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markedward
Dec 31st 2008, 08:46 PM
There's quite a few newer members posting recently (hello all!), and being the person I am, I like to know something about the people I read the posts of or converse with in threads. That being said, I want to get as much feedback on the following verses. As per rules, and personal restraints, I won't be elaborating much on my own beliefs on these verses; I simply want to get a general idea of how people on the boards interpret these, especially in the light that most of the forum users could be called "futurists".

Think of this as a poll, but you can be elaborate with your responses, and the poll choices are as numerous as the number of you. If you're a new user, I very much want your input; but if you're an older user, you're just as welcome to jump in.

Please restrict yourself to one post when explaining what you believe about the verses. You can post as much as you want, and make as many posts as you want discussion-wise, but please, when/if you make a post about the following verses, keep it to one post, not multiple posts in a row.
_____________

Matthew 10:23 "When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes."

Matthew 16:27-28 "For the Son of Man is about to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

Matthew 24:34 "Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place."

Luke 21:22 "... for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written."

Luke 21:28 "Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

Acts 2:16-17 "But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel, '"And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams"'" [Used as a defense for why Peter and the apostles were speaking in tongues on that very day.]

Romans 13:11-12 Besides this you know the time, that the hour has come for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. The night is far gone; the day is at hand.

1 Corinthians 7:29 This is what I mean, brothers: the appointed time has grown very short.

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.

Hebrews 1:1-2 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

Hebrews 9:26 But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Hebrews 10:37 For, "Yet a little while, and the coming one will come and will not delay."

James 5:1-3 Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver have corroded, and their corrosion will be evidence against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasure in the last days.

James 5:7-8 Be patient, therefore, brothers, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, being patient about it, until it receives the early and the late rains. You also, be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.

1 Peter 1:20 He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you.

1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is at hand...

1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour.

Revelation 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place.

Revelation 1:3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.

Revelation 1:19 Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are about to take place after this.

Revelation 3:11 I am coming soon.

Revelation 22:6 And he said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true. And the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place."

Revelation 22:7 "And behold, I am coming soon. Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book."

Revelation 22:10 And he said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near."

Revelation 22:12 "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done."

Revelation 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, "Surely I am coming soon." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!

[Sidenote: These are from a listing of verses I have written down. The listing is much more extensive than this, but to save space and time for each of us, I cut it down to just these.]

Psalms Fan
Dec 31st 2008, 10:10 PM
There's quite a few newer members posting recently (hello all!), and being the person I am, I like to know something about the people I read the posts of or converse with in threads. That being said, I want to get as much feedback on the following verses. As per rules, and personal restraints, I won't be elaborating much on my own beliefs on these verses; I simply want to get a general idea of how people on the boards interpret these, especially in the light that most of the forum users could be called "futurists".

Think of this as a poll, but you can be elaborate with your responses, and the poll choices are as numerous as the number of you. If you're a new user, I very much want your input; but if you're an older user, you're just as welcome to jump in.

Please restrict yourself to one post when explaining what you believe about the verses. You can post as much as you want, and make as many posts as you want discussion-wise, but please, when/if you make a post about the following verses, keep it to one post, not multiple posts in a row.
_____________

Matthew 10:23 "When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes."

Matthew 16:27-28 "For the Son of Man is about to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

Matthew 24:34 "Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place."

Luke 21:22 "... for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written."

Luke 21:28 "Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

Acts 2:16-17 "But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel, '"And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams"'" [Used as a defense for why Peter and the apostles were speaking in tongues on that very day.]

Romans 13:11-12 Besides this you know the time, that the hour has come for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. The night is far gone; the day is at hand.

1 Corinthians 7:29 This is what I mean, brothers: the appointed time has grown very short.

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.

Hebrews 1:1-2 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

Hebrews 9:26 But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Hebrews 10:37 For, "Yet a little while, and the coming one will come and will not delay."

James 5:1-3 Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver have corroded, and their corrosion will be evidence against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasure in the last days.

James 5:7-8 Be patient, therefore, brothers, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, being patient about it, until it receives the early and the late rains. You also, be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.

1 Peter 1:20 He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you.

1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is at hand...

1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour.

Revelation 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place.

Revelation 1:3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.

Revelation 1:19 Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are about to take place after this.

Revelation 3:11 I am coming soon.

Revelation 22:6 And he said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true. And the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place."

Revelation 22:7 "And behold, I am coming soon. Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book."

Revelation 22:10 And he said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near."

Revelation 22:12 "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done."

Revelation 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, "Surely I am coming soon." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!

[Sidenote: These are from a listing of verses I have written down. The listing is much more extensive than this, but to save space and time for each of us, I cut it down to just these.]


Hello, Markedward. This is certainly not a short list, and I doubt that I'll touch on each of these. What I'll do first is explain why I see things in general the way I do, and then I'll touch on some of the verses you mentioned.

Much of how I read many NT passages comes from how I read Dan 7, specifically the part about the Son of Man coming on the clouds.

Dan 7:13
I saw in the night visions,
and behold, with the clouds of heaven
there came one like a son of man,
and he came to the Ancient of Days
and was presented before him. (ESV)

Here, the Son of Man is coming, not FROM the Ancient of Days, but TO Him. Christ is coming to the Father. And for what purpose?

Dan 7:14
And to him was given dominion
and glory and a kingdom,
that all peoples, nations, and languages
should serve him;
his dominion is an everlasting dominion,
which shall not pass away,
and his kingdom one
that shall not be destroyed.

Christ came to the Father to be given dominion, glory and a kingdom. In this passage, Christ is not coming from Heaven to earth. Rather, He is coming from earth to Heaven.

I believe that verse 13 (for the most part) happened when Christ ascended into Heaven (he was taken up in the clouds). But the rest of this happens once Christ is in Heaven, and not on the way up. And since it is happening in Heaven, it is not restricted by time (just as in Psalm 2 "You are my son, today I have begotten you". When is the "today" when the Father begets the Son? It has ALWAYS been "today" in eternity).

So when the NT refers to the "Son of Man coming in the clouds", it is not meaning that Christ is coming back to earth. Rather, it is a manifestation of his dominion, glory, and kingdom over those who oppose Him.

But I don't believe that it's restricted to one event, necessarily. Jesus quoted it with reference to the destruction of the temple. I find that preterists go wrong when they assume that any time the NT has the terminology "Son of Man coming in the clouds", it refers to the same event, as if that could only have one fulfillment in time.

Revelation uses the terminology in the first chapter. For that reason, preterists link it to the first century destruction of the temple. But I don't think that is necessary.

Matt 10:23 Probably referring to 70AD, when Jesus' coming to the Father was manifest to the Judeans who rejected Him and put Him to death.

Matt 16:27-28 As for the second verse, I think it refers to something in their future far enough away where many of them would die, but near enough where some would still be alive. If it were the transfiguration, it wouldn't make much sense for Him to say "some of you won't die this week". I believe it refers to 70AD. As for verse 27, I don't have a complete theology for how judgement works out in this age. Hebrews says "it is appointed for men to die once, and then the judgement". So it might refer to our judgement after we die, before Christ returns.

Matt 24:34 I believe that the entire Olivet Discourse (in all three accounts) is referring solely to the destruction of the temple by the Romans in the first century. "This generation" is the generation that Jesus gave the "woes" to in chapter 23 of Matt, the generation living at that time.

Acts 2:16-17 I believe that that day completely fulfilled what Joel prophesied centuries before that. The "last days" were at hand. The Spirit came in full. I don't believe that the Scriptures teach an "end times outpouring of the Spirit". He came in full on the day of Pentacost.

Rom 13:11-12 It could refer to a lot of things. To be sure, the end is nearer with every second that goes by, so maybe he meant that Christ's return draws nearer all the time. It might refer to the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem, since Jews were some of the major persecutors of Christians for multiple decades in the first century. It might refer to approaching death, when we go to be with Christ (assuming that we go to be with Christ after death).

For the passages about "the end of the ages", I believe that it refers to the time when Christ was on earth and those living at that time. That, or perhaps to the period of time after Christ's first coming when we're living in God's kingdom. Abraham and the prophets longed to see the days when Christ would walk the earth.

I think that the rest of the "coming" passages are relative to what the audience was experiencing, especially Revelation. Christ's coming to the Father (the only type of "coming" that is mentioned) is manifested to us when Christ's victory over our enemies (which has already been accomplished) is made evident to us.

When it comes to the passages in Revelation, I don't think it has one fulfillment. I believe that it refers to the original first century audience. I believe that it also refers to all of God's people since then who have been persecuted by Satan's kingdom, when God's kingdom triumphs over Satan's kingdom. It will ultimately culminate when Christ's rule is complete, and every enemy has been put under His feet (what we'd call "The Second Coming"). At that time every manifestation of Satan's kingdom is thrown down, and death and hades (the abode of the dead, the same as Hebrew "sheol"), along with Satan himself, are thrown into the lake of fire.

That last paragraph more or less sums up my view on all of those Revelation verses that you brought up.

Since I'm about to hit "submit", I hope that that was what you were looking for.

forum lurker
Jan 1st 2009, 11:31 AM
Let's see:

2 Peter 3:8 "8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

I think most of the verses in the OP are not contradictory at all when weighed against the verse above. It is a fair question, was Jesus pulling his followers leg when he said everything would happen soon from his viewpoint, and disregard their viewpoint? In my opinion, not at all. Those who followed his advice were able to prepare for the destruction and save themselves and probably didn't hold a grudge against Jesus.

Verses that seem contradicting:

Matthew 16:27-28 "For the Son of Man is about to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

Matthew 17 reveals what Jesus was talking about. Peter, James and his brother John see a glimpse of the future kingdom:

1And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.


Matthew 24:34 "Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place."

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

What is "this generation"? There is a generation, which shall not pass before the fullfillment of the things mentioned. After telling the sings of his coming "this generation" would see, he refers to his audience "likewise ye". It's logical to assume that the audience should likewise look for the sings, just like "this generation" Jesus talks about. By following this logic his audience isn't "this generation".

I didn't find other verses that seem contradictory if you follow the rule of thumb mentioned in the first verse.

RevLogos
Jan 1st 2009, 06:16 PM
As Jesus most succinctly put it: "It is finished!"

All that needed to be done is done. We are in the new age. We eagerly await Jesus' return, that hour is none of our business. Our job now is to fulfill the Great Commission until that time.

markedward
Jan 1st 2009, 08:30 PM
After telling the sings of his coming "this generation" would see, he refers to his audience "likewise ye".So... the "likewise ye" had absolutely nothing to do with the example he made of the fig-tree?

Jesus pointed at the fig-tree and said, "When leaves start sprouting, you know spring is near. Likewise you will know when 'the end of the age' is near when you see the previous things I explained begin to happen." I think a basic reading of what Jesus was saying is that He was making a comparison between the fig-tree and the signs it exhibited when spring was near and His generation and the signs it exhibited when the "end of the age" was near.

Something to think about.

forum lurker
Jan 2nd 2009, 07:50 AM
So... the "likewise ye" had absolutely nothing to do with the example he made of the fig-tree?

Jesus pointed at the fig-tree and said, "When leaves start sprouting, you know spring is near. Likewise you will know when 'the end of the age' is near when you see the previous things I explained begin to happen." I think a basic reading of what Jesus was saying is that He was making a comparison between the fig-tree and the signs it exhibited when spring was near and His generation and the signs it exhibited when the "end of the age" was near.

Something to think about.

