. God buries them in the land that will be called Hamon-gog. Figuring that the situation in Ezekiel is parrotted in Revelation 19, I came to the conclusion that Magog has to be the name of the entire alliance, which will be under Gog, who would be defeated at the Valley of Megiddo.

In short, I made the connection between the Beast in Revelation 19 and Gog in Ezekiel 38-39. This map, in my opinion, confirms the vital piece of information that sustains my theory, the fact that Magog is more than just the area of Meshech and Tubal. IF one would see all of the countries that are part of the Magog alliance, the land space would eclipse the actual land of Magog.

markedward
Dec 31st 2008, 07:45 PM
Gog is an archangelScripture, please, to confirm this.


Gog is the spirit of the Antichrist.And this.

Otherwise, you're making completely unsupported claims. In that case, I recommend changing the "is" to "could be"... "Gog could be an archangel, and he could be the spirit of the Antichrist".


IN conclusion, Gog has to be an archangel, a spirit like Michael.I find the reasoning you used here to be very faulty. You're appealing to the usage of the term "chief prince" as "proof" that Gog is an archangel. I think this logic is off-base for two reasons...

First, the terms are used in two different books; there's no guarantee that the authors used the phrase in the same manner. Just because Ezekiel and Daniel each say "chief prince" doesn't mean they were both referring to archangels, or even that the term in and of itself means "archangel" to begin with. If you're using same-phrasing as "proof" that Gog is an archangel just because both Gog and Michael are called as such, then we must conclude that Nebuchadnezzar is Jesus since Daniel calls Neb "king of kings" (Daniel 2:37) and John calls Jesus "king of kings" (Revelation 19:16). Or we must conclude that there are many Sons of God since Genesis described many of them, since King David is called a son of God, since Jesus claimed that we (Christians) are sons of God, since Paul claimed that we (Christians) are the sons of God, and since Jesus is called the Son of God. Or we must conclude that Ezekiel was Jesus since he is called "son of man" repeatedly, which is a messianic title applied to Jesus. Or we recognize that "king of kings" is used in a different context between Nebuchadnezzar and Jesus, that "son of God" is used in a different context between everyone else and Jesus, that "son of man" is used in a different context between everyone else and Jesus, and that, just as much, "chief prince" is used in a different context between Gog and Michael.

Second, it isn't even the same Hebrew words between Ezekiel's "chief prince" and Daniel's "chief prince". Ezekiel calls Gog roshe nasiy. Daniel calls Michael rishon sar. If you're going to count inconsistent phrasing, you might as well include a man from 2 Chronicles 11:22, who is called "chief prince", or roshe nagiyd. But since you're disregarding the inconsistent word usage, would you be inclined to claim that Abijah son of Maacah is an archangel because he is called a "chief prince"? Doubtful, which just goes further for us to question why Gog should be identified as an archangel simply because he is called a "chief prince" (leading me back to my previous point; like-terms doesn't mean like-nature: meaning, just because two or more individuals share a similar title or label doesn't mean they're the same type of person or even the same type of being).

quiet dove
Dec 31st 2008, 08:09 PM
Scripture, please, to confirm this.

And this.

Otherwise, you're making completely unsupported claims. In that case, I recommend changing the "is" to "could be"... "Gog could be an archangel, and he could be the spirit of the Antichrist".

But wasn't the comparison in that there was an angel, Michael, said to be the prince over Israel?

Edit: misread your post mark, (duh smiley here)

third hero
Dec 31st 2008, 09:01 PM
Scripture, please, to confirm this.

And this.

Otherwise, you're making completely unsupported claims. In that case, I recommend changing the "is" to "could be"... "Gog could be an archangel, and he could be the spirit of the Antichrist".

I find the reasoning you used here to be very faulty. You're appealing to the usage of the term "chief prince" as "proof" that Gog is an archangel. I think this logic is off-base for two reasons...

In my mind, the map actually confirms what I have thought in the first place. I wrote this prose knowing that many people would not agree with it, because there is no concrete example of Gog being the Spirit of the AnitChrist. I made a word association, and that word/phrase is "chief prince", the phrase that appears around Michael as well as Gog.


