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Pilgrimtozion
Dec 31st 2008, 09:01 PM
Last night I heard a preacher on the radio talk about the concept of salvation. He began by giving an outline of what salvation really is, listing three main divisions:

1. Separation from the Judgment of sin - justification
2. Separation from the Power of sin - sanctification
3. Separation from the Presence of sin - glorification

I like this outline, because it shows that salvation is not encompassed in a mere moment but is in fact a journey that is not fully complete until glorification takes place. It is not for nothing that the first Christians were called followers of "The Way" (Acts 9:2).

The preacher then proceeded to 1 Corinthians 9:24-27, where Paul states that he disciplines his body and makes it a slave lest, after having preached to others, he himself might not be disqualified. Shockingly, he said that Paul was not referring to our salvation here but merely to our inheritance. We cannot lose our salvation but we can lose our inheritance!

Now within the context of the verse, I have a hard time finding any justification for this conclusion. Both 1 Corinthians 9:24 and Hebrews 12:1 refer to our Christian walk as a 'race' that is to be completed. The material question to me here is this: What does it mean for a man to be disqualified? As far as a race is concerned, it means he is not allowed to complete the race and even if he does, his results will not be counted and he will be treated as though he never competed in the race. In the same way, Paul disciplines himself so that he might not be disqualified in this race of salvation. Paul is very aware that salvation is not a moment but a process, something that is not done and over with by saying a prayer but is only complete when Jesus returns and we are glorified with Him!

Both the Old and New Testament give ample examples of people who started out on "The Way" but never actually made it to the finish line. Paul proceeds in 1 Corinthians 10 to give some examples of those people. In the first five verses of that chapter, Paul states that though the Israelites were baptized, drank spiritual drink and drank spiritual food and drank from the rock, which is Christ, God was still not pleased with them and they were laid low in the wilderness. After listing several sins that these Israelites committed, he says these things have happened as an example for us, then stating that we should be careful not to fall if we think we stand. The whole point Paul is making to the Corinthians here is that the possibility of being disqualified is present.

You might argue that being laid low does not mean to lose their salvation or that falling in 1 Corinthians 10:13 doesn't refer to something more serious than just making a mistake. The context of the verses, however, state differently, and a difference in semantics cannot take away from the gravity of what Paul is saying here.

A race is a race, a way is a way, and we have not arrived until we finish the race or reach our destination.

In discussing this, I would like to stick to this verse and not digress into discussing every verse available on the topic. If you can show me from cross-references that being disqualified does indeed refer to losing your inheritance and not forfeiting your salvation, then please feel free to do so.

I look forward to your input.

9Marksfan
Jan 1st 2009, 09:35 AM
This is a matter that has dominated my thoughts for much of the past year. I almost preached on these verses as a challenging end to a sermon on discipline but ran out of time! But amazingly, a few weeks later, the visiting preacher spoke on them anyway and made the same points I was going to! God must have really wanted our folks to hear that truth!

Yes, the Greek word for "disqualified" (sorry, don't have access to a Greek Lexicon here) means "castaway" or "reprobate" and is always used that way in other NT passages where it appears. As I'm sure you're aware, there are three views on the connection between perseverance and heavenly reward - the radio preacher is classic OSAS and you are correct to reject his teaching.

The other views can be conjoined as follows - if Paul did not persevere to the end, he would be disqualified - lost - despite all he had done. The same applies to all of us. My own position is POTS, many others here would hold to NOSAS - either way, each view keeps us on our toes, whereas the OSAS view of the radio preacher is, I believe, responsible for much of what passes as Western Christianity today - where there is belief without obedience - how many millions are being deceived or deluded into a lost eternity by such teaching only the Day will reveal......:cry:

shepherdsword
Jan 1st 2009, 11:50 AM
My own position is POTS, many others here would hold to NOSAS

What do "POTS" and "NOSAS" stand for?

Whispering Grace
Jan 1st 2009, 03:48 PM
What do "POTS" and "NOSAS" stand for?

"Perseverance of the Saints" and "Not-Once Saved Always Saved"

alethos
Jan 1st 2009, 05:08 PM
In discussing this, I would like to stick to this verse and not digress into discussing every verse available on the topic. If you can show me from cross-references that being disqualified does indeed refer to losing your inheritance and not forfeiting your salvation, then please feel free to do so.

I look forward to your input.

Lets take a look at 1 Cor 9:27

I discipline my body and bring it under strict control, so that after preaching to others, I myself will not be disqualified. (HCSB)

I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. (KJV)

The word disqualified or castaway, depending on the translation, in the Greek is adokimos which carries the following definitions.

adokimos
Thayer Definition:
1) not standing the test, not approved
1a) properly used of metals and coins
2) that which does not prove itself such as it ought
2a) unfit for, unproved, spurious, reprobate

Paul is concerned that his person should be a castaway, (not standing the test, being unfit, or reprobate) I believe he thinks it is possible that he could become unfit for the heavenly reward (v. 24). And in my opinion the heavenly reward is the hope of eternal life.

RogerW
Jan 1st 2009, 05:57 PM
In the same way, Paul disciplines himself so that he might not be disqualified in this race of salvation. Paul is very aware that salvation is not a moment but a process, something that is not done and over with by saying a prayer but is only complete when Jesus returns and we are glorified with Him!

Both the Old and New Testament give ample examples of people who started out on "The Way" but never actually made it to the finish line. Paul proceeds in 1 Corinthians 10 to give some examples of those people. In the first five verses of that chapter, Paul states that though the Israelites were baptized, drank spiritual drink and drank spiritual food and drank from the rock, which is Christ, God was still not pleased with them and they were laid low in the wilderness. After listing several sins that these Israelites committed, he says these things have happened as an example for us, then stating that we should be careful not to fall if we think we stand. The whole point Paul is making to the Corinthians here is that the possibility of being disqualified is present.

You might argue that being laid low does not mean to lose their salvation or that falling in 1 Corinthians 10:13 doesn't refer to something more serious than just making a mistake. The context of the verses, however, state differently, and a difference in semantics cannot take away from the gravity of what Paul is saying here.

A race is a race, a way is a way, and we have not arrived until we finish the race or reach our destination.

In discussing this, I would like to stick to this verse and not digress into discussing every verse available on the topic. If you can show me from cross-references that being disqualified does indeed refer to losing your inheritance and not forfeiting your salvation, then please feel free to do so.

I look forward to your input.

Greetings Pilgrimtozion,

Throughout his epistles, we hear Paul speaking of his total security in Christ, and his absolute assurance of eternal life. Therefore if Paul were now teaching that we must not have this confidence in Christ because there is a possibility that we won't finish the race and receive the crown of everlasting life, then Paul is far too contradictory to follow.

Paul, in this passage is making reference to athletes participating in sporting events. He uses the example of training for every athlete who participates in the games. The athlete must be mindful of the need to disicpline himself in food, drink, pleasures and idleness. He restricts himself to temperance and moderation in all things in order to win a temporary and corruptible crown. But the believer's faith, dedication, temperance and sacrifice are for a higher and nobler purpose; to gain an incorruptible crown (Heb 12:1,2).

Paul doesn't run this race without keeping the goal and destination in mind, but as one who strives to cross the finish line. He says he does not box as a man shadow-boxes, who has no opponent, but only striking out at the air. Paul says he has a real enemy - the FLESH! Therefore he disciplines his flesh, his mind, and his body bringing them into subjection to the Spirit of Christ. Paul is not telling us to do this because if we do not we could lose our salvation, but because believers also know we too have an enemy that is very real - our FLESH! We must subdue the flesh with its desires and infirmities, lest while teaching others, we ourselves should fail the test and prove to be not saved at all...but reprobate.

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Paul implies, if such earnest, self-denying watchfulness over himself be needed still, with all his labors for others, to make his own calling sure, much more is the same needed by the Corinthians, instead of their going, as they do, to the extreme limit of Christian liberty.

Believers will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Instead they will, like Paul examine themselves, and be constantly bringing the flesh under submission of the Spirit in them. In this they will have confidence, as does Paul, that we truly are in Christ, and walking in the Spirit.

Ro 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

1Pe 2:11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul

This is a warning against false presumption, false confidence and indifference to holy conduct and practice. Lacking these things does not mean we will lose our salvation, but proves we are yet reprobates.

Many Blessings,
RW

reformedct
Jan 1st 2009, 06:25 PM
As a believer in eternal security because of this verse:

Those whom he justified these he also glorified

I think Paul was indeed refferring to his own salvation. But I dont believe he was saying a true Christian can lose their salvation.

It is my interpretation that Paul was expressing how he keeps himself in check to make sure he also does not fall away.

This does not mean a true believer can lose salvation. It simply means he was keeping an eye on himself as we all should. We must all make our calling and election sure by making sure we are growing everyday and perservering

We must make sure not to take some verses more seriously than we should. For example Paul said he wish he was cut off so that his Jewish brothers could come to faith. But im sure Paul did not actually want to go to hell for someone else lol


Even though i believe in eternal security, my mindset is just like Paul's. I must make sure that i am also not disqualified. Disqualified simply means not able to recieve because of a lack of a requirement or a violation of a rule. Every unbeliever has been disqualified from the eternal inheritance unless they repent and believe. Those that fall away are also disqualified. However as the Bible says, they went out from us because they were not of us. If they were of us, they would have remained:cool:


God Bless

Butch5
Jan 1st 2009, 07:24 PM
Last night I heard a preacher on the radio talk about the concept of salvation. He began by giving an outline of what salvation really is, listing three main divisions:

1. Separation from the Judgment of sin - justification
2. Separation from the Power of sin - sanctification
3. Separation from the Presence of sin - glorification

I like this outline, because it shows that salvation is not encompassed in a mere moment but is in fact a journey that is not fully complete until glorification takes place. It is not for nothing that the first Christians were called followers of "The Way" (Acts 9:2).

The preacher then proceeded to 1 Corinthians 9:24-27, where Paul states that he disciplines his body and makes it a slave lest, after having preached to others, he himself might not be disqualified. Shockingly, he said that Paul was not referring to our salvation here but merely to our inheritance. We cannot lose our salvation but we can lose our inheritance!

Now within the context of the verse, I have a hard time finding any justification for this conclusion. Both 1 Corinthians 9:24 and Hebrews 12:1 refer to our Christian walk as a 'race' that is to be completed. The material question to me here is this: What does it mean for a man to be disqualified? As far as a race is concerned, it means he is not allowed to complete the race and even if he does, his results will not be counted and he will be treated as though he never competed in the race. In the same way, Paul disciplines himself so that he might not be disqualified in this race of salvation. Paul is very aware that salvation is not a moment but a process, something that is not done and over with by saying a prayer but is only complete when Jesus returns and we are glorified with Him!

Both the Old and New Testament give ample examples of people who started out on "The Way" but never actually made it to the finish line. Paul proceeds in 1 Corinthians 10 to give some examples of those people. In the first five verses of that chapter, Paul states that though the Israelites were baptized, drank spiritual drink and drank spiritual food and drank from the rock, which is Christ, God was still not pleased with them and they were laid low in the wilderness. After listing several sins that these Israelites committed, he says these things have happened as an example for us, then stating that we should be careful not to fall if we think we stand. The whole point Paul is making to the Corinthians here is that the possibility of being disqualified is present.

You might argue that being laid low does not mean to lose their salvation or that falling in 1 Corinthians 10:13 doesn't refer to something more serious than just making a mistake. The context of the verses, however, state differently, and a difference in semantics cannot take away from the gravity of what Paul is saying here.

A race is a race, a way is a way, and we have not arrived until we finish the race or reach our destination.

In discussing this, I would like to stick to this verse and not digress into discussing every verse available on the topic. If you can show me from cross-references that being disqualified does indeed refer to losing your inheritance and not forfeiting your salvation, then please feel free to do so.

I look forward to your input.

No need to cross referenece, you have aleady nailed it in your commnetary.

Butch5
Jan 1st 2009, 07:27 PM
This is a matter that has dominated my thoughts for much of the past year. I almost preached on these verses as a challenging end to a sermon on discipline but ran out of time! But amazingly, a few weeks later, the visiting preacher spoke on them anyway and made the same points I was going to! God must have really wanted our folks to hear that truth!

Yes, the Greek word for "disqualified" (sorry, don't have access to a Greek Lexicon here) means "castaway" or "reprobate" and is always used that way in other NT passages where it appears. As I'm sure you're aware, there are three views on the connection between perseverance and heavenly reward - the radio preacher is classic OSAS and you are correct to reject his teaching.

The other views can be conjoined as follows - if Paul did not persevere to the end, he would be disqualified - lost - despite all he had done. The same applies to all of us. My own position is POTS, many others here would hold to NOSAS - either way, each view keeps us on our toes, whereas the OSAS view of the radio preacher is, I believe, responsible for much of what passes as Western Christianity today - where there is belief without obedience - how many millions are being deceived or deluded into a lost eternity by such teaching only the Day will reveal......:cry:


Well said my friend.

thepenitent
Jan 1st 2009, 07:30 PM
I take a different view with all the above and don't necessarily think this it has to do with salvation at all. I think Paul is talking about his message...his good news. He is saying that if he doesn't practice what he preaches to others then others will "castaway" or "disqualify" what he is saying. He is castaway. Much of chapter 9of 1 Corinthians centers about the theme of practicing the Gospel one preaches (v. 13-14).

Butch5
Jan 1st 2009, 07:47 PM
Greetings Pilgrimtozion,

Throughout his epistles, we hear Paul speaking of his total security in Christ, and his absolute assurance of eternal life. Therefore if Paul were now teaching that we must not have this confidence in Christ because there is a possibility that we won't finish the race and receive the crown of everlasting life, then Paul is far too contradictory to follow.

Paul, in this passage is making reference to athletes participating in sporting events. He uses the example of training for every athlete who participates in the games. The athlete must be mindful of the need to disicpline himself in food, drink, pleasures and idleness. He restricts himself to temperance and moderation in all things in order to win a temporary and corruptible crown. But the believer's faith, dedication, temperance and sacrifice are for a higher and nobler purpose; to gain an incorruptible crown (Heb 12:1,2).

Paul doesn't run this race without keeping the goal and destination in mind, but as one who strives to cross the finish line. He says he does not box as a man shadow-boxes, who has no opponent, but only striking out at the air. Paul says he has a real enemy - the FLESH! Therefore he disciplines his flesh, his mind, and his body bringing them into subjection to the Spirit of Christ. Paul is not telling us to do this because if we do not we could lose our salvation, but because believers also know we too have an enemy that is very real - our FLESH! We must subdue the flesh with its desires and infirmities, lest while teaching others, we ourselves should fail the test and prove to be not saved at all...but reprobate.

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Paul implies, if such earnest, self-denying watchfulness over himself be needed still, with all his labors for others, to make his own calling sure, much more is the same needed by the Corinthians, instead of their going, as they do, to the extreme limit of Christian liberty.

Believers will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Instead they will, like Paul examine themselves, and be constantly bringing the flesh under submission of the Spirit in them. In this they will have confidence, as does Paul, that we truly are in Christ, and walking in the Spirit.

Ro 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

1Pe 2:11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul

This is a warning against false presumption, false confidence and indifference to holy conduct and practice. Lacking these things does not mean we will lose our salvation, but proves we are yet reprobates.

Many Blessings,
RW


So, are you saying, Paul has total assurance of his salvation, yet admits that after preaching to all the others, he may still be a reprobate and not saved?

You said,


Rogerw---Throughout his epistles, we hear Paul speaking of his total security in Christ, and his absolute assurance of eternal life.

Paul speaks of his total assurance, then you said,


Rogerw---Paul says he has a real enemy - the FLESH! Therefore he disciplines his flesh, his mind, and his body bringing them into subjection to the Spirit of Christ. Paul is not telling us to do this because if we do not we could lose our salvation, but because believers also know we too have an enemy that is very real - our FLESH! We must subdue the flesh with its desires and infirmities, lest while teaching others, we ourselves should fail the test and prove to be not saved at all...but reprobate.


First you said Paul has assurance of his salvation, yet here you say, If Paul doesn't keep his body under control, he will prove that he is not saved.

If Paul is not saved how can he be an apostles of Christ?

Did Christ send out an apostle who was not saved?

RogerW
Jan 1st 2009, 10:29 PM
So, are you saying, Paul has total assurance of his salvation, yet admits that after preaching to all the others, he may still be a reprobate and not saved?

No!



First you said Paul has assurance of his salvation, yet here you say, If Paul doesn't keep his body under control, he will prove that he is not saved.

If Paul is not saved how can he be an apostles of Christ?

Did Christ send out an apostle who was not saved?

Paul has complete confidence and assurance...he knows without doubting that he will complete the race set before him, and receive the crown of everlasting life. He makes this blessed assurance abundantly clear throughout his epistles.

