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mikebr
Dec 31st 2008, 03:00 PM
Matthew 27:52 The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.


At least one commentary says that this passage should be ignored. What do you believe is going on here?

It seems to me that this would be a bad thing. Why would "holy people" be resurrected and why isn't this more talked about?

Walstib
Dec 31st 2008, 03:06 PM
Harvest.

Firstfruits with Mr. Firstfruit Himself.

Main gathering later.

Gleanings to follow.

Why is it not more talked about? My first though would be the tendency for the flesh to be elitist. Wanting everyone to be given the same wages rather than accepting the ones hired in the last hour be given the same wage.

Peace,
Joe

Butch5
Dec 31st 2008, 03:13 PM
Matthew 27:52 The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.


At least one commentary says that this passage should be ignored. What do you believe is going on here?

It seems to me that this would be a bad thing. Why would "holy people" be resurrected and why isn't this more talked about?

I take it for what it says, they came out of the graves. Just as Lazarus come out. I would not consider this to be a resurrection in the sense of receiving eternal life. It is my belief (no Scriptural support) that they lived and then later died again. I think it was basically a sign from God.

drew
Dec 31st 2008, 05:03 PM
What do you believe is going on here?
I do not believe that these people were resurrected in the sense that Jesus was - given a transformed and incorruptible body. I believe that the following text from 1 Corinthians 15 rules out the possibility that these people were given resurrection bodies:

22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

So I think these people were just like Lazarus - their death was "reversed" but they died again at some point in the future.

ross3421
Dec 31st 2008, 05:12 PM
Matthew 27:52 The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.


At least one commentary says that this passage should be ignored. What do you believe is going on here?

It seems to me that this would be a bad thing. Why would "holy people" be resurrected and why isn't this more talked about?

These are the resurrected saved thoughout the ages which have died before Christ on the cross. Those saved after his death will be resurrected at his second coming.

drew
Dec 31st 2008, 05:26 PM
These are the resurrected saved thoughout the ages which have died before Christ on the cross. Those saved after his death will be resurrected at his second coming.
I assume that you must believe that these people are presently in heaven, given that we have no 2000 year olds walking around. How do you reconcile your position with the 1 Corinthians 15 text which, to me, seems clear that Jesus is the only person who has been given a resurrection body:

22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Walstib
Dec 31st 2008, 05:59 PM
I assume that you must believe that these people are presently in heaven, given that we have no 2000 year olds walking around. How do you reconcile your position with the 1 Corinthians 15 text which, to me, seems clear that Jesus is the only person who has been given a resurrection body:

22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23but each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Hi Drew,

Well possible I guess. What it makes me think of what kind of body Moses and Elijah had on the mountain.?. Mat 17. Firstfuits is a singular noun but speaks to a plural amount in many situations.

Also you would think they would have been great witnesses spoken of during the time of acts if they were now physically alive and walking around. Maybe they were? That they were seen and then I think inferred not seen anymore, I tend to think it was more than a Lazarus type.

How one sees sleeping in Christ would come into this I think. That and how one interprets Revelations. Not my specialty by any means.

Peace,
Joe

RogerW
Dec 31st 2008, 08:14 PM
Matthew 27:52 The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

At least one commentary says that this passage should be ignored. What do you believe is going on here?

It seems to me that this would be a bad thing. Why would "holy people" be resurrected and why isn't this more talked about?

Greetings Mike,

I certainly don't agree that it should simply be ignored! I've tossed around a couple of thoughts on this from time to time. I believe these were the OT saints, who died in faith without having received the promise (Heb. 11:13). They could not go immediately to heaven spiritually upon death because Christ had not yet come to lead captivity captive (Eph 4:8) when He defeated death. They were still held captive by death and the grave (hell), until Christ goes there to prepare a place for them and because no man has ascended into heaven prior to Christ (Jo 3:13).

Therefore, I see these saints resurrected as the OT saints dying, and waiting for the fulfillment of the promise of His coming to free them. In this I concluded the resurrection was not bodily, but spiritual and the holy city, Jerusalem that comes down from heaven in the fullness of tme.

I remain convinced that these saints being resurrected are indeed those from the OT who had died in faith waiting for the promise. But now I believe the resurrection is not spiritual at all, but bodily, just as the text says it was. This resurrection of these saints, appearing in the holy city, Jerusalem on earth, is evidence that Christ will keep His promise to resurrect all who die in Him. This too serves to convince the Jews that Jesus is indeed the long-awaited, promised Messiah. The resurrection is like that of Lazarus. They have all long ago died once again, but since Christ was victorious over death and the grave they went Spiritually to be with the Lord, while their bodies once again returned to the earth.

I too have wondered why this is not spoken of more in Scripture, and mentioned only by Matthew. But Lazarus was resurrected from the dead also, and only John records it. So I don't think we can argue from silence.

Blessings,
RW

Psalms Fan
Dec 31st 2008, 08:20 PM
I think that it IS talked about more. I just think that people tend not to associate these two passages together.