I've thought about it, and I think you are correct. :idea: However, it doesn't talk about "His generation". I was trying to find a point which would prove that (with my poor English skills) but I agree, it isn't there.

Still, I see no contradiction. IMO "this generation" is a reference to the generation which would see the signs Jesus talks about. He could have said "Your generation" after all, if that was His message.

DurbanDude
Jan 2nd 2009, 03:05 PM
There's quite a few newer members posting recently (hello all!), and being the person I am, I like to know something about the people I read the posts of or converse with in threads. That being said, I want to get as much feedback on the following verses. As per rules, and personal restraints, I won't be elaborating much on my own beliefs on these verses; I simply want to get a general idea of how people on the boards interpret these, especially in the light that most of the forum users could be called "futurists".

Think of this as a poll, but you can be elaborate with your responses, and the poll choices are as numerous as the number of you. If you're a new user, I very much want your input; but if you're an older user, you're just as welcome to jump in.

Please restrict yourself to one post when explaining what you believe about the verses. You can post as much as you want, and make as many posts as you want discussion-wise, but please, when/if you make a post about the following verses, keep it to one post, not multiple posts in a row.
_____________

Matthew 10:23 "When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes."

Matthew 16:27-28 "For the Son of Man is about to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

Matthew 24:34 "Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place."

Luke 21:22 "... for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written."

Luke 21:28 "Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

Acts 2:16-17 "But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel, '"And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams"'" [Used as a defense for why Peter and the apostles were speaking in tongues on that very day.]

Romans 13:11-12 Besides this you know the time, that the hour has come for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. The night is far gone; the day is at hand.

1 Corinthians 7:29 This is what I mean, brothers: the appointed time has grown very short.

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.

Hebrews 1:1-2 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

Hebrews 9:26 But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Hebrews 10:37 For, "Yet a little while, and the coming one will come and will not delay."

James 5:1-3 Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver have corroded, and their corrosion will be evidence against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasure in the last days.

James 5:7-8 Be patient, therefore, brothers, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, being patient about it, until it receives the early and the late rains. You also, be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.

1 Peter 1:20 He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you.

1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is at hand...

1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour.

Revelation 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place.

Revelation 1:3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.

Revelation 1:19 Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are about to take place after this.

Revelation 3:11 I am coming soon.

Revelation 22:6 And he said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true. And the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place."

Revelation 22:7 "And behold, I am coming soon. Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book."

Revelation 22:10 And he said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near."

Revelation 22:12 "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done."

Revelation 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, "Surely I am coming soon." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!

[Sidenote: These are from a listing of verses I have written down. The listing is much more extensive than this, but to save space and time for each of us, I cut it down to just these.]


These verses are variously referring to Jesus ministry, the destruction of Jerusalem (70 AD), Jesus' crucifixion, the second coming.

modanufu
Jan 2nd 2009, 05:23 PM
There's quite a few newer members posting recently (hello all!)

Hello to you and a New Year full of blessings!

I'm what you perhaps might call a non-futurist amill.:)
_____________


Matthew 10:23 "When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes."
This task of the apostles has later on been extended from "Israel" to the whole world. Matt. 24:9b, 14.


Matthew 16:27-28 "For the Son of Man is about to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."
Paraphrase: Some of them who are standing here will keep my word and not taste death (in the meaning of John 8:52) but living -- although they may have died in the meantime -- enter the kingdom of heaven at the coming of the Son of Man (Second Coming).


Matthew 24:34 "Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place."
The context is here the Second Coming. The verse is a threat that the generation that heard Jesus preach but did not believe will be eternally judged (Matt. 23:33,36). "All these things" = everything that will happen including the Second Coming. "Pass away" is not "die" but "disappear". This generation will not disappear to escape their eternal judgment although heaven and earth will disappear at the Second Coming.


Luke 21:22 "... for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written."
This is about 70 AD.


Luke 21:28 "Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."
The redemption of the Second Coming.


Acts 2:16-17 "But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel, '"And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams"'"

This started at Pentecost.


Romans 13:11-12 Besides this you know the time, that the hour has come for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. The night is far gone; the day is at hand.
These "soon" texts do not mean that it will be chronologically soon. It is existential. With the cross and resurrection of Christ and his entering his heavenly kingdom people stand now with much more responsibility than ever before a radical choice. Do we believe and follow Him or don't we. The Last Judgment is at hand! John 3:36.

The same in these verses:

1 Corinthians 7:29 This is what I mean, brothers: the appointed time has grown very short.
Hebrews 10:37 For, "Yet a little while, and the coming one will come and will not delay."
James 5:7-8 Be patient, therefore, brothers, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, being patient about it, until it receives the early and the late rains. You also, be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.
1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is at hand...
Revelation 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place.
Revelation 1:3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.
Revelation 3:11 I am coming soon.
Revelation 22:6 And he said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true. And the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place."
Revelation 22:7 "And behold, I am coming soon. Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book."
Revelation 22:10 And he said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near."
Revelation 22:12 "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done."
Revelation 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, "Surely I am coming soon." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!




1 Corinthians 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.

The end of the ages is the time between the first and second coming of Christ.

The same in these verses:

Hebrews 1:1-2 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.
Hebrews 9:26 But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
James 5:1-3 Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver have corroded, and their corrosion will be evidence against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasure in the last days.
1 Peter 1:20 He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you.

1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour.
The last hour is the time between the first and second coming of Christ. The antichrist are, according to John, the false prophets and teachers in that period.


Revelation 1:19 Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are about to take place after this.
A division in ch. 1 / ch. 2-3 / ch. 4-22 is rather on the surface.
"The things that you have seen" = the visions John saw in Revelation.
"The things that are" = the truth about the Lord Jesus Christ, King of kings and Lord of lords.
"The things that are about to take place" = the things that the Lord is doing and will do in the future.

Kind regards,
Dik

markedward
Jan 2nd 2009, 07:13 PM
This task of the apostles has later on been extended from "Israel" to the whole world. Matt. 24:9b, 14.But this requires interpreting the verse of Matthew 10 as being a "task" that was assigned to the apostles. It reads more as a mere statement of fact, not an assignment of task.



Paraphrase: Some of them who are standing here will keep my word and not taste death (in the meaning of John 8:52) but living -- although they may have died in the meantime -- enter the kingdom of heaven at the coming of the Son of Man (Second Coming).There's a reason I don't trust paraphrases. The way you have written this is drastically different than what is naturally read from the verses in question, in nearly all English translations. Your paraphrase is claiming that Jesus said, "Some of you standing here will not die spiritually and enter the kingdom of heaven." The actual text states, "Some of you standing here will not die before the kingdom of heaven comes." Those read of very differently; the entire meaning of the passage is altered in your paraphrase.



The context is here the Second Coming. The verse is a threat that the generation that heard Jesus preach but did not believe will be eternally judged (Matt. 23:33,36). "All these things" = everything that will happen including the Second Coming. "Pass away" is not "die" but "disappear". This generation will not disappear to escape their eternal judgment although heaven and earth will disappear at the Second Coming.The verse said nothing about escaping eternal judgment. The natural reading is that "this generation" (whichever generation it is) would be the one to see the Coming. Meaning, "the coming of the Son of Man" will take place before "this generation" has entirely "passed away" ("died out" or "disappeared", regardless).


This is about 70 AD.

The redemption of the Second Coming.You're giving me mixed signals here. Verse 21:22 is about 70 AD... yet verse 21:28 is about "the second coming". But... verse 21:28 says that when you see "these things begin to take place" - including 21:22 - that "redemption" would be "near". So... are you saying that the Second Coming was "near" to the "days of vengeance" of 70 AD?


These "soon" texts do not mean that it will be chronologically soon.Why would they use chronologically related words or phrases ("soon", "at hand", "the time is near", etc.) if they weren't speaking of things happening in a timeframe?

The end of the ages is the time between the first and second coming of Christ.Just to make sure I understand, you're saying that "the end of the age[s]" and "the last hour" and "the last days" are equal to, roughly, a third of the amount of time mankind has even existed?


A division in ch. 1 / ch. 2-3 / ch. 4-22 is rather on the surface.I didn't say anything about a three-part division between these chapters...

But, thank you for your in-depth response.

markedward
Jan 2nd 2009, 07:16 PM
These verses are variously referring to Jesus ministry, the destruction of Jerusalem (70 AD), Jesus' crucifixion, the second coming.Would you care to elaborate on specific verses?

DurbanDude
Jan 2nd 2009, 09:58 PM
Matthew 10:23 "When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes."



This was to the church, the Son of Man was already there, saying those words, so Jesus must be referring to the preaching of the word before the second coming.

The bible says elsewhere that when He comes again every eye will see Him , He will come on the clouds in glory with all His angels and us saints will all be resurrected. This definitely has not occurred yet, Jesus must be referring to the current restored Israel and the preaching to the Jews that is going to intensify in the last days eg the two witnesses are there preaching to Jews during the last 3.5 years.



Matthew 16:27-28 "For the Son of Man is about to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."



Referring to spiritual death, he knew that some listening to His words would become saved and be part of the resurrection of the second coming. He also knew that in a few days 3 of His disciples would witness Jesus being transfigured and see a likeness of Jesus' glory at the coming.



Matthew 24:34 "Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place."


The generation that was to experience the signs that precede the second coming will experience the second coming.


Luke 21:22 for these are days of avenging, that all the things that are written may be accomplished.
21:23 But woe to them that are with child and to them who give suck in those days, for there shall be great distress upon the land and wrath upon this people.
21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of [the] nations until [the] times of [the] nations be fulfilled.


Luke 21:22 obviously isn't saying that all prophecy is fulfilled when Jerusalem is destroyed in 70 AD, because two verses later there is a prophecy about the period of time after Jerusalem is destroyed. This prophecy speaks of the diaspora, and the time of the nations. So the "days of avenging" must be referring to the destruction of Jerusalem and also the long period of the dispersion of the Jews, and the times of the gentiles, if we read 21:22 in context with 21:24.

modanufu
Jan 4th 2009, 04:55 PM
[quote=markedward;1927449]But this requires interpreting the verse of Matthew 10 as being a "task" that was assigned to the apostles. It reads more as a mere statement of fact, not an assignment of task.


DIK: The whole chapter is full of imperatives with a few predictions in between. The task of preaching to Israel is an imperative too, a command:

Matt. 10:5-6 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.



There's a reason I don't trust paraphrases. The way you have written this is drastically different than what is naturally read from the verses in question, in nearly all English translations. Your paraphrase is claiming that Jesus said, "Some of you standing here will not die spiritually and enter the kingdom of heaven." The actual text states, "Some of you standing here will not die before the kingdom of heaven comes." Those read of very differently; the entire meaning of the passage is altered in your paraphrase.

My paraphrasing is a brief way of explaining. With "Some of you standing here will not die before the kingdom of heaven comes." we are not much wiser. In that case there is only a statement, not an interpretation. And an interpretation -- my opinion on the verse -- was asked for, you know.:)



The verse said nothing about escaping eternal judgment. The natural reading is that "this generation" (whichever generation it is) would be the one to see the Coming. Meaning, "the coming of the Son of Man" will take place before "this generation" has entirely "passed away" ("died out" or "disappeared", regardless).

IMHO that is not a "natural" reading. "This generation" is everywhere else in the Gospels "this Jewish generation of Jesus' time" that does not believe. I haven't said anything about "escaping eternal judgment", only about "not escaping eternal judgment". This eternal judgment is clearly implied in the next verse about the passing away of heaven and earth at the Second Coming:

Matt. 24:34-35 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

See also Matt. 23:33-36 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? [...] Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.



