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Firstfruits
Jan 3rd 2009, 02:01 PM
According to the following scriptures the law is made for all/everything that is contrary to Sound Doctrine:

1 Tim 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=54&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
1 Tim 1:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=54&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
1 Tim 1:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=54&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

What therefore is Sound Doctrine?

Is the doctrine we have received and believe, Sound Doctrine?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

ProjectPeter
Jan 3rd 2009, 02:46 PM
Enter the next "pastoral" letter. :)

Titus 2

1 But as for you, speak the things which are fitting for sound doctrine.
2 Older men are to be temperate, dignified, sensible, sound in faith, in love, in perseverance.
3 Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips, nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good,
4 that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children,
5 to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be dishonored.
6 Likewise urge the young men to be sensible;
7 in all things show yourself to be an example of good deeds, with purity in doctrine, dignified,
8 sound in speech which is beyond reproach, in order that the opponent may be put to shame, having nothing bad to say about us.
9 Urge bondslaves to be subject to their own masters in everything, to be well-pleasing, not argumentative,
10 not pilfering, but showing all good faith that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in every respect.
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,
13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus;
14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.
15 ¶These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you.

Titus 3

1 Remind them to be subject to rulers, to authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good deed,
2 to malign no one, to be uncontentious, gentle, showing every consideration for all men.
3 For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.
4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared,
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 that being justified by His grace we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
8 This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that those who have believed God may be careful to engage in good deeds. These things are good and profitable for men.
9 But shun foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law; for they are unprofitable and worthless.
10 Reject a factious man after a first and second warning,
11 knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.
12 ¶When I send Artemas or Tychicus to you, make every effort to come to me at Nicopolis, for I have decided to spend the winter there.
13 Diligently help Zenas the lawyer and Apollos on their way so that nothing is lacking for them.
14 And let our people also learn to engage in good deeds to meet pressing needs, that they may not be unfruitful.
15 ¶All who are with me greet you. Greet those who love us in the faith. ¶Grace be with you all.

Firstfruits
Jan 3rd 2009, 03:17 PM
Enter the next "pastoral" letter. :)

Titus 2

1 But as for you, speak the things which are fitting for sound doctrine.
2 Older men are to be temperate, dignified, sensible, sound in faith, in love, in perseverance.
3 Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips, nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good,
4 that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children,
5 to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be dishonored.
6 Likewise urge the young men to be sensible;
7 in all things show yourself to be an example of good deeds, with purity in doctrine, dignified,
8 sound in speech which is beyond reproach, in order that the opponent may be put to shame, having nothing bad to say about us.
9 Urge bondslaves to be subject to their own masters in everything, to be well-pleasing, not argumentative,
10 not pilfering, but showing all good faith that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in every respect.
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,
13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus;
14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.
15 ¶These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you.

Titus 3

1 Remind them to be subject to rulers, to authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good deed,
2 to malign no one, to be uncontentious, gentle, showing every consideration for all men.
3 For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.
4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared,
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 that being justified by His grace we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
8 This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that those who have believed God may be careful to engage in good deeds. These things are good and profitable for men.
9 But shun foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law; for they are unprofitable and worthless.
10 Reject a factious man after a first and second warning,
11 knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.
12 ¶When I send Artemas or Tychicus to you, make every effort to come to me at Nicopolis, for I have decided to spend the winter there.
13 Diligently help Zenas the lawyer and Apollos on their way so that nothing is lacking for them.
14 And let our people also learn to engage in good deeds to meet pressing needs, that they may not be unfruitful.
15 ¶All who are with me greet you. Greet those who love us in the faith. ¶Grace be with you all.

Thanks ProjectPeter,

We should not go wrong there, if we apply or adhere to Sound Doctine.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

ProjectPeter
Jan 3rd 2009, 03:20 PM
Yeah... it is pretty simple really. :)

Firstfruits
Jan 3rd 2009, 03:31 PM
Yeah... it is pretty simple really. :)

Yet not everyone will abide;

1 Tim 6:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=54&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
1 Tim 6:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=54&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, wHereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

2 Tim 4:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=55&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

God bless you!

Firstfruits

ProjectPeter
Jan 3rd 2009, 03:51 PM
Tis the reality of things... sadly.

Firstfruits
Jan 3rd 2009, 04:05 PM
Tis the reality of things... sadly.

2 Tim 1:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=55&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

Many seem to be unaware of the dangers of not abiding in Sound Doctrine.

Gal 1:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

God bless!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jan 4th 2009, 12:10 PM
Why is the law not made for the righteous?

How do we obtain the righteousness that exculdes us from the law that is made for the ungodly or unrighteous?

1 Tim 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=54&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jan 5th 2009, 12:16 PM
If we are saved, can we fail to acknowledge that we are righteous?

Firstfruits

Yukerboy
Jan 5th 2009, 01:33 PM
If we are saved, can we fail to acknowledge that we are righteous?

Firstfruits

Anyone who states they are born again yet say they sin have failed to acknowledge they are made righteous.

Firstfruits
Jan 5th 2009, 01:48 PM
Anyone who states they are born again yet say they sin have failed to acknowledge they are made righteous.

What does it mean to be born again in order to be made righteous?

Firstfruits

Yukerboy
Jan 5th 2009, 02:15 PM
What does it mean to be born again in order to be made righteous?

Firstfruits

Not in order to, but a characteristic of...

Those who are born again are made righteous. We don't become born again to become righteous, but we are made righteous because we are born again.

Firstfruits
Jan 5th 2009, 02:35 PM
Not in order to, but a characteristic of...

Those who are born again are made righteous. We don't become born again to become righteous, but we are made righteous because we are born again.

But all that is by faith in Christ, so if two come to Christ and one does not endure to the end was the one that did not endure always contrary to the Doctrine of Christ?

Firstfruits

Yukerboy
Jan 5th 2009, 04:28 PM
But all that is by faith in Christ, so if two come to Christ and one does not endure to the end was the one that did not endure always contrary to the Doctrine of Christ?

Firstfruits

Define the Doctrine of Christ.

The one that does not endure to the end was not born again. He is the seed on the rocky soil.

God makes the born again stand firm to the end (1 Corinthians 1:21)

Firstfruits
Jan 5th 2009, 04:34 PM
Define the Doctrine of Christ.

The one that does not endure to the end was not born again. He is the seed on the rocky soil.

God makes the born again stand firm to the end (1 Corinthians 1:21)

That which Christ and his Disciples have given us according to the Gospel.

What does it matter if you do not endure to the end if those that are born again cannot sin?

Did the one that did not endure, not begin their journey with God, and be known of God?

Firstfruits

Yukerboy
Jan 5th 2009, 09:29 PM
That which Christ and his Disciples have given us according to the Gospel.

What does it matter if you do not endure to the end if those that are born again cannot sin?

Did the one that did not endure, not begin their journey with God, and be known of God?

Firstfruits

Christ will tell the one who does not endure "I never knew you", not that "I knew you once but not anymore."

Those who are born again that cannot sin, they will endure to the end.

BCF
Jan 5th 2009, 09:37 PM
Christ will tell the one who does not endure "I never knew you", not that "I knew you once but not anymore."

Those who are born again that cannot sin, they will endure to the end.

So the ones who are born again, and cannot sin...can't ever do anything wrong in the eyes of God?

HisLeast
Jan 5th 2009, 09:42 PM
Christ will tell the one who does not endure "I never knew you", not that "I knew you once but not anymore."

Those who are born again that cannot sin, they will endure to the end.

JUST as I thought. I AM going to hell.

Yukerboy
Jan 5th 2009, 09:52 PM
So the ones who are born again, and cannot sin...can't ever do anything wrong in the eyes of God?

Correct!


JUST as I thought. I AM going to hell.

If you are born again, you cannot sin and will endure to the end...even if you believe you sin.

HisLeast
Jan 5th 2009, 10:06 PM
If you are born again, you cannot sin and will endure to the end...even if you believe you sin.

I sinned just this morning. Its not even a question on if I did or didn't. I did. As plain as blue skies over Bermuda.

Yukerboy
Jan 5th 2009, 10:10 PM
I sinned just this morning. Its not even a question on if I did or didn't. I did. As plain as blue skies over Bermuda.

No, you believe you sinned...or you are not born again. Being that you are here and I have read your posts in passing, my guess is the former.

But, who am I to judge?

barnettj
Jan 5th 2009, 10:54 PM
Why is the law not made for the righteous?

How do we obtain the righteousness that exculdes us from the law that is made for the ungodly or unrighteous?

1 Tim 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=54&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

Firstfruits
Galatians 3:24



24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.


The Law revealed the sin that is in us. None of us can live by the law on our own. That's why we need Christ. Christ is our righteousness. God wants His law written in our hearts. He wants us to have His nature; not just follow a set of rules. If we are doing or not doing things just because we are afraid we will get in trouble, that's not really a change of heart.

HisLeast
Jan 5th 2009, 11:30 PM
No, you believe you sinned...or you are not born again. Being that you are here and I have read your posts in passing, my guess is the former.

But, who am I to judge?

I only "believed" I sinned? Sorry friend, I'm not understanding that at all.

BCF
Jan 5th 2009, 11:50 PM
Galatians 3:24



24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.


The Law revealed the sin that is in us. None of us can live by the law on our own. That's why we need Christ. Christ is our righteousness. God wants His law written in our hearts. He wants us to have His nature; not just follow a set of rules. If we are doing or not doing things just because we are afraid we will get in trouble, that's not really a change of heart.

Okay...and I will ask you the same thing that I have asked over on another thread where this topic has come up, and nobody has answered me as of yet.

What is the law that God has written on our hearts, which gives us this changed of heart?

mizzdy
Jan 6th 2009, 12:03 AM
Galatians 3:24



24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.


The Law revealed the sin that is in us. None of us can live by the law on our own. That's why we need Christ. Christ is our righteousness. God wants His law written in our hearts. He wants us to have His nature; not just follow a set of rules. If we are doing or not doing things just because we are afraid we will get in trouble, that's not really a change of heart.

Tis so true there must be that change of heart.

TrustingFollower
Jan 6th 2009, 01:32 AM
If we are saved, can we fail to acknowledge that we are righteous?

Firstfruits
Do we have any righteousness of our own or are we made partakers of Jesus' righteousness through our faith in him?

Firstfruits
Jan 6th 2009, 09:13 AM
Do we have any righteousness of our own or are we made partakers of Jesus' righteousness through our faith in him?

We can claim to be saved by Gods grace which is Gods gift, Righteousness is also Gods gift therefore the application is the same.

Rom 5:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Unless we do not accept Gods gifts.

Do we believe that by believeing in Christ that we are made righteous?

Why are we told to show the fruit of righteousness?

How do we live unto righteousness?

How do we sow righteousness?

If we are not righteous how do we explain the following?

1 Jn 2:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1 Jn 3:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

I hope that answers your question.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Yukerboy
Jan 6th 2009, 11:54 AM
I only "believed" I sinned? Sorry friend, I'm not understanding that at all.

The born again cannot sin (1 John 3:9)

So, while you believe you did sin, you did not, for I believe you are born again.

I could be wrong, meaning you are not born again, and therefore did sin, but I doubt I am wrong.

