PDA

View Full Version : who is able to make war with him?



Partaker of Christ
Jan 1st 2009, 01:07 AM
Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Would this question "who is able to make war with him?" cause us to believe that the USA, will not be 'the' super power?

My thoughts are; I do not believe that the USA is Babylon, but I do think it will fall (and soon), as the super power that polices the world today. I suspect that a big part of its downfall will be economically manipulated.

This would leave a vacuum to be filled, possibly by the beast who will at first appear to be flattering and peaceful.
Could it be that: Israel would become vulnerable, and may take pre-empted defensive action.

Speculation I know, but for the beast to rise in power, the USA stands in the way.

markedward
Jan 1st 2009, 01:31 AM
Who said the USA is even in the Bible?

markdrums
Jan 1st 2009, 01:50 AM
Who said the USA is even in the Bible?

You beat me to the question! (I'll have to call you "Quick Draw" now! LOL!!)

But, concerning the O.P. - by Partaker Of Christ:
Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Would this question "who is able to make war with him?" cause us to believe that the USA, will not be 'the' super power?

My thoughts are; I do not believe that the USA is Babylon, but I do think it will fall (and soon), as the super power that polices the world today. I suspect that a big part of its downfall will be economically manipulated.

This would leave a vacuum to be filled, possibly by the beast who will at first appear to be flattering and peaceful.
Could it be that: Israel would become vulnerable, and may take pre-empted defensive action.

Speculation I know, but for the beast to rise in power, the USA stands in the way.


I was also wondering where the glue for this "End Times" scenario really comes from? (In the sense of it being a yet future event, with a man who "pretends to be CHRIST HIMSELF"... and establishes a seven year peace treaty, only to break it mid-way through.)

By the way- I appreciate the fact that you mentioned you were speculating! That was an honest, genuine statement, & I REALLY respect that. ;)

So, that in mind, I hope you understand that my question & skepticism is aimed at the "VIEWPOINT", and not you personally.

:hug:

Partaker of Christ
Jan 1st 2009, 02:19 AM
Who said the USA is even in the Bible?

:hmm: I don't know. Can you give me a clue? :help:

markedward
Jan 1st 2009, 02:37 AM
Well, just to give you a direction to research, it's almost universally agreed amongst secular Biblical scholars that the Roman Empire is the beast described in the Revelation, and a very large number of Christians believe the same.

The difference is the secular scholars agree that it is the first-century Roman Empire being described, while Christians generally agree that the Roman Empire being viewed is a "revived" Empire, or that the real Roman Empire never even collapsed, but that it existed throughout all of AD history in some form or another.

In my opinion...

1. The perpetually existent Roman Empire idea isn't credible, because the belief requires that the Roman Empire to have existed ever since its western-half collapsed under attack and the eastern-half dissolved; it's hardly an "empire" if there is no emperor and no power. This type of view practically requires resulting in a "revived" Roman Empire...

2. The "revived" Roman Empire idea isn't credible, because the belief essentially seeks an exact copy of the first-century Roman Empire... in which case, why not just believe that the Revelation was speaking of the first-century Roman Empire?

You can probably see where I go with these conclusions;that the Revelation was prophesying about the first-century Roman Empire, which would make the appearance of the USA pretty much impossible. But I encourage you to research it for yourself and come to conclusions that are sound in your mind. [And, obviously, I'm available as a resource if you decide as much.]

Partaker of Christ
Jan 1st 2009, 02:45 AM
Well, just to give you a direction to research, it's almost universally agreed amongst secular Biblical scholars that the Roman Empire is the beast described in the Revelation, and a very large number of Christians believe the same.

The difference is the secular scholars agree that it is the first-century Roman Empire being described, while Christians generally agree that the Roman Empire being viewed is a "revived" Empire, or that the real Roman Empire never even collapsed, but that it existed throughout all of AD history in some form or another.

In my opinion...

1. The perpetually existent Roman Empire idea isn't credible, because the belief requires that the Roman Empire to have existed ever since its western-half collapsed under attack and the eastern-half dissolved; it's hardly an "empire" if there is no emperor and no power. This type of view practically requires resulting in a "revived" Roman Empire...

2. The "revived" Roman Empire idea isn't credible, because the belief essentially seeks an exact copy of the first-century Roman Empire... in which case, why not just believe that the Revelation was speaking of the first-century Roman Empire?

You can probably see where I go with these conclusions;that the Revelation was prophesying about the first-century Roman Empire, which would make the appearance of the USA pretty much impossible. But I encourage you to research it for yourself and come to conclusions that are sound in your mind. [And, obviously, I'm available as a resource if you decide as much.]

Thanks Mark!
but you have not answered: "Who said the USA is even in the Bible?"

markedward
Jan 1st 2009, 03:01 AM
To be honest, the only prophecy teacher that I know of who teaches that the USA is in Biblical prophecy is Ronald Weinland, but he has proven himself to be a false prophet dozens of times, so he's not even worth listening to.

dan
Jan 1st 2009, 04:58 AM
Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Would this question "who is able to make war with him?" cause us to believe that the USA, will not be 'the' super power?

The reason that you cannot make war with it is because the beast is not a country. It is a sociological event. The world will try one world government, only to see it fail miserably.


My thoughts are; I do not believe that the USA is Babylon, but I do think it will fall (and soon), as the super power that polices the world today. I suspect that a big part of its downfall will be economically manipulated.

I don't think it will fall ever. Though it may be weakened. Babylon is New York City, and the beast is the UN and someday the whole world will be under them.
Remember that our own congressional members were complicit in the economic downfall.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs


This would leave a vacuum to be filled, possibly by the beast who will at first appear to be flattering and peaceful.
Could it be that: Israel would become vulnerable, and may take pre-empted defensive action.

The UN will end the ability of the individual country to keep a military. What is peaceful about removing the only things that keep the peace in the world?
No, Israel has become, at least politically, a part of the beast already, by outlawing the death penalty.


Speculation I know, but for the beast to rise in power, the USA stands in the way.

True. But only because we have private firearms and a death penalty.

markdrums
Jan 1st 2009, 05:39 AM
The reason that you cannot make war with it is because the beast is not a country. It is a sociological event. The world will try one world government, only to see it fail miserably.



I don't think it will fall ever. Though it may be weakened. Babylon is New York City, and the beast is the UN and someday the whole world will be under them.
Remember that our own congressional members were complicit in the economic downfall.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs



The UN will end the ability of the individual country to keep a military. What is peaceful about removing the only things that keep the peace in the world?
No, Israel has become, at least politically, a part of the beast already, by outlawing the death penalty.



True. But only because we have private firearms and a death penalty.


Many of my friends & family members also share this (or similar) view. But I don't see where it fits with scripture.

To me, it seems to be based on misinterpretation & unnecessary modernization of the text, placing most of the prophecies of Revelation in the 21st century.
In order to make it work in a futuristic sense, a person has to ignore the timeframe that John was implying when he used words such as "Soon" and "Near" and "At Hand".

