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poochie
Dec 30th 2008, 03:26 AM
Some/many of you think that I (& Fundamentalists) are modern day Pharisees. While I am attending a Fundamentalist seminary at a large University and there they strongly practice and teach the doctrine of separation. I cannot say that I agree with them entirely, and why my web ministry CERM is called a Conservative Evangelical web ministry and for that few Fundamentalist will associate with me.

Why most of the Fundamentalists will black ball me.

I sometimes will use the NIV
I have a pic of me with a X-files T-shirt on my website and I do not condemn going to movies
I at times listen to Newsboys among other CCM bands.

For these reasons many Fundamentalist missions boards, schools, and churches will black list me.

I modified my into to my separation article a little and said this.


The practice of separation is heavily neglected among many Evangelicals and Charismatics, while it’s the doctrine that separates Fundamentalists from the bunch. Fundamentalists are known for their strong separation views, as well as their legalistic doctrines, which have earned them the name “modern day Pharisees.” But do Fundamentalists practice the doctrine of separation to the extreme?

I desire to hear your input and your reasoning why you think Fundamentalists are "modern day Pharisees."

I am writing my conclusion and will do my proof read to my article after.

Thanks..

chad
Dec 30th 2008, 07:00 AM
Modern day Pharisee, Not sure what that is? Is that someone who will kick you out of thier fellowship for not using the KJV of the bible ? ;)


Anyway, this is what the NT says about Pharisees.

(Mt 5:20 NIV) For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

(Mat 23:2 NIV) "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.
(Mat 23:3 NIV) So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

How Jesus describes the Pharisees in the New Testament

Teachers of the law (Mt 2:4)

Proud (Lk 18:11)

Hypocrytes (Mt 15:6)

Honour God with their lips, but not their hearts (Mt 15:8)

Worship in Vain, but their hearts are far away (Mt 15:9)

Their teachings are but rules taught by men (Mt 15:9)

Do not practice what they preach (Mt 23:3)

They tie heavy loads on mens shoulders, while they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to help (Mt 23:4)

Everything they do is for men to see (Mt 23:5)

They love the places of honour at banquets (Mt 23:6)

And the most important seats in the market place (Mt 23:6)

Shut the kingdom of God in men’s faces, while they themselves do not enter nor let others do so. (Mt 23:13)

They tithe but neglect the important matters of the law, justice, mercy and faithfulness (Mt 23:23)

Clean the outside of the cup, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence (Mt 23:25)

Appear to people as righteous, but on the inside they are full of hypocrisy and wickedness (Mt 23:28)

Chad :rolleyes:

Brother Mark
Dec 30th 2008, 02:45 PM
Some/many of you think that I (& Fundamentalists) are modern day Pharisees. While I am attending a Fundamentalist seminary at a large University and there they strongly practice and teach the doctrine of separation. I cannot say that I agree with them entirely, and why my web ministry CERM is called a Conservative Evangelical web ministry and for that few Fundamentalist will associate with me.

Let me ask you something Poochie. Has God disassociated himself from you? If not, then why would your brethren do such a thing? And would they be in the will of God to do so?



Why most of the Fundamentalists will black ball me.

I sometimes will use the NIV
I have a pic of me with a X-files T-shirt on my website and I do not condemn going to movies
I at times listen to Newsboys among other CCM bands.

I love the Newsboys. Do you like the song "He Reigns"? It's one of my favorites. That and "Beautiful Sound". There are many more.


For these reasons many Fundamentalist missions boards, schools, and churches will black list me.

Do you think they honor God for doing so? If Jesus were here, would he walk with you?


I desire to hear your input and your reasoning why you think Fundamentalists are "modern day Pharisees."

My brother, it is not for me to decide if you are a pharisee or not or your brethren. It is important to know what the Lord God says though. In the end, my judgment can be wrong but His never will be.

With that in mind, I find this passage interesting concerning separation as practiced by some.

Luke 7:36-47

36 Now one of the Pharisees was requesting Him to dine with him. And He entered the Pharisee's house, and reclined at the table. 37 And behold, there was a woman in the city who was a sinner; and when she learned that He was reclining at the table in the Pharisee's house, she brought an alabaster vial of perfume, 38 and standing behind Him at His feet, weeping, she began to wet His feet with her tears, and kept wiping them with the hair of her head, and kissing His feet, and anointing them with the perfume. 39 Now when the Pharisee who had invited Him saw this, he said to himself, "If this man were a prophet He would know who and what sort of person this woman is who is touching Him, that she is a sinner." 40 And Jesus answered and said to him, "Simon, I have something to say to you." And he replied, "Say it, Teacher." 41 "A certain moneylender had two debtors: one owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. 42 "When they were unable to repay, he graciously forgave them both. Which of them therefore will love him more?" 43 Simon answered and said, "I suppose the one whom he forgave more." And He said to him, "You have judged correctly." 44 And turning toward the woman, He said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave Me no water for My feet, but she has wet My feet with her tears, and wiped them with her hair. 45 "You gave Me no kiss; but she, since the time I came in, has not ceased to kiss My feet. 46 "You did not anoint My head with oil, but she anointed My feet with perfume. 47 "For this reason I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little."
NASB

theBelovedDisciple
Dec 30th 2008, 05:11 PM
Some/many of you think that I (& Fundamentalists) are modern day Pharisees. While I am attending a Fundamentalist seminary at a large University and there they strongly practice and teach the doctrine of separation. I cannot say that I agree with them entirely, and why my web ministry CERM is called a Conservative Evangelical web ministry and for that few Fundamentalist will associate with me.

Why most of the Fundamentalists will black ball me.