Firstfruits
Jan 6th 2009, 03:35 PM
The born again cannot sin (1 John 3:9)

So, while you believe you did sin, you did not, for I believe you are born again.

I could be wrong, meaning you are not born again, and therefore did sin, but I doubt I am wrong.

To whom do the following reffer, is it believer or unbeliever?


Mt 18:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Mt 18:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!


Lk 17:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!

Firstfruits

Yukerboy
Jan 6th 2009, 07:30 PM
To whom do the following reffer, is it believer or unbeliever?


Mt 18:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Mt 18:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!


Lk 17:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!

Firstfruits

I would say an unbeliever.

Firstfruits
Jan 6th 2009, 08:23 PM
I would say an unbeliever.

Jesus said those that cause those that believe in him to offend/sin.

Mt 18:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Mt 18:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!


Lk 17:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!

Thanks Yukerboy,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Yukerboy
Jan 6th 2009, 10:05 PM
Jesus said those that cause those that believe in him to offend/sin.

Mt 18:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Mt 18:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!


Lk 17:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!

Thanks Yukerboy,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Thought you meant the ones who the offenses come from. He would be an unbeliever.

As for the ones that are caused to offend, yes, they would be believers, and no, they would not sin if they are born again.

TrustingFollower
Jan 6th 2009, 10:30 PM
Thought you meant the ones who the offenses come from. He would be an unbeliever.

As for the ones that are caused to offend, yes, they would be believers, and no, they would not sin if they are born again.
Wouldn't falling away from believing in Christ be a sin by someone that was born again. This is the extreme case of sin or would it be better to say it would be sin onto death.

Yukerboy
Jan 6th 2009, 10:45 PM
Wouldn't falling away from believing in Christ be a sin by someone that was born again. This is the extreme case of sin or would it be better to say it would be sin onto death.

Yes it would be a sin, if it were possible.

However, those who are born again are


Made to stand firm in Christ by God (2 Corinthians 1:21)
Are kept strong to the end by Christ (1 Corinthians 1:8)
Are given endurance from God (Romans 15:5)
belong to God’s family forever (John 8:35, Romans 8:14)
Stand firm to the end (Matthew 24:13, Mark 13:13)
If someone who is born again does not stand firm to the end, then God failed and broke the Scriptures. I cannot accept that. My God will never fail. Does yours?

ProjectPeter
Jan 6th 2009, 11:24 PM
Yes it would be a sin, if it were possible.

However, those who are born again are


Made to stand firm in Christ by God (2 Corinthians 1:21)
Are kept strong to the end by Christ (1 Corinthians 1:8)
Are given endurance from God (Romans 15:5)
belong to God’s family forever (John 8:35, Romans 8:14)
Stand firm to the end (Matthew 24:13, Mark 13:13)
If someone who is born again does not stand firm to the end, then God failed and broke the Scriptures. I cannot accept that. My God will never fail. Does yours?
Well... I could ask you do you think you are God? I mean hey... your failure is your failure and not God's failure. Not sure how you draw such a conclusion but I figure it a dangerous bit of logic there. ;)

Yukerboy
Jan 7th 2009, 12:02 AM
Well... I could ask you do you think you are God? I mean hey... your failure is your failure and not God's failure. Not sure how you draw such a conclusion but I figure it a dangerous bit of logic there. ;)

Man: God, save me.
God: Man, only if you endure to the end will you be saved.
Man: How can I endure to the end?
God: If you are born again, I will make you endure to the end.
Man: Oops, I didn't endure to the end.
God: I know, I lied.

That is not my God.

ProjectPeter
Jan 7th 2009, 12:07 AM
Man: God, save me.
God: Man, only if you endure to the end will you be saved.
Man: How can I endure to the end?
God: If you are born again, I will make you endure to the end.
Man: Oops, I didn't endure to the end.
God: I know, I lied.

That is not my God.
Uh... you keep saying that. Is your God the God of the Scripture? If so... then point all this out in Scripture and not some "man/God" made up something or other. ;)

Take for example your little God saying that you say your God says. "I'll make you endure to the end." Where, in Scripture, is that actually written?

Yukerboy
Jan 7th 2009, 12:18 AM
Uh... you keep saying that. Is your God the God of the Scripture? If so... then point all this out in Scripture and not some "man/God" made up something or other. ;)

Take for example your little God saying that you say your God says. "I'll make you endure to the end." Where, in Scripture, is that actually written?

1 Corinthians 1:8 He (God) will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

ProjectPeter
Jan 7th 2009, 12:38 AM
1 Corinthians 1:8 He (God) will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Those awaiting eagerly the coming of the Lord... doesn't say that God MAKES them endure. Says He will... large difference because all through that Paul explains who he "will" keep strong. ;) God is faithful even when man isn't.

TrustingFollower
Jan 7th 2009, 01:26 AM
Yes it would be a sin, if it were possible.

However, those who are born again are


Made to stand firm in Christ by God (2 Corinthians 1:21)
Are kept strong to the end by Christ (1 Corinthians 1:8)
Are given endurance from God (Romans 15:5)
belong to God’s family forever (John 8:35, Romans 8:14)
Stand firm to the end (Matthew 24:13, Mark 13:13)

If someone who is born again does not stand firm to the end, then God failed and broke the Scriptures. I cannot accept that. My God will never fail. Does yours?
Why would you want to blaspheme God in this way. Are you testing God by this? We both claim to be true followers of the one true living God so why display this kind of angst toward an brother in Christ. This approaches being in sin by displaying anger.

God gave the warning to endure to the end. Warnings are given to give us the knowledge of the possibility of being able to fall short of the outcome. If we could not fall short and lose the prize then there would not be any warning against it in the scriptures.

Firstfruits
Jan 7th 2009, 08:46 AM
Why should we fear if we can never fall or come short?

Heb 4:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

Rom 3:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

God bless You!

Firstfruits

Yukerboy
Jan 7th 2009, 07:35 PM
Why should we fear if we can never fall or come short?

Heb 4:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

Rom 3:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

God bless You!

Firstfruits

Romans 3:23 first. There are no buts here. All have sinned. All have come short of the glory of God.

Now, why should we fear if we can never fall?

To make our election sure. Even Paul was afraid that he could be disqualified. That means Paul was afraid that he could fall.

No one who is born again KNOWS they are born again. They believe they are, but until they endure to the end, they don't KNOW they are.

BCF
Jan 7th 2009, 07:50 PM
No one who is born again KNOWS they are born again. They believe they are, but until they endure to the end, they don't KNOW they are.

My brother...call me stupid if you like, but what in the world are you saying here?

If one does not know that they are born again. How is one suppose to know that they would need to endure to the end, if they don't know what they are enduring to the end for, because they don't know they are born again?:B

Man.......talk about giving yourself a headache:confused

God Bless,

Dave

TrustingFollower
Jan 7th 2009, 08:07 PM
Romans 3:23 first. There are no buts here. All have sinned. All have come short of the glory of God.

Now, why should we fear if we can never fall?

To make our election sure. Even Paul was afraid that he could be disqualified. That means Paul was afraid that he could fall.

No one who is born again KNOWS they are born again. They believe they are, but until they endure to the end, they don't KNOW they are.
Man you are talking in circles around yourself now. Just a few posts ago you were saying you are unable to sin, now you are saying you don't even know if you are born again? Makes no sense dude.

Emanate
Jan 7th 2009, 08:12 PM
No one who is born again KNOWS they are born again. They believe they are, but until they endure to the end, they don't KNOW they are.


Ah, the heavenly lottery. At least there is no assurance in the promises of God.:o

Firstfruits
Jan 7th 2009, 08:30 PM
Romans 3:23 first. There are no buts here. All have sinned. All have come short of the glory of God.

Now, why should we fear if we can never fall?

To make our election sure. Even Paul was afraid that he could be disqualified. That means Paul was afraid that he could fall.

No one who is born again KNOWS they are born again. They believe they are, but until they endure to the end, they don't KNOW they are.

Do you therefore not know that the scripture have told us who are children of God? How can you say you do not know?

1 John 5:1-5

1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Have you not received Christ?

Jn 1:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Jn 1:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

1 Pet 1:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=60&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

We are told, but do we believe?

God bless You!

Firstfruits

Yukerboy
Jan 7th 2009, 10:02 PM
Do you therefore not know that the scripture have told us who are children of God? How can you say you do not know?

1 John 5:1-5

1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Have you not received Christ?

Jn 1:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Jn 1:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

1 Pet 1:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=60&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

We are told, but do we believe?

God bless You!

Firstfruits

Yes, we told who the born again are. We know their characteristics.

However, the born again endure to the end and no one on this board has done that.

When Paul wrote the Epistles, he had not endured to the end either.

Firstfruits
Jan 8th 2009, 08:49 AM
Yes, we told who the born again are. We know their characteristics.

However, the born again endure to the end and no one on this board has done that.

When Paul wrote the Epistles, he had not endured to the end either.

But we must have accepted Christ, we must have accepted the word, we must have believed before the end.

Unless you are saying that we do not know whether or not we have sinned?

Do we not know the difference between living righteously and living unrighteously?

Have we not therefore the mind of Christ?

Thank you!

Firstfruits

kenrank
Jan 8th 2009, 12:10 PM
Why is the law not made for the righteous?

How do we obtain the righteousness that exculdes us from the law that is made for the ungodly or unrighteous?

Firstfruits

I don't believe the righteous are excluded from it, the righteous have the law instilled by the indwelling Spirit. The unrighteous are....unrighteous....by definition are law breakers and thus are still condemned under the law.

So the law isn't made for the righteous because they hold to sound doctrine, the teaching of Messiah and Torah, even if they want to tell themselves the Torah is dead. I realized a while ago that a Christian may want to believe the law is dead, say they won't "ever" adhere to it....but do and don't realize it or at least give it a second thought. Not living in the land, not having a temple, what is left of the law is done naturally by the Christian (save for keeping Sabbath) whether they realize it or even want to do it. They center their lives around God through Messiah, they don't kill, cheat, steal, lie, etc.

Peace.
Ken

Firstfruits
Jan 8th 2009, 01:08 PM
I don't believe the righteous are excluded from it, the righteous have the law instilled by the indwelling Spirit. The unrighteous are....unrighteous....by definition are law breakers and thus are still condemned under the law.

So the law isn't made for the righteous because they hold to sound doctrine, the teaching of Messiah and Torah, even if they want to tell themselves the Torah is dead. I realized a while ago that a Christian may want to believe the law is dead, say they won't "ever" adhere to it....but do and don't realize it or at least give it a second thought. Not living in the land, not having a temple, what is left of the law is done naturally by the Christian (save for keeping Sabbath) whether they realize it or even want to do it. They center their lives around God through Messiah, they don't kill, cheat, steal, lie, etc.

Peace.
Ken

Thanks Ken,

When we walk in the Spirit all of the "do nots" in the ten commandments are covered and more, those that follow the Spirit will not do them.

Gal 5:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Gal 5:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

When you look at the fruit of the Spirit and compare that with the ten commandments, you find that the ten commandments do not cover what walking in the Spirit covers. By walking in the Spirit we are 100% complete.

If you are walking in the Spirit you know what you are not doing.

The following apply to those that not walking in the spirit, as they are living contrary to sound doctrine.

