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mikebr
Dec 31st 2008, 11:35 PM
Wiil there ever be a time when God won't need to be Holy and Just?

timmyb
Dec 31st 2008, 11:41 PM
Wiil there ever be a time when God won't need to be Holy and Just?

in my opinion absolutely not... God is always holy and just and he never suspends those attributes even when he may be acting in a way that in our own human understanding seems to contradict it... His mercy is his justice, his justice is his holiness... he is eternal he knows no beginning and no end... he will never stop being anything other than what he is... he is unchanging

markdrums
Dec 31st 2008, 11:43 PM
Wiil there ever be a time when God won't need to be Holy and Just?


Hmmmmm.... interesting question.

Will there be a time when God won't NEED to be Holy & just?
My current feelings are, "No. There WON'T be a time when he doesn't need to be...." Only because, God's nature IS Holy & just. Anything else would be against, or the opposite of his nature.

That's my thought anyway.
;)

mikebr
Dec 31st 2008, 11:53 PM
Maybe a better question would be would there every be a time when God won't display his holiness and justice.

timmyb
Dec 31st 2008, 11:53 PM
Hmmmmm.... interesting question.

Will there be a time when God won't NEED to be Holy & just?
My current feelings are, "No. There WON'T be a time when he doesn't need to be...." Only because, God's nature IS Holy & just. Anything else would be against, or the opposite of his nature.

That's my thought anyway.
;)

i totally agree

everything he does is an outflow of who he is... and he is truly unsearchable

timmyb
Dec 31st 2008, 11:56 PM
Maybe a better question would be would there every be a time when God won't display his holiness and justice.

i seriously doubt it.. everything he does is an outflow of who he is... we only know his holiness because he's displayed his holiness in a way that can relate to us... otherwise holiness would just be a lifeless term... We only know justice in the context of what God has related to us now... otherwise it would just be a word to us... and I believe we will be seeing new revelation of his holiness and justice for all eternity... the angels have been around his throne crying out Holy Holy Holy forever... and I don't think they or we will stop saying that...

mikebr
Jan 1st 2009, 12:16 AM
Thanks for your responses. Now What is the purpose of God's holiness and justice?

tt1106
Jan 1st 2009, 12:16 AM
No, God doesn't choose to be just and holy. God is just and Holy. he cannot choose to be anything other than what he is. Imagine if God were water.
he might be steam, ice or water, but his nature is still water.
He can change his form and he may change how he interacts with a container for example, but in the end, he cannot be chocolate pudding.
(Although he might choose the form, he would still BE water.)
God can choose to love, but he cannot choose to love and be unjust or unholy.

mikebr
Jan 1st 2009, 12:20 AM
No, God doesn't choose to be just and holy. God is just and Holy. he cannot choose to be anything other than what he is. Imagine if God were water.
he might be steam, ice or water, but his nature is still water.
He can change his form and he may change how he interacts with a container for example, but in the end, he cannot be chocolate pudding.
(Although he might choose the form, he would still BE water.)
God can choose to love, but he cannot choose to love and be unjust or unholy.

If God can choose not to love why can't He choose to be unjust or unholy? Aren't all three attributes of God?
The Bible says that God is Love.

tt1106
Jan 1st 2009, 12:55 AM
You are right. I phrased that incorrectly. I shoudn't have put it that way. When I think of God, I think of him as this perfectly white light. The purest white light that anybody could ever conceive of. That light is his holiness. Our souls are darkness. In order for us to be allowed in the same room with God, we have to be transformed from darkness to light. Jesus does that for us, when we are obedient to him. God doesn't need to be holy and just he is Holy and Just. Therefore we need a booster shot because if we entered the same room as God with our evilness we would be obliterated.

markdrums
Jan 1st 2009, 12:58 AM
If God can choose not to love why can't He choose to be unjust or unholy? Aren't all three attributes of God?
The Bible says that God is Love.


I don't think God chooses not to love either....

