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VerticalReality
Dec 31st 2008, 04:35 AM
There is a very popular verse of Scripture that has a very significant translational difference when comparing the King James Version and NIV versions to the New King James and NASB versions.

Compare the following . . .



Romans 12:3 (KJV)
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.




Romans 12:3 (NKJV)
For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.




Romans 12:3 (NIV)
For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.




Romans 12:3 (NASB)
For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.


In my opinion there is a huge interpretive difference between "a" measure of faith compared to "the" measure of faith.

To say that God gives "a" measure of faith implies that He is giving varying amounts of faith to different people.

To say that God gives "the" measure of faith is implying that there is a set level of faith that God gives all His people without variance.

To me it would seem that using "the" would be the more appropriate translation. Why would God need to give people some varied amount of faith when even the tiniest amount of faith (the size of a mustard seed) can move mountains? The point of the mustard seed example is that any faith is sufficient for any task no matter how big or small. All one has to do is believe.

Anyone else have any insight here they would like to share?

markdrums
Dec 31st 2008, 04:56 AM
There is a very popular verse of Scripture that has a very significant translational difference when comparing the King James Version and NIV versions to the New King James and NASB versions.

Compare the following . . .









In my opinion there is a huge interpretive difference between "a" measure of faith compared to "the" measure of faith.

To say that God gives "a" measure of faith implies that He is giving varying amounts of faith to different people.

To say that God gives "the" measure of faith is implying that there is a set level of faith that God gives all His people without variance.

To me it would seem that using "the" would be the more appropriate translation. Why would God need to give people some varied amount of faith when even the tiniest amount of faith (the size of a mustard seed) can move mountains? The point of the mustard seed example is that any faith is sufficient for any task no matter how big or small. All one has to do is believe.

Anyone else have any insight here they would like to share?


I have to agree with you.
THE difference between the two examples; "the" and "a" is more than just a couple letters of the alphabet. *Pun definitely intended! :)

The same emphasis can be gained or lost, with sooooo many other passages as well.
One, for instance:
Gal 3:29 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Gal&c=3&v=29&t=KJV#comm/29) And if ye Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

It doesn't say "a" promise..... it says, THE promise. The SAME promise made to Abraham. (BIG difference!!)

I'm sure many more could be brought up as examples, but we all get the idea.

Also- the same problem arises when an extra word is added to scripture, such is the case with the Jehova's Wittnesses... Their "New World Translation" changes the entire context of John 1:1. (which in the CHRISTIAN BIBLE reads: ) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

NOW look at the NWT version:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was [B]a god."

The entire deity of Christ is thrown out with a single addition of one letter.
CRAZY!!!

jrick
Dec 31st 2008, 05:41 AM
Romans 12:3 (NIV)
For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you. You could make the argument that even though the word "the" is used in the NIV, that God gives out varying amounts of faith to each individual.

Try reading it again, this time without the emphasis:


Romans 12:3 (NIV)
For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you. Just because God has given that measure of faith to you does not necessarily mean that others receive the same, even though it may still be true faith. I have not done much research into it, but this interpretation seems correct. Even though a new Christian and an older Christian may both have saving faith, the older Christian's faith will almost always be stronger than the other, because he (or she) has had much more time to walk with the Lord and study the God's word.

Consider 1 John 2, where John writes about three different types of Christians: little children, young men, and fathers.

crossnote
Dec 31st 2008, 06:08 AM
It is not our faith that moves mountains but it is the object of our faith...Jesus Christ. That is why the weakest look for help can bring a mighty army to ones aid.

kenrank
Dec 31st 2008, 06:20 AM
Anyone else have any insight here they would like to share?

I think it may be "a" measure of faith. Just to look at us would make it seem clear that some need more than others. Plus, we also have the gift of faith to take into consideration.

1 Cor. 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; (9) To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; (10) To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

Just some random thoughts.
Peace.
Ken

Walstib
Dec 31st 2008, 04:34 PM
I think it similar to the Holy Spirit.

We can't have lesser or greater amounts of a person, He is there or not there.

We can be influenced by or pay attention to Him in varying amounts, but the quantity *for lack of a better word* remains the same.

I would say faith is the same.

One can do nothing, or great things with the same measure of faith. Great faith I don't think is a litteral amount of faith but a reflection of how much the person lets themselves be filled with their faith and emptied their of doubt.

