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In Dust and Ashes
Dec 30th 2008, 09:14 PM
So I'm reading 1 Corinthians and I ran over another chapter where Paul goes through the whole, "women were made for men so they should cover their heads...." etc. Theres a lot of passages like this. Theres even places in the bible where it says that the wife is the "weaker" partner.

I've heard pastors say that it's a cultural thing and shouldn't be taken literally, or that it's not that important to dwell on. and I've heard pastors try other ways to rationalize it out into divval, but I want to know, really, without people being afraid to offend anyone, what these passages (and thusly, the bible) is saying about what it means to be a woman and if I am somehow less than a man is?

the only passage I took solace in is where it says that we both come from each other (woman came from man originally, but now man is born of woman). The rest just sounds chauvanistic.

Teke
Dec 30th 2008, 09:50 PM
Since man needed help and God sent woman, does that make women less than men. I think not. The Church needed help and God sent the Holy Spirit. Does that diminish the Church, I think not.

Christianity understands God as a Trinity. Father (unbegotten), Son (begotten) and Holy Spirit (proceeds). All are equal and the same in nature. So it is with mankind. Adam was unbegotten, Eve proceeded from Adam and Seth was begotten.

Whether we are woman or man we are human, and thus are we united and indivisible as the Trinity is.

Why did you title this thread "the submissive woman"? Jesus was a man and was submissive as a servant.

In Dust and Ashes
Dec 30th 2008, 11:21 PM
so what do you make of the wife being the "weaker" partner in a marriage?

I think it's said in one of the peters but I'm too lazy to look it up.

quiet dove
Dec 30th 2008, 11:31 PM
so what do you make of the wife being the "weaker" partner in a marriage?

I think it's said in one of the peters but I'm too lazy to look it up.

Being submissive in a Godly way does not equate to weaker, but just the opposite, it takes more strength to be submissive than to not be submissive.

Plus, the husband is to treat and love his wife the way the Christ treats and loves the Church. Cherish her and take care of her. Not be a lording over chauvanistic pig. A smart man, for starters, is going to marry a woman he respects, thus her opinions and input will be desired and respected. He can still "be the boss" but if he has any sense at all, he married a partner, and equal and respected partner. One that makes him stronger and smarter, supports and encourages, and so on.

If a husband has an unhappy, beaten down, submissive wife, ...well..... she is a reflection of him. And to mistreat a wife just shows how much a man, is not a man. And how little Christlike he is.

However, a measure of a man's taking care of his wife is not in how big the house is, or a bunch of fancy clothes. If the wife is grippy and complainy all the time and cannot be made happy that cannot be blamed on her husband. The husband and wife both should have respect for each other and do all things as doing them for the Lord, always putting the other first, be content, as Paul said, with little or with abundance.

In Dust and Ashes
Dec 31st 2008, 12:34 AM
Being submissive in a Godly way does not equate to weaker, but just the opposite, it takes more strength to be submissive than to not be submissive.

I didn't say that. The bible uses the term "weaker"

1 Peter 3:7

NIV-"Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers."

KJV-"Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered."

what does that mean?

It brings to mind several quotes I found floating around on the net from 1800s books on etiquet and chivelry which said something to the extent of "we men must do everything in our power to cater to the women because they are weak and cannot do all that we can."

Brother Mark
Dec 31st 2008, 12:37 AM
I didn't say that. The bible uses the term "weaker"

1 Peter 3:7

NIV-"Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers."

KJV-"Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered."

what does that mean?

Weaker vessel... vessels often refer to our bodies in scripture. All it's say is that in general, women have weaker bodies than we do. Men need to be aware of that in all things. It has nothing to do with mind, emotions, etc.

In Dust and Ashes
Dec 31st 2008, 12:40 AM
Weaker vessel... vessels often refer to our bodies in scripture. All it's say is that in general, women have weaker bodies than we do. Men need to be aware of that in all things. It has nothing to do with mind, emotions, etc.

