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mikebr
Jan 4th 2009, 02:01 AM
I read this quote the other day.


Hebrew prophets such as Jeremiah (18:5-10) and Ezekiel (33:12-16) clearly teach that the outcome of prophetic judgments are conditional.



If its true and I have no doubt that it is could this mean that the judgments in Revelation could be conditional as well?

Yukerboy
Jan 4th 2009, 02:08 AM
God does not write prophecies because He doesn't know what will happen (thus making them conditional).

He writes prophecies because of His foreknowledge.

Sure, we can say it is conditional. Those of Babylon could repent and save themselves from the wrath of God.

However, they will not. God knows that and through Revelation, we know that.

mikebr
Jan 4th 2009, 02:20 AM
God does not write prophecies because He doesn't know what will happen (thus making them conditional).

He writes prophecies because of His foreknowledge.

Sure, we can say it is conditional. Those of Babylon could repent and save themselves from the wrath of God.

However, they will not. God knows that and through Revelation, we know that.


If they will not does that mean that cannot? Is Revelation giving us a picture of the lack of man's free will?

mikebr
Jan 4th 2009, 02:27 AM
...................and do you think that the events in Revelation will happen on a date that God has determined or does mankind somehow play a part, ie repenting and delaying God's judgment or that last person getting saved because the Gospel has finally been preached to all the earth?

Yukerboy
Jan 4th 2009, 02:30 AM
If they will not does that mean that cannot? Is Revelation giving us a picture of the lack of man's free will?

To those under the law, I become like one under the law. To the Jews, I became like a Jew. To those not having the law, I became like one not having the law.

The reason I say the above is so people understand I am not changing my view on free will in answering this.

Thye had the ability to repent, meaning that they could repent. However, God knew they would not repent and therefore the wrath to come will come. I say that as to one who believes in free will.

We must also understand that it is God who grants repentance. (Acts 11:18, Romans 2:4)

So to those who do not believe in free will, they could not repent for it is God that grants repentance. They were invited to come, but were not chosen to come (Matthew 22:14)

Yukerboy
Jan 4th 2009, 02:34 AM
...................and do you think that the events in Revelation will happen on a date that God has determined or does mankind somehow play a part, ie repenting and delaying God's judgment or that last person getting saved because the Gospel has finally been preached to all the earth?

Yes, I do believe that God has predetermined when everything will happen. Even the demons know there is an appointed time (Matthew 8:29)

We do not know the day or the hour (Matthew 24:36), but we know the season so that the day does not surprise us like a thief (1 Thessalonians 5:4)

mikebr
Jan 4th 2009, 02:38 AM
To those under the law, I become like one under the law. To the Jews, I became like a Jew. To those not having the law, I became like one not having the law.

The reason I say the above is so people understand I am not changing my view on free will in answering this.

Thye had the ability to repent, meaning that they could repent. However, God knew they would not repent and therefore the wrath to come will come. I say that as to one who believes in free will.

We must also understand that it is God who grants repentance. (Acts 11:18, Romans 2:4)

So to those who do not believe in free will, they could not repent for it is God that grants repentance. They were invited to come, but were not chosen to come (Matthew 22:14)

Yeah this creates somewhat of a problem for free will doesn't it.

"I'm going to judge you if you don't repent, and I'll decide if I'm going to allow you to repent."

TrustingFollower
Jan 4th 2009, 03:27 AM
To those under the law, I become like one under the law. To the Jews, I became like a Jew. To those not having the law, I became like one not having the law.

The reason I say the above is so people understand I am not changing my view on free will in answering this.

Thye had the ability to repent, meaning that they could repent. However, God knew they would not repent and therefore the wrath to come will come. I say that as to one who believes in free will.

We must also understand that it is God who grants repentance. (Acts 11:18, Romans 2:4)

So to those who do not believe in free will, they could not repent for it is God that grants repentance. They were invited to come, but were not chosen to come (Matthew 22:14)
Wow these verses are taken so far out of context that you could make them say pretty much anything you desire here. Please look at them in there full context and not make a doctrine out of a couple verses that are miss quoted to make your point.

Yukerboy
Jan 4th 2009, 03:40 AM
As I have shown before, stating "you take the verses out of context" is a euphemism for "I don't agree with the Scripture".

When Satan used Scripture, Jesus used Scripture to show his folly.

You will never see me state Scripture is taken out of context. No, I will show you through Scripture your folly.

I await.

reformedct
Jan 4th 2009, 04:27 AM
This can seem very very very confusing

we are justified by faith, given the righteousness of Christ

then we are judged by works????

it is my interpretation that yes we are justified by faith, and that true faith will lead to good works. o we arent really judged by works, but the works are evidence of who we are. you will know them by their fruit

also, ezekiel 33 is not refferring to the new covenant. If it were, it would have been quoted in the NT, like Jeremiah 31 in Hebrews 10. The NT never quotes Ezekiel 33 so i dont think it is a part of the New Covenant. Ezekiel 33 talks about personal righteousness. However under the new covenant of grace we are made righteouss by the obedience of Christ, not our own

TrustingFollower
Jan 4th 2009, 04:56 PM
To those under the law, I become like one under the law. To the Jews, I became like a Jew. To those not having the law, I became like one not having the law.

The reason I say the above is so people understand I am not changing my view on free will in answering this.

Thye had the ability to repent, meaning that they could repent. However, God knew they would not repent and therefore the wrath to come will come. I say that as to one who believes in free will.

We must also understand that it is God who grants repentance. (Acts 11:18, Romans 2:4)

So to those who do not believe in free will, they could not repent for it is God that grants repentance. They were invited to come, but were not chosen to come (Matthew 22:14)
The way you have this post stated you are showing partiality towards some of God's people. Are you not judging them and saying they are not allowed the chance to repent and heed the calling God sends to all through the Holy Spirit. Would this not make you guilty of transgressing the law rather than leaving it up to God to determine whether someone is destined to the Kingdom of God or not. We should be treating every person with the love and compassion as God shows toward us.

James 2

8 ķIf, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF," you are doing well.
9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
11 For He who said, "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT COMMIT MURDER." Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.
13 For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.

Yukerboy
Jan 4th 2009, 06:12 PM
The way you have this post stated you are showing partiality towards some of God's people. Are you not judging them and saying they are not allowed the chance to repent and heed the calling God sends to all through the Holy Spirit.

It is not showing partiality. I love those condemned to hell just as I love those who are saved.

I am saying as Jesus has said. All men are called to repent and be saved, but only few are chosen to be given repentance and be saved (Matthew 22:14). It is God that grants repentance (Acts 11:18)




James 2

8 ķIf, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF," you are doing well.
9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
11 For He who said, "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT COMMIT MURDER." Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.
13 For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.


This is all true. Speak and act like those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. But do not mistake the law of liberty for the law of sin and death.

Yuke