1 Tim 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=54&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

If we are walking in the Spirit, why would we still fit into the group that the law was made for? Are we still unholy, are we still criminals, are we still profane etc?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

kenrank
Jan 8th 2009, 01:32 PM
Thanks Ken,

When we walk in the Spirit all of the "do nots" in the ten commandments are covered and more, those that follow the Spirit will not do them.

Firstfruits

My mentor (for lack of a better word) has a grasp of Hebrew and speaks it fluently. He has stated to me, and I have confirmed this elsewhere, that the 10 commands (or words) are not really commands at all FF. It is more like YHWH making a simple set of statements:

"My people love and serve me only. My people do not make idols and bow to them. My people don't steal, my people don't lie, my people don't murder, etc."

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

The fruits of the Spirit and the 10 words are synonomous. When we have Messiah (thus life) we are at peace, we live in joy. We take on attributes like being gentle to those around us, have a goodness that is inspired and derived of him. We become meek, temperate, live in faith. But at the same time, that love of God causes us to serve him only, not make idols or graven images, nor make his name useless or of no effect (taking it in vein). Some, out of love, keep his Set Apart Day, his Sabbath. All out of love for him.

That love transcends to loving those around us. And when we love those around us, we don't lie, commit adultry, steal, bear false witness against others, covet their belongings, and of course, honor our parents.

The fruit of the Spirit....derived from Messiah in us, allows us to do what those before could not, freely keep, without any condemnation, these commands in a way that love and joy are exemplified!

Peace...joy and love...to you.
Ken

Firstfruits
Jan 8th 2009, 01:54 PM
My mentor (for lack of a better word) has a grasp of Hebrew and speaks it fluently. He has stated to me, and I have confirmed this elsewhere, that the 10 commands (or words) are not really commands at all FF. It is more like YHWH making a simple set of statements:

"My people love and serve me only. My people do not make idols and bow to them. My people don't steal, my people don't lie, my people don't murder, etc."

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

The fruits of the Spirit and the 10 words are synonomous. When we have Messiah (thus life) we are at peace, we live in joy. We take on attributes like being gentle to those around us, have a goodness that is inspired and derived of him. We become meek, temperate, live in faith. But at the same time, that love of God causes us to serve him only, not make idols or graven images, nor make his name useless or of no effect (taking it in vein). Some, out of love, keep his Set Apart Day, his Sabbath. All out of love for him.

That love transcends to loving those around us. And when we love those around us, we don't lie, commit adultry, steal, bear false witness against others, covet their belongings, and of course, honor our parents.

The fruit of the Spirit....derived from Messiah in us, allows us to do what those before could not, freely keep, without any condemnation, these commands in a way that love and joy are exemplified!

Peace...joy and love...to you.
Ken

So whereas those that follow the Spirit are following Gods character, the law is for those that do not follow Gods character and are in fact contrary to his character, according to what is written.

Walking in the Spirit covers the following and more, which are not covered by the ten commandments.

That love transcends to loving those around us. And when we love those around us, we don't lie, commit adultry, steal, bear false witness against others, covet their belongings, and of course, honor our parents.

So in comparison, if it was insurance and you wanted the best cover, which would you choose?

Following the ten commandments does not mean that you are saved, however those that follow the Spirit are the Sons of God.

Rom 8:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Firstfruits

kenrank
Jan 8th 2009, 02:25 PM
So whereas those that follow the Spirit are following Gods character, the law is for those that do not follow Gods character and are in fact contrary to his character, according to what is written.

Walking in the Spirit covers the following and more, which are not covered by the ten commandments.

That love transcends to loving those around us. And when we love those around us, we don't lie, commit adultry, steal, bear false witness against others, covet their belongings, and of course, honor our parents.

So in comparison, if it was insurance and you wanted the best cover, which would you choose?

Following the ten commandments does not mean that you are saved, however those that follow the Spirit are the Sons of God.

Rom 8:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Firstfruits

In the same way that works do not save but that faith produces works, following the 10 commands does not mean you are saved, but the saved follow the 10 commands...by their very (new) nature. Does a believer in God serve other gods? Does a believer in God steal or lie? These are sins of the flesh that are put away as we put on the new man. When we are re-born, we are re-born and given the Spirit of Truth. We have Messiah in us (remember- "I will not leave you comfortless, I will come to you.") and thus we walk according to his will. What is his will? That we obey his words. He never said the 10 commands are dead or gone, he listed two (love God and neighbor) and then said ALL the Torah and prophets hang on those two. (Matt. 22:40)

Being led by the Spirit FF, simply means we are not led by the flesh any longer. It doesn't supercede any established scripture, rather, it gives us the ability to do what is stated in scripture because the flesh is no longer a factor...unless we allow it to be of course.

I think maybe there is a slight misunderstanding with this verse:

1Ti 1:9 knowing this: that Torah is not laid down for a righteous being, but for the lawless and unruly, for the wicked and for sinners, for the wrong-doers and profane,

It isn't made for the righteous because the righteous are already doing it.

Isa 51:7 "Listen to Me, you who know righteousness, a people in whose heart is My Torah: do not fear the reproach of men, nor be afraid of their revilings.

It is there for those who are lawless, wicked, who are sinners. Remember, all Torah does, aside from detailing God's will, is define what is sin and what isn't sin. The righteous are not supposed to be anyway, sinning...so the law is not made for them.

Peace.
Ken

Firstfruits
Jan 8th 2009, 02:32 PM
In the same way that works do not save but that faith produces works, following the 10 commands does not mean you are saved, but the saved follow the 10 commands...by their very (new) nature. Does a believer in God serve other gods? Does a believer in God steal or lie? These are sins of the flesh that are put away as we put on the new man. When we are re-born, we are re-born and given the Spirit of Truth. We have Messiah in us (remember- "I will not leave you comfortless, I will come to you.") and thus we walk according to his will. What is his will? That we obey his words. He never said the 10 commands are dead or gone, he listed two (love God and neighbor) and then said ALL the Torah and prophets hang on those two. (Matt. 22:40)

Being led by the Spirit FF, simply means we are not led by the flesh any longer. It doesn't supercede any established scripture, rather, it gives us the ability to do what is stated in scripture because the flesh is no longer a factor...unless we allow it to be of course.

I think maybe there is a slight misunderstanding with this verse:

1Ti 1:9 knowing this: that Torah is not laid down for a righteous being, but for the lawless and unruly, for the wicked and for sinners, for the wrong-doers and profane,

It isn't made for the righteous because the righteous are already doing it.

Isa 51:7 "Listen to Me, you who know righteousness, a people in whose heart is My Torah: do not fear the reproach of men, nor be afraid of their revilings.

It is there for those who are lawless, wicked, who are sinners. Remember, all Torah does, aside from detailing God's will, is define what is sin and what isn't sin. The righteous are not supposed to be anyway, sinning...so the law is not made for them.

Peace.
Ken

If you are walking in the Spirit, the ten commandments are surpassed, because as a child of God you do not do those things that are contrary to the doctrine of Christ. What therefore is the doctrine of Christ?

Firstfruits

kenrank
Jan 8th 2009, 03:07 PM
If you are walking in the Spirit, the ten commandments are surpassed, because as a child of God you do not do those things that are contrary to the doctrine of Christ. What therefore is the doctrine of Christ?

Firstfruits

This won't be popular on a mainstream Christian website, but my answer is, keeping Torah.

Let me share why:

Rom 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

So the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the same Spirit we walk after!

1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Keeping his words, keeping his commands, this is the love of God which is spread abroad our hearts by the Spirit we walk after. When we come in faith FF, we are given a measure of the Spirit. With that Spirit comes a cleansing from unrighteousness, and the Torah is instilled (or is progressively instilled until his return) into our hearts. (Jer 31:31-34) The law is then a PART of the righteous, and need not be given to the righteous who live it as instilled by the Spirit. For those that don't, the law is given because they do not abide by it. They will be judged by it, we will not.

Peace.
Ken

Firstfruits
Jan 8th 2009, 03:10 PM
Walking in the Spirit covers every thing that is contrary to the doctrine of Christ. The ten commandments only covers a percentage.

The advice we have is this;

Gal 5:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

BCF
Jan 8th 2009, 03:26 PM
One cannot walk in the Spirit unless one has picked up there cross and denied themselves and choose to follow Christ.

That takes a commitment of Love for our Lord whether you are reading the Torah or the Bible, the roads all lead to the same place. LOVE. LOVE THY GOD MORE THEN ANYTHING YOU HAVE, INCLUDING YOURSELF. Then you will be able to walk in the Spirit.

God Bless,

Dave

Firstfruits
Jan 8th 2009, 03:33 PM
One cannot walk in the Spirit unless one has picked up there cross and denied themselves and choose to follow Christ.

That takes a commitment of Love for our Lord whether you are reading the Torah or the Bible, the roads all lead to the same place. LOVE. LOVE THY GOD MORE THEN ANYTHING YOU HAVE, INCLUDING YOURSELF. Then you will be able to walk in the Spirit.

God Bless,

Dave

Not all roads lead to the same place.

Walking in the spirit makes us Sons of God, whereas the whole earth could follow the ten commandments without accepting Christ and being born again.

Jn 3:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

So as you can see not all roads are the same.

Firstfruits

kenrank
Jan 8th 2009, 03:37 PM
Walking in the Spirit covers every thing that is contrary to the doctrine of Christ. The ten commandments only covers a percentage.

The advice we have is this;

Gal 5:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

We don't disagree FF, we are just arriving at the same (basically) conclusion from two different angles.

Peace.
Ken

kenrank
Jan 8th 2009, 03:43 PM
One cannot walk in the Spirit unless one has picked up there cross and denied themselves and choose to follow Christ.

That takes a commitment of Love for our Lord whether you are reading the Torah or the Bible, the roads all lead to the same place. LOVE. LOVE THY GOD MORE THEN ANYTHING YOU HAVE, INCLUDING YOURSELF. Then you will be able to walk in the Spirit.

God Bless,

Dave

Greetings Dave. We too, are basically saying the same thing. I said "died to yourself" and "put on the new man," you said, "picked up the cross and denied themselves." Semantics my brother (:D), we are talking about the same life change.

Last I checked, the Torah was part of the bible. (First 5 books) I read it, as well as the rest of the prophets, the writings, and the NT. It is one long, exciting book of hope and promise to me.

Peace to you.
Ken

TrustingFollower
Jan 8th 2009, 03:46 PM
This won't be popular on a mainstream Christian website, but my answer is, keeping Torah.

Let me share why:

Rom 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

So the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the same Spirit we walk after!

1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Keeping his words, keeping his commands, this is the love of God which is spread abroad our hearts by the Spirit we walk after. When we come in faith FF, we are given a measure of the Spirit. With that Spirit comes a cleansing from unrighteousness, and the Torah is instilled (or is progressively instilled until his return) into our hearts. (Jer 31:31-34) The law is then a PART of the righteous, and need not be given to the righteous who live it as instilled by the Spirit. For those that don't, the law is given because they do not abide by it. They will be judged by it, we will not.

Peace.
Ken

Being a law keeper can not free us from anything. The intent of the law was and still is to point to the Savior Jesus Christ. We are to focus on faith in Jesus not the law.

