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reformedct
Jan 4th 2009, 09:13 PM
This has been bugging me lately.

The Bible says we are perfected forever by the sacrifice of Jesus

But it also says God scourges whom He loves.

So how is it that God sees us as perfect but at the same time sees when we sin? How can He see us sin but at the same time see us as perfect?:confused

timmyb
Jan 4th 2009, 09:36 PM
I believe it's because God sees us in light of eternity.. Whereas we only see now, God is transcendent time doesn't matter to him... God delights in us now but not necessarily in our compromise but there's a process that he takes us through... he calls things in us that are not as if they were... that's true prophecy...

So, while we are forever made righteous in Christ by his blood made perfect and sinless in God's eyes, we in our own lives must live in agreement with that that we are free and dead to sin... it's part of the flesh/spirit struggle... which are you going to agree with daily... where's your focus? your righteousness or the righteousness of God... When God says we're righteous we're righeous and by agreeing with God that he has made us righteous we are in fact warring with the flesh and the sin that is still ensnaring us without even realizing it

Brother Mark
Jan 4th 2009, 09:39 PM
This has been bugging me lately.

The Bible says we are perfected forever by the sacrifice of Jesus

But it also says God scourges whom He loves.

So how is it that God sees us as perfect but at the same time sees when we sin? How can He see us sin but at the same time see us as perfect?:confused

I think it has to do with how the body, soul and spirit appear to God. The spirit, that which is born of God, does not sin. The soul, still needs to be saved and that is the process of sanctification. As the soul learns to operate more at the will of the Spirit, then the fruit of the Spirit is more apparent.

So our spirit is perfect but our soul requires pruning and chastisement.

timmyb
Jan 4th 2009, 09:43 PM
The Beauty of the Gospel of Christ is that it exalts Christ and him making us righteous in him and purifying us... it's his work in us not us making ourselves righteous... all we say to God is yes and keep saying yes... he does the work in us... and all i do to make myself righteous is agree with him

Yukerboy
Jan 4th 2009, 09:49 PM
I think it has to do with how the body, soul and spirit appear to God. The spirit, that which is born of God, does not sin. The soul, still needs to be saved and that is the process of sanctification. As the soul learns to operate more at the will of the Spirit, then the fruit of the Spirit is more apparent.

So our spirit is perfect but our soul requires pruning and chastisement.
:agree:

Ditto, exactly, You betcha, etc., etc...

markdrums
Jan 4th 2009, 09:50 PM
Good replies so far!

I'll just say that I believe we're all "tested" from time to time. Because the end result is always a gain of wisdom. Whether we learn "the hard way" or by a successful "mission" so to speak.

(Believe me, I've had plenty of hard lessons in my life! :) LOLOL!! )

Our sins are paid for in full by the blood of Christ, forgiven & remembered no more. Yes we continue to sin, because of the flesh and it's need for satisfaction... but overall, they're gone. That's how we can stand as "righteous" before God when we're eventually "face to face". Our sins are covered.

But remember, we are a work in progress. And thankfully God knows that!
:)

VerticalReality
Jan 4th 2009, 09:59 PM
This has been bugging me lately.

The Bible says we are perfected forever by the sacrifice of Jesus

But it also says God scourges whom He loves.

So how is it that God sees us as perfect but at the same time sees when we sin? How can He see us sin but at the same time see us as perfect?:confused

God chastens us when we deliberately and knowledgeably sin against Him. The reason God the Father sees us as perfect is because the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us. Jesus Christ is our Advocate and He makes intercession for us. However, if we sin willfully we are counting the blood of the Lord as a common thing and we are insulting the Spirit of grace. Therefore, the Word says in such a situation there is no sacrifice for our sins because even though we know the truth we have rejected it and sinned anyway. When we do that we can expect judgment to come . . . which is the chastening of the Lord.

Funny you brought this up because I just preached on this today.



Hebrews 10:26-31
For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

timmyb
Jan 4th 2009, 10:00 PM
Good replies so far!

I'll just say that I believe we're all "tested" from time to time. Because the end result is always a gain of wisdom. Whether we learn "the hard way" or by a successful "mission" so to speak.

(Believe me, I've had plenty of hard lessons in my life! :) LOLOL!! )

Our sins are paid for in full by the blood of Christ, forgiven & remembered no more. Yes we continue to sin, because of the flesh and it's need for satisfaction... but overall, they're gone. That's how we can stand as "righteous" before God when we're eventually "face to face". Our sins are covered.