Can I ask you what it is that prompts you to read it this way?
I'm always interested in the reasons why we all believe what we believe.
:)

Jude
Jan 1st 2009, 06:28 AM
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/123064328068532.gif



Would you make war with the Vatican and those inside, would you make war with Rome or the Pope. If you were to ask me I would have to say no. We are living in the last days, this is it for all and forever, a darkness is forming to cloud mens minds, and our Lord and Savior will be coming, its just around the corner. Maybe not this Papist
may be the next, scripture teaches he will sit in the Jewish temple and the world won't have a clue because that
darkness will cloud their minds. Have a look at this and see what you think, I came by it not that long ago. The King Is Coming; Hallelujah!!

Jude

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcPq4CDr_r8&feature=related

dan
Jan 1st 2009, 08:45 AM
Many of my friends & family members also share this (or similar) view. But I don't see where it fits with scripture.

To me, it seems to be based on misinterpretation & unnecessary modernization of the text, placing most of the prophecies of Revelation in the 21st century.
In order to make it work in a futuristic sense, a person has to ignore the timeframe that John was implying when he used words such as "Soon" and "Near" and "At Hand".

Can I ask you what it is that prompts you to read it this way?
I'm always interested in the reasons why we all believe what we believe.
:)

...I have wished it were easier to see.

The first indication was Jeremiah:

JER 6:23 They shall lay hold on bow and spear; they are cruel, and have no mercy; their voice roareth like the sea; and they ride upon horses, set in array as men for war against thee, O daughter of Zion.

Then there was Daniel:

DAN 11:22 And the arms of the fighter shall be overcome before his face, and shall be broken; yea also the prince of the covenant. (Douay)

Arms and the Prince in the same sentence? Amazing!

Isaiah helped:

IS 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

IS 57:1 The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.

And Amos:

AMOS 9:10 All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us.

And Zecharia:

ZECH 13:3 And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the LORD: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.
ZECH 13:4 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive:
ZECH 13:5 But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.
ZECH 13:6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
ZECH 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
ZECH 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

Only one third of believers left in the end? Because they did not know the word of God?

MT 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

MT 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

MT 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
MT 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

LK 3:14 And soldiers also asked him, saying, And we, what must we do? And he said unto them, Extort from no man by violence, neither accuse `any one' wrongfully; and be content with your wages.(The Bible In Basic English)

LK 11:21 When a strong man armed keepeth his court, those things are in peace which he possesseth.

LK 19:42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things [which belong] unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.

LK 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take [it], and likewise [his] scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

ACTS 13:40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;
ACTS 13:41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.

ROM 3:8 Let us not, "do evil so that good may come", a statement which we are falsely said by some to have made, because such behaviour will have its right punishment. (Bible In Basic English)

ROM 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

But the straw that broke the camel's back was Rev. 13:

REV 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
REV 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
REV 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
REV 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
REV 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
REV 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
REV 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
REV 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

REV 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

REV 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

These blew me away because in all of history there has never been a person that had survived a weapon induced head wound that was famous and had spoken against God's Word. Until a certain US President had a certain PAC figurehead over to rededicate the White House Press Room in the figureheads name.

Also, I discovered that it was nearly impossible to survive a deadly head wound before WWI. The technology just wasn't available.

ross3421
Jan 2nd 2009, 12:08 AM
Would this question "who is able to make war with him?" cause us to believe that the USA, will not be 'the' super power?



We see Babylon in the midst of a wilderness.

The USA and all other countries are not even around at the time of Babylon rising. Note the inhabinants believe this king of this city is God.

WHO COULD MAKE WAR WITH HIM?

Prophecy Countdown
Jan 2nd 2009, 02:22 AM
Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Would this question "who is able to make war with him?" cause us to believe that the USA, will not be 'the' super power?

My thoughts are; I do not believe that the USA is Babylon, but I do think it will fall (and soon), as the super power that polices the world today. I suspect that a big part of its downfall will be economically manipulated.

This would leave a vacuum to be filled, possibly by the beast who will at first appear to be flattering and peaceful.
Could it be that: Israel would become vulnerable, and may take pre-empted defensive action.

Speculation I know, but for the beast to rise in power, the USA stands in the way.

The answer is found in Daniel 7: 3 where the lion/GB loses his Eagle’s wings the USA alliance partner.
They will split up after attacking the Higher horn that comes up last which is Iran in Daniel 8: 3 – 8.

Dan 8: Verses 17 and 19 tells us the time of these events and verse 20 states the word ‘Grecia’ which is from the word YAVAN 3120 whose descendens represent the Western Gentile nations see Geneses 10: 4, 5.
Verse 21 mentions the first king/leader and we know who the first king/leader of the Western Gentile nations is.

In Daniel 7: 3 – 7. The lion stands alone after losing it Alliance partner the USA and now the power vacuum allows Russia/bear to rise along with the leopard and the fourth beast most terrible to fill it until the second advent in Daniel 7: 27.
Sorry it was so short but I need some rest.
PC:hug:

Gods Child
Jan 2nd 2009, 03:07 AM
Who said the USA is even in the Bible?

Daniel 7 tells us of the beast that will be on earth at the time of the Antichrist (little horn). Daniel tells us that these beasts are Nations/kings/Kingdoms (Dan 7:17-18) that will be on the earth just prior to Jesus return.

Daniel says these beasts (kingdoms) are; Lion with Eagles wings –Bear-Leopard. It is interesting to note that these animal symbols are linked to Nations today.;

The national animal symbols are;
Lion=England
Eagle = USA
Bear= Russia
Leopard = Germany.

What is interesting is that in Daniel, just prior to the little horn (antichrist) these beasts are shown as separate, but when we get to Revelation 13 these beasts are shown as joined together (as in a One world Government). Within Revelation 13 the Eagles wings are no longer depicted within the prophecy.
If the Eagles wings represent the USA, then why are they no longer depicted. The eagles wings were depicted in Daniel 7, but not depicted in the One World Government of Rev 13…WHY? Will the USA no longer be a supper power? Will the USA not be a part of the One World Government. We know that the beast find opposition…Will the USA be that opposition?

Could it be that the USA helps Israel and are the Eagle wings of Rev 12?
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Time will tell, but between Daniel 7 and Rev 13 is the answer of the Nations (Kingdoms) of the end time.

danield
Jan 2nd 2009, 03:56 AM
I am not a prophesy teacher, but I do think the USA is the harlot that rides the beast. I think the beast emerges out of the Middle East, and oil is the financial component that enriches the harlot. I also think that the seven mountain ranges that lay with in our boarder are the seven hills, and there will be a series of seven presidents who are the seven kings prior to the rise of the AC. I do think the AC will emerge outside the USA and he will hate the harlot along with his ten kings and plunder the harlot just as the Bible says. I feel that the USA was a wilderness back in John’s day which is just one of many signs that point to our existence in the Bible.
I think I better explain in detail because I have said a lot.