Galatians 3

24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

BCF
Jan 8th 2009, 03:54 PM
Firstfruits;1935539

Walking in the spirit makes us Sons of God, whereas the whole earth could follow the ten commandments without accepting Christ and being born again.

Yes my friend....I agree. Walking in the Spirit does make us sons of God. But I disagree when you say the whole world could do the ten commandments without accepting Christ.

The first fruit of the Spirit is Love. The First Commandment of the ten is Love the Lord thy God. The first Commandment that Jesus gave us to do is Love.

Now I ask you. How is anyone in the world going to do the first of the ten Commandments, if they do not accept Jesus Our Lord?

Now.....there is a thing which (I call) false love in this world. Which is the kind of love that this world shows. That kind of love my friend is not the Love that God is talking about in the ten Commandments.

We must separate the two, and when we become born again....that is just what we do. We come to know and understand God's Love.....and we hate this worlds way of love. So if we are following scripture, whether it is the Torah or the Bible. They both teach to Love God more then anything, including ones self. That is the Love in which God talks about in the ten commandments, and Jesus talks about in His one Commandment. So both roads from the Torah and the Bible do lead to the same place. As long as you have Gods Love....b/c then you are born again. One cannot be....without it.

God Bless,

Dave

Firstfruits
Jan 8th 2009, 03:55 PM
We don't disagree FF, we are just arriving at the same (basically) conclusion from two different angles.

Peace.
Ken

Thanks Ken,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

kenrank
Jan 8th 2009, 03:56 PM
Being a law keeper can not free us from anything. The intent of the law was and still is to point to the Savior Jesus Christ. We are to focus on faith in Jesus not the law.

Galatians 3

24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

You'll get no arguement from me about that! Keeping Torah does NOT save in any way, shape, or form. Keeping Torah, obeying the commands of God, is simply something we do out of our love for God.

Your last line about focusing on Yahushua and not the Law...he is the law. He said those who obey the commands inherit the tree of life. John said that the love of God is keeping his commands. This isn't my opinion, this is what the Word states. Besides TF...are you telling me you cheat on your spouse, lie, steal, murder? Of course not, so even though you are, on one hand, saying there is no law....on the other, by the nature instilled in you by the Spirit, are all but keeping the law you believe is dead!

Peace.
Ken

kenrank
Jan 8th 2009, 03:59 PM
Thanks Ken,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Thank YOU! I enjoy the conversation greatly! We don't HAVE to agree on everypoint either FF. Not only is that not possible until Messiah returns and we are changed, but what would we have to talk about if we agreed on everything?

"FirstFruits, lots of weather we have been having lately, huh?" :D

Peace.
Ken

TrustingFollower
Jan 8th 2009, 04:05 PM
You'll get no arguement from me about that! Keeping Torah does NOT save in any way, shape, or form. Keeping Torah, obeying the commands of God, is simply something we do out of our love for God.

Your last line about focusing on Yahushua and not the Law...he is the law. He said those who obey the commands inherit the tree of life. John said that the love of God is keeping his commands. This isn't my opinion, this is what the Word states. Besides TF...are you telling me you cheat on your spouse, lie, steal, murder? Of course not, so even though you are, on one hand, saying there is no law....on the other, by the nature instilled in you by the Spirit, are all but keeping the law you believe is dead!

Peace.
Ken
What I am referring to is the Levitical law the 613 ordenances. They are not possible to keep. Rightly so God even said he gave a law that could not be kept. However if you are referring to the 10 commandments then yes every truly born again believer keeps all those commands and that is the meaning of the law being fulfilled.

Galatians 5

14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

BCF
Jan 8th 2009, 04:06 PM
Greetings Dave. We too, are basically saying the same thing. I said "died to yourself" and "put on the new man," you said, "picked up the cross and denied themselves." Semantics my brother (:D), we are talking about the same life change.

Last I checked, the Torah was part of the bible. (First 5 books) I read it, as well as the rest of the prophets, the writings, and the NT. It is one long, exciting book of hope and promise to me.

Peace to you.
Ken

I have never read it. Never been inspired to do so. I have friends who not only read it, but study and use it like I do my KJV. We sometimes get into some very deep conversations. It is fun. I have learned a lot from them and from my own personal study. That's all I use it for.

But as far as being exciting, anything that I study in scripture from any book is exciting to me. I just love to find out what our LORD and the Prophets had to say to us. Sometimes I get into my study that much....I wish I were their at the time.:D

God Bless,

Dave

kenrank
Jan 8th 2009, 04:08 PM
Yes my friend....I agree. Walking in the Spirit does make us sons of God. But I disagree when you say the whole world could do the ten commandments without accepting Christ.

FirstFruits, you didn't really say that, did you? Awe, you did it, now I have to diagree with you. ;)

Dave is right, the first command right out of the shoot eliminates the opportunity for a non-believer to keep the commands. Yahushua's message was to repent:

Mat 4:17 From that time Yahushua began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

What are we turning away (repenting) from? Sin, love of ourselves, making us the center of the universe instead of YHWH. We are, as believers, turning away from that and to him...because of love. So the first command ends a non-believers shot at keeping them right out of the gate.

Also, a non-believer is likely to have other gods (money, self, fame), will make God's name (authority) of no value (take in vain) because they don't love him so don't live according to his authority. And they wouldn't think of keeing Sabbath.

Peace.
Ken

kenrank
Jan 8th 2009, 04:11 PM
I have never read it. Never been inspired to do so. I have friends who not only read it, but study and use it like I do my KJV. We sometimes get into some very deep conversations. It is fun. I have learned a lot from them and from my own personal study. That's all I use it for.

But as far as being exciting, anything that I study in scripture from any book is exciting to me. I just love to find out what our LORD and the Prophets had to say to us. Sometimes I get into my study that much....I wish I were their at the time.:D

God Bless,

Dave

I use two bible versions for reading, the KJV and The Scriptures. I use a few other literal versions for study comparison. My point, the Torah is in the KJV, the first 5 books. Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, and Numbers. Most "laws" are found in the middle 3, but all 5 books are considered the Torah (Law). So..I bet you have read it. ;)

Peace.
Ken

Firstfruits
Jan 8th 2009, 04:22 PM
Yes my friend....I agree. Walking in the Spirit does make us sons of God. But I disagree when you say the whole world could do the ten commandments without accepting Christ.

The first fruit of the Spirit is Love. The First Commandment of the ten is Love the Lord thy God. The first Commandment that Jesus gave us to do is Love.

Now I ask you. How is anyone in the world going to do the first of the ten Commandments, if they do not accept Jesus Our Lord?

Now.....there is a thing which (I call) false love in this world. Which is the kind of love that this world shows. That kind of love my friend is not the Love that God is talking about in the ten Commandments.

We must separate the two, and when we become born again....that is just what we do. We come to know and understand God's Love.....and we hate this worlds way of love. So if we are following scripture, whether it is the Torah or the Bible. They both teach to Love God more then anything, including ones self. That is the Love in which God talks about in the ten commandments, and Jesus talks about in His one Commandment. So both roads from the Torah and the Bible do lead to the same place. As long as you have Gods Love....b/c then you are born again. One cannot be....without it.

God Bless,

Dave

If you look at the ten commandments if we do not do what we should not do IE all the thou shalt nots, none of them need a commitment to God other than not to do them.

Walking in the Spirit has a greater responsibility and commitment to God, to be led by Gods Spirit.

Does not having any other God or not making a graven image require commitment to God or Christ?

As long as we do not take the name of God in vain There is no commitment to God.

Not working on the Sabbath does not need a commitment to God.

Honouring father and mother needs no commitment to God.

Not killing another needs no commitment to God.

Not commiting Adultery neads no commitment to God.

Not stealing needs no commitment to God.

Not lying needs no commitment to God.

Not coveting needs no commitment to God.

Walking in the Spirit has the resposiblity that you are a child of God and should therefore display the fruit of the Spirit, the character of God.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

BCF
Jan 8th 2009, 04:26 PM
I use two bible versions for reading, the KJV and The Scriptures. I use a few other literal versions for study comparison. My point, the Torah is in the KJV, the first 5 books. Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, and Numbers. Most "laws" are found in the middle 3, but all 5 books are considered the Torah (Law). So..I bet you have read it. ;)

Peace.
Ken

:rofl::rofl:Yeah...I'm always studying those first books of the Bible in my KJV. And I am constantly cross referencing with others from those books.:D It is my understanding from scripture that those five books, play such a big roll in the NT writings. Just about everything that Jesus taught, you can find in those first five books alone. Of coarse I'm not saying that there is not other places to...bu the root of what He taught you will find their in one of those five.....if you dig deep enough.

So yeah....you are right. I have read them a lot. I just never looked at it..... as being the way you pointed it out.

God Bless,

Dave

kenrank
Jan 8th 2009, 04:38 PM
What I am referring to is the Levitical law the 613 ordenances. They are not possible to keep. Rightly so God even said he gave a law that could not be kept. However if you are referring to the 10 commandments then yes every truly born again believer keeps all those commands and that is the meaning of the law being fulfilled.

Galatians 5

14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

The word fulfilled in Gal 5:14 is play-ro'o, and means to satisy...don't confuse that with doing away with. It means when you love your neighbor you are satisfying the requirements of the law because you are not at emnity with him, transgressing him in any way.

As for the 613 +/- laws. Not all apply to us today TF. We are not in the land, and many laws are exclusive to being in the land AND under the authority of God. (Which even Israel is not today, they live under secular rule) There is no Temple, so many laws that are tied to having a temple are not in effect today. Many laws are tied to the Levitical priests alone, and are thus not applicable to you or I. Some are for woman, some only for men. When you boil it down, somewhere between 80-120 laws apply to the everyday Christian alive today.

The problem is Paul, many simply do not understand Paul. Let me show you what can be taken as double talk:

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

>>Here are two clear examples that Paul does not teach the law is dead and gone. We should also take into consideration that Paul denied teaching against the Law of Moses when he was on triel before his accusors in Acts. Yet....

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

>>Is he here saying the opposite? It would seem so, unless we look at his words from a historical perspective. Look at what HE was dealing with and WHO he was writing to. In the above verse, Paul is dealing with the man made laws added to God's law. The wall put up by Jews between them and Gentiles (not eating with them, not fellowshipping, adding fast days not found in scripture, attempting to hold them to a standard not even God tried to do) was pulled down, "ordinances" refering to "man made decrees."

I will leave this topic alone if you wish, I do not wish to cause emnity between you and I. I have too much respect and care to much for you to become a stumbling block to you. But I will say this, the Torah of God was given and practiced before Moses ever had it on stone. Abraham kept "all" of God's commands and laws, see Gen 26:5. This was long before Sinai!

When he gave them to Moses, to be put in writing, it was because Israel was about to become a nation, and God's Torah, the already established Torah, was given to be used as Israel's national judicial system. God promised them a land, they agreed to keep his law. They broke their end of the agreement....but the Torah, which when given was said to be "everlasting" and "perpetual" (God's words, not mine) did not go away, the covenant, the agreement was broken. And even THAT, not by GOD...by his people.