But remember, we are a work in progress. And thankfully God knows that!
:)

the work in progress is not an attribute to God's patience, it's an attribute to our patience with ourselves... I don't believe that God is in a hurry to make us perfect, his desire is to make himself known to the world and especially to us... we in our western mindsets would like to think that if God is going to do something he better do it quick... we like to get things done whereas God has been infinitely patient and not in too big a hurry with man at large or with man as an individual...

our mistakes and our sin is, I believe a result of our unbelief that God has made us righteous, but the awesome thing is that in less than a quarter of a half of a second after messing up and choosing sin and our own ways just by a simple yes we position ourselves right back under the grace of God, the blood of Jesus and the righteousness of Christ just by choosing that he makes us righteous and by choosing to behold that righteousness of God within us we find ourselves becoming that without even realizing it... keep in mind it's the righteousness of God and his glory that he's revealing inside of sinful depraved man... If I were God i would hurry up the process and just do it and save man alot of debate and heartache and futility of working for it... but thank the Lord that he has taken his time and I have a testimony of his righteousness over time... God seems to really enjoy the process... but then again he has no concept of time

markdrums
Jan 4th 2009, 10:26 PM
the work in progress is not an attribute to God's patience, it's an attribute to our patience with ourselves... I don't believe that God is in a hurry to make us perfect, his desire is to make himself known to the world and especially to us... we in our western mindsets would like to think that if God is going to do something he better do it quick... we like to get things done whereas God has been infinitely patient and not in too big a hurry with man at large or with man as an individual...

our mistakes and our sin is, I believe a result of our unbelief that God has made us righteous, but the awesome thing is that in less than a quarter of a half of a second after messing up and choosing sin and our own ways just by a simple yes we position ourselves right back under the grace of God, the blood of Jesus and the righteousness of Christ just by choosing that he makes us righteous and by choosing to behold that righteousness of God within us we find ourselves becoming that without even realizing it... keep in mind it's the righteousness of God and his glory that he's revealing inside of sinful depraved man... If I were God i would hurry up the process and just do it and save man alot of debate and heartache and futility of working for it... but thank the Lord that he has taken his time and I have a testimony of his righteousness over time... God seems to really enjoy the process... but then again he has no concept of time

Great point on the "time" issue!
Since God is OUTSIDE of time, the results of forgiveness, & covering are virtually instant in his eyes.

The main thing to keep in mind is LOVE.
even when we disobey, his love for us is unwavering.

Like a parent/child relationship. When my daughter disobeys the rules we set, whether it's attributed to being "young" or just a blatant "I don't want to do that" attitude, my love for here never falters either..... I may be momentarily disappointed, but I also know she's learning. AND, under my guidance to boot! ;)

I may have gotten slightly off topic.... but I think I'm still somewhat on the same track here.... LOL!

Make sense?

Anyway, (once again) I think you hit a good point with God, and his relation to time & space.

Great addition!

timmyb
Jan 4th 2009, 10:34 PM
Great point on the "time" issue!
Since God is OUTSIDE of time, the results of forgiveness, & covering are virtually instant in his eyes.

The main thing to keep in mind is LOVE.
even when we disobey, his love for us is unwavering.

Like a parent/child relationship. When my daughter disobeys the rules we set, whether it's attributed to being "young" or just a blatant "I don't want to do that" attitude, my love for here never falters either..... I may be momentarily disappointed, but I also know she's learning. AND, under my guidance to boot! ;)

I may have gotten slightly off topic.... but I think I'm still somewhat on the same track here.... LOL!

Make sense?

Anyway, (once again) I think you hit a good point with God, and his relation to time & space.

Great addition!

thank you very much for the props my friend...

just because we have a desire to be like him it gives God the leverage to do with us as we like...

song of solomon 4:9 says we ravish his heart with one glance of our eyes... just because we look at him, he knows the weakness of our frame he sympathizes with our weakness that's why he made a way for us, our job is to do what we were made to do, be intimate with God... he does the hard part

markdrums
Jan 4th 2009, 10:40 PM
thank you very much for the props my friend...

just because we have a desire to be like him it gives God the leverage to do with us as we like...

song of solomon 4:9 says we ravish his heart with one glance of our eyes... just because we look at him, he knows the weakness of our frame he sympathizes with our weakness that's why he made a way for us, our job is to do what we were made to do, be intimate with God... he does the hard part

I'll get all "Old School Ghetto" on ya' for my reply....

Ready??


"WORD!!!!"

:lol:

timmyb
Jan 4th 2009, 10:45 PM
I'll get all "Old School Ghetto" on ya' for my reply....

Ready??


"WORD!!!!"

:lol:

i got one better

RIGHTEOUS!!!

reformedct
Jan 4th 2009, 10:48 PM
i got one better

RIGHTEOUS!!!


OK you two i think thats enough haha:hug:

timmyb
Jan 4th 2009, 10:55 PM
OK you two i think thats enough haha:hug:

aww come on man.. you never let us have any fun.. :P

holyrokker
Jan 4th 2009, 11:47 PM
This has been bugging me lately.