Paul is NOT writing this as a warning for himself, he is writing to the Corinthian church, and anyone else who professes to be in Christ, but who does not bring the flesh into submission to the Holy Spirit. When one is controlled by the flesh instead of the Spirit they profess to possess, it is made manifest they do NOT possess the Holy Spirit at all; i.e. they are NOT SAVED! Paul is not concerned that some in the church may fall away and lose their salvation, he is concerned that though they profess saving faith, they are shown to be in unbelief because of factions, divisions, open sin, intellectualism, and all sorts of ideas and wrong practices allowed into their midst.

Paul uses the example of the Jews, who enjoyed great favor and privilege, but by their sin, idolatry and rebellion brought the judgment of God upon themselves. They thought they could live in the flesh, safe, secure and above their sins. These are an example to us. The punishment inflicted upon them was designed as instruction for us to avoid living like the world, but still believing we are secure in Christ. Through their punishment Paul seeks to warn us to avoid like sins in the flesh, because to live by the flesh is to die.

Commentary by Simon J. Kistemaker

"Paul places himself before his readers as an example. he controls his lifestyle in such a way that no one can accuse him of preaching the gospel while contradicting it by the life he leads. Paul exerts himself physically and mentally for teh benefit of the gospel; he shows his listeners that what he preaches to them is reality in his personal life."

"God elects a person in Christ and grants him or her the assurance of salvation. Conversely, God expects the believer in a test of faith to demonstrate a sincere desire to know His will, to obey His commands, to be thankful for His gift of salvation, to love God and one's neighbor, to have faith in God and hope to overcome trials. If the Christian's desire is cold and his heart callous, does he run the risk of losing his salvation? Paul does not teach that God's electing love exempts the believer from all responsibility and that without a test of faith God grants him or her the crown of eternal life. Not at all, for Paul exhorts the believers to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling, becuase it is God who works in them to will and to work (Ph 2:12-13). Could Paul himself fall from grace and be disqualified? No, because he spared no effort to serve the Lord, preach the gospel, and live honorably before God and man. Elsewhere Paul warns the Corinthians to examine themselves so that they will not fail the test (see 2Co 13:5-7). Then he adds tha he and others have not failed it. Near the end of his life, Paul writes that he will receive the crown of righteousness that is in store for him (2Ti 4:8)."

2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Many Blessings,
RW

reformedct
Jan 1st 2009, 10:54 PM
honestly we can debate this all day. Some people will not let go to what they believe because they believe that to be true. So we can argue and debate and pull up Scripture, but if we are not open to considering the poistions and opinions of others to see if maybe we are wrong what is the use??


i believe in eternal security

but i try to ALWAYS be open to the chance that maybe im wrong, and hear the case from those who believe conditional security. Through listening to others and reading Scripture for myself, i still believe in the security to the believer


This is what it boils down to:

Both eternal/conditional security believers agree that we must perservere

Eternal security believes that ultimately it is God who will cause us to perservere, because hose whom He justified these He also glorified, and He is at work in us, and He will be faithful to complete His work in us

Coditional security basically believes that man has the final say on if he will be saved.

Those who believe in conditional security are not crazy imo, because they are mannny verses that would seem to say a true Christian can lose their salvation, so if someone believes in conditional security i wouldnt go as far to scream heretic, but on the other hand i also believe conditional security is indeed false. Because salvation belongs to the Lord. It is His doing.

But either way, if you want to be strenghtened in your faith, please consider the chance that maybe you are wrong and reading things into Scripture that are not there. Take a good look at ALL the Scriptures that conflict with your beliefs. That is what i try to do. Not with the intention to manipulate the scriptures but honestly just read them at face value and not add things between the lines that are not said.


For those that believe in conditional security i would ask,

when the Bible says those whom He justified, these He also glorified, what does this mean to you? what do you think it means in terms of conditional security?

please understand that i am not trying to attack anybody here, just saying we should be open and consider that maybe what we think is not really proven by Scripture but rather assumed

God Bless

Butch5
Jan 2nd 2009, 02:14 AM
No!



Paul has complete confidence and assurance...he knows without doubting that he will complete the race set before him, and receive the crown of everlasting life. He makes this blessed assurance abundantly clear throughout his epistles.

Paul is NOT writing this as a warning for himself, he is writing to the Corinthian church, and anyone else who professes to be in Christ, but who does not bring the flesh into submission to the Holy Spirit. When one is controlled by the flesh instead of the Spirit they profess to possess, it is made manifest they do NOT possess the Holy Spirit at all; i.e. they are NOT SAVED! Paul is not concerned that some in the church may fall away and lose their salvation, he is concerned that though they profess saving faith, they are shown to be in unbelief because of factions, divisions, open sin, intellectualism, and all sorts of ideas and wrong practices allowed into their midst.

Paul uses the example of the Jews, who enjoyed great favor and privilege, but by their sin, idolatry and rebellion brought the judgment of God upon themselves. They thought they could live in the flesh, safe, secure and above their sins. These are an example to us. The punishment inflicted upon them was designed as instruction for us to avoid living like the world, but still believing we are secure in Christ. Through their punishment Paul seeks to warn us to avoid like sins in the flesh, because to live by the flesh is to die.

Commentary by Simon J. Kistemaker

"Paul places himself before his readers as an example. he controls his lifestyle in such a way that no one can accuse him of preaching the gospel while contradicting it by the life he leads. Paul exerts himself physically and mentally for teh benefit of the gospel; he shows his listeners that what he preaches to them is reality in his personal life."

"God elects a person in Christ and grants him or her the assurance of salvation. Conversely, God expects the believer in a test of faith to demonstrate a sincere desire to know His will, to obey His commands, to be thankful for His gift of salvation, to love God and one's neighbor, to have faith in God and hope to overcome trials. If the Christian's desire is cold and his heart callous, does he run the risk of losing his salvation? Paul does not teach that God's electing love exempts the believer from all responsibility and that without a test of faith God grants him or her the crown of eternal life. Not at all, for Paul exhorts the believers to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling, becuase it is God who works in them to will and to work (Ph 2:12-13). Could Paul himself fall from grace and be disqualified? No, because he spared no effort to serve the Lord, preach the gospel, and live honorably before God and man. Elsewhere Paul warns the Corinthians to examine themselves so that they will not fail the test (see 2Co 13:5-7). Then he adds tha he and others have not failed it. Near the end of his life, Paul writes that he will receive the crown of righteousness that is in store for him (2Ti 4:8)."

2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Many Blessings,
RW

How then would Paul be disqualified?

Butch5
Jan 2nd 2009, 03:05 AM
honestly we can debate this all day. Some people will not let go to what they believe because they believe that to be true. So we can argue and debate and pull up Scripture, but if we are not open to considering the poistions and opinions of others to see if maybe we are wrong what is the use??
i believe in eternal security
but i try to ALWAYS be open to the chance that maybe im wrong, and hear the case from those who believe conditional security. Through listening to others and reading Scripture for myself, i still believe in the security to the believer
This is what it boils down to:
Both eternal/conditional security believers agree that we must perservere
Eternal security believes that ultimately it is God who will cause us to perservere, because hose whom He justified these He also glorified, and He is at work in us, and He will be faithful to complete His work in us
Coditional security basically believes that man has the final say on if he will be saved.
Those who believe in conditional security are not crazy imo, because they are mannny verses that would seem to say a true Christian can lose their salvation, so if someone believes in conditional security i wouldnt go as far to scream heretic, but on the other hand i also believe conditional security is indeed false. Because salvation belongs to the Lord. It is His doing.
But either way, if you want to be strenghtened in your faith, please consider the chance that maybe you are wrong and reading things into Scripture that are not there. Take a good look at ALL the Scriptures that conflict with your beliefs. That is what i try to do. Not with the intention to manipulate the scriptures but honestly just read them at face value and not add things between the lines that are not said.
For those that believe in conditional security i would ask,
when the Bible says those whom He justified, these He also glorified, what does this mean to you? what do you think it means in terms of conditional security?
please understand that i am not trying to attack anybody here, just saying we should be open and consider that maybe what we think is not really proven by Scripture but rather assumed
God Bless


I believe I have already addressed those verses. They are in Romans 8, verses 29 and 30. Notice all of the verbs are past tense, this whole sequence is a completed act of God. It has already been accomplished, the word glorified is not speaking of a future glorification that is certain. It is speaking of a past glorification that is already complete. Verses 29 and 30, are the evidence to prove verse 28. Paul is telling the persecuted Christians at Rome, that God will work everything for their good. He tells them to look to the past at what God has already done as proof that He will work all things for good on their behalf. Paul says, for those He (God) foreknew He predestined. The Greek word for foreknew is "Proginosko", Pro, meaning before and Ginosko, meaning know. So, who are these people that God knew before. There are actually two questions that need to be addressed here, One is, who are these people, and the other is, God knew them before what or when? Let's deal with the second question first as it will bear on the first. Before what or when? Paul says those God knew before. He gives us no descriptive terms, therefore we can only conclude that Paul is referring to his present time. So Paul is basically saying those God knew before right now (the present in Paul's day). Those God knew before the time that Paul was writing his epistle to the Romans. Many will say that this is a reference to a time before the foundation of the world, however there is absolutely nothing in the context of this passage that warrants that interpretation, or even hints at it. So, now that we have established the what and when, let's deal with the other question. Who were these people the God knew before Paul was writing his letter to the Romans? We know from the previous verse that they loved God, so, these would be people such as Abraham, Issac, Jacob, David, etc. They all loved God. Now, let's apply this to the Scripture verses. Paul says in verse 29, those God foreknew, He predestined, or predetermined, to be conformed to the image of His Son. These same people God called. The Greek word translated called is also translated 'to invite'. So, who did God call? Let's look back at verse 28,

Romans 8:28 ( KJV ) 28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

The called are those who love God. Paul says that God will work all things together for good for those who love God. To prove this point to the Christians at Rome, Paul makes another statement, He says,

Romans 8:29-30 ( KJV ) 29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

God has done all of these things for Abraham, Issac, Jacob, David, etc. He has called, justified, and glorified, them. That is why all of the verbs are in the past tense. God has already done them. Paul is saying to the Christians at Rome look, God had done this for them, He will do it for you also.

markdrums
Jan 2nd 2009, 03:46 AM
I may have misunderstood the context of the question, so forgive me if I'm a little off-track... ;)

The theme I picked up, has to do with salvation... and the qualifiers / disqualifiers..?

Here's the example I ususally share with people when it comes to the question of salvation, and at what point are we saved / can be saved?

When Jesus was on the cross, there was another man hagning next to him.....Luk 23:42 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Luk&c=23&v=43&t=KJV#comm/42) And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.


Luk 23:43 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Luk&c=23&v=43&t=KJV#comm/43) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
This man understood & believed with his heart who Jesus was. It didn't take anything but his honest realization & belief upon the messiah.
His sins were forgiven. Paid in full.

As far as "OSAS" goes..... My opinion is this:
What does "SAVED" mean? Does it mean a temporary, conditional rescue? Or does it mean "Saved / Safe / Secure" ?

People often cite Judas as an example when they talk about "losing salvation". But Judas was never saved in the first place. Jesus knew the heart & motivation of Judas from the very beginning.
Basically, Judas is an example of how God can use even the most wretched people, when it comes to spreading the gospel.
:)

We ALL struggle on a daily basis. We ALL continually fall short of God's righteousness. But, with the blood of our substitute spotless sacrificial Lamb, our sins are forgiven.
If we make a willful choice with our hearts, to accept the gift of salvation offered to us, we ARE forgiven & SAVED. PERIOD.

We'll still stumble & stray from the path from time to time.... but because GOD knows OUR hearts, he'll keep us in his hand.... an NOBODY can snatch us from him.

** Side note- This is entirely different than choosing to "give up" your salvation. But again, who is stronger? Us? or GOD?
If we CHOOSE to give up our salvation, and we turn our hearts away from God, were we ever really saved at all? Or were we like Judas?

:hmm:

Butch5
Jan 2nd 2009, 03:57 AM
I may have misunderstood the context of the question, so forgive me if I'm a little off-track... ;)

The theme I picked up, has to do with salvation... and the qualifiers / disqualifiers..?

Here's the example I ususally share with people when it comes to the question of salvation, and at what point are we saved / can be saved?

When Jesus was on the cross, there was another man hagning next to him.....Luk 23:42 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Luk&c=23&v=43&t=KJV#comm/42) And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.


Luk 23:43 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Luk&c=23&v=43&t=KJV#comm/43) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
This man understood & believed with his heart who Jesus was. It didn't take anything but his honest realization & belief upon the messiah.
His sins were forgiven. Paid in full.

As far as "OSAS" goes..... My opinion is this:
What does "SAVED" mean? Does it mean a temporary, conditional rescue? Or does it mean "Saved / Safe / Secure" ?

People often cite Judas as an example when they talk about "losing salvation". But Judas was never saved in the first place. Jesus knew the heart & motivation of Judas from the very beginning.
Basically, Judas is an example of how God can use even the most wretched people, when it comes to spreading the gospel.
:)

We ALL struggle on a daily basis. We ALL continually fall short of God's righteousness. But, with the blood of our substitute spotless sacrificial Lamb, our sins are forgiven.
If we make a willful choice with our hearts, to accept the gift of salvation offered to us, we ARE forgiven & SAVED. PERIOD.

We'll still stumble & stray from the path from time to time.... but because GOD knows OUR hearts, he'll keep us in his hand.... an NOBODY can snatch us from him.

** Side note- This is entirely different than choosing to "give up" your salvation. But again, who is stronger? Us? or GOD?
If we CHOOSE to give up our salvation, and we turn our hearts away from God, were we ever really saved at all? Or were we like Judas?

:hmm:

Hi Markdrums,

Could you please supply some Scripture to support you position regarding Judas?

Lars777
Jan 2nd 2009, 04:29 AM
Do you not know that in a race all the runners compete, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain in it. Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. Well, I do not run aimlessly, I do not box as one beating the air; but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified. (1 Corinthians 9:24-27)





All this is built around the figure of an athletic contest -- a race. This was a familiar thing to these believers in Corinth. Every three years the Isthmian Games (very much like the Olympic Games we are familiar with, which were also held in Greece), were held right outside the city.

If you go to Corinth you can still see the areas where the races were run. The starting blocks where the athletes started out the races are still embedded in the stones. Paul is using this figure, because, to him, life is a race like that.

These Corinthians knew that every athlete who participated in the races had to take an oath that they had been training for 10 months, and that they had given up certain delightful foods in their diet to enable them to endure the race.

They had subjected themselves to rather rigorous discipline in order to win. Paul says all that they are winning is just a fading, pine wreath, but, in the race we are running, the prize, the wreath, is an imperishable one.



He sees life this way. It's aim, as Paul understood it, is that we are here to run the race of life in order to be a useful and a pleasing instrument of God, to be used whenever and wherever he wants to use us.

That is Paul's objective. When he woke up in the morning that is what was first in his thoughts; that is what set the tone of his day. He was ready to give up certain indulgences, if necessary, which were perfectly all right and proper for him at a given time.

If they interfered with his objective to be what God wanted him to be, Paul said he would be happy to give them up. For him the great objective was to win the prize, which was the sense of delight that he was being used by God. I wonder how many of us have that objective?

Sooner or later every one of us has to ask the question, "What am I here for anyhow? Through the normal, natural processes of procreation, why did I appear on the earth here in this scene, in this part of the world, at this time in history?" And, of course, the answer from the Bible is, God intends to use you.

He wants you. He made you. He designed you with all the peculiar abilities you have and the unique talents and gifts he has given you that he might use you and that you might be useful and pleasing to him.

Now in this figure of a race that Paul uses, it is obvious you cannot do that if there is no self-discipline. There is always something about life that tends to derail you if you let it.

There are temptations to turn aside, to give up, to rest on your laurels, to sit back and let life go on and enjoy yourself. But that will sabotage your Christian effectiveness. That is what Paul is talking about.

People who really want something always give some evidence of that fact. People who really desire something with the whole of their being do not sit down passively waiting for it to come. And that applies to us in this matter.

That, basically, is what Paul is saying. He is saying in his own life he did that. He limited his indulgences. He refused to give way to intemperance or to be lazy. He gave himself to what God wanted him to do. He worked at it and took time in planning in order to accomplish it.



Here at Corinth they were going in for the dependence, the indulgence angle of things, letting God do it all. But Paul says, "You will never win that way. If you are not willing to give up some things and to press toward the mark, to focus your life on a single objective, you will never win.

You will find yourself ultimately disqualified." There is that word. Paul says, "It can happen to me. I preach all this to others, and if I just preach it, it shows I understand it, but if I do not do it I too can end up disqualified."

Many people have been troubled by that word, because in the King James Version it is translated "castaway." That sounds as though you lose your salvation, but Paul is not talking about that; that never was a question with him.

He understood that when there has come a new birth there is a new life style and an introduction into a new kingdom, and that this cannot be reversed -- you do not lose salvation.