This is why Yahushua said "I did not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill." He couldn't destroy something already ordained to be everlasting!!! Not even GOD will go back on his word in that regard! So Yahushua went on and said that, "whoever does and teach the Torah will be called great in the Kingdom of heaven. Those who don't do or teach against Torah, called the least."

I will leave it at that. Sorry if my views offend you!
Peace.
Ken

Firstfruits
Jan 8th 2009, 04:48 PM
The word fulfilled in Gal 5:14 is play-ro'o, and means to satisy...don't confuse that with doing away with. It means when you love your neighbor you are satisfying the requirements of the law because you are not at emnity with him, transgressing him in any way.

As for the 613 +/- laws. Not all apply to us today TF. We are not in the land, and many laws are exclusive to being in the land AND under the authority of God. (Which even Israel is not today, they live under secular rule) There is no Temple, so many laws that are tied to having a temple are not in effect today. Many laws are tied to the Levitical priests alone, and are thus not applicable to you or I. Some are for woman, some only for men. When you boil it down, somewhere between 80-120 laws apply to the everyday Christian alive today.

The problem is Paul, many simply do not understand Paul. Let me show you what can be taken as double talk:

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

>>Here are two clear examples that Paul does not teach the law is dead and gone. We should also take into consideration that Paul denied teaching against the Law of Moses when he was on triel before his accusors in Acts. Yet....

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

>>Is he here saying the opposite? It would seem so, unless we look at his words from a historical perspective. Look at what HE was dealing with and WHO he was writing to. In the above verse, Paul is dealing with the man made laws added to God's law. The wall put up by Jews between them and Gentiles (not eating with them, not fellowshipping, adding fast days not found in scripture, attempting to hold them to a standard not even God tried to do) was pulled down, "ordinances" refering to "man made decrees."

I will leave this topic alone if you wish, I do not wish to cause emnity between you and I. I have too much respect and care to much for you to become a stumbling block to you. But I will say this, the Torah of God was given and practiced before Moses ever had it on stone. Abraham kept "all" of God's commands and laws, see Gen 26:5. This was long before Sinai!

When he gave them to Moses, to be put in writing, it was because Israel was about to become a nation, and God's Torah, the already established Torah, was given to be used as Israel's national judicial system. God promised them a land, they agreed to keep his law. They broke their end of the agreement....but the Torah, which when given was said to be "everlasting" and "perpetual" (God's words, not mine) did not go away, the covenant, the agreement was broken. And even THAT, not by GOD...by his people.

This is why Yahushua said "I did not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill." He couldn't destroy something already ordained to be everlasting!!! Not even GOD will go back on his word in that regard! So Yahushua went on and said that, "whoever does and teach the Torah will be called great in the Kingdom of heaven. Those who don't do or teach against Torah, called the least."

I will leave it at that. Sorry if my views offend you!
Peace.
Ken


How does what you have said apply to abiding in Christ and following the Spirit of God?

Gal 5:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

What law is it referring to?

Firstfruits

TrustingFollower
Jan 8th 2009, 04:49 PM
By me abiding in Christ and He in me then the law is fulfilled in me also because Christ already fulfilled the law. So I see you and I looking at the same thing from different angles here.

I appreciate your input on this, but this is a discussion for another thread so I won't derail this one any further.

God bless,
TF

kenrank
Jan 8th 2009, 04:52 PM
:rofl::rofl:Yeah...I'm always studying those first books of the Bible in my KJV. And I am constantly cross referencing with others from those books.:D It is my understanding from scripture that those five books, play such a big roll in the NT writings. Just about everything that Jesus taught, you can find in those first five books alone. Of coarse I'm not saying that there is not other places to...bu the root of what He taught you will find their in one of those five.....if you dig deep enough.

So yeah....you are right. I have read them a lot. I just never looked at it..... as being the way you pointed it out.

God Bless,

Dave

Your so right about the NT and how the Torah plays a big roll. If folks understood how many times Yahushua and Paul quoted the Torah, they would be blown away. But because so many churches see Torah as completely obsolete, they don't preach from it nor encourage any reading from it. Their flock then have no foundation to understand from where these quotes come from, and what they really mean. There is no NT, no Messiah, no nothing without Torah. It is simply the foundation from which our faith is built.

And before somebody tags that little line of mine and says that Messiah is our foundation...I know! But, he was a Torah keeper, said nothing about it not being applicable to his followers...and is himself, the Word.

Job 22:22 Receive, I pray thee, the law from his mouth, and lay up his words in thine heart.

Psa 40:8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.

Job says to put his WORD in your heart, David says to put his Torah in your heart. They are synonomous. I have heard many a Baptist preacher preach that Yahushua was the spoken Word....then the written Word...then the Word made flesh. Do they even realize what they are saying? That the written "word" is the Torah. Yahushua then, is the Torah made flesh. How can he make HIMSELF dead and not applicable to today?

Boggles the mind!:D

Peace.
Ken

kenrank
Jan 8th 2009, 05:01 PM
How does what you have said apply to abiding in Christ and following the Spirit of God?

Gal 5:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

What law is it referring to?

Firstfruits

Torah, but the key is the word against. (In Greek is means in opposition to) It isn't saying there is no law as in "the law was nailed to the cross." He is actually in a round about way saying the opposite. Watch.....

In opposition to meekness and goodess and joy there is no law. Against love and peace and faith there is no law. All he is saying is these fruits are within the law...nothing is against or in opposition to them.

Peace.
Ken

kenrank
Jan 8th 2009, 05:12 PM
By me abiding in Christ and He in me then the law is fulfilled in me also because Christ already fulfilled the law. So I see you and I looking at the same thing from different angles here.

I appreciate your input on this, but this is a discussion for another thread so I won't derail this one any further.

God bless,
TF

You're right, we should open another thread and explore and enjoy this discussion further.

So in closing this thread within a thread and before getting back to the topic...I will leave you with this: Boldened so the Mods know we will get back to topic!!

If Yahushua said he did not come to destroy the law, then how does fulfilling it mean it is done away with? That makes it go away, destroys something ordained as everlasting.

I see him fulfilling the law like this:

When Adam sinned, death was the result for all that followed. Sin = death.

The opposite then is true also, and God made it so, the sinlessness by one who knew no sin, would undo the condemnation resulting from sin, death.

So sinlessness= life.

By not sinning against the Law, Yahushua fulfilled...made complete...maybe better said, "accomplished the purpose of" the Law. He lived according to Torah without sinning against it, and he is the model we are to emulate. But what is the Law?

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

We know what sin is, what God expects and doesn't expect, by knowledge of the Law. Since he walked it perfectly without sinning, and because we are now aided by His Spirit, we can be obedient to God without the concern of condemnation of the law, for we are not under the condemnation of it any longer. Death no longer hangs over us and we are free to walk in his will without fear.

Peace.
Ken

Firstfruits
Jan 8th 2009, 08:16 PM
By me abiding in Christ and He in me then the law is fulfilled in me also because Christ already fulfilled the law. So I see you and I looking at the same thing from different angles here.

I appreciate your input on this, but this is a discussion for another thread so I won't derail this one any further.

God bless,
TF

Thanks Trustingfollower,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jan 8th 2009, 08:30 PM
You're right, we should open another thread and explore and enjoy this discussion further.

So in closing this thread within a thread and before getting back to the topic...I will leave you with this: Boldened so the Mods know we will get back to topic!!

If Yahushua said he did not come to destroy the law, then how does fulfilling it mean it is done away with? That makes it go away, destroys something ordained as everlasting.

I see him fulfilling the law like this:

When Adam sinned, death was the result for all that followed. Sin = death.

The opposite then is true also, and God made it so, the sinlessness by one who knew no sin, would undo the condemnation resulting from sin, death.

So sinlessness= life.

By not sinning against the Law, Yahushua fulfilled...made complete...maybe better said, "accomplished the purpose of" the Law. He lived according to Torah without sinning against it, and he is the model we are to emulate. But what is the Law?

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

We know what sin is, what God expects and doesn't expect, by knowledge of the Law. Since he walked it perfectly without sinning, and because we are now aided by His Spirit, we can be obedient to God without the concern of condemnation of the law, for we are not under the condemnation of it any longer. Death no longer hangs over us and we are free to walk in his will without fear.

Peace.
Ken

Since following the Spirit covers the ten commandments and more with regards to what we are not to do. It also at the same time tells us how we should be with regards to to fruit of the Spirit.
So it is not as though the law is wrong or not relevant in the right place, but the Spirit overshadows the shadow.

If we walk in the Spirit we are doing more than what we could do by keeping the ten commandments. In Christ we are complete.

Why settle for second best?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Emanate
Jan 8th 2009, 08:37 PM
Since following the Spirit covers the ten commandments and more with regards to what we are not to do. It also at the same time tells us how we should be with regards to to fruit of the Spirit.
So it is not as though the law is wrong or not relevant in the right place, but the Spirit overshadows the shadow.

If we walk in the Spirit we are doing more than what we could do by keeping the ten commandments. In Christ we are complete.

Why settle for second best?




Uh, that is similar to saying we should not have to love our neighbor because we have the Spirit. The "ten commandments" and walking in the Spirit are two mutually compatible gifts. One does not nullify the other, it enforces the other.

Firstfruits
Jan 8th 2009, 08:41 PM
Torah, but the key is the word against. (In Greek is means in opposition to) It isn't saying there is no law as in "the law was nailed to the cross." He is actually in a round about way saying the opposite. Watch.....

In opposition to meekness and goodess and joy there is no law. Against love and peace and faith there is no law. All he is saying is these fruits are within the law...nothing is against or in opposition to them.

Peace.
Ken

Can you show me where in the ten commandments are the fruit of the Spirit?

Gal 5:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Also why does walking in the fruit of the Spirit cover more than the ten commandments?

What is sound doctrine when it come to following the Spirit?

God bless you!

Firstfruits


Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jan 8th 2009, 08:51 PM
Uh, that is similar to saying we should not have to love our neighbor because we have the Spirit. The "ten commandments" and walking in the Spirit are two mutually compatible gifts. One does not nullify the other, it enforces the other.

What is being said is that walking in the Spirit covers the ten commandments and more because of what you shall not do if you walk and live in the Spirit.

Walking in the Spirit is showing the character of God, it is more than just not doing what is wrong.

It is a whole new life style unlike those that are just being good. Being good does not mean you belong to God walking in the Spirit does.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

BCF
Jan 8th 2009, 11:05 PM
If you look at the ten commandments if we do not do what we should not do IE all the thou shalt nots, none of them need a commitment to God other than not to do them.

Walking in the Spirit has a greater responsibility and commitment to God, to be led by Gods Spirit.

Does not having any other God or not making a graven image require commitment to God or Christ?

As long as we do not take the name of God in vain There is no commitment to God.

Not working on the Sabbath does not need a commitment to God.

Honouring father and mother needs no commitment to God.

Not killing another needs no commitment to God.

Not commiting Adultery neads no commitment to God.

Not stealing needs no commitment to God.

Not lying needs no commitment to God.

Not coveting needs no commitment to God.

Walking in the Spirit has the resposiblity that you are a child of God and should therefore display the fruit of the Spirit, the character of God.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Let me ask you a question friend...

By obeying what the scripture says....does that take a commitment to God for us to do, or is that the responsibility that we have as a child of God, which shows through the Fruit of the Spirit?