I sometimes will use the NIV
I have a pic of me with a X-files T-shirt on my website and I do not condemn going to movies
I at times listen to Newsboys among other CCM bands.
----------------------------------------------------------------

For these reasons many Fundamentalist missions boards, schools, and churches will black list me.

I modified my into to my separation article a little and said this.



I desire to hear your input and your reasoning why you think Fundamentalists are "modern day Pharisees."

I am writing my conclusion and will do my proof read to my article after.

Thanks..


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Good post Poochie...

Yes I believe there are modern day Pharisees today... Chad gave a very good description of them.. and its Biblical... When it comes to the 'heart' I believe these modern day Pharisees 'show no mercy'... they are critical and condemning... and they 'elevate' themselves 'spiritually' above everybody else and those who don't follow their 'set' ways .. These often have Scripture memorized that would amaze many... yet they show no mercy, lack spiritual discernment, have a 'rightouensness of their own', do not understand justice. God's issue is your heart.. its intents and actions.. It can become 'hardened'... and its out of the 'issues' and the "secrets' of the heart where Jesus the Christ will judge.

Man hasnt changed.. he is still lost and needs 'rebirth'.. no matter how good you dress it up... and mans 'spiritual condition'.. is still the same.. no matter if your rich, poor, healthy unhealthy etc.. that has not changed over the past 2000 years.... The only transforming that is of any value is the transforming God does when one is born again... this started by God and finished by Him...

So to answer your question.. yes I believe there are modern day Pharisees out there.. I've met a few in my walk with Him...

kenrank
Dec 30th 2008, 05:40 PM
Some/many of you think that I (& Fundamentalists) are modern day Pharisees. While I am attending a Fundamentalist seminary at a large University and there they strongly practice and teach the doctrine of separation. I cannot say that I agree with them entirely, and why my web ministry CERM is called a Conservative Evangelical web ministry and for that few Fundamentalist will associate with me.

Why most of the Fundamentalists will black ball me.

I sometimes will use the NIV
I have a pic of me with a X-files T-shirt on my website and I do not condemn going to movies
I at times listen to Newsboys among other CCM bands.

For these reasons many Fundamentalist missions boards, schools, and churches will black list me.

I modified my into to my separation article a little and said this.



I desire to hear your input and your reasoning why you think Fundamentalists are "modern day Pharisees."

I am writing my conclusion and will do my proof read to my article after.

Thanks..

I had to give this post some thought over night. Going to seminary does not make anyone a Pharisee. Though I am sure there are Pharisees in seminary, just as there are in many places. But keep in mind that you are not talking about actual Pharisees, this was a sect of Judaism. I am sure you speak of the mindset Messiah rebuked that was prevelant in many Pharisees of that day.

Pay no man any mind, you serve YHWH alone. Accept rebuke or reproof when it is warrented, and learn from it....but seek to please your Savior and worry not about the thoughts of those around you. You may be surrounded by many strong in the faith, you may be like Lot, one of a kind. Just do the will of your Father and let the chips fall where they may!

Peace.
Ken

poochie
Dec 30th 2008, 06:04 PM
The Fundamentalists are not mean if you are a fellowship that worships God in a contemporary form, they just wont have anything to do with you. In my case it will mean they wont help me find church ministry, so this is why I keep some of my views to myself. But the time is coming for me to find to look for a job as my deadline is in May, and I hope that they help me, Lord willing. Unless some of my private conversations have squueched on me, they are not aware of my love for the Newsboys, Twila Parris, and that I attend a Conservative Southern Baptist Church in my home state.



Let me ask you something Poochie. Has God disassociated himself from you? If not, then why would your brethren do such a thing? And would they be in the will of God to do so?




I love the Newsboys. Do you like the song "He Reigns"? It's one of my favorites. That and "Beautiful Sound". There are many more.



Do you think they honor God for doing so? If Jesus were here, would he walk with you?



My brother, it is not for me to decide if you are a pharisee or not or your brethren. It is important to know what the Lord God says though. In the end, my judgment can be wrong but His never will be.

With that in mind, I find this passage interesting concerning separation as practiced by some.

Luke 7:36-47

36 Now one of the Pharisees was requesting Him to dine with him. And He entered the Pharisee's house, and reclined at the table. 37 And behold, there was a woman in the city who was a sinner; and when she learned that He was reclining at the table in the Pharisee's house, she brought an alabaster vial of perfume, 38 and standing behind Him at His feet, weeping, she began to wet His feet with her tears, and kept wiping them with the hair of her head, and kissing His feet, and anointing them with the perfume. 39 Now when the Pharisee who had invited Him saw this, he said to himself, "If this man were a prophet He would know who and what sort of person this woman is who is touching Him, that she is a sinner." 40 And Jesus answered and said to him, "Simon, I have something to say to you." And he replied, "Say it, Teacher." 41 "A certain moneylender had two debtors: one owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. 42 "When they were unable to repay, he graciously forgave them both. Which of them therefore will love him more?" 43 Simon answered and said, "I suppose the one whom he forgave more." And He said to him, "You have judged correctly." 44 And turning toward the woman, He said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave Me no water for My feet, but she has wet My feet with her tears, and wiped them with her hair. 45 "You gave Me no kiss; but she, since the time I came in, has not ceased to kiss My feet. 46 "You did not anoint My head with oil, but she anointed My feet with perfume. 47 "For this reason I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little."
NASB

poochie
Dec 30th 2008, 06:10 PM
The Fundamentalists at my school are very loving and kind individuals. However if you listen to CCM, attend a evangelical school/seminary, use the NIV as your default translation or the NLT, then they will not help you find a job, allow you to have a voice,etc..

They claim that they love you, but if you listen to CCM and such they will show you no mercy and judge the living daylights out of you.

