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vinsight4u8
Jan 2nd 2009, 10:26 AM
So when is the rapture? Well, consider what is happening as to the speech that is being repeated over and over over - those resting not four beasts.

v7
"...they rest not day and night, saying....Lord...which...is to come."

Is to come - not Hey, glad you just came back.

Jesus clear at the end of the chapter is yet to come.


We take v1 and realize that this chapter begins a new section -

"After this I looked..."
//As in leave the writing about the seven churches part behind and John now begins to see something else start.

Rev. 1:10
"I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet."

r
4:1
"After this I looked...and the first voice...was as it were of a trumpet..."

John hears the very same voice that he had been hearing earlier.

It tells him>

"Come up hither, and I will shew thee things..."

Not > Come right now and sit down at the marriage supper of the Lamb.

v2
"And immediately I was in the spirit..."


Jesus will descend at the time of the rapture. Here John only goes up to heaven. John never mentions any other people of the dead of the just being raised or such - because those things did not happen at this point.

John never even tells of any chaos on the earth.

John writes this>

"And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices..."

Now look at how the scene changes before the seven trumpets can begin.

8:5
"...there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake."

See it? - An earthquake part has now been added.

v6
"And the seven angels prepared themselves to sound."

Rev. 11:13
"And the same hour was there a great earthquake..."

That third woe - 7th trumpet was to come quickly.

So did you see how that before the plagues on the earth can begin - a type of announcement must go out first - or that list - as in must have a plague added to it? This plague informs us as to how long the time of all of the judgment time must last.



Take the end of Rev. 11 and see this same pattern?
"And the temple of God was opened in heaven...there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail."

This now just informed the reader how long the next set of plagues will last - till the time of an earthquake and great hail.
So till the time of Rev. 16:19-21<
(the end of the seven vials of God's wrath)


Between the time of the last trumpet and the first vial - the temple in heaven will open.

Also, remember that the four beasts are continually speaking as to a phrase about He is to come - yet after the 6th seal - John couldn't hear them anymore - for there is silence in heaven.

7th trumpet - great earthquake (third woe)

temple in heaven opens

four beasts have already gone silent


next list of punishments goes out
first vial begins
last vial brings - great hail

vinsight4u8
Jan 2nd 2009, 11:16 AM
I want to key in that the trumpets come in parts, but the vials will be things that are in full.

trumpets
Rev. 8:8
"...the third part of the sea became blood."
v9
"...third part of the creatures...third part of the ships..."


vials
16:3
"...poured upon the sea,; and it became as the blood...and every living soul died in the sea."
v10
"...kingdom full of darkness..."


I want us to look at how the trumpets come in less than full measure judgments. This is important as Israel cannot be punished by full measure stuff.


Isaiah 65:6-7
"Behold, [it is] written before me: I will not keep silence, but will recompense...into their bosom."
"Your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers...I will measure their former work into their bosom."


Psalm 73:10
"Therefore his people return hither: and waters of a full cup are wrung out to them."


Psalm 75:8
"For in the hand of the LORD [there is] a cup...it is full of mixture...but the dregs thereof, all the wicked of the earth shall wring...and drink [them."


Jeremiah 4:27
"For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end."

5:18
"Nevertheless, in those days, saith the LORD, I will not make a full end with you."


30:11
"...saith the LORD...I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure..."

46:28
"...I will not make a full end of thee, but correct thee in measure..."

10:24
"O LORD, correct me, but with judgment: not in thine anger, lest thou bring me to nothing."


Several places in the OT show that in the endtimes God will repent of some of the judgment time that was to come on Israel. He will call back some of that time. In Revelation - we find a part as to the seven thunders is sealed up. This is because here is the point where God is repenting of some of that evil time that was to come on Israel.



Deuteronomy 32:36
"For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants..."
v43
"Rejoice, O ye nations [with] his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, [and] to his people."


Rev. 19:1
"And...I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying...Salvation..."
v2
"...for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth...avenged the blood of his servants..."

Salvation time!
Take down mystery, Babylon that corrupted the earth time!


Salvation<

Hebrews 9:28
"...Christ...appear...unto salvation."

1Thss. 5:9
"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ."

See the church is appointed to be here on the earth until it is time to take down mystery, Babylon?
salvation comes


2 Peter 3:15
"And account [that] the longsuffering of our LORD [is] salvation;..."
v9"
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise...but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
v10
"But the day of the Lord will come..."

vinsight4u8
Jan 2nd 2009, 11:40 AM
So when the day of the Lord comes is when it is time for salvation on the church - and mercy on Israel - and the taking down of mystery, Babylon.

The rapture is not till the day of the Lord begins - So what does the Bible tell us to expect when that happens?


Joel 1:15
"Alas! for the day! for the day of the LORD...as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come."
///not the beast is running around destroying everything then


Isaiah 13:6
"Howl..for the day of the LORD...it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty."