Which do you say is true?

God Bless,

Dave

Firstfruits
Jan 9th 2009, 08:47 AM
Let me ask you a question friend...

By obeying what the scripture says....does that take a commitment to God for us to do, or is that the responsibility that we have as a child of God, which shows through the Fruit of the Spirit?

Which do you say is true?

God Bless,

Dave

If as many do by not causing hurt to their neighbour, it does not automatically mean that they are commited to God.

To be commited to God means to believe in his son and to love one another as Jesus has commanded us.

1 Jn 3:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

So just keeping the commandments without putting faith in Christ shows no commitment to God.

Firstfruits

Emanate
Jan 9th 2009, 02:41 PM
What is being said is that walking in the Spirit covers the ten commandments and more because of what you shall not do if you walk and live in the Spirit.

Walking in the Spirit is showing the character of God, it is more than just not doing what is wrong.

It is a whole new life style unlike those that are just being good. Being good does not mean you belong to God walking in the Spirit does.

God bless you!

Firstfruits


It is rare when you make a statment without a question mark. It looks cool. I agree with your statement, except for the 'cover the ten commandments' part. Walking after the commands is not a be all end all. We should always 'walk in the Sprit.' Doing so means much, much more than keeping commands.

Firstfruits
Jan 9th 2009, 03:15 PM
It is rare when you make a statment without a question mark. It looks cool. I agree with your statement, except for the 'cover the ten commandments' part. Walking after the commands is not a be all end all. We should always 'walk in the Sprit.' Doing so means much, much more than keeping commands.

Have a look at the full context of what is means to walk in the spirit, and then look at the ten commandments.

Galatians 5:16-25
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Exodus 20:1-17
1 And God spake all these words, saying,
2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
12 Honor thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
13 Thou shalt not kill.
14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15 Thou shalt not steal.
16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbor's.

Notice that keeping the ten commandments is not the same as walking in the Spirit;

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

BCF
Jan 9th 2009, 06:07 PM
If as many do by not causing hurt to their neighbour, it does not automatically mean that they are commited to God.

To be commited to God means to believe in his son and to love one another as Jesus has commanded us.

1 Jn 3:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

So just keeping the commandments without putting faith in Christ shows no commitment to God.

Firstfruits

You are right with what you are saying here. But you are missing the BIG picture my friend. And by doing so, you are putting God in a box. You also avoided answering my question. But that is okay my friend.....I'll answer it for you. The answer is both. One cannot do the one without the other, b/c they both require a True Commitment of LOVE for our Lord, in order to do them effectively.

Now....to answer your question here, I will take you to what Jesus said to the rich young ruler in Matthew 19:16-

"16. Now behold, one came and said to Him, Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life? 17. So He said to him, Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments. 18. He said to Him, which ones? Jesus said, You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bare false witness, 19. Honor your father and your mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 20. The young man said to Him, All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack? 21. Jesus said to him, If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me. 22. But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions."

Okay my friend...a few more questions for you to answer.

1. This young man did all the commandments but ONE. What was it?

2. Jesus told this young man that if he wanted to be perfect, he should go and sell what he had and follow Jesus in verse 21. Why did Jesus say that to the young man? And why could the young man not do it?

3.What did this young man lack which would keep him from eternal life?

Here is a hint. There is only one answer for all four questions, and I already gave you the answer in this post. And without it, one cannot begin to follow any Commandment or Walk in the Spirit.

God Bless,

Dave

Firstfruits
Jan 9th 2009, 08:40 PM
You are right with what you are saying here. But you are missing the BIG picture my friend. And by doing so, you are putting God in a box. You also avoided answering my question. But that is okay my friend.....I'll answer it for you. The answer is both. One cannot do the one without the other, b/c they both require a True Commitment of LOVE for our Lord, in order to do them effectively.

Now....to answer your question here, I will take you to what Jesus said to the rich young ruler in Matthew 19:16-

"16. Now behold, one came and said to Him, Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life? 17. So He said to him, Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments. 18. He said to Him, which ones? Jesus said, You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bare false witness, 19. Honor your father and your mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 20. The young man said to Him, All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack? 21. Jesus said to him, If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me. 22. But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions."

Okay my friend...a few more questions for you to answer.

1. This young man did all the commandments but ONE. What was it?

2. Jesus told this young man that if he wanted to be perfect, he should go and sell what he had and follow Jesus in verse 21. Why did Jesus say that to the young man? And why could the young man not do it?

3.What did this young man lack which would keep him from eternal life?

Here is a hint. There is only one answer for all four questions, and I already gave you the answer in this post. And without it, one cannot begin to follow any Commandment or Walk in the Spirit.

God Bless,

Dave

I see what you are saying but I would like to point out that walking in the Spirit has love and much more than the ten commandments.

If we are therefore walking in the Spirit and we are the sons of God and we have love and so much more than the ten commandments, what is missing?

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

All that is God is contained therein, so again I ask, what is missing?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

TrustingFollower
Jan 9th 2009, 09:37 PM
I see what you are saying but I would like to point out that walking in the Spirit has love and much more than the ten commandments.

If we are therefore walking in the Spirit and we are the sons of God and we have love and so much more than the ten commandments, what is missing?

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

All that is God is contained therein, so again I ask, what is missing?

God bless you!

Firstfruits
John 7

38 "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, `From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.´"
39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Now that Jesus has been glorified we have the Holy Spirit in us. The very Spirit of the son of God and our seal into the adoption of sons ourselves. That is what is not included in the list FF had shared with us. We have more than just a list of dos and don't, we have God's Spirit in us to guide us.

BCF
Jan 9th 2009, 09:45 PM
John 7

38 "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, `From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.´"
39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Now that Jesus has been glorified we have the Holy Spirit in us. The very Spirit of the son of God and our seal into the adoption of sons ourselves. That is what is not included in the list FF had shared with us. We have more than just a list of dos and don't, we have God's Spirit in us to guide us.

One cannot have Gods Spirit in them to Guide them if they do not have Love. God is Love. Without Love you are not of God. It is impossible to have Gods Spirit in you if you do not have Gods Love.

God Bless,

Dave

Firstfruits
Jan 10th 2009, 03:46 PM
John 7

38 "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, `From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.´"
39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Now that Jesus has been glorified we have the Holy Spirit in us. The very Spirit of the son of God and our seal into the adoption of sons ourselves. That is what is not included in the list FF had shared with us. We have more than just a list of dos and don't, we have God's Spirit in us to guide us.

Thanks Trustingfollower,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jan 10th 2009, 03:56 PM
One cannot have Gods Spirit in them to Guide them if they do not have Love. God is Love. Without Love you are not of God. It is impossible to have Gods Spirit in you if you do not have Gods Love.

God Bless,

Dave

Who's love is the love mentioned in the fruit of the Spirit?

Since the Spirit is Gods and we follow Gods Spirit and the fruit of the Spirit has Gods love, who's love is it if we have God Spirit?

Gal 5:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

God bless you!

Firstfruits
Gal 5:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

BCF
Jan 10th 2009, 04:38 PM
Who's love is the love mentioned in the fruit of the Spirit?

Since the Spirit is Gods and we follow Gods Spirit and the fruit of the Spirit has Gods love, who's love is it if we have God Spirit?

Gal 5:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

God bless you!

Firstfruits
Gal 5:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

It is Gods Love my friend....but in the same token, who's love was it that was mentioned in God's Top Ten list?
It was one in the same. This is why I am saying that both roads lead to the same place.

Nothing was changed when Jesus came with the Law, which was the Ten Commandments and all of their meanings. Jesus made them easier for us to do. When He died on that cross, He fulfilled the law and all of their meanings. Jesus told us that all we needed to do was Love, and by doing so we would do all the Commandments.

Well......Love what? Love God. How? By picking up our crosses and following Jesus. But their is a condition in doing this. We need to deny ourselves (flesh). We need to Love God more then we Love ourselves. John 3:5-7 tells us just that. Being Born Again takes a change of Heart and a change of Mind (Romans 12:1-2) for God and not for this world.

Yes....salvation is a free gift from God. But we pay a big price in this world for our free gift from God when we deny ourselves, and pickup our crosses, and follow Christ, b/c we Love Jesus more then we love ourselves and the things of this world.

God Bless,

Dave

Firstfruits
Jan 10th 2009, 06:33 PM
It is Gods Love my friend....but in the same token, who's love was it that was mentioned in God's Top Ten list?
It was one in the same. This is why I am saying that both roads lead to the same place.

Nothing was changed when Jesus came with the Law, which was the Ten Commandments and all of their meanings. Jesus made them easier for us to do. When He died on that cross, He fulfilled the law and all of their meanings. Jesus told us that all we needed to do was Love, and by doing so we would do all the Commandments.

Well......Love what? Love God. How? By picking up our crosses and following Jesus. But their is a condition in doing this. We need to deny ourselves (flesh). We need to Love God more then we Love ourselves. John 3:5-7 tells us just that. Being Born Again takes a change of Heart and a change of Mind (Romans 12:1-2) for God and not for this world.

Yes....salvation is a free gift from God. But we pay a big price in this world for our free gift from God when we deny ourselves, and pickup our crosses, and follow Christ, b/c we Love Jesus more then we love ourselves and the things of this world.

God Bless,

Dave

Which of the ten commandments tells us to love one another, as Christ has commanded us to according to Gods commandment?

1 Jn 3:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Thanks,

Firstfruits

BCF
Jan 10th 2009, 06:56 PM
Which of the ten commandments tells us to love one another, as Christ has commanded us to according to Gods commandment?

1 Jn 3:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Thanks,

Firstfruits

1. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

If you are not doing this to your neighbor....what are you doing? Loving them with the Love of God.

2. You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.

If you are not doing any of these things to your neighbor.... what are you doing? Loving them with the love of God.

3. Thou shalt not steal.

If you are not stealing from another person......what are you doing, showing the Love of God to God's children.

4. You shall not murder.

If you do not take the life of someone by killing them....
what are you doing. Showing the Love of God to God's children.

I could go on with all of the Ten Commandments but I trust you get the idea. You see my friend, the Ten Commandments were made for people to follow b/c they Loved God. The Ten Commandment is all about Loving God. That is why Jesus told us that if we did the first one, and the last one, all the rest of the Commandment would follow. Why? Because they were all about Loving God and how much we Loved God. Wants we come to understand this. We can come to understand what Jesus meant when He told us that we need to be Born Again.

God Bless,

Dave

Firstfruits
Jan 10th 2009, 07:11 PM
1. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

If you are not doing this to your neighbor....what are you doing? Loving them with the Love of God.

2. You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.

If you are not doing any of these things to your neighbor.... what are you doing? Loving them with the love of God.

3. Thou shalt not steal.

If you are not stealing from another person......what are you doing, showing the Love of God to God's children.

4. You shall not murder.

If you do not take the life of someone by killing them....
what are you doing. Showing the Love of God to God's children.

I could go on with all of the Ten Commandments but I trust you get the idea. You see my friend, the Ten Commandments were made for people to follow b/c they Loved God. The Ten Commandment is all about Loving God. That is why Jesus told us that if we did the first one, and the last one, all the rest of the Commandment would follow. Why? Because they were all about Loving God and how much we Loved God. Wants we come to understand this. We can come to understand what Jesus meant when He told us that we need to be Born Again.