I would accept that as the answer except that if you put it with all the other passages (mostly the ones that Paul wrote) that refer to women, it seems he means much more than just weak in physical strength.

Brother Mark
Dec 31st 2008, 12:42 AM
I would accept that as the answer except that if you put it with all the other passages (mostly the ones that Paul wrote) that refer to women, it seems he means much more than just weak in physical strength.

Where else does Paul use the word weaker?

RickH
Dec 31st 2008, 12:47 AM
The Greek word that Peter uses in 1 Peter 3:7 is transliterated "asthenes" and I have posted what a few of my dictionaries say about the word. My commentaries agrree that it is weaker in physical and social strength.



ἀσθενής, ές sick; weak; delicate (of parts of the body); helpless (Romans 5:6 (http://www.crossbooks.com/verse.asp?ref=Ro+5%3A6))
Barclay M. Newman, A Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament, (Stuttgart: German Bible Society, 1993), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, 27.

Weak, powerless, without physical ability (Matt. 26:41 (http://www.crossbooks.com/verse.asp?ref=Mt+26%3A41), "the flesh is weak," impotent
Spiros Zodhiates, The Complete Word Study Dictionary – New Testament, (Chattanooga, TN: AMG Publishers, 1993), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, 274.

Greek NASB Number: 772

Greek Word: ἀσθενής

Transliterated Word: asthenęs
Root: from 1 (http://www.crossbooks.com/book.asp?pub=0&book=66&sec=00000548#g1) (as a neg. pref.) and sphallô sthenęs (strong);

Definition: without strength, weak:--

List of English Words and Number of Times Used
helpless (1),
sick (6),
unimpressive (1),
weak (12),
weak things (1),
weaker (1),
weakness (2).

, New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, (Anaheim, CA: Foundation Publications, 1998), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, Under: "772".

In Dust and Ashes
Dec 31st 2008, 01:07 AM
social strength.

what do you mean by this?

innerspaced
Dec 31st 2008, 01:12 AM
>The rest just sounds chauvanistic.

That's because it is chauvinistic. You are right to ask these questions. Some things you can't rationalize away, and the bible is rife with chauvinism.

You can't say woman are weaker, yet equal. You can't say a woman is supposed to be submissive, yet equal. You can try to rationalize it away, but lets call a spade a spade.

quiet dove
Dec 31st 2008, 01:13 AM
I didn't say that. The bible uses the term "weaker"

1 Peter 3:7

NIV-"Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers."

KJV-"Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered."

what does that mean?

It brings to mind several quotes I found floating around on the net from 1800s books on etiquet and chivelry which said something to the extent of "we men must do everything in our power to cater to the women because they are weak and cannot do all that we can."

That is not said in the context meaning weaker as less capable, but just like I am stronger than my small child, I am to take care of them, they are weaker. Yes I am physically weaker than my husband but that does not equate to being lesser than.

A weaker vessel is handled with loving care as opposed to say a football. We don't throw our china playing football, it is a weaker vessel.

In other words, a husband cares for and protects his wife, as a weaker vessel, something special. Proper context and the guidance of the Holy Spirit make it clear that Jesus taught love and respect between husband and wife.

RickH
Dec 31st 2008, 01:21 AM
what do you mean by this?

In the times that Peter wrote his letter, women did not have jobs, they did not do volunteer work, or basically anything outside of caring for home and children and the details that they tended to. In today's American society, it would basically be a housewife that never had a job or "got out much".
The husband on the other hand, was the provider, may have been on governing councils and had a bigger influence then his wife, therefore he would be stronger socially. If a woman wanted something done, chances are her appeals would be unheard by any authority but if her husband brought something before them, then they would at least listen to him and the request would be more probable to come out favorably.

