PDA

View Full Version : The Angel of the Lord is Jesus?



reformedct
Jan 3rd 2009, 07:09 PM
Many times in the OT there is mention of The Angel of the Lord. He is always attributed with deity. When Jacob wrestled with the Angel of the Lord, he asked what His name was. The angel of course did not give him His name, and then Jacob said he had been face to face with God


is the Angel of the Lord Jesus? it cant be Gabriel or Michael because the angel is many times reffered to as the Lord or God.

Prophet Daniel
Jan 3rd 2009, 07:18 PM
Jesus said "you will see angels ascending and descending upon the Son of man" to Nathanael Jn1:51

Yes it was Jesus.

Also the Angel called himself "wonderfull" Judges13:17-18 Isa9:6

divaD
Jan 4th 2009, 01:26 AM
Many times in the OT there is mention of The Angel of the Lord. He is always attributed with deity. When Jacob wrestled with the Angel of the Lord, he asked what His name was. The angel of course did not give him His name, and then Jacob said he had been face to face with God


is the Angel of the Lord Jesus? it cant be Gabriel or Michael because the angel is many times reffered to as the Lord or God.



Personally, I don't believe 'the angel of the LORD' is referring to Jesus. But if it is, not every case where this phrase is used could possibly be referring to Jesus. Sometimes in the same verse. the angel of the LORD is also identified as 'an' angel of the LORD, as well as the angel of the LORD. An example would be Judges 13:16.

Judges 13:16 *And the angel of the LORD said unto Manoah, Though thou detain me, I will not eat of thy bread: and if thou wilt offer a burnt offering, thou must offer it unto the LORD. For Manoah knew not that he was an angel of the LORD

My point is this. If Jesus was 'the' angel of the LORD, I don't believe that He would also be identified as 'an' angel of the LORD also. Do a simple phrase search for 'angel of the LORD' and notice how this phrase is used throughout Scripture. This phrase is even used in the NT as well.

Keep in mind, this is just my opinion only. I'm not claiming to be 100% right or wrong.

markdrums
Jan 4th 2009, 01:32 AM
Many times in the OT there is mention of The Angel of the Lord. He is always attributed with deity. When Jacob wrestled with the Angel of the Lord, he asked what His name was. The angel of course did not give him His name, and then Jacob said he had been face to face with God


is the Angel of the Lord Jesus? it cant be Gabriel or Michael because the angel is many times reffered to as the Lord or God.


From what I've read & studied, my personal opinion is that
"The Angel of the Lord" is indeed a "Pre-incarnate" appearance of Jesus.
There's no "name" like we see with Gabriel, or Michael, etc.....

No other angel is referred to in this manner either.

We know Jesus was/is "the Word"; and in the beginning was The Word, And the Word was WITH God, and the Word WAS God."
Jesus is the Word which becalme flesh.

Jesus has ALWAYS existed. Jesus IS LORD.
SO, "Angel of the Lord" I believe is a description of his appearances to men prior to his birth / and becoming flesh.

divaD
Jan 4th 2009, 02:12 AM
From what I've read & studied, my personal opinion is that
"The Angel of the Lord" is indeed a "Pre-incarnate" appearance of Jesus.
There's no "name" like we see with Gabriel, or Michael, etc.....

No other angel is referred to in this manner either.

We know Jesus was/is "the Word"; and in the beginning was The Word, And the Word was WITH God, and the Word WAS God."
Jesus is the Word which becalme flesh.

Jesus has ALWAYS existed. Jesus IS LORD.

SO, "Angel of the Lord" I believe is a description of his appearances to men prior to his birth / and becoming flesh.






Luke 2:7 And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.
8 And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.
9 And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid.
10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

Verse 10-11 states: 10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

Which angel said this? Verse 9 identifies this angel as the angel of the Lord. I would love to hear how the angel of the Lord in this passage can be Christ. Verse 7 indentifies her firstborn son as the Christ. So how can the angel of the Lord also be Christ?

paidforinfull
Jan 4th 2009, 02:28 AM
Yes, the 'Angel of the Lord' in the OT refers to Jesus Christ in His pre-incarnate form.

The Angel of the Lord speaks as God in the first Person (i.e. in Genesis 16, 22 and 31).

God bless.

reformedct
Jan 4th 2009, 04:18 AM
Personally, I don't believe 'the angel of the LORD' is referring to Jesus. But if it is, not every case where this phrase is used could possibly be referring to Jesus. Sometimes in the same verse. the angel of the LORD is also identified as 'an' angel of the LORD, as well as the angel of the LORD. An example would be Judges 13:16.