What he was afraid of, and what motivated him to keep going every day, was the fear that he might be "disqualified" -- lose his ministry, lose his opportunity to serve.

This great apostle, who understood life so clearly, always lived in the awareness that there is coming a day when, as he said, the sons of God will be revealed, when all the world will see what the reality of life is and all the universe will bow before the Lord Jesus and every tongue proclaim him as Lord.

All the population of the earth in all its ages will be there, and they will be thinking back through their life, "What did I do that would count toward the glory of God?" That is what will be of value then.

All the self-indulgences, all the little times of giving way to laziness and so on, will be looked upon with shame at that moment. Everybody will want to see how much of your life was given to the usefulness for which God had created you.

Paul is remembering that, and he does not want to be disqualified. To him life means service and delight in giving himself for the cause of God. That is what he wants.

He is afraid that God will take it away, that too much self-indulgence of the "good life" will trap him, that he will fall into some temptation and end up on the shelf.

alethos
Jan 2nd 2009, 01:13 PM
but i try to ALWAYS be open to the chance that maybe im wrong

Take a good look at ALL the Scriptures that conflict with your beliefs. That is what i try to do. Not with the intention to manipulate the scriptures but honestly just read them at face value and not add things between the lines that are not said.

Glad to hear you believe there is a possibility you could be wrong. That sort of person is teachable. So here is something for you to take time to study.

If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown aside like a branch and he withers. They gather them, throw them into the fire, and they are burned. (John 15:6)

I'd say thats pretty clear on the subject under discussion..

reformedct
Jan 2nd 2009, 03:54 PM
Glad to hear you believe there is a possibility you could be wrong. That sort of person is teachable. So here is something for you to take time to study.

If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown aside like a branch and he withers. They gather them, throw them into the fire, and they are burned. (John 15:6)

I'd say thats pretty clear on the subject under discussion..

thank you for the compliment. When i personally see Scriptures like these i remember this one:

They went out from us because they were not of us. If they were of us they would have remained

So yes we must remain or be cut off. But also the Bible turns around and says that those who dont remain were not of us. Those who are of us will remain

also, those whom he justified these he also glorified

alethos
Jan 2nd 2009, 04:10 PM
thank you for the compliment. When i personally see Scriptures like these i remember this one:

They went out from us because they were not of us. If they were of us they would have remained

So yes we must remain or be cut off. But also the Bible turns around and says that those who dont remain were not of us. Those who are of us will remain

also, those whom he justified these he also glorified

Those in 1 John 2:19 never were of us. Those in John 15 were of us.

1 John 2:19 plainly tells us that those who went out from us were never of us. Those mentioned in John were of us. John 15:2 plainly tells us they were in Him, and if anyone is in Him, they certainly are of us. Then John 15:6 plainly teaches that if they don't continue to remain in Him, they will be cast forth as a branch, and become withered; and gathered, and cast into the fire, and burned.
So what you have is two separate sets of Scripture referring to different sorts of persons.
Conclusion .... 1 John 2:19 cannot be cross referenced with John 15. They deal with two different sorts of people.

-------------------------------------

Below is a bit of helpful commentary

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be manifest that they were not all of us."

"1 John 2;19 indeed does deal with those who never were saved to begin with. However it does not deal with a person who was genuinely saved, and then later departed from the faith.

"While it is a fact that there are many who wear the name of Christian who are not really believers at all, this does not prove that those who defect from the faith were never genuine in the estimate of their salvation. Individuals use this specific application of 1 John to certain individuals as a blanket answer to any and all situations. The context of the verse in question is dealing with the false teachers who had infiltrated the church in which John is writing to. They wore the label "Christian," but it was the Gnostic version of Christianity.

These heretics in this Christian assembly were never truly converted. and the assertion that many make that these "anti-Christs" were never believers as evidenced by their departure. Even if we hold to this interpretation of this passage, we do not have any warrant to make a universal application outside of this specific scenario. To make every case of apostasy outside of the situation that John addresses to mean that certain people were never saved could not be proved from this singular text. The passage does not say directly, or indirectly, that a true believer cannot fall away. To draw that this verse proves that you cannot fall away and be lost if you are a believer is a mere assumption and theological interjection.

It is also evident from the Scriptures and experience that people who have had a vital and radical conversion to Christ at a certain point in their lives have abandoned their faith later on. This is partially evidenced in the constant exhortations and warnings to believers in Scripture that they must abide, continue, endure to the end, remain, and to avoid departing, apostasy, and not to drift away. These exhortations assert real commands and possibilities. If we were unable to fall away, then these commands and exhortations are useless. It would imply that God is confused about this issue.

We are to believe what the whole of Scripture is teaching us, and not to build what we believe about any issue upon any singular verse."

reformedct
Jan 2nd 2009, 04:16 PM
Those in 1 John 2:19 never were of us. Those in John 15 were of us.

1 John 2:19 plainly tells us that those who went out from us were never of us. Those mentioned in John were of us. John 15:2 plainly tells us they were in Him, and if anyone is in Him, they certainly are of us. Then John 15:6 plainly teaches that if they don't continue to remain in Him, they will be cast forth as a branch, and become withered; and gathered, and cast into the fire, and burned.
So what you have is two separate sets of Scripture referring to different sorts of persons.
Conclusion .... 1 John 2:19 cannot be cross referenced with John 15. They deal two different sorts of people.

-------------------------------------

Below is a bit of helpful commentary

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be manifest that they were not all of us."

"1 John 2;19 indeed does deal with those who never were saved to begin with. However it does not deal with a person who was genuinely saved, and then later departed from the faith.

"While it is a fact that there are many who wear the name of Christian who are not really believers at all, this does not prove that those who defect from the faith were never genuine in the estimate of their salvation. Individuals use this specific application of 1 John to certain individuals as a blanket answer to any and all situations. The context of the verse in question is dealing with the false teachers who had infiltrated the church in which John is writing to. They wore the label "Christian," but it was the Gnostic version of Christianity.

These heretics in this Christian assembly were never truly converted. and the assertion that many make that these "anti-Christs" were never believers as evidenced by their departure. Even if we hold to this interpretation of this passage, we do not have any warrant to make a universal application outside of this specific scenario. To make every case of apostasy outside of the situation that John addresses to mean that certain people were never saved could not be proved from this singular text. The passage does not say directly, or indirectly, that a true believer cannot fall away. To draw that this verse proves that you cannot fall away and be lost if you are a believer is a mere assumption and theological interjection.

It is also evident from the Scriptures and experience that people who have had a vital and radical conversion to Christ at a certain point in their lives have abandoned their faith later on. This is partially evidenced in the constant exhortations and warnings to believers in Scripture that they must abide, continue, endure to the end, remain, and to avoid departing, apostasy, and not to drift away. These exhortations assert real commands and possibilities. If we were unable to fall away, then these commands and exhortations are useless. It would imply that God is confused about this issue.

We are to believe what the whole of Scripture is teaching us, and not to build what we believe about any issue upon any singular verse."


thank you for the commentary. I will definetly be looking into this later today

RogerW
Jan 2nd 2009, 05:05 PM
Those in 1 John 2:19 never were of us. Those in John 15 were of us.

1 John 2:19 plainly tells us that those who went out from us were never of us. Those mentioned in John were of us. John 15:2 plainly tells us they were in Him, and if anyone is in Him, they certainly are of us. Then John 15:6 plainly teaches that if they don't continue to remain in Him, they will be cast forth as a branch, and become withered; and gathered, and cast into the fire, and burned.
So what you have is two separate sets of Scripture referring to different sorts of persons.
Conclusion .... 1 John 2:19 cannot be cross referenced with John 15. They deal with two different sorts of people.

Is not Israel repeatedly depicted as a branch, even the vineyard of the Lord of Hosts is the house of Israel:

Isa 5:7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.

Jeremiah laments that God had planted them an excellent variety, yet they had turned into a foreign vine by their unfaithfulness and their joylessness:

Jer 2:21 Yet I had planted thee a noble vine, wholly a right seed: how then art thou turned into the degenerate plant of a strange vine unto me?

Hosea cries "Israel is a vacant vine. The fruit is equivalent to it":

Ho 10:1 Israel is an empty vine, he bringeth forth fruit unto himself: according to the multitude of his fruit he hath increased the altars; according to the goodness of his land they have made goodly images.

Christ is the True Vine. The fruitless branches, those who remain not in Him, are taken away.

Ro 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Ro 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

His own are cleansed by belief of the truth. Judas Iscariot was chosen by Christ, one of the twelve, one of His own, yet he was never cleansed.

Joh 13:10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
Joh 13:11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.

There are many that appear to be in Christ (Judas, Simon Magus, Demas and others) who appear outwardly cleansed, but they never bear spiritual fruit - love, joy, peace, etc. (Gal 5:22). Religious duties (like that of the Pharisees) and what men call fruit may be produced without any true spiritual union with Christ.

Lu 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

The professors are dead branches (like the majority of the nation) which are exposed and eventually taken away. The true branches which are savingly rooted in Christ by the Father's will and through genuine faith not only bear spiritual fruit, but they are constantly pruned, cleansed and cared for by the Father through trial, teaching and afflictions so that they may grow and bring forth more fruit (Ps 119:71; James 1:2-4; 1Pe 1:7). The fruitless branches (like the nation) are never 'in Christ' by grace through faith. They only appear to be.

Many Blessings,
RW

alethos
Jan 2nd 2009, 06:45 PM
Is not Israel repeatedly depicted as a branch, even the vineyard of the Lord of Hosts is the house of Israel:

Isa 5:7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.

Jeremiah laments that God had planted them an excellent variety, yet they had turned into a foreign vine by their unfaithfulness and their joylessness:

Jer 2:21 Yet I had planted thee a noble vine, wholly a right seed: how then art thou turned into the degenerate plant of a strange vine unto me?

Hosea cries "Israel is a vacant vine. The fruit is equivalent to it":

Ho 10:1 Israel is an empty vine, he bringeth forth fruit unto himself: according to the multitude of his fruit he hath increased the altars; according to the goodness of his land they have made goodly images.

Christ is the True Vine. The fruitless branches, those who remain not in Him, are taken away.

Ro 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Ro 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

His own are cleansed by belief of the truth. Judas Iscariot was chosen by Christ, one of the twelve, one of His own, yet he was never cleansed.

Joh 13:10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
Joh 13:11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.

There are many that appear to be in Christ (Judas, Simon Magus, Demas and others) who appear outwardly cleansed, but they never bear spiritual fruit - love, joy, peace, etc. (Gal 5:22). Religious duties (like that of the Pharisees) and what men call fruit may be produced without any true spiritual union with Christ.

Lu 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

The professors are dead branches (like the majority of the nation) which are exposed and eventually taken away. The true branches which are savingly rooted in Christ by the Father's will and through genuine faith not only bear spiritual fruit, but they are constantly pruned, cleansed and cared for by the Father through trial, teaching and afflictions so that they may grow and bring forth more fruit (Ps 119:71; James 1:2-4; 1Pe 1:7). The fruitless branches (like the nation) are never 'in Christ' by grace through faith. They only appear to be.

Many Blessings,
RW

And your point is?

Pilgrimtozion
Jan 2nd 2009, 06:47 PM
Greetings Pilgrimtozion,

Throughout his epistles, we hear Paul speaking of his total security in Christ, and his absolute assurance of eternal life. Therefore if Paul were now teaching that we must not have this confidence in Christ because there is a possibility that we won't finish the race and receive the crown of everlasting life, then Paul is far too contradictory to follow.

Paul, in this passage is making reference to athletes participating in sporting events. He uses the example of training for every athlete who participates in the games. The athlete must be mindful of the need to disicpline himself in food, drink, pleasures and idleness. He restricts himself to temperance and moderation in all things in order to win a temporary and corruptible crown. But the believer's faith, dedication, temperance and sacrifice are for a higher and nobler purpose; to gain an incorruptible crown (Heb 12:1,2).

Paul doesn't run this race without keeping the goal and destination in mind, but as one who strives to cross the finish line. He says he does not box as a man shadow-boxes, who has no opponent, but only striking out at the air. Paul says he has a real enemy - the FLESH! Therefore he disciplines his flesh, his mind, and his body bringing them into subjection to the Spirit of Christ. Paul is not telling us to do this because if we do not we could lose our salvation, but because believers also know we too have an enemy that is very real - our FLESH! We must subdue the flesh with its desires and infirmities, lest while teaching others, we ourselves should fail the test and prove to be not saved at all...but reprobate.

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Paul implies, if such earnest, self-denying watchfulness over himself be needed still, with all his labors for others, to make his own calling sure, much more is the same needed by the Corinthians, instead of their going, as they do, to the extreme limit of Christian liberty.

Believers will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Instead they will, like Paul examine themselves, and be constantly bringing the flesh under submission of the Spirit in them. In this they will have confidence, as does Paul, that we truly are in Christ, and walking in the Spirit.

Ro 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

1Pe 2:11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul

This is a warning against false presumption, false confidence and indifference to holy conduct and practice. Lacking these things does not mean we will lose our salvation, but proves we are yet reprobates.

Many Blessings,
RW

In other words, you are saying that Paul beats his body into submission so that he will prove himself to be a true believer - that if he didn't, he would show himself not to be a follower of Christ and never having been saved in the first place?

I have problems with this simply because it nullifies the meaning of disqualification. Paul was running the race in the assumption he was a believer but might have turned out to be mistaken? That doesn't sound like disqualification - that sounds like being 'off track'! I find your conclusion hard to solidify from the context, especially when we take another look at the next chapter. The Israelites were Israelites, they were on their way to the Promised Land, they had been baptized, they were drinking from the spiritual rock which was Christ - in other words, they had everything that you and I have - and yet God was not pleased with them and laid them low in the wilderness. They were on their way to the Promised Land - they were running the race - but they didn't finish, they were disqualified because of the various reasons listed in that chapter.

Claiming that these men only thought they were believers but in reality weren't does not create eternal security but eternal insecurity! We need to not only start the race, but finish it. Paul realized that the race isn't over until we meet Jesus face to face!

Pilgrimtozion
Jan 2nd 2009, 06:51 PM
... There are temptations to turn aside, to give up, to rest on your laurels, to sit back and let life go on and enjoy yourself. But that will sabotage your Christian effectiveness. That is what Paul is talking about.

So you are saying the whole passage is speaking of our Christian effectiveness? After being disqualified in a race, there is no running anymore, no getting to the finish line. Within that context, the explanation RogerW gave is more likely than the one you are giving here. The Israelites being laid low in the wilderness certainly made them ineffective - it stopped them from getting to the Promised Land altogether.

The context and meaning of the verses here is altogether more serious than what you imply here. I'm afraid I cannot agree with you here.

alethos
Jan 2nd 2009, 06:58 PM
Paul realized that the race isn't over until we meet Jesus face to face!

Unlike those who quit early or drop out of the race. Paul was able to boast ............

I have fought the good fight. I have completed the race. I have kept the faith. 2 Tim 4:7

Heb 3:14 for we are become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end:

ProjectPeter
Jan 2nd 2009, 07:02 PM
In other words, you are saying that Paul beats his body into submission so that he will prove himself to be a true believer - that if he didn't, he would show himself not to be a follower of Christ and never having been saved in the first place?

I have problems with this simply because it nullifies the meaning of disqualification. Paul was running the race in the assumption he was a believer but might have turned out to be mistaken? That doesn't sound like disqualification - that sounds like being 'off track'! I find your conclusion hard to solidify from the context, especially when we take another look at the next chapter. The Israelites were Israelites, they were on their way to the Promised Land, they had been baptized, they were drinking from the spiritual rock which was Christ - in other words, they had everything that you and I have - and yet God was not pleased with them and laid them low in the wilderness. They were on their way to the Promised Land - they were running the race - but they didn't finish, they were disqualified because of the various reasons listed in that chapter.

Claiming that these men only thought they were believers but in reality weren't does not create eternal security but eternal insecurity! We need to not only start the race, but finish it. Paul realized that the race isn't over until we meet Jesus face to face!
Notice that chapter 10 just continues this out telling us "why" this is vital.

1 Corinthians 10:1 For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 and all ate the same spiritual food;
4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
5 Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.
6 Now these things happened as examples for us, that we should not crave evil things, as they also craved.
7 And do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, "THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TO PLAY."
8 Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day.
9 Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents.
10 Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer.
11 Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.

Yukerboy
Jan 3rd 2009, 02:30 AM
Referring back to the OP...


2. Separation from the Power of sin - sanctification

I'm glad so many agree. Now, I ask Paul, what is the power of sin?

1 Corinthians 15:56
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.

So, we can state that sanctification = separation from the law rather confidently.

RogerW
Jan 3rd 2009, 04:12 PM
In other words, you are saying that Paul beats his body into submission so that he will prove himself to be a true believer - that if he didn't, he would show himself not to be a follower of Christ and never having been saved in the first place?