I know this is not neccessarily how it works in the United States, but there are dozens of countries where this would still hold true.
God bless,
Rick

Teke
Dec 31st 2008, 02:54 PM
so what do you make of the wife being the "weaker" partner in a marriage?

I think it's said in one of the peters but I'm too lazy to look it up.

Recall what God said to Paul in 2 Cor. 12:9 "My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness."

In 1 Peter 1-7 we read the stunning call to contentment in Christian marriage, whether we live in the first century or the twenty first century. The dignity and modesty of woman, and her good conduct, have the power to call her husband to faith and devotion. Nor are husbands to take advantage of this superior conduct on the part of their wives, but are to reciprocate, indeed to give honor.
Peter's image of marriage is one of sacramental or holy union, not merely of legal contract. Contrary to the inheritance customs of the time, husband and wife are "heirs together of the grace of life" (v7). Failure to live "with understanding" with one's spouse even affects one's relationship with God (see Eph. 5:22-44).

Only to the biased is the point missed in scripture of woman"s important role. We women are not usually out front in the glory, but behind the scenes helping the glory unfold. Do they not play even an important role in Jesus ministry, being the first deaconess' of the church. The seven myrrh bearing women are who supported Jesus ministry and didn't draw back even at the crucifixion when the men ran away. Jesus honored such, with them being the first to see Him resurrected.

They give birth to man and raise him up for God's glory. In Jewish tradition, especially Hasidic Jews, a woman is honored greatly, like a queen. Even the church is depicted in type as such as a queen. She is the spotless bride of Christ.

Indeed we show forth God's grace in our weakness perfecting His strength.

Pro 31:10 Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price [is] far above rubies.

Pro 31:11 The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil.

Pro 31:12 She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.

Pro 31:13 She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands.

Pro 31:14 She is like the merchants' ships; she bringeth her food from afar.

Pro 31:15 She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens.

Pro 31:16 She considereth a field, and buyeth it: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard.

Pro 31:17 She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms.

Pro 31:18 She perceiveth that her merchandise [is] good: her candle goeth not out by night.

Pro 31:19 She layeth her hands to the spindle, and her hands hold the distaff.

Pro 31:20 She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy.

Pro 31:21 She is not afraid of the snow for her household: for all her household [are] clothed with scarlet.

Pro 31:22 She maketh herself coverings of tapestry; her clothing [is] silk and purple.

Pro 31:23 Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land.

Pro 31:24 She maketh fine linen, and selleth [it]; and delivereth girdles unto the merchant.

Pro 31:25 Strength and honour [are] her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come.

Pro 31:26 She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue [is] the law of kindness.

Pro 31:27 She looketh well to the ways of her household, and eateth not the bread of idleness.

Pro 31:28 Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband [also], and he praiseth her.

Pro 31:29 Many daughters have done virtuously, but thou excellest them all.

Pro 31:30 Favour [is] deceitful, and beauty [is] vain: [but] a woman [that] feareth the LORD, she shall be praised.

Pro 31:31 Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates.

:)

Teke
Dec 31st 2008, 03:10 PM
If a woman wanted something done, chances are her appeals would be unheard by any authority but if her husband brought something before them, then they would at least listen to him and the request would be more probable to come out favorably.


Not necessarily Rick. ;)
Did Sarah not save Abraham's hide at one time.....here are some more examples.

2Ki 8:2 And the woman arose, and did after the saying of the man of God: and she went with her household, and sojourned in the land of the Philistines seven years.

2Ki 8:3 And it came to pass at the seven years' end, that the woman returned out of the land of the Philistines: and she went forth to cry unto the king for her house and for her land.

__________________________

2Sa 14:2 And Joab sent to Tekoah, and fetched thence a wise woman, and said unto her, I pray thee, feign thyself to be a mourner, and put on now mourning apparel, and anoint not thyself with oil, but be as a woman that had a long time mourned for the dead:

2Sa 14:3 And come to the king, and speak on this manner unto him. So Joab put the words in her mouth.

