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poochie
Jan 1st 2009, 07:00 PM
Here is part 2 of my 3 part article on separation. As always I am welcome to feedback as I am in the editing stage. Enjoy!

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Separation from False Teachers

Definitions

False Teacher: A false teacher is one whom deceives people into following another gospel message or whom teaches false doctrine. False teachers are deceptive and are easily able to land themselves in teaching/preaching positions. They may have charismatic personalities, excellent rhetoric, affluence, and possess other qualities, which get them into roles where they are allowed to teach. False teachers do not only teach different gospel messages, as they can also teach false doctrines. For example, many King James Version Only (KJVO) Fundamentalist pastors/evangelists are false teachers. Although they hold to the essential fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith, they teach that only one translation is to be used and can be read from. All too often do they fail to understand that not everyone can read on a 12th grade level, and to many; the modern translations are far easier to understand. I wrote an article on false teachers as I described them as Spiritual Terrorists and I suggest you read it. Also a well written book on the subject is John Macarthur’s The Truth War and I again suggest you read it.

Key Verses

Galatians 1:8-9
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

In the passage, Paul strongly denounces the Judaizer’s twisting of the good news of Jesus Christ. To emphasize the fact that the good news of Jesus cannot be changed Paul starts off with a hypothetical case and says that if an angel (heavenly messenger) were to come and give another gospel message that he was to be condemned. Paul wrote this many years before the founding of the Mormon cult and tragically the deceiver Joseph Smith did not read this passage. In 1823 an Angel “Moroni” appeared to Smith and reveled to him the location of some golden plates that contained another gospel message. Paul does not leave the exclusion of condemnation to an angel, but to him or anyone else. Paul states “but though we” and this means that God’s curse would fall on Paul if he were to teach a gospel message contrary to the one revealed. The gospel is plain and those that teach a different one are condemned. The Bible does not need any more revelation and is complete. Charismatics all too often believe in continuing revelation as continuing revelation is a not endorsed by the scriptures as mentioned in Rev 22:18-19. The scriptures are complete and do not need any additions or deletions. Those that add and delete from them will be judged most severely. In verse, 9 Paul seems to repeat himself but in doing so makes the point clear that the gospel cannot be changed or altered. The gospel has been revealed and there is no way to salvation apart from Jesus Christ (Jn 14:6). Strong cursing's and condemnation fall on those that teach another gospel message. The Mormon leaders will be judged, as well as anyone else that ads or changes the gospel message.

Christians should boldly stand against false teachers and those that teach different gospel messages. I regularly do soul winning in my area and have bumped into Catholics, JW’s, Mormons and others that believe or teach different gospels. I have been as bold and direct with them as possible at times and in doing so made some of them angry. In the “all things love” society that we live in, such dogmatic views for the truth are not popular, even among professing Christians. But remember that Paul himself was not nice, and he was sternly direct about the condemnation and judgment of the false teachers. A Oneness Pentecostal pastor that I used to know I often would regularly expose his false teachings as contrary to the gospel. This often made him angry, but he knew he was teaching another gospel message but was deceived. Likewise should Christians oppose false teachers and false doctrine as Paul did. The need is even greater today than in Paul’s day as false teachers are roaming the earth with different gospel messages. The battle cry for the Truth War is at hand and Christians should stand up and join the battle. If people cared for the souls of others like Paul did then they would. But the tragic reality is that most Christians do not care much for the souls that are daily going to hell. I once heard that 97% of Christians do not regular evangelize and this is because they have a fear of people, a fear of failure, and the last reason why most Christians do not evangelize is because they are more concerned about their flesh. (Evangelist Tom Farrow, BJU Chapel, 12/8/08)

Romans 16:17-18
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them, which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

In this passage, Paul gives a warning to the Roman Christians about the false teachers before they actually appear in the community. It is very possible that prior to writing this letter Paul had already heard of the false teachers and he wanted to warn the Roman Christians to be ready for they are coming. There is no way to identify the exact group that Paul had in mind. However based on the characteristics mentioned; three groups have been suggested. Protognostics (Dodd; Bruce 1985), Judaizers (Godet 1969; Lenski 1945; Stuhlmacher 1994; Schreiner 1998), or the strong and weak parties (Barrett 1957; M. Black 1973). Paul urges the Romans to watch out as the false teachers tend to cause divisions or “dissension” in the community. Secondly, the false teachers put obstacles or “stumbling blocks” before the believers. The only proper way to respond to false teachers is to stay away from them and avoid them at all costs. The purity of the church must be guarded zealously and allowing the false teachers in the church would compromise the purity of the fellowship. In the same way must churches guard their fellowships from false teachers. I once spoke with a American Baptist pastor who said that for Christmas singing he and his church join the Mormons in reaching the city. I said to him that the doctrine of Separation prohibited such a position, and he refused to listen. Perhaps I came on him too harsh, but perhaps it was necessary as this disobedient brother needed a strong rebuke for leading others into thinking that associating with the Mormons is okay. Under no circumstance should a follower of Christ associate or have company with false teachers. It certainly is not acceptable according to the Bible that God gave.

Acts 20:28-31 (NIV)
Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.

