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catlover
Dec 31st 2008, 12:51 AM
Do they actually die at the end of their time on earth or are they taken back to Heaven???

quiet dove
Dec 31st 2008, 12:56 AM
Do they actually die at the end of their time on earth or are they taken back to Heaven???

Both. They witness for 3.5 years, then are killed and lay dead for three days, in which time most are happy and buy presents for each other, then after three days they are resurrected and taken to heaven

Rev 11:3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth." ...5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner. 6 These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire. 7 When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9 Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves. 10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth. 11 Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. 12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them.

MacGyver
Dec 31st 2008, 01:36 AM
They actually die and then are raised from the dead. I believe that they will be Enoch and Elijah, who will be brought back body and soul just how they were taken up without suffering death, and then they will be killed by the antichrist and then they will rise from the dead.

Servant of David
Dec 31st 2008, 04:17 AM
They actually die and then are raised from the dead. I believe that they will be Enoch and Elijah, who will be brought back body and soul just how they were taken up without suffering death, and then they will be killed by the antichrist and then they will rise from the dead.

This is correct!

markdrums
Dec 31st 2008, 04:38 AM
Do they actually die at the end of their time on earth or are they taken back to Heaven???

I'm sure this will raise a few eyebrows for some people.... and of course there will be others who understand what is being said here.

Personally I believe Revelation is a very spiritual & symbolic book, and is not to be taken in a strict literal sense throught it's entirety.
That said,
I can't quite put this in my own words in a way to convey the context... so I'll quote Hank Hanegraaff. (Extra emphasis added on my behalf)
************************************************** ****

“And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies”(Rev. 11:3–5 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nkjv/Rev.%2011.3%E2%80%935)).

Revelation is an apocalypse. Not just in the sense of recording an unveiling but also in terms of its composition in what might best be described as a language system or matrix deeply embedded in the Old Testament. As such, to rightly interpret Revelation in general and identify the two witnesses of Revelation 11 in particular, it is crucial to have the background music of the Old Testament coursing through our minds. We must neither attempt to draw exact parallels between the apocalyptic imagery and their Old Testament referents nor attempt to press the language system of Revelation into a literalistic labyrinth such that the two witnesses literally turn their mouths into blowtorches.

First, the two witnesses are a metaphorical reference to Moses and Elijah. Old Testament jurisprudence mandated at least two witnesses to convict of a crime (Deut. 19:15 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nkjv/Deut.%2019.15)), and in this case the two witnesses accuse Israel of apostasy. The imagery also harkens back to a familiar Old Testament passage in which Zechariah sees two olive trees on the right and the left of a lampstand, which symbolize “the two who are anointed to serve the Lord of all the earth” (Zech. 4:14 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nkjv/Zech.%204.14)). The two witnesses in Zechariah were identified as Zerubbabel, the governor of Judah who returned to Jerusalem to lay the foundation of a second temple, and Joshua, the high priest commissioned to preside over its altar. In Revelation this imagery is invested in two witnesses who preside over the judgment and destruction of Jerusalem and the second temple. Like Moses, the witnesses have power to turn water into blood (Exod. 7). And like Elijah they have power to call down fire from heaven to consume their enemies and to shut up the sky so that it will not rain for three and a half years (1 Kings 17–18; Luke 4:25 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nkjv/Luke%204.25); James 5:17 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nkjv/James%205.17); Rev. 11:6 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nkjv/Rev.%2011.6)).

Furthermore, the mission of the two witnesses can rightly be identified with the person and work of Jesus Christ. Like Jesus they are sacrificial lambs. Indeed, their corpses unceremoniously litter the streets of Jerusalem—the very city in which their Lord was crucified (Rev. 11:8 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nkjv/Rev.%2011.8)). The city is figuratively called Sodom in that it epitomizes human wickedness and heavenly wrath, and Egypt in that it is emblematic of the slavery from which only Jesus Christ can emancipate. Their resurrection after three‐and‐a‐half days parallels the resurrection of Christ in much the same way that their three‐and‐a‐half‐year ministry mirrors that of Messiah.