Hi Pilgrim,

Paul doesn't beat his body into submission to prove he is a man of faith, but because he is a man of faith. The warning is that men who are of faith like Pauls, will bring the flesh into submission....period! How? Through absolute reliance upon God living in him! Paul is obedient because his faith is strong, not because he is strong, but because he is convicted that Christ is not only able, but He will also do that which Paul, of himself cannot do.



I have problems with this simply because it nullifies the meaning of disqualification. Paul was running the race in the assumption he was a believer but might have turned out to be mistaken? That doesn't sound like disqualification - that sounds like being 'off track'! I find your conclusion hard to solidify from the context, especially when we take another look at the next chapter. The Israelites were Israelites, they were on their way to the Promised Land, they had been baptized, they were drinking from the spiritual rock which was Christ - in other words, they had everything that you and I have - and yet God was not pleased with them and laid them low in the wilderness. They were on their way to the Promised Land - they were running the race - but they didn't finish, they were disqualified because of the various reasons listed in that chapter.

They were disqualified because they had not FAITH! They did all these things of their own strength, thinking their obedience would justifiy them before God. But God desires a humbled, broken and contrite heart, submitted to Him through faith. The natural branches were broken off because of faithlessness (unbelief). And Paul warns us that we too will be broken off if we do not abide in faith. Our works will not save us, so unless Paul beats his body into submission because his faith is strong, he will be like those who compete in athletics to win a corruptible crown, or like the nation who thought to justify themselves. The crown Paul seeks is incorruptible, and imperishable because he is obiedent through faith in Christ alone to justify him before God.

Ro 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Ro 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.



Claiming that these men only thought they were believers but in reality weren't does not create eternal security but eternal insecurity! We need to not only start the race, but finish it. Paul realized that the race isn't over until we meet Jesus face to face!

Without faith it is impossible to please God (Heb 11:6). Paul understands the necessity of earnestly contending for the faith once delivered unto him (Jude 1:3). To earnestly contend means there is a constant struggle, a spiritual battle, a battle against our sinful nature that seeks to shake or weaken our faith. Paul warns us not to allow our faith to become a liscense to sin, or give in to the desires of the world, our flesh or Satan, thinking we are now justified so there is no longer any effort or obedience in faith we must contend for. Paul NEVER doubts his salvation is secure in Christ, but he also understands the one who is of true saving faith will fight the good fight of faith until the end. Not because he fears falling away, but because his reliance is not on himself, but upon Christ alone to keep him.

Ps 37:25 I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.
Ps 37:28 For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.

Many Blessings,
RW

alethos
Jan 4th 2009, 01:49 AM
They were disqualified because they had not FAITH!

Interesting, since Paul, who certainly possessed faith thought that even he himself could possibly become disqualified.

1 Cor 9:27 but I buffet my body, and bring it into bondage: lest by any means, after that I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected.

Yukerboy
Jan 4th 2009, 02:45 AM
Interesting, since Paul, who certainly possessed faith thought that even he himself could possibly become disqualified.

1 Cor 9:27 but I buffet my body, and bring it into bondage: lest by any means, after that I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected.

Which is exactly why I state there is no blessed assurance.

Paul was making his election sure by doing this. Not one of us can say we have been born again for none of us have endured to the end. Paul also was aware of that for himself.

alethos
Jan 4th 2009, 02:50 AM
Which is exactly why I state there is no blessed assurance.

Paul was making his election sure by doing this. Not one of us can say we have been born again for none of us have endured to the end. Paul also was aware of that for himself.

Just because a person fails to endure unto the end doesn't mean that the person wasn't previously born again.

Yukerboy
Jan 4th 2009, 03:29 AM
Just because a person fails to endure unto the end doesn't mean that the person wasn't previously born again.

You will never find that in Scripture.

The characteristics of those who are born again:

They will not be cut down and thrown in the fire (Matthew 7:19)
They are unable to be deceived (Matthew 24:24)
They have crossed over from death to life (John 5:24, Romans 6:13)
They will stand firm to the end (Matthew 24:13, Mark 13:13)
They belong to God's family forever (John 8:25, Romans 8:14)
They are given endurance from God (Romans 15:5)
They are kept strong to the end by Christ (1 Corinthians 1:8)
They are made to stand firm in Christ by God (2 Corinthians 1:21)

If you are not these, you are not and never were born again.

If you are born again, you will endure to the end, for you belong to God's family forever.

My heart's Desire
Jan 4th 2009, 06:09 AM
Notice that chapter 10 just continues this out telling us "why" this is vital.

1 Corinthians 10:1 For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 and all ate the same spiritual food;
4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
5 Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.
6 Now these things happened as examples for us, that we should not crave evil things, as they also craved.
7 And do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, "THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TO PLAY."
8 Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day.
9 Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents.
10 Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer.
11 Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.
And yet the rest of the story is this. Afterwards, a serpent was made and put upon a pole and all those who had been biten and who looked upon the bronze serpent lived. Is this not a type of Christ, who forgives and bears the judgment for our sin? If so, then people looked upon Christ and lived. As in Gen 3:15 is the serpent not a symbol of our judged sin? And that sin (the serpent represents was put upon the pole and yet all who looked upon it, lived). The looked upon a serpent (to live) which had been the very thing that had destroyed many of those who had sinned.
Numbers 21:9

alethos
Jan 4th 2009, 11:33 AM
The characteristics of those who are born again:

They will not be cut down and thrown in the fire (Matthew 7:19)

Then I guess we might as well erase this from our Bibles ...
John 15:6 If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown aside like a branch and he withers. They gather them, throw them into the fire, and they are burned.


They are unable to be deceived (Matthew 24:24)

Since the possiblity of being deceived is an impossibility, lets ignore the Biblical commands to believers which say ...
James 1:16 Be not deceived, my beloved brethren.
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first. (2 Thess. 2:3)


They will stand firm to the end (Matthew 24:13, Mark 13:13)

We can also discard ....
1 Cor 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
Heb 3:14 for we are become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end:


They are kept strong to the end by Christ (1 Corinthians 1:8)

While we are at it lets scratch this command directed at believers from our Bible ...
Jude 1:21 keep yourselves in the love of God


They are made to stand firm in Christ by God (2 Corinthians 1:21)
If you are born again, you will endure to the end, for you belong to God's family forever.

While were at it lets scratch the following from our Bibles which are directed towards believers ...
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Mat. 10:22 and 24:13 Mark. 13:13 he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
2 Tim 2:12 if we endure, we shall also reign with him:

Pilgrimtozion
Jan 4th 2009, 11:34 AM
Or we could stick to 1 Corinthians 9:24-10:12... ;)

ProjectPeter
Jan 4th 2009, 01:34 PM
And yet the rest of the story is this. Afterwards, a serpent was made and put upon a pole and all those who had been biten and who looked upon the bronze serpent lived. Is this not a type of Christ, who forgives and bears the judgment for our sin? If so, then people looked upon Christ and lived. As in Gen 3:15 is the serpent not a symbol of our judged sin? And that sin (the serpent represents was put upon the pole and yet all who looked upon it, lived). The looked upon a serpent (to live) which had been the very thing that had destroyed many of those who had sinned.
Numbers 21:9
Uh... if you want to try and change Paul's point then I suspect you can do that in your own thinking... but you are totally missing the point Paul is making. He is speaking of those that didn't and they died.

ProjectPeter
Jan 4th 2009, 01:35 PM
Or we could stick to 1 Corinthians 9:24-10:12... ;)
Nah... that won't do!

Yukerboy
Jan 4th 2009, 07:43 PM
Then I guess we might as well erase this from our Bibles ...
John 15:6 If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown aside like a branch and he withers. They gather them, throw them into the fire, and they are burned.


No that is true also, for those that do not remain were not born again.




Since the possiblity of being deceived is an impossibility, lets ignore the Biblical commands to believers which say ...
James 1:16 Be not deceived, my beloved brethren.
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first. (2 Thess. 2:3)


James is writing to the world, not just believers. He also tells them later that they are to grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom.

He's telling them to get rid of joy, which is a fruit of the Spirit. We know that the joy they had was not of the spirit.



We can also discard ....
1 Cor 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
Heb 3:14 for we are become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end:


This is a main precept of being born again. The born again will stand firm to the end. If anyone does not hold fast, they were not born again.



While we are at it lets scratch this command directed at believers from our Bible ...
Jude 1:21 keep yourselves in the love of God


Once again, not just believers was this command given to. And nothing can seperate the born again from the love of God (Romans 8:39)




While were at it lets scratch the following from our Bibles which are directed towards believers ...
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Mat. 10:22 and 24:13 Mark. 13:13 he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
2 Tim 2:12 if we endure, we shall also reign with him:


Believers can have an evil heart of unbelief?

Let's not kid ourselves. Those who are born again endure to the end. Those who do not endure to the end are not born again.

My heart's Desire
Jan 4th 2009, 08:19 PM
Uh... if you want to try and change Paul's point then I suspect you can do that in your own thinking... but you are totally missing the point Paul is making. He is speaking of those that didn't and they died. Am I really trying the change the point? It was Paul who used the illustration but there was more to the illustration. The reason they were laid low was because they spoke against God and Moses. As judgment, God sent serpents among the people that bit the people so that many died. When they said they had sinned they asked Moses to interceed for the people.
A serpent was set upon a standard and everyone who had been bitten (assuming those who had not died when the serpents first were sent out) looked at the serpent then they lived.

If your point is that Paul is saying that a Christian can sin and lose salvation, (be disqualified) then I disagree on the fact that Christ is the judgment for our sin and as the people looked upon the serpent and lived, so we also live in our trust in Christ. If Paul is using disqualified as a condition of salvation, then all of us have to qualify to be saved. Well, none are worthy.
I think the passage is one of a Christian's service not his/her salvation.

My heart's Desire
Jan 4th 2009, 08:59 PM
Last night I heard a preacher on the radio talk about the concept of salvation. He began by giving an outline of what salvation really is, listing three main divisions:

1. Separation from the Judgment of sin - justification
2. Separation from the Power of sin - sanctification
3. Separation from the Presence of sin - glorification

I like this outline, because it shows that salvation is not encompassed in a mere moment but is in fact a journey that is not fully complete until glorification takes place. It is not for nothing that the first Christians were called followers of "The Way" (Acts 9:2).

The preacher then proceeded to 1 Corinthians 9:24-27, where Paul states that he disciplines his body and makes it a slave lest, after having preached to others, he himself might not be disqualified. Shockingly, he said that Paul was not referring to our salvation here but merely to our inheritance. We cannot lose our salvation but we can lose our inheritance!

Now within the context of the verse, I have a hard time finding any justification for this conclusion. Both 1 Corinthians 9:24 and Hebrews 12:1 refer to our Christian walk as a 'race' that is to be completed. The material question to me here is this: What does it mean for a man to be disqualified? As far as a race is concerned, it means he is not allowed to complete the race and even if he does, his results will not be counted and he will be treated as though he never competed in the race. In the same way, Paul disciplines himself so that he might not be disqualified in this race of salvation. Paul is very aware that salvation is not a moment but a process, something that is not done and over with by saying a prayer but is only complete when Jesus returns and we are glorified with Him!

Both the Old and New Testament give ample examples of people who started out on "The Way" but never actually made it to the finish line. Paul proceeds in 1 Corinthians 10 to give some examples of those people. In the first five verses of that chapter, Paul states that though the Israelites were baptized, drank spiritual drink and drank spiritual food and drank from the rock, which is Christ, God was still not pleased with them and they were laid low in the wilderness. After listing several sins that these Israelites committed, he says these things have happened as an example for us, then stating that we should be careful not to fall if we think we stand. The whole point Paul is making to the Corinthians here is that the possibility of being disqualified is present.

You might argue that being laid low does not mean to lose their salvation or that falling in 1 Corinthians 10:13 doesn't refer to something more serious than just making a mistake. The context of the verses, however, state differently, and a difference in semantics cannot take away from the gravity of what Paul is saying here.

A race is a race, a way is a way, and we have not arrived until we finish the race or reach our destination.

In discussing this, I would like to stick to this verse and not digress into discussing every verse available on the topic. If you can show me from cross-references that being disqualified does indeed refer to losing your inheritance and not forfeiting your salvation, then please feel free to do so.

I look forward to your input.
If we stuck only to the verse then we'd have to assume that if all run only one is the winner and gets the prize. If referring to salvation is that to assume that only one receives salvation? How can we run to win the prize of the free gift of Salvation without saying that we somehow earned it? Do racers not earn the prize by running? If so, then the prize is not freely given but earned.

Emanate
Jan 4th 2009, 09:15 PM
If we stuck only to the verse then we'd have to assume that if all run only one is the winner and gets the prize. If referring to salvation is that to assume that only one receives salvation? How can we run to win the prize of the free gift of Salvation without saying that we somehow earned it? Do racers not earn the prize by running? If so, then the prize is not freely given but earned.



1 Cor. 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway

RogerW
Jan 4th 2009, 09:51 PM
Interesting, since Paul, who certainly possessed faith thought that even he himself could possibly become disqualified.

1 Cor 9:27 but I buffet my body, and bring it into bondage: lest by any means, after that I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected.

Not only did Paul have complete, blessed assurance of his salvation, he also spoke to believers without doubting they too share in his confidence. Read the whole letter and you will find Paul is addressing those pretenders of faith, and not those of true like minded faith with Paul.

1Co 1:4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
1Co 1:5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
1Co 1:6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
1Co 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Co 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Co 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

Past tense...believers are washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, by the Spirit of God. How can he speak with such assurance if he thinks he or they can become disqualified?

1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

alethos
Jan 4th 2009, 10:16 PM
How can he (Paul) speak with such assurance if he thinks he or they can become disqualified?

[/B]

I only know Paul believed it was possible for himself to become disqualified. I believe it's so because he said so.

I discipline my body and bring it under strict control, so that after preaching to others, I myself will not be disqualified. (1 Cor 9:27)

I'm not going to call Paul a liar.

alethos
Jan 4th 2009, 10:25 PM
No that is true also, for those that do not remain were not born again.

Like others in your theological camp. Your understanding and application of 1 John 2:19 is incorrect. 1 John 2;19 indeed does deal with those who never were saved to begin with. However it does not deal with a person who was genuinely saved, and then later departed from the faith.

"While it is a fact that there are many who wear the name of Christian who are not really believers at all, this does not prove that those who defect from the faith were never genuine in the estimate of their salvation. Individuals use this specific application of 1 John to certain individuals as a blanket answer to any and all situations.


James is writing to the world, not just believers. He also tells them later that they are to grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom.

Wrong, James specifically addresses them as my beloved brethren, by which is meant his brethren in Christ - fellow believers.


Let's not kid ourselves. Those who are born again endure to the end. Those who do not endure to the end are not born again.

The only person you're kidding is yourself.

Yukerboy
Jan 5th 2009, 06:11 AM
Like others in your theological camp. Your understanding and application of 1 John 2:19 is incorrect. 1 John 2;19 indeed does deal with those who never were saved to begin with. However it does not deal with a person who was genuinely saved, and then later departed from the faith.

I'd love to meet someone, just one, in my theological camp.

You will never find a case of someone being born again and then deeparting from the faith. God makes them endure to the end...and if He doesn't, then Paul and Christ lied.


While it is a fact that there are many who wear the name of Christian who are not really believers at all, this does not prove that those who defect from the faith were never genuine in the estimate of their salvation. Individuals use this specific application of 1 John to certain individuals as a blanket answer to any and all situations.

There are those who believe and not have been born again. Those on the rocky soil. But make no mistake, Jesus won't say "I knew you once, but not now.". No, He never knew them.


Wrong, James specifically addresses them as my beloved brethren, by which is meant his brethren in Christ - fellow believers.

So, the brethern in Christ are slanderers, they kill, covet, fight, quarrel, are an adulterous people?

I'm not in that brotherhood....and neither are you.

James wrote that to the world. The brethren being the other descendants of Abraham. Physically.

alethos
Jan 5th 2009, 12:37 PM
You will never find a case of someone being born again and then deeparting from the faith.

Well lets see.

1. I actually personally know of such cases.

2. Pastor's I have talked to personally know of and are aware of such cases.

3. Scripture clearly states that if a person doesn't continue to remain in Christ they will be cast aside and thrown into the fire and burned (John 15:6).

Conclusion:
I believe, those who don't know of such case have closed their eyes and ears.

Yukerboy
Jan 5th 2009, 01:25 PM
Well lets see.

1. I actually personally know of such cases.

2. Pastor's I have talked to personally know of and are aware of such cases.

3. Scripture clearly states that if a person doesn't continue to remain in Christ they will be cast aside and thrown into the fire and burned (John 15:6).

Conclusion:
I believe, those who don't know of such case have closed their eyes and ears.

Not one who is cast aside and thrown in the fire was born again.

They believed for a while and then fell away. The ones in the rocky soil.

God doesn't make mistakes. If He says that those who are born again will not be condemned, He meant it.