The passage starts off with the exhortation which is addressed to the Ephesian elders. Paul commands them to watch themselves and also the flocks which have been given to them by the Holy Spirit. The exhortation is for the pastor “elder” or “shepherd” of God’s church. Paul next warns the Ephesian elders of the great deception that will be coming to the church after his departure. He describes the deceivers as “savage wolves” (NIV, NASB, NKJV), “fierce wolves” (ESV) and “grievous wolves” (KJV). Personally I prefer the NIV, NKJV and NASB’s rendering of the Greek word barus into savage which I believe better illustrates the seriousness and appetites of the false teachers. The false teachers are deceivers and are very hungry for a meal. There are many savage wolves roaming around in pulpits deceiving God’s children today. These wolves are able to land their positions of authority, because of their affluence, charisma and the like. In verse 30 Paul states that the false teachers will come from within the church. The false teachers are very deceptive, and so weak-minded Christians that do not read their Bibles are deceived by the lies of these savage wolves. Next in verse 31 Paul gives the ultimate exhortation for the Ephesian elders to be on their guard. Paul never stopped warning them night and day with tears. This example is to be followed by those serious about the truth. Tragically there are few even concerned about warning others of false teachers, because everyone is so blinded by “postmodernism”, “tolerance” and “multi-culturism” that they lack the discernment necessary to be effective apologists or are afraid of offending others. The duty to discern and to expose false teachers is primarily for the pastor, but it must not be limited to the pastor, because it’s the duty of all Christians to call out and oppose false teachers. The fields are ripe and many false teachers would not be in their positions of authority if Christians today got serious about engaging in the Truth War.

Matt 7:15-20 (ESV)
Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.

Here Jesus is speaking to the crowd in his famous Sermon the Mount. In the culture context of Jesus’ day would people disguise themselves in sheepskins in the hope of being taken for stray dogs and other types of animals (Jos. War 3.192). But Jesus uses hyperbole (exaggeration for effect) as wolves do not wear clothes, and changing one’s hide was a metaphor for the impossible (Je 13:23; Jub. 37:20). The false prophets seek a meal on the sheep and the best way for them to get that meal is to dress as sheep refer to (Mt 10:16). There are many denominations that at one time were sound Bible preaching separatists. American Baptists, Assemblies of God, & the Conservative Baptist Association are a few of many denominations that have been deceived by savage wolves. These denominations went on the path to liberalism by making small steps and consequently went down the slippery slope. I know of one CBA church in my area and although they believe in the Fundamentals of the Christian faith, they have opened the door to liberalism by allowing women to teach adult Sunday school, by changing their worship style from traditional to contemporary, and by creating a contemporary cafe like atmosphere on Friday nights for the 20 something crowd. These leaders at this church claim that doing these things is the best way to reach the modern generation. But such a position is really the polite way for these leaders to say that they deny the doctrine of Sufficiency. For if they believed in the doctrine of Sufficiency they would believe that the word of God alone can change hearts, enlighten the eyes, and make wise the simple (Psa 19:7-8). Therefore there is no need for attractive programs or anykind of Market Driven approach to reaching the lost for the Bible alone is good enough.

In verses 16-20 Jesus explains to us how we can discern false teachers. Fruit is what can be used to measure the false teachers and is a metaphor for both character and conduct. The way the false teachers act is the way to detect them. In the Old Testament there were tests for the true prophet. The law as mentioned in Dt 13:1-5 required that a false prophet be put to death if he promoted rebellion against God. Tree’s can bear good or bad fruit and that fruit will be revealed no matter what the person claims of himself. Those that claim Christ yet glorify themselves or glorify self-fulfillment in their teachings can be false teachers. Joel Osteen a very charismatic and outstanding speaker, tends to be one that glorifies himself and self-fulfillment in his messages. I once was a follower of Joel Osteen, and while I do admit that he is quite deceptive, the truth is that his sermons have little if any gospel as Osteen never speaks on sin that I am aware of, and says only what people want to hear. Although it is possible that Joel Osteen himself may be saved, he has deceived countless millions. Many that hear his message and die the next day will be cast into a crisis without ever realizing their need for a savior. Bill Johnson of Bethel Church, Creflo Dollar, & Robert Schuller are also a few of many false teachers that are deceiving many. Christians must discern their teachers by their fruits and in doing so can tell whom is true and whom is false for many false prophets have gone out into the world (2 Jn 7).

Purposes in separating from false teachers

The Christian separates for the following reasons.

1. To maintain the doctrinal integrity of the church (I Timothy 2:6).
2. To protect the sheep or flock from error, which hinders spiritual growth (Acts 20:28; II Peter 2:1-2).

Additional scriptures related to separating from False Teachers
II Corinthians 11:13-15
II John 9-11
II Peter 2:1-3
I Timothy 1:3-7
I Timothy 6:3-5
Deuteronomy 13:1-3

amazzin
Jan 1st 2009, 07:07 PM
...... For example, many King James Version Only (KJVO) Fundamentalist pastors/evangelists are false teachers. Although they hold to the essential fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith, they teach that only one translation is to be used and can be read from. All too often do they fail to understand that not everyone can read on a 12th grade level, and to many; the modern translations are far easier to understand. I wrote an article on false teachers as I described them as Spiritual Terrorists and I suggest you read it. Also a well written book on the subject is John Macarthur’s The Truth War and I again suggest you read it.

Poochie

First, I am not a fan of the KJV. IN fact, haven't picked it up in over 10 years for any sort of study or even preaching but to call those who read the KJV only spiritual terrorists and false teachers. That's off base.

Second, news bulletin ...if true,...Joh Macarthur falls nicely in your definition of a false teacher

poochie
Jan 1st 2009, 07:10 PM
KJVO are false teachers, but are the best type as they are saved false teachers.

But to convince you more of the extreme of some KJVO check out this.

http://cerm.info/images/ruckman_letter.gif


Poochie

First, I am not a fan of the KJV. IN fact, haven't picked it up in over 10 years for any sort of study or even preaching but to call those who read the KJV only spiritual terrorists and false teachers. That's off base.

Second, news bulletin ...if true,...Joh Macarthur falls nicely in your definition of a false teacher

amazzin
Jan 1st 2009, 07:34 PM
But this is what you said


Although they hold to the essential fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith,

How can they be false if they hold onto essentials? To say something is false it means they are "anti". It means they preach/teach a different gospel, beleive in a different God????

Bethany67
Jan 1st 2009, 07:35 PM
You might want to reference Jude - the threat of false teachers (in this case, Gnostics) was so great that he chose to write a warning about them rather than on his original plan to talk about the salvation that Christians share. It wasn't intended for one particular church as some of Paul's letters, but rather for general circulation to all the churches. It contains some of the most graphic (and poetic) imagery about false teachers masquerading as Christians, and may well have been a source for 2 Peter 2:17-22:

12These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—twice dead. 13They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

2 Peter:

17These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. 20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit,"and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."

From Jude:

- they don't feed or build up the church, just themselves to suit their own agenda
- no source of essential nourishment and not fitting for their original natural purposes - clouds without rain, trees neither giving fruit nor being nourished by the ground
- chaotic and without discipline, blown by the wind, wild waves, wandering stars - not subject to any control or order, mavericks

2 Peter implies they were once orthodox Christians who have turned from the truth and are spreading their corruption and turning grace into a licence to sin.

Firstfruits
Jan 1st 2009, 07:36 PM
Hi Poochie,

You may have noticed that when posting scriptures I use the KJV, I do however compare scriptures with other versions, in order to make sure they do not contradict.

Would you say that because I use the KJV that I am a false teacher?

Firstfruits

Bethany67
Jan 1st 2009, 07:50 PM
I think poochie's point is not against anyone who reads the KJV, nor necessarily against those who advocate the use of the KJV in preference to other translations, but against those who say only the KJV gives a complete picture of salvation, and anyone using another version cannot be saved becuse they have automatically been led astray. I've certainly encountered those kind of people myself and consider them a cult.

poochie
Jan 1st 2009, 08:29 PM
You can be a false teacher and still be saved, you just teach false doctrine.

Sinless Perfectionism is a false doctrine, but is not a hellfire doctrine.


But this is what you said



How can they be false if they hold onto essentials? To say something is false it means they are "anti". It means they preach/teach a different gospel, beleive in a different God????

poochie
Jan 1st 2009, 08:33 PM
I said KJVO King James Version Only. I need to edit that line.

let me do it.


False Teacher: A false teacher is one whom deceives people into following another gospel message or whom teaches false doctrine. False teachers are deceptive and are easily able to land themselves in teaching/preaching positions. They may have charismatic personalities, excellent rhetoric, affluence, and possess other qualities, which get them into roles where they are allowed to teach. False teachers do not only teach different gospel messages, as they can also teach false doctrines. For example, many King James Version Only (KJVO) Fundamentalist pastors/evangelists are false teachers. Please note that I am not making reference to those that prefer the KJV, I am simply making a reference to those that believe that ONLY THE KJV is to be read from and only the KJV has the scripture contained to lead someone to salvation. Such types will claim that one cannot learn of salvation by reading from the New International Version (NIV) or one of the other modern translations. Although these KJVO hold to the essential fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith, they teach that only one translation is to be used and can be read from. All too often do they fail to understand that not everyone can read on a 12th grade level, and to many; the modern translations are far easier to understand. I wrote an article on false teachers as I described them as Spiritual Terrorists that I suggest you read. Also a well-written book on the subject is John Macarthur’s The Truth War that I suggest you read.


Hi Poochie,

You may have noticed that when posting scriptures I use the KJV, I do however compare scriptures with other versions, in order to make sure they do not contradict.

Would you say that because I use the KJV that I am a false teacher?

Firstfruits

poochie
Jan 1st 2009, 08:34 PM
Made it a little clearer. Thanks for the input.

False Teacher: A false teacher is one whom deceives people into following another gospel message or whom teaches false doctrine. False teachers are deceptive and are easily able to land themselves in teaching/preaching positions. They may have charismatic personalities, excellent rhetoric, affluence, and possess other qualities, which get them into roles where they are allowed to teach. False teachers do not only teach different gospel messages, as they can also teach false doctrines. For example, many King James Version Only (KJVO) Fundamentalist pastors/evangelists are false teachers. Please note that I am not making reference to those that prefer the KJV, I am simply making a reference to those that believe that ONLY THE KJV is to be read from and only the KJV has the scripture contained to lead someone to salvation. Such types will claim that one cannot learn of salvation by reading from the New International Version (NIV) or one of the other modern translations. Although these KJVO hold to the essential fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith, they teach that only one translation is to be used and can be read from. All too often do they fail to understand that not everyone can read on a 12th grade level, and to many; the modern translations are far easier to understand. I wrote an article on false teachers as I described them as Spiritual Terrorists that I suggest you read. Also a well-written book on the subject is John Macarthur’s The Truth War that I suggest you read.

poochie
Jan 1st 2009, 08:35 PM
exactly. Thanks for the input. I've also encountered them as they are also Fundamentalist.


I think poochie's point is not against anyone who reads the KJV, nor necessarily against those who advocate the use of the KJV in preference to other translations, but against those who say only the KJV gives a complete picture of salvation, and anyone using another version cannot be saved becuse they have automatically been led astray. I've certainly encountered those kind of people myself and consider them a cult.

Brother Mark
Jan 1st 2009, 09:33 PM
Hi John. I have a couple of questions to start with...

In your definition, you mention a false gospel and false doctrine. The body of your report gives verses for false gospel. But what scripture do you use to say a false teacher is one who is saved, but teaches error?

Second, could you expound on the following sentence?


Charismatics all too often believe in continuing revelation as continuing revelation is a not endorsed by the scriptures as mentioned in Rev 22:18-19.

Personally, I know of no Charismatics who teach this...

Thanks,

Mark

Amos_with_goats
Jan 1st 2009, 09:47 PM
Poochie,

I appreciate your study, I DO believe that separation is an important topic. Separation is maybe even more important then 'unity' since unity is a concept that has taken on a wrong minded meaning in our age, one having to do with compromise as the 'Spirit of Anti-Christ' grows more prevalent.

However, I do believe there is a subtle flaw in your study that is an important one.

Many of the beliefs I have come to over the years conflict to varying degrees with mainstream Christianity / churchanity.

If I only fellowship with those who hold all of the doctrinal distinctions as I then I will be in a very small group, probably small enough that there will not even be 'two or more'. My spouse is about 99% lined up, but I doubt 100%. She is female after all. ;)

:D

What distinction does your study find on where to draw the line?

Thanks,

poochie
Jan 1st 2009, 10:03 PM
Hi John. I have a couple of questions to start with...

In your definition, you mention a false gospel and false doctrine. The body of your report gives verses for false gospel. But what scripture do you use to say a false teacher is one who is saved, but teaches error?

Second, could you expound on the following sentence?



Personally, I know of no Charismatics who teach this...

Thanks,

Mark

I do. Many teach continuining revelation. They even mentioned that in chapel once.

Brother Mark
Jan 1st 2009, 10:11 PM
I do. Many teach continuining revelation. They even mentioned that in chapel once.

What do you mean by "continuing revelation"? Keep in mind that just because someone teaches another does that sort of thing, doesn't mean people actually do it. Jesus had a reputation of being a wine bibber and a glutton, but he wasn't.

Also, I look forward to a verse for a definition of a false teacher. you did a great job for one who teaches a false gospel.

Grace and peace,

Mark

poochie
Jan 2nd 2009, 05:46 AM
What do you mean by "continuing revelation"? Keep in mind that just because someone teaches another does that sort of thing, doesn't mean people actually do it. Jesus had a reputation of being a wine bibber and a glutton, but he wasn't.

Also, I look forward to a verse for a definition of a false teacher. you did a great job for one who teaches a false gospel.

Grace and peace,

Mark

I have been exposed to many Charismatics myself to get the picture on what they believe. Also John MacArthur confirms this in Charismatic Chaos.

poochie
Jan 2nd 2009, 06:00 AM
Thanks for the input and I made some modifications. Thanks again!
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False Teacher: A false teacher is one whom deceives people into following another gospel message or whom teaches false doctrine. I wrote an article on false teachers as I described them as (Spiritual Terrorists (http://www.cerm.info/bible_studies/Apologetics/Spiritual_Terrorists.htm)) that I suggest you read. Also a well-written book on the subject is John Macarthur’s The Truth War that I also suggest you read. Both sources provide a more in-depth Biblical definition than what can be provided in this article on false teachers. False teachers are deceptive and are easily able to land themselves in teaching/preaching positions. They may have charismatic personalities, excellent rhetoric, affluence, and possess other qualities, which get them into roles where they are allowed to teach. False teachers do not only teach different gospel messages, as they can also teach false doctrines. For example, many King James Version Only (KJVO) Fundamentalist pastors/evangelists are false teachers. Please note that I am not making reference to those that prefer the KJV, I am simply making a reference to those that believe that ONLY THE KJV is to be read from and only the KJV has the scripture contained to lead someone to salvation. Such types will claim that one cannot learn of salvation by reading from the New International Version (NIV) or one of the other modern translations. Although these KJVO hold to the essential fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith, they teach that only one translation is to be used and can be read from. All too often do they fail to understand that not everyone can read on a 12th grade level, and to many; the modern translations are far easier to understand.

Firstfruits
Jan 2nd 2009, 11:25 AM
I said KJVO King James Version Only. I need to edit that line.

let me do it.

Thanks Poochie,

Message understood. I would just like to add that there are many false teachers, even those that use other versions.

Gal 1:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

Gal 1:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

Gal 1:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Gal 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

If what is being taught is not according to the Gospel we have received it is those that teach so that we must be aware of.

2 Pet 2:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Bethany67
Jan 2nd 2009, 11:41 AM
I have been exposed to many Charismatics myself to get the picture on what they believe. Also John MacArthur confirms this in Charismatic Chaos.

Well I would describe myself as both Evangelical and Charismatic (your two bugbears ;)), but the Bible is my authority and yardstick. Everything gets measured against it, and gets turfed out if it doesn't agree.

shepherdsword
Jan 2nd 2009, 12:00 PM
I have been exposed to many Charismatics myself to get the picture on what they believe. Also John MacArthur confirms this in Charismatic ChaosAre you putting all Charismatics into this box? Personally, I don't consider myself a "charismatic" just a Christian. However, that is perhaps the label I would be given by certain groups because I believe that the Gift of the Spirit is in operation today. I know that's the category John MacArthur would place me in. MacArthur does have a good study bible out but I hardly consider him one that speaks with Apostolic authority on the issue of Spirit Baptism. It is just something that he hasn't experienced it the typical sense that us "charismatics" have. To me he is like Apollos:

Acts 18:24-25

24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.
25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.

This clearly refers to another baptism other than the one Apollos had experienced and the context in the preceding chapters define that as a Holy Ghost baptism. You know, the one Jesus gives with some fire mixed in?
As for heresy I think there are three basic forms:
1) Division of the body of Christ ( in some sense this includes us all:eek:)
2)Out right false doctrine that departs from the "faith once delivered to the saints"( basic truth:virgin birth,faith in blood atonement only for salvation,the trinity,resurrection and the second coming )
3) Taking a part and making it the WHOLE( I would go into detail on this but I would have to name some well known names a "faux pas" here)

ProjectPeter
Jan 2nd 2009, 01:21 PM
I think the biggest problem Poochie... you sort of take a big wide paintbrush and use broadstrokes to paint your picture of a false teacher. That's the problem when you start tagging certain groups of people such as KJVO and Charismatic folk etc.

Here's some advice. Just focus on the topic of false teaching. You don't have to mention groups or certain people. Stick with what Scripture defines as a false teacher and you can even point out false doctrines etc. In doing that... you are not using a broadbrush thus causing you to have to change the study. Start out using the finer brush and be specific. The names need not be said if the study is specific on the false doctrines itself. Let me give you an example.

Joe Schmucky is a false teacher.

Okay... so now everyone knows that Joe Schmucky is a false teacher so when they see or hear Joe folks will say... oh yeah... this guy is a false teacher! Maybe they turn him off or shut their ear to him. Then later they listen to Bob Nobody. They don't turn Bob off but start listening to him. They grow to like old Bob and start following his teachings. What they don't know... Bob teaches everything that he learned from Joe Schmucky.

Names and groups don't help folk ultimately. They need to be taught what the false doctrine is. Don't muddy it up with names of people or groups. That doesn't mean that you won't be forced at times to name a name. That happens. But it should be rare and not the norm.

Brother Mark
Jan 2nd 2009, 02:23 PM
I have been exposed to many Charismatics myself to get the picture on what they believe. Also John MacArthur confirms this in Charismatic Chaos.

John, you still haven't explained what you mean by "continuing revelation". Please define that. It's hard for me to know what you are saying without a definition. I would consider "continuing revelation" as that which adds to scripture and says "this is scripture". I don't know anybody that does that in charismatic circles.

Thanks,

Mark

VerticalReality
Jan 2nd 2009, 02:28 PM
Joe Schmucky is a false teacher.

Okay... so now everyone knows that Joe Schmucky is a false teacher so when they see or hear Joe folks will say... oh yeah... this guy is a false teacher! Maybe they turn him off or shut their ear to him. Then later they listen to Bob Nobody. They don't turn Bob off but start listening to him. They grow to like old Bob and start following his teachings. What they don't know... Bob teaches everything that he learned from Joe Schmucky.

I got a little bit of a chuckle out of that one . . . :lol:

ProjectPeter
Jan 2nd 2009, 02:31 PM
I got a little bit of a chuckle out of that one . . . :lol:
I see it all the time too! I know a ton of folks that would have nothing to do with a certain teacher because they have heard by many folks that they respect say this person is a false teacher. Then as sure as God made little green apples... they will tell me of another teacher that they really enjoy and lo and behold... same doctrine just coming from a different pie hole!

shepherdsword
Jan 2nd 2009, 02:43 PM
I see it all the time too! I know a ton of folks that would have nothing to do with a certain teacher because they have heard by many folks that they respect say this person is a false teacher. Then as sure as God made little green apples... they will tell me of another teacher that they really enjoy and lo and behold... same doctrine just coming from a different pie hole!
heh

I am wondering..how do you almost get *gulp* 23 THOUSAND posts!
The BBS owners must love you!
<you know,clicking on the ad banners on such ;)>

ProjectPeter
Jan 2nd 2009, 03:16 PM
heh

I am wondering..how do you almost get *gulp* 23 THOUSAND posts!
The BBS owners must love you!
<you know,clicking on the ad banners on such ;)>
I've been over 23,000 a couple of times now... ;) As they archive some things that count goes down now and again.

I've been here a while and stay pretty busy. If every post that I have made on the board counted... I'd likely be over 30,000. :lol: Call it lots of work... but the owner does love me but because he's either very kind or insane... maybe a little of both. :saint:

poochie
Jan 2nd 2009, 05:44 PM
Well I would describe myself as both Evangelical and Charismatic (your two bugbears ;)), but the Bible is my authority and yardstick. Everything gets measured against it, and gets turfed out if it doesn't agree.

Please reread or read my article in full again. Thanks..

I never said that evaqngelicals and Charismatics were bugbears nor did I say that Charismatics ALL believe in continuing revelation.

What I said was this


Many Charismatics all too
often believe in continuing revelation


In 2005 I head of a
Fundamentalist booting a man from his church because he was a Democrat.
This discipline situation ended up making the news, and that pastor had
a situation on his hands that he never wanted. Churches that separate
from the disobedient on such trivial matters are asking for trouble.


I believe that Evangelicals and Fundamentalists
are right and wrong in different areas and will all be perfected when
Christ comes (1 Cor 15:51-52). At that time will we no longer argue over
trivial matters, for we will be one accord. In the meantime it's
important to practice the doctrine of separation. So many do not
separate from the world, for they love the world more so than Christ.
Separation is a part of Sanctification and the process of sanctification
is a lifetime process (Eph 4:22-24), but it should be a process that all
Christians should be engaged in. Those that are not engaged in it shall
not see the Lord (Heb 12:14). Some Christians grow slowly, and remain
spiritual infants for a long time. They do not grow because they do not
read their Bibles, and do not rely on the Holy Spirit. The Word of God
can help one grow (1 Pet 2:2). So therefore go out and follow the
Biblical mandates as outlined in this article on separation.

poochie
Jan 2nd 2009, 05:48 PM
John Macarthur takes his Bible seriously and knows that "Spirit Baptism" is a false doctrine.

If you read my article you would know that I personally would not separate from you personally over such matters.


Are you putting all Charismatics into this box? Personally, I don't consider myself a "charismatic" just a Christian. However, that is perhaps the label I would be given by certain groups because I believe that the Gift of the Spirit is in operation today. I know that's the category John MacArthur would place me in. MacArthur does have a good study bible out but I hardly consider him one that speaks with Apostolic authority on the issue of Spirit Baptism. It is just something that he hasn't experienced it the typical sense that us "charismatics" have. To me he is like Apollos:

Acts 18:24-25

24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.
25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.

This clearly refers to another baptism other than the one Apollos had experienced and the context in the preceding chapters define that as a Holy Ghost baptism. You know, the one Jesus gives with some fire mixed in?
As for heresy I think there are three basic forms:
1) Division of the body of Christ ( in some sense this includes us all:eek:)
2)Out right false doctrine that departs from the "faith once delivered to the saints"( basic truth:virgin birth,faith in blood atonement only for salvation,the trinity,resurrection and the second coming )
3) Taking a part and making it the WHOLE( I would go into detail on this but I would have to name some well known names a "faux pas" here)

poochie
Jan 2nd 2009, 05:49 PM
Thanks for the advice but its not in my Bible! Paul used names and exposed groups in his letters and so will I! Plenty of chapel speakers at my school mention names and groups publicly! Also MacArthur does it often in his books.



I think the biggest problem Poochie... you sort of take a big wide paintbrush and use broadstrokes to paint your picture of a false teacher. That's the problem when you start tagging certain groups of people such as KJVO and Charismatic folk etc.

Here's some advice. Just focus on the topic of false teaching. You don't have to mention groups or certain people. Stick with what Scripture defines as a false teacher and you can even point out false doctrines etc. In doing that... you are not using a broadbrush thus causing you to have to change the study. Start out using the finer brush and be specific. The names need not be said if the study is specific on the false doctrines itself. Let me give you an example.

Joe Schmucky is a false teacher.

Okay... so now everyone knows that Joe Schmucky is a false teacher so when they see or hear Joe folks will say... oh yeah... this guy is a false teacher! Maybe they turn him off or shut their ear to him. Then later they listen to Bob Nobody. They don't turn Bob off but start listening to him. They grow to like old Bob and start following his teachings. What they don't know... Bob teaches everything that he learned from Joe Schmucky.

Names and groups don't help folk ultimately. They need to be taught what the false doctrine is. Don't muddy it up with names of people or groups. That doesn't mean that you won't be forced at times to name a name. That happens. But it should be rare and not the norm.

poochie
Jan 2nd 2009, 05:53 PM
John, you still haven't explained what you mean by "continuing revelation". Please define that. It's hard for me to know what you are saying without a definition. I would consider "continuing revelation" as that which adds to scripture and says "this is scripture". I don't know anybody that does that in charismatic circles.

Thanks,

Mark

It means this.

Those that believe that God can use revelation outside of his word to reveal stuff are into continuing revelation. I know of Charismatics that claim this "why Limit God to the Bible?"

Check out this article.

http://www.geocities.com/pvrosman/The_Charismatic_Heresy.html

Or Charismatic Chaos

http://books.google.com/books?id=TnVj53uZVjkC&pg=PA63&lpg=PA63&dq=Charismatics+and+continuing+revelation&source=web&ots=PugssSi66g&sig=K3NMeTO2HM7vbFr5t6mbR4ngnd4&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=9&ct=result

ProjectPeter
Jan 2nd 2009, 05:59 PM
Thanks for the advice but its not in my Bible! Paul used names and exposed groups in his letters and so will I! Plenty of chapel speakers at my school mention names and groups publicly! Also MacArthur does it often in his books.
I see. Those speakers and John Mc do it therefore it's gotta be good? Ever think that those guys might themselves be in error?

As to it being in your Bible... what is in your Bible about this matter?

Brother Mark
Jan 2nd 2009, 06:00 PM
It means this.

Those that believe that God can use revelation outside of his word to reveal stuff are into continuing revelation. I know of Charismatics that claim this "why Limit God to the Bible?"

IMO, that's a vague definition. God himself said he reveals things outside of scripture. In Romans 1 he says that creation reveals the Godhead. The psalms also says that creation reveals the glory of God.

Was it God's will for you to attend the college you went to? Was the name of the college in the scriptures?

The first link builds a straw man to tear down.

The second link has falacies as well. For instance, how did you know it was God's will for you to go to the college you went to? How did God "reveal" that? (I know I asked it above.)

ProjectPeter
Jan 2nd 2009, 06:01 PM
It means this.

Those that believe that God can use revelation outside of his word to reveal stuff are into continuing revelation. I know of Charismatics that claim this "why Limit God to the Bible?"

Check out this article.

http://www.geocities.com/pvrosman/The_Charismatic_Heresy.html

Or Charismatic Chaos

http://books.google.com/books?id=TnVj53uZVjkC&pg=PA63&lpg=PA63&dq=Charismatics+and+continuing+revelation&source=web&ots=PugssSi66g&sig=K3NMeTO2HM7vbFr5t6mbR4ngnd4&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=9&ct=result
Not a real easy way to say this so I'll just say it anyway. Why are you posting exerpts of books and links to websites? This is Bible Chat... let's talk Bible and not links to sites. In there you will find truth untainted by man's opinion. ;)

poochie
Jan 2nd 2009, 06:03 PM
Paul did mention names and groups in his letters which were read t the whole church, so he did expose names and groups publicly.

Check out The Truth War. MacArthur has more refs that I cant recall at this time. But I read that one very slowly and highlighted much. He's got tons of refs in there.


I see. Those speakers and John Mc do it therefore it's gotta be good? Ever think that those guys might themselves be in error?

As to it being in your Bible... what is in your Bible about this matter?

Emanate
Jan 2nd 2009, 06:05 PM
Not a real easy way to say this so I'll just say it anyway. Why are you posting exerpts of books and links to websites? This is Bible Chat... let's talk Bible and not links to sites. In there you will find truth untainted by man's opinion. ;)


Yeah, we do not one to have to read someone else's opinion. That requires too many mouse clicks.

Amos_with_goats
Jan 2nd 2009, 06:06 PM
Did you miss this one?


Poochie,

I appreciate your study, I DO believe that separation is an important topic. Separation is maybe even more important then 'unity' since unity is a concept that has taken on a wrong minded meaning in our age, one having to do with compromise as the 'Spirit of Anti-Christ' grows more prevalent.

However, I do believe there is a subtle flaw in your study that is an important one.

Many of the beliefs I have come to over the years conflict to varying degrees with mainstream Christianity / churchanity.

If I only fellowship with those who hold all of the doctrinal distinctions as I then I will be in a very small group, probably small enough that there will not even be 'two or more'. My spouse is about 99% lined up, but I doubt 100%. She is female after all. ;)

:D

What distinction does your study find on where to draw the line?

Thanks,

poochie
Jan 2nd 2009, 06:06 PM
The Will of God is a tough subject. We know there is a Moral Will and a Sovereign Will.


IMO, that's a vague definition. God himself said he reveals things outside of scripture. In Romans 1 he says that creation reveals the Godhead. The psalms also says that creation reveals the glory of God.

Was it God's will for you to attend the college you went to? Was the name of the college in the scriptures?

The first link builds a straw man to tear down.

The second link has falacies as well. For instance, how did you know it was God's will for you to go to the college you went to? How did God "reveal" that? (I know I asked it above.)

poochie
Jan 2nd 2009, 06:11 PM
Not a real easy way to say this so I'll just say it anyway. Why are you posting exerpts of books and links to websites? This is Bible Chat... let's talk Bible and not links to sites. In there you will find truth untainted by man's opinion. ;)

I am a man as well you know and when I speak I am also relying on the Doctrine of Illumination just as those others.

Brother Mark
Jan 2nd 2009, 06:14 PM
The Will of God is a tough subject. We know there is a Moral Will and a Sovereign Will.

You dodged the question John. ;) What's the difference between God revealing his will to you and "continuing revelation"?

How did you know he called you to preach? Where in the scriptures did it say "I called Poochie to preach?"

poochie
Jan 2nd 2009, 06:14 PM
Did you miss this one?

No I did not. I would post the article to the full here but the forums wont allow a 7,000 + word article in a message field, so I'll post a clipping.


Conclusion
Since the writing of this article I have dialogued with a number of Evangelicals on a Internet discussion board whom have given me a number of different interpretations on the doctrine of separation. Some of these views have been Biblical and some have not. I enjoyed what one individual said about Jesus and the example he set. He did not separate himself from those that held a different worldview, nor does he isolate himself from disobedient believers and the ungodly as he seeks to redeem them (Rev 3:20). On that token I simply cannot endorse 2nd and 3rd degree separation as what is practiced by Fundamentalists. I believe that the Bible is quite clear on separating from the world, and false teachers. But separating from entire denominations over trivial matters like convictions on dress, movies, music, bible translations and the like is not right. There are many Evangelicals and charismatics that I personally separate from because of their false teachings, but simply separating from an entire denomination (Southern Baptists) is not be what the Bible teaches. Each church should be viewed on a case-by-case basis. There are Southern Baptists churches that I would attend, and ones I would stay away from. Do not misunderstand me as I am not arguing against separating from liberal denominations that are not sound. American Baptists and the Assemblies of God, I believe are mostly in direct disobedience to the scriptures, not only for their liberal theology, but for their disobedience on the doctrine of separation and I would not associate or attend any churches in these denominations. Rolland McCune in his book Promise Unfulfilled ads;

A wide spectrum of new evangelical thought exists concerning the various facets of apostasy, cooperation, and separation. Taken together, the salient features of this spectrum form a rationale for the anti-separation stance that characterized the new evangelical movement from the beginning (McCune, 129).

While I do believe that many Evangelicals are disobedient in this area, I do not believe that the Fundamentalists are perfect neither. Fundamentalists that are hyper judgmental and condescending are like the Pharisee mentioned in Lk 18 whom had no humility and praised God that he was not like others, because he saw himself as righteous and better than others. In this same way are there are many Fundamentalists that are self-righteous and look at others and base their righteousness by comparison to others. I believe that Evangelicals and Fundamentalists are right and wrong in different areas and will all be perfected when Christ comes (1 Cor 15:51-52). At that time will we no longer argue over trivial matters, for we will be one accord. In the meantime it’s important to practice the doctrine of separation. So many do not separate from the world, for they love the world more so than Christ. Separation is a part of Sanctification and the process of sanctification is a lifetime process (Eph 4:22-24), but it should be a process that all Christians should be engaged in. Those that are not engaged in it shall not see the Lord (Heb 12:14). Some Christians grow slowly, and remain spiritual infants for a long time. They do not grow because they do not read their Bibles, and do not rely on the Holy Spirit. The Word of God can help one grow (1 Pet 2:2). So therefore go out and follow the Biblical mandates as outlined in this article on separation.

poochie
Jan 2nd 2009, 06:20 PM
This is a huge can of worms and strays from the topic of separation.