You're giving me mixed signals here. Verse 21:22 is about 70 AD... yet verse 21:28 is about "the second coming". But... verse 21:28 says that when you see "these things begin to take place" - including 21:22 - that "redemption" would be "near". So... are you saying that the Second Coming was "near" to the "days of vengeance" of 70 AD?

Luke 21 is the only account of the three parallel accounts that is in chronological order. Luke 21:22 is about 70 AD. Luke 21:24 tells about what happens after 70 AD and goes on to the time of the Second Coming, the end of the times of the Gentiles. "These things" (elsewhere in the Gospels usually a global, imprecise expression) in this context is not the same as "ALL these things". Given the long time-period in Luke 21:24 it is quite logical that "these things" cannot here refer right back to the beginning, but only to vs. 25-27. I can see no problems here.



Why would they use chronologically related words or phrases ("soon", "at hand", "the time is near", etc.) if they weren't speaking of things happening in a timeframe?


This is a complicated question but let me give a simple answer.:)
(1) The date of the Second Coming is stated to be completely unknown so nobody can make any calculations as to near or far away.
(2) See Matt. 23:48-50 --

But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

I conclude: one has to be a bad servant to think that the Second Coming is temporally far away. Far and near is not calendar time, it is bound up with the attitude of our hearts. So it is not calendar time but existential. Augustine already saw this (Letter to Bishop Hesychius).



Just to make sure I understand, you're saying that "the end of the age[s]" and "the last hour" and "the last days" are equal to, roughly, a third of the amount of time mankind has even existed?

Apart from the difficult question how long mankind has existed I infer from the NT that such expressions are indeed about the time between the first and the second coming of our Lord, the "Gospel time" or "Intermediate Period". I hope this is clear to you...



I didn't say anything about a three-part division between these chapters...

Well, you wanted...


"to get as much feedback on the following verses".

Didn't you?



But, thank you for your in-depth response.

You're welcome.:)

Dik

John146
Jan 5th 2009, 10:39 PM
You're giving me mixed signals here. Verse 21:22 is about 70 AD... yet verse 21:28 is about "the second coming". But... verse 21:28 says that when you see "these things begin to take place" - including 21:22 - that "redemption" would be "near". So... are you saying that the Second Coming was "near" to the "days of vengeance" of 70 AD?In what sense would Jesus have wanted them to lift up their heads in 70 AD and in what sense did they receive redemption in 70 AD?

Also, you should notice that the context of verse 28 is global and not regional like verse 22.

Luke 21
25And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

I believe when he speaks of "these things" beginning to come to pass he is only referring to the distress of nations and those things coming on the earth and not to the things that would occur in Jerusalem in 70 AD.

My heart's Desire
Jan 10th 2009, 03:56 AM
That's a good idea getting to know folks and it is a very, very VERY long list! I'm not new but as you know I'm getting to be pretty dispensational, pre-trib, pre-mill, 1000 yr kingdom, new earth and heavens, eternity! :) (so, since I'm not new I'll wait awhile to answer) :D It is a great idea getting to know folks, where they stand. Great post!

Diebamted21
Jan 11th 2009, 02:38 AM
Markedward,

You state a main objective as being your desire to short circuit the ‘getting to know you’ procedure in respect of newcomers and, at less than 10 posts, I’m sure in that category.
However, I have a problem in that the predominance of ‘me’ is to subordinate Theological Dogma to walking the path of faith with simple childlike trust.
Eschatological assertion is therefore very much on the back burner for me so you’ll have to discover the remainder of ‘me’ in another thread otherwise I will be acused of straying off topic if I unfold too much of the burden of my calling in this particular thread.
So what I’ll do is to open up a ‘this is part of me’ thread entitled ‘Parables, analogies, and Metaphores’ in an appropriate board as soon as I am entitled to do so.
Such a thread should at least explain why Theological Dogma in all areas (not just eschatology) is something that figures low in my priorities.
That’s the nearest I can get in terms of eschatology to telling you something about myself as a new member.
See ya soon.....somewhere else.

Diebamted21

Roelof
Jan 11th 2009, 07:00 AM
ESCHATOLOGY EVENTS

I have spoken these things to you so that you might have peace in Me. In the world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer. I have overcome the world. (Joh 16:33)

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up [Raptured] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord. (1Th 4:17)

For many deceivers have entered into the world, who do not confess Jesus Christ coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the anti-christ. (2 Jn 1:7)
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the breath of His mouth and shall destroy with the brightness of His [Second] coming, (2Th 2:8)

for then shall be great tribulation [wrath of God], such as has not been since the beginning of the world to this time; no, nor ever shall be. (Mat 24:21)

And he gathered them into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. (Rev 16:16)
You shall fall on the mountains of Israel, you and all your bands, and the people with you. I will give you for food to the birds of prey of every kind, and to the beasts of the field. (Eze 39:4)

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the breath of His mouth and shall destroy with the brightness of His [Second] coming, (2Th 2:8)

And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him a thousand years. (Rev 20:2)

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. … And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (Rev 20:4)

And I saw a great white throne [judgment], and Him sitting on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And a place was not found for them. (Rev 20:11)

And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire. (Rev 20:15)

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth. For the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. And the sea no longer is. (Rev 21:1)

And I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of Heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her Husband. (Rev 21:2)


SCRIPTURE PROPHESYING THE LAST DAYS EVENTS

Also day by day, from the first day unto the last day, he read in the book of the law of God. And they kept the feast seven days; and on the eighth day was a solemn assembly, according unto the manner. (Neh 8:18)

And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. (Isa 2:2)

And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: (Act 2:17)

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? (Mat 24:3-14)

For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. (Mat 24:7)

Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. (Mat 24:9)

And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. (Mat 24:12)

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (Mat 24:14)

Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. (Luk 21:26)

He who rejects Me and does not receive My Words has one who judges him; the Word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. (Joh 12:48)

This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. (2Ti 3:1)

Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, (2Pe 3:3)

Diebamted21
Jan 11th 2009, 08:40 AM
Roelof,

SCRIPTURE DESCRIBING THE LAST DAYS EVENTS

(Joh 16:33)(1Th 4:17)(2 Jn 1:7)(2Th 2:8)(Mat 24:21)(Rev 16:16)
(Eze 39:4)(2Th 2:8)(Rev 20:2)(Rev 20:4)(Rev 20:11)(Rev 20:15)
(Rev 21:1)(Rev 21:2)

SCRIPTURE PROPHESYING THE LAST DAYS EVENTS

(Neh 8:18)(Isa 2:2)(Act 2:17)(Mat 24:3-14)(Mat 24:7)(Mat 24:9)
(Mat 24:12)(Mat 24:14)(Luk 21:26)(Joh 12:48)(2Ti 3:1)(2Pe 3:3)

A re-arrangement of the order in which God produced 'His Word' has been long overdue.;)

(Don't pay any attention to me.....I'm full of nonsense)

Diebamted21

markedward
Jan 11th 2009, 06:46 PM
Roelof,

Would you mind actually responding to the OP as was asked, rather than simply posting a bunch of verses without giving an explanation?

YahwehIsGod
Jan 11th 2009, 11:03 PM
Matthew 10:23 "When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes."

This is pretty straightforward. Jesus is telling his disciples ("you") that they will not finish going through all the towns of Israel before he returns in glory.


Matthew 16:27-28 "For the Son of Man is about to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

We know from Mark's version of this event that there were other disciples there besides for the 12. Jesus is simply stating that some of those disciples standing there in front of him would not taste death until they see Him come again in judgment and glory, which was "about to" happen.

I notice forum lurker tried to link this to the transfiguration. Such an interpretation simply does not work, because none of the disciples had died by that time (only six days later). Further, there was no judgment at the transfiguration ("he will repay each person according to what he has done"), nor were there any angels. No, Jesus was not talking about his transfiguration, but rather the events surrounding the destruction of the Jewish temple in 70 A.D.


Matthew 24:34 "Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place."

"Truly, I say to you [the discples standing there in front of him], this generation ["this" being a near demonstrative, meaning the generation then alive during Jesus' time] will not pass away until all these things take place." [everything contained in the Olivet Discourse]

Not to pick on forum lurker, but I would just like to point out that in EVERY other instance that Jesus uses the phrase "this generation" in the gospels he's referring to his contemporaries. Given this, I do not see how you can interpret the phrase to mean anything else in Matthew 24:34 and still remain hermeneutically consistent.


Luke 21:22 "... for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written."

Those first-century Christians of Jesus' time were living in the last days..."for THESE are the days..."


Luke 21:28 "Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

Again, Jesus is addressing his contemporaries: "raise up YOUR heads, because YOUR redemption is drawing NEAR."


Acts 2:16-17 "But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel, '"And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams"'

Peter is saying that the signs which they (the Jews there with him) were seeing from him and the other apostles (speaking in tongues) was evidence, as written by the Prophet Joel, that they were then living in the last days.


Romans 13:11-12 Besides this you know the time, that the hour has come for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. The night is far gone; the day is at hand.

Salvation was to be made complete at the Parousia, when all men were to be judged and the new heavens and earth established. Paul promises his Roman audience that this was near, at hand.


1 Corinthians 7:29 This is what I mean, brothers: the appointed time has grown very short.

In context, Paul advises that those who are not married remain as they are lest they be consumed with things of the world, which he promises in verse 31 is "passing away."


1 Corinthians 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.

The end of the age (not world) was to happen during the lifetime of Paul's and the Corinthian's generation.


Hebrews 1:1-2 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

"these last days..." The writer of Hebrews indicating that they were living in the last days.


Hebrews 9:26 But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Hebrews 10:37 For, "Yet a little while, and the coming one will come and will not delay."

Death was to be forever defeated by Christ at the time his parousia at the end of the age, which was to happen "a little while" from the time that Hebrews was written.


James 5:1-3 Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver have corroded, and their corrosion will be evidence against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasure in the last days.

James 5:7-8 Be patient, therefore, brothers, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, being patient about it, until it receives the early and the late rains. You also, be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.

James is warning is audience that they are living in the last days. The coming of the Lord was "at hand."


1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is at hand...

Speaks for itself, I think. Peter, like Paul, James and John, is here warning that they were living in the last days and that the end of all things (Old Covenant) was at hand.


1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour.

The fact that the first-century Christians were already seeing antichrists was evidence that they were living in the last days. "It is the last hour," John says.


Revelation 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place.

Revelation 1:3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.

Revelation 1:19 Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are about to take place after this.

All the events described by John in Revelation were to take place "soon," for the time was "near."


Revelation 3:11 I am coming soon.

Christ promises the first-century Church in Philadelphia that he was coming "soon."


Revelation 22:6 And he said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true. And the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place."

The evnts depicted in Revelation were "soon" to take place.


Revelation 22:7 "And behold, I am coming soon. Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book."

Again Christ warns of the imminency of his coming. He was not going to delay, but was going to come soon.


Revelation 22:10 And he said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near."

Daniel is told 400-500 years prior to seal up the book for time of the end. John, however, is told NOT to seal up the words of his prophecy for the time is "near." If 500 years is not near for Daniel, how can 2000+ years be near for John? Something to think about.


Revelation 22:12 "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done."

Judgment was coming "soon." Interesting that the same language used here is also used in Matthew 16 and Revelation 20 (the Great White Throne scene).

Matthew 16:27: "For the Son of Man is about to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done"
Revelation 20:12a-13: And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Revelation 22:12: "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done."