Do not mistake those who believe for a while to be born again.

alethos
Jan 5th 2009, 01:42 PM
Not one who is cast aside and thrown in the fire was born again.

That comment cannot be supported by the Scripture text found in John 15.

Read more carefully

John 15:2 Every branch in Me that does not produce fruit He removes, and He prunes every branch that produces fruit so that it will produce more fruit.

In the above verse, two types of branches are mentioned. 1. Those which do not produce fruit. 2. Those that produce fruit. Nevertheless, even the non-producing branches are said to be "in Him" and we know that anyone in Him is a new creature (see 2 Cor 5:17)

"The phrase 'in Me' is used 16 times in John's Gospel (6:56;
10:38; 14:10 [twice], 11, 20, 30; 15:2, 4 [twice], 5-7; 16:33;
17:21, 23). In each case it refers to fellowship with Christ.
It is inconsistent then to say the phrase in 15:2 refers to a
person who merely professes to be saved but is not. A
person 'in Me' is always a true Christian." - Joseph C. Dillow, "Abiding Is Remaining in Fellowship: Another Look at John 15:1-6," Bibliotheca
Sacra 147:585 (January-March 1990):44-53.

Then a couple of verses later we read this about those branches that don't remain in Him.

John 15:6 If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown aside like a branch and he withers. They gather them, throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

"Our Lord in the plainest manner intimates that a person may as truly be united to Him as the branch is to the tree that produces it, and yet be afterwards cut off and cast into the fire, because he has not brought forth fruit to the glory of His God. No man can cut off a branch from a tree to which that branch was never united; it is absurd, and contrary to the letter and spirit of the metaphor, to talk of being "seemingly" in Christ - because this means nothing. If there was only a seeming union there could be only a seeming excision. So the matter is just where it began; nothing is done on either side, and nothing said to any purpose. He is cast forth. Observe that person who abides not in Christ in a believing, loving, obedient spirit, (1) is cut off from Jesus, having no longer any right or title to Him or to His salvation. (2) He is withered - deprived of all the influences of God's grace and Spirit. (3) He is gathered - becomes (through the judgment of God) again united with backsliders like himself and other workers of iniquity. And being abandoned to his own heart and Satan, he (4) is cast into the fire - separated from God's people, from God himself, and from the glory of His power. And (5) he is burned - is eternally tormented with the devil and his angels, and with all those who have lived and died in their iniquity."

Dragonfighter1
Jan 5th 2009, 01:58 PM
I take a different view with all the above and don't necessarily think this it has to do with salvation at all. I think Paul is talking about his message...his good news. He is saying that if he doesn't practice what he preaches to others then others will "castaway" or "disqualify" what he is saying. He is castaway. Much of chapter 9of 1 Corinthians centers about the theme of practicing the Gospel one preaches (v. 13-14).
This is the way I read it too. While the earlier posts posit correctly about the issues they see as feeding lazy christianity etc.. ( and they are right) this text to me speaks of being disqualified from preaching by errant behaviour.. and of the rewards of preaching which are not just earthly but also eternal... rewards can be lost.....

(salvation isn't a reward -- its not earned)

Yukerboy
Jan 5th 2009, 02:09 PM
It is inconsistent then to say the phrase in 15:2 refers to a
person who merely professes to be saved but is not. A
person 'in Me' is always a true Christian."

It is then inconsistent to say that we are sons of God for a son belongs to God's family forever (John 8:35, Romans 8:14)

Therefore, we have a conflict.

Now, either those branches that did not remain in Christ were never born again as those who are born again are made to stand firm in Christ by God (2 Corinthians 1:21)

Or...

Joseph C Dillow is correct and God lied when he states through Paul that those who are born again will be made to stand firm to the end (2 Corinthians 1:21) and that Christ lied when He said that those who are part of God's family remain in God's family forvever (John 8:35, Romans 8:14).

I will take Paul, God, and Christ's words over Joseph C. Dillow's.

alethos
Jan 5th 2009, 02:45 PM
I will take Paul, God, and Christ's words over Joseph C. Dillow's.

And yet you refuse to believe what Jesus said in John 15, which you still haven't been able to refute by sound exegesis.

After having read quite a few of your posts, I cannot help but get the impression that you you trust more in what men have drummed into your head over time rather than what Scripture says, than you want us to believe.

I have listened many times to an explanation of eternal security based upon the analogy of sonship. "My child is born into my family and he will always be my child. He cannot be unborn. This reasoning avoids the central issue. The question is not whether a child can be "unborn" but whether it can sicken and die. By die I mean a spiritual death.

Jude 1:12 These are they who are hidden rocks in your love-feasts when they feast with you, shepherds that without fear feed themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn leaves without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

"twice dead" The word apothanonta (dead) is an aorist participle, rather than an adjective, and the verbal aspect of the participle must not be overlooked. Jude's description, literally, is "twice having died." It is concerned with the past, rather than the future. The tragic circumstance, "twice dead," is the lot of men who, having once "passed out of death into life" through faith in Jesus Christ, have turned back to walk no more with Him, so becoming "dead in trespasses and in sins" once again. "Twice dead" can only refer to the fact that men who were alive in Christ have again become spiritually dead by severing their union with Him "who is our life."

Pilgrimtozion
Jan 5th 2009, 03:20 PM
Within the context of the verses, which speak of running a race, I do not see how this interpretation could be correct. Paul says he himself would be disqualified, not his message, his preaching, or his ministry.

alethos
Jan 5th 2009, 03:28 PM
Within the context of the verses, which speak of running a race, I do not see how this interpretation could be correct. Paul says he himself would be disqualified, not his message, his preaching, or his ministry.

Yes, I agree.

1Co 9:27 but I buffet my body, and bring it into bondage: lest by any means, after that I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected.

"I myself" in the above verse is a direct reference to his person.

To say it says his message, his preaching, his ministry, his rewards, etc. is to add whats not in the text.

Pilgrimtozion
Jan 5th 2009, 04:03 PM
Since the topic of discussion here is Paul's use of the word 'disqualified', I thought it might be useful to look at other usages of the word in the New Testament. The outcome is quite astounding and will aid the discussion significantly, I think. Take a look at what I found using the Online Blue Letter Bible:

The word used for 'disqualified' is adokimos and means the following:
1) not standing the test, not approved
a) properly used of metals and coins
2) that which does not prove itself such as it ought
a) unfit for, unproved, spurious, reprobate

The word is also found in eight New Testament passages. In six of these, the AV (KJV) translates adokimos as 'reprobate', in two other cases as 'castaway' and 'rejected'. Here are the eight passages in the NASB:

Romans 1:28: And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper.

1 Corinthians 9:27: but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

2 Corinthians 13:5-6: Test yourselves {to see} if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you--unless indeed you fail the test? But I trust that you will realize that we ourselves do not fail the test.

2 Corinthians 13:7: Now we pray to God that you do no wrong; not that we ourselves may appear approved, but that you may do what is right, even though we may appear unapproved.

2 Timothy 3:8: Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these {men} also oppose the truth, men of depraved mind, rejected in regard to the faith.

Titus 1:16: They profess to know God, but by {their} deeds they deny {Him,} being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed.

Hebrews 6:8: but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

Isn't it fascinating how in every single verse where the word is used, the verse is speaking of salvation or the lack thereof? Romans 1:28 is especially strong, but 2 Corinthians 13, Hebrews 6, and the other verses do not lie either. Based on not only the context of 1 Corinthians 9:27 but also the usage of the word adokimos in the rest of the New Testament, I think we can safely argue that Paul is discussing an issue of salvation here.

Now whether that issue of salvation is merely theoretical and rhetorical or actual might be questioned by some. I personally do not find any reason to question the actuality of the possibility of forfeiting your salvation in 1 Corinthians 9:27. To argue that Paul elsewhere clearly says that salvation cannot be forfeited (I do not like to use the word 'lost' in the context of salvation) is a non-argument to me, because it simply sets one verse up against another. The meaning of one verse is explained away to establish and strengthen the opinion for which the other verses are used. As far as I am concerned, however, that is not the proper way of interpreting the Bible or finding the truth. We must take verses for what they are and deal with apparent contradictions or violations of our theology later instead of starting from a predetermined theology and fitting all verses into that theology, even if doing so violates the verses themselves.

My heart's Desire
Jan 6th 2009, 06:12 AM
I only know Paul believed it was possible for himself to become disqualified. I believe it's so because he said so.

.Then it would mean that he thought he had to earn or qualify for salvation. Salvation is a free gift for which none can earn or be qualified for.

alethos
Jan 6th 2009, 12:50 PM
Then it would mean that he thought he had to earn or qualify for salvation. Salvation is a free gift for which none can earn or be qualified for.

Well we have already established that you are unwilling to accept what Paul said in 1 Cor 9:27, so lets move on and post another verse. This one addresses the above reply from you.

Paul says:

Phil 2:12 So then, my beloved, even as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;

ProjectPeter
Jan 6th 2009, 03:43 PM
Am I really trying the change the point? It was Paul who used the illustration but there was more to the illustration. The reason they were laid low was because they spoke against God and Moses. As judgment, God sent serpents among the people that bit the people so that many died. When they said they had sinned they asked Moses to interceed for the people.
A serpent was set upon a standard and everyone who had been bitten (assuming those who had not died when the serpents first were sent out) looked at the serpent then they lived.

If your point is that Paul is saying that a Christian can sin and lose salvation, (be disqualified) then I disagree on the fact that Christ is the judgment for our sin and as the people looked upon the serpent and lived, so we also live in our trust in Christ. If Paul is using disqualified as a condition of salvation, then all of us have to qualify to be saved. Well, none are worthy.
I think the passage is one of a Christian's service not his/her salvation.
Sure you are. If Paul wanted to further clarify his point then he'd of added the other part of that passage. Paul wasn't focusing on the folks that looked at the serpent on the pole and lived.... he was focusing on the point that they got themselves to the point where the curse came on them.

You disagree because that is your doctrine. ;) No. None are worthy thus comes grace. But rest assured... one must endure to the end. If you don't... you won't be see that final salvation to come.

Dragonfighter1
Jan 6th 2009, 04:31 PM
Well we have already established that you are unwilling to accept what Paul said in 1 Cor 9:27, so lets move on and post another verse. This one addresses the above reply from you.

Paul says:

Phil 2:12 So then, my beloved, even as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
Now hold on there...

You can't go using verses out of context just to bait someone!

I can't work a $20 bill out of my wallet unless its already in there.... and you cant work out your salvation unless you already have it! There may be many other verses that more accurately identify your concern but this verse can't be used this way. It's disingenuous. Please find another verse.

Pilgrimtozion
Jan 6th 2009, 04:50 PM
With all due respect to the participants, I fear this thread turning into a all-out OSAS/NOSAS debate. That is fine, but as the OP I ask that we stick to the verse presented in the OP or, if anything, verses related such as in my above post.

RogerW
Jan 6th 2009, 04:59 PM
Since the topic of discussion here is Paul's use of the word 'disqualified', I thought it might be useful to look at other usages of the word in the New Testament. The outcome is quite astounding and will aid the discussion significantly, I think. Take a look at what I found using the Online Blue Letter Bible:

The word used for 'disqualified' is adokimos and means the following:
1) not standing the test, not approved
a) properly used of metals and coins
2) that which does not prove itself such as it ought
a) unfit for, unproved, spurious, reprobate

The word is also found in eight New Testament passages. In six of these, the AV (KJV) translates adokimos as 'reprobate', in two other cases as 'castaway' and 'rejected'. Here are the eight passages in the NASB:

Romans 1:28: And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper.

1 Corinthians 9:27: but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

2 Corinthians 13:5-6: Test yourselves {to see} if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you--unless indeed you fail the test? But I trust that you will realize that we ourselves do not fail the test.

2 Corinthians 13:7: Now we pray to God that you do no wrong; not that we ourselves may appear approved, but that you may do what is right, even though we may appear unapproved.

2 Timothy 3:8: Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these {men} also oppose the truth, men of depraved mind, rejected in regard to the faith.

Titus 1:16: They profess to know God, but by {their} deeds they deny {Him,} being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed.

Hebrews 6:8: but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

Isn't it fascinating how in every single verse where the word is used, the verse is speaking of salvation or the lack thereof? Romans 1:28 is especially strong, but 2 Corinthians 13, Hebrews 6, and the other verses do not lie either. Based on not only the context of 1 Corinthians 9:27 but also the usage of the word adokimos in the rest of the New Testament, I think we can safely argue that Paul is discussing an issue of salvation here.

Now whether that issue of salvation is merely theoretical and rhetorical or actual might be questioned by some. I personally do not find any reason to question the actuality of the possibility of forfeiting your salvation in 1 Corinthians 9:27. To argue that Paul elsewhere clearly says that salvation cannot be forfeited (I do not like to use the word 'lost' in the context of salvation) is a non-argument to me, because it simply sets one verse up against another. The meaning of one verse is explained away to establish and strengthen the opinion for which the other verses are used. As far as I am concerned, however, that is not the proper way of interpreting the Bible or finding the truth. We must take verses for what they are and deal with apparent contradictions or violations of our theology later instead of starting from a predetermined theology and fitting all verses into that theology, even if doing so violates the verses themselves.

Hi Pilgrim,

I agree! One verse of Scripture cannot contradict another. All of Scripture MUST harmonize, and if it does not there is nothing wrong with Scripture, but rather with our understanding of it. Therefore how do we reconcile this verse that appears to teach that Paul is concerned that his salvation might be lost with other verses that appear to teach Paul has complete confidence and assurance of eternal life?

Many blessings,
RW

alethos
Jan 6th 2009, 05:04 PM
I can't work a $20 bill out of my wallet unless its already in there.... and you cant work out your salvation unless you already have it!

I assume you must have had a $20 bill in your wallet at some time. Were you able to work it out of your wallet?

I assume you already possess salvation. Are you willing to believe that Paul said we are to work it out? Or was Paul lying when he said we must "work out our salvation with fear and trembling" (Phil 2:12)?

RogerW
Jan 6th 2009, 05:19 PM
I assume you must have had a $20 bill in your wallet at some time. Were you able to work it out of your wallet?

I assume you already possess salvation. Are you willing to believe that Paul said we are to work it out? Or was Paul lying when he said we must "work out our salvation with fear and trembling" (Phil 2:12)?

How can we know with blessed assurance that we will work out our salvation with fear and trembling?

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

ProjectPeter
Jan 6th 2009, 05:44 PM
Hi Pilgrim,

I agree! One verse of Scripture cannot contradict another. All of Scripture MUST harmonize, and if it does not there is nothing wrong with Scripture, but rather with our understanding of it. Therefore how do we reconcile this verse that appears to teach that Paul is concerned that his salvation might be lost with other verses that appear to teach Paul has complete confidence and assurance of eternal life?

Many blessings,
RW
Paul spoke that assurance in and with faith having his hope on eternal life. ;)

ProjectPeter
Jan 6th 2009, 05:47 PM
How can we know with blessed assurance that we will work out our salvation with fear and trembling?

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Don't stop there!!!

Philippians 2:14 *Do all things without grumbling or disputing;
15 *that you may prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world,
16 *holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may have cause to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain.

RogerW
Jan 6th 2009, 05:56 PM
Paul spoke that assurance in and with faith having his hope on eternal life. ;)

Exactly! Paul was strong in THE faith, that is saving faith, and he never doubted that THIS faith would always sustain him to the coming of Christ in glory.

Many Blessings,
RW

ProjectPeter
Jan 6th 2009, 06:04 PM
Exactly! Paul was strong in THE faith, that is saving faith, and he never doubted that THIS faith would always sustain him to the coming of Christ in glory.

Many Blessings,
RW
But then it was still by his strong faith that he made the statement... IN FAITH. Paul knew that it wasn't a reality until he'd endured to the very end. Afterall... that is what he taught in his various letters... right?

RogerW
Jan 6th 2009, 06:10 PM
Don't stop there!!!

Philippians 2:14 *Do all things without grumbling or disputing;
15 *that you may prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world,
16 *holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may have cause to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain.


Great to point out the need for greater context Ken! Paul, (just as in the OP passage) shows great concern for those whom he is teaching. Do they have credible evidence in their lives that they are indeed children of God? Are they proving themselves to be blameless and innocent? They APPEAR as lights in the world, but will they hold fast the Word of life and be found in the day of Christ that Paul has not labored in vain?

This is a necessary self-examination of every one who professes saving faith! Paul is concerned and exhorts us time and again to "hold fast"! Not because he is worried that we will not hold fast when we are truly of saving faith, but because he is worried that we are deceiving ourselves. How might the one of true saving faith deceive themselves or be deceived? Is this not a credible warning because of the enemies we daily face; the world, our own flesh, and Satan? Why would Paul be concerned since he has blessed assurance of eternal life for not only himself, but for all who have his like saving faith?

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Jan 6th 2009, 06:18 PM
But then it was still by his strong faith that he made the statement... IN FAITH. Paul knew that it wasn't a reality until he'd endured to the very end. Afterall... that is what he taught in his various letters... right?