Finally, the description of these witnesses as “clothed in sackcloth” (Rev. 11:3 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nkjv/Rev.%2011.3)) identifies them with the tradition of Hebrew prophets from Elijah to John the Baptist who wore sackcloth in mourning over Israel’s apostasy (e.g., 2 Kings 1:8 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nkjv/2%20Kings%201.8); Isa. 20:2 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nkjv/Isa.%2020.2); Matt. 3:4 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nkjv/Matt.%203.4)). In light of biblical imagery, then, the two witnesses are revealed not as two literal people, such as a future reincarnation of Moses and Elijah, but rather they
are literary characters in John’s apocalyptic narrative representing the entire line of Hebrew prophets in testifying against Israel and warning of soon‐coming judgment of God on Jerusalem. Ultimately, the two witnesses form a composite image of the Law and the Prophets culminating in the life, death, resurrection, and ascension of a Prophet and Priest who is the earnest of all who are His witnesses and who will reign with Him in a New Jerusalem wherein dwells righteousness.2 (http://www.equip.org/site/c.muI1LaMNJrE/b.4343531/k.DAD4/JAR002_Who_Are_The_Two_Witnessess_of_Revelation.ht m#2)

third hero
Dec 31st 2008, 06:48 AM
Personally, I believ that the two lampstands are two prophets who fulfill what they are suppose to do in Revelation 11. Unlike the popular opinion, I am of the opinion that the two prophets can not be identified until they begin their ministry. I reference the Elijah prophecy and John the Baptist being the one who fulfilled it. Like John the Baptist, these two prophets will not be advents of prophets of the past, but toe distinct people, with their own personalities and their own souls. The actions that they will be able to perform will be similar to the prophets of the past, but the similarities will end there.

Joe King
Dec 31st 2008, 01:45 PM
Personally, I believ that the two lampstands are two prophets who fulfill what they are suppose to do in Revelation 11. Unlike the popular opinion, I am of the opinion that the two prophets can not be identified until they begin their ministry. I reference the Elijah prophecy and John the Baptist being the one who fulfilled it. Like John the Baptist, these two prophets will not be advents of prophets of the past, but toe distinct people, with their own personalities and their own souls. The actions that they will be able to perform will be similar to the prophets of the past, but the similarities will end there.

I believe this as well.:pp

Servant of David
Dec 31st 2008, 09:40 PM
Rev 11:3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth." ...5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner.

This fire is the same fire that kills the spirit that it no long exists. Not a pleasant thought.

Prophecy Countdown
Dec 31st 2008, 11:42 PM
Do they actually die at the end of their time on earth or are they taken back to Heaven???

Hi Catlover, the two witnesses will be murdered by Satan, after they have completed 1260 days of prophesying. Verse 7.
They will be left dead without burial in the city of Jerusalem for 3 ˝ days until the spirit of God enters them. Verse 11.

The two are called by God. Verses 12.

The seventh angel sounds, ushering in of the resurrection of life and the everlasting kingdom of God on Earth. Verse 14.
The resurrection of life begins at the second advent of Christ. See results 1 Cor 15: 51 – 55.

So the two witnesses are to be resurrected along with God’s children at the second advent of the Christ to join in the wedding supper of Rev 19: 1 – 10.

PC:hug:

markdrums
Dec 31st 2008, 11:57 PM
Hi Catlover, the two witnesses will be murdered by Satan, after they have completed 1260 days of prophesying. Verse 7.
They will be left dead without burial in the city of Jerusalem for 3 ˝ days until the spirit of God enters them. Verse 11.

The two are called by God. Verses 12.

The seventh angel sounds, ushering in of the resurrection of life and the everlasting kingdom of God on Earth. Verse 14.
The resurrection of life begins at the second advent of Christ. See results 1 Cor 15: 51 – 55.

So the two witnesses are to be resurrected along with God’s children at the second advent of the Christ to join in the wedding supper of Rev 19: 1 – 10.

PC:hug:


The timeline of this scenario doesn't fit. Even if it's a "futurist" or "literalist" point of view.

The Two Witnesses are in Chap 11. This places them BEFORE the Beast / mark of the Beast, of Revelation

If they're supposedly literally dead for 3 1/2 days, & resurrected at the final judgment.... then the Beast of Revelation Chap 13 is ...... ??? Where?