The Bible says we are perfected forever by the sacrifice of Jesus

Does the Bible really say that?

Where?

timmyb
Jan 4th 2009, 11:56 PM
Does the Bible really say that?

Where?

the verse that comes to my mind is: Romans 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

reformedct
Jan 5th 2009, 12:41 AM
Does the Bible really say that?

Where?


Hebrews 10:14

For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified

:D

Butch5
Jan 5th 2009, 02:00 AM
This has been bugging me lately.

The Bible says we are perfected forever by the sacrifice of Jesus

But it also says God scourges whom He loves.

So how is it that God sees us as perfect but at the same time sees when we sin? How can He see us sin but at the same time see us as perfect?:confused

You have to look closely at the context where the word perfect is used. Many times the Greek word rendered perfect, is better rendered complete or mature.


Hebrews 10:14 ( KJV ) 14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Thayer’s Greek Definitions

G5048 τελειόω teleioō Thayer Definition: 1) to make perfect, complete 1a) to carry through completely, to accomplish, finish, bring to an end 2) to complete (perfect) 2a) add what is yet wanting in order to render a thing full 2b) to be found perfect 3) to bring to the end (goal) proposed 4) to accomplish 4a) bring to a close or fulfilment by event 4a1) of the prophecies of the scriptures

The Complete Word Study Dictionary: New Testament

G5048. τελειόω teleioō; contracted teleiō, fut. teleiōsō, from teleios (G5046), complete, mature. To complete, make perfect by reaching the intended goal.

It's not that God looks at us as perfect, in the sense that we are flawless.

Christ has brought it to completion.

BroRog
Jan 5th 2009, 02:07 AM
This has been bugging me lately.

The Bible says we are perfected forever by the sacrifice of Jesus

But it also says God scourges whom He loves.

So how is it that God sees us as perfect but at the same time sees when we sin? How can He see us sin but at the same time see us as perfect?:confused

Two things.

1. Our term "perfect", i.e flawless, which we got from the Middle Ages, is not what the Bible means by "perfect." Much of the time the term translated "perfect" is better understood as complete or mature. (Just as Butch has already said.)

2. The idea that God deceives himself isn't tenable given the many passages of scripture that say otherwise. God sees us the way we really are.

Walstib
Jan 5th 2009, 03:31 AM
So how is it that God sees us as perfect but at the same time sees when we sin? How can He see us sin but at the same time see us as perfect?:confused

This verse is one that answers many of these kinds of questions for me.

(as it is written, "I have made you a father of many nations"*) in the presence of Him whom he believed--God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; (Rom 4:17 NKJV)

God has every right to call things that do not exist as though they do. I mean... He is the almighty sovereign God. ;)

Peace,
Joe

Extra...

"To whom then will you liken Me, Or to whom shall I be equal?" says the Holy One. Lift up your eyes on high, And see who has created these things, Who brings out their host by number; He calls them all by name, By the greatness of His might And the strength of His power; Not one is missing. Why do you say, O Jacob, And speak, O Israel: "My way is hidden from the Lord, And my just claim is passed over by my God"? Have you not known? Have you not heard? The everlasting God, the Lord, The Creator of the ends of the earth, Neither faints nor is weary. His understanding is unsearchable. He gives power to the weak, And to those who have no might He increases strength. (Isa 40:25-29 NKJV)

saved and know it
Jan 5th 2009, 03:33 AM
Does God really see us as perfect?
This has been bugging me lately.

The Bible says we are perfected forever by the sacrifice of Jesus

But it also says God scourges whom He loves.

So how is it that God sees us as perfect but at the same time sees when we sin? How can He see us sin but at the same time see us as perfect?:confused

Being new on this forum, I feel like a new kid on the block. However, I`m impressed with some of the questions being asked. I hereby submit for your consideration some thoughts in relation to your question.

