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Walstib
Jan 3rd 2009, 02:10 PM
How is Godís love a thing one can posses?

And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them."(Joh 17:26 NKJV)

Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us. (Rom 5:5 NKJV)

Now are these speaking of a love for God? Consider...

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? (Rom 8:35 NKJV)

What is the love of God, compared to a love for God?

By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." (Joh 13:35 NKJV)

Peace,
Joe

matthew7and1
Jan 3rd 2009, 02:22 PM
How is Godís love a thing one can posses?

And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them."(Joh 17:26 NKJV)

Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us. (Rom 5:5 NKJV)

It can be a noun or verb.... To give love (noun) is the same to "to love" (verb) God loves us all. To be filled with His love is to love Him in return and accept His love.



Now are these speaking of a love for God? Consider...

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? (Rom 8:35 NKJV)

I would say that this verse is refering to the fact that we are the recipients of God's love through all the fires of this life, that just because we come upon tribulation doesn't mean we are un-loved




What is the love of God, compared to a love for God?
By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." (Joh 13:35 NKJV)



Love of God: Always given by God to us, unconditional
Love for God: When we accept Gods love for us and do all that we can to please Him

Walstib
Jan 3rd 2009, 03:42 PM
It can be a noun or verb.... To give love (noun) is the same to "to love" (verb) God loves us all. To be filled with His love is to love Him in return and accept His love.True, but when it is a noun it is not in action, I think.?. It exists without action. God loves us all but not all have the love of god.

But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you. (Joh 5:42 NKJV)

I am trying to figure out why it would be "the love of God" and not "our love for God" if it is something we are responsible for having and not something we receive.

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen. (2Co 13:14 NKJV)

The grace of the Lord Jesus and Communion of the Holy Spirit are not things of our own, why would the love of God be our love for Him other times it is used? I myself am somewhat confused here, sorry if I am going a direction you did not imply.
I would say that this verse is refering to the fact that we are the recipients of God's love through all the fires of this life, that just because we come upon tribulation doesn't mean we are un-lovedI agree. though having the love of Christ was what I was thinking about with the verse. That it is His love for us and not our love for Him. And comparing that to the verses that speak of the love of God, therby not being our love, but His love we posess.
Love of God: Always given by God to us, unconditionalAgree.

But whoever has this world's goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?(1Jn 3:17 NKJV)

So if it is something of God given to us, what does it mean toward our standing in Christ to have God's own love abiding in us?

Peace,
Joe

matthew7and1
Jan 3rd 2009, 03:57 PM
I think that's the nature of being human. That God has created us in His image and that we innately possess a piece of His love because he breathed life into us. It is weather we are using it, giving it, allowing ourselves to recieve it in each instance. In addition, I am one who believes that a bible verse can have a different application to each person or situation. NOT that it is open to interpretation per say, but that it has multiple meanings and applications and that it why it is a living book.

mikebr
Jan 3rd 2009, 04:16 PM
How is Godís love a thing one can posses?

And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them."(Joh 17:26 NKJV)

Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us. (Rom 5:5 NKJV)

Now are these speaking of a love for God? Consider...

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? (Rom 8:35 NKJV)

What is the love of God, compared to a love for God?

By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." (Joh 13:35 NKJV)

Peace,
Joe

He is Love. Ephesians says to know the love of Christ is to be filled with all the fullness of God.

Walstib
Jan 3rd 2009, 05:56 PM
I think that's the nature of being human. That God has created us in His image and that we innately possess a piece of His love because he breathed life into us. It is weather we are using it, giving it, allowing ourselves to recieve it in each instance. I hear you. I had just never really considered the love of God itself as something we can possess. I saw Him loving us, and us loving or not loving Him. Still I wonder if all have the the love of God in them. The ability to recieve it sure, but I am not looking to argue with you. A once having his love always having his love debate :P

I was thinking about me and my wife. I have love for her, and I can be loving her, but does she ever possess my love of her in her? Can she abide in the love of Joe?

I don't know if I am playing semantic games, I do know I am still unsetled in my understanding.
In addition, I am one who believes that a bible verse can have a different application to each person or situation. NOT that it is open to interpretation per say, but that it has multiple meanings and applications and that it why it is a living book. I agree but am left wondering if you figure I am holding the antithesis to your point in the way I am looking into this.