First of all the seven hills are a reference to seven mountain ranges.
1. The Rocky Mountains
2. The Appalachian Mountains
3. The Sierra Nevada
4. The Cascades
5. The Brooks Range
6. The Alaska Range
7. The Coast Range

The Ozark’s can not be considered as a mountain range especially when looking at the scale of the other mountain ranges. They are at best foothills with its tallest peak at about 2500 feet. The region is actually a high and deeply dissected plateau. They actually form what is known as the U.S. interior highlands.

The Seven kings in revelation 17:10 are a series of seven presidents IMO. The reason it is a series of seven presidents is because at some point our country changes its theme of governing. The USA was founded on jewdeo Christian values, but over time it has or will morphed into a government that does not reflect the true heart of its founders. For instance, look at Governor Blagojevich who sold a Senate seat to the highest bidder. I know this is a very minor incident in relation to a biblical text but never the less it shows how low our leadership in government has become, and he is the only one who got caught. Think of the countless lobbyists who constantly manipulate our system to enrich their organization. Our Government will in the not so near distant future legalize gay marriage. When our founders established the freedom of religion with in our constitution, their whole mindset was focused on how Europe was torn apart between the catholic and protestant movement, and they did not want that division to spread here. They tolerated other religions, but 99% of the people were either a catholic or a protestant. People went to church all day on Sundays. When they celebrated Thanksgiving, they were giving thanks to our God not every other god they dream up today. I think everyone can see the migration from Christian values with in our country. Our country now fights harder for the rights of atheistic values than it does for God. And I think all those other religions are from satan.

There will be a delineation mark in our government which separates those seven presidents from all the rest. I could only guess right now, but I feel certain that will we understand it when God’s plan is revealed to all. I want to take a minute to let everyone here know that I do love the great things that this country has done for all humanity. I am not out to bash the good ole’ USA at all, in fact our history has been filled with some extraordinary things we have done to improve the well being of all men. And I really hope that people do understand that I am not putting the USA on trial here for her “sins in the past” like Reverend Wright. In fact I can fill page after page of great things that I am so pleased with within the USA. And this is the reason I think the seven kings are mention in the bible. It is under the seven kings’ reign that this country turns away from God and towards satan.

I just want to mention a few other passages from Rev 17 that fits our involvement in the end times.

First of all The mystery Woman is referred to as a city. Rev 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. Ronald Reagan referred to The USA as being the shining city on the hill in one of his famous speeches. And our way of government is modeled after the old city states of Greece. What better way to tag a future government as a city from John’s knowledge of history. Democracy was not around 2000 years ago, and the only way they identified with it was from the Greek city states.

NLT Revelation 17:1 ¶ One of the seven angels who had poured out the seven bowls came over and spoke to me. "Come with me," he said, "and I will show you the judgment that is going to come on the great prostitute, who rules over many waters.

There is no question that the USA sits on many waters. The Atlantic, the Pacific, The Caribbean/Gulf of Mexico, The Bering Sea, The Beaufort Sea, The Gulf of Alaska, The Great Lakes, and not to mention the waters that touch our territory in the Pacific Ie Guam, Palau and the Mariannes Islands.

Rev 17:6 I could see that she was drunk—drunk with the blood of God’s holy people who were witnesses for Jesus. I stared at her in complete amazement.

I can’t think of any other country that witnesses more for Christ than the USA. I know there are other countries that witness for Christ but the USA really puts forth a big effort to spread the word through local congregation, TV, and outreach ministries. This country was built on Jewdeo-Christian values. I have mixed emotions about this passage and it’s meaning, but never the less we do have a huge following for Christ here in the USA.

I just want to mention a couple of thought for those who follow the popular teaching that the CC is the harlot. The Catholic Church and the Protestants have been fighting for generations. It is only natural to villainies your opponent and what better way of doing it in Religion than to call the other Babylon. I have heard all the arguments naming them the harlot and they just all stack up short. I am a Protestant, but I can see the conflict between the sects. Don’t get me wrong, I think the Catholics are off center on their teaching but they can not fall in the category of Babylon. The Pope is just not that powerful. The Catholic Church does not control any Government. How many laws do you think the Pope can pass here in the USA? The answer is for certain none! People give their respect to the Pope, but they give their power to the Governments of the world. Can anyone imagine the Pope starting World War III? Now can anyone imagine the governments of the world starting World War III? The Pope constantly calls for peace in the world even today…. I know this is a whole other debate, but I just had to mention it. It is very unpopular to call the USA as the harlot mainly because there is a ton of money in the USA, and ministries want to collect money so they can flourish. If they call the CC the Harlot it will only be fueled by some in the protestant movement that can see all the sins of the CC. So there is a huge niche for that campaign. What I have said is very unpopular, and I know I will be looked down on by many. But when I compare a society that is trying to justifies Gay marriage, promotes many satanic religions over Christian views, a spiraling deterioration of values for many against a group that promotes Christian ideology, I have got to disbelieve those prophesy teachers no matter how they manipulate scripture.

I just want to close by saying that I am not perfect in my walk with the lord. I do my best to keep away from sin, and I am certain that many of you do a better job of obeying the Lord’s commands. I am saying this because I want everyone to know that I am not worthy to be considered a great leader for Christ so they can weigh what I have said appropriately.

God Bless and have a happy New Year!

RevLogos
Jan 2nd 2009, 04:52 AM
I’ll toss out some thoughts I’ve had on this recently.

If the end-times are reasonably soon – soon enough that the current political dynamics are still in place, then I see two great enemies of Christ.

First, we see those who very specifically have as their enemy Christians and Jews. Those who wish to crush the “People of the Book” by force of arms and terror. This is of course the Muslim world.

The second enemy is composed of those not so much interested in destroying Christ as they are in replacing Christ, or changing Christ into something else, many in the guise of some form of Christianity. I speak of, within Christianity, such things as the prosperity Gospel, Name it and Claim it, Westboro, the Emergent church, the Jesus Seminar, Christian anti-Semitism which tears at the roots of the tree we’ve been grafted in to, and many others. All of these want to change Jesus into another person. I can add to this the new age spiritualism such as that Oprah espouses. These also see Christ as someone different, a wise man perhaps, a guru, but worship materialism or humanism.

So I beg to ask the question: which is worse? Those who wish to destroy Christ with arms and terror? Or those who wish to replace Christ with false teachings that turn us away from the One True God?

I believe this second group is what Paul referred to when he spoke of the great apostasy that must precede the man of lawlessness. Much of 2nd Peter, also very apocalyptic, is dedicated to the rise of these false teachings.

So in Rev 13:4 it asks “Who can make war against him?” The war need not be a war of guns and bombs, but an internal war of Christianity turned against itself. The great apostasy. Who indeed? And How? We cannot use force of arms against this enemy. It is a societal war being waged even now in the West.