Do you realize that God won't begin to destroy till the 7th trumpet?

v15
"And the seventh angel sounded..."
v18
"And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come...reward unto thy servants..."
Rev. 11


Luke 14:14
"And thou shalt be blessed;..recompensed...at the resurrection of the just."

2 Timothy 4:8
"Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge shall give me at that day; and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing."


See why Jesus will not come get the church till the 7th trumpet?


The church is not rewarded till He appears in the 7th trumpet time.

Gods Child
Jan 2nd 2009, 12:29 PM
Rev 4 in no way depicts a resurrection of John or anyone else.

A resurrection as stated within scripture is when a person goes from mortal to immortality. In the resurrection the person goes from corruptible to incorruptible.

John never put on immortality as in a resurrection. Since John returned to the flesh, Rev 4 is not a depiction of a resurrection (rapture)

John was not raptured (resurrected) in Rev 4 and John never mentions or hints that anyone else would be raptured at that time.

The purpose for John to Come up hither was told in verse Rev 1:19, which was to; 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
John saw the visions and came back to the flesh to write them. He was not resurrected and Rev 4 shows no resurrection at that time.


4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Lk 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

1 Cor 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

vinsight4u8
Jan 2nd 2009, 12:43 PM
Hi

That is exactly what I'm trying to show as to the start of Rev. 4. Heck, if John was raptured as some try to claim - they why later did he almost worship an angel?


My goal is to show people that the Lord is not coming back till the 7th trumpet - day of the Lord starts.
It is time then to reward the church.

Another part - in Rev. 11:18 shows that it is also time to judge the dead.
2 Timothy 4:1 shows that this is when Jesus will appear.

The New Testament has many verses speaking as to how the church waits for His appearing.


My goal is then to help people see that this 7th trumpet time should be placed within the 6th seal.

;for the 6th seal also shows that the day of the Lord events begin in it

such as - the wicked go hide in the rocks

see Isaiah 2:10-12


Both the 6th seal and the 7th trumpet tell us they are the place where the wrath of God starts.
So - we need to bring them together.


Malachi 3:2
"But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth?..."


6th seal
Rev. 6:17
"For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall stand when he appeareth?"




Colossians 3:4
"When Christ..shall appear ye also shall appear with him in glory."

vinsight4u8
Jan 2nd 2009, 01:04 PM
Hi God's Child

You told us the rapture is not at the start of Rev. 4. I certainly agree with that. Now, where would you say that it does occur?

When the Rev. 11 angel begins to tell about the two witnesses - he seems to place their story as in two hours - or sections of time.

2nd woe - they are slain 6th trumpet = great tribulation time
the wicked send gifts to each other to celebrate
but sudden destruction will come

3rd woe - same hour as a great earthquake - the two witnesses get life in themselves from God

life in themselves


John 5:28
"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice."
v29
"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life..."


Acts 24:14
"And have hope toward God,...there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.'


Galatians 6:8
"For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting."



Romans 8:11
"But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you."


Rev. 11:1
"And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them..."

=
the time of the resurrection of the just

third woe - great earthquake hour
(7th trumpet)

Gods Child
Jan 3rd 2009, 04:20 AM
Hi God's Child

You told us the rapture is not at the start of Rev. 4. I certainly agree with that. Now, where would you say that it does occur?

Scripture tells us when it happens; It is the 7th trumpet which is depicted between Rev 11 & 14.


Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

The only time we are shown as Jesus coming in the clouds to reap his from the earth is at the 7th trumpet (Rev 14).

vinsight4u8
Jan 3rd 2009, 12:03 PM
So would you also place that as when the two witnesses rise from the dead?

at the same hour - as the third woe earthquake


Rev. 11


behold the third woe
cometh quickly

but the angel had already told John wha it would be

"And the same hour was there a great earthquake..."

As in to understand when they rise - recognize that it won't happen till the great earthquake part comes as the third woe.

Raybob
Jan 3rd 2009, 06:38 PM
Scripture tells us when it happens; It is the 7th trumpet which is depicted between Rev 11 & 14.


Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

The only time we are shown as Jesus coming in the clouds to reap his from the earth is at the 7th trumpet (Rev 14).

This is how we know Revelation is NOT chronological in order. We see His return in Rev. 11. We don't see it in Rev 12 or 13 but see other events in a different period of time. We see His return in Rev. 14 and in Rev. 6 and again in Rev. 19.

Rev 19:7-9 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. (8) And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. (9) And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

And, if you will receive it, we see Christ's return also in Rev. 20.

Rev 20:11-12 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. (12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Raybob

sherryt
Jan 4th 2009, 06:20 AM
I agree that it occurs at the 7th trumpet. After this God is no longer protecting us as we are not mentioned---I believe because we are not here. Revelations is a hard read. None of us know absolutely for sure and will not until the time is at hand. So in the mean time, I will continue to live my life as sinless as possible, continually repenting, asking forgiveness for those sins that do slip through, and try to bring all i can to Christ. :)