First thoughts,
Joe

Lars777
Dec 31st 2008, 07:23 PM
I myself do not think that wording it with a measure of faith implies varying amounts......not at all.

Im working in a soup kitchen and the cook tells me to just put a measure of soup in the bowl when the people come up to the counter.....my first thought would not be.....does he mean varying amounts?

We as humans have all been dealt a measure of muscle in our bodies....no one has any more muscle than another we all have the exact amount.

But on the outside it would appear that many people have much more muscle.

Like when you view a guy that is a body builder first thought is he has way more muscle than I do......but that is not true.

The bodybuilder has just taken the same measure of muscle that we all have and exercised it.

Now our faith works the very same way in that we are all dealt a measure of faith.....you will never have any more faith than you do right now.....just like your muscles in your body.....you will never have more muscle.

But when you exercise that faith just like the above poster stated it will grow just like the muscle in your body.

So we can say look at that guy......he has great muscles......or we can look at that person and say that guy has great faith.......the amount has never changed in either case.....what has changed is one is exercising there faith and one is not........one is exercising there muscles and one is not.

To me the key word in that Scripture is measure.....for when we measure something it means an exact amount....and most likley the measured amount of faith that is dealt to each and everyone of us is the size of a mustard seed.

What you do with that amount is now up to you......but that measured amount is all you will ever need....you will not ever get anymore.....but what you do have can grow and grow and grow and there is no limit.

But we need to keep in mind one thing.....we all know what happens to muscle when it is not used.....there is a medical term I just cannot think of it but if muscle is not used it becomes limp.....atrophy I believe its called.

Well that also can happen to faith if not exercised....it will become usless over time just like muscle.

Its still there just like the limp muscle in your body but its going to take a lot of work to get it functioning again.

Partaker of Christ
Dec 31st 2008, 09:45 PM
Personally I think it is a measure of faith. The reason is why put 'measure'?
Why not just say according to the faith given

Just a few more translations:

Rom 12:3
(ALT) For I say, through the grace, the one having been given to me, to every [one] being among you*, stop thinking too highly of yourselves beyond what it is necessary to be thinking, _but_ be thinking [so as] to be thinking sensibly, to each as God apportioned a measure of faith.

(ASV) For I say, through the grace that was given me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think as to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to each man a measure of faith.

(Darby) For I say, through the grace which has been given to me, to every one that is among you, not to have high thoughts above what he should think; but to think so as to be wise, as God has dealt to each a measure of faith.

(EMTV) For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself too highly, beyond what you should think, but to think soberly, as God has imparted to each one a measure of faith.

(ESV) For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.

(KJV) For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

(LITV) For through the grace which is given to me, I say to everyone being among you, not to have high thoughts beyond what is right to think. But set your mind to be right-minded, even as God divided a measure of faith to each.

(NASB) For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

(RV) For I say, through the grace that was given me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but so to think as to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to each man a measure of faith.

(YLT) For I say, through the grace that was given to me, to every one who is among you, not to think above what it behoveth to think; but to think so as to think wisely, as to each God did deal a measure of faith,

moonglow
Dec 31st 2008, 09:50 PM
It wouldn't affect my understanding of that verse at all actually if 'a' or 'the' was used.

I guess what I mean is I don't see it as a big deal.


God bless

Psalms Fan
Jan 1st 2009, 06:58 AM
Whether the translation has "a" or "the", they're saying the exact same thing. All the ones that have "a" are worded a particular way, and all the ones that have "the" are worded a particular way.

"God has given each one a measure of faith"
"According to the measure of faith given by God"

There is no difference. It's just a matter of the syntax of the given translation.

Sort of like the following example:

"I asked God for a greater measure of faith, and I can't wait to get it."
"I can't wait for God to give me the greater measure of faith that I asked for."

Different syntax, but same exact meaning.

VerticalReality
Jan 1st 2009, 05:29 PM
Whether the translation has "a" or "the", they're saying the exact same thing. All the ones that have "a" are worded a particular way, and all the ones that have "the" are worded a particular way.

"God has given each one a measure of faith"
"According to the measure of faith given by God"

There is no difference. It's just a matter of the syntax of the given translation.

Sort of like the following example:

"I asked God for a greater measure of faith, and I can't wait to get it."
"I can't wait for God to give me the greater measure of faith that I asked for."

Different syntax, but same exact meaning.

I can see what you are saying when comparing the NKJV to the NIV. However, the King James version does not allow the same thing. It is saying something very different.