The passage of scripture that you are quoting is Hebrews 10:14 `For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified`. It is a beautiful verse.
First, before commenting on the verse itself, I want to point out that when a person receives Christ as Saviour (become a christian), they are accepted in the Beloved (Ephes 1:6). What does this mean. It means that God sees us in Christ. He has placed us in Christ (1 Cor 1:30) But of Him (that is God the Father) are ye in Christ... What I am saying is that, positionally before God, we are perfect, righteous and holy. We are a holy people Peter says.(1 Petr 2:9) However, there is an aspect of the christian life which is conditional. You need to be careful that you do not mix the two concepts. What we are positionally before God may not necessarily be in keeping with the way we are behaving in our day-to-day experience. I can be away from the Lord in my daily living but I am still accepted in the Beloved. My salvation is permanent. I am one of those that do not believe in the falling way doctrine. Saved today and lost tomorrow. The bible never teaches that. However that is a another subject. I am familiar with Hebrews 6 and 10 that is often quoted as to losing your salvation but again it is another subject.
So now, what does Heb 10v14 mean. The emphasis is on the one sacrifice and that sacrifice is the death of Christ on the cross of Calvary. It replaces all OT sacrifices. God has done away with the animal sacrifices of the old economy. (Hebrews 10:12) Upon His atoning death He has accomplished the will of God and procured our sanctification (Heb 10:10). The will of God toward us is essentially a gracious, redeeming will, recovering us from our fallen condition and effecting our complete sanctification. When you come to verse 14 it is an enlargement of what was stated in verse 10. There is no suggestion of an increase in the sanctification. The perfecting is not the perfecting of sanctification, it is the realization by the sanctified (all true believers) of the effectual and permanent character of what has been accomplished for them by that offering. Christ has thereby provided for us (believers) all that we need. They (the believers) can add nothing to it.
Now when you come to Heb 12, this is the practical side of the christian life. Because we are children of God, does not mean that we are perfect in the practical sense. Remember, we still have the sin principle in us. We will never be rid of it until the Lord comes or we die. We fail as christians and we sin against the Lord but that does not affect our standing (position) before God as saints sanctified and perfect in His sight. He sees us in Christ (Ephes 1:6; 1 Cor 1:30)
He loves us not for what we are but despite what we are. Always remember that!
In Heb 12 the word chastening denotes the training of a child, including instruction; suggesting the christian discipline that regulates character. The chastening can be either by rebuke or by corrective dealing. It is done in love by our heavenly Father. Even a natural Father, in love, (I hope) will discipline the child by taking corrective dealings with the child.(see verse 7,8) So in like manner our heavenly Father does it with two outcomes in mind... 1) v.10 that we may be partakers of His holiness (to be like God, holy as He is holy, is our greatest possible profit) 2) v. 11 afterward (as a result of His divine and loving chastening) it yieldeth peaceable fruit unto them that have been exercised thereby, even the fruit of righteousness. Notice I underlined to them that have been exercised thereby. Often believers become bitter when God works in their lives. God may be bring sickness or even the death of a love one into our lives to chasten us. Also know that just because adverse circumstances come into our lives does not mean that we are living wrong lives necessarily but it may be to draw us closer to Himself. A deeper walk with God.
I said enough for now. I hope this helps.
The Lord bless and keep you.

reformedct
Jan 5th 2009, 04:53 PM
Does God really see us as perfect?
This has been bugging me lately.

The Bible says we are perfected forever by the sacrifice of Jesus

But it also says God scourges whom He loves.

So how is it that God sees us as perfect but at the same time sees when we sin? How can He see us sin but at the same time see us as perfect?:confused

Being new on this forum, I feel like a new kid on the block. However, I`m impressed with some of the questions being asked. I hereby submit for your consideration some thoughts in relation to your question.

The passage of scripture that you are quoting is Hebrews 10:14 `For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified`. It is a beautiful verse.
First, before commenting on the verse itself, I want to point out that when a person receives Christ as Saviour (become a christian), they are accepted in the Beloved (Ephes 1:6). What does this mean. It means that God sees us in Christ. He has placed us in Christ (1 Cor 1:30) But of Him (that is God the Father) are ye in Christ... What I am saying is that, positionally before God, we are perfect, righteous and holy. We are a holy people Peter says.(1 Petr 2:9) However, there is an aspect of the christian life which is conditional. You need to be careful that you do not mix the two concepts. What we are positionally before God may not necessarily be in keeping with the way we are behaving in our day-to-day experience. I can be away from the Lord in my daily living but I am still accepted in the Beloved. My salvation is permanent. I am one of those that do not believe in the falling way doctrine. Saved today and lost tomorrow. The bible never teaches that. However that is a another subject. I am familiar with Hebrews 6 and 10 that is often quoted as to losing your salvation but again it is another subject.
So now, what does Heb 10v14 mean. The emphasis is on the one sacrifice and that sacrifice is the death of Christ on the cross of Calvary. It replaces all OT sacrifices. God has done away with the animal sacrifices of the old economy. (Hebrews 10:12) Upon His atoning death He has accomplished the will of God and procured our sanctification (Heb 10:10). The will of God toward us is essentially a gracious, redeeming will, recovering us from our fallen condition and effecting our complete sanctification. When you come to verse 14 it is an enlargement of what was stated in verse 10. There is no suggestion of an increase in the sanctification. The perfecting is not the perfecting of sanctification, it is the realization by the sanctified (all true believers) of the effectual and permanent character of what has been accomplished for them by that offering. Christ has thereby provided for us (believers) all that we need. They (the believers) can add nothing to it.
Now when you come to Heb 12, this is the practical side of the christian life. Because we are children of God, does not mean that we are perfect in the practical sense. Remember, we still have the sin principle in us. We will never be rid of it until the Lord comes or we die. We fail as christians and we sin against the Lord but that does not affect our standing (position) before God as saints sanctified and perfect in His sight. He sees us in Christ (Ephes 1:6; 1 Cor 1:30)
He loves us not for what we are but despite what we are. Always remember that!
In Heb 12 the word chastening denotes the training of a child, including instruction; suggesting the christian discipline that regulates character. The chastening can be either by rebuke or by corrective dealing. It is done in love by our heavenly Father. Even a natural Father, in love, (I hope) will discipline the child by taking corrective dealings with the child.(see verse 7,8) So in like manner our heavenly Father does it with two outcomes in mind... 1) v.10 that we may be partakers of His holiness (to be like God, holy as He is holy, is our greatest possible profit) 2) v. 11 afterward (as a result of His divine and loving chastening) it yieldeth peaceable fruit unto them that have been exercised thereby, even the fruit of righteousness. Notice I underlined to them that have been exercised thereby. Often believers become bitter when God works in their lives. God may be bring sickness or even the death of a love one into our lives to chasten us. Also know that just because adverse circumstances come into our lives does not mean that we are living wrong lives necessarily but it may be to draw us closer to Himself. A deeper walk with God.
I said enough for now. I hope this helps.
The Lord bless and keep you.