First, the terms are used in two different books; there's no guarantee that the authors used the phrase in the same manner. Just because Ezekiel and Daniel each say "chief prince" doesn't mean they were both referring to archangels, or even that the term in and of itself means "archangel" to begin with. If you're using same-phrasing as "proof" that Gog is an archangel just because both Gog and Michael are called as such, then we must conclude that Nebuchadnezzar is Jesus since Daniel calls Neb "king of kings" (Daniel 2:37) and John calls Jesus "king of kings" (Revelation 19:16). Or we must conclude that there are many Sons of God since Genesis described many of them, since King David is called a son of God, since Jesus claimed that we (Christians) are sons of God, since Paul claimed that we (Christians) are the sons of God, and since Jesus is called the Son of God. Or we must conclude that Ezekiel was Jesus since he is called "son of man" repeatedly, which is a messianic title applied to Jesus. Or we recognize that "king of kings" is used in a different context between Nebuchadnezzar and Jesus, that "son of God" is used in a different context between everyone else and Jesus, that "son of man" is used in a different context between everyone else and Jesus, and that, just as much, "chief prince" is used in a different context between Gog and Michael.
Second, it isn't even the same Hebrew words between Ezekiel's "chief prince" and Daniel's "chief prince". Ezekiel calls Gog roshe nasiy. Daniel calls Michael rishon sar. If you're going to count inconsistent phrasing, you might as well include a man from 2 Chronicles 11:22, who is called "chief prince", or roshe nagiyd. But since you're disregarding the inconsistent word usage, would you be inclined to claim that Abijah son of Maacah is an archangel because he is called a "chief prince"? Doubtful, which just goes further for us to question why Gog should be identified as an archangel simply because he is called a "chief prince" (leading me back to my previous point; like-terms doesn't mean like-nature: meaning, just because two or more individuals share a similar title or label doesn't mean they're the same type of person or even the same type of being).

[/quote]

The point of the matter is that when making theories, like the Gog theory, one has to take into account historical refernces and writings. The term, "King of Kings", was used widespread around antiquity, and many ancient texts from other cultures used that term to describe their king. If I was to ignore this fact, then I would fall into that trap of saying that everyone with the monicker, "King of Kings", is a son of God. We know that is not the case. Therefore, the term, King of Kings, has to be examined on a case by case basis.

IN the case of Gog, there is not a single surviving reference to anyone named Gog outside of the Bible. We find the term Gog used in two places.

1. The table of nations. Gog was a man who founded the nation of Magog before Israel became a nation

2. IN Ezekiel 38-39

Now, either Gog is over 3600 years old, being that the man who founded Magog would have to live from the point of the creation of Magog to the last days when Gog is buried, or Gog must have another meaning. We know that the original Gog is dead, and has been for a very long time. And so, either another man has to be named Gog who would be the "Chief Prince" of Magog, or Gog has to represent something else. Hence the focus on the term, "chief prince". We find that phrase in one other instance, when Gabriel talks of the angel that aided him in getting his message to Daniel, and he called him, "the chief Prince of Israel". Now, we know that Michael is an angel, for Gabriel mentioned that, but Gog has that same title, as "Chief prince of Magog". Using all of this information, I feel as though it is enough to make the statement that Gog is an archangel.

If this is true, then Gog has to be a spirit, rather than a man. When we see Gog in Ezekiel, we see that he is the main force that fights against Israel, and the God of Israel. According to chapter 39, Gog is issued a graveyard, and all of the co-conspirator nations that sided with Gog are buried right along with him. But we see Gog again in Revelation 20, and it is evident that the Magog that is written there is not the one that is limited to a certain area of land, for as Revelation 20:8 show us, the scope of Magog spans the entire world, and that includes all of the nations that will have sided with the angel who was released from the pit after 1000 years of imprisonment.

The connection to this is the idea that the battle at Armageddon is the same as the fight in Ezekiel 39. If this is true, then the Beast is actually Gog in the OT. IF this s true, and we know what happens to the Beast whe nthe Lord returns, then there is no way that the beast will be able to be resurrected to fight against God and the city of God in Revelation 20:8-10.

With the idea that Gog is a spirit along side the idea that Gog is present in the Battle at Armageddon, and the idea that he appears again, alongside Satan, to attack the "beloved city" proves to me that Gog has to be the Spirit of the AntiChrist. I believe that the premise is sound. I know you do not agree, and I am sure that even some premils would disagree with my theory as well.

As far as word usage is concerned, when I looked up the phrase, chief prince, the only references I have seen are those that I have included, the one concerning Michael and the other concerning Gog. The other prince references do not house even the same context as the one phrase that I have employed. Saying that someone is a prince of a chief is not the same as calling someone a chief prince.

Anyway, it is your right to disagree, and I feel as though we are derailing this thread by continuing this conversation, unless the OP does not object. If you wantto continue this conversation, then let us start another thread.

Partaker of Christ
Dec 31st 2008, 11:18 PM
Gog is a person, and that person has to be spirit. For a spirit to have such authority to command a great army, he must be very highly ranked. To say that he is a (fallen) archangel, has to be a strong probability. My only issue is, that if this 'Gog' is antichrist, he would be ranked less then Satan.