Thats why in my article (which I will be sending to Fundamentalists) I will be arguing for a different position on separation for disobedient brethren as they do. I will argue that its sinful and wrong to separate and assume that all evangelicals and charismatic are bad and only they are righteous.

But I do practice and endorse separation much more so than most evangelicals, but my view of separation may be more what John MacArthur would endorse.



----------------------------------------------------------------------

Good post Poochie...

Yes I believe there are modern day Pharisees today... Chad gave a very good description of them.. and its Biblical... When it comes to the 'heart' I believe these modern day Pharisees 'show no mercy'... they are critical and condemning... and they 'elevate' themselves 'spiritually' above everybody else and those who don't follow their 'set' ways .. These often have Scripture memorized that would amaze many... yet they show no mercy, lack spiritual discernment, have a 'rightouensness of their own', do not understand justice. God's issue is your heart.. its intents and actions.. It can become 'hardened'... and its out of the 'issues' and the "secrets' of the heart where Jesus the Christ will judge.

Man hasnt changed.. he is still lost and needs 'rebirth'.. no matter how good you dress it up... and mans 'spiritual condition'.. is still the same.. no matter if your rich, poor, healthy unhealthy etc.. that has not changed over the past 2000 years.... The only transforming that is of any value is the transforming God does when one is born again... this started by God and finished by Him...

So to answer your question.. yes I believe there are modern day Pharisees out there.. I've met a few in my walk with Him...

chad
Dec 30th 2008, 08:14 PM
I don't know if I would call them modern day pharisees, but I have heard it describes as operating in the spirit of the Pharisee, or having a Phariseeic spirit.

Meaning they have the qualities and do similar things as the pharisees did. A dead give away sign is that they are legalistic and unmerciful.

I guess nobody likes being called a pharisee, as Jesus did not have any thing good to say about them.

However regarding your position, I can only suggest that you bring it to God in prayer.

Chad :)

Brother Mark
Dec 30th 2008, 08:28 PM
The Fundamentalists are not mean if you are a fellowship that worships God in a contemporary form, they just wont have anything to do with you.

How is that kind Poochie?


In my case it will mean they wont help me find church ministry, so this is why I keep some of my views to myself. But the time is coming for me to find to look for a job as my deadline is in May, and I hope that they help me, Lord willing. Unless some of my private conversations have squueched on me, they are not aware of my love for the Newsboys, Twila Parris, and that I attend a Conservative Southern Baptist Church in my home state.

Would Jesus separate from you based on those things? Has God removed himself from the evangelicals?

Given the scripture I gave above, is it like pharisee to prevent others from "touching you" because they are sinners?

poochie
Dec 30th 2008, 10:32 PM
You do have a point Mark. I can say that Jesus would not distance himself from me because I listen to Newsboys and watch movies.


How is that kind Poochie?



Would Jesus separate from you based on those things? Has God removed himself from the evangelicals?

Given the scripture I gave above, is it like pharisee to prevent others from "touching you" because they are sinners?

Brother Mark
Dec 30th 2008, 10:49 PM
You do have a point Mark. I can say that Jesus would not distance himself from me because I listen to Newsboys and watch movies.

Hello Poochie. People are very complicated. Many times we don't even know our own hearts or why we do certain things. Thank God he will search our hearts, and try us and show us any wicked way that is in us. Without his searching of me, I shudder to think where I may have ended up.

I spent many years in the fundamentalist movement. I definitely believe in the scriptures and all they say. They are full of wisdom and the word of the Lord is alive and sharper than any two edged sword. I suppose that's enough about me.

I wish to ask you to think on what I am about to write. I do not write it as a challenge to you or as a debate topic. I just write it for food for thought. You can reply if you wish. I just don't want you to think I desire to insight your emotions, or to challenge you or to belittle, judge or any other word such as these that come to mind. From my heart, to yours, I want to ask a few questions just to ponder.

When the pharisees saw people, they often looked for what the people were doing wrong and for reasons why they should not associate with them. What did Jesus say about that?

The pharisees also would see the law as the ultimate. When the woman was caught in adultery, they wanted her stoned because she had broken the law. They were right about what she deserved and her breaking of the law. Jesus was concerned more about the woman than he was her sin. Is the law meant for people or people for the law? Jesus was concerned for the welfare of the woman. The pharisee was concerned for the law. In other words, the pharisee focused on the law. Jesus focused on the person. Why?

The pharisees often compared themselves to others. Jesus even taught about it when he spoke of the prayer life of the pharisee "Father, I thank you that I am not like this publican..." What was Jesus reaction to this kind of thinking?

Anyway, just throwing some things out there. I hope you find a job as you move forward in life.

Grace and peace,

Mark

poochie
Dec 30th 2008, 10:56 PM
The Fundamentalists are always open to helping restore and minister to their own kin in their churches and schools. But they will distance themselves in a heartbeat from contemporary evangelicals and those that listen to CCM.

They wont stone them, or wish them violence, they just wont have anything to do with them. Which in some ways is the modern way of being judgmental.


Hello Poochie. People are very complicated. Many times we don't even know our own hearts or why we do certain things. Thank God he will search our hearts, and try us and show us any wicked way that is in us. Without his searching of me, I shudder to think where I may have ended up.

I spent many years in the fundamentalist movement. I definitely believe in the scriptures and all they say. They are full of wisdom and the word of the Lord is alive and sharper than any two edged sword. I suppose that's enough about me.

I wish to ask you to think on what I am about to write. I do not write it as a challenge to you or as a debate topic. I just write it for food for thought. You can reply if you wish. I just don't want you to think I desire to insight your emotions, or to challenge you or to belittle, judge or any other word such as these that come to mind. From my heart, to yours, I want to ask a few questions just to ponder.