Oh you'll have to show me Ken. Paul never doubted the eternal life he already possessed. But he also understood that in this physical life he could not yet experience eternity fully. For this he understood would not be fully realized until he received his new glorified spiritual body when Christ came again. He had no doubt he would receive this, but he also had no doubt that saving faith means to work, abide, continue etc in this life. How could he have such blessed assurance without having been made perfect in both spirit and body? He KNEW because he did not rely upon himself, but looked always to Christ to do what he knew he could not do apart from His mercy and grace. Paul knew that Christ would keep his promises even if Paul could not always keep his.

Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Many Blessings,
RW

ProjectPeter
Jan 6th 2009, 06:31 PM
Oh you'll have to show me Ken. Paul never doubted the eternal life he already possessed. But he also understood that in this physical life he could not yet experience eternity fully. For this he understood would not be fully realized until he received his new glorified spiritual body when Christ came again. He had no doubt he would receive this, but he also had no doubt that saving faith means to work, abide, continue etc in this life. How could he have such blessed assurance without having been made perfect in both spirit and body? He KNEW because he did not rely upon himself, but looked always to Christ to do what he knew he could not do apart from His mercy and grace. Paul knew that Christ would keep his promises even if Paul could not always keep his.

Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Many Blessings,
RW
Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one also hope for what he sees?
25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.

In hope we have been saved. Because of that hope... we endure. If that hope wasn't hope but already seen... what's to eagerly wait for? No need to run a race that we've already won. No need to endure if we've already got there. No need to hope for something that we already have.

Think about this for a second Roger. Will it take faith to believe in Christ once we're already on the other side of those pearly gates? No... it will be evident... seen. Faith, like everything else will cease to be needed. :)

Dragonfighter1
Jan 6th 2009, 06:34 PM
I assume you must have had a $20 bill in your wallet at some time. Were you able to work it out of your wallet?

I assume you already possess salvation. Are you willing to believe that Paul said we are to work it out? Or was Paul lying when he said we must "work out our salvation with fear and trembling" (Phil 2:12)?
I do think you missed my point. But it matters no more as they have ably made the case for contextual referencing in the new posts.
Thanks for trying to understand my point though.... scriptural disagreements are always difficult to handle. More so for some than others but difficult none the less.

DF

RogerW
Jan 6th 2009, 07:19 PM
Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one also hope for what he sees?
25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.

In hope we have been saved. Because of that hope... we endure. If that hope wasn't hope but already seen... what's to eagerly wait for? No need to run a race that we've already won. No need to endure if we've already got there. No need to hope for something that we already have.

Think about this for a second Roger. Will it take faith to believe in Christ once we're already on the other side of those pearly gates? No... it will be evident... seen. Faith, like everything else will cease to be needed. :)

The hope spoken of here is a confident expectation that comes through saving faith! That hope is knowing that we will receive fully what has been promised, though we don't yet see the fullness of eternal life while still wearing these corrupt mortal bodies of death (flesh). The whole creation now burdened through sin desires to be delivered from this bondage, we too from bondage to corrupt bodies of death.

Since we have received the first fruits of the Spirit, believers, under the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit, already enjoy a taste of what our eternal life will be in the fullness of time. We will have complete fulfillment and perfection of what we enjoy only in part in this present world (1Co. 13:12,13).

We are already justified, sanctified and secure in our Redeemer, but we are not yet complete to the full extent of the Word. Full satisfaction is that for which we long, look and hope for (Ps 17:15). That blessed hope of being fully like Christ is not simply a wish or a desire, but based on God's promise and the full expectation of its completion in Christ by faith. A desire already experienced or seen is not hope. When we are in full possession, having received our glorified bodies, hope (confident expectation) becomes reality and faith gives way to sight.

When our confident expectation (hope) of forgiveness, salvation and full redemption is in Christ and His blessed promises (though we do not yet see nor possess the fulfillment of all His promises), we patiently wait for them, for His promises are as sure as His Word.

Tit 1:1 ¶ Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Not only does confident expectation (hope) of future glory (in and through His Word) lead us to wait patiently for deliverance and resurrection, but the Holy Spirit also bears us up in our weakness.

Many Blessings,
RW

ProjectPeter
Jan 6th 2009, 07:35 PM
The hope spoken of here is a confident expectation that comes through saving faith! That hope is knowing that we will receive fully what has been promised, though we don't yet see the fullness of eternal life while still wearing these corrupt mortal bodies of death (flesh). The whole creation now burdened through sin desires to be delivered from this bondage, we too from bondage to corrupt bodies of death.

Since we have received the first fruits of the Spirit, believers, under the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit, already enjoy a taste of what our eternal life will be in the fullness of time. We will have complete fulfillment and perfection of what we enjoy only in part in this present world (1Co. 13:12,13).

We are already justified, sanctified and secure in our Redeemer, but we are not yet complete to the full extent of the Word. Full satisfaction is that for which we long, look and hope for (Ps 17:15). That blessed hope of being fully like Christ is not simply a wish or a desire, but based on God's promise and the full expectation of its completion in Christ by faith. A desire already experienced or seen is not hope. When we are in full possession, having received our glorified bodies, hope (confident expectation) becomes reality and faith gives way to sight.

When our confident expectation (hope) of forgiveness, salvation and full redemption is in Christ and His blessed promises (though we do not yet see nor possess the fulfillment of all His promises), we patiently wait for them, for His promises are as sure as His Word.

Tit 1:1 ¶ Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Not only does confident expectation (hope) of future glory (in and through His Word) lead us to wait patiently for deliverance and resurrection, but the Holy Spirit also bears us up in our weakness.

Many Blessings,
RWThat passage isn't speaking of our death naturally. It is about our adoption as sons. Right? Again... we have no need to confidently expect something that we have already... right?

alethos
Jan 6th 2009, 08:14 PM
How can we know with blessed assurance that we will work out our salvation with fear and trembling?

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Good now put both verses together.

Phi 2:12 So then, my dear friends, just as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now even more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Phi 2:13 For it is God who is working in you, enabling you both to will and to act for His good purpose.

God works and enables us co-operate and work with Him.

The follow is from Vincent's Word Studies Commentary on the Phil 2:12

"There is a saving work which God only can do for you; but there is also a work which you must do for yourselves. The work of your salvation is not completed in God's work in you. God's work must be carried out by yourselves. “Whatever rest is provided by Christianity for the children of God, it is certainly never contemplated that it should supersede personal effort. And any rest which ministers to indifference is immoral and unreal - it makes parasites and not men. Just because God worketh in him, as the evidence and triumph of it, the true child of God works out his own salvation - works it out having really received it - not as a light thing, a superfluous labor, but with fear and trembling as a reasonable and indispensable service” (Drummond, “Natural Law in the Spiritual World,” p. 335). Human agency is included in God's completed work. In the saving work of grace God imparts a new moral power to work. Compare Rom_6:8-13; 2Co_6:1. Believe as if you had no power. Work as if you had no God."

Along the same line James said;
James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deluding your own selves.

RogerW
Jan 6th 2009, 08:30 PM
That passage isn't speaking of our death naturally. It is about our adoption as sons. Right? Again... we have no need to confidently expect something that we have already... right?

Since we have (past tense) been adopted as sons, we have confident expectation (hope) of being raised bodily at the end of this age. As I have already said, we don't yet possess the fullness of eternal life, even though we have already been given eternal life in Christ by His Spirit living in us.

The natural body is a dying body, subject to afflictions, diseases, infirmities and finally death, because of sin. But if the Spirit of God dwells in us (by grace through faith), death is not the end, for He that raised Christ from the dead shall also, in the fullness of time, raise our bodies from the grave (1Co 15:12-22; 42-44). Our bodies won't always be in corruption and ruin, but shall be raised in the image of Christ (1Jo 3:1-3).

Ro 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Now we are in Christ, having been made alive by the power of the Word and Spirit. Our interest is no longer the flesh, materialism and things of this world, but the kingdom of God and His righteousness, since to be fleshly-minded is a sign of the absence of the Spirit of Christ. Since our flesh, and all pertaining to the flesh shall die and we shall be raised in His likeness, we are not obligated to live for the flesh and this world, but to live unto Christ, Who redeemed (past tense) us. Just because we have been freed from condemnation and death, does not mean we are freed from obedience; but to whom much is forgiven, he will love much.

Believers are in Christ NOW and shall live with Christ forever!

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Jan 6th 2009, 08:35 PM
Good now put both verses together.

Phi 2:12 So then, my dear friends, just as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now even more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Phi 2:13 For it is God who is working in you, enabling you both to will and to act for His good purpose.

God works and enables us co-operate and work with Him.

The follow is from Vincent's Word Studies Commentary on the Phil 2:12

"There is a saving work which God only can do for you; but there is also a work which you must do for yourselves. The work of your salvation is not completed in God's work in you. God's work must be carried out by yourselves. “Whatever rest is provided by Christianity for the children of God, it is certainly never contemplated that it should supersede personal effort. And any rest which ministers to indifference is immoral and unreal - it makes parasites and not men. Just because God worketh in him, as the evidence and triumph of it, the true child of God works out his own salvation - works it out having really received it - not as a light thing, a superfluous labor, but with fear and trembling as a reasonable and indispensable service” (Drummond, “Natural Law in the Spiritual World,” p. 335). Human agency is included in God's completed work. In the saving work of grace God imparts a new moral power to work. Compare Rom_6:8-13; 2Co_6:1. Believe as if you had no power. Work as if you had no God."

Along the same line James said;
James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deluding your own selves.

Deleted by RW; sloppy exegesis of the commentary.

ProjectPeter
Jan 6th 2009, 08:36 PM
Since we have (past tense) been adopted as sons, we have confident expectation (hope) of being raised bodily at the end of this age. As I have already said, we don't yet possess the fullness of eternal life, even though we have already been given eternal life in Christ by His Spirit living in us.

The natural body is a dying body, subject to afflictions, diseases, infirmities and finally death, because of sin. But if the Spirit of God dwells in us (by grace through faith), death is not the end, for He that raised Christ from the dead shall also, in the fullness of time, raise our bodies from the grave (1Co 15:12-22; 42-44). Our bodies won't always be in corruption and ruin, but shall be raised in the image of Christ (1Jo 3:1-3).

Ro 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Now we are in Christ, having been made alive by the power of the Word and Spirit. Our interest is no longer the flesh, materialism and things of this world, but the kingdom of God and His righteousness, since to be fleshly-minded is a sign of the absence of the Spirit of Christ. Since our flesh, and all pertaining to the flesh shall die and we shall be raised in His likeness, we are not obligated to live for the flesh and this world, but to live unto Christ, Who redeemed (past tense) us. Just because we have been freed from condemnation and death, does not mean we are freed from obedience; but to whom much is forgiven, he will love much.

Believers are in Christ NOW and shall live with Christ forever!

Many Blessings,
RWActually... what we have is a "spirit of adoption" but that isn't the adoption itself. I mean what does Paul actually say in that verse... certainly he isn't speaking in "past tense" when he says...

Romans 8:23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

No need to wait eagerly for an event that has already past is there?

RogerW
Jan 6th 2009, 08:43 PM
Good now put both verses together.

Phi 2:12 So then, my dear friends, just as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now even more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Phi 2:13 For it is God who is working in you, enabling you both to will and to act for His good purpose.

God works and enables us co-operate and work with Him.

The follow is from Vincent's Word Studies Commentary on the Phil 2:12

"There is a saving work which God only can do for you; but there is also a work which you must do for yourselves. The work of your salvation is not completed in God's work in you. God's work must be carried out by yourselves. “Whatever rest is provided by Christianity for the children of God, it is certainly never contemplated that it should supersede personal effort. And any rest which ministers to indifference is immoral and unreal - it makes parasites and not men. Just because God worketh in him, as the evidence and triumph of it, the true child of God works out his own salvation - works it out having really received it - not as a light thing, a superfluous labor, but with fear and trembling as a reasonable and indispensable service” (Drummond, “Natural Law in the Spiritual World,” p. 335). Human agency is included in God's completed work. In the saving work of grace God imparts a new moral power to work. Compare Rom_6:8-13; 2Co_6:1. Believe as if you had no power. Work as if you had no God."

Along the same line James said;
James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deluding your own selves.

I read this a bit too casually. At second glance the author makes the work of salvation by grace plus the work of man. This as we should all know is man centered rather than God centered.

Sorry about the confusion.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Jan 6th 2009, 08:56 PM
Actually... what we have is a "spirit of adoption" but that isn't the adoption itself. I mean what does Paul actually say in that verse... certainly he isn't speaking in "past tense" when he says...

Romans 8:23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

No need to wait eagerly for an event that has already past is there?

Ken, who has received the redemption of our bodies already? This is what we are longing for, and eagerly waiting for.

Ro 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

Php 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

We have confident expectation (hope) because we have been sealed with the Holy Spirit, the first fruits of that which is to come. To be sealed is to be stamped with ownership.

2Co 1:21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Blessings,
RW

ProjectPeter
Jan 6th 2009, 09:08 PM
Ken, who has received the redemption of our bodies already? This is what we are longing for, and eagerly waiting for.

Ro 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

Php 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

We have confident expectation (hope) because we have been sealed with the Holy Spirit, the first fruits of that which is to come. To be sealed is to be stamped with ownership.

2Co 1:21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Blessings,
RW
Roger... isn't it at the redemption of our bodies that we'll be adopted as sons?

Romans 8:23 *And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

Notice... Paul is focusing on that "adoption" which he list first and it is at the redemption of our bodies when that takes place... right?

Yukerboy
Jan 6th 2009, 10:30 PM
Roger... isn't it at the redemption of our bodies that we'll be adopted as sons?

Romans 8:23 *And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

Notice... Paul is focusing on that "adoption" which he list first and it is at the redemption of our bodies when that takes place... right?

Oh my....I'm really going to need to re-study some.

What is born of Spirit is of Spirit, meaning God. What is born of God is a child of God. A son of God is God's son forever.

The adoption....would that be the flesh?

RogerW
Jan 6th 2009, 11:10 PM
Roger... isn't it at the redemption of our bodies that we'll be adopted as sons?

Romans 8:23 *And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

Notice... Paul is focusing on that "adoption" which he list first and it is at the redemption of our bodies when that takes place... right?

Ken, the passage is focusing on the fact that we are made sons of God and joint heirs with Christ when we are born of the Spirit. And we will receive the fullness of adoption (bodily resurrection) at the Second Coming of Christ.

We (those who possess saving faith) are NOW the sons of God (Jo 1:12; 1Jo 3:1,2). Now we call Him Abba, Father. The Holy Spirit (by His presence in us and through the Word) bears witness that we are the sons of God. The Holy Spirit bears this witness to our spirits, not to our natural eyes and ears, but to our hearts (for it is internal), to our souls (where faith receives it) and to our understanding (that we may have assurance) 1Jo 5:20.

Ro 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Ro 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Ro 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Ga 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
Ga 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Ga 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Ga 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Ga 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Children of the same father, whether natural or adopted, are heirs! By nature we are the children of wrath, but by His will and grace we are NOW children of God (Ja 1:18). Being (now) the sons of God, we are the heirs of His grace, His blessings, His kingdom and all things (1Co 3:21-23). 'Joint-heirs with Christ' means that it is through Him and with Him that we are heirs of God and His glory (Eph 1:3-7).

To be an heir is to have His promise. Now we are sons through the Spirit that dwells in us, and in the fullness of time we will inherit the fullness of this promised son-ship bodily. We are NOW sons, and if a son then an heir of God through Christ.

Many Blessings,
RW

ProjectPeter
Jan 6th 2009, 11:10 PM
Oh my....I'm really going to need to re-study some.

What is born of Spirit is of Spirit, meaning God. What is born of God is a child of God. A son of God is God's son forever.

The adoption....would that be the flesh?
No... not the flesh. :)

Read around that whole section and then think about the word "faith" as you read that part of chapter 8... what is our faith in?... our hope?

ProjectPeter
Jan 6th 2009, 11:22 PM
Ken, the passage is focusing on the fact that we are made sons of God and joint heirs with Christ when we are born of the Spirit. And we will receive the fullness of adoption (bodily resurrection) at the Second Coming of Christ.

We (those who possess saving faith) are NOW the sons of God (Jo 1:12; 1Jo 3:1,2). Now we call Him Abba, Father. The Holy Spirit (by His presence in us and through the Word) bears witness that we are the sons of God. The Holy Spirit bears this witness to our spirits, not to our natural eyes and ears, but to our hearts (for it is internal), to our souls (where faith receives it) and to our understanding (that we may have assurance) 1Jo 5:20.

Ro 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Ro 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Ro 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Ga 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
Ga 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Ga 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Ga 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Ga 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Children of the same father, whether natural or adopted, are heirs! By nature we are the children of wrath, but by His will and grace we are NOW children of God (Ja 1:18). Being (now) the sons of God, we are the heirs of His grace, His blessings, His kingdom and all things (1Co 3:21-23). 'Joint-heirs with Christ' means that it is through Him and with Him that we are heirs of God and His glory (Eph 1:3-7).