Rev 18 speaks of the fall of Babylon. But most of the verses give us a very detailed description of what Babylon represents. Make a list: great worldwide economic power, rich and opulent, sexual immorality, she exalts herself – arrogant and prideful, powerful, where people live in luxury, great splendor, great art and industry, a place the world is dependent on. What does this sound like?

It is the place, or all of the places, where this apostasy rises from. And it will be gone in an hour.

Prophecy Countdown
Jan 2nd 2009, 07:18 AM
I am not a prophesy teacher, but I do think the USA is the harlot that rides the beast. I think the beast emerges out of the Middle East, and oil is the financial component that enriches the harlot. I also think that the seven mountain ranges that lay with in our boarder are the seven hills, and there will be a series of seven presidents who are the seven kings prior to the rise of the AC. I do think the AC will emerge outside the USA and he will hate the harlot along with his ten kings and plunder the harlot just as the Bible says. I feel that the USA was a wilderness back in John’s day which is just one of many signs that point to our existence in the Bible.
I think I better explain in detail because I have said a lot.

First of all the seven hills are a reference to seven mountain ranges.
1. The Rocky Mountains
2. The Appalachian Mountains
3. The Sierra Nevada
4. The Cascades
5. The Brooks Range
6. The Alaska Range
7. The Coast Range

The Ozark’s can not be considered as a mountain range especially when looking at the scale of the other mountain ranges. They are at best foothills with its tallest peak at about 2500 feet. The region is actually a high and deeply dissected plateau. They actually form what is known as the U.S. interior highlands.

The Seven kings in revelation 17:10 are a series of seven presidents IMO. The reason it is a series of seven presidents is because at some point our country changes its theme of governing. The USA was founded on jewdeo Christian values, but over time it has or will morphed into a government that does not reflect the true heart of its founders. For instance, look at Governor Blagojevich who sold a Senate seat to the highest bidder. I know this is a very minor incident in relation to a biblical text but never the less it shows how low our leadership in government has become, and he is the only one who got caught. Think of the countless lobbyists who constantly manipulate our system to enrich their organization. Our Government will in the not so near distant future legalize gay marriage. When our founders established the freedom of religion with in our constitution, their whole mindset was focused on how Europe was torn apart between the catholic and protestant movement, and they did not want that division to spread here. They tolerated other religions, but 99% of the people were either a catholic or a protestant. People went to church all day on Sundays. When they celebrated Thanksgiving, they were giving thanks to our God not every other god they dream up today. I think everyone can see the migration from Christian values with in our country. Our country now fights harder for the rights of atheistic values than it does for God. And I think all those other religions are from satan.

There will be a delineation mark in our government which separates those seven presidents from all the rest. I could only guess right now, but I feel certain that will we understand it when God’s plan is revealed to all. I want to take a minute to let everyone here know that I do love the great things that this country has done for all humanity. I am not out to bash the good ole’ USA at all, in fact our history has been filled with some extraordinary things we have done to improve the well being of all men. And I really hope that people do understand that I am not putting the USA on trial here for her “sins in the past” like Reverend Wright. In fact I can fill page after page of great things that I am so pleased with within the USA. And this is the reason I think the seven kings are mention in the bible. It is under the seven kings’ reign that this country turns away from God and towards satan.

I just want to mention a few other passages from Rev 17 that fits our involvement in the end times.

First of all The mystery Woman is referred to as a city. Rev 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. Ronald Reagan referred to The USA as being the shining city on the hill in one of his famous speeches. And our way of government is modeled after the old city states of Greece. What better way to tag a future government as a city from John’s knowledge of history. Democracy was not around 2000 years ago, and the only way they identified with it was from the Greek city states.

NLT Revelation 17:1 ¶ One of the seven angels who had poured out the seven bowls came over and spoke to me. "Come with me," he said, "and I will show you the judgment that is going to come on the great prostitute, who rules over many waters.

There is no question that the USA sits on many waters. The Atlantic, the Pacific, The Caribbean/Gulf of Mexico, The Bering Sea, The Beaufort Sea, The Gulf of Alaska, The Great Lakes, and not to mention the waters that touch our territory in the Pacific Ie Guam, Palau and the Mariannes Islands.

Rev 17:6 I could see that she was drunk—drunk with the blood of God’s holy people who were witnesses for Jesus. I stared at her in complete amazement.

I can’t think of any other country that witnesses more for Christ than the USA. I know there are other countries that witness for Christ but the USA really puts forth a big effort to spread the word through local congregation, TV, and outreach ministries. This country was built on Jewdeo-Christian values. I have mixed emotions about this passage and it’s meaning, but never the less we do have a huge following for Christ here in the USA.

I just want to mention a couple of thought for those who follow the popular teaching that the CC is the harlot. The Catholic Church and the Protestants have been fighting for generations. It is only natural to villainies your opponent and what better way of doing it in Religion than to call the other Babylon. I have heard all the arguments naming them the harlot and they just all stack up short. I am a Protestant, but I can see the conflict between the sects. Don’t get me wrong, I think the Catholics are off center on their teaching but they can not fall in the category of Babylon. The Pope is just not that powerful. The Catholic Church does not control any Government. How many laws do you think the Pope can pass here in the USA? The answer is for certain none! People give their respect to the Pope, but they give their power to the Governments of the world. Can anyone imagine the Pope starting World War III? Now can anyone imagine the governments of the world starting World War III? The Pope constantly calls for peace in the world even today…. I know this is a whole other debate, but I just had to mention it. It is very unpopular to call the USA as the harlot mainly because there is a ton of money in the USA, and ministries want to collect money so they can flourish. If they call the CC the Harlot it will only be fueled by some in the protestant movement that can see all the sins of the CC. So there is a huge niche for that campaign. What I have said is very unpopular, and I know I will be looked down on by many. But when I compare a society that is trying to justifies Gay marriage, promotes many satanic religions over Christian views, a spiraling deterioration of values for many against a group that promotes Christian ideology, I have got to disbelieve those prophesy teachers no matter how they manipulate scripture.

I just want to close by saying that I am not perfect in my walk with the lord. I do my best to keep away from sin, and I am certain that many of you do a better job of obeying the Lord’s commands. I am saying this because I want everyone to know that I am not worthy to be considered a great leader for Christ so they can weigh what I have said appropriately.

God Bless and have a happy New Year!

Hi Danield, if I may suggest would you have time to read Ezekiel chapter 16: 1 – 63 and I think you will see that the harlot is Jerusalem.

A happy and safe new year to you to Danield.:hug:
PC

third hero
Jan 2nd 2009, 07:40 AM
Hi Danield, if I may suggest would you have time to read Ezekiel chapter 16: 1 – 63 and I think you will see that the harlot is Jerusalem.