____________________________

Luk 18:1 And he spake a parable unto them [to this end], that men ought always to pray, and not to faint;

Luk 18:2 Saying, There was in a city a judge, which feared not God, neither regarded man:

Luk 18:3 And there was a widow in that city; and she came unto him, saying, Avenge me of mine adversary.

Luk 18:4 And he would not for a while: but afterward he said within himself, Though I fear not God, nor regard man;

Luk 18:5 Yet because this widow troubleth me, I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.

Luk 18:6 And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge saith.
___________________________________

Never underestimate the power of a woman. Her strength is hid in God.

1Cr 7:4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.

Women are just not to usurp authority over man. 1Tim. 2:12 :)

RickH
Dec 31st 2008, 04:08 PM
Not necessarily Rick. ;)
Teke you are too awesome! Points well taken. Can I recant and say "More so than a woman in the U.S. today"? :D

Also, I agree with your points that Jesus or the scriptures never put a woman as an inferior human being.
God bless, thanks for the correction. I'll have to think things through more after posting what I read from a commentary.
-Rick

Teke
Dec 31st 2008, 04:45 PM
Women whether in the US or other countries can get things done if they want to, meaning if they see it necessary. Women just aren't as concerned with some things as men are, such as power over people. Hence our description as submissive.

Pro 15:1 A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger.

Personally I've done things my husband thought impossible according to his thinking. Such as change the mind of a judge or intercede in a conflict toward a peaceful resolution. But only when it seemed needful to do such things. And I never had to usurp anyone"s authority to get such things done. :)

RickH
Dec 31st 2008, 07:11 PM
My thinking was along the lines of a lot of the middle east, and other places where women are often oppressed and heavily punished for no reason such as how the Taliban works(ed) in Afghanistan. I can also think of times when God has put women in very powerful positions as well, Esther comes to mind real quick.
But anyhow.... I think I am taking us off course here, my apologies.
As for the original post, I am 100% with your thoughts.
Now back to regular lurking.
God bless and I hope you can keep encouraging our sister and others with your knowledge and faith!
God bless you!
Rick

Just_Another_Guy
Dec 31st 2008, 08:00 PM
So I'm reading 1 Corinthians and I ran over another chapter where Paul goes through the whole, "women were made for men so they should cover their heads...." etc. Theres a lot of passages like this. Theres even places in the bible where it says that the wife is the "weaker" partner.

I've heard pastors say that it's a cultural thing and shouldn't be taken literally, or that it's not that important to dwell on. and I've heard pastors try other ways to rationalize it out into divval, but I want to know, really, without people being afraid to offend anyone, what these passages (and thusly, the bible) is saying about what it means to be a woman and if I am somehow less than a man is?

the only passage I took solace in is where it says that we both come from each other (woman came from man originally, but now man is born of woman). The rest just sounds chauvanistic.

I think the basic message is that we all should be submissive before one another. Remember what Jesus stated to his disciples.

Matthew 20:24-28
But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Remember Paul also later went on in his epistles to state that there was neither male, nor female..greek..jew, etc..all were considered "sons of God." Submission and humility are attributes that all who are of the faith need to work on.

carissadawn
Dec 31st 2008, 08:30 PM
Recall what God said to Paul in 2 Cor. 12:9 "My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness."

In 1 Peter 1-7 we read the stunning call to contentment in Christian marriage, whether we live in the first century or the twenty first century. The dignity and modesty of woman, and her good conduct, have the power to call her husband to faith and devotion. Nor are husbands to take advantage of this superior conduct on the part of their wives, but are to reciprocate, indeed to give honor.
Peter's image of marriage is one of sacramental or holy union, not merely of legal contract. Contrary to the inheritance customs of the time, husband and wife are "heirs together of the grace of life" (v7). Failure to live "with understanding" with one's spouse even affects one's relationship with God (see Eph. 5:22-44).