When the pharisees saw people, they often looked for what the people were doing wrong and for reasons why they should not associate with them. What did Jesus say about that?

The pharisees also would see the law as the ultimate. When the woman was caught in adultery, they wanted her stoned because she had broken the law. They were right about what she deserved and her breaking of the law. Jesus was concerned more about the woman than he was her sin. Is the law meant for people or people for the law? Jesus was concerned for the welfare of the woman. The pharisee was concerned for the law. In other words, the pharisee focused on the law. Jesus focused on the person. Why?

The pharisees often compared themselves to others. Jesus even taught about it when he spoke of the prayer life of the pharisee "Father, I thank you that I am not like this publican..." What was Jesus reaction to this kind of thinking?

Anyway, just throwing some things out there. I hope you find a job as you move forward in life.

Grace and peace,

Mark

Brother Mark
Dec 30th 2008, 11:02 PM
They wont stone them, or wish them violence, they just wont have anything to do with them. Which in some ways is the modern way of being judgmental.

You said volumes right there.

Who did Jesus have his harshest words for? Why was he so harsh?

amazzin
Dec 30th 2008, 11:06 PM
Some/many of you think that I (& Fundamentalists) are modern day Pharisees. While I am attending a Fundamentalist seminary at a large University and there they strongly practice and teach the doctrine of separation. I cannot say that I agree with them entirely, and why my web ministry CERM is called a Conservative Evangelical web ministry and for that few Fundamentalist will associate with me.

Why most of the Fundamentalists will black ball me.

I sometimes will use the NIV
I have a pic of me with a X-files T-shirt on my website and I do not condemn going to movies
I at times listen to Newsboys among other CCM bands.

For these reasons many Fundamentalist missions boards, schools, and churches will black list me.

I modified my into to my separation article a little and said this.



I desire to hear your input and your reasoning why you think Fundamentalists are "modern day Pharisees."

I am writing my conclusion and will do my proof read to my article after.

Thanks..

Fundamentalist or not, anyone who leads a church or is a leader in a church and manipulates with controling rules is a pharisee. Anyone who is paranoid about their position and forces people to do things is a Pharisee. Anyone in a church who says "I" and "me" and doesn't say "we" or "us" is a Pharisee

mikebr
Dec 30th 2008, 11:16 PM
So this fits from fischtank.com

The 12 Steps 1. We admit that our single most unmitigated pleasure is to judge other people.
2. Have come to believe that our means of obtaining greatness is to make everyone lower than ourselves in our own mind.
3. Realize that we detest mercy being given to those who, unlike us, haven't worked for it and don't deserve it.
4. Have decided that we don't want to get what we deserve after all, and we don't want anyone else to either.
5. Will cease all attempts to apply teaching and rebuke to anyone but ourselves.
6. Are ready to have God remove all these defects of attitude and character.
7. Embrace the belief that we are, and will always be, experts at sinning.
8. Are looking closely at the lives of famous men and women of the Bible who turned out to be ordinary sinners like us.
9. Are seeking through prayer and meditation to make a conscious effort to consider other better than ourselves.
10. Embrace the state of astonishment as a permanent and glorious reality.
11. Choose to rid ourselves of any attitude that is not bathed in gratitude.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we will try to carry this message to others who think that Christians are better than everyone else.


John Fischer

theBelovedDisciple
Dec 30th 2008, 11:18 PM
You do have a point Mark. I can say that Jesus would not distance himself from me because I listen to Newsboys and watch movies.

I agree Poochie.. He would not distance Himself from you.. if you watched movies, or listened to the Newsboys... or even country music... lol...

He would not distance Himself from you for those things..

He loves you too much..

poochie
Dec 30th 2008, 11:22 PM
The Fundamentalists have no rules for attenders, but it one desires to be a member, then they have rules to follow. Or else be judged spiritually.



Fundamentalist or not, anyone who leads a church or is a leader in a church and manipulates with controling rules is a pharisee. Anyone who is paranoid about their position and forces people to do things is a Pharisee. Anyone in a church who says "I" and "me" and doesn't say "we" or "us" is a Pharisee

poochie
Dec 30th 2008, 11:25 PM
They have a strong position against CCM and anything not traditional in music.
I prefer Hymns for their strong theology, but I appreciate God and realize that He is not a "cookie cutter" as they have you to believe.

Measuring the Music-Markinjini
http://religiousaffectionsministries.org/

Check out their arguments for music


I agree Poochie.. He would not distance Himself from you.. if you watched movies, or listened to the Newsboys... or even country music... lol...

He would not distance Himself from you for those things..

He loves you too much..

mikebr
Dec 30th 2008, 11:30 PM
They have a strong position against CCM and anything not traditional in music.
I prefer Hymns for their strong theology, but I appreciate God and realize that He is not a "cookie cutter" as they have you to believe.

Measuring the Music-Markinjini
http://religiousaffectionsministries.org/

Check out their arguments for music

They just haven't listened to the right ones. Check our Andrew Peterson or Derek Webb. They are sometimes more theological than some hymns I've heard. To me some one who selects a type of music and says that its God's only type is............:B

Brother Mark
Dec 30th 2008, 11:43 PM
They have a strong position against CCM and anything not traditional in music.

Do you think they have solid biblical foundation for being against CCM? (I've sat under the preaching.)

If not, then what are we to do with the scripture that says "you make traditions of men as doctrines of God".

poochie
Dec 30th 2008, 11:55 PM
Do you think they have solid biblical foundation for being against CCM? (I've sat under the preaching.)

If not, then what are we to do with the scripture that says "you make traditions of men as doctrines of God".

They have some good arguments against CCM. But a big part of their argument is based on a "assumption." But in other ways I'd say they are right in that Christians are supposed to be "holy" and separate from the world (2 Cor 6:14-18).