thank you very muh for the comment this helped me a lot!:cool:

thethinker
Jan 13th 2009, 12:28 AM
This has been bugging me lately.

The Bible says we are perfected forever by the sacrifice of Jesus

But it also says God scourges whom He loves.

So how is it that God sees us as perfect but at the same time sees when we sin? How can He see us sin but at the same time see us as perfect?:confused
God sees us as perfect in reference to the law because Christ met all its demands. Therefore, He never sees us sin.

Who told you that God sees us sin?

reformedct
Jan 13th 2009, 04:48 PM
God sees us as perfect in reference to the law because Christ met all its demands. Therefore, He never sees us sin.

Who told you that God sees us sin?

well what i meant was that in Christ we become the righteousness of God, however at the same time He disciplines us and scourges us. So if we are perfect in His sight how can he scourge/discipline us, but i understand better now. We are righteous because of our faith and then God works in us to bring about His practical righteousness in our daily lives (sanctification)

Jemand
Jan 13th 2009, 06:53 PM
This has been bugging me lately.

The Bible says we are perfected forever by the sacrifice of Jesus

But it also says God scourges whom He loves.

So how is it that God sees us as perfect but at the same time sees when we sin? How can He see us sin but at the same time see us as perfect?:confused

God sees in us the potential that we have in Christ, just like we see in each other the potential that we have in Christ. But just as we also see any sin that may be in our lives and in the lives of the Christians around us, so does God. And, of course, it is absolutely essential for God to see any sin that we may have in our lives; for if He didn’t, how could He be the Father that loves us and discipline us if we sin?

Heb. 12:1. Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
2. fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3. For consider Him who has endured such hostility by sinners against Himself, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.
A Father's Discipline
4. You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin;
5. and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, "MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD, NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM;
6. FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES."
7. It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
8. But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.
9. Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live?
10. For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness. (NASB, 1995)

And notice that God disciplines us to bring us to repentance of any sin that may be in our lives so that “we may share His holiness.” Christians who do not repent of any sin that may be in their lives do NOT share His holiness.

Old Earther
Jan 13th 2009, 07:52 PM
Of course God doesn't see us as perfect. He sees all things as they truly are, and we are all truly sinful.

Jemand
Jan 13th 2009, 08:10 PM
Of course God doesn't see us as perfect. He sees all things as they truly are, and we are all truly sinful.

Yes, God sees all things as they truly are, but if a “Christian” is “truly sinful,” there is something radically wrong with his Christianity.

Old Earther
Jan 13th 2009, 08:41 PM
Jemand,

We are all sinners, no?

Jemand
Jan 13th 2009, 08:48 PM
Jemand,

We are all sinners, no?

Most hopefully not!

Old Earther
Jan 13th 2009, 08:52 PM
Jemand,

So you don't sin anymore?

timmyb
Jan 14th 2009, 01:03 AM
Of course God doesn't see us as perfect. He sees all things as they truly are, and we are all truly sinful.

how can God see as sinful if he sees them through the eyes of the cross? If you have agreed with the blood of Jesus that it has made you righteous you are in God's eyes as righteous as his son basically sinless by virtue of a free gift... now that doesn't mean you won't sin... but I believe that repentance and agreement with God's judgment of you not only removes your sin from you but also removes your right to condemn yourself because condemnation is not agreeing with God's son's blood making you righteous and in effect the reality of Romans 8:1 there is NO condemnation for those in Christ Jesus...

God declares what he really sees... the blood of his son... and the man it will make you as a result...