The great and final judgment then was not to take place at some far off time in the future, but was an event which was "about to" take place. "Behold, I amcoming soon, bringing my recompense (judgment) with me..."


Revelation 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, "Surely I am coming soon." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!


As if to say, "If you haven't gotten it by now, here it is one more time" John reiterates the promise of Christ that his coming was to take place "soon."

Joel

forum lurker
Jan 12th 2009, 08:07 AM
I notice forum lurker tried to link this to the transfiguration. Such an interpretation simply does not work, because none of the disciples had died by that time (only six days later). Further, there was no judgment at the transfiguration ("he will repay each person according to what he has done"), nor were there any angels. No, Jesus was not talking about his transfiguration, but rather the events surrounding the destruction of the Jewish temple in 70 A.D.


I don't see the point in some of the disciples needing to be dead by that time. Some of them witnessed the transfiguration, some didn't, all of them died later.

Matthew 16:28 speaks about seeing Jesus as the king of His kingdom, not entering it. I think the transfiguration was convincing enough as such as it appeared. They also didn't see lions eating grass, but I don't think that was the point. ;)

YahwehIsGod
Jan 12th 2009, 08:55 AM
I don't see the point in some of the disciples needing to be dead by that time.

I don't see how you don't. Jesus said, "there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom" meaning that the majority of them would taste death before this event occurred. If Jesus was referring to the transfiguration which took place six days later, this is a false prophecy, because ALL who were standing there had not tasted death by that point in time.


Some of them witnessed the transfiguration, some didn't, all of them died later.Jesus did not say "some standing here will witness the transfiguration," he said "some standing here will not TASTE DEATH until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." There's a big difference there.


Matthew 16:28 speaks about seeing Jesus as the king of His kingdom, not entering it.Then what exactly does "coming in his kingdom" mean?


I think the transfiguration was convincing enough as such as it appeared.I won't argue the fact that the transfiguration was a picture of Christ's coming into glory, but it was not the event he described to his disciples in Matthew 16:27-28. You're right: nothing was said about lions eating grass, but he did talk about angels being present and judgment being handed out. This did not happen at the transfiguration.

Joel

forum lurker
Jan 12th 2009, 09:54 AM
I don't see how you don't. Jesus said, "there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom" meaning that the majority of them would taste death before this event occurred. If Jesus was referring to the transfiguration which took place six days later, this is a false prophecy, because ALL who were standing there had not tasted death by that point in time.

He does not say, that majority would taste death before seeing His kingdom. Even if he did, it could be correct, they still could see the Lord's future kingdom after being resurrected.

Think it like this: A car dealer speaks to a crowd, saying "We have such great cars, that some of you will not go taste a free hamburger before buying one."

Does that mean, that everyone else not in that group would have to go for the free burger and buy a car? Absolutely not! What the car dealer says, addresses those who would not get the burger and buy the car. The rest can do what they want, the car dealer's words still make sense.


Jesus did not say "some standing here will witness the transfiguration," he said "some standing here will not TASTE DEATH until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." There's a big difference there.

Then what exactly does "coming in his kingdom" mean?Coming as the king, in His kingdom. Isn't this exactly what happens in the transfiguration?


I won't argue the fact that the transfiguration was a picture of Christ's coming into glory, but it was not the event he described to his disciples in Matthew 16:27-28. You're right: nothing was said about lions eating grass, but he did talk about angels being present and judgment being handed out. This did not happen at the transfiguration.I'm kind of baffled with this. If I show you a photo of a dog with its' tail out of the picture, does it mean the tail has to be missing in reality too? I think that conclusion is a little bit short-sighted.

shepherdsword
Jan 12th 2009, 10:16 AM
I removed the link because the author just didn't have the right attitude. I agreed with some of what he said but not in the way he said it. I ahve instead pasted a excerpt that I feel is valid:



Since Full Preterism adheres to the position that all Scriptures were fulfilled on or before 70 AD, it must be considered baseless, invalid and without merit. We need to remember that it is not necessary to defeat the Preterist on every issue, just one single issue. Regarding the Day of the Lord in Obadiah 1:15-20 and Isaiah chapter 13, Don Preston and the Preterists who follow him embrace a false position because of the following reasons:

Obadiah 1:17 refers to deliverance for the house of Jacob. This did not only fail to take place in 583 BC, but has not taken place up to and including the year 70 AD. Between these two time periods, the house of Jacob was under the yoke of the Babylonian Empire, the Medeo-Persian Empire, the Greek Empire, and the Roman Empire. Therefore, no deliverence has taken place. But it will…in the future!
Obadiah 1:17 refers to the house of Jacob possessing the possessions of all the heathen. This also did not only fail to take place in 583 BC, but did not take place up to and including the year 70 AD, for the same reasons indicated above.
Obadiah 1:18 reveals that the house of Jacob would completely destroy the house of Esau, the Edomites. Don Preston's claim that this occurred in 583 BC is unsubstantiated by his own admission because, according to him, it was the Babylonians who conquered Edom at that time, not the house of Jacob. Therefore, it is only logical to assume that this will be fulfilled on a future date when the house of Jacob will utterly destroy and consume the remnant of the house of Esau (Malachi 1:2-4). And, according to Isaiah 34:5-10, it will be over the controversy of Zion (see Isaiah 34:8).
Obadiah 1:20 reveals that the children of Israel will possess that of the Canaanities. According to Genesis 17:1-10, specifically verse 8, and Psalm 105:7-11, specifically verses 10 & 11, this is the Promised Land. This is God's Everlasting Covenant between Himself and the descendents of Jacob. This has not yet taken place, but it will…in the future!
Finally, Isaiah 13:19-20 foretells of Babylon's Final Judgment when it will be rendered desolate and uninhabitable. According to Jeremiah 50:3, 9, 39-41, this will be accomplished by nations from the north. Remember, the Medes came directly from the east to conquer Babylon in 539 BC. This was the fulfillment of Isaiah 13:17. Since Arabians have been pitching tents in Babylon for the past 2700 years, Isaiah 13:19-20 and Jeremiah 50:3, 9, 39-41 have not yet been fulfilled. But it will…in the future!

forum lurker
Jan 12th 2009, 10:26 AM
disclaimer:
I don't agree with the author's conclusion that anyone who doesn't agree with his "escatology" is a heretic

I agree with you.

Thanks to our differing views we can examine these verses closer, and perhaps find something we haven't thought about before. It can't be a bad thing.. ;)

third hero
Jan 12th 2009, 10:37 AM
I agree with you.

Thanks to our differing views we can examine these verses closer, and perhaps find something we haven't thought about before. It can't be a bad thing.. ;)

I am of the type that believes that if one set of beliefs are heretical, then those beliefs are heresy. I reserve judgment on those who believe in such heresy, because I am not to judge a person.

I do not call those who do not believe in my set of doctrines heretics, but I do label certain sets of beliefs as heresy, including the set that I originally was taught, Jehovah's witnesses.

shepherdsword
Jan 12th 2009, 10:58 AM
I agree with you.

Thanks to our differing views we can examine these verses closer, and perhaps find something we haven't thought about before. It can't be a bad thing.. ;)

To be honest with you I have never studied the preterist view with an open mind. Always as an antagonists.It will be interesting to see how Mark defends it. I will also admit that I have a bit of a struggle with some of those verses in the poll he posted. How about revelations "and these thing must SHORTLY come to pass". I wonder what they believe about the second coming and the age to come?

YahwehIsGod
Jan 12th 2009, 06:40 PM
He does not say, that majority would taste death before seeing His kingdom.

Indirectly, that's exactly what he said. The inverse of "some standing here will not taste death..." is "most standing here will taste death..."

The heavens will literally shake, the stars will literally fall from the sky, and the moon will literally turn to blood, but Jesus didn't literally mean what he clearly and plainly said in Matthew 16:27-28. I don't understand.

Joel

markedward
Jan 12th 2009, 07:31 PM
Since Full Preterism adheres to the position that all Scriptures were fulfilled on or before 70 AD, it must be considered baseless, invalid and without merit.Do you have anything to say regarding to the verses in the OP? How you interpret them, etc.?


It will be interesting to see how Mark defends it.I did state in my OP that I wouldn't be going into my own beliefs. I'll ask questions to propel discussion, but me being on the defense isn't my purpose for this thread. If you want to ask me specific questions about it, feel free to PM or email me, but otherwise I won't be going into any of that here.

forum lurker
Jan 12th 2009, 07:52 PM
Indirectly, that's exactly what he said. The inverse of "some standing here will not taste death..." is "most standing here will taste death..."

The heavens will literally shake, the stars will literally fall from the sky, and the moon will literally turn to blood, but Jesus didn't literally mean what he clearly and plainly said in Matthew 16:27-28. I don't understand.

Joel

"Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."

"some standing here" is defined by 2 attributes: not taste death, see the kingdom.

The rest is not "some standing here" if 1 or 2 of these attributes isn't true.

1. taste death, see the kingdom
2. taste death, not see the kingdom.
3. not taste death, not see the kingdom (clearly not possible)

I think it's probable that the rest (not some standing here) consists of members from both of these 2 first groups, as I don't think the audience was particularly righteous or wicked.

I don't know if this was better than my previous attempt. If the rest of the crowd tasted death before seeing the kingdom, I don't see why I should have a problem with that, I just don't think that's necessarily what follows from Jesus' words.

------

Of course the transfiguration isn't the point why Jesus speaks to the crowd. The point was in His coming kingdom, and the transfiguration is a glimpse of it. He didn't say "Some of you standing here will see all these things before tasting death". Which he could, if the disciples were to enter His kingdom before their death.

Nihil Obstat
Jan 13th 2009, 03:13 AM
I thought that since you started this thread in order to get to know us better, that I'd begin with a brief introduction about myself. I'm married, we have a 17 month old daughter, and are also pregnant. We are both preparing to be missionaries, and operate in healing and deliverance and the prophetic regularly. I'm attending a school that has been called the singing seminary, and I also teach there occasionally on the second coming of Jesus and on Israel. I've been saved almost four years, and seriously, about the only thing I've done since then is pray, read the Bible, and write about the Bible. For the past ten months I've been intensely studying, meditating, writing about, and encountering the cross, and I hate that in spite of all I know experientially that I still sin. Mark, I've specifically sinned against you on numerous occasions, and I am truly repentant. I hate wickedness - why do I agree with it so often? Jesus, save me from this body of death!


Matthew 10:23 "When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes."

The book of Matthew is fast becoming one of my favorites because of my study on the cross. Matthew speaks of the cross with eschatological language all throughout, considering the cross event to be the Day of the Lord, which I find fascinating. Specifically the name "Son of Man", taken from Dan. 7:9-14, puts an interesting spin on things when you realize that in Daniel's night vision the Son of Man ascends to the Ancient of Days, which I believe occurred at Jesus' death (and not in Acts 1:9). I believe that in this verse Jesus is speaking of His death (cp. v.38, which is the first time the cross is spoken of).


Matthew 16:27-28 "For the Son of Man is about to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

This is another one where I believe He is speaking of His crucifixion. I consider 16:21-17:23 to be pertaining to His death, especially when comparing His words here with the events of Daniel's dream surrounding when the Son of Man enters into His kingdom. Some standing there would see Him crucified; I no longer agree that He is speaking of His transfiguration (though the transfiguration pointed to His death; cp. Matt. 16:21 w/ 17:5; Luke 9:31; Rev. 21:23). Similar to in 26:64, when He rebukingly reveals to the High Priest that he is working the works of Daniel's beasts, here Jesus speaks of Him judging all based upon His work completed on the cross (which is also what 19:28 and 25:31 are about, calling His cross "the throne of His glory").