Read my article on separation once its finished which should be soon.

I think you will find that I disagree with you Mark and also the Fundamentalists. But you wait and read.

Brother Mark
Dec 30th 2008, 11:57 PM
They have some good arguments against CCM. But a big part of their argument is based on a "assumption." But in other ways I'd say they are right in that Christians are supposed to be "holy" and separate from the world (2 Cor 6:14-18).

Read my article on separation once its finished which should be soon.

I think you will find that I disagree with you Mark and also the Fundamentalists. But you wait and read.

It is dangerous to preach assumption is it not? Why is CCM of the world?

When we preach assumption, are we still preaching doctrines of God?

poochie
Dec 31st 2008, 03:12 AM
It is dangerous to preach assumption is it not? Why is CCM of the world?

When we preach assumption, are we still preaching doctrines of God?

Dress
Language
etc..

There are many reasons why much of CCM is worldly. I agree with most of their argument here.

Brother Mark
Dec 31st 2008, 03:34 AM
Dress
Language
etc..

There are many reasons why much of CCM is worldly. I agree with most of their argument here.

What is worldly about singing "Shout to the Lord" in church?

poochie
Dec 31st 2008, 06:19 AM
What is worldly about singing "Shout to the Lord" in church?

I asked one of my teachers that question and he gave me some answer that made no sense except only to those already convinced.

The Fundamentalists are only able to convince the already convinced.

poochie
Dec 31st 2008, 06:22 AM
What is worldly about singing "Shout to the Lord" in church?

Brother Mark why did you leave Fundamentalism? I want to hear your reasons and your story.

I do not attend a KJVO church bye the way and there are ESV and NASB preferred churches, so I hope one of your reasons is not because they all use the KJV, because thats not true.

Brother Mark
Dec 31st 2008, 06:37 AM
I asked one of my teachers that question and he gave me some answer that made no sense except only to those already convinced.

The Fundamentalists are only able to convince the already convinced.

I understand. I heard messages against the "beat" of modern music. But when I searched my bible, I found not one warning against it. Though I did find scriptures that said to praise him with all sorts of music.

Brother Mark
Dec 31st 2008, 06:38 AM
Brother Mark why did you leave Fundamentalism? I want to hear your reasons and your story.

I do not attend a KJVO church bye the way and there are ESV and NASB preferred churches, so I hope one of your reasons is not because they all use the KJV, because thats not true.

It wasn't the KJV stuff. I was still KJV when I first started attending another church. I'll share more with you on that tomorrow brother Poochie. BTW, I had a pet named that one time too. Is that your dog in the photo?

Grace and peace,

Mark

mikebr
Dec 31st 2008, 01:42 PM
http://bible.cc/parallel2.gifNew American Standard Bible (http://nasb.scripturetext.com/psalms/33.htm) (©1995) (http://www.lockman.org/)
Sing to Him a new song; Play skillfully with a shout of joy.GOD'S WORD® Translation (http://gwt.scripturetext.com/psalms/33.htm) (©1995) (http://www.godsword.org/)
Sing a new song to him. Play beautifully and joyfully on stringed instruments.
King James Bible (http://kingjbible.com/psalms/33.htm)
Sing unto him a new song; play skilfully with a loud noise.
American King James Version (http://kjv.us/psalms/33.htm)
Sing to him a new song; play skillfully with a loud noise.
American Standard Version (http://asvbible.com/psalms/33.htm)
Sing unto him a new song; Play skilfully with a loud noise.
Bible in Basic English (http://basicenglishbible.com/psalms/33.htm)
Make a new song to him; playing expertly with a loud noise.
Douay-Rheims Bible (http://drb.scripturetext.com/psalms/33.htm)
Sing to him a new canticle, sing well unto him with a loud noise.
Darby Bible Translation (http://darbybible.com/psalms/33.htm)
Sing unto him a new song; play skilfully with a loud sound

poochie
Dec 31st 2008, 06:02 PM
I understand. I heard messages against the "beat" of modern music. But when I searched my bible, I found not one warning against it. Though I did find scriptures that said to praise him with all sorts of music.

Read the book Measuring the Music. They are there from one POV.

Refusing to do so you are basically saying that you are already convinced and wont check out their arguments in depth.

Or if you dont have the money then go to this website

http://religiousaffectionsministries.org/

Brother Mark
Dec 31st 2008, 06:39 PM
Brother Mark why did you leave Fundamentalism? I want to hear your reasons and your story.

I do not attend a KJVO church bye the way and there are ESV and NASB preferred churches, so I hope one of your reasons is not because they all use the KJV, because thats not true.

I grew up in a church that was KJVO. The women couldn't wear pants. Some folks didn't believe in makeup. My family was one that didn't. Different churches had different things they seemed to focus on. When I was teen, the church I went to was big about clothing and school. Christian schools were where you sent your kids if you loved them. My parents felt differently than that particular church so I went to a public school. They were real big about keeping distant from other denominations. The southern baptist and charismatics were really frowned upon. Of course, modern music was wrong. Hymns were OK. They preached against rock-n-roll but amazingly, country was alright. Go figure.

That's the short story of the kind of churches I grew up in. They were HUGE into standards. Perhaps you've heard of them.

Long story short, I got saved when I was 25 and God told me to go to a big Southern Baptist Church in town. I was going to a little fundamental church earlier. Even though I was lost, I was still attending church. But that was about to change. Anyway, after getting saved, God moved me to this big southern baptist church. It was there that I God really began challenging me in some areas. But that can be the next reply. He began to relate to me personally. Sins I never had power over began to drop off of me. I grew in the Lord.

That's a start of how I left the fundamentalist movement. But it's only a start. It doesn't get into many details. If you're interested we can discuss more. if not, that's ok too.