Jemand
Jan 14th 2009, 03:17 AM
how can God see as sinful if he sees them through the eyes of the cross? If you have agreed with the blood of Jesus that it has made you righteous you are in God's eyes as righteous as his son basically sinless by virtue of a free gift... now that doesn't mean you won't sin... but I believe that repentance and agreement with God's judgment of you not only removes your sin from you but also removes your right to condemn yourself because condemnation is not agreeing with God's son's blood making you righteous and in effect the reality of Romans 8:1 there is NO condemnation for those in Christ Jesus...

God declares what he really sees... the blood of his son... and the man it will make you as a result...

Rom 8:1. Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
3. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4. so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. (NASB, 1995)

There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus because the of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set us free from the law of sin and of death. However, if we trample under foot the Son of God, and regard as unclean the blood of the covenant by which we were sanctified, and insult the Spirit of grace and “go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.”

Heb. 10:26. For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27. but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
28. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30. For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
31. It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (NASB, 1995)

Upon a man’s hearing the Gospel and responding to it in belief in Christ and obedience to Him, the man is justified in the sight of God and he has a clean slate. He then has two choices:

1. To yield to the Holy Spirit and live a life of holiness and faithfulness to God thereby keeping his slate clean

2. To yield to temptations to sin and live a life of debauchery and unfaithfulness, there soiling his slate

God sees that man who chooses choice #1 as righteous. God sees that man who chooses choice #2 as sinful. God is not blind, and He is not foolish or delusional—He sees every man just as he is, and He deals with every man accordingly.

Sirus
Jan 14th 2009, 03:48 AM
of course He see us as perfect. If not, what did Paul mean here?

Phi 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect (teleios), be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Mind you this is right after he said

Phi 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect (teleioō): but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Now wait a minute. How can you not have attained what you have already attained? These are two words, not one. The first perfect in v12 is absolute perfection -resurrection. He even said it in the previous verse

Phi 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

The second perfect is the man Christ Jesus' perfection attained as a mortal man via the cross that has been given to us (his grace), which is the rule we are to walk by -the cross.

Phi 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

That is, we are crucified with Christ and are risen to new life and it is in trusting that this is what God says about us (faith), we walk. There is a walk.....

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

So when people say, as they often do, no one is perfect (teleioō), yeah....no kidding.....we are not resurrected yet. That doesn't excuse you from continuing in sin!

Jemand
Jan 14th 2009, 04:31 AM
of course He see us as perfect. If not, what did Paul mean here?

Phi 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect (teleios), be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Mind you this is right after he said

Phi 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect (teleioō): but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Now wait a minute. How can you not have attained what you have already attained? These are two words, not one. The first perfect in v12 is absolute perfection -resurrection. He even said it in the previous verse

Phi 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

The second perfect is the man Christ Jesus' perfection attained as a mortal man via the cross that has been given to us (his grace), which is the rule we are to walk by -the cross.

Phi 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

That is, we are crucified with Christ and are risen to new life and it is in trusting that this is what God says about us (faith), we walk. There is a walk.....

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

So when people say, as they often do, no one is perfect (teleios), yeah....no kidding.....we are not resurrected yet.


In Phil. 3:12 Paul used a verb in the indicative mood, the perfect tense, and the passive voice (τετελειωμαι). In Phil. 3:15 Paul used the cognate adjective of the same verb in the nominative case (τελειοι). It is also important to note here that Paul’s choice of words when writing to the Philippians was very different from his choice of words when writing to the Corinthians. The Christians in Philippi were mature Christians and both God and Paul saw them that way. The Christians in Corinth were very immature Christians and both God and Paul saw them that way.

Romans 6:4 is an admonition to walk in newness of life; it does not say that all Christians do so or that God sees all Christians as doing so.

Sirus
Jan 14th 2009, 04:40 AM
The Christians in Corinth were very immature Christians and both God and Paul saw them that way.I guess that's why he said 'such were some of you but you are washed, sanctified, and justified'?

Jemand
Jan 14th 2009, 04:51 AM
I guess that's why he said 'such were some of you but you are washed, sanctified, and justified'?

1 Cor. 3:1. And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.
2. I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able,
3. for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men? (NASB, 1995)

Infants in Christ are NOT mature Christians!

Sirus
Jan 14th 2009, 04:57 AM
exactly my point! :B

reformedct
Jan 14th 2009, 05:06 AM
1 Cor. 3:1. And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.
2. I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able,
3. for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men? (NASB, 1995)

Infants in Christ are NOT mature Christians!

So it is possible to sleep with our step-parents, sue each other, get drunk off of communion wine and still be "infant Christians", but if we willfully go on sinning we wont be saved? which is it?

isnt committing sexual sin willfully sinning?