The whole "seven year trib." I mean "3 1/2 year trib.".... (select time unit of choice) is missed in this case.

That's precisely why I gave the previous post, about not forcing Revelation (as well as the rest of the Bible) into a literal interpretation when it's not supposed to be literal.

However; That said, if I've misunderstood your post, please forgive me. But can you clarify that for me?

;)

Romber
Jan 1st 2009, 03:42 AM
They actually die and then are raised from the dead. I believe that they will be Enoch and Elijah, who will be brought back body and soul just how they were taken up without suffering death, and then they will be killed by the antichrist and then they will rise from the dead.


Would Enoch and Elijah come back at their aged state when they were taken up?

DurbanDude
Jan 2nd 2009, 08:17 AM
I beliieve they are the gentile church and the Jewish church. Both are witnesses for Jesus in Jerusalem at the end, and are persecuted and killed , even close to the second coming. If you read about the 144 000 and the Jews in Joel, and the protection of Israel in Rev 12, there is a strange protection over Israel at the end, for 3.5 years.

Most of us agree that all the unsaved have the mark of the beast when Jesus comes, why then are there thousands sealed towards the end of the tribulation (144 000 sealed means receiving the Holy Spirit). Why then are there thousands of Jews turning to God at the second coming and receiving the Holy Spirit (Joel 2)? It appears that just the Jews are given a longer time period to choose the mark, and some have delayed that decision because they are uncertain that the antichrist is their Messiah (this is speculation). What is certain is that some Jews get saved at the end, even though the beast has ruled for 3.5 years.

So this explains that there could be saved Christians in Israel openly preaching at the end, and the whole world hates them. Then they are finally killed, and the church is raptured at the second coming a few days later.

The symbolism of the lampstands and the olive trees matches Israel and the church.

Prophecy Countdown
Jan 3rd 2009, 01:58 PM
The timeline of this scenario doesn't fit. Even if it's a "futurist" or "literalist" point of view.

The Two Witnesses are in Chap 11. This places them BEFORE the Beast / mark of the Beast, of Revelation

If they're supposedly literally dead for 3 1/2 days, & resurrected at the final judgment.... then the Beast of Revelation Chap 13 is ...... ??? Where?

The whole "seven year trib." I mean "3 1/2 year trib.".... (select time unit of choice) is missed in this case.

That's precisely why I gave the previous post, about not forcing Revelation (as well as the rest of the Bible) into a literal interpretation when it's not supposed to be literal.

However; That said, if I've misunderstood your post, please forgive me. But can you clarify that for me?

;)

Hi mrkdrums, this story is about the two witnesses that are around at the same time as Satan.
I believe that most Bible student understand that the seventh trumpet ushers in the kingdom of God.

When they are killed after 1260 days and resurrected 3 ˝ days later at trumpet 7, simply means the end of Satan’s realm when God ushers in his kingdom. See Rev 11: 14. 1 Cor 15: 50 57.

It is an earthly aspect of the two witnesses starting witnessing 1263 ˝ days before trumpet 7 ending ‘2300 ereb boqer’ of Dan 8: 13 – 14‘time of the end’ and ‘last end’ vision, see Daniel 8: 17, 19. see Daniel 7: 27, 28


Markdrums
If they're supposedly literally dead for 3 1/2 days, & resurrected at the final judgment.... then the Beast of Revelation Chap 13 is ...... ??? Where? Where is the beast? At trumpet 7 Rev 11: 15 the beast is being or soon to be slain, see Daniel 7: 11. Rev 19: 20 the other beasts are allowed to live a little longer, see Daniel 7: 12 to be killed after the beast, see Rev 19: 21.
That is the chronology


Markdrums
The whole "seven year trib." I mean "3 1/2 year trib.".... (select time unit of choice) is missed in this case.
The tribulation is 1335 days see Daniel 12: 12 which ends at trumpet 7 where also the 2300 ereb boqer, time of the end and last end finish and so does the time of the Gentiles 42 months of Rev 11: 2 when they tread underfoot the outer court, see Rev 11: 2. “But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.”