Grace and peace,

Mark

Vhayes
Dec 31st 2008, 06:46 PM
I don't want to side track the discussion here but I feel I need to say this:
The Pharisees of the Old Testament became so wrapped up in the "do-'s and do not-s" they lost sight of The Promise and based their lives on their own abilities and beliefs.

I think the same is true of modern day Pharisees - they have lost sight of the risen Christ and concentrate on their particular set of "isms".

Not sure if that will help or hinder the discussion... if it hinders, please ignore it.
V

tt1106
Dec 31st 2008, 07:00 PM
I think there are modern day Pharisees. I also think that there are plenty of Christians who could use alot more legalism in their life.
The JOY of the Lord.

Brother Mark
Dec 31st 2008, 07:00 PM
Read the book Measuring the Music. They are there from one POV.

Refusing to do so you are basically saying that you are already convinced and wont check out their arguments in depth.

Or if you dont have the money then go to this website

http://religiousaffectionsministries.org/

I looked briefly at the web site. I found an article there by Dan Sweatt called "Is Music Really Neutral". I searched it for biblical commentary but didn't find any. Perhaps I missed it. He made his argument from history and cultural values. Some of the article was OK. For instance, he did say suggest that trying to reach the lost with their own music was not a good premise. I agree with him. But using music to praise God is a good thing. The psalmist even said to praise God with music. And as has already been pointed out in this thread, he said to praise him with a new song too.

Anyway, the article was very much the same kind of argument that Pharisees used. They used history and tradition to determine right and wrong. Those are fallable ways to determine truth and go against Christ himself.

Scott Aniol did a better job in his article on music and sanctification. He said something in his article that I really like. He said we need to find out what God likes. To that, I say a hearty amen! Then he says something else...


When discussing musical styles, it is often the music itself that is the issue at hand. Since musical style is not specifically addressed in Scripture, it is clear why this would be a controversial issue.

Interesting. He's right. It's not addressed in scripture. I found that out when I searched it out for myself years ago.

From there, he goes on to speak about the text of music and seems to do a good job of it. And by text, he seems to be speaking of the words themselves.

This writer actually does a good job and he uses scripture to speak of how music can communicate universal emotions. And this is where he does very, very well.


So what, then, is the conclusion? Music communicates primary emotions universally. Therefore, if a certain style communicates emotions that are displeasing to God, then that musical style is displeasing to God and unacceptable for believers.

In this we agree. Where the fundamentalist often go wrong, is they take what the music communicates to them personally, and thinks that is the universal communication as well. This is where they make their mistake. This write acknowledges how culture and upbringing can influence the way one interprets music. I'll give you an example.

My mother's family were pentecostal fundamentalist. No makeup, women couldn't wear pants, men couldn't wear shorts, etc. But boy could they sing. They loved drums in the worship service and they would sing to the Lord. But in my church, we had a man who was saved and delivered from drugs, alcohol, etc. He hated drums. He felt there were from the devil. Why? Because when he heard drums, he was reminded of his previous life style when he used drums for evil purposes.

Most fundamentalist I have associated with are not willing to admit that their own cultural influences have helped them determine their own doctrine, thus they have made traditions of men as doctrines of God. The man that wrote this article is endeavoring to make a distinction in those things and seems to do a decent job.

Though, I did chuckle at his argument on sanctification. He said many christians wish to see how close they can get to something and it be OK. He's right about that. But then he spoke of that being permissible vs that which is edifying. Funny, I have heard that many times from fundamentalist. They will preach against their pet peave, i.e. music, movies, etc. all the while enjoying their highschool football, or fishing, or hunting or many other secular activities that are amoral.

theBelovedDisciple
Dec 31st 2008, 08:06 PM
Its interesting the different views on 'music'... I once had a friend who if you had any type of music on in the vehicle... other than praise and worship... he would reach over and turn it off... making it known that we didn't need to listen to that 'junk'...

then on a personal note.. when I hear the music.. those songs I used to live by and filled my ears when I was without Christ.. 'lost'...... when I hear those songs now.. I 'remember' where I was at one time.. a lost sinner without hope.. and the tears begin to flow down my face.. This usually happens anywhere.. even at work.. the Spirit moving my heart to be thankful... My heart rejoicing and so very very thankful for His Salvation.. and the fact that He loved me even back then... Loved me enough to seek me out and Save me... I remember 'where' and 'what condition ' I was once in ...... and alot of the time its when I hear those songs from the past.. Like it states in Ephesians..

Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Does that type of music rule and control my life.. no, not at all...

I have not made it a 'legalistic' rule ...to not listen to it... making it me feel more righteous or good about myself...

Its interesting to see the different views on music...

poochie
Dec 31st 2008, 09:25 PM
Minus the KJVO perspective what you describe sounds allot like the University and churches I am allowed to attend in the South. Big on rules and yes evangelical and charismatic are frowned upon. No they wont stone, shoot, or be rude to one of them if they showed up, but they may be ignored and definately frowned upon like the NIV. They wont sell it in their bookstores or endorse it in anyway. I like the NIV, along with the ESV, NKJV & KJV.

Yes they believe ONLY in Christian school. Thats what dogged my grade in a class because I politely expressed my POV in my paper. I basicially said that Christian school is not always possible, but is to eb strongly reccomended. The teacher said its always possible, and if not possible, then the parents must move to another state or area where it is possible.

Having taken that course, read their books and written that paper I can gladly say that Christian school is to be STRONGLY ENCOURAGED as secular schools teach secular Humanism and modern Psychological though, and Philosophy. But that is for another topic.