Jemand
Jan 14th 2009, 05:59 AM
So it is possible to sleep with our step-parents, sue each other, get drunk off of communion wine and still be "infant Christians", but if we willfully go on sinning we wont be saved? which is it?

isnt committing sexual sin willfully sinning?

Don’t argue with me; I didn’t write the Bible! :D

My heart's Desire
Jan 14th 2009, 07:20 AM
Ah, I wanted in this discussion so badly but I've heard nothing but awesome sermons on God's Grace lately that I wouldn't know where to start! We are in Christ COMPLETE, Whole and .....why is it that people just assume that being complete, depending on grace means we go sin more and more instead of less and less. Ah, but the love of Christ constrains me!

timmyb
Jan 14th 2009, 02:34 PM
Rom 8:1. Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
3. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4. so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. (NASB, 1995)

There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus because the of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set us free from the law of sin and of death. However, if we trample under foot the Son of God, and regard as unclean the blood of the covenant by which we were sanctified, and insult the Spirit of grace and “go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.”

Heb. 10:26. For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27. but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
28. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30. For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
31. It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (NASB, 1995)

Upon a man’s hearing the Gospel and responding to it in belief in Christ and obedience to Him, the man is justified in the sight of God and he has a clean slate. He then has two choices:

1. To yield to the Holy Spirit and live a life of holiness and faithfulness to God thereby keeping his slate clean

2. To yield to temptations to sin and live a life of debauchery and unfaithfulness, there soiling his slate

God sees that man who chooses choice #1 as righteous. God sees that man who chooses choice #2 as sinful. God is not blind, and He is not foolish or delusional—He sees every man just as he is, and He deals with every man accordingly.

here's how i know a man has fully lost his salvation: if he has fully turned from God and hates his ways... because if a man is afraid that he has 'lost' his salvation without any hope for repentance his heart is still sincere, it's still turned to God not from him it's just that he is immature in his faith. because God is way more patient with immature christians who may have a wrong view of him than one who's conscience has been seared like 1 Timothy 4:1-3...

God knows our weaknesses... that's why he made it as easy as he did... doing everything to bring us into his presence without excuse and without having to work for it...

thethinker
Jan 14th 2009, 03:24 PM
well what i meant was that in Christ we become the righteousness of God, however at the same time He disciplines us and scourges us. So if we are perfect in His sight how can he scourge/discipline us, but i understand better now. We are righteous because of our faith and then God works in us to bring about His practical righteousness in our daily lives (sanctification)


Reformedct,
God does not scourge us or discipline us now. Those statements about God's discipline were made while Christ was still atoning for sin. There were two parts to the atoning work of Christ. The first was of course His sacrificial death and shedding of blood on the cross. The second part of His atoning work was the sprinkling of His blood on the altar of the heavenly sanctuary (Heb. 8-10).

The second part of the sprinkling of His blood has been accomplished and resulted in God's not having to deal with sin again,


"So Christ, having been offfered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who eagerly wait for Him" (Heb. 9:27, ESV).

The second appearance of Christ here is NOT a reference to His second coming. It refers to His second appearance before God in the heavenly sanctuary to declare that sin has been finished. This He did in accordance with the law of Moses. It was required of the high priest to enter the holy of holies with the blood of the sacrifice and to sprinkle it on the altar. Sometime afterwards the high priest would appear before God a second time. This indicated that sin was finished.

You might be saying that Jesus said "it is finished" while on the cross. But that statement referred to HIMSELF and meant that He now could enter the Holy of Holies unrestricted when all high priests before Him were restricted. All high priests before Him could enter only twice per year.

Jesus finished the atoning work in the heavenly sanctuary. Therefore, God no longer has dealings with the sin of His people. Now the law of God is written upon the hearts and minds of His people. So we deal with sin ourselves which is what God wanted all along.

God cannot see sin regarding His people in any sense of the term. No-not at all! I repeat: God cannot see sin concerning you. Period!

Amen,
thinker

Jemand
Jan 15th 2009, 05:23 AM
So it is possible to sleep with our step-parents, sue each other, get drunk off of communion wine and still be "infant Christians", but if we willfully go on sinning we wont be saved? which is it?

isnt committing sexual sin willfully sinning?

Paul’s Corinthian epistles were written at an early point in the Apostolic Church (54 or 55 A.D.) when New Testament theology was in its infancy and the relationship of the Christian to the Law was not well understood by many Christians. The Corinthian Christians were especially ignorant of this relationship and they did not realize that their conduct was sinful—indeed, they believed that they were especially spiritual. Therefore, although they were sinning, they were not “willfully” sinning.

Jemand
Jan 15th 2009, 05:30 AM
Reformedct,
God does not scourge us or discipline us now. Those statements about God's discipline were made while Christ was still atoning for sin. There were two parts to the atoning work of Christ. The first was of course His sacrificial death and shedding of blood on the cross. The second part of His atoning work was the sprinkling of His blood on the altar of the heavenly sanctuary (Heb. 8-10).