Peace,
Joe

matthew7and1
Jan 3rd 2009, 06:33 PM
I hear you. I had just never really considered the love of God itself as something we can possess. I saw Him loving us, and us loving or not loving Him. Still I wonder if all have the the love of God in them. The ability to recieve it sure, but I am not looking to argue with you. A once having his love always having his love debate :P
oh no, i don't take to debate easily. ;) but i appreciate your presenting your response this way. to address this quote though, I wouldn't call it so much something we can posssess or own, but rather something that is a part of us like a finger or toe. we don't really own our body parts, they are built in equipment... do you follow me? I hope I'm making sense. So the lthe love of God is part of our built in equipment.


I was thinking about me and my wife. I have love for her, and I can be loving her, but does she ever possess my love of her in her? Can she abide in the love of Joe?
hmmm, this is an excellent connotation. i think that she could BUT (this is gonna sound like a trick answer) only if you both love each other with the love of God. Only God's love is unconditional. It says in Corinthians:
Love is patient, love is kind.
It does not envy.
Love is never boastful, nor conceited, nor rude;
It is not self-seeking, nor easily angered.
It keeps no record of wrongdoing.
It does not delight in evil,
But rejoices in the truth.
It always protects, trusts, hopes, and preserves.
There is nothing love cannot face;
There is no limit to its faith, hope, and endurance.
In a word, there are three things that last forever:
Faith, hope, and love;
But the greatest of them all is love.
I don't believe that we, as flesh, can love in this true definition (see highlights). We aspire to it, sure. But it is by loving God, then ourselves that we can have true love for others. We just don't have perfection. So I guess I should have said that "no" she can't abide in your love because we are too bound by flesh to ever manifest the true love of God on the earth.... (OK, this is getting into some complicated logistics! :))


I don't know if I am playing semantic games, I do know I am still unsetled in my understanding.I agree but am left wondering if you figure I am holding the antithesis to your point in the way I am looking into this.

maybe it is all semantics, but i don't think it's an anti thesis. my idea is that there are many meanings to a verse based on need, person, times, etc... therefore the meaning for yuo may be in the semantics, actually satisfying my theory but leaving yours unresolved.

This is a good convo!!

Biastai
Jan 4th 2009, 04:26 AM
How is Godís love a thing one can posses?

And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them."(Joh 17:26 NKJV)

Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us. (Rom 5:5 NKJV)

Now are these speaking of a love for God? Consider...

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? (Rom 8:35 NKJV)

What is the love of God, compared to a love for God?

By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." (Joh 13:35 NKJV)

Peace,
Joe

Hmmm. Good question. And happy new year.

How about 1 Corinthians 13? Norman Snaith writes that the love being described in that passage as being agape, God's love for man. It explains why the standards are so high and outreaches brotherly love greatly. Paul's verses about childhood opposed to manhood and partial knowledge versus full knowledge in the passage's closing statements seem to infer this is something that can only be grasped fully when we are face-to-face with God, not necessarily during our lifetimes.

"If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known."
1 Corinthians 13:1-12

The question mark would be in the first three verses. Is this also agape? It seems to describe brotherly love or a love among believers.

matthew7and1
Jan 4th 2009, 12:09 PM
Hmmm. Good question. And happy new year.

How about 1 Corinthians 13? Norman Snaith writes that the love being described in that passage as being agape, God's love for man. It explains why the standards are so high and outreaches brotherly love greatly. Paul's verses about childhood opposed to manhood and partial knowledge versus full knowledge in the passage's closing statements seem to infer this is something that can only be grasped fully when we are face-to-face with God, not necessarily during our lifetimes.

"If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known."
1 Corinthians 13:1-12

The question mark would be in the first three verses. Is this also agape? It seems to describe brotherly love or a love among believers.
This is an excellent point! i'm so gload you've added another demension to this convo!!!

Walstib
Jan 5th 2009, 02:45 AM
HI,
to address this quote though, I wouldn't call it so much something we can posssess or own, but rather something that is a part of us like a finger or toe. we don't really own our body parts, they are built in equipment... do you follow me? I hope I'm making sense. So the love of God is part of our built in equipment. I am following you now I think. I can see how, as Mike pointed out, God is Love, and God is Spirit, and we have a spirit, and this is life from God, therefore all innately have a part of the love of God in them. I can agree with that.