In fact, he loves us SOOOO much, that he was willing to let US choose whether or not we want to have a relationship with him. And then actualize our choices for eternity, instead of dragging someone against their will, into his presence.

I also think your original question took a turn. ;)

It went from "..... Need to be" to "Displaying Holiness & Justness"... to "actually BEING Unholy or Unjust".

I know it's hard for US to understand how God IS, WAS, and ALWAYS WILL BE exactly the same, no matter what. Especially since we (And yes, I mean ME TOO) can go from love, to hatred, to vengance, to forgiveness, to "take back forgiveness, because I changed my mind", to "OK, I forgive you again."... etc.....
LOL!

But no. I God will not go against his own nature.
:)

Know what I mean?

mikebr
Jan 1st 2009, 01:54 AM
The problem is that we expect God not to love. We imagine that His love is conditional yet we don't believe that His holiness and justice are condtional. In other words some would argue that God hates the unregenerate; that His love is conditional yet no one would say that His holiness is conditional yet love in scripture seems to be His greatest attribute.

markdrums
Jan 1st 2009, 02:18 AM
The problem is that we expect God not to love. We imagine that His love is conditional yet we don't believe that His holiness and justice are condtional. In other words some would argue that God hates the unregenerate; that His love is conditional yet no one would say that His holiness is conditional yet love in scripture seems to be His greatest attribute.


The first part of your post sums it all up.
The "problem" is US; Along with what we imagine & believe/don't believe.

Someday we'll better understand our ONE TRUE GOD. But currently, we're extremely limited in what we can comprehend about him, and his nature.

The good news? We'll have an ETERNITY to learn about him & from him; getting to know him more fully, and exploring the infinite ends of the new Heavens & Earth.

But for now, we still wonder "How can he be completely unchangeable???? How can he be ABSOLUTE in fairness & judgment??? How can he EQUALLY love all of us, even though we fall short on a daily basis???"

But remember, one day we'll have a chance to ask him!
:)

mikebr
Jan 1st 2009, 02:26 AM
The first part of your post sums it all up.
The "problem" is US; Along with what we imagine & believe/don't believe.

Someday we'll better understand our ONE TRUE GOD. But currently, we're extremely limited in what we can comprehend about him, and his nature.

The good news? We'll have an ETERNITY to learn about him & from him; getting to know him more fully, and exploring the infinite ends of the new Heavens & Earth.

But for now, we still wonder "How can he be completely unchangeable???? How can he be ABSOLUTE in fairness & judgment??? How can he EQUALLY love all of us, even though we fall short on a daily basis???"

But remember, one day we'll have a chance to ask him!
:)


I totally agree with you post. The problem is that we are telling people on a weekly basis that God's love is conditional based on everything from church attendance to baptism. I asked my Sunday school class one time if they would continue to come to church if they knew it wouldn't change the way God felt about them. They were dumbfounded.

mikebr
Jan 1st 2009, 02:42 AM
I don't think God chooses not to love either....

In fact, he loves us SOOOO much, that he was willing to let US choose whether or not we want to have a relationship with him. And then actualize our choices for eternity, instead of dragging someone against their will, into his presence.

I also think your original question took a turn. ;)

It went from "..... Need to be" to "Displaying Holiness & Justness"... to "actually BEING Unholy or Unjust".

I know it's hard for US to understand how God IS, WAS, and ALWAYS WILL BE exactly the same, no matter what. Especially since we (And yes, I mean ME TOO) can go from love, to hatred, to vengance, to forgiveness, to "take back forgiveness, because I changed my mind", to "OK, I forgive you again."... etc.....
LOL!

But no. I God will not go against his own nature.
:)

Know what I mean?

Yes these posts have a way making a life of their own. But yes my question was meant to look at a time when God will be all in all, in eternity future. When there's no more faith, hope will no longer be an issue, when only love will remain will God need to exhibit His holiness and justice. Will wrath be an issue? Will we need laws?

markdrums
Jan 1st 2009, 03:45 AM
Yes these posts have a way making a life of their own. But yes my question was meant to look at a time when God will be all in all, in eternity future. When there's no more faith, hope will no longer be an issue, when only love will remain will God need to exhibit His holiness and justice. Will wrath be an issue? Will we need laws?