A happy and safe new year to you to Danield.:hug:
PC


Derail alert!

I totally disagree with the idea that Jerusalem is the Whore of Babylon. The fate of babylon is complete destruction and the elimination from the earth, whereas Jerusalem's fate is not the same as Babylon.

And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast [it] into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. -Revelation 18:21

And [men] shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited. Zechariah 14:11

The Bible does not contradict itself. If Jerusalem is Babylon, then Jerusalme would have to be both destroyed and safely inhabited, both not found at all and plainly seen. Both are impossible at the exact same time. Jerusalem can not be Babylon.

DurbanDude
Jan 2nd 2009, 07:51 AM
I believe that the USA is prophesied about in Revelation:

12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

The great eagle, the USA, was a driving force behind the re-establishing of Israel in the middle east. The USA has given Israel protection despite Satan's attempts to destroy Israel.

The bible teaches the beast will control the whole earth - this means all ten regions of earth. However according to Daniel 7, three of the ten regions are under the direct control of the beast. It is Gog (from the far north of Israel) and its Arab and Eastern allies that attack the seat of the beast (Israel) at the end, so it appears the beast controls the whole world yet his greatest allies are WESTERN , his enemies, those that revolt at the end, are Northern, Arabic, and Eastern.

I would therefore guess that the USA would be one of the 3 supporting regions of the beast, but the bible says all TEN regions will ultimately give him power.

Prophecy Countdown
Jan 3rd 2009, 02:31 PM
Derail alert!

I totally disagree with the idea that Jerusalem is the Whore of Babylon. The fate of babylon is complete destruction and the elimination from the earth, whereas Jerusalem's fate is not the same as Babylon.

And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. -Revelation 18:21

And [men] shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited. Zechariah 14:11

The Bible does not contradict itself. If Jerusalem is Babylon, then Jerusalme would have to be both destroyed and safely inhabited, both not found at all and plainly seen. Both are impossible at the exact same time. Jerusalem can not be Babylon.

I strongly suggest you read the following.
Ezekiel 16: 1. Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 2. Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations,

3. And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto Jerusalem; Thy birth and thy nativity is of the land of Canaan; thy father was an Amorite, and thy mother an Hittite.

4. And as for thy nativity, in the day thou wast born thy navel was not cut, neither wast thou washed in water to supple thee; thou wast not salted at all, nor swaddled at all.

5. None eye pitied thee, to do any of these unto thee, to have compassion upon thee; but thou wast cast out in the open field, to the lothing of thy person, in the day that thou wast born.
6. And when I passed by thee, and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live; yea, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live.

7. I have caused thee to multiply as the bud of the field, and thou hast increased and waxen great, and thou art come to excellent ornaments: thy breasts are fashioned, and thine hair is grown, whereas thou wast naked and bare.

8. Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord GOD, and thou becamest mine.
9. Then washed I thee with water; yea, I throughly washed away thy blood from thee, and I anointed thee with oil. 10I clothed thee also with broidered work, and shod thee with badgers’ skin, and I girded thee about with fine linen, and I covered thee with silk. 11I decked thee also with ornaments, and I put bracelets upon thy hands, and a chain on thy neck.

12. And I put a jewel on thy forehead, and earrings in thine ears, and a beautiful crown upon thine head.

13. Thus wast thou decked with gold and silver; and thy raiment was of fine linen, and silk, and broidered work; thou didst eat fine flour, and honey, and oil: and thou wast exceeding beautiful, and thou didst prosper into a kingdom.

14. And thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty: for it was perfect through my comeliness, which I had put upon thee, saith the Lord GOD.

15. But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was.

16. And of thy garments thou didst take, and deckedst thy high places with divers colours, and playedst the harlot thereupon: the like things shall not come, neither shall it be so.

17. Thou hast also taken thy fair jewels of my gold and of my silver, which I had given thee, and madest to thyself images of men, and didst commit whoredom with them,
18. And tookest thy broidered garments, and coveredst them: and thou hast set mine oil and mine incense before them.

19. My meat also which I gave thee, fine flour, and oil, and honey, wherewith I fed thee, thou hast even set it before them for a sweet savour: and thus it was, saith the Lord GOD.

20. Moreover thou hast taken thy sons and thy daughters, whom thou hast borne unto me, and these hast thou sacrificed unto them to be devoured. Is this of thy whoredoms a small matter,

21. That thou hast slain my children, and delivered them to cause them to pass through the fire for them?

22. And in all thine abominations and thy whoredoms thou hast not remembered the days of thy youth, when thou wast naked and bare, and wast polluted in thy blood.

23. And it came to pass after all thy wickedness, (woe, woe unto thee! saith the Lord GOD;)

24. That thou hast also built unto thee an eminent place, and hast made thee an high place in every street.

25. Thou hast built thy high place at every head of the way, and hast made thy beauty to be abhorred, and hast opened thy feet to every one that passed by, and multiplied thy whoredoms.

26. Thou hast also committed fornication with the Egyptians thy neighbours, great of flesh; and hast increased thy whoredoms, to provoke me to anger.

27. Behold, therefore I have stretched out my hand over thee, and have diminished thine ordinary food, and delivered thee unto the will of them that hate thee, the daughters of the Philistines, which are ashamed of thy lewd way.

28. Thou hast played the whore also with the Assyrians, because thou wast unsatiable; yea, thou hast played the harlot with them, and yet couldest not be satisfied.
29. Thou hast moreover multiplied thy fornication in the land of Canaan unto Chaldea; and yet thou wast not satisfied herewith.

30. How weak is thine heart, saith the Lord GOD, seeing thou doest all these things, the work of an imperious whorish woman;

31. In that thou buildest thine eminent place in the head of every way, and makest thine high place in every street; and hast not been as an harlot, in that thou scornest hire;
32. But as a wife that committeth adultery, which taketh strangers instead of her husband!

33. They give gifts to all whores: but thou givest thy gifts to all thy lovers, and hirest them, that they may come unto thee on every side for thy whoredom.

34.And the contrary is in thee from other women in thy whoredoms, whereas none followeth thee to commit whoredoms: and in that thou givest a reward, and no reward is given unto thee, therefore thou art contrary.

35. Wherefore, O harlot, hear the word of the LORD:

36Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thy filthiness was poured out, and thy nakedness discovered through thy whoredoms with thy lovers, and with all the idols of thy abominations, and by the blood of thy children, which thou didst give unto them;

37. Behold, therefore I will gather all thy lovers, with whom thou hast taken pleasure, and all them that thou hast loved, with all them that thou hast hated; I will even gather them round about against thee, and will discover thy nakedness unto them, that they may see all thy nakedness.

38. And I will judge thee, as women that break wedlock and shed blood are judged; and I will give thee blood in fury and jealousy.

39And I will also give thee into their hand, and they shall throw down thine eminent place, and shall break down thy high places: they shall strip thee also of thy clothes, and shall take thy fair jewels, and leave thee naked and bare.