To be an heir is to have His promise. Now we are sons through the Spirit that dwells in us, and in the fullness of time we will inherit the fullness of this promised son-ship bodily. We are NOW sons, and if a son then an heir of God through Christ.

Many Blessings,
RW
But what does it actually say... and it does mention that whole "if you" and mentions the endurance etc. It says "adoptions as sons". Now... we can add to it to fit our doctrinal leaning sure... but one must admit that one has to add to it to come to the conclusion that you are saying Paul really meant to say even though that ain't quite what Paul said. ;)

RogerW
Jan 6th 2009, 11:41 PM
But what does it actually say... and it does mention that whole "if you" and mentions the endurance etc. It says "adoptions as sons". Now... we can add to it to fit our doctrinal leaning sure... but one must admit that one has to add to it to come to the conclusion that you are saying Paul really meant to say even though that ain't quite what Paul said. ;)

Yes, if we are sons then we are an heir through Christ. This is clearly what Scripture teaches, and not my doctrinal leaning. I'm not saying Paul really meant to say anything, but I am showing what Scripture actually teaches. We know that when we are in Christ by grace through faith, then we ARE sons of God and as sons, joint-heirs with Christ of every blessing.

Many Blessings,
RW

alethos
Jan 6th 2009, 11:46 PM
I read this a bit too casually. At second glance the author makes the work of salvation by grace plus the work of man. This as we should all know is man centered rather than God centered.

Sorry about the confusion.

Many Blessings,
RW


Isn't Scripture our final say? Should we accept what verse 13 says, and ignore what verse 12 says?

Phil 2:12 So then, my dear friends, just as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now even more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Phil 2:13 For it is God who is working in you, enabling you both to will and to act for His good purpose.

In verse 12 above Paul says, "we are to work out our own salvation"
Was Paul mistaken?

Verse 13 says God is working, enabling you do what is commanded us in in verse 12

"work out your own salvation"
"the salvation of the soul will not take care of itself without an effort on our part."
that does not mean:
(a)that we are to attempt to deserve salvation on the ground of merit. That is out of the question; for what can man do that shall be an equivalent for eternal happiness in heaven? Nor,
(b) does it mean that we are to endeavor to make atonement for past sins. That would be equally impossible, and it is, besides, unnecessary. That work has been done by the great Redeemer.
But it means:
(i) that we are to make an honest effort to be saved in the way which God has appointed;
(ii) that we are to break off from our sins by true repentance;
(iii) that we are to believe in the Saviour, and honestly to put our trust in him;
(iv) that we are to give up all that we have to God;
(v) that we are to break away from all evil companions and evil plans of life; and,
(vi) that we are to resist all the allurements of the world, and all the temptations which may assail us that would lead us back from God, and are to persevere unto the end. The great difficulty in working out salvation is in forming a purpose to begin at once. When that purpose is formed, salvation is easy.
With fear and trembling - That is, with that kind of anxiety which one has who feels that he has an important interest at stake, and that he is in danger of losing it. The reason or the ground for “fear” in this case is in general this: there is danger of losing the soul.
(1) so many persons make shipwreck of all hope and perish, that there is danger that we may also.
(2) there are so many temptations and allurements in the world, and so many things that lead us to defer attention to religion, that there is danger that we may be lost.
(3) there is danger that if the present opportunity passes, another may not occur. Death may soon overtake us. No one has a moment to lose. No one can designate one single moment of his life, and say, “I may safely lose that moment. I may safely spend it in the neglect of my soul.”
(4) it should be done with the most earnest concern, front the immensity of the interest at stake. If the soul is lost, all is lost. And who is there that can estimate the value of that soul which is thus in danger of being lost forever?
(A. Barnes on verse 12)

ProjectPeter
Jan 7th 2009, 12:01 AM
Yes, if we are sons then we are an heir through Christ. This is clearly what Scripture teaches, and not my doctrinal leaning. I'm not saying Paul really meant to say anything, but I am showing what Scripture actually teaches. We know that when we are in Christ by grace through faith, then we ARE sons of God and as sons, joint-heirs with Christ of every blessing.

Many Blessings,
RW
Through faith but not yet... not in actuality. That doesn't come until we are in fact adopted as sons at the redemption of our bodies... and please show me where that isn't exactly what Paul is saying... taking away nothing nor adding anything. That is what he says... right?

RogerW
Jan 7th 2009, 01:26 AM
Through faith but not yet... not in actuality. That doesn't come until we are in fact adopted as sons at the redemption of our bodies... and please show me where that isn't exactly what Paul is saying... taking away nothing nor adding anything. That is what he says... right?

Ken, that is exactly what Paul is saying! What else does Paul have to say about adoption? Does he leave adoption only in a future tense when we receive the fullness of the promise bodily? Or does Scripture affirm that we are NOW called the sons of God, as thus, we will be conformed to the image of Christ? When we are in Christ we are (present tense) the sons of God, even though we do not yet see what we shall be, we know when He comes we shall be like Him.

1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Since we have this confident expectation (hope) in Him, we have a work of faith, desiring to be pure as He is pure. Since He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him is no sin, when we abide in Him we don't continue in sin. To continue in sin when we profess to be in Christ shows that we do not know Him.

1Jo 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jo 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Ga 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Many Blessings,
RW

ProjectPeter
Jan 7th 2009, 01:30 AM
Ken, that is exactly what Paul is saying! What else does Paul have to say about adoption? Does he leave adoption only in a future tense when we receive the fullness of the promise bodily? Or does Scripture affirm that we are NOW called the sons of God, as thus, we will be conformed to the image of Christ? When we are in Christ we are (present tense) the sons of God, even though we do not yet see what we shall be, we know when He comes we shall be like Him.

1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Since we have this confident expectation (hope) in Him, we have a work of faith, desiring to be pure as He is pure. Since He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him is no sin, when we abide in Him we don't continue in sin. To continue in sin when we profess to be in Christ shows that we do not know Him.

1Jo 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jo 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Ga 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Many Blessings,
RW
Sure Roger... by faith. By faith is the key to all of that. It is reality by faith. But it isn't reality by finality. That comes once we've endured to the end and not until that appointed time whenever our end might be.

My heart's Desire
Jan 7th 2009, 05:59 AM
Sure you are. If Paul wanted to further clarify his point then he'd of added the other part of that passage. Paul wasn't focusing on the folks that looked at the serpent on the pole and lived.... he was focusing on the point that they got themselves to the point where the curse came on them.

You disagree because that is your doctrine. ;) No. None are worthy thus comes grace. But rest assured... one must endure to the end. If you don't... you won't be see that final salvation to come.If my doctrine is faith and trust in Christ alone for all of my salvation of which I cannot add or subtract from then so be it.
All Scripture is given for our learning, so yes I looked at the whole passage from which Paul pulled the illustration so to keep it in context. Yes, he gave the illustrative verse for his focus of the problem of how the people got themselves to that point but in Numbers there was also the solution. Just as we sin and look to Christ as our solution, so they did also and you can't do that after you die, you must do it before.

alethos
Jan 7th 2009, 12:34 PM
I know I have said it before, and I will say it again, because it always seems to fall upon deaf ears.

Scripture repeatedly states that we must endure to the end if final salvation is to result.

Both Paul and Barnabas spoke in order to persuade believers of the necessity to continue in the grace of God. Why? Could it be that there exists the possibility that that would not continue in the grace of God. Must be!
Acts 13:43 After the synagogue had been dismissed, many of the Jews and devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who were speaking with them and persuading them to continue in the grace of God.

Next we find Paul exhorting the disciples of the necessity of continuing in the faith. Why? Could it be that there existed a possiblity that the disciples wouldn't continue in the faith? Must be!
Acts 14:22 confirming the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that through many tribulations we must enter into the kingdom of God.

Once again, Paul told believers that they would be presented before God at a future date, if they continue in the faith. Why? Did Paul think there existed a possibility that they wouldn't continue in the faith? Must be!
Col 1:22 yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and without blemish and unreproveable before him:
Col 1:23 if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, which was preached in all creation under heaven; whereof I Paul was made a minister.

There are other verses I could include to stress my point, but hopefully those above will suffice.

Yukerboy
Jan 7th 2009, 12:40 PM
I know I have said it before, and I will say it again, because it always seems to fall upon deaf ears.

Scripture repeatedly states that we must endure to the end if final salvation is to result.

Both Paul and Barnabas spoke in order to persuade believers of the necessity to continue in the grace of God. Why? Could it be that there exists the possibility that that would not continue in the grace of God. Must be!
Acts 13:43 After the synagogue had been dismissed, many of the Jews and devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who were speaking with them and persuading them to continue in the grace of God.

Next we find Paul exhorting the disciples of the necessity of continuing in the faith. Why? Could it be that there existed a possiblity that the disciples wouldn't continue in the faith? Must be!
Acts 14:22 confirming the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that through many tribulations we must enter into the kingdom of God.

Once again, Paul told believers that they would be presented before God at a future date, if they continue in the faith. Why? Did Paul think there existed a possibility that they wouldn't continue in the faith? Must be!
Col 1:22 yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and without blemish and unreproveable before him:
Col 1:23 if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, which was preached in all creation under heaven; whereof I Paul was made a minister.

There are other verses I could include to stress my point, but hopefully those above will suffice.

Just as I know I have said this before yet it seems to fall on deaf ears.

The born again WILL endure to the end. It is a promise of God to those who are born again. My God never fails to keep His promises.

If someone does not endure to the end, they are like the seed that fell on the rocky places. They sprung up, believed for a while, and then fell away.

Those who are born of God will be sons of God forever and made co-heirs with Christ. Those who are not born of God will either not believe, or believe for a while and fall away.

alethos
Jan 7th 2009, 12:48 PM
Just as I know I have said this before yet it seems to fall on deaf ears.

The born again WILL endure to the end. It is a promise of God to those who are born again. My God never fails to keep His promises.

If someone does not endure to the end, they are like the seed that fell on the rocky places. They sprung up, believed for a while, and then fell away.

Those who are born of God will be sons of God forever and made co-heirs with Christ. Those who are not born of God will either not believe, or believe for a while and fall away.

Thanks for the reply. However I will believe the plain words of Jesus.
John 15:6 If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown aside like a branch and he withers. They gather them, throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

.

Yukerboy
Jan 7th 2009, 01:14 PM
Thanks for the reply. However I will believe the plain words of Jesus.
John 15:6 If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown aside like a branch and he withers. They gather them, throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

.

So will I...

John 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit.

2 Corinthians 1:21 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:8 He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

John 5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."

So, who are thrown into the fire and are burned? Those that have crossed over from death to life? No. God makes them stand firm in Christ.

Does God fail? Mine doesn't.

alethos
Jan 7th 2009, 01:21 PM
So, who are thrown into the fire and are burned?

Who did Jesus say?

John 15:6 If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown aside like a branch and he withers. They gather them, throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Those who don't remain in Him!

Jesus own words, not mine!

ProjectPeter
Jan 7th 2009, 01:22 PM
If my doctrine is faith and trust in Christ alone for all of my salvation of which I cannot add or subtract from then so be it.
All Scripture is given for our learning, so yes I looked at the whole passage from which Paul pulled the illustration so to keep it in context. Yes, he gave the illustrative verse for his focus of the problem of how the people got themselves to that point but in Numbers there was also the solution. Just as we sin and look to Christ as our solution, so they did also and you can't do that after you die, you must do it before.And keep in mind... even though the pole was amid them... they had to look upon it to live even though they weren't dead yet... just bitten. ;)

Yukerboy
Jan 7th 2009, 01:29 PM
Who did Jesus say?

John 15:6 If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown aside like a branch and he withers. They gather them, throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Those who don't remain in Him!

Jesus own words, not mine!

Correct! And those who are born again have crossed over from death to life. Those who are born again will remain in Him for God makes us stand firm in Him.

Therefore, those who don't remain in Him are not born again or Christ lied and God failed.

alethos
Jan 7th 2009, 01:44 PM
Therefore, those who don't remain in Him are not born again or Christ lied and God failed.

Since Jesus doesn't lie, it must be that you might be mistaken, which I believe is more likely the case. Often times ones theological leaning prevents them from seeing the truth.

A careful reading of John 15 will confirm otherwise. Especially since verse 2 says those "in Him" can be cut off.
John 15:2 Every branch in Me that does not produce fruit He removes
To say that Christ has those "in Him" who are not born again goes against the Scriptural teaching that if anyone is in Him he is a new creature.
2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation

On a short commentary note:
A person 'in Me' is always a true Christian." - Joseph C. Dillow, "Abiding Is Remaining in Fellowship: Another Look at John 15:1-6," Bibliotheca Sacra 147:585 (January-March 1990):44-53.

RogerW
Jan 7th 2009, 04:08 PM
Sure Roger... by faith. By faith is the key to all of that. It is reality by faith. But it isn't reality by finality. That comes once we've endured to the end and not until that appointed time whenever our end might be.

Absolutely Ken, by faith! And that faith must be tried and tested, and it must endure to the end. How do I know whether or not faith will carry me to the end of this journey through life? How can I be certain that faith will not fail, and that I will not in the end be shown to be of those whom Christ does not know? Quite frankly if I relied upon my own faith to keep me, then I would indeed lack certainty or security. But since I am crucified with Christ, I now live in the flesh by the faith OF the Son of God, Who loves me, and gave Himself for me.

Ga 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Ga 1:3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,
Ga 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

Ro 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Re 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

We will never be disqualified since we have been born again, because Christ has given Himself for me, and delivered me from all iniquity. Since I have been washed in the blood of the Lamb, I have complete assurance that He will complete in me the work He has begun. Those who live this life lacking assurance of salvation are those who are not relying on the faithfulness of Christ to keep His promises.

Many Blessings,
RW

ProjectPeter
Jan 7th 2009, 04:46 PM
Absolutely Ken, by faith! And that faith must be tried and tested, and it must endure to the end. How do I know whether or not faith will carry me to the end of this journey through life? How can I be certain that faith will not fail, and that I will not in the end be shown to be of those whom Christ does not know? Quite frankly if I relied upon my own faith to keep me, then I would indeed lack certainty or security. But since I am crucified with Christ, I now live in the flesh by the faith OF the Son of God, Who loves me, and gave Himself for me.

Ga 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Ga 1:3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,
Ga 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

Ro 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Re 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

We will never be disqualified since we have been born again, because Christ has given Himself for me, and delivered me from all iniquity. Since I have been washed in the blood of the Lamb, I have complete assurance that He will complete in me the work He has begun. Those who live this life lacking assurance of salvation are those who are not relying on the faithfulness of Christ to keep His promises.

Many Blessings,
RW
You can because you have faith. But then one that gets cocky in that faith is the one that needs to take heed lest he fall. That is exactly what Paul is speaking of in that passage that began this post and continued on in the tenth chapter which is why I posted that very thing. It's been a long time showing so I'll post it again.

1 Corinthians 9:23 *And I do all things for the sake of the gospel, that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
24 *¶Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
25 *And everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
26 *Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
27 *but I buffet my body and make it my slave, lest possibly, after I have preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.

1 Corinthians 10:1 *For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 *and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 *and all ate the same spiritual food;
4 *and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
5 *Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.
6 *Now these things happened as examples for us, that we should not crave evil things, as they also craved.
7 *And do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, "THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TO PLAY."
8 *Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day.
9 *Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents.
10 *Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer.
11 *Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
12 *Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.

RogerW
Jan 7th 2009, 05:10 PM
You can because you have faith. But then one that gets cocky in that faith is the one that needs to take heed lest he fall. That is exactly what Paul is speaking of in that passage that began this post and continued on in the tenth chapter which is why I posted that very thing. It's been a long time showing so I'll post it again.

1 Corinthians 9:23 *And I do all things for the sake of the gospel, that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
24 *¶Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
25 *And everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
26 *Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
27 *but I buffet my body and make it my slave, lest possibly, after I have preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.

1 Corinthians 10:1 *For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 *and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 *and all ate the same spiritual food;
4 *and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
5 *Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.
6 *Now these things happened as examples for us, that we should not crave evil things, as they also craved.
7 *And do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, "THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TO PLAY."
8 *Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day.
9 *Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents.
10 *Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer.
11 *Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
12 *Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.

The nation was not living by faith, they were living in a manner that showed they had NO FAITH! I too would be as cocky as they, if I think, like they did, that I have something to boast of. But I have nothing to boast about because I KNOW WHOSE faith is keeping me. It is not my own faith that saved me, nor is it my own faith that is keeping me safe, but by the gift of God I am blessed with a faith (through the Spirit, by the Spirit and in the Spirit) that does not come from me. Yes, it is my work of faith, but it is by grace, through His faith that I am saved and kept *by/through/in* Christ alone. I have no faith apart from His faith living and working in and through me.