Matthew 24:34 "Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place."

When you let the word "all" mean what it means, you're forced to concede that His generation did not see the gathering of the Messianic Jews (the elect) as promised over and over again throughout Scripture; as Luke records, the times of the Gentiles would first be fulfilled before the elect would be gathered, and those times did not end in that generation.


Luke 21:22 "... for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written."

This isn't the only time Luke scribes this phrase; he does so also in 24:44, but you and I would both agree that not all things had been fulfilled at His death and resurrection. Rather, what He is saying here is that the "days of vengeance" are prophesied to happen in Scripture, and so they must happen, that all things would be fulfilled. He is also speaking of how God judges nations, and that His judgments are sure to go forth. What Jesus is not saying is that all was fulfilled by 70 AD, for, as I said above, the times of the Gentiles did not end with the destruction of Jerusalem, and therefore the redemption of the Messianic Jews promised in Luke 21:28 must still be future.


Luke 21:28 "Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

The signs given in vv.25-27 are not apocalyptic jargon - they will literally take place. And when they do, the elect are not to cower or lose hope, but they are to lift up their heads and hasten their redemption. As Zacharias spoke by the unction of the Holy Spirit, the salvation of the Jews from the hand of Rome would come only by the remission of their sins (see Heb. 9:28). These cataclysmic global signs are still yet future.


Acts 2:16-17 "But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel, 'And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams'" [Used as a defense for why Peter and the apostles were speaking in tongues on that very day.]

If you see, Acts 1:12-15 and 2:1 meet the requirements of Joel 2:12-17 for the promised Spirit to be poured out (note the "then" in Joel 2:18, which promises follow through to v.29). In other words, the "afterward" of Joel 2:28 means "after you gather together and corporately fast for deliverance from the wicked nation that I've sent against you". However, the "before" of Joel 2:31 clearly hadn't happened in Acts 2, which many stumble at. My understanding is that deliverance is a process (see my note above about Luke 1:67-79); Moses did not immediately deliver the Jews from Egypt into the Promised Land, but rather into the Wilderness which acted as a refiner's soap to purge them of their agreements with Egypt and from their proneness to choose Egypt's ways. The saved Christian is in that Wilderness, which is why it is said that we were saved (Rom. 8:24), are being saved (1 Cor. 1:18), and will be saved (Matt. 10:22). This is the same reason why Paul says one moment that we've put off our old man and put on the new (Rom. 6:1-11; Eph. 4:22-24; Col. 3:9-10), but then immediately follows that up with exhortations to stop sinning (Rom. 6:12-13; Eph. 4:25 ff; Col. 3:12 ff). This is why we are to carry our cross daily, and why we've been given power over sin yet still fall prey to sin.


Romans 13:11-12 Besides this you know the time, that the hour has come for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. The night is far gone; the day is at hand.

I also love the book of Romans. It's not about "how to get saved" as I've heard so often said, but more specifically is about the Abrahamic covenant. Part of this covenant (which encompasses the Deuteronomic, Davidic, and New covenants) is that God will avenge His elect ones (see 12:19). Though the law is in place and the Spirit condemns the wicked (John 3:18), there is a season of amnesty given us by God's longsuffering mercy and grace (2 Pet. 3:9). Therefore, Paul is here commanding the church that they love their enemies and honor Caesar that they may fulfill the law. He gives them an urgency to their actions that they may press all the harder into God's Spirit for divine empowerment to walk out His law faithfully, for when God judges a nation, He brings all who are haughty low, even those in the church (Isa. 2:12; Rev. 2-3). Knowing prophetically that it was going to soon get harder before it became easier to be a Christian in the Roman Empire, Paul warns the church in Rome to make their calling and election sure.


1 Corinthians 7:29 This is what I mean, brothers: the appointed time has grown very short.

This chapter is often misread, as many believe Paul to be frowning upon marriage. I assure you, this is not the case. Paul knows that God instituted marriage - he speaks highly of marriage, speaking of our union with Christ as a marriage (Rom. 7:4; 2 Cor. 11:2; Eph. 5:22-33), and is definitely not forbidding anyone to marry (1 Tim. 4:3). What Paul is exhorting the church in Corinth to do is to exercise self-control (see vv.2, 5, and 9) and to not entertain a restless spirit (vv.17-20, 24). Similar to what I descried with Rom. 13:11-12, Paul knows by the Spirit that times of distress are coming, and are even happening on a small scale as he writes to them. It's always good for a man to remain as he is, but more so to those who are in times (and preparing for even greater times) of distress.


1 Corinthians 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.

As I said earlier about the Christian being in the Wilderness, and our born again life on this side of eternity being a short transitional season of amnesty, that is what Paul is here speaking about; note that all the examples he gave in vv.1-10 occurred in the Wilderness.


Hebrews 1:1-2 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

Here the author of Hebrews (who I strongly believe to be Paul) begins his epistle by speaking of Jesus as a prophet who was sent just as the prophets of old were sent, bringing the same message as they brought, and because He came thusly and as the prophets promised we are to heed all of their words even more. The words they spoke (including Jesus’ words) were either calling the people back to their covenantal obligations, or were crowning them for their covenantal obedience. Even in the few recorded places where the prophets were sent to Gentiles, the message was still one of professing the God of covenant and demanding their compliance with Him and His covenant (for He blesses those who bless Israel, and curses those who curse Israel). As even a brief study of Hebrews will reveal, this book is all about God’s covenantal promises and their sureness to come to pass, and therefore the response necessary that His people specifically are to take.


Hebrews 9:26 But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

I believe that, given the context of the New covenant being now ratified, the “end of the ages [or, world]” speaks of the completion of the Mosaic covenant. Under the first covenant, none were able to fulfill the law; under the New covenant, all are made able to fulfill the law.


Hebrews 10:37 For, "Yet a little while, and the coming one will come and will not delay."

Interestingly, I agree that this is speaking of 70 AD. The quote is taken from Hab. 2, which is a series of woes against Judah’s king (and not Nebuchadnezzar; cp. Jer. 22). It describes why God is sending against His people the Babylonian armies, a perfect passage to provoke the Messianic Jews in Jerusalem to embrace their cross as Jesus did. Again, Paul is prophesying what all the elect in the King’s city already foresee happening: Rome being raised up by God to judge His people Israel for disobedience to the covenants and for killing His messengers of the covenants, specifically their disowning Jesus, the Mediator of the covenants. But this chastening is all unto Israel’s salvation, as the book of Habakkuk concludes, and as the promises of the covenants assure.

Nihil Obstat
Jan 13th 2009, 03:14 AM
James 5:1-3 Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver have corroded, and their corrosion will be evidence against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasure in the last days.

These are not the “final” days until Jesus comes as King, but as the Lord of hosts coming as Judge. In other words, the days that these rich ones have to repent are very few in number before God sends against them His armies, i.e. Rome.


James 5:7-8 Be patient, therefore, brothers, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, being patient about it, until it receives the early and the late rains. You also, be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.

Here James commands those being oppressed by the rich to wait for the Lord to vindicate them, even as He came and vindicated Job (v.11). The brethren are to be patient “until the parousia of the [Judge]”, which is described as being “at hand” (perfect tense). Something that is at hand is present with you and ready to be of use. The parable James gives is that the farmer (the brethren) waits for the precious fruit of the earth (vindication), which comes only by the early and latter rain (the coming of the Lord). Both of these rains are at hand, meaning, the seed of the gospel has been planted but the former rains are still to be expected, though they are expected soon. This “former rain” is the events leading up to 70 AD, while the “latter rain” (which comes just prior to harvesting the crops which did germinate), I believe, is still yet future (cp. Matt. 13:36-43, 47-50; Rev. 14).


1 Peter 1:20 He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you.

Just as with my note above on Heb. 9:26, I point out that this verse pertains to the New covenant in Jesus’ blood, and thusly our being finished with the former ways of how we walked in the world due to that covenant now being ratified.


1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is at hand...

“All things” concerning what? – their suffering, which must come before the glories that follow (1:11; 4:1-2; 5:10); and because their sufferings will soon end forever, they are exhorted all the more to love and obey Jesus through the fiery trials they will soon face, as an arena to demonstrate that their faith in Him and in His promises are genuine.


1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour.

The book of First John is and forever will be my all time favorite book. In it John is condemning a specific heresy called Docetism, which is similar to the heresy of Gnosticism. The Greek word for ‘antichrist’ means ‘instead of Christ’, and these antichrists speak by the spirit of error (4:6). John specifically condemns antichrists for denying that Jesus came in the flesh, and that He is therefore not the promised Christ (3:5) – this is why John calls these false prophets “instead of Christ”, as they profess another Christ than He who came by water and blood (5:6). Seeing as this letter was written in the mid-90s AD (as I believe all of John’s letters were), I’m interested to hear your thoughts, Mark, on what “the last hour” means.


Revelation 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place.

There are several reasons why I believe this prophesy was given to and written by John in the mid-90s AD. 1) Jesus does not address the church in Jerusalem. Why not? They would be the ones who most needed to hear from Him if the events of 70 AD were still ahead. 2) Jerusalem is never explicitly mentioned in this book (cp. 11:8) apart from in its perfected state. 3) John is told to measure the temple, an action in Scripture that only takes place when there is no temple (Eze. 40:3-4; Zech. 2:1-5; cp. Rev. 21:15). 4) John wrote this “on the Lord’s Day” – not Sunday, called in Scripture “the first day of the week”, but rather the Lordly Day, as “Lord” is here in the Greek an adjective and not a noun. This is historically describing Emperor Domitian’s lordly day when once a year all Roman citizens had to say “Caesar is Lord” by pain of death (cp. 2:10, 13). The churches needed this revelation of Jesus Christ and of His end-times strategy in order for them to stand and overcome in the midst of the persecutions they would soon face. God did this with all of the prophets, and He does so here as well with John.


Revelation 1:3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.

The reason why John is told to address the seven letters to angels is because he is imprisoned on the Isle of Patmos on the lordly day (1:9-10), and only angels would be able to make known to the churches that which will enable them to persevere through this short but intense time of persecution and trial. (Just as an angel was sent by Jesus to John, angels would have been sent by Jesus to the seven churches in Asia.) The revelation of the last days empowers us to walk rightly today.


Revelation 1:19 Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are about to take place after this.

This verse gives us the outline of each of Jesus’ seven epistles (and does not concern ch.4-22). That which John “had” seen (1:10-18) was how each letter began (“These things says…”); that which “is” was the state of each church (“I know your works…”); that which “will take place after this” is the judgment or reward of each of the churches addressed (“Repent… To him who overcomes…”).


Revelation 3:11 I am coming soon.

The thing that needs to be understood here is that Jesus is writing to these churches because they too were in opposition to Him, and when He comes, He brings low all who are exalted. Only this church and the church in Smyrna were without rebuke, but all were exhorted to overcome lest they find themselves standing against Him in His day. He came to John as a Judge (1:13) with the message that He was going to judge His people soon, by way of this "lordly day" to see who were His true witnesses (or literally, martyrs). This tribulation would last ten days (2:10), but the great tribulation still to come will last 42 months (11:2-3).


Revelation 22:6-7 And he said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true.” And the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place. “Behold, I am coming soon. Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book."

Same answer that I gave for 1:1, 3; 3:11 (the language is much the same – the first is introduction, and this is conclusion).