40. They shall also bring up a company against thee, and they shall stone thee with stones, and thrust thee through with their swords.

41. And they shall burn thine houses with fire, and execute judgments upon thee in the sight of many women: and I will cause thee to cease from playing the harlot, and thou also shalt give no hire any more.

42. So will I make my fury toward thee to rest, and my jealousy shall depart from thee, and I will be quiet, and will be no more angry.

43. Because thou hast not remembered the days of thy youth, but hast fretted me in all these things; behold, therefore I also will recompense thy way upon thine head, saith the Lord GOD: and thou shalt not commit this lewdness above all thine abominations.

44. Behold, every one that useth proverbs shall use this proverb against thee, saying, As is the mother, so is her daughter.

45. Thou art thy mother’s daughter, that lotheth her husband and her children; and thou art the sister of thy sisters, which lothed their husbands and their children: your mother was an Hittite, and your father an Amorite.

Note Abraham was an Amorite and Sarah was an Hittite.

46. And thine elder sister is Samaria, she and her daughters that dwell at thy left hand: and thy younger sister, that dwelleth at thy right hand, is Sodom and her daughters.

47. Yet hast thou not walked after their ways, nor done after their abominations: but, as if that were a very little thing, thou wast corrupted more than they in all thy ways.

48. As I live, saith the Lord GOD, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters.

49. Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.

50. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.

51. Neither hath Samaria committed half of thy sins; but thou hast multiplied thine abominations more than they, and hast justified thy sisters in all thine abominations which thou hast done.

52. Thou also, which hast judged thy sisters, bear thine own shame for thy sins that thou hast committed more abominable than they: they are more righteous than thou: yea, be thou confounded also, and bear thy shame, in that thou hast justified thy sisters.

53. When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them:

54. That thou mayest bear thine own shame, and mayest be confounded in all that thou hast done, in that thou art a comfort unto them.

55. When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.

56. For thy sister Sodom was not mentioned by thy mouth in the day of thy pride,

57. Before thy wickedness was discovered, as at the time of thy reproach of the daughters of Syria, and all that are round about her, the daughters of the Philistines, which despise thee round about.

58. Thou hast borne thy lewdness and thine abominations, saith the LORD. 59For thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even deal with thee as thou hast done, which hast despised the oath in breaking the covenant.

60. Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee in the days of thy youth, and I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant.

61. Then thou shalt remember thy ways, and be ashamed, when thou shalt receive thy sisters, thine elder and thy younger: and I will give them unto thee for daughters, but not by thy covenant.

62. And I will establish my covenant with thee; and thou shalt know that I [I]am the LORD:

63. That thou mayest remember, and be confounded, and never open thy mouth any more because of thy shame, when I am pacified toward thee for all that thou hast done, saith the Lord GOD.

danield
Jan 3rd 2009, 04:19 PM
Where are the seven hills in Jerusalem? They do not have them.


Revelation 17:9 The seven heads of the beast represent the seven hills where the woman rules.

At what point in time ever has Jerusalem been the economic powerhouse of the world? The answer is never!


Revelation 18:11-12 11 ¶ The merchants of the world will weep and mourn for her, for there is no one left to buy their goods. 12 She bought great quantities of gold, silver, jewels, and pearls; fine linen, purple, silk, and scarlet cloth; things made of fragrant thyine wood, ivory goods, and objects made of expensive wood; and bronze, iron, and marble.

Jerusalem has not exported immorality to all the leaders of the world.


Revelation 17:4 In her hand she held a gold goblet full of obscenities and the impurities of her immorality.

These are key components of Babylon and they just do not exist. Where as in America, we can see these components being fulfilled before our very eyes. Again I am not out to slander the USA, but it is what is happening in the USA that slanders itself. Look at the movies that we produce here in America that we export to the entire world. Many of our top leaders are flagrantly gay (look at Barney Frank) or supports that type of lifestyle. People beat others out of money with out thinking second thought about it. Look at the Bernard Madoff scandal. He was just one of the unlucky one that got caught. There are cheat schemes created everyday (even by so called christians), and people will take advantage of others on a moments notice without bothering their conscience in the least.



Revelation 17:6 could see that she was drunk-- drunk with the blood of God's holy people who were witnesses for Jesus. I stared at her in complete amazement.


How many people do you know claim to be a Christian emphatically, but do not actually practice any of the self control that most Christians normally achieve? How many preachers do we hear today that preach that people are saved by the blood of Christ, and get people really hyped up on this talk but never tell them that they should repent from doing evil? So they just live in sin and yet claim to be saved by the blood of Christ. Imagine how long John would stare at some of the ministries that are alive and well in our day. I do think he would be amazed at what is preached in many churches today who are drunk with the blood of Christ but never repent of doing wrong. Remember, John saw death on a daily basis under Romes rule.He was not amazed at Christian persecution.

America is an economic powerhouse. We have seven hills on which they rule. We have become an immoral country. We were a great wilderness when John wrote Revelation. We do have many people who are drunk with the blood of Christ. The leadership of our country is following more and more anti-Christian ideology. When Russia fell, I do think many felt that no one could stand up to us in battle. I defiantly do not think the USA is the beast, but IMO we sure do fit the description of being the harlot

third hero
Jan 4th 2009, 06:46 AM
I only have one objection. America can not be Babylon for one reason. Babylon is a city, not a country. The parameters must fit. Las Angeles is not the city that rules over the kings of the world. Neither is DC, New York, or Philadelphia. The city of babylon must be a city. The cultural capital of the world is Los Angeles. The City that rules over the kings of the world, although not actively, is Washingtom DC. The financial capital is NYC. It is my belief that the city that will become Babylon will have all of the important social structures in one place. Babylon wil be not only the political capital of the world, but also the financial and social capital of the world. The power of America is too spread out and to fragmented to be the one city that has it all, Babylon.

I do think that America is part of what will become the Beast nation, but I do not believe that America is the city that rules over the kings of the world.

John146
Jan 5th 2009, 10:12 PM
I only have one objection. America can not be Babylon for one reason. Babylon is a city, not a country.Babylon is also called a woman/whore. You assume that it has to be a literal city. But I'm pretty sure you don't assume it has to be a literal woman. Where is the consistency there? Seems more consistent to me to believe that it is only symbolically referred to as a woman or a city and does not have to be a literal woman nor a literal city. Just something to consider.

With that said, I don't believe it is America, either.

third hero
Jan 6th 2009, 04:36 AM
Babylon is also called a woman/whore. You assume that it has to be a literal city. But I'm pretty sure you don't assume it has to be a literal woman. Where is the consistency there? Seems more consistent to me to believe that it is only symbolically referred to as a woman or a city and does not have to be a literal woman nor a literal city. Just something to consider.

And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. Revelation 17:18

It says city, and there is no allegorical or metaphorical references in this statement. Therefore, I am inclined to believe that babylon has to be a city.