Grace is the divine influence upon my heart, being made whole through the persuasion of the Holy Spirit applying the Word to my heart, not only in new birth, but being kept by the power of God.

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Many Blessings,
RW

ProjectPeter
Jan 7th 2009, 05:33 PM
That's all religious speak though. Let's translate that. I am part of the "elect" of God therefore I am in like flint!

That's the rough version sure... but that's where the rubber meets the road. And everyone, my use of elect isn't just a Calvinism thing... rest assured that there are a boat load of folks that have that same attitude so that isn't where I am taking this by use of that comment.

Yukerboy
Jan 7th 2009, 06:39 PM
Since Jesus doesn't lie, it must be that you might be mistaken, which I believe is more likely the case. Often times ones theological leaning prevents them from seeing the truth.

A careful reading of John 15 will confirm otherwise. Especially since verse 2 says those "in Him" can be cut off.
John 15:2 Every branch in Me that does not produce fruit He removes
To say that Christ has those "in Him" who are not born again goes against the Scriptural teaching that if anyone is in Him he is a new creature.
2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation

On a short commentary note:
A person 'in Me' is always a true Christian." - Joseph C. Dillow, "Abiding Is Remaining in Fellowship: Another Look at John 15:1-6," Bibliotheca Sacra 147:585 (January-March 1990):44-53.

Since God doesn't lie then He (God) will keep you (those sanctified in Christ Jesus) strong to the end, so that you (those sanctified in Christ Jesus) will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 1:8).

So, since it seems to conflict, then the interpretation of the branches in Christ cannot be those sanctified in Christ.

All Scripture is correct and when it seems to conflict, the assumption (A person 'in Me' is always a true Christian." - Joseph C. Dillow,) must be let go.

alethos
Jan 7th 2009, 07:14 PM
Since God doesn't lie then He (God) will keep you (those sanctified in Christ Jesus) strong to the end, so that you (those sanctified in Christ Jesus) will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 1:8).

So, since it seems to conflict, then the interpretation of the branches in Christ cannot be those sanctified in Christ.

All Scripture is correct and when it seems to conflict, the assumption (A person 'in Me' is always a true Christian." - Joseph C. Dillow,) must be let go.

John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh it away:
2 Cor. 5:17 Wherefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature:

Previously, you said those in John 15 are not born again, to which I proved you wrong by use of Scripture. Now you come back and say they cannot be sanctified. In other words you believe there are unsanctified branches "in Him"
Once again that doesn't refute John 15, because it is not possible that any unsanctified branches could be referred to as being "in Him"

No my friend those in Him (in Christ) are new creatures in Christ. The term "new creature" refers to those who are born again.

.

RogerW
Jan 7th 2009, 09:07 PM
John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh it away:
2 Cor. 5:17 Wherefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature:

Previously, you said those in John 15 are not born again, to which I proved you wrong by use of Scripture. Now you come back and say they cannot be sanctified. In other words you believe there are unsanctified branches "in Him"
Once again that doesn't refute John 15, because it is not possible that any unsanctified branches could be referred to as being "in Him"

No my friend those in Him (in Christ) are new creatures in Christ. The term "new creature" refers to those who are born again.

.

There are some who outwardly (like the nation) are in Him, but they (like the nation) bear no fruit so He will take them away (like the nation). If they are in Him why do they not bear fruit? Makes no sense until we continue reading. Some have attached themselves to His covenant body (church) and appear to be in Christ. In fact they are in Him outwardly. The reason they do not bear fruit is because (like the nation) they are clinging to Him outwardly, but He is NOT in them, therefore they do not possess saving faith. Apart from Him no one can bear fruit. These are those who are doing all manner of good works in His name, in His character, but without Christ. They think their good deeds will fit them for eternal life, they do not realize that salvation is of the Lord by grace through faith that is not their own, but the gift of God.

Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

In the fullness of time all these false professors, so-called good workers will hear Christ say, "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

Those who are truly abiding in Christ will bring forth fruit because Christ is abiding in them and, "worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

As the text tells us without Him abiding in us, and we abiding in Him, we can do nothing!

alethos
Jan 7th 2009, 09:14 PM
Some have attached themselves to His covenant body (church) and appear to be in Christ.

The following verse records words which Jesus Himself spoke.

John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh it away:

Did Jesus say they only appear to be in Him?
No!!!!!!!

He said they were in fact in Him
Was Jesus mistaken?

"Our Lord in the plainest manner intimates that a person may as truly be united to Him as the branch is to the tree that produces it, and yet be afterwards cut off and cast into the fire, because he has not brought forth fruit to the glory of His God. No man can cut off a branch from a tree to which that branch was never united; it is absurd, and contrary to the letter and spirit of the metaphor, to talk of being "seemingly" in Christ - because this means nothing. If there was only a seeming union there could be only a seeming excision. So the matter is just where it began; nothing is done on either side, and nothing said to any purpose. He is cast forth. Observe that person who abides not in Christ in a believing, loving, obedient spirit, (1) is cut off from Jesus, having no longer any right or title to Him or to His salvation. (2) He is withered - deprived of all the influences of God's grace and Spirit. (3) He is gathered - becomes (through the judgment of God) again united with backsliders like himself and other workers of iniquity. And being abandoned to his own heart and Satan, he (4) is cast into the fire - separated from God's people, from God himself, and from the glory of His power. And (5) he is burned - is eternally tormented with the devil and his angels, and with all those who have lived and died in their iniquity. (Adam Clarke)

RogerW
Jan 7th 2009, 09:53 PM
The following verse records words which Jesus Himself spoke.

John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh it away:

Did Jesus say they only appear to be in Him?
No!!!!!!!

He said they were in fact in Him
Was Jesus mistaken?

Of course they are in Him!!! Does the verse say He is in them? NO! No wonder they did not bear fruit and He takes them away! In order to bear fruit not only must one be in Christ, but He must also be in them. As you've been told (several times now), they were in Him for a time, but since they did not have Christ abiding in them; i.e. they had no saving faith, they did not bear fruit, showing they have NOT saving faith. Is Jesus mistaken when He says no man can bear fruit unless he be in Christ and Christ be in him?

Yukerboy
Jan 7th 2009, 09:57 PM
They are neither born again nor sanctified.

They do not remain in Him, (notice not by choice, but because Christ takes them away)

The born again cannot be condemned (John 3:18, John 5:24, Romans 8:1). They have crossed from death to life (John 5:24, Romans 6:13). Life is a gift (John 6:27) of God and God's gifts are irrevocable (Romans 11:29).

Now, I ask you...

He (God) will keep you (those sanctified in Christ Jesus) strong to the end, so that you (those sanctified in Christ Jesus) will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 1:8).

Is this Scripture wrong or correct?

alethos
Jan 7th 2009, 11:43 PM
Of course they are in Him!!! Does the verse say He is in them? NO! No wonder they did not bear fruit and He takes them away! In order to bear fruit not only must one be in Christ, but He must also be in them. As you've been told (several times now), they were in Him for a time, but since they did not have Christ abiding in them; i.e. they had no saving faith, they did not bear fruit, showing they have NOT saving faith. Is Jesus mistaken when He says no man can bear fruit unless he be in Christ and Christ be in him?

Here's the gist of the trouble with your view,

1. Jesus says they are indeed in him - John 15:2
2. Paul says anyone in him is a new creature - 2 Cor 5:17. Being new creatures means they are born again.

Now Either ....

1. Paul and Jesus disagreed and Scripture is in error and contradictory, which is what your view is espousing when followed logically.

2. Or Jesus and Paul were both in agreement, and my view is correct and Scripture can be trusted.

However I can understand why people want to dance around the John 15 Scripture, to protect a pet doctrine of a certain theological school.

Yukerboy
Jan 7th 2009, 11:52 PM
However I can understand why people want to dance around the John 15Scripture, to protect a pet doctrine of a certain theological school.

Erm ahem 1 Corinthians 1:8 ahem *points* cough.

alethos
Jan 8th 2009, 12:16 AM
Now, I ask you...

He (God) will keep you (those sanctified in Christ Jesus) strong to the end, so that you (those sanctified in Christ Jesus) will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 1:8).

Is this Scripture wrong or correct?

Scripture isn't what is wrong, therefore I am inclined to believe your interpretation of the Scripture must be faulty.

1 Cor 1:8 who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye be unreproveable in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Who is the you in the above verse referring to?

It's those who are waiting for Christ's return. In other words believer's (see verse 7).

Belief is not a one time act, but a continious ongoing thing.

“In the New Testament, when belief is said to lead to eternal life, the verb tense expressing continuous action is always used while the tense expressing a single action is never used. The stress is thus placed on a continuous faith rather than on an isolated moment of faith."

John 20:31 but these are written, that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that (by continiously) believing ye may have life in his name.

John in his first Epistle also wrote:
1 John 2:24 As for you, let that abide in you which ye heard from the beginning. If that which ye heard from the beginning remains in you, ye also shall remain in the Son, and in the Father.

Paul exhorted believers of the necessity of continuing in the faith:
"exhorting them to continue in the faith," (Acts 14:22)
"If ye continue in the faith" (Col 1:23)

Paul also said some will (not may) depart from the faith - 1 Tim 4:1

And logically a person must be in the faith before he can depart from it.

Paul was able to write of those who had already cast off their first faith.
1 Tim 5:12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.

The author of Hebrews agrees with the other authors
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, (meaning fellow believer's in Christ) lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Paul also said:
Let no man deceive you (believer's) by any means: for that day (day of the Lord's return) shall not come, except there come a falling away first. (2 Thess. 2:3)

And what did Peter have to say on this subject?
2 Pet 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein and overcome, the last state is become worse with them than the first.
2 Pet 2:21 For it were better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2 Pet 2:22 It has happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog turning to his own vomit again, and the sow that had washed to wallowing in the mire.

"For if, after they have escaped the pollution of the world. If one who has been converted is enticed back again into his sins, his state is worse than before.
That this is possible is taught in many places. (2 Pet. 2:20 Peoples New Testament - B.W. Johnson 1891)

There you have it. I have provided you with the testimony of Scripture on the topic at hand.

If that isn't enough, let me know. There's plenty more where that came from.

Yukerboy
Jan 8th 2009, 12:36 AM
1 Cor 1:8 who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye be unreproveable in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Who is the you in the above verse referring to?

It's those are waiting for Christ's return. In other words believer's (see verse 7).

Belief is not a one time act, but a continious ongoing thing.

“In the New Testament, when belief is said to lead to eternal life, the verb tense expressing continuous action is always used while the tense expressing a single action is never used. The stress is thus placed on a continuous faith rather than on an isolated moment of faith.

John 20:31 but these are written, that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that (by continiously) believing ye may have life in his name.

John in his first Epistle also wrote:
1 Jhn 2:24 As for you, let that abide in you which ye heard from the beginning. If that which ye heard from the beginning remains in you, ye also shall remain in the Son, and in the Father.

Paul exhorted believers of the necessity of continuing in the faith:
"exhorting them to continue in the faith," (Acts 14:22)
"If ye continue in the faith" (Col 1:23)

Paul also said some will (not may) depart from the faith - 1 Tim 4:1

And logically a person must be in the faith before he can depart from it.

Paul was able to write of those who had already cast off their first faith.
1 Tim 5:12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.

The author of Hebrews agrees with the other authors
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, (meaning fellow believer's in Christ) lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Paul also said:
Let no man deceive you (believer's) by any means: for that day (day of the Lord's return) shall not come, except there come a falling away first. (2 Thess. 2:3)

And what did Peter have to say on this subject?
2 Pet 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein and overcome, the last state is become worse with them than the first.
2 Pet 2:21 For it were better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2 Pet 2:22 It has happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog turning to his own vomit again, and the sow that had washed to wallowing in the mire.

"For if, after they have escaped the pollution of the world. If one who has been converted is enticed back again into his sins, his state is worse than before.
That this is possible is taught in many places. (2 Pet. 2:20 Peoples New Testament - B.W. Johnson 1891)

There you have it. I have provided you with the testimony of Scripture on the topic at hand.

If that isn't enough, let me know. There's plenty more where that came from.


It must not be enough because I agree with everything you have said here.

Went through it word for word and cannot find one thing that sticks out to me saying "Alert, not right"

I think what we then have is a matter of incorrect definitions.

You have two sorts of believers.

One is like those that receive the word and believe for a while. They never belonged to us, for they were never of us, for had they been of us, they would have remained with us, but their going out from us showed they were never of us.

You then have the believer who is baptized with the Holy Spirit, who has been born again. He can never perish. He will never be condemned. He will be made to stand firm in the faith by God. He will endure to the end.

alethos
Jan 8th 2009, 01:08 AM
It must not be enough because I agree with everything you have said here.

Went through it word for word and cannot find one thing that sticks out to me saying "Alert, not right"

I think what we then have is a matter of incorrect definitions.

You have two sorts of believers.

One is like those that receive the word and believe for a while. They never belonged to us, for they were never of us, for had they been of us, they would have remained with us, but their going out from us showed they were never of us.

You then have the believer who is baptized with the Holy Spirit, who has been born again. He can never perish. He will never be condemned. He will be made to stand firm in the faith by God. He will endure to the end.

Well then we have come full circle, and were back to square one.

Jesus said:
Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh it away

Paul believed than those in Him are new creations in Christ. Meaning born again.
2 Cor 5:17 Wherefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature:

You'll have to deal with that. So far you really haven't.

The Parson
Jan 8th 2009, 08:18 PM
I'm in agreement on the subject coming full circle. Make your summations and thread will be closed probably this evening.

My heart's Desire
Jan 9th 2009, 12:45 AM
My summary is from 9:1 onward Paul defends his apostleship and continues with his running his race in ministry is such a way as to not be rejected by those he is preaching to. Disqualified means to be unapproved and he seeks to run the race as being proven and effective. As to do with his service. Take it or leave it. :D

RogerW
Jan 9th 2009, 12:48 AM
My summary is from 9:1 onward Paul defends his apostleship and continues with his running his race in ministry is such a way as to not be rejected by those he is preaching to. Disqualified means to be unapproved and he seeks to run the race as being proven and effective. As to do with his service. Take it or leave it. :D

I'll take it heart's desire!!! Makes perfect sense to me. :pp
A perfect end for a long discussion!

Many Blessings,
RW

theBelovedDisciple
Jan 9th 2009, 12:57 AM
My summary is from 9:1 onward Paul defends his apostleship and continues with his running his race in ministry is such a way as to not be rejected by those he is preaching to. Disqualified means to be unapproved and he seeks to run the race as being proven and effective. As to do with his service. Take it or leave it. :D

Excellent post.. and as we know he was not disqualified... but he 'knew' he had finished the 'race'.. he fought a good fight.. he kept the faith...and at that time 'knew' his time was up.. he was ready to be offered...the time of his departure was at hand.... he was going to take his last breath.. .......and He had done what God called him to do... and He accomplished this thru the One who converted Him on that Damascus road.. and thru the Power of His Mighty Spirit.. amen and amen..

My heart's Desire
Jan 9th 2009, 01:01 AM
Excellent post.. and as we know he was not disqualified... but he 'knew' he had finished the 'race'.. he fought a good fight.. he kept the faith...and at that time 'knew' his time was up.. he was ready to be offered...the time of his departure was at hand.... he was going to take his last breath.. .......and He had done what God called him to do... and He accomplished this thru the One who converted Him on that Damascus road.. and thru the Power of His Mighty Spirit.. amen and amen..
Thank you! Your post says it nicely also! Even better, as in and the end of the matter is! :)

alethos
Jan 9th 2009, 01:12 AM
1 Cor 9:27 but I buffet my body, and bring it into bondage: lest by any means, after that I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected.

"On the subject of the possibility of St. Paul becoming a castaway, much has been said in contradiction to his own words. He most absolutely states the possibility of the case: and who has a right to call this in question?"

In closing if anyone cares to read a good piece of commentary on 1 Cor. 9:27, then heres is a good link.
http://www.studylight.org/com/bnn/view.cgi?book=1co&chapter=9&verse=27#1Co9_27

My heart's Desire
Jan 9th 2009, 05:12 AM
1 Cor 9:27 but I buffet my body, and bring it into bondage: lest by any means, after that I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected.

"On the subject of the possibility of St. Paul becoming a castaway, much has been said in contradiction to his own words. He most absolutely states the possibility of the case: and who has a right to call this in question?"

In closing if anyone cares to read a good piece of commentary on 1 Cor. 9:27, then heres is a good link.
http://www.studylight.org/com/bnn/view.cgi?book=1co&chapter=9&verse=27#1Co9_27
And which view is right? Here is another commentary section.
http://www.studylight.org/com/geb/view.cgi?book=1co&chapter=009&verse=027

Speaking of testing metals. 1 Corthin. 3:15 speaks of the same and refers to rewards.

Regardless, Beloved Dicip. post said it best, I'm leaving it at that.