Revelation 22:10 And he said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near."

In contrast to the command given Daniel about 11:31-12:3 (cp. Dan. 12:7 w/ Rev. 10:5-7) to “seal the book until the time of the end… for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end” (12:4, 9), here John is commanded not to seal up the prophecy, for it was given to God’s servants to understand that they might overcome through their present trials, even unto the end of the age. The book of Daniel has a different purpose than Revelation does.


Revelation 22:12 "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done."

Again, one of the purposes of this prophecy is to reveal those who truly loved Jesus and His ways, and believed in His promises. His true followers would be manifested as those who withstood the hour of trial in light of the ultimate trial that is still yet to come.


Revelation 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, "Surely I am coming soon." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!

Only those who are right with Jesus cry out for His coming, for His coming necessarily includes entire nations standing opposed to you, Satan being given authority over you, and God Himself “setting you up” that you might be His very own (at all costs).

* * * * *

This post (I had to divide it into two because of length) took me three days to write (the purpose is worthy of my time, for the question is a worthy one that we all ought to wrestle with), so I ask you to put at least that much into reading, meditating on, praying through, and testing what all I’ve written here before replying. If someone proves something I've written as faulty, then I will immediately change what I believe - as a teacher, I am very teachable. Thanks so much, especially to you Mark, and to all, be blessed.

- Astro

shepherdsword
Jan 13th 2009, 03:40 AM
Do you have anything to say regarding to the verses in the OP? How you interpret them, etc.?

I did state in my OP that I wouldn't be going into my own beliefs. I'll ask questions to propel discussion, but me being on the defense isn't my purpose for this thread. If you want to ask me specific questions about it, feel free to PM or email me, but otherwise I won't be going into any of that here.

Mark,
I will pray and studying in depth those verses before I regurgitate some cookie cutter response. I do have some questions that I will PM you later about. It may not be for few days though,ok?

markedward
Jan 13th 2009, 04:44 AM
astro,

Thanks for the very detailed response; I thought many of your viewpoints were interesting, but I would like to add one thing...

Given that most of the verses speak about timing (and I'm sure you noticed this), you didn't seem to a response to a few verses in relation to the timing they suggested. Specifically, since I said that I wouldn't be explaining my views in this thread (this is the third time I've said it, actually), and that I'm only asking for others' thoughts, can you please give your specific responses to those verses? (Note: My views may come out through my questions, but I'm simply asking questions from my perspective.) The ones I feel you did not adequately answer in regards to the implication of timing are:

Matthew 10:23 = Your claim is that the "coming of the Son of Man" in this verse is the cross and not the same as the one referred to in Matthew 24 (right?), and you appeal to Daniel 7:13-14 for this. Does that mean the terrible beast of Daniel 7 was defeated at the cross, and if so, how? Also, if this verse is about the crucifixion and not the same "coming" as Matthew 24, why is that Jesus speaks of persecution here exactly the same as He does in Mark 13, which is the parallel to Matthew 24; meaning, if Mark 13 is about "the end-times", and speaks of persecution, and Matthew 10 uses this exact same persecution speech in regards to the "you will not pass through all the towns" bit, why is Matthew 10:23 about the crucifixion yet Mark 13 isn't?

1 John 2:18 = What does he mean by "this is how we know it is the last hour"?

Rev 1:1 = What does John mean by "the things that must soon take place"? All you said was that you believe it was written in the 90s, but you didn't say anything as to what you thought John meant when he claimed the events "must soon take place". (Note: I've checked out information on this "lordly day" thing, and I can't find any evidence for it... in fact, the one time anyone ever provided a source for me on this "lordly day", I went and found the book, found the chapter they referred to, read it, and saw that it was entirely the opposite of what they said: that the author did claim that it was "probably" Sunday, and they mentioned that the emperor creating a holiday devoted to worship of himself began with Augustus, giving pretty much the entirety of the first-century a chance for this "lordly day" to exist, even if John was using it to refer to a day of emperor-worship. Plus, I think it's just plain dis-credible for us to assume John was using what is (allegedly) a pagan holiday to give an account for when he was writing the book; but this is besides the point...)

Rev 1:3 = What does John mean when he says "the time is near"?

3:11 = How do you choose when to make a distinction between when Jesus is "coming" as a judge and when He is "coming" for the last time?

22:6-7 = You still haven't explained why the "bookends" of "I am coming soon" and "These things must soon take place" don't refer to the majority of the book. It just seems to me to be a completely arbitrary distinction that you're making. "This coming is a judgment. But this one is literal. But this one is the cross." How do you make the distinction?

Revelation 22:10 = Why is it that Daniel's prophecies are sealed because the fulfillment is far away, yet John's prophecies are not sealed in order to "help people overcome their trials"? Especially since John is directly told "the time is near", which a natural reading (in my opinion) would suggest that "the time" that was "near" was, I dunno, the time of the prophecies he was being told to not seal up?

Revelation 22:12 = Christ says "I am coming soon". How does this mean "this is only an hour of trial, but I'm really coming in the distant future at the final trial"? It seems like "soon" would then be a false promise to the people who He was trying to encourage. Why not just say "I am coming at a day you don't expect" just to relieve us of apparent confusion, if the "soon" is completely irrelevant?

Nihil Obstat
Jan 13th 2009, 06:53 AM
Matthew 10:23 = Your claim is that the "coming of the Son of Man" in this verse is the cross and not the same as the one referred to in Matthew 24 (right?), and you appeal to Daniel 7:13-14 for this. Does that mean the terrible beast of Daniel 7 was defeated at the cross, and if so, how? Also, if this verse is about the crucifixion and not the same "coming" as Matthew 24, why is that Jesus speaks of persecution here exactly the same as He does in Mark 13, which is the parallel to Matthew 24; meaning, if Mark 13 is about "the end-times", and speaks of persecution, and Matthew 10 uses this exact same persecution speech in regards to the "you will not pass through all the towns" bit, why is Matthew 10:23 about the crucifixion yet Mark 13 isn't?

When Jesus says in Matt. 10 that they will not finish going through the cities of Israel with the gospel of the kingdom before the Son of Man comes in His kingdom, He's speaking about His death and not the final judgments described in Rev. 6-20. But in Matt. 24:14 He says that the gospel of the kingdom must be preached to all nations before the end comes. How are these two verses compatible in your view if they are both speaking of 70 AD? God never sends judgment without first sending messengers of repentance...


1 John 2:18 = What does he mean by "this is how we know it is the last hour"?

Do you believe First John was written after 70 AD? Answer that, and then I'll answer you. (Not being a jerk - I just need to know how to respond.)


Rev 1:1 = What does John mean by "the things that must soon take place"? All you said was that you believe it was written in the 90s, but you didn't say anything as to what you thought John meant when he claimed the events "must soon take place". (Note: I've checked out information on this "lordly day" thing, and I can't find any evidence for it... in fact, the one time anyone ever provided a source for me on this "lordly day", I went and found the book, found the chapter they referred to, read it, and saw that it was entirely the opposite of what they said: that the author did claim that it was "probably" Sunday, and they mentioned that the emperor creating a holiday devoted to worship of himself began with Augustus, giving pretty much the entirety of the first-century a chance for this "lordly day" to exist, even if John was using it to refer to a day of emperor-worship. Plus, I think it's just plain dis-credible for us to assume John was using what is (allegedly) a pagan holiday to give an account for when he was writing the book; but this is besides the point...)

About your note, Domitian's lordly day was called by other names, such as "lordy day"; "lordian day"; "imperial day". Check it out. But I talked about why he said this - it may take all three days for you to see what I mean, but I still would appreciate you waiting that long.


Rev 1:3 = What does John mean when he says "the time is near"?

I addressed this one, too.


3:11 = How do you choose when to make a distinction between when Jesus is "coming" as a judge and when He is "coming" for the last time?

When John sees Jesus, He is seen with a golden band about His chest, which is what a judge wore.


22:6-7 = You still haven't explained why the "bookends" of "I am coming soon" and "These things must soon take place" don't refer to the majority of the book. It just seems to me to be a completely arbitrary distinction that you're making. "This coming is a judgment. But this one is literal. But this one is the cross." How do you make the distinction?

No, I did. Re-read my posts, but give it some time, seriously.


Revelation 22:10 = Why is it that Daniel's prophecies are sealed because the fulfillment is far away, yet John's prophecies are not sealed in order to "help people overcome their trials"? Especially since John is directly told "the time is near", which a natural reading (in my opinion) would suggest that "the time" that was "near" was, I dunno, the time of the prophecies he was being told to not seal up?

Why was John told to seal the message of the seven thunders?


Revelation 22:12 = Christ says "I am coming soon". How does this mean "this is only an hour of trial, but I'm really coming in the distant future at the final trial"? It seems like "soon" would then be a false promise to the people who He was trying to encourage. Why not just say "I am coming at a day you don't expect" just to relieve us of apparent confusion, if the "soon" is completely irrelevant?

Jesus' leadership is perfect and amazing. Why, for example, does God tell Habakkuk to write of things still future for us to his generation that saw Babylon destroy Jerusalem? Answer that, and I think you have your answer here.

Talk to you in a few days. - Astro

Diebamted21
Jan 14th 2009, 09:35 AM
Markedward,

Since I alluded to Roeloff's multiple re-arrangement of scripture verses I have trolled through your past posts.
Heretofore preterism has not figured high in my thoughts. In fact I had wondered about much prophesy having already been fulfilled without knowing that 'preterism' was the word used to describe the subject.
Personally my walk of faith has led me to increasingly eschew the text proofing of theology but I have to say that the plausibility of your presentations has earned my respect and admiration and nearly tempts me back into 'Bibliolatry'.

Diebamted21

shepherdsword
Jan 14th 2009, 11:12 AM
By the same token MarkEdward, I on the other hand believe that astrongerthan he has addressed your questions very well. I know that mine have been addressed. His responses have convinced me fully that the it is not biblical to assume that all of those prophecies have already been fulfilled.

RevLogos
Jan 14th 2009, 02:21 PM
About one third of the OP verses talk about this being the last age, the final days, the end of an age.
Most of the other two thirds talk about time being short. Jesus will come soon, time is near, the end is at hand.

In my first response I mainly addressed the end of an age concept when I quote Jesus saying "It is finished." Meaning that all there is to do in building a bridge between God and Man has been done. There are no more covenants to come, no more ages to come, no more prophets. We are in and have been in the final age. Obviously this also implies there will be no "millennial kingdom", no new temple, no sacrifices. Only the final return and judgment remains to be done.

I believe Jesus will come in my lifetime. And I would wager every Christian since Stephan thought the same way. It comes with the territory. We are told to watch, be sober, and be ready but we are also told the time of His coming is none of our business. The original writers I am sure felt the same way.

The verses from Mat 24 and Luk 21 from the Olivet Discourse, Jesus correctly predicts the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem within His generation. But I believe He spoke of the final return as well. But the authors may not have understood this since they were writing before these events. Thus there is a mix of prophesy in this discourse that is hard to split.

I don't think the OP is suggesting full preterism (that would be against forum rules). He could be headed toward post-millennialism. This is not something I buy into at the moment, but it does have something very powerful going for it. It says as Christians we should be working hard for victory on Earth rather than sitting on our hands whining about how bad things are, waiting for Jesus to save us. Indeed there are verses warning us that when Jesus returns, He'd better find us busy carrying out the Great Commission.