Where I am thinking is with the first two verses I posted, and the one about some not having the love of God in them. There seems to be a receiving of the love of God separate from the above context.
hmmm, this is an excellent connotation. i think that she could BUT (this is gonna sound like a trick answer) only if you both love each other with the love of God. Only God's love is unconditional. It says in Corinthians: ...I don't believe that we, as flesh, can love in this true definition (see highlights).I guess in my thinking the last while I have been wondering if agape love is "pefect love" but that perfect love is qualified by "the agape of God". Meaning by plain definition, as the Greek language did not, *I think* have the word agape to reflect the love of God, but simply love that asks nothing in return. I would think unsaved Greek parents would still agape their children though not as perfectly as God loves His children. At the very least with the same consistency as the verses you posted.

So where am I goingÖ. Being given the love of God, we can base our actions with that love, because our own agape love is inconsistent and muddled by the flesh. I believe in agreement with your comments.
1929065 We aspire to it, sure. But it is by loving God, then ourselves that we can have true love for others. We just don't have perfection. Makes me think of this verseÖ

But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.(1Jn 2:5 NKJV)

That said I am still thinkingÖ
So I guess I should have said that "no" she can't abide in your love because we are too bound by flesh to ever manifest the true love of God on the earth.... Interesting you use the word manifestÖ

In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us. By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. (1Jn 4:9-13 NKJV)

I think there is a strong connection between the love of God, and the Holy Spirit. Both in a way being things *The Holy Spirit being a person, but in a way a person is a thing.* we might not possess like we own them, but receive as gifts.

Peace,
Joe

Walstib
Jan 7th 2009, 02:05 AM
And happy new year.

Paul's verses about childhood opposed to manhood and partial knowledge versus full knowledge in the passage's closing statements seem to infer this is something that can only be grasped fully when we are face-to-face with God, not necessarily during our lifetimes.

Happy new year to you!

Children eh? Makes me think of how well a child can demonstrate so many of the qualities of love discussed in the chapter without the prejudices that come with adulthood. Though again, the consistency mentioned is hard to imagine this side of heaven. Thankfully the Love of God is consistent in every way.

To be childlike but not childish... something I forget to aim for some days..

Thanks for the post,
Joe

Biastai
Jan 8th 2009, 04:18 AM
Happy new year to you!

Children eh? Makes me think of how well a child can demonstrate so many of the qualities of love discussed in the chapter without the prejudices that come with adulthood. Though again, the consistency mentioned is hard to imagine this side of heaven. Thankfully the Love of God is consistent in every way.

To be childlike but not childish... something I forget to aim for some days..

Thanks for the post,
Joe

No fair. Your experience as a father gives you the benefit of an additional vantage point. :idea:

Your original post got me thinking...again!

When you wrote "love for God," I was struck at the lack of references to man's love for God in the New Testament. Now, we all know that Christ explicitly talked about it when describing the two greatest commandments...

"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."
Mark 12:29-31

However, this is what is commanded by the Law, and we utterly failed to obey that. So..has man loved God at all? This commandment demands a complete love, so "kind of" loving the Lord doesn't count for anything. Man has enough trouble obeying the commandment of brotherly love. The epistles have their share of believers getting reviled for a lack of even brotherly love (most of 1 Cor, James 2, 1 John 3:11-24).

I'll state there is no man's love for God (not by God's standards). The love of God however has reached across the infinite chasm which separates us, and He graciously accepts as a substitute our faith through Jesus. It's nothing in itself meritorious since it is simply a confession of our failure.

Walstib
Jan 9th 2009, 01:10 AM
Hi Biastai,

Well if I remember correctly you are not so far away yourself! A face to face father anyway;) My prayers are with your family.

Thank you for the post. I do agree. It definitely filled in some blanks in my ponderings and I was blessed by it.

Peace,
Joe

Friend of I AM
Jan 9th 2009, 03:39 PM
How is God’s love a thing one can posses?

And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them."(Joh 17:26 NKJV)

Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us. (Rom 5:5 NKJV)

Now are these speaking of a love for God? Consider...

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? (Rom 8:35 NKJV)

What is the love of God, compared to a love for God?

By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." (Joh 13:35 NKJV)

Peace,
Joe

Obeying the commandments...those being..Love God, love one another. Obeying these two commandments demonstrates the love of God within you.