With that said, I don't believe it is America, either.

Well, it does look like we agree on something. :thumbsup:

third hero
Jan 6th 2009, 04:53 AM
I strongly suggest you read the following.
Ezekiel 16: 1. Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 2. Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations,

From the writing here, it would seem that Ezekiel was alive and ministering before the babylonians invaded, as it seems that this event happened in Jerusalem, before the Babylonian captivity.


5. None eye pitied thee, to do any of these unto thee, to have compassion upon thee; but thou wast cast out in the open field, to the lothing of thy person, in the day that thou wast born.
6. And when I passed by thee, and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live; yea, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live.

7. I have caused thee to multiply as the bud of the field, and thou hast increased and waxen great, and thou art come to excellent ornaments: thy breasts are fashioned, and thine hair is grown, whereas thou wast naked and bare.

8. Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord GOD, and thou becamest mine.
9. Then washed I thee with water; yea, I throughly washed away thy blood from thee, and I anointed thee with oil. 10I clothed thee also with broidered work, and shod thee with badgers’ skin, and I girded thee about with fine linen, and I covered thee with silk. 11I decked thee also with ornaments, and I put bracelets upon thy hands, and a chain on thy neck.

12. And I put a jewel on thy forehead, and earrings in thine ears, and a beautiful crown upon thine head.

13. Thus wast thou decked with gold and silver; and thy raiment was of fine linen, and silk, and broidered work; thou didst eat fine flour, and honey, and oil: and thou wast exceeding beautiful, and thou didst prosper into a kingdom.

14. And thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty: for it was perfect through my comeliness, which I had put upon thee, saith the Lord GOD.

As is habit with God's chastizing of the people of Israel, He reminds them of what He had done for them. This is what he did not only in Jeremiah, but Isaiah Hosea, and other books of the OT.


15. But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was.

16. And of thy garments thou didst take, and deckedst thy high places with divers colours, and playedst the harlot thereupon: the like things shall not come, neither shall it be so.

17. Thou hast also taken thy fair jewels of my gold and of my silver, which I had given thee, and madest to thyself images of men, and didst commit whoredom with them,
18. And tookest thy broidered garments, and coveredst them: and thou hast set mine oil and mine incense before them.

19. My meat also which I gave thee, fine flour, and oil, and honey, wherewith I fed thee, thou hast even set it before them for a sweet savour: and thus it was, saith the Lord GOD.

20. Moreover thou hast taken thy sons and thy daughters, whom thou hast borne unto me, and these hast thou sacrificed unto them to be devoured. Is this of thy whoredoms a small matter,

21. That thou hast slain my children, and delivered them to cause them to pass through the fire for them?

22. And in all thine abominations and thy whoredoms thou hast not remembered the days of thy youth, when thou wast naked and bare, and wast polluted in thy blood.

23. And it came to pass after all thy wickedness, (woe, woe unto thee! saith the Lord GOD;)

24. That thou hast also built unto thee an eminent place, and hast made thee an high place in every street.

25. Thou hast built thy high place at every head of the way, and hast made thy beauty to be abhorred, and hast opened thy feet to every one that passed by, and multiplied thy whoredoms.

26. Thou hast also committed fornication with the Egyptians thy neighbours, great of flesh; and hast increased thy whoredoms, to provoke me to anger.

Again, as habit of the Lord before He punished Israel, He listed to them the abominations that they had done to arouse His anger. This is nothing new, as 1 and 2 Kings are fulll of them. This is just the condensed version. This is the manner in which most prophets of that era showed the people the sins that they have done against God.


27. Behold, therefore I have stretched out my hand over thee, and have diminished thine ordinary food, and delivered thee unto the will of them that hate thee, the daughters of the Philistines, which are ashamed of thy lewd way.

This is what He had first done to Jerusalem. This was fulfilled before the Babylonians invaded.


28. Thou hast played the whore also with the Assyrians, because thou wast unsatiable; yea, thou hast played the harlot with them, and yet couldest not be satisfied.
29. Thou hast moreover multiplied thy fornication in the land of Canaan unto Chaldea; and yet thou wast not satisfied herewith.

30. How weak is thine heart, saith the Lord GOD, seeing thou doest all these things, the work of an imperious whorish woman;

31. In that thou buildest thine eminent place in the head of every way, and makest thine high place in every street; and hast not been as an harlot, in that thou scornest hire;
32. But as a wife that committeth adultery, which taketh strangers instead of her husband!

33. They give gifts to all whores: but thou givest thy gifts to all thy lovers, and hirest them, that they may come unto thee on every side for thy whoredom.

34.And the contrary is in thee from other women in thy whoredoms, whereas none followeth thee to commit whoredoms: and in that thou givest a reward, and no reward is given unto thee, therefore thou art contrary.

The Lord shows Jerusalem what she did in response. The people, instead of seeking god and asking fro forgiveness, they whored off to other countries, asking for their assistence, and whoring against God.


35. Wherefore, O harlot, hear the word of the LORD:

36Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thy filthiness was poured out, and thy nakedness discovered through thy whoredoms with thy lovers, and with all the idols of thy abominations, and by the blood of thy children, which thou didst give unto them;

37. Behold, therefore I will gather all thy lovers, with whom thou hast taken pleasure, and all them that thou hast loved, with all them that thou hast hated; I will even gather them round about against thee, and will discover thy nakedness unto them, that they may see all thy nakedness.

38. And I will judge thee, as women that break wedlock and shed blood are judged; and I will give thee blood in fury and jealousy.

39And I will also give thee into their hand, and they shall throw down thine eminent place, and shall break down thy high places: they shall strip thee also of thy clothes, and shall take thy fair jewels, and leave thee naked and bare.

40. They shall also bring up a company against thee, and they shall stone thee with stones, and thrust thee through with their swords.

41. And they shall burn thine houses with fire, and execute judgments upon thee in the sight of many women: and I will cause thee to cease from playing the harlot, and thou also shalt give no hire any more.

42. So will I make my fury toward thee to rest, and my jealousy shall depart from thee, and I will be quiet, and will be no more angry.

43. Because thou hast not remembered the days of thy youth, but hast fretted me in all these things; behold, therefore I also will recompense thy way upon thine head, saith the Lord GOD: and thou shalt not commit this lewdness above all thine abominations.

44. Behold, every one that useth proverbs shall use this proverb against thee, saying, As is the mother, so is her daughter.

45. Thou art thy mother’s daughter, that lotheth her husband and her children; and thou art the sister of thy sisters, which lothed their husbands and their children: your mother was an Hittite, and your father an Amorite.

46. And thine elder sister is Samaria, she and her daughters that dwell at thy left hand: and thy younger sister, that dwelleth at thy right hand, is Sodom and her daughters.

47. Yet hast thou not walked after their ways, nor done after their abominations: but, as if that were a very little thing, thou wast corrupted more than they in all thy ways.