Nihil Obstat
Jan 15th 2009, 04:10 AM
You didn't answer some of my questions:

I answered these with a question of my own, to incite meditative prayer, which was my purpose of asking you to wait three days before responding. No prob, though.


1. You've pointed to the crucifixion as being the fulfillment of Matthew 10:23, and you applied Matthew 10:23 to Daniel 7:13-14. Are you saying Matthew 10:23 was speaking of the specific fulfillment of 7:13-14, and if so, was the "terrible beast" of Daniel 7 defeated by the time of Christ's crucifixion?

I'm still studying all this, but one thing I will note here is that three times this fourth and last beast is called "different from all [the other beasts]" (7:7, 19, 23). I believe that just as in ch.2, this final Gentile kingdom (Rome) will come in two stages (cp. Rev. 13:3; 17:10-11), the second time as iron mingled with clay.


2. Is the speech of Matthew 10 about persecution the same or not the same as the portion of Mark 13's statement of persecution in light of "the end-times"?

The same. Relatively, anyway. What Jesus says in Mark 13:9-13 does not contain His phrase in Matt. 10:23, and so I would say that we ought to take it to be a truth that exceeds the bounds of just His own generation. But answer me: If both Matt. 10:23 and 24:14 speak of 70 AD, how can they be compatible?


You don't need to know what I believe about it in order to tell me what you believe. (And I believe you, you're not being a jerk. But I did state multiple times that I wouldn't be answering questions in this.)

I don't understand why you won't answer questions here, given this is a thread where we all are to "get to know" one another. It's a simple question that you are allowed to answer... When do you believe First John was written - before or after 70 AD? But to answer you, I believe "the last hour" speaks of how "the darkness is passing away" (2:8), or as he says just prior to the verse in question, "the world is passing away, and the lust of it" (2:17).


Sure, I can wait. I don't mind if you send me an email, either; I'm a little busier than usual in these days, so it's easier for me to check messages via email than logging onto here and scrolling through stuff.

Yes, I still plan on sending you an email. I have some questions I'd like you to wrestle over.


Could you clarify? I must have not caught it.

In Rev. 1:3, the "time [that] is near" is the need to keep the words of this prophecy, which, again, cannot truly be contained within one generation (the seven letters were also from the Spirit to all churches), yet in its context was originally given to the seven churches listed in Asia in order that they might overcome through Domitian's lordly day.


Was the messenger in Daniel 10 a judge? The messenger in Daniel 10 is described virtually the same as Christ is in Revelation 1, except Daniel gives no indication that this messenger was the pre-incarnate Christ (and I would lean towards the idea that he was a mere angel given his inability to overcome the "prince of Persia").

Many of the angels in Daniel are judges (cp. 4:17; 7:10), so I guess that I don't see why not? I wonder though if there is a difference between one's waist being girded (Dan. 10:5) and one's chest (Rev. 1:13; 15:6)?


I read them a few times over, and I'm still not seeing how you can make a distinction between the various "comings".

I do my best to lay aside my previous beliefs when approaching Scripture, and simply take the text for what it says, given its historical and grammatical contexts.


A) I wouldn't know since I don't know what they said.

B) Try not to avoid answering my question; why was Daniel told to seal his prophecies because their fulfillments were in his distant future but John was told to not seal his prophecies because their fulfillments were "near" and "soon to take place"?

The point of my having answered your question with another question was not to avoid answering it, but because I felt that my question did answer your question. In other words, if the seven thunders (which thunder in between the sixth and seventh trumpets) was an event that was soon to happen, why was John told to seal up their message?


A) I don't see anything in Habakkuk about our future. All I see is Habakkuk crying out to God about his own time's wickedness, and that God was "raising up" the Chaldeans (Nebuchadnezzar and the Chaldeans/Babylonians). Maybe I'm just missing it, but I don't see anything in there that was directed at our future.

Okay, then in John's future. Or Paul's. Let me rephrase the question: Why did Amos, Hosea, Micah, and Isaiah - some of the earliest prophets after Elisha - prophesy of "new" covenant promises which was over half a century away from when they said such things? Why did Haggai prophesy that the "second" temple (which the LORD considered to be the same temple as the first; 2:3) would be a place for the shaken nations to come and receive peace, when the nations weren't shaken in his day, but rather were all already at peace (Zech. 1:11)? Why didn't just Ahaz, but Shear-Jashub as well, live to see the sign of Immanuel (Isa. 7:14)? I could ask many more similar questions, but the point is this: God makes known His covenantal standards, then makes known His covenantal blessings and curses, irregardless of whether or not the ones He speaks to will live to see those days, because He's the God of the living and not of the dead, and He knows that we live in light of how we view eternity. So just as Isaiah prophesied of Cyrus 100 years before he came (Isa. 45:1-4), or as "a man of God" prophesied of Josiah 300 years before he came (1 Ki. 13:1-3), or as God promised to Eve a Seed to crush the head of Satan 6000 years before He came (Gen. 3:15), so too can He use the same method of perfection with John and the book of Revelation.


B) Habakkuk didn't use any time-related language in relation to its fulfillment (that I noticed, at least). John, Jesus, and the messenger in the book, however, are emphatic on using not just any time-related language, but time-related language indicating that it would happen in John's near future.

All the prophets used time-related language. Joel, for example, did more than just imply that when Judah gathered together in fasting, weeping, and mourning, that the new covenant would dawn, yet it didn't happen in his day (due to the majority of Judah ignoring his message). Though this example was contingent on a right response, there are other examples that did not, and yet were expected to occur "soon", such as one I just gave about Eve's Seed, as she believed Abel to be the fulfillment, and after his murder, then Seth was thought to be "the One" (Gen. 4:25). It's not that they were misunderstanding the prophecies, nor as if the Spirit was deceiving those He spoke through - just that the kingdom comes progressively.

- Astro

markedward
Jan 15th 2009, 06:00 AM
I'm still studying all this, but one thing I will note here is that three times this fourth and last beast is called "different from all [the other beasts]" (7:7, 19, 23). I believe that just as in ch.2, this final Gentile kingdom (Rome) will come in two stages (cp. Rev. 13:3; 17:10-11), the second time as iron mingled with clay.Okay. You're still studying you say, but just questions to ask of you while you study:

You've connected Matthew 10:23 ("when the Son of Man comes") with Daniel 7:13-14 ("a Son of Man coming on the clouds"), and you've said that Matthew 10:23 is Christ's crucifixion (or, at least, something before His ascension, as you have said). Daniel 7 as a whole describes the fourth beast as being defeated before or by the time of the Coming of the Son of Man. So even if the fourth beast comes in two "stages", would it not still have to have been defeated by the time of Christ's crucifixion then?


The same. Relatively, anyway. What Jesus says in Mark 13:9-13 does not contain His phrase in Matt. 10:23,So your claim here is that the statement about persecution in Matthew 10:23 is similar to, but a different context from, Mark 13's statement of persecution, correct?

In that case, should we interpret everything that is found in different orders between the gospels as completely different contexts? Luke 17 contains things that Matthew 24 contains, even though the Luke 21 is Matthew 24's parallel. Does that mean that Luke 17's statements are a different context than Matthew 24?

Also, if Matthew 10:23 is about the crucifixion of Christ, then, according to you, the context of the persecution in the previous verses is about the time period before then, right? In that case... were the disciples delivered to courts (10:17), flogged in synagogues (10:17), dragged before governors and kings (10:18), witnessing to Gentiles (10:19), preaching in the Spirit (10:20; before they received it in Acts 2?), betrayed by family members to death (10:21) all before Christ's crucifixion?


I don't understand why you won't answer questions here, given this is a thread where we all are to "get to know" one another.Because I said in my OP that I would not be delving into my own beliefs in this thread. In a PM, or another thread, sure. But I'm mostly restraining myself in order to prevent myself from crossing the line drawn up by the board.


But to answer you, I believe "the last hour" speaks of how "the darkness is passing away" (2:8), or as he says just prior to the verse in question, "the world is passing away, and the lust of it" (2:17).How was "the darkness" or "the world" "passing away" in relation the time you believe he wrote the words?


Yes, I still plan on sending you an email. I have some questions I'd like you to wrestle over.Woot.


In Rev. 1:3, the "time [that] is near" is the need to keep the words of this prophecy, which, again, cannot truly be contained within one generation (the seven letters were also from the Spirit to all churches), yet in its context was originally given to the seven churches listed in Asia in order that they might overcome through Domitian's lordly day.So (from my perspective, admittedly) you're saying that the word "near" is supposed to be interpreted completely different depending on which part of the book you're reading. I.e., "near" only means "near" some of the time?


Many of the angels in Daniel are judges (cp. 4:17; 7:10), so I guess that I don't see why not?4:17 I possibly see angels being interpreted as judges, but I don't see a description of them wearing gold sashes. And I don't see 7:10 as mentioning judges, nor do I see it mentioning angels as judges. I see one Judge, but no golden sash is given in His description.


I wonder though if there is a difference between one's waist being girded (Dan. 10:5) and one's chest (Rev. 1:13; 15:6)?I personally doubt it... it's like arguing over whether Jesus' hand or His wrist was the part nailed to the cross.


I do my best to lay aside my previous beliefs when approaching Scripture, and simply take the text for what it says, given its historical and grammatical contexts.So what is there to differentiate one "I am coming soon" from another "I am coming soon"? The whole book is filled with them, so couldn't they just as easily all be referring to one Coming? Did Jesus teach of multiple comings? Did the apostles?

As examples: When would you say the "I am coming soon" of Revelation 3:11 is supposed to be fulfilled? 22:7? 22:12? 22:20?


The point of my having answered your question with another question was not to avoid answering it, but because I felt that my question did answer your question. In other words, if the seven thunders (which thunder in between the sixth and seventh trumpets) was an event that was soon to happen, why was John told to seal up their message?My assumption is that they were not to be made known. But, there are a number of differences between what Daniel was told and what John was told:

1. Daniel was told to "seal" his prophecies because the fulfillment was in the far future. John was told to "seal" the thunders, but he is given no reason for doing so. In fact...

2. John didn't even write down what the thunder said. Daniel's prophecies were written down; John's weren't.

3. It seems that the direction your pointing at is that the thunders were sealed because their fulfillment wasn't near, correct? But following this logic, wouldn't that directly imply that the rest of the prophecies, from chapters 1-9 and 11-22 were near because they weren't sealed because "the time" was "near"?




Okay, then in John's future. Or Paul's. Let me rephrase the question: Why did Amos, Hosea, Micah, and Isaiah - some of the earliest prophets after Elisha - prophesy of "new" covenant promises which was over half a century away from when they said such things?But did they specifically use "near" and "soon" and "at hand" and such time-restraining language when they were specifically prophesying about Christ or the New Covenant? I'm genuinely asking.


Why did Haggai prophesy that the "second" temple (which the LORD considered to be the same temple as the first; 2:3) would be a place for the shaken nations to come and receive peace, when the nations weren't shaken in his day, but rather were all already at peace (Zech. 1:11)?Admittedly, I have not studied Haggai too many times, but Haggai 2:6-7 says "Yet once more, in a little while ... I will shake all the nations". If Haggai and Zechariah are contemporaenous, and Zechariah 1:11 is indicating a present "rest" at the time they were both writing... then this would simply indicate to me that Haggi was prophesying of a time that was "a little while" in their future, not their present.