Markdrums
That's precisely why I gave the previous post, about not forcing Revelation (as well as the rest of the Bible) into a literal interpretation when it's not supposed to be literal.
The two witnesses I believe at present to be Elijah and Moses and are certainly not allegorical. As far as ‘forcing Revelation’ is concerned it’s a matter of reading God’s word and accepting it in good faith or not believing it and making it mythical.


Markdrums
However; That said, if I've misunderstood your post, please forgive me. But can you clarify that for me?



Catlover quote. "What happens to the 2 witnesses"
“Do they actually die at the end of their time on earth or are they taken back to Heaven???”
I kept my answer to within catlover’s question, and did not want to deviate from it out of respect for catlover.
Dear markdrums we can agree to disagree and no apology is necessary as you have been most respectful to me and I thank you.:hug:

My previous statements in blue Bible backup in black.

PC "Hi Catlover, the two witnesses will be murdered by Satan, after they have completed 1260 days of prophesying. Verse 7." Revelation 11: 7.And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.


PC "They will be left dead without burial in the city of Jerusalem for 3 ˝ days until the spirit of God enters them. Verse 11." Revelation 11: 11. And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.


PC "The two are called by God. Verses 12. " Revelation 11: 12. And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.


PC "The seventh angel sounds, ushering in of the resurrection of life and the everlasting kingdom of God on Earth. Verse 14." Revelation11: 14.And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


PC "The resurrection of life begins at the second advent of Christ. See results 1 Cor 15: 51 – 55."1 Cor 15: 51 – 57. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56. The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.


PC"So the two witnesses are to be resurrected along with God’s children at the second advent of the Christ to join in the wedding supper of Rev 19: 1 – 10."
PC;).

MacGyver
Jan 3rd 2009, 05:36 PM
Would Enoch and Elijah come back at their aged state when they were taken up?I believe so, because I don't believe that they would be reborn and then live up until adulthood all over again, that would be reincarnation, which is not sound Christianity. I believe that their bodies would probably be the same age as when they were taken into Heaven, and that their bodies were prevented from aging though not glorified since they will be glorified after they rise from the dead.

third hero
Jan 3rd 2009, 06:50 PM
I believe so, because I don't believe that they would be reborn and then live up until adulthood all over again, that would be reincarnation, which is not sound Christianity. I believe that their bodies would probably be the same age as when they were taken into Heaven, and that their bodies were prevented from aging though not glorified since they will be glorified after they rise from the dead.

You know, if Enoch and Elijah end up coming back to earth, which I seriously doubt, it would introduce reincarnation or at least reanimation to Christianity. Although it would not be the first example. Another would be the reincarnation or reanimation of the Beast, as Revelation 17 mentions that the Beast is one who lived, died once, and escapes the bottomless pit to go into perdition. Sounds like the same principle.

Although I do not agree that the two prophets willl be Elijah and Enoch, I do beleive that whoever becomes the Beast will have the spirit of one of the seven dead kings who will escape the Abyss only to be hurled into the Lake some seven plus years later.

MacGyver
Jan 4th 2009, 10:15 PM
You know, if Enoch and Elijah end up coming back to earth, which I seriously doubt, it would introduce reincarnation or at least reanimation to Christianity. Although it would not be the first example. Another would be the reincarnation or reanimation of the Beast, as Revelation 17 mentions that the Beast is one who lived, died once, and escapes the bottomless pit to go into perdition. Sounds like the same principle.

Although I do not agree that the two prophets willl be Elijah and Enoch, I do beleive that whoever becomes the Beast will have the spirit of one of the seven dead kings who will escape the Abyss only to be hurled into the Lake some seven plus years later.The beast in Rev. 17 is the Devil, which is spiritual not carnal, so that would eliminate reincarnation. As St. Andrew of Caesarea said, "the Devil was killed by the Cross of Christ, but, he will live again at the end, effecting denial of salvation through the deceit of the antichrist in signs and wonders."