Dan 12:1-2 1 ďAt that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (ESV)

I believe that the reference to Michael is figurative, referring to Christ (no, I don't believe that Michael and Jesus are the same person. Michael is a created angel and Jesus is the uncreated Creator and God). Different places in scripture talk about the resurrection, but in every other place it says that ALL people will be raised. It was around this time that Christ gave "deliverance" from sin to Israel. Also, it was around this time that Israel went through their greatest trouble up to that point (and it was pretty horrific). And it was around this time that "many" were raised from the dead.

Daniel foretells a resurrection of many, and the gospels recount a resurrection of many. We now await the resurrection of all.

As to whether or not they died again, if the passage in Daniel is indeed a prophecy about the mass resurrection after Jesus' death, then they would not have died again, since they were raised to "everlasting life".

RogerW
Dec 31st 2008, 08:28 PM
I think that it IS talked about more. I just think that people tend not to associate these two passages together.

Dan 12:1-2 1 ďAt that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (ESV)

I believe that the reference to Michael is figurative, referring to Christ (no, I don't believe that Michael and Jesus are the same person. Michael is a created angel and Jesus is the uncreated Creator and God). Different places in scripture talk about the resurrection, but in every other place it says that ALL people will be raised. It was around this time that Christ gave "deliverance" from sin to Israel. Also, it was around this time that Israel went through their greatest trouble up to that point (and it was pretty horrific). And it was around this time that "many" were raised from the dead.

Daniel foretells a resurrection of many, and the gospels recount a resurrection of many. We now await the resurrection of all.

As to whether or not they died again, if the passage in Daniel is indeed a prophecy about the mass resurrection after Jesus' death, then they would not have died again, since they were raised to "everlasting life".

That's a good point Psalms Fan. I had not considered this passage from Daniel. Now I have returned to wondering if the resurrection could indeed be spiritual, and the holy city, Jerusalem that comes down from heaven. Were the many they appeared to inhabitants of heaven?

Btw - welcome to the community!

Many Blessings,
RW

Psalms Fan
Dec 31st 2008, 09:24 PM
That's a good point Psalms Fan. I had not considered this passage from Daniel. Now I have returned to wondering if the resurrection could indeed be spiritual, and the holy city, Jerusalem that comes down from heaven. Were the many they appeared to inhabitants of heaven?

Btw - welcome to the community!

Many Blessings,
RW

When you say that you wonder if the resurrection could be spiritual, are you referring to the one in Daniel, or the general resurrection when all are raised? If you're referring to the general resurrection (Rev 20 and others), I don't think so. Christ's resurrection was physical, therefore ours will be as well.

But I do believe that we do experience a spiritual resurrection. When we're born again, our spirit is raised from the dead. I believe that in that regard we experience a spiritual resurrection. But I also believe that the Scriptures plainly teach us that we will experience a physical resurrection as well.

I also believe that the Jerusalem that comes down from heaven is the church, and not an actual city (with Revelation contrasting the "city" of Babylon, representing Satan's kingdom, against the "city" of Jerusalem, representing God's kingdom. I don't believe that either of those cities in Revelation is an actual city). I believe that if you're a christian, then you are part of the New Jerusalem.

RogerW
Dec 31st 2008, 10:03 PM
When you say that you wonder if the resurrection could be spiritual, are you referring to the one in Daniel, or the general resurrection when all are raised? If you're referring to the general resurrection (Rev 20 and others), I don't think so. Christ's resurrection was physical, therefore ours will be as well.

I've a bit of a problem with the Daniel passage because it has both believers and unbelievers being resurrected. If it is the resurrection in the fullness of time, then it would be the physical resurrection of our bodies, and that includes All not many. If it is a spiritual resurrection with the OT saints going to heaven spiritually, then it could be at the beginning of the NT church era.

Is Daniel telling us the fate of many (the Jews) in the fullness of time, and at the Judgment Day? The OT saints who have died in faith being spiritually resurrected at the beginning of the NT era, or after the cross, with the rest resurrected bodily in the end of the age? Verse 13 shows us that Daniel will be raised bodily for his inheritance at the end of days.



But I do believe that we do experience a spiritual resurrection. When we're born again, our spirit is raised from the dead. I believe that in that regard we experience a spiritual resurrection. But I also believe that the Scriptures plainly teach us that we will experience a physical resurrection as well.

I agree! Since no man could go into heaven before Christ, the OT saints, who died in faith will also be spiritually resurrected to heaven after Christ defeats death and frees them from the grave. Our physical resurrection is bodily.



I also believe that the Jerusalem that comes down from heaven is the church, and not an actual city (with Revelation contrasting the "city" of Babylon, representing Satan's kingdom, against the "city" of Jerusalem, representing God's kingdom. I don't believe that either of those cities in Revelation is an actual city). I believe that if you're a christian, then you are part of the New Jerusalem.

Again, I agree!

Many Blessings,
RW