Veretax
Jan 5th 2009, 02:21 PM
As it happens I began my attempt to read through the bible in a year and on Sunday hit the Table of nations. I was looking for a better map than in my study bible and google came up with this one:


Paul and the Nations by James M Scott. (http://books.google.com/books?id=FxpjMNB0x5AC&pg=PA6&dq=table+of+nations+in+genesis)

Now I have no idea who James M Scott is, but reading the material, he compares a number of differing maps including the ionic and helenistic, etc.

there are maps on pages ii, 16,17 (which seems to parallel the map the OP linked too) 19, and there wasa nother but I can't get it to come up. I read parts of the preview and it seems like an interesting book (might see if I can find a copy in print later this week)

iconoclast2012
Feb 1st 2009, 12:32 PM
....I don't mean to overstate the obvious, however as we read the line up & "roll call" of these nations by Ezekiel we see a contingent of "MUSLIM" nations united here by a singular belief "ISLAM" whose main credo enscripted atop the Dome of the rock is "GOD IS NOT BEGOTTEN...NOR DOES HE BEGET"...Thus denying the divinity of Christ which is the very spirit of "antichrist"....Two observations in this "MUSLIM" league:conspicuous by it's absence is long time nemisis of Israel...."Syria"...hmmm...I wonder what happened to Syria....& #2...Has anyone else ever noticed the striking similarity between Ezekiel's roll call of nations & Dan.11:40-45....?

iconoclast2012
Feb 1st 2009, 01:49 PM
How does the map confirm that Gog is an angel that has sided with Lucifer?
....And to be more specific this land area(as identified by this map) most certainly seems to include the former brakeaway nation state of Georgia,which has a curious history(both past & present)conquered & named after it's patron...St. George(the dragonslayer)& oh by the way,the abbreviation used for Georgia is...GOG....!!! However if this country were to play some role in Ezekiel's muslim lineup ,this would present a major conundrum(problem) as it's current population is better than 80%....CHRISTIAN.....!

Partaker of Christ
Feb 1st 2009, 04:43 PM
....And to be more specific this land area(as identified by this map) most certainly seems to include the former brakeaway nation state of Georgia,which has a curious history(both past & present)conquered & named after it's patron...St. George(the dragonslayer)& oh by the way,the abbreviation used for Georgia is...GOG....!!! However if this country were to play some role in Ezekiel's muslim lineup ,this would present a major conundrum(problem) as it's current population is better than 80%....CHRISTIAN.....!

I think GoG is Government of Georgia

pinky
Feb 2nd 2009, 12:18 PM
Hello Partaker of Christ.

Take a look at these maps too, see what you think....


http://www.geocities.com/ayatoles/

iconoclast2012
Feb 2nd 2009, 03:48 PM
I think GoG is Government of Georgia
....Whoa...BRO....interesting comment there, care to expand & expound....? I've explored this scenario before..."Georgia = GOG"...And nobody thinks outside the prophetic .."BOX" more than I do...however i've never been able to connect the last few dot's....referencing JER.51:27..."CALL TOGETHER AGAINST" >>>>"HER"<<<<....who her...?..."END TIMES BABYLON" MOTHER OF ALL HARLOTS, "HER"....perhaps...? V.27 continues.."THE kingdoms of ARARAT,MINNI,& ASHKENAZ..." What do these three kingdoms all have in common....? They directly border our potential GOG(georgia)....! Ashkenaz perhaps the most obscure (Gomer's 1st. son & brother to "TOGARMAH") Gen.10:3, 1st.chron.1:6 , Inhabiting a land area from the southern caucaus mountains to modern day ..."GERMANY" Ashkenanz being the medieval Hebrew name for "GERMANY".However that being said ,I am still unresolved with the exact & precise,can I get a positive I.D.,beyond any shadow of a doubt, a complete & totally accurate description (by modern day name) of Ezekeiel's "roll call of nations"....WELL CAN I.....?... LOL...:dunno:...I think the specific challenge here in determining names & locations is twofold...,Do we take Ezekeiel's description of these nations as he saw them during his time( his ministry began circa 593 b.c.) EZK.1:1-12....Or do we determine these nations in light of present day location...? Knowing full well that many nations boundries have changed since 590 B.C. Ah Haaa ....there's the conundrum...! What say ye...

RabbiKnife
Feb 2nd 2009, 05:08 PM
Look, folks, us good folks here in Hotlanta can't even balance our own budget, much less rule the world.

:P

iconoclast2012
Feb 2nd 2009, 05:39 PM
:rofl::rofl::rofl:....U slay me knife....!!!!!!

iconoclast2012
Feb 2nd 2009, 05:57 PM
Look, folks, us good folks here in Hotlanta can't even balance our own budget, much less rule the world.

:P
...And furthermore... when former president George w. was first informed that Russia had invaded Georgia...he immediately responded "I'll call out the national guard right away"...." & "send JIMMY CARTER my condolences"....

mizzdy
Feb 2nd 2009, 06:00 PM
Wouldn't the antichrist come from the same place that Christ said was the seat of satan? Rev. 2:12 says the throne of satan is in Pergamos or in modern day Turkey. I certainly don't know if that is where he will come from but Turkey has been on my radar for sometime, all the nations there as well as many other countries rely on Turkey for mediating. Turkey is basically liked by all nations so far. They did just come out against Israel in response to gaza but it seems as it is business as usual since the arms sell from Israel to Turkey is still on. I have read where they are starting to get a bit more buddy buddy with Russia. I don't see Russia proper attacking Israel but by proxy with all the other muslim countries but they may do so just to quelch the middle east madness and assert itself further into the region. :2cents: