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A820djd
Jan 1st 2009, 07:17 PM
I found this link which seems awfully scary... Seems very harsh, but real.



"Of all the questions you will ask yourself in life, probably the most important is, “Am I good enough to go to Heaven?” The way to find this out is to ask yourself if you have obeyed the Ten Commandments (http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/commandmentstheten.html) (listed below). Most would answer the question, “Well, I’ve broken one or two, but nothing too serious, like murder, etc.” So, let’s go through them and see how you do:"



http://www.christiananswers.net/q-comfort/heaven-goodenough.html

quiet dove
Jan 1st 2009, 08:44 PM
That is why Christ died in our stead, we were unable to keep God's commandments so the answer to the question "are we good enough"? No we are not, obviously, and that is why one must be in Christ Jesus, covered by His righteousness.

Of course, men must set aside their pride to accept that they are the sinners that God says they are.

markedward
Jan 1st 2009, 08:45 PM
I think this is probably the most basic question of Christianity's theology (I'm almost surprised you even asked it).

The answer is no, not a single one of us is "good enough" for heaven, by the sheer fact that we are all sinners. The reason I am slightly surprised this question would even be asked is because this is the first thing a person recognizes when they become a Christian.

You're bound to get only two answers in response to this question:

1. No, we are not good enough for heaven.
2. Yes, "we" are good enough for heaven (and by "we", I mean we when Christ stands in our place).

th1bill
Jan 1st 2009, 09:51 PM
... I, like Mark, am lost for words. Any student of the scriptures knows that none of us belong in Heaven, that's why it's called God's Grace.

timmyb
Jan 1st 2009, 10:07 PM
We are totally wicked in every way and we deserve hell.. if we as humans truly knew the depths of our depravity the questions about if we are good enough or can we be good enough.... we cheapen the reality of the gospel by thinking we are good enough... and even worse it's my belief that the reason that most of the church at large has no revelation of the gospel is that we somehow try to hold on to our pride in thinking that we can be righteous on our own so our focus is taken away from the righteousness we have in Christ which produces love in our hearts and instead our focus is put on the efforts of man which produces the fruit of the flesh...

mikebr
Jan 1st 2009, 11:02 PM
Is God wrong to allow something not good enough to make it into heaven to get there by any account?

mikebr
Jan 1st 2009, 11:07 PM
We are totally wicked in every way and we deserve hell.. if we as humans truly knew the depths of our depravity the questions about if we are good enough or can we be good enough.... we cheapen the reality of the gospel by thinking we are good enough... and even worse it's my belief that the reason that most of the church at large has no revelation of the gospel is that we somehow try to hold on to our pride in thinking that we can be righteous on our own so our focus is taken away from the righteousness we have in Christ which produces love in our hearts and instead our focus is put on the efforts of man which produces the fruit of the flesh...


I am not totally wicked. I have been crucified with Christ nevertheless I live, yet not I but Christ that lives within me and the life that I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God who loved me and gave His life for me. I am God's workmanship. I had a heart of Stone but He has given me a heart of flesh.

reformedct
Jan 1st 2009, 11:22 PM
... I, like Mark, am lost for words. Any student of the scriptures knows that none of us belong in Heaven, that's why it's called God's Grace.

Agreed! Praise God! Through one mans obedience many will be made righteous!:spin:

timmyb
Jan 1st 2009, 11:41 PM
I am not totally wicked. I have been crucified with Christ nevertheless I live, yet not I but Christ that lives within me and the life that I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God who loved me and gave His life for me. I am God's workmanship. I had a heart of Stone but He has given me a heart of flesh.


before you were, and to think you can accomplish righteousness apart from the spirit of God is to agree with flesh and wickedness...

Apart from God we are totally depraved and totally wicked in every way

mikebr
Jan 1st 2009, 11:57 PM
before you were, and to think you can accomplish righteousness apart from the spirit of God is to agree with flesh and wickedness...

Apart from God we are totally depraved and totally wicked in every way


Yeah but I ain't.:pp

timmyb
Jan 1st 2009, 11:58 PM
Yeah but I ain't.:pp

amen... but I think even to the saved person we need to know this reality everyday

mikebr
Jan 2nd 2009, 12:00 AM
amen... but I think even to the saved person we need to know this reality everyday
Too many are attempting to obtain it rather than living in it. I think its called religion.

The Parson
Jan 2nd 2009, 12:26 AM
Hey guys, don't give the man a hard time because of an elementary question!!! Quite frankly, all our questions should be elementary even though they sometimes result in complicated answers.

For instance, that simple question asked can result in a complex answer even though we are hoping to receive a simple one. Can I be good enough to enter heaven? No, I can't because of my inability to personally be righteous and live fully by God's perfect law. Why? Well because in my flesh there ain't one single good thing even though there is a want to do good but I can't find any way to do it in my flesh. Hey the good things I want to do, I don't do and the bad I don't want to do, that's exactly what I do. And if I do the things I don't want to do it's no longer me a doin it, it's the sin in me. That makes it a law of it's self inside me that when I could of done good there's evil right there with me.

Shoot, I love the Law of God. Well my inner man does anyway but theres a warfare going on inside me making me just as bound up as I can be and that's the warfare of good and evil. Man, what a rotten rascal I am. Who can get me out of this mess??? I thank God for my Lord Jesus Christ and His sacrifice for me!

Your servant folks... Romans 7... Anyone want to pick up where I just left off???

appletonbill
Jan 2nd 2009, 12:37 AM
Is God wrong to allow something not good enough to make it into heaven to get there by any account?

Absolutely not. It is impossible for God to be wrong, because God is immutable.

Sirus
Jan 2nd 2009, 12:50 AM
Too many are attempting to obtain it rather than living in it. I think its called religion.
Exactly!!! I think that is why we are to walk by faith not religion....
That is, believe God's promise is true even though we can't see it. Like Abraham believed his old body could produce seed because God said so, we are to believe our alive body is dead to sin because God said so. That's it people! Done! That's the whole gospel, not just the half that says we are forgiven. We are crucified because God said so.

If we look at others or our own experience we won't see it. We must rise above our experience to heavenly places in Christ Jesus who gave himself for us with us in him to die and be raised with him so that we could have all things pertaining to life and godliness. We are complete, and we are dead. Praise Jesus! Sin shall not have dominion over you! A dead man can't sin!

That which is by faith that we are to walk in has already been attained.

Phi 3:15-16 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

appletonbill
Jan 2nd 2009, 12:51 AM
Hey guys, don't give the man a hard time because of an elementary question!!! Quite frankly, all our questions should be elementary even though they sometimes result in complicated answers.

For instance, that simple question asked can result in a complex answer even though we are hoping to receive a simple one. Can I be good enough to enter heaven? No, I can't because of my inability to personally be righteous and live fully by God's perfect law. Why? Well because in my flesh there ain't one single good thing even though there is a want to do good but I can't find any way to do it in my flesh. Hey the good things I want to do, I don't do and the bad I don't want to do, that's exactly what I do. And if I do the things I don't want to do it's no longer me a doin it, it's the sin in me. That makes it a law of it's self inside me that when I could of done good there's evil right there with me.

Shoot, I love the Law of God. Well my inner man does anyway but theres a warfare going on inside me making me just as bound up as I can be and that's the warfare of good and evil. Man, what a rotten rascal I am. Who can get me out of this mess??? I thank God for my Lord Jesus Christ and His sacrifice for me!

Your servant folks... Romans 7... Anyone want to pick up where I just left off???

(Romans 7:6) But now,by dying to what once bound us,we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. (NIV)

timmyb
Jan 2nd 2009, 12:57 AM
But I'm about to say a seemingly blasphemous phrase.. It's not about going to heaven.... it's about coming to the father... John 14:6 Jesus says no man comes unto the Father but by me... and that's a reality for now... that's what salvation is a stepping stone to... not just to the problem of sin... but the reality that we can draw near to the Father in this life and get to know him now... going to heaven is a future reality... to know the benefits of salvation and the blood of Jesus in the now only is a benefit to what's coming up...

paidforinfull
Jan 2nd 2009, 01:03 AM
Of course we are good enough to go to heaven - Jesus died for that very reason - to make those who believe in Him sinless and more than good enough ;).

God bless.

th1bill
Jan 2nd 2009, 03:19 AM
Yeah but I ain't.
... And if you are serious you are calling God a liar and that leaves the rest of us nothing to do but to pray God's revelation upon you, for you are sinning.

th1bill
Jan 2nd 2009, 03:28 AM
amen... but I think even to the saved person we need to know this reality everyday
Rom 3:10 as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one;
... I'm sorry but the God inspired scriptures state otherwise. We no longer live in sin but we will slip. In other words, we no longer plan to sin but we will not be made perfect until we ascend into the presence of the Father. If we no longer sin and are perfect, a.k.a. sinless, then we never go one mile per hour over the speed limit, at any time and such. Many is the time that I have glanced down and caught myself unintentionally sinning and pulled my foot off the accelerator of my rig.

mikebr
Jan 2nd 2009, 03:37 AM
... And if you are serious you are calling God a liar and that leaves the rest of us nothing to do but to pray God's revelation upon you, for you are sinning.

Originally Posted by timmyb http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1926561#post1926561)

before you were, and to think you can accomplish righteousness apart from the spirit of God is to agree with flesh and wickedness...

Apart from God we are totally depraved and totally wicked in every way




Yeah but I ain't.:pp

Yeah but I ain't apart from God.

Now if you are saying that I am sinning by saying I am not apart from God then we have some major issues. According to scripture I am in Him and He is in me. That makes us together not apart.

But yes I probably am sinning and if you feel so led to pray God's revelation on me then have at it. I could use a little more revelation.

Diolectic
Jan 2nd 2009, 03:46 AM
... I, like Mark, am lost for words. Any student of the scriptures knows that none of us belong in Heaven, that's why it's called God's Grace.The embolden part of this quote caught my eye.

We as Christians, no longer deserve hell.
The soul that sins, it shall die (Eze 18:4,20).
I am crucified with Christ (Gal 2:20)
I died in Christ!
We acknowledge our death by baptism, which symbolizes our death and resurrection in Christ, not by the removing of outward filth of the flesh but by providing us with a good and clear conscience (inward cleanness and peace) before God through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ (1Peter 3:21).

Jesus was sacrificed so that the wrath for my sin could be passed by.
Jesus did suffer the wrath which was due to me, But, I am crucified with Christ (Gal 2:20) therefore, when we acknowledge our place in His death we also acknowledge our place in resurrection(Rom 6:3-6), only then can we be redeemed & cleansed with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot(1Peter 1:19, Titus 2:14) and freed from being under the law (Romans 6:14 & 7:4) as being under grace instead (Romans 6:14): acknowledging that He is representing us on that cross and we die through Christ and rise in newness of life in HIM(Romans 6:4 &11).
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him who believes in Jesus.
Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, who shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 4:5 But to him that works not, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Therefore, in conclusion, we do belong in heaven because of God's mercy and Grace from our faith & repentance.

Sirus
Jan 2nd 2009, 05:16 AM
amen... but I think even to the saved person we need to know this reality everydayChrist would much rather you know his reality and how he sees you everyday and see you walk by faith in it. You say we should know our experience, which.....we....already...know.....quite....well.. .thank you. Do we need a reminder? You deal with that flesh everyday don't ya? How much more reminder do you need?!!!?
Yet scripture clearly tells us to grow in the knowledge of Christ, that is, knowing who we are in Christ.

th1bill
Jan 2nd 2009, 07:15 AM
The embolden part of this quote caught my eye.

We as Christians, no longer deserve hell.
The soul that sins, it shall die (Eze 18:4,20).
I am crucified with Christ (Gal 2:20)
I died in Christ!
We acknowledge our death by baptism, which symbolizes our death and resurrection in Christ, not by the removing of outward filth of the flesh but by providing us with a good and clear conscience (inward cleanness and peace) before God through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ (1Peter 3:21).

Jesus was sacrificed so that the wrath for my sin could be passed by.
Jesus did suffer the wrath which was due to me, But, I am crucified with Christ (Gal 2:20) therefore, when we acknowledge our place in His death we also acknowledge our place in resurrection(Rom 6:3-6), only then can we be redeemed & cleansed with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot(1Peter 1:19, Titus 2:14) and freed from being under the law (Romans 6:14 & 7:4) as being under grace instead (Romans 6:14): acknowledging that He is representing us on that cross and we die through Christ and rise in newness of life in HIM(Romans 6:4 &11).
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him who believes in Jesus.
Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, who shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 4:5 But to him that works not, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Therefore, in conclusion, we do belong in heaven because of God's mercy and Grace from our faith & repentance.
... All of these scriptures are true. Now, Jesus, in the Old Testament gave the books of the Law for the purpose of teaching us God's standard and once we understand the standard there can not be a man alive that believes he deserves anything other than Hell. We are not saved because we deserve it, no, we are like a man I once ministered to that murdered a Police Officer at point blank range. Smiling Mike, we call him, deserved death but because he gave his life over to God, God has extended His grace to Mike and He has even seen to it that Mike has been paroled and lives a new life today. Neither I nor Mike nor you are able to claim enough merit to have earned Heaven. No, God has seen fit to forgive us and to impute the righteousness of His Son to our account, that we might be justified, not deserving. If we deserve Heaven we have earned it and no man can claim he is perfect, only God is perfect.

Diolectic
Jan 2nd 2009, 04:08 PM
... All of these scriptures are true. Now, Jesus, in the Old Testament gave the books of the Law for the purpose of teaching us God's standard and once we understand the standard there can not be a man alive that believes he deserves anything other than Hell. We are not saved because we deserve it, no, we are like a man I once ministered to that murdered a Police Officer at point blank range. Smiling Mike, we call him, deserved death but because he gave his life over to God, God has extended His grace to Mike and He has even seen to it that Mike has been paroled and lives a new life today. Neither I nor Mike nor you are able to claim enough merit to have earned Heaven. No, God has seen fit to forgive us and to impute the righteousness of His Son to our account, that we might be justified, not deserving. If we deserve Heaven we have earned it and no man can claim he is perfect, only God is perfect.

We do not deserve mercy and grace which gave us the benefit of belonging in heaven and not deserving hell.

Because of God's mercy & grace, HE has promised eternal life to those who believe.
Therefore, God owes eternal life to those who believe, because He had promise it and we had done that which is our duty.

timmyb
Jan 2nd 2009, 04:23 PM
Christ would much rather you know his reality and how he sees you everyday and see you walk by faith in it. You say we should know our experience, which.....we....already...know.....quite....well.. .thank you. Do we need a reminder? You deal with that flesh everyday don't ya? How much more reminder do you need?!!!?
Yet scripture clearly tells us to grow in the knowledge of Christ, that is, knowing who we are in Christ.

i see your point in that we are constantly aware of that reality... but here's what I struggle with now.. when I'm riding high with God, I have this feeling that I can do no wrong only to come down hard and stumble and thus almost condemn myself... I am suddenly aware of my depravity... I'm saying that even the holiest man on the planet must be aware of his depravity apart from God... any time a man even hints at himself that he can be righteous apart from God is the time he falls...

So while we are growing in Christ there has to be a constant awareness of dependence and a constant reminder that it's not our righteousness that's being revealed in us... it's God's righteousness and it always will be his righteousness

Diolectic
Jan 2nd 2009, 05:16 PM
i see your point in that we are constantly aware of that reality... but here's what I struggle with now.. When I'm riding high with God, I have this feeling that I can do no wrong only to come down hard and stumble and thus almost condemn myself... I am suddenly aware of my depravity... I'm saying that even the holiest man on the planet must be aware of his depravity apart from God... any time a man even hints at himself that he can be righteous apart from God is the time he falls...Romans 7:20 Now if I habitually do what I actually prefer not to do, it is no longer I who am doing it, but my own fleshly desires that dwell within me.
Romans 7:5&17
21 I find then a standard, that when I desire to do good, corruption (inability & weakness of the flesh) is right there with me.
Galatians 5:17b
The "evil" is not "in" him, but with him as being the flesh.

Don't think yourself to be any different than Adam before He sinned, but understand all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world (1John 2:16)
This is the very same reason that Adam & Eve sinned.

timmyb
Jan 2nd 2009, 05:33 PM
Romans 7:20 Now if I habitually do what I actually prefer not to do, it is no longer I who am doing it, but my own fleshly desires that dwell within me.
Romans 7:5&17
21 I find then a standard, that when I desire to do good, corruption (inability & weakness of the flesh) is right there with me.
Galatians 5:17b
The "evil" is not "in" him, but with him as being the flesh.

Don't think yourself to be any different than Adam before He sinned, but understand all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world (1John 2:16)
This is the very same reason that Adam & Eve sinned.

but what about the war IN his members one of wickedness and one of righteousness in Romans 7... there is a war on the inside of us between our flesh and the Holy Spirit... I am absolutely no different... Sin in me is a result of the real problem, that I do not know God and have little confidence that his leadership is the path to true joy...

appletonbill
Jan 2nd 2009, 05:39 PM
But I'm about to say a seemingly blasphemous phrase.. It's not about going to heaven.... it's about coming to the father... John 14:6 Jesus says no man comes unto the Father but by me... and that's a reality for now... that's what salvation is a stepping stone to... not just to the problem of sin... but the reality that we can draw near to the Father in this life and get to know him now... going to heaven is a future reality... to know the benefits of salvation and the blood of Jesus in the now only is a benefit to what's coming up...