God Bless,

Dave

All that you have mentioned does not mean that we love God, there is no need for a commitment to God. Where does commitment to God apply?

With fruits of the Spirit, if you are walking/following the Spirit you need commitment or else you are not following God.

Firstfruits

BCF
Jan 10th 2009, 07:38 PM
All that you have mentioned does not mean that we love God, there is no need for a commitment to God. Where does commitment to God apply?

With fruits of the Spirit, if you are walking/following the Spirit you need commitment or else you are not following God.

Firstfruits


Jesus was God in the flesh. How does one become Born again with making a Commitment of Love to Jesus who is God?

Without being Born Again my friend it is impossible to follow the Fruits of the Spirit, b/c your spirit is not renewed by God. When God renews a Spirit, the first thing you get is God's Love, b/c God is Love. Without it, we are not one of his. 1st John 4:6-9:

"6. We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. 7. Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8. He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9. In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him.

These verses prove what I am saying.

God Bless,

Dave

Firstfruits
Jan 10th 2009, 08:19 PM
Jesus was God in the flesh. How does one become Born again with making a Commitment of Love to Jesus who is God?

Without being Born Again my friend it is impossible to follow the Fruits of the Spirit, b/c your spirit is not renewed by God. When God renews a Spirit, the first thing you get is God's Love, b/c God is Love. Without it, we are not one of his. 1st John 4:6-9:

"6. We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. 7. Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8. He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9. In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him.

These verses prove what I am saying.

God Bless,

Dave

That does not mean that that is according to the ten commandments which came before Christ and also before the Spirit which we are to follow, which are not the ten commandments.

Following the ten commandments is not the same as following the Spirit.

This is what we follow if we follow the Spirit;

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

How does being a child of God compare with those for whom the law is made for?

God bless!

Firstfruits

BCF
Jan 11th 2009, 12:23 AM
That does not mean that that is according to the ten commandments which came before Christ and also before the Spirit which we are to follow, which are not the ten commandments.

Following the ten commandments is not the same as following the Spirit.

This is what we follow if we follow the Spirit;

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

How does being a child of God compare with those for whom the law is made for?

God bless!

Firstfruits

My friend...Jesus became the law in the flesh, b/c He came not to destroy the Law but fulfill the Law. The Commandment that Jesus gave was based around the Law that God gave in the OT.

When we become Born Again in Spirit, we can follow the Commandments of Jesus through the Holy Spirit which was Love one another. When we love one another we are walking in the Spirit. In the OT they had no Spirit to follow. God talked to them literally, and the leaders followed. So b/c they had no Holy Spirit to follow, only prophets who God picked, God made His Top Ten to give to Moses, to show the people what He wanted them to do for Him. Those Ten Commandment were made for the people to follow, which in turn would show there Love for God. If they could have followed those Commandments to the LETTER, we would live in a different world right now. But b/c of the sin in the Garden, they could not...so God needed to send His Son Jesus to follow the Law to the LETTER. How did Jesus do this? By teaching Love. If the Ten Commandments were not teachings of Love from God to His people, why did Jesus, who was the Law in the flesh, b/c Jesus came to fulfill the Law, not destroy it. Why did Jesus teach Love in all of His teachings everywhere he went?

I will wait for your answer to that question.

God Bless,

Dave

Firstfruits
Jan 11th 2009, 10:29 AM
My friend...Jesus became the law in the flesh, b/c He came not to destroy the Law but fulfill the Law. The Commandment that Jesus gave was based around the Law that God gave in the OT.

When we become Born Again in Spirit, we can follow the Commandments of Jesus through the Holy Spirit which was Love one another. When we love one another we are walking in the Spirit. In the OT they had no Spirit to follow. God talked to them literally, and the leaders followed. So b/c they had no Holy Spirit to follow, only prophets who God picked, God made His Top Ten to give to Moses, to show the people what He wanted them to do for Him. Those Ten Commandment were made for the people to follow, which in turn would show there Love for God. If they could have followed those Commandments to the LETTER, we would live in a different world right now. But b/c of the sin in the Garden, they could not...so God needed to send His Son Jesus to follow the Law to the LETTER. How did Jesus do this? By teaching Love. If the Ten Commandments were not teachings of Love from God to His people, why did Jesus, who was the Law in the flesh, b/c Jesus came to fulfill the Law, not destroy it. Why did Jesus teach Love in all of His teachings everywhere he went?

I will wait for your answer to that question.

God Bless,

Dave

If we are walking in the Spirit, we are walking in love, as love is one of the fruit of the Spirit. If we are therefore walking in love by following the Spirit we are therefore fulfilling Christs commandment to love.

Rom 8:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Rom 8:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Rom 8:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Rom 8:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Rom 8:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Rom 8:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Rom 8:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Rom 8:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Rom 8:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Rom 8:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) The Spirit itself beareth witness with our Spirit, that we are the children of God:

When you compare the ten commandments with the fruit of the Spirit, you can clearly see that which is concerned with the flesh and that which is concerned with the Spirit.

If we are children of God, we are Spirit. We will not fulfil the lusts of the flesh.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jan 12th 2009, 12:04 PM
According to what is written the law was weak because of the flesh;

Rom 8:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

How then do we understand the following scripture?

Rom 8:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Are we therefore led of the Spirit?

Firstfruits

shepherdsword
Jan 12th 2009, 12:11 PM
Uh... you keep saying that. Is your God the God of the Scripture? If so... then point all this out in Scripture and not some "man/God" made up something or other. ;)

Take for example your little God saying that you say your God says. "I'll make you endure to the end." Where, in Scripture, is that actually written?

I'm still waiting for a PROPER response to this challenge YB.

Jesus said that "he endures to the end shall be saved" (Mat 24:13)
Are you telling us he lied?

Firstfruits
Jan 12th 2009, 08:14 PM
I'm still waiting for a PROPER response to this challenge YB.

Jesus said that "he endures to the end shall be saved" (Mat 24:13)
Are you telling us he lied?

Jesus did not lie, we must not forget that Jesus said until the end, so a believer does not endure till the end will they be saved, or did jesus get it wrong?

Mt 10:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Mt 24:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

1 Cor 13:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

2 Thess 1:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=53&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

Heb 6:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.

Even Jesus had to endure to the end, why shouldn't we?

Heb 12:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Heb 12:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

Till the end means just that, the end.

Firstfruits

BCF
Jan 12th 2009, 09:53 PM
If we are walking in the Spirit, we are walking in love, as love is one of the fruit of the Spirit. If we are therefore walking in love by following the Spirit we are therefore fulfilling Christs commandment to love.

Rom 8:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Rom 8:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Rom 8:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Rom 8:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Rom 8:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Rom 8:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Rom 8:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Rom 8:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Rom 8:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Rom 8:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) The Spirit itself beareth witness with our Spirit, that we are the children of God:

When you compare the ten commandments with the fruit of the Spirit, you can clearly see that which is concerned with the flesh and that which is concerned with the Spirit.

If we are children of God, we are Spirit. We will not fulfil the lusts of the flesh.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Not sure what you are trying to get at here. Everything that you listed has to do with the Spiritual, yet you start out by saying that if we are following the fruit of the Spirit, we are following the commandment of love that Jesus gave. When the only way we can follow that commandment is through the physical, so what would that have to do with all the verses you quoted.:dunno:

God Bless,

Dave

BCF
Jan 12th 2009, 09:55 PM
According to what is written the law was weak because of the flesh;

Rom 8:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

How then do we understand the following scripture?

Rom 8:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Are we therefore led of the Spirit?

Firstfruits

Yes.....we are suppose to be led by the Spirit.

shepherdsword
Jan 13th 2009, 02:27 AM
I think firstfruits has it. We MUST endure to the end(telos)


telos (tel'-os); from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly, the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose); specifically, an impost or levy (as paid)

BCF
Jan 13th 2009, 02:58 AM
How does one walk in the Spirit without first having Faith?

One needs to have Faith before one can believe in anything, or walk in anything. It was Faith that God wanted to get established with humans when he made his Top Ten list. But b/c we humans could not do it alone, God had to send His Son in the likeness of man to establish what man was unable to do. Which was to establish Faith for our sakes.

If God would not have sent Jesus to establish Faith, we would not know how to have Faith in Jesus, in order for us to believe in Jesus, so that we could walk in the Fruit of the Spirit, and do the commandment that Jesus gave us to do which was love, b/c we would not know how. Jesus was the teacher and we are the students. Jesus set the bar...and we follow it. Why must we make this so difficult.

God Bless,

Dave

Firstfruits
Jan 13th 2009, 10:44 AM
Not sure what you are trying to get at here. Everything that you listed has to do with the Spiritual, yet you start out by saying that if we are following the fruit of the Spirit, we are following the commandment of love that Jesus gave. When the only way we can follow that commandment is through the physical, so what would that have to do with all the verses you quoted.:dunno:

God Bless,

Dave

Gal 5:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Heb 12:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Have we not put our faith in Christ that he will take our burdens?

The flesh is what made the law weak;

Rom 8:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

How can that which is weak by the flesh now be made strong by the flesh/physical?

Firstfruits

BCF
Jan 13th 2009, 06:50 PM
Gal 5:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Heb 12:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Have we not put our faith in Christ that he will take our burdens?

The flesh is what made the law weak;

Rom 8:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

How can that which is weak by the flesh now be made strong by the flesh/physical?

Firstfruits

It can't....but the Fruit of the Spirit does not come from our Physical minds....it comes from our Spiritual being.

John 3:6, "That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

We are human who are made up of three parts. Spirit, Soul, and Body. Our Spirit is God. Our Soul is our minds, wills and emotions. Our Body is our flesh.

We have a Spirit (God), which lives a soul (mind, will, emotions) which lives in a Body (flesh).

Our soul's (mind, will, and emotions) are going to follow either our flesh, or our Spirit. I do not care how saved on thinks that they are......there is no place in scripture that will tell you, that your soul will always follow your Spirit 24/7, 365 days a year, for the rest of your entire life on this earth. There are days my friend that we as saved born again Christian will have our soul's follow after our bodies, which produces nothing but sin.

So my friend.....you cannot say that you always are walking in the Fruit of the Spirit as you have claimed on this thread. We can only walk in the Fruit of the Spirit, when we are in the Spirit of God. But when we are walking in the flesh, we are not walking in the Fruit of the Spirit. To say and claim that one does walk in the Fruit of the Spirit all the time, is a misunderstanding of scripture. Only Jesus could do such a thing....and I doubt very seriously that I am talking to my Lord.

God Bless,

Dave

Firstfruits
Jan 13th 2009, 07:49 PM
It can't....but the Fruit of the Spirit does not come from our Physical minds....it comes from our Spiritual being.

John 3:6, "That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

We are human who are made up of three parts. Spirit, Soul, and Body. Our Spirit is God. Our Soul is our minds, wills and emotions. Our Body is our flesh.

We have a Spirit (God), which lives a soul (mind, will, emotions) which lives in a Body (flesh).