Ahh yes... Eternity.
But we'll still be inferior to our creator. So, our FAITH & HOPE will always be there. It will be magnified by an infinite number of levels, but our Father will STILL be more & more magnificent to us the more we get to know him.

We'll be in an eternally sin free / uncursed universe. The choices we made while "alive" will be actualized for ever & ever. We won't be robots, but we will NEVER sin because of our desire to be FREE OF SIN. We'll be "Like Christ" in the sense of being pure & holy & righteous.

Wrath will never be an issue at that point.

Laws? I think so... but we already have God's laws written in our hearts, so being obedient & faithful is not going to be a problem.

All in all.... He will ALWAYS exhibit his justice, justness, holiness, love, righteousness, perfection.... and EVERY SINGLE attribuite of his nature.

timmyb
Jan 1st 2009, 09:49 PM
Thanks for your responses. Now What is the purpose of God's holiness and justice?

Now I can only respond to that in a way that relates to me... I do not know why God is holy or just other than that it shows to me how unholy and unjust I am... When God was showing his justice to the nation of Israel it was shown in two ways: The Law which showed man how unholy and unjust they are, and rebuking them for social injustice which had the same result... I do not think an answer that would satisfy the depth of a question such as that exists in the mouths of mere men... I only know God and his attributes in the ways that he has revealed them to me.

His ways are unknowable and unsearchable

tt1106
Jan 1st 2009, 10:36 PM
I understand that we are created in the likeness of God, but I still think of God as something other than a person making decisions to be one thing or another.
I think of God as a Supernatural being. I think he embodies holiness and justice. I don't think he chooses those characteristics, I believe he is those characteristics. It is only because we need a description that those words are used.
Imagine if God were actually this huge pool of white paint (ridiculous, I know)
and we were all walking glasses of black dye. even one of us, if we mixed would taint the pool. Imagine if the white paint destroyed the black dye at the moment that the two mixed. That would have to happen or the black dye would taint the white paint.
The only way the black dye could mix with the white paint would be for something to happen to it to make it white paint.

I don't attribute choice to God's nature. If he chooses to be just he could choose to be unjust, which he cannot.

His justice and righteousness don't have a purpose any more than integrity and honesty have one.

mikebr
Jan 1st 2009, 10:39 PM
Now I can only respond to that in a way that relates to me... I do not know why God is holy or just other than that it shows to me how unholy and unjust I am... When God was showing his justice to the nation of Israel it was shown in two ways: The Law which showed man how unholy and unjust they are, and rebuking them for social injustice which had the same result... I do not think an answer that would satisfy the depth of a question such as that exists in the mouths of mere men... I only know God and his attributes in the ways that he has revealed them to me.

His ways are unknowable and unsearchable

But Ephesians says that we are holy, righteous, and just(ified). It has to be our position and not our accomplishments that make us holy. If holiness comes by accomplishing something how did God get Holy. He simply is and because I am in His Son so am I.

How has God revealed His holiness to you, or his justice. He seems to defy justice if we all deserve Hell and we won't all get it.

How has He revealed his Love; His wrath?

mikebr
Jan 1st 2009, 10:40 PM
I understand that we are created in the likeness of God, but I still think of God as something other than a person making decisions to be one thing or another.
I think of God as a Supernatural being. I think he embodies holiness and justice. I don't think he chooses those characteristics, I believe he is those characteristics. It is only because we need a description that those words are used.
Imagine if God were actually this huge pool of white paint (ridiculous, I know)
and we were all walking glasses of black dye. even one of us, if we mixed would taint the pool. Imagine if the white paint destroyed the black dye at the moment that the two mixed. That would have to happen or the black dye would taint the white paint.
The only way the black dye could mix with the white paint would be for something to happen to it to make it white paint.

I don't attribute choice to God's nature. If he chooses to be just he could choose to be unjust, which he cannot.