Only to the biased is the point missed in scripture of woman"s important role. We women are not usually out front in the glory, but behind the scenes helping the glory unfold. Do they not play even an important role in Jesus ministry, being the first deaconess' of the church. The seven myrrh bearing women are who supported Jesus ministry and didn't draw back even at the crucifixion when the men ran away. Jesus honored such, with them being the first to see Him resurrected.

They give birth to man and raise him up for God's glory. In Jewish tradition, especially Hasidic Jews, a woman is honored greatly, like a queen. Even the church is depicted in type as such as a queen. She is the spotless bride of Christ.

Indeed we show forth God's grace in our weakness perfecting His strength.

Pro 31:10 Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price [is] far above rubies.

Pro 31:11 The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil.

Pro 31:12 She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.

Pro 31:13 She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands.

Pro 31:14 She is like the merchants' ships; she bringeth her food from afar.

Pro 31:15 She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens.

Pro 31:16 She considereth a field, and buyeth it: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard.

Pro 31:17 She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms.

Pro 31:18 She perceiveth that her merchandise [is] good: her candle goeth not out by night.

Pro 31:19 She layeth her hands to the spindle, and her hands hold the distaff.

Pro 31:20 She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy.

Pro 31:21 She is not afraid of the snow for her household: for all her household [are] clothed with scarlet.

Pro 31:22 She maketh herself coverings of tapestry; her clothing [is] silk and purple.

Pro 31:23 Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land.

Pro 31:24 She maketh fine linen, and selleth [it]; and delivereth girdles unto the merchant.

Pro 31:25 Strength and honour [are] her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come.

Pro 31:26 She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue [is] the law of kindness.

Pro 31:27 She looketh well to the ways of her household, and eateth not the bread of idleness.

Pro 31:28 Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband [also], and he praiseth her.

Pro 31:29 Many daughters have done virtuously, but thou excellest them all.

Pro 31:30 Favour [is] deceitful, and beauty [is] vain: [but] a woman [that] feareth the LORD, she shall be praised.

Pro 31:31 Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates.

:)

This post is wonderful. There is so much to learn from it!

In Dust and Ashes
Dec 31st 2008, 08:54 PM
Women just aren't as concerned with some things as men are, such as power over people.

Unless you're Hillary Clinton...


But seriously, I think a lot of stereotypes are getting thrown around here. Theres also a very definite conflict of cultural upbringing, but how much are we supposed to dismiss in the bible as being cultural? Should I be wearing a hat or shawl? Am I not supposed to talk in church?

Teke
Dec 31st 2008, 09:34 PM
Unless you're Hillary Clinton...


But seriously, I think a lot of stereotypes are getting thrown around here. Theres also a very definite conflict of cultural upbringing, but how much are we supposed to dismiss in the bible as being cultural? Should I be wearing a hat or shawl? Am I not supposed to talk in church?

My church is composed of diverse cultures. We don't all do the same things in church. For instance, Russian women traditionally wear a scarf on their head, and they have a certain manner they do so. Greek women, some cover their heads and some don't. Same with Americans, Lebanese etc. What they cover with and how they cover is unique to each person, as is if they don't cover their head at all.

If your just speaking of church etiquette, that depends on who teaches it to you. Cultural differences shouldn't be a problem or cause conflict in the Church.

In Dust and Ashes
Dec 31st 2008, 09:37 PM
I was talking about the places in 1st Corinthians that refer to women MUST cover their head and never speak in church because it's disgraceful if she does.

Teke
Dec 31st 2008, 09:40 PM
I was talking about the places in 1st Corinthians that refer to women MUST cover their head and never speak in church because it's disgraceful if she does.

Then the church at Corinth made this their rule. Since you likely don't go to church there, it wouldn't make a difference to you.
In my church, I cover my head because I choose to as I was led by the Lord to do so. And I do speak when I am reader.