Our soul's (mind, will, and emotions) are going to follow either our flesh, or our Spirit. I do not care how saved on thinks that they are......there is no place in scripture that will tell you, that your soul will always follow your Spirit 24/7, 365 days a year, for the rest of your entire life on this earth. There are days my friend that we as saved born again Christian will have our soul's follow after our bodies, which produces nothing but sin.

So my friend.....you cannot say that you always are walking in the Fruit of the Spirit as you have claimed on this thread. We can only walk in the Fruit of the Spirit, when we are in the Spirit of God. But when we are walking in the flesh, we are not walking in the Fruit of the Spirit. To say and claim that one does walk in the Fruit of the Spirit all the time, is a misunderstanding of scripture. Only Jesus could do such a thing....and I doubt very seriously that I am talking to my Lord.

God Bless,

Dave

Can we be both, Spirit and Flesh?

Rom 8:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Rom 8:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Rom 8:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

John 3:6, "That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

Are we born of the Spirit?

Are we born again?

Firstfruits

Emanate
Jan 13th 2009, 08:52 PM
Notice that keeping the ten commandments is not the same as walking in the Spirit;

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

God bless you!

Firstfruits


I fail to see how the attributes that are mentioned not being against the law means that they are in opposition to the law.

Faith never voids law.

Emanate
Jan 13th 2009, 08:53 PM
The flesh is what made the law weak;


If the flesh makes the law "weak" then what would the Spirit do? The same as the flesh?

kenrank
Jan 14th 2009, 06:23 AM
I fail to see how the attributes that are mentioned not being against the law means that they are in opposition to the law.

Faith never voids law.

Great point, Abraham is a model of faith...but kept the commandments and Torah.

Peace.
Ken

Firstfruits
Jan 14th 2009, 09:00 AM
Great point, Abraham is a model of faith...but kept the commandments and Torah.

Peace.
Ken

Are you talking about the teachings of the Torah as a whole, as the law was not given until 430 years later?

Gal 3:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jan 14th 2009, 09:05 AM
If the flesh makes the law "weak" then what would the Spirit do? The same as the flesh?

We who are Christs are not in the flesh accoprding to the following, unless we do not believe we are spiritual.

Rom 8:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Rom 8:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

Firstfruits

BCF
Jan 14th 2009, 01:44 PM
We who are Christs are not in the flesh accoprding to the following, unless we do not believe we are spiritual.

Rom 8:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Rom 8:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

Firstfruits

And round and round we go.:spin::bounce::lol::B:B:giveup:

Jesus became the law. So how can one believe in something that one does not have complete Faith in?

Firstfruits
Jan 14th 2009, 02:14 PM
And round and round we go.:spin::bounce::lol::B:B:giveup:

Jesus became the law. So how can one believe in something that one does not have complete Faith in?

There is no need to go round and round, if we believe we are truly born of the spirit as it is written;

Rom 8:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

John 3:6, "That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

Do we believe or do we not believe?

Are we born again?

Jn 3:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Jn 3:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Jn 3:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Jn 3:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

1 Pet 1:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=60&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

God bless You!

Firstfruits

kenrank
Jan 14th 2009, 04:07 PM
Are you talking about the teachings of the Torah as a whole, as the law was not given until 430 years later?

Gal 3:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Firstfruits

Greetings FF. I am speaking about what was expected of us, what was defined as sin and what was not sin. Cain committed murder, and was punished by God. (Not man) Point is, murder was established as sin before Sinai. 4 chapters prior to the law being given to Moses, we see the Israelites not only resting on the Sabbath, but also having the preparation day, which itself is law. We also know they were not to eat the blood of an animal, another law given again later at Sinai. So there were clearly aspects of expectation by God of his people, called his Torah, in place long before it was given at Sinai.

Sure there are many laws that were not in place in Abraham's day. For example, aside from Sabbath, I am not sure there were other appointed days in place as the reason for them had not yet been made manifest. Passover related to what happened while still in captivity under Pharaoh, so Abraham would obviously had no knowledge of this and no reason to keep that Feast. Same with other Feasts, so all laws dealing with those appointed days would not have been included in Torah. Many laws dealt specifically with being in the land. Since that didn't happen until after Sinai, Abraham again would not have had THOSE laws. Many laws dealt with the Temple, and with priests...neither of which was in existence in Abraham's day, so again, those laws wouldn't have applied. Plus, there was no prosecution (or judges for that matter) prior to Sinai, so those laws were not for Abraham either. (they were unique to Israel becomming a nation) However, Serving God only, not making idols, not taking his name in vain, keeping Sabbath, not stealing, bearing false witness, adultery, murder, coveting....as well as related laws...I see no reason to think these aspects of Torah were not in place from the beginning. This is why it is said Abraham kept the statutes, Torah, and commandents.

Even today FF, while I believe Torah has not been done away with, probably only 80-120 laws are applicable to us today for many reasons.

Peace.
Ken

Walstib
Jan 14th 2009, 04:23 PM
Jesus became the law.

Hi BFC,

This is one I have never heard before. Care to share your scriptures and reasoning for this?

Peace,
Joe

Firstfruits
Jan 14th 2009, 04:28 PM
Greetings FF. I am speaking about what was expected of us, what was defined as sin and what was not sin. Cain committed murder, and was punished by God. (Not man) Point is, murder was established as sin before Sinai. 4 chapters prior to the law being given to Moses, we see the Israelites not only resting on the Sabbath, but also having the preparation day, which itself is law. We also know they were not to eat the blood of an animal, another law given again later at Sinai. So there were clearly aspects of expectation by God of his people, called his Torah, in place long before it was given at Sinai.

Sure there are many laws that were not in place in Abraham's day. For example, aside from Sabbath, I am not sure there were other appointed days in place as the reason for them had not yet been made manifest. Passover related to what happened while still in captivity under Pharaoh, so Abraham would obviously had no knowledge of this and no reason to keep that Feast. Same with other Feasts, so all laws dealing with those appointed days would not have been included in Torah. Many laws dealt specifically with being in the land. Since that didn't happen until after Sinai, Abraham again would not have had THOSE laws. Many laws dealt with the Temple, and with priests...neither of which was in existence in Abraham's day, so again, those laws wouldn't have applied. Plus, there was no prosecution (or judges for that matter) prior to Sinai, so those laws were not for Abraham either. (they were unique to Israel becomming a nation) However, Serving God only, not making idols, not taking his name in vain, keeping Sabbath, not stealing, bearing false witness, adultery, murder, coveting....as well as related laws...I see no reason to think these aspects of Torah were not in place from the beginning. This is why it is said Abraham kept the statutes, Torah, and commandents.

Even today FF, while I believe Torah has not been done away with, probably only 80-120 laws are applicable to us today for many reasons.

Peace.
Ken

If Christ came to fulfil/keep the commandments, what was his purpose for coming?

For what reason did he die?

Knowing that Jesus is righteous, was the law for Christ?

Since Jesus could not sin, what did keeping the law prove?

Firstfruits

kenrank
Jan 14th 2009, 04:43 PM
If Christ came to fulfil/keep the commandments, what was his purpose for coming?

The wage of Adam's sin was death and was passed on to all that follow. "Death" was not part of the original plan, though I am sure God knew we would fall away before it happened. Nevertheless, since sin entered the world by a man, it could only be reconciled by a man. But it had to be one who knew no sin. Since Yahushua did not have sin passed on to him by his Father (The Sinless Spirit of God was the Father), he was born without sin and then sinned not...against that which defines sin, Torah. Thus, he fulfilled Torah in not sinning against it, AND...defeated death, the wage of sin, by not sinning. He came to save us from death.


For what reason did he die?

In dying, and in raising from the dead, he defeated death and hell and took the keys to boot. While I have always seen Yahushua as a sacrifice FF, in reality, he really was not. While he sacrificed himself for us, he was not a sacrifice as say, a lamb would have been. He was not slain on an alter, not inspected by priests, killed outside the gates.

BTW, did you know that "Calvary" the hill or mountain he was killed on, was most likely the Mt. of Olives? Crazy huh? I can support such craziness though.


Knowing that Jesus is righteous, was the law for Christ?

Trick question, but a good one. While I know Shaul said the law was not for the righteous, that doesn't mean the righteous did not have to keep the law. They were righteous because they were already obediant to it. it was those who walked in lawlessness that the Law was for. Furthermore, even if his death did away with the Law, a notion you know I don't believe, while he walked the earth, it was most certainly in effect. So if he lived a sinless life, that means that no command or law found in Torah was broken by him. Even the plucking of the ears of corn, which many point to as a breaking of Sabbath law, was not according to Torah. Plucking and selling, or plucking to later sell, was breaking the law. Plucking and eating was not.


Since Jesus could not sin, what did keeping the law prove? Firstfruits

That is what defined him as not sinning. He didn't murder because the Torah said not to. He didn't steal because Torah said not to. What is sin and what isn't sin is what Torah is, a defining of what God expects, and does not expect, of his people.

Peace and blessings.
Ken

Emanate
Jan 14th 2009, 05:49 PM
Knowing that Jesus is righteous, was the law for Christ?

Since Jesus could not sin, what did keeping the law prove?

Firstfruits


Torah made flesh "these commandments are righteousness for you" So obviously Y'shua is Torah made flesh.

What scripture says that Messiah "could not" sin?

Firstfruits
Jan 14th 2009, 07:38 PM
The wage of Adam's sin was death and was passed on to all that follow. "Death" was not part of the original plan, though I am sure God knew we would fall away before it happened. Nevertheless, since sin entered the world by a man, it could only be reconciled by a man. But it had to be one who knew no sin. Since Yahushua did not have sin passed on to him by his Father (The Sinless Spirit of God was the Father), he was born without sin and then sinned not...against that which defines sin, Torah. Thus, he fulfilled Torah in not sinning against it, AND...defeated death, the wage of sin, by not sinning. He came to save us from death.



In dying, and in raising from the dead, he defeated death and hell and took the keys to boot. While I have always seen Yahushua as a sacrifice FF, in reality, he really was not. While he sacrificed himself for us, he was not a sacrifice as say, a lamb would have been. He was not slain on an alter, not inspected by priests, killed outside the gates.

BTW, did you know that "Calvary" the hill or mountain he was killed on, was most likely the Mt. of Olives? Crazy huh? I can support such craziness though.



Trick question, but a good one. While I know Shaul said the law was not for the righteous, that doesn't mean the righteous did not have to keep the law. They were righteous because they were already obediant to it. it was those who walked in lawlessness that the Law was for. Furthermore, even if his death did away with the Law, a notion you know I don't believe, while he walked the earth, it was most certainly in effect. So if he lived a sinless life, that means that no command or law found in Torah was broken by him. Even the plucking of the ears of corn, which many point to as a breaking of Sabbath law, was not according to Torah. Plucking and selling, or plucking to later sell, was breaking the law. Plucking and eating was not.



That is what defined him as not sinning. He didn't murder because the Torah said not to. He didn't steal because Torah said not to. What is sin and what isn't sin is what Torah is, a defining of what God expects, and does not expect, of his people.

Peace and blessings.
Ken

I would have said that according to the following that Jesus did not sin because he was born of God and was God and was one with the Spirit.

Gal 5:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Gal 5:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Gal 5:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Gal 5:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Gal 5:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Gal 5:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Rom 13:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Gal 5:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Have we therefore put on Christ?

Firstfruits