48. As I live, saith the Lord GOD, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters.

49. Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.

50. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.

51. Neither hath Samaria committed half of thy sins; but thou hast multiplied thine abominations more than they, and hast justified thy sisters in all thine abominations which thou hast done.

52. Thou also, which hast judged thy sisters, bear thine own shame for thy sins that thou hast committed more abominable than they: they are more righteous than thou: yea, be thou confounded also, and bear thy shame, in that thou hast justified thy sisters.

53. When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them:

54. That thou mayest bear thine own shame, and mayest be confounded in all that thou hast done, in that thou art a comfort unto them.

55. When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.

56. For thy sister Sodom was not mentioned by thy mouth in the day of thy pride,

57. Before thy wickedness was discovered, as at the time of thy reproach of the daughters of Syria, and all that are round about her, the daughters of the Philistines, which despise thee round about.

58. Thou hast borne thy lewdness and thine abominations, saith the LORD. 59For thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even deal with thee as thou hast done, which hast despised the oath in breaking the covenant.

This is the judgment that God pronounced over Jerusalem. Isaiah and Jeremiah had the same pronouncements proclaimed against both Israel and Judah. This happened when Babylon took over Jerusalem, captured the people, and razed the city and the temple along with it.


60. Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee in the days of thy youth, and I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant.

61. Then thou shalt remember thy ways, and be ashamed, when thou shalt receive thy sisters, thine elder and thy younger: and I will give them unto thee for daughters, but not by thy covenant.

62. And I will establish my covenant with thee; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD:

63. That thou mayest remember, and be confounded, and never open thy mouth any more because of thy shame, when I am pacified toward thee for all that thou hast done, saith the Lord GOD.

This is the most important part. Although Jerusalem was a whore, nevertheless, the Lord will still make a covenant, and they shall know that He is God. This is not the same as eternal destruction, the fate of Babylon. As history tells us, the people were captured, the city was burned with fire, and the people had to stay in captivity for at least 70 years. This is not unfulfilled prophecy, Ezekiel 16. This is fulfilled, and it was done a long time ago.

quiet dove
Jan 6th 2009, 07:06 PM
john146
With that said, I don't believe it is America, either. (Babylon)
Well, it does look like we agree on something. :thumbsup:

Pre trib, post trib and an amiller, all agreeing on something.:eek:

third hero
Jan 6th 2009, 08:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by third hero http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1932458#post1932458)

Quote:
john146
With that said, I don't believe it is America, either. (Babylon)
Well, it does look like we agree on something. :thumbsup:

Pre trib, post trib and an amiller, all agreeing on something.:eek:

NOw that IS shocking! :eek::lol:

Partaker of Christ
Jan 7th 2009, 12:42 AM
Pre trib, post trib and an amiller, all agreeing on something.:eek:


:crazy:

Quick someone lock the thread :D

Prophecy Countdown
Jan 8th 2009, 12:23 AM
Derail alert!

I totally disagree with the idea that Jerusalem is the Whore of Babylon. The fate of babylon is complete destruction and the elimination from the earth, whereas Jerusalem's fate is not the same as Babylon.

And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. -Revelation 18:21

And [men] shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited. Zechariah 14:11

The Bible does not contradict itself. If Jerusalem is Babylon, then Jerusalme would have to be both destroyed and safely inhabited, both not found at all and plainly seen. Both are impossible at the exact same time. Jerusalem can not be Babylon.


I agree, the Bible does not contradict itself but there are some prophetic events that are conditional such as Zechariah 14: 11.

Credits to-
[1]Jerry Falwell, executive editor; Edward E. Hinson and Michael Kroll Woodrow, general editors, KJV Bible commentary [computer file], electronic ed., Logos Library System, (Nashville: Thomas Nelson) 1997, c1994.

“10. To draw attention to the dramatic change of events and to symbolize the fact that certain relationships are severed, Messiah says, I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people. The covenant which is broken is not the Abrahamic covenant or any of Israel’s unconditional covenants, but rather an indirect covenant with the nations of the earth that exists because of God’s direct, unconditional covenants with Israel. The breaking of the staff, even Beauty indicates that in keeping Israel secure from every potential foe the grace of God will be suspended; and the nations will be permitted to come into the land to devastate and conquer Israel. During the time that Israel was in fellowship with Him, God restrained all the people so that none could do violence to Israel. The breaking of Beauty suspends that restraint, and now all the people may do whatever they will to Israel.”
“11. The prophet anticipates the fulfillment of the staff, Beauty, and writes as though it were already an accomplished fact: And it was broken in that day, i.e., the day in which God’s long-suffering with His people should cease and His protective restraint in their behalf should be lifted. It actually occurred in the days following our Lord’s earthly ministry when the Romans devastated the land (a.d. 70), and it will once again occur during the days of the Great Tribulation. As always, the poor of the flock (not poor economically, but humble spiritually—it is a designation for the “… remnant according to the election of grace” cf. Rom 11:5) knew that it was the word of the Lord. Those in right relationship with God always accept the Word of the Lord, regardless of its content. Their right relationship to God is indicated by their reception of His Word. This principle is ever true.”
“12. And I said unto them (the unbelieving nation, not the poor of the flock, vs. 11)—the Messiah is speaking to the unregenerate nation in order to bring to their attention graphically the depths to which they have sunk in their rejection of Him. He asks them to evaluate Him and His ministry: If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. The asking for hire is indicative that the ministry is coming to an end. What He wanted was their love, obedience, and devotion—in short, themselves. They, however, indicated their evaluation of His Person and Work; So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. Thirty pieces of silver, according to Exodus 21:32, was the price to be paid to the master whose slave had been gored by an ox! A sound slave was considered to be worth twice that amount! This is the ultimate insult—Messiah, God’s Son, worth only the price of an incapacitated, gored slave!”[1] (http://bibleforums.org/#_ftn1)
[1]Jerry Falwell, executive editor; Edward E. Hinson and Michael Kroll Woodrow, general editors, KJV Bible commentary [computer file], electronic ed., Logos Library System, (Nashville: Thomas Nelson) 1997, c1994.

I note that you quote Rev 18: 21, in isolation, let’s have a closer look using more verses.

Rev 18: 15. The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing, 16.And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!

Rev 18: 17. For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off, Rev 18: 18. And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What like unto this great city!

Jews would cast dust on their heads over Jerusalem, but certainly not for the destruction of Babylon!


Rev 18: 19. And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

Jerusalem’s crimes.
Matthew 23: 32. Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [I]some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

35. That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 36. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

37. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38. Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Rev 18: 20. Rejoice over her, heaven, and holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her. 21And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

PC

John146
Jan 8th 2009, 06:58 PM
Pre trib, post trib and an amiller, all agreeing on something.:eek:Can the Lord's return be far off when we're seeing signs and wonders like this? :D