You dodged the question John. ;) What's the difference between God revealing his will to you and "continuing revelation"?

How did you know he called you to preach? Where in the scriptures did it say "I called Poochie to preach?"

poochie
Jan 2nd 2009, 06:20 PM
Dont mention my real name in Public please.



You dodged the question John. ;) What's the difference between God revealing his will to you and "continuing revelation"?

How did you know he called you to preach? Where in the scriptures did it say "I called Poochie to preach?"

Brother Mark
Jan 2nd 2009, 06:23 PM
This is a huge can of worms and strays from the topic of separation.

It is entirely on topic. This is one reason I left the fundamentalist movement. I saw then condemn others when they themselves were guilty of the same thing.

It's a can of worms because it is hard to condemn the one and justify the other. Hopefully, it will give you pause...

Grace,

Mark

Brother Mark
Jan 2nd 2009, 06:25 PM
Dont mention my real name in Public please.

Sorry. You do know you signed your name to your posts though? THat's how I learned it. ;)

Why would you not wish your name out there but then go and put other people's name on the net?

poochie
Jan 2nd 2009, 06:35 PM
My name is not in any posts that I am aware of, and if I did mention it, it was an accident and probably only 1-2 out of all my posts so its not the norm.

I put other peoples on the net whom give theirs on the net.


Sorry. You do know you signed your name to your posts though? THat's how I learned it. ;)

Why would you not wish your name out there but then go and put other people's name on the net?

Brother Mark
Jan 2nd 2009, 06:42 PM
I put other peoples on the net whom give theirs on the net.

By that definition, I could continue to use yours. ;) Per your request, I will refrain though.

OK, tit for tat aside... I still don't see the difference between what Charismatics teach about "hearing God" and what Fundamentalist teach about how to know your called to the ministry.

I find it amusing that one will say God doesn't reveal himself outside of scripture then turn right around and say God called him to preach.

Even the bible itself says that God speaks to us outside of scripture. Romans 1 is all about that.

ProjectPeter
Jan 2nd 2009, 06:44 PM
I am a man as well you know and when I speak I am also relying on the Doctrine of Illumination just as those others.And as a man... what you say don't mean much. With some Scripture backing what you say... means much more. ;) Relying on man to illuminate you and at the same time you dog those talking about "new revelation"... you are one that would be easy prey to someone else giving "new revelation."

Let's discuss the Bible in this with this being "Bible" chat. So far... we are lacking that.

poochie
Jan 2nd 2009, 07:08 PM
I realize that I wont convince you and so see no need to try. Only the HS can do that, for you appear to be convinced of the errors of the Charismatic movement.



And as a man... what you say don't mean much. With some Scripture backing what you say... means much more. ;) Relying on man to illuminate you and at the same time you dog those talking about "new revelation"... you are one that would be easy prey to someone else giving "new revelation."

Let's discuss the Bible in this with this being "Bible" chat. So far... we are lacking that.

ProjectPeter
Jan 2nd 2009, 07:13 PM
I realize that I wont convince you and so see no need to try. Only the HS can do that, for you appear to be convinced of the errors of the Charismatic movement.
Um... don't be so quick to jump to conclusions and thus miss the point. POINT: This is Bible Chat and not website link chat. You are trying to make a case and folks have voiced their opinion etc. You said to me... that is not what the Bible says. I asked you... what then does the Bible say? You said I contradicted the Bible in my advice to you and you were quite froggy in doing so. Hence... several post later you still haven't provided a lick of Bible in your reasoning. So... since you have all of the biblical knowledge and wisdom here... enlighten us lesser ones whom advice you so casually blow off as unbiblical. If you cannot then I will either have the thread moved into another section that is more "opinion only" where they don't mind discussing links... or have it closed. Simple enough?

Brother Mark
Jan 2nd 2009, 07:14 PM
I realize that I wont convince you and so see no need to try. Only the HS can do that, for you appear to be convinced of the errors of the Charismatic movement.

Sigh. Fundamentalist are all about preaching but not answering. Jesus often asked the Pharisees questions they could not answer.

Is that the way you handle soul winning too? Just give up if they don't respond immediately?

poochie
Jan 2nd 2009, 08:00 PM
Its all your POV man. Since you and me disagree on this, I see no point in trying to reason with you.




Um... don't be so quick to jump to conclusions and thus miss the point. POINT: This is Bible Chat and not website link chat. You are trying to make a case and folks have voiced their opinion etc. You said to me... that is not what the Bible says. I asked you... what then does the Bible say? You said I contradicted the Bible in my advice to you and you were quite froggy in doing so. Hence... several post later you still haven't provided a lick of Bible in your reasoning. So... since you have all of the biblical knowledge and wisdom here... enlighten us lesser ones whom advice you so casually blow off as unbiblical. If you cannot then I will either have the thread moved into another section that is more "opinion only" where they don't mind discussing links... or have it closed. Simple enough?

poochie
Jan 2nd 2009, 08:02 PM
Sigh. Fundamentalist are all about preaching but not answering. Jesus often asked the Pharisees questions they could not answer.

Is that the way you handle soul winning too? Just give up if they don't respond immediately?

Sadly thats the way they operate at my school as well. Very nice people, and very smart. But the teachers HATE and wont tolerate challenges in class. Some/many even do not like even being questioned.

Yes we are big on preaching.

Firstfruits
Jan 2nd 2009, 08:27 PM
I believe that what is being said is that as the bible says the word must be above the word of men.

1 Cor 4:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

Firstfruits

ProjectPeter
Jan 2nd 2009, 08:54 PM
Then I will just have the thread closed. We can simply do that and make it much easier.