Why didn't just Ahaz, but Shear-Jashub as well, live to see the sign of Immanuel (Isa. 7:14)?They did. Isaiah 8. You've talked about taking into context about other verses; what about Isaiah 7:14? The context of that verse was the present-conflict between Syria and Israel with Judah. Specifically, Isaiah states that the son of Isaiah 7:14 would be the sign that Syria and Israel would soon be defeated at the hands of Assyria. The fulfillment is of the birth of the son is in the following chapter. Isaiah directly indicates this by his phrasing in 8:4, paralleling 7:16. This, specifically, is considered one of those "type" fulfillments, where the prophecy had an immediate context and it was immediately fulfilled, but it was a "type", whereas Christ was the "archtype". Ahaz did see the "sign of Immanuel". But he did not see the "archtype" fulfillment.


so too can He use the same method of perfection with John and the book of Revelation.Most of the examples you gave did have direct fulfillments, or never had time-frames applied to them. John's prophecies did.


All the prophets used time-related language. Joel, for example, did more than just imply that when Judah gathered together in fasting, weeping, and mourning, that the new covenant would dawn, yet it didn't happen in his day (due to the majority of Judah ignoring his message).Except, again, Joel uses phrases like "in the last days" and "in those days" when referring to what we would accept as New Covenant era prophecies.


Though this example was contingent on a right response, there are other examples that did not, and yet were expected to occur "soon", such as one I just gave about Eve's Seed, as she believed Abel to be the fulfillment, and after his murder, then Seth was thought to be "the One" (Gen. 4:25). It's not that they were misunderstanding the prophecies, nor as if the Spirit was deceiving those He spoke through - just that the kingdom comes progressively.How did Even expect Abel or Seth to be the fulfillment of Genesis 3:15? Just asking.

Nihil Obstat
Jan 15th 2009, 11:54 AM
I only have time for two short comments:


So even if the fourth beast comes in two "stages", would it not still have to have been defeated by the time of Christ's crucifixion then?

Defeated in the John 12:31-33 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2012:31-33&version=50) sense, not the Rev. 20:10-15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2020:10-15;&version=50;) way.


Because I said in my OP that I would not be delving into my own beliefs in this thread. In a PM, or another thread, sure. But I'm mostly restraining myself in order to prevent myself from crossing the line drawn up by the board.

Ah. Okay, that's wisdom.

Yeah, be looking for an email from me "soon". ;) - Astro

Diebamted21
Jan 15th 2009, 11:12 PM
There is a difference between me asking questions from a preterist perspective and outright teaching/preaching preterism.

Stop accusing me of things. You haven't added to the discussion in any way. I would politely ask that you discuss the verses placed in the OP, discuss how others in this thread have interpreted those verses, or simply read along. All of these "Bibliolatry" accusations are "derailing" the thread.

Sorry bro. not meaning to be accusative.
Perhaps I was wrong in taking your invite to find out what newbies thought about your verses as a spring board to say that I didn't personally see anything other than 'through a glass darkly' about any of them.
However as the originator of the thread you have a right to 'conduct' it and I bow to that.
If however you are interest in what I as a newbie am all about in a more general level (even though I don't think that what I posted was that desperately irrelevant) it's now in: http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1945994#post1945994

Diebamted21

Nihil Obstat
Jan 16th 2009, 04:14 AM
Back for another two...


If Matthew 10:23 is about the crucifixion of Christ, then, according to you, the context of the persecution in the previous verses is about the time period before then, right? In that case... were the disciples delivered to courts (10:17), flogged in synagogues (10:17), dragged before governors and kings (10:18), witnessing to Gentiles (10:19), preaching in the Spirit (10:20; before they received it in Acts 2?), betrayed by family members to death (10:21) all before Christ's crucifixion?

No. As I said, how the testimony of the crucified God would be received by the world from Jesus' cross-carrying disciples will be with a murderous spirit, which, unwittingly, is the predetermined way that the gospel of the kingdom will be preached to all cities and nations. But then Jesus plainly tells His twelve apostles that they will not accomplish this before He comes. I see more of a connection here with Matt. 25 than with Mark 13 (given it's the same book), in the sheep and goats judgment, which is about the cross (and see 10:38). To me, this coming is linked with the coming described in 25:31, which is about the cross (cp. 19:27-30).


How was "the darkness" or "the world" "passing away" in relation to the time you believe he wrote the words?

I don't know. Give me some more time, and I'll get back to you later.

- Astro

markedward
Jan 16th 2009, 06:39 AM
To me, this coming is linked with the coming described in 25:31, which is about the cross.I'm going to summarize 25:31-46 here:

1. Christ comes
2. He sits on His throne
3. All of the angels come with Him
4. He judges people according to what they had done
5. The righteous are given eternal life, the wicked given eternal punishment

You're saying these happened at the cross? Why do not Christ, the apostles, or Paul say this happened at the cross? Why do they speak of Christ coming with the angels (2 Thess. 1:7), and judging people according to what they have done (Rev. 11:18, 20:12, 22:12), and giving rewards according to that judgment (Rev. 11:18, 2 Thess. 1:9, ) as all still in their future at some point, rather than in their past at the cross?

Where do you consider Christ's throne to be? Do you not consider Matthew 25 to be a continuation of Matthew 24? Is Matthew 24's Coming of the Son of Man the same or different from the Coming of the Son of Man in Matthew 25? What makes them different? Does Christ say anything that makes them different?

These are just questions, but maybe they will help you think, or maybe you already have answers to them. And if you don't have time to respond to all of these, that's fine.

Nihil Obstat
Jan 16th 2009, 06:45 PM
I'm going to summarize 25:31-46 here:

1. Christ comes
2. He sits on His throne
3. All of the angels come with Him
4. He judges people according to what they had done
5. The righteous are given eternal life, the wicked given eternal punishment

You're saying these happened at the cross? Why do not Christ, the apostles, or Paul say this happened at the cross? Why do they speak of Christ coming with the angels (2 Thess. 1:7), and judging people according to what they have done (Rev. 11:18, 20:12, 22:12), and giving rewards according to that judgment (Rev. 11:18, 2 Thess. 1:9, ) as all still in their future at some point, rather than in their past at the cross?

Where do you consider Christ's throne to be? Do you not consider Matthew 25 to be a continuation of Matthew 24? Is Matthew 24's Coming of the Son of Man the same or different from the Coming of the Son of Man in Matthew 25? What makes them different? Does Christ say anything that makes them different?

These are just questions, but maybe they will help you think, or maybe you already have answers to them. And if you don't have time to respond to all of these, that's fine.

Yes, I've discussed this in detail here (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=149893) (throughout).

markedward
Jan 16th 2009, 07:22 PM
Yes, I've discussed this in detail here (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=149893) (throughout).Would it be okay if you summarized what you said in that other thread? I don't have too much free time, so it really helps when statements are succinct and available. (Sorry to ask this of you.)

Nihil Obstat
Jan 16th 2009, 09:59 PM
Would it be okay if you summarized what you said in that other thread? I don't have too much free time, so it really helps when statements are succinct and available. (Sorry to ask this of you.)

Hey bud, I'm in the same boat as you. I work 28 hours a week, and with school started up now I'm out of the house another 48 hours a week; and on top of being a daddy a caring for a pregnant wife (and loads of homework and laundry, stacks of dishes and books), I also am a part of leading study groups and coordinating and facilitating children's ministry at our church. It's a wonder I'm on here at all, but I'll do my best to answer this one too.

The best way I can think to put it is this: At Jesus' death He both fulfilled the first covenant and ratified the new, and we are now enabled to keep the law. When anyone breaks the renewed law of Jesus, they are at that time guilty, though they may for a season escape trial, judgment, and consequences. At the cross sin was condemned as wicked, yet it will not be utterly destroyed until at the great white throne. There is a process to judging and imprisoning the guilty, just as there is in vindicating and rewarding the just. For a better understanding, study what a kinsman-redeemer is; it'll prove to be very helpful.

Exegetically though, the post of mine you'll want to read is this one (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1898757&postcount=76). - Astro

markedward
Jan 18th 2009, 09:07 AM
The best way I can think to put it is this: At Jesus' death He both fulfilled the first covenant and ratified the new.When was the first covenant done away with, then?

Nihil Obstat
Jan 18th 2009, 02:25 PM
When was the first covenant done away with, then?

At Jesus' death, the first covenant was fulfilled. To try and fulfill it after His death would be like trying to pay for a car that your family already owns. The author of Hebrews wrote (in 8:13) that the Mosaic covenant was both obsolete (perfect tense) and being made obsolete (present tense), which I liken to Luke 5:39.

Why do you ask?

markedward
Jan 18th 2009, 07:48 PM
At Jesus' death, the first covenant was fulfilled. To try and fulfill it after His death would be like trying to pay for a car that your family already owns. The author of Hebrews wrote (in 8:13) that the Mosaic covenant was both obsolete (perfect tense) and being made obsolete (present tense), which I liken to Luke 5:39.

Why do you ask?Hebrews 8:13 says the Old Covenant "was becoming obsolete" in his present tense, but then he immediately follows this by saying that the Old Covenant would "soon disappear". The language he uses places a specific end to the Old Covenant, not a perpetual existence while continually being made obsolete. If you agree with how I explained this, then when do you think "soon" was for when the Old Covenant was to "disappear"? Was it soon for the author? When did it "disappear", and was there anything to mark its disappearance? Or is the Old Covenant still around and it is supposed to disappear "soon" in relation to us (and if this, why us?), and what will tell us that it disappeared?

Nihil Obstat
Jan 19th 2009, 06:39 AM
Hebrews 8:13 says the Old Covenant "was becoming obsolete" in his present tense, but then he immediately follows this by saying that the Old Covenant would "soon disappear". The language he uses places a specific end to the Old Covenant, not a perpetual existence while continually being made obsolete. If you agree with how I explained this, then when do you think "soon" was for when the Old Covenant was to "disappear"? Was it soon for the author? When did it "disappear", and was there anything to mark its disappearance? Or is the Old Covenant still around and it is supposed to disappear "soon" in relation to us (and if this, why us?), and what will tell us that it disappeared?

No, the Old Covenant was made obsolete at Jesus' death. It was becoming obsolete in the Luke 5:39 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke%205:39&version=50) sense, where people were still (ignorantly) trying to fulfill it. They did so largely, but not entirely, by means of the temple (though the temple is not in itself a bad thing in the New covenant). Jews today still believe that the ratifying of the New covenant is future, and that they are to fulfill Moses' covenant, but will believe so no longer when "He who comes in the name of the Lord" pours out upon them the spirit of grace and supplication (Zech. 12-14). The New covenant is the new law that Heb. 7:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%207:12&version=50) speaks of...

- Astro

markedward
Jan 19th 2009, 06:46 AM
Then how would you say it was supposed to "soon disappear"? When did it "disappear", and how would you define its "disappearance"? And how would you define "soon"?

Nihil Obstat
Jan 19th 2009, 06:16 PM
Then how would you say it was supposed to "soon disappear"? When did it "disappear", and how would you define its "disappearance"? And how would you define "soon"?

I feel that I've answered this question several times in different ways - what are you trying to get at? Would you state plainly your purpose for pressing this point, as I genuinely do not understand your questioning this over and over again. Am I not communicating clear enough in my posts? It was soon to disappear in practice, because the Jews would soon be without both a home land and temple, though it will not disappear from their desire to practice it until Zech. 12-14 is fulfilled. The old wine was gone - gone, I say - yet they did not immediately desire the new. What bearing does this have on our discussion about Matt. 25?

markedward
Jan 19th 2009, 09:27 PM
I was just trying to get you to clarify what you thought, which you did. Thanks.