His justice and righteousness don't have a purpose any more than integrity and honesty have one.


Great thoughts! I'll need to chew on them a while. Thanks.

timmyb
Jan 1st 2009, 11:39 PM
But Ephesians says that we are holy, righteous, and just(ified). It has to be our position and not our accomplishments that make us holy. If holiness comes by accomplishing something how did God get Holy. He simply is and because I am in His Son so am I.

How has God revealed His holiness to you, or his justice. He seems to defy justice if we all deserve Hell and we won't all get it.

How has He revealed his Love; His wrath?

You're exactly right in the fact that it's our position with God that makes us holy and set apart.

God didn't earn anything, he is and he always will be. He has no beginning and no end, he has always been what he is. He is incapable of learning, he is incapable of advancing his character or his attributes in that he has always been holy and just and righteous.

How has God revealed his holiness to me? Well my testimony is that I have always condemned myself regarding what I have done and I would only feel confident in my standing before God if I had a good day. God revealed to me his wisdom and his holiness in showing me that his thoughts toward me are not my thoughts. His ways are so high above my ways. His holiness is defined to me at how different he is from man and his ways.

How is it not justice that the blood of Jesus would save a sinner in the eyes of God? How is it not justice that God would have mercy on his fallen creation? Everything God does is out of his mercy and his wrath. He never suspends one attribute of himself to exercise another. His wrath is out of his love and mercy and justice. Is his love not revealed in you when he not only gives his son to die for you when scarcely will a man die for a righteous man but when we were yet sinners Christ who is perfect chose not only death but humiliation by dying on a cross like a criminal for me? Is his love not revealed to you by the fact that his very person dwells within your frame? Is that not justice? You were guilty before God, destined for hell but he paid the price for you. Accepting the blood of Jesus is agreeing with the Justice of God, accepting his thoughts toward you instead of your own is agreeing with his holiness. Living your life upright before him is agreeing with his righteousness...

Justice is perfected in the eyes of God to have mercy on us and save us... To say he defies justice by saving us is like saying that the blood of Jesus wasn't enough to satisfy his wrath and save humanity.

mikebr
Jan 1st 2009, 11:59 PM
You're exactly right in the fact that it's our position with God that makes us holy and set apart.

God didn't earn anything, he is and he always will be. He has no beginning and no end, he has always been what he is. He is incapable of learning, he is incapable of advancing his character or his attributes in that he has always been holy and just and righteous.

How has God revealed his holiness to me? Well my testimony is that I have always condemned myself regarding what I have done and I would only feel confident in my standing before God if I had a good day. God revealed to me his wisdom and his holiness in showing me that his thoughts toward me are not my thoughts. His ways are so high above my ways. His holiness is defined to me at how different he is from man and his ways.

How is it not justice that the blood of Jesus would save a sinner in the eyes of God? How is it not justice that God would have mercy on his fallen creation? Everything God does is out of his mercy and his wrath. He never suspends one attribute of himself to exercise another. His wrath is out of his love and mercy and justice. Is his love not revealed in you when he not only gives his son to die for you when scarcely will a man die for a righteous man but when we were yet sinners Christ who is perfect chose not only death but humiliation by dying on a cross like a criminal for me? Is his love not revealed to you by the fact that his very person dwells within your frame? Is that not justice? You were guilty before God, destined for hell but he paid the price for you. Accepting the blood of Jesus is agreeing with the Justice of God, accepting his thoughts toward you instead of your own is agreeing with his holiness. Living your life upright before him is agreeing with his righteousness...

Justice is perfected in the eyes of God to have mercy on us and save us... To say he defies justice by saving us is like saying that the blood of Jesus wasn't enough to satisfy his wrath and save humanity.

Very well said and I agree. Thanks.

timmyb
Jan 2nd 2009, 12:19 AM
Very well said and I agree. Thanks.

no problem... Blessings!

tt1106
Jan 2nd 2009, 01:19 PM
This is a great conversation. I really appreciate the other insights. Have a blessed day.


-Todd