I grew up in a church that was KJVO. The women couldn't wear pants. Some folks didn't believe in makeup. My family was one that didn't. Different churches had different things they seemed to focus on. When I was teen, the church I went to was big about clothing and school. Christian schools were where you sent your kids if you loved them. My parents felt differently than that particular church so I went to a public school. They were real big about keeping distant from other denominations. The southern baptist and charismatics were really frowned upon. Of course, modern music was wrong. Hymns were OK. They preached against rock-n-roll but amazingly, country was alright. Go figure.

That's the short story of the kind of churches I grew up in. They were HUGE into standards. Perhaps you've heard of them.

Long story short, I got saved when I was 25 and God told me to go to a big Southern Baptist Church in town. I was going to a little fundamental church earlier. Even though I was lost, I was still attending church. But that was about to change. Anyway, after getting saved, God moved me to this big southern baptist church. It was there that I God really began challenging me in some areas. But that can be the next reply. He began to relate to me personally. Sins I never had power over began to drop off of me. I grew in the Lord.

That's a start of how I left the fundamentalist movement. But it's only a start. It doesn't get into many details. If you're interested we can discuss more. if not, that's ok too.

Grace and peace,

Mark

poochie
Dec 31st 2008, 09:34 PM
Are you trying to make a condescending mockery of me in public Chad?

Asking people to "publicly pray for me" when I never asked this nor did I state any "problems" is wrong Chad.

If I said I had a medial problem, I need a job or what not in a appropriate form that would be different. But the way you have posted this makes me think there are other motives at work here.



Ok, this is probably not the right place for this post, but I will post it anyway, seeing it is releavant to this post.

Last night when I was praying I felt that I should pray for poochie in 2 areas. The first I cannot tell you about, but the second is a prayer that God will open the door for poochie in Gods time.

So Today in my prayer time, I am going to be praying for poochie, and I was going to ask if anyone else would like to pray for him as well or join in agreement. If you want to, please do so in your prayers today.


Thanks -


God Bless


Chad.

poochie
Dec 31st 2008, 09:36 PM
Well put. Scott knows a bit on the topic thats for sure. But can I agree with him entirely? Not really. But I do agree with him.

Sadly there are many Evangelical churches that worship music and live all for it.



I looked briefly at the web site. I found an article there by Dan Sweatt called "Is Music Really Neutral". I searched it for biblical commentary but didn't find any. Perhaps I missed it. He made his argument from history and cultural values. Some of the article was OK. For instance, he did say suggest that trying to reach the lost with their own music was not a good premise. I agree with him. But using music to praise God is a good thing. The psalmist even said to praise God with music. And as has already been pointed out in this thread, he said to praise him with a new song too.

Anyway, the article was very much the same kind of argument that Pharisees used. They used history and tradition to determine right and wrong. Those are fallable ways to determine truth and go against Christ himself.

Scott Aniol did a better job in his article on music and sanctification. He said something in his article that I really like. He said we need to find out what God likes. To that, I say a hearty amen! Then he says something else...



Interesting. He's right. It's not addressed in scripture. I found that out when I searched it out for myself years ago.

From there, he goes on to speak about the text of music and seems to do a good job of it. And by text, he seems to be speaking of the words themselves.

This writer actually does a good job and he uses scripture to speak of how music can communicate universal emotions. And this is where he does very, very well.



In this we agree. Where the fundamentalist often go wrong, is they take what the music communicates to them personally, and thinks that is the universal communication as well. This is where they make their mistake. This write acknowledges how culture and upbringing can influence the way one interprets music. I'll give you an example.

My mother's family were pentecostal fundamentalist. No makeup, women couldn't wear pants, men couldn't wear shorts, etc. But boy could they sing. They loved drums in the worship service and they would sing to the Lord. But in my church, we had a man who was saved and delivered from drugs, alcohol, etc. He hated drums. He felt there were from the devil. Why? Because when he heard drums, he was reminded of his previous life style when he used drums for evil purposes.

Most fundamentalist I have associated with are not willing to admit that their own cultural influences have helped them determine their own doctrine, thus they have made traditions of men as doctrines of God. The man that wrote this article is endeavoring to make a distinction in those things and seems to do a decent job.

Though, I did chuckle at his argument on sanctification. He said many christians wish to see how close they can get to something and it be OK. He's right about that. But then he spoke of that being permissible vs that which is edifying. Funny, I have heard that many times from fundamentalist. They will preach against their pet peave, i.e. music, movies, etc. all the while enjoying their highschool football, or fishing, or hunting or many other secular activities that are amoral.

Brother Mark
Dec 31st 2008, 09:37 PM
Minus the KJVO perspective what you describe sounds allot like the University and churches I am allowed to attend in the South. Big on rules and yes evangelical and charismatic are frowned upon. No they wont stone, shoot, or be rude to one of them if they showed up, but they may be ignored and definately frowned upon like the NIV. They wont sell it in their bookstores or endorse it in anyway. I like the NIV, along with the ESV, NKJV & KJV.

Yes they believe ONLY in Christian school. Thats what dogged my grade in a class because I politely expressed my POV in my paper. I basicially said that Christian school is not always possible, but is to eb strongly reccomended. The teacher said its always possible, and if not possible, then the parents must move to another state or area where it is possible.

Having taken that course, read their books and written that paper I can gladly say that Christian school is to be STRONGLY ENCOURAGED as secular schools teach secular Humanism and modern Psychological though, and Philosophy. But that is for another topic.

Well, you didn't ask me more about why, so I'll drop that for now.

Let me ask you a question Poochie. If they really knew what you thought, what you believed, what was deep inside of you, your struggles with sin, your weaknesses, etc. would they accept you?

poochie
Dec 31st 2008, 09:41 PM
They have to be questioned and discerned from the scriptures. Once I met a Charismatic that claimed he could see demons and angels and could discern if someone was saved or not, as God had given him this spiritual gift.