Judges 13:16 *And the angel of the LORD said unto Manoah, Though thou detain me, I will not eat of thy bread: and if thou wilt offer a burnt offering, thou must offer it unto the LORD. For Manoah knew not that he was an angel of the LORD

My point is this. If Jesus was 'the' angel of the LORD, I don't believe that He would also be identified as 'an' angel of the LORD also. Do a simple phrase search for 'angel of the LORD' and notice how this phrase is used throughout Scripture. This phrase is even used in the NT as well.

Keep in mind, this is just my opinion only. I'm not claiming to be 100% right or wrong.


hello divaD,

it is my interpretation that when it says "an" angel of the Lord it is not talking about Jesus as well. I am talking about when it says THE angel. WHen it says AN angel that could be any of the countless number of angels God created. But it seems that THE angel of the Lord is Jesus, because The angel of the Lord is also called God. Remember when Jacob wrestled with THE angel of the Lord? Afterwards he said, i have seen God face to face and lived. I dont think any regular angel could be described as being God

reformedct
Jan 4th 2009, 04:21 AM
Luke 2:7 And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.
8 And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.
9 And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid.
10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

Verse 10-11 states: 10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

Which angel said this? Verse 9 identifies this angel as the angel of the Lord. I would love to hear how the angel of the Lord in this passage can be Christ. Verse 7 indentifies her firstborn son as the Christ. So how can the angel of the Lord also be Christ?


My Bible says "an" angel of the Lord in verse 9 (ESV)

it then goes on to say the angel but not in title but just saying it like when you say The ball or The game. Like saying, hey a game is on. The game is on? Yes the game is on.

But in my Bible it doesnt give the title of THE angel of the Lord in verse 9

markedward
Jan 4th 2009, 04:34 AM
I had previously thought that "the Angel of YHWH" was the pre-incarnate Christ, but when reading in Hebrews, I noticed something I previously did not...

Hebrews 1:1-2 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

Notice the distinction the author makes:

In days "long ago" God spoke to His people through the prophets. But in "these last days" - the days that the author was living in - God was speaking to His people through His Son. The way I'm reading this, the writer that God was doing something different by speaking to His people through Jesus as opposed to the days "long ago" when He spoke to His people through the prophets.

This made me wonder whether "the Angel of YHWH" was Christ or not. I'm pretty undecided.

divaD
Jan 4th 2009, 05:23 AM
My Bible says "an" angel of the Lord in verse 9 (ESV)

it then goes on to say the angel but not in title but just saying it like when you say The ball or The game. Like saying, hey a game is on. The game is on? Yes the game is on.

But in my Bible it doesnt give the title of THE angel of the Lord in verse 9




The Bible I used was the KJV. But I did just now look that verse up in the Greek interlinear. It doesn't seem to make mention of 'the' there either. With that said, it doesn't seem to make mention of the 'the' in the Hebrew either.

I've always assumed that 'the angel of the LORD' in the OT was indeed referring to the pre-incarnate Christ. I'm not really suggesting that it is or isn't, but I don't see how, if it is indeed referring to Christ, how it could be referring to Christ every time this phrase is used.

The question that I'm wondering is this? How should we define angel here? A literal angel? A messenger?

We're told in the NT that Christ was made a little lower than the angels when He took on human form. But this doesn't mean that Christ was a literal created angel. I'm sure we all should agree with that, well except for any JWs, lol.

But if we define 'angel' as a messenger, then wouldn't Christ still have been a messenger in human form also, since He spoke and relayed what He heard the Father speak and tell Him to say? But as far as I know, nowhere in the NT is Christ ever given that title 'the angel of the Lord'.

Now if we define 'angel' as a literal angel, then aren't we in effect saying Christ is an angel and that He was created, and not that He has always existed, if we are claiming this phrase is referring to Christ pre-incarnate?


But let's get back to this title for a moment. The angel of the Lord, an angel of the Lord, angel of the Lord...however we choose to render this phrase, this phrase is used both in the OT and NT. Why should it have one meaning in the OT, and yet a different meaning in the NT? That would be like saying that 'God' means one thing in the OT, and means something entirely different in the NT.

But let's think here for a moment. There are probably countless times in the NT where Jesus seemed to be speaking in the first person, as if He were also the Father, yet we know Jesus isn't also the Father. IOW, Jesus was speaking only what the Father was telling Him to say. So why can't a literal angel of the Lord do the same thing? IOw, speaking what the Lord is commanding him to say.

The truth is, just like markedward, I'm actually undecided about this. The above is just some of the things that pounce around in my head. I'm just another one of those thinking outside of the box type.