You are right, and I don't think what you said is blasphemous. It is about being with our Heavenly Father, and not about the destination called Heaven.

Diolectic
Jan 2nd 2009, 06:08 PM
but what about the war IN his members one of wickedness and one of righteousness in Romans 7... there is a war on the inside of us between our flesh and the Holy Spirit... I am absolutely no different... Sin in me is a result of the real problem, that I do not know God and have little confidence that his leadership is the path to true joy...23 But now, I see different set of requirements, and they are in my members, warring against the standard of my moral conscience, and bringing me into captivity to those requirements of my own fleshly desires which are in my members.
Romans 7:14, Galatians 5:17b

Spiritual Death is the effect of sin according to Romans 6:23.
Spiritual Death is a severed relationship from God just as physical death is the separation of the spirit from the body.
The ''law of sin'' in Romans 7:23 is the demands of our own fleshly desires & affections against known law that bring us in opposition to God which separates us from Him.
The ''law of sin'' includes the inability of the flesh to deny its own fleshly desires apart from the Spirit & faith in HIM.
Remember this, for it is important to remember!

This concludes that which is IN our ''members'' (v.23) are the unlawful affections &/or desires which brings about spiritual death.

25 With the mind, which is my actual being, I truly agree to the righteous requirements of the Law of God, and with the flesh, I serve the requirements of my own fleshly desires, which is death.
Example:
You love sin & you also like doing righteousness (good).
You don't know how to stop sinning.
Sure, you may not do sinful things, but you keep going back to your favorite sins; you don't even know why you should stop those certain sins except that the law told you to.

You don't have anything else that you like to enjoy in order to stop.

The only way you can truly stop is if your affection is turned away from your favorite sins & onto something else.

The cure is to persuade you that you are dying from that which you are doing and that those things which you do are condemning you.
You will see that they offend the One who will keep you alive from being killed by that which you were doing.
With that knowledge, you will be able to quit your sins, because you will hate what they do to you.
...So then with the mind you hate the sins; but with the flesh you still like the pleasure they give you.(v.25)

Sirus
Jan 2nd 2009, 06:23 PM
i see your point in that we are constantly aware of that reality... but here's what I struggle with now.. when I'm riding high with God, I have this feeling that I can do no wrong only to come down hard and stumble and thus almost condemn myself... I am suddenly aware of my depravity... I'm saying that even the holiest man on the planet must be aware of his depravity apart from God... any time a man even hints at himself that he can be righteous apart from God is the time he falls... ....but the question is not
-are you apart from God?
The question is
-are you good enough for heaven?

Believers are, in God's reality, good enough for heaven

KJV Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

ESV Col 1:12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in light.

Go read all of that passage and actually Colossians 1-3 and then try and say we are not good enough for heaven.

What I struggle with here is why you would think anyone would think they can do no wrong? Why suddenly aware of some 'depravity' as if you are all of a sudden no longer 'in Christ' and 'apart from God', as if His right arm of salvation is something precarious?



So while we are growing in Christ there has to be a constant awareness of dependence and a constant reminder that it's not our righteousness that's being revealed in us... it's God's righteousness and it always will be his righteousness
Our constant awareness is the Spirit joined to our spirit and our constant reminder is our flesh. No one has claimed we ignore these. The awareness and reminder takes no effort. It IS a constant reality.

Experiential righteousness is fruit of the Spirit. True, it would not exist without Christ in us. We do have to allow this and scripture is very clear we will be rewarded for doing so. So yes, of course only positional righteousness saves us.

Gregg
Jan 2nd 2009, 06:32 PM
I found this link which seems awfully scary... Seems very harsh, but real.






http://www.christiananswers.net/q-comfort/heaven-goodenough.html


Am I good enough to go to Heaven? Hmmmm.....

I am now!

You see, someone loved me enough to pay for all of my sins. He did this before I met him. He knew I was coming. To him all of my sins were future sins. Now I want to honor him by not doing things that he had to pay for. I am not strong enough to do this by myself, so he helps me. He wants me to help others with loving kindness and action. I can't understand it all, but somehow....I am now.

shawn_2828
Feb 10th 2009, 02:43 AM
I found this link which seems awfully scary... Seems very harsh, but real.






http://www.christiananswers.net/q-comfort/heaven-goodenough.html

Honestly none of us is good enough for heaven, that is why Jesus died in our place. Because if he didn't we would have no access to heaven. Because our fellowship was broken.

So, are we good enough, no, but thanks for Jesus, he love us enough to want us there with him forever.