He refused to respond to Biblical reasoning, or the scriptures. I dont care how emotional or how "on fire" for God he claimed to be, his response was all emotion and had no Bible.

Those that claim to get direct revelations from God have to be questioned.

The Fundamentalists (although wrong in a few areas) at least have their Bibles in their hands and take the scripture seriously.

I have never had one of them say that they had some direct revelation from God to pray for someone, or what not.
God does not countradict his word and although he can give direct revelation, most of the time these days he speaks through His word.

poochie
Dec 31st 2008, 09:43 PM
Well, you didn't ask me more about why, so I'll drop that for now.

Let me ask you a question Poochie. If they really knew what you thought, what you believed, what was deep inside of you, your struggles with sin, your weaknesses, etc. would they accept you?

Depends on the believer.

amazzin
Dec 31st 2008, 09:47 PM
They have to be questioned and discerned from the scriptures. Once I met a Charismatic that claimed he could see demons and angels and could discern if someone was saved or not, as God had given him this spiritual gift.

He refused to respond to Biblical reasoning, or the scriptures. I dont care how emotional or how "on fire" for God he claimed to be, his response was all emotion and had no Bible.

Those that claim to get direct revelations from God have to be questioned.

The Fundamentalists (although wrong in a few areas) at least have their Bibles in their hands and take the scripture seriously.

I have never had one of them say that they had some direct revelation from God to pray for someone, or what not.
God does not countradict his word and although he can give direct revelation, most of the time these days he speaks through His word.

It is always wonderful to have you paint brush all Charasmatics as Crazy-matics poochie!
Now excuse me while I do cast out some demons from my car. It seems my Rolls Royce is cooperating today

Brother Mark
Dec 31st 2008, 09:52 PM
Well put. Scott knows a bit on the topic thats for sure. But can I agree with him entirely? Not really. But I do agree with him.

Sadly there are many Evangelical churches that worship music and live all for it.

OK, I want to push just a little here. How many evangelical churches are there? How many have you been in? How do you know they worship the music instead of God?

As Scott stated, scripture is silent on the issue of types of music. For that reason, it's best we remain silent on it as well, isn't it? I think it safe to say that if the emotion music raises in my heart is not Godly, then I should not listen to it. But just because it raises it in my heart, doesn't mean it raises the same issues in the heart of others. If scripture is silent on music, then perhaps a fitting verse is "to the pure, all things are pure".

poochie
Dec 31st 2008, 09:56 PM
I apologize for that. They are not all the same. But I only mentioned one Charismatic in particular.


It is always wonderful to have you paint brush all Charasmatics as Crazy-matics poochie!
Now excuse me while I do cast out some demons from my car. It seems my Rolls Royce is cooperating today

Brother Mark
Dec 31st 2008, 09:56 PM
Depends on the believer.

Let me push a little here too. Why then do you cast Evangelicals and Charismatics in a broad brush, but then give the fundamentalist the benefit of "it depends on the believer"?

Just food for thought.

poochie
Dec 31st 2008, 10:00 PM
Let me push a little here too. Why then do you cast Evangelicals and Charismatics in a broad brush, but then give the fundamentalist the benefit of "it depends on the believer"?

Just food for thought.

I need to get back t my article as I am wasting too much time. But once you read it you will see that I do not endorse 2nd and 3rd degree separation to the same degree as Fundamentalists.

My school will not play Liberty University at sports, and I believe they take their separation views to the extreme.

You will soon see that I give the benefit of the doubt to many evangelicals.

chad
Dec 31st 2008, 10:00 PM
No, that was never the intention. When God places something on my heart to pray for, it is always with the intent that God is going to bless the person and will work in their life to help - better thier walk with God.

I apologize if I have caused any offense. I have now deleted my original post.

Sorry :(

Chad.



Are you trying to make a condescending mockery of me in public Chad?

Asking people to "publicly pray for me" when I never asked this nor did I state any "problems" is wrong Chad.

If I said I had a medial problem, I need a job or what not in a appropriate form that would be different. But the way you have posted this makes me think there are other motives at work here.

Brother Mark
Dec 31st 2008, 10:02 PM
I need to get back t my article as I am wasting too much time. But once you read it you will see that I do not endorse 2nd and 3rd degree separation to the same degree as Fundamentalists.

My school will not play Liberty University at sports, and I believe they take their separation views to the extreme.

You will soon see that I give the benefit of the doubt to many evangelicals.

I don't feel I have wasted my time, except maybe by reading those articles. :P

I didn't ask those questions just willy-nilly Poochie nor did I ask them to be argumentative. I do hope they came across as sincere, thought provoking, and full of grace.

Grace and peace,

Mark

poochie
Dec 31st 2008, 10:04 PM
Apology accepted.



No, that was never the intention. When God places something on my heart to pray for, it is always with the intent that God is going to bless the person and will work in their life to help - better thier walk with God.

I apologize if I have caused any offense. I have now deleted my original post.

Sorry :(

Chad.

poochie
Dec 31st 2008, 10:06 PM
No I appreciate the dialogue I meant that I have been wasting too much time. But when I finish my article and post it, (about 90% completed) then we will dialogue more.

God bless


John



I don't feel I have wasted my time, except maybe by reading those articles. :P

I didn't ask those questions just willy-nilly Poochie nor did I ask them to be argumentative. I do hope they came across as sincere, thought provoking, and full of grace.

Grace and peace,

Mark

Brother Mark
Dec 31st 2008, 10:18 PM
No I appreciate the dialogue I meant that I have been wasting too much time. But when I finish my article and post it, (about 90% completed) then we will dialogue more.

God bless


John

Thanks John. I look forward to finishing our conversation.

Grace and peace,

Mark