Pardon my limitations, but I don't understand what you mean by "it would introduce reincarnation or at least reanimation to Christianity." When Enoch and Elijah come back with the same bodies they left this world in, that is not reincarnation. But if their souls were born into another body, that would be reincarnation. Otherwise there is nothing contrary to Christian doctrine for them to come back to earth body and soul just the way they left.

third hero
Jan 5th 2009, 06:19 AM
The beast in Rev. 17 is the Devil, which is spiritual not carnal, so that would eliminate reincarnation. As St. Andrew of Caesarea said, "the Devil was killed by the Cross of Christ, but, he will live again at the end, effecting denial of salvation through the deceit of the antichrist in signs and wonders."

Pardon my limitations, but I don't understand what you mean by "it would introduce reincarnation or at least reanimation to Christianity." When Enoch and Elijah come back with the same bodies they left this world in, that is not reincarnation. But if their souls were born into another body, that would be reincarnation. Otherwise there is nothing contrary to Christian doctrine for them to come back to earth body and soul just the way they left.

In hopes to not derail this thread, I only offer this brief explanation. The Beast in Revelation 17 is the same beast of Revelation 13. The fact that Satan is called a Dragon in Revelation 12, and the fact that the Dragon, Satan gives his authority and power to the Beast in Revelation 13:2, tells me that the Beast is not the devil, but the man of sin, the nation that he rules, and the city which will be the capital of his empire.

I do not believe that Enoch and Elijah's original earthly bodies can have their souls reinserted, since their bodies would be at least over 2300 years old. The only way they could be brought back to the earth to become the two witnesses is if they are reincarnated.

My parallel is that the man of sin, aka the Beast, will have come up from the abyss, as Revelation 17 tells us. He could not inhabit his original body, since it would have been destroyed. He would have to either be reincarnated, or a possessing spirit, posessing someone and using their body to do his will.

Now, I do not believe in reincarnation at all. With that in mind, I do not believe that the two prophets wil be Elijah and Enoch, Moses, or any other historical human that has walked the earth. I believe that the two prophets will be individuals who will be chosen to fulfill their duties. I also believe that the Beast will not be reincarnated. I believe that the spirit of the human who fit the description found in Chapter 17 will posess another person, who, the person posessed, will give himself as a willing vessel for the Beast. Satan can not create life, and because of that, he can not bring anyone to life, or preserve their human body. God, however, can create life, and He does not have to reuse a historical human in order to have their effects made manifest. The power of the prophets will not be theirs, but God's. Moses did not do anything, God did. Elijah did not do anything to shut up the sky other than to ask of the Lord to do it. The Lord did the shutting, and all of the other wonders that both Elijah and Moses are accredited for. He does not need to bring others back fro mthe dead to fulfill His purpose. Remember, this would not be the first time that He used other people to fulfil prophecies, as John the baptist is the "Elijah" who was to make straight the path of the Lord.

MacGyver
Jan 5th 2009, 02:07 PM
I do not believe that Enoch and Elijah's original earthly bodies can have their souls reinserted, since their bodies would be at least over 2300 years old. The only way they could be brought back to the earth to become the two witnesses is if they are reincarnated.
Despite the differences we have about the beast of Rev. 17, we can resolve that on another thread. But as for the quote above it is clear that you misunderstand the details of the position that I have concerning Enoch and Elijah. Their souls have never left their bodies so there is no reinserting them back. Their souls and bodies have been together and never departed from one another. Their body and soul are still together even as we speak. Their bodies have not aged due to them being in Heaven which preserves them. So for them to come back to earth, all that has to happen is for them to be brought down from Heaven by God.

I have no problems with people disagreeing with my position of the 2 witnesses but I do want to make clear what my position is so no one misunderstands where I am coming from.

Joe King
Jan 14th 2009, 05:42 AM
There is some merit to the "symbolism" of the witnesses or "Elijah and Enoch" returning. However, the LORD is unchanging. He has sent men to prophecy during times of trouble in the past and I believe he will do this in the future. I believe Elijah and Enoch and even Moses and John the Baptist would be the first to tell us that they were merely just servants of the LORD. Anyone can be used by God. There is no criteria to be a witness of the LORD. It most likely will be the humblest of servants looked down on by society. A sheperd perhaps...