The second part of the sprinkling of His blood has been accomplished and resulted in God's not having to deal with sin again,



The second appearance of Christ here is NOT a reference to His second coming. It refers to His second appearance before God in the heavenly sanctuary to declare that sin has been finished. This He did in accordance with the law of Moses. It was required of the high priest to enter the holy of holies with the blood of the sacrifice and to sprinkle it on the altar. Sometime afterwards the high priest would appear before God a second time. This indicated that sin was finished.

You might be saying that Jesus said "it is finished" while on the cross. But that statement referred to HIMSELF and meant that He now could enter the Holy of Holies unrestricted when all high priests before Him were restricted. All high priests before Him could enter only twice per year.

Jesus finished the atoning work in the heavenly sanctuary. Therefore, God no longer has dealings with the sin of His people. Now the law of God is written upon the hearts and minds of His people. So we deal with sin ourselves which is what God wanted all along.

God cannot see sin regarding His people in any sense of the term. No-not at all! I repeat: God cannot see sin concerning you. Period!

Amen,
thinker

It would be much easier for me to see some credibility in this highly imaginative view if there were even so much as one verse in the New Testament in support of it.

Yukerboy
Jan 15th 2009, 04:28 PM
Paul’s Corinthian epistles were written at an early point in the Apostolic Church (54 or 55 A.D.) when New Testament theology was in its infancy and the relationship of the Christian to the Law was not well understood by many Christians. The Corinthian Christians were especially ignorant of this relationship and they did not realize that their conduct was sinful—indeed, they believed that they were especially spiritual. Therefore, although they were sinning, they were not “willfully” sinning.

Define willfully sinning.

theBelovedDisciple
Jan 15th 2009, 04:59 PM
I can attest and do testify today that Jesus still 'chastises' His children.. yes He does.. I have been thru it... it was not fun but I"m glad it happened cause if it didnt then I would be 'illegimate'.. a bastard.. It was done because He 'loved' me and it's done because He loves His children too much.. I endured the chastisement.. but in the end it has 'yielded the peacable fruit of Righteousness' and to be a partaker of His Holiness...... Did I understand what I was going thru at the time? no.. I had no idea .. but today I know and understand of His Great Love for His own..

My chastisement had to do with the 'focus' of my life.. He delivered and saved me Feb 3 1994.. but after that I began to make the focus about me.. and not Him..... I had switched focus to 'me' instead of what He has accomplished on that bloody tree.. I had left aside the 'preaching of the Cross'... for that is where the Power of the Gospel resides... The testimony He has given me is about Him and His delivering and converting power..... and this all thru what He has 'done', as God in the flesh........ not what I"ve done or what I can do... but it's about Him..

He disciplined me yes.. but then He set right back on the right path again.. Gently and with much comfort.. instructing and teaching me along the way..... Today I 'know' that the Power of the Gospel.. resides in the Preaching of the Cross.. I also 'know' today that there are many 'enemies' of the Cross of Christ.. and for that purpose I sometimes break down in tears.. I understand fully today that it is 'foolishness' to many and some its a stumblingstone... but to us who are Truly Saved.. it is the Power of God.. amen and amen..

For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected [us], and we gave [them] reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

For they verily for a few days chastened [us] after their own pleasure; but he for [our] profit, that [we] might be partakers of his holiness.

Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

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thethinker
Jan 15th 2009, 05:00 PM
Romans 6:4 is an admonition to walk in newness of life; it does not say that all Christians do so or that God sees all Christians as doing so.

Paul said this before God had written the law in their minds and upon their hearts. After God put His laws in them they judged sin themselves. This is the direction Paul was trying to take them. He said to the Corinthians,


"For if we would judge ourselves we would not be judged. But when we are judged we are chastened of the Lord that we should not be condemned with the world".

So God wanted all along for His people to judge their sins themselves. But they couldn't because God's law was not yet written in their minds and hearts . But the letter to the Hebrews indicates that the time was soon coming when God would put His law into them. And how can God see people as imperfect who have His law written in their minds and hearts?


For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days says the Lord: I will put my laws in their mind and write them upon their hearts....and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember NO MORE

It clearly says that God would put His laws into their minds and hearts "AFTER those days". The expression "after those days" in its context reveals that it had not yet happened. God's law was not yet in them. Otherwise, why did the author warn them against backsliding to damnation again? They were prompted to backslide just as their fathers in the ages before them. So how could they have had God's law in them when the new covenant promise was that God would HEAL their backslidings?

Furthermore, if the law of God had been in them Paul would not have had to exhort them to "let" the word of Christ dwell in them. For once God's law is written in a man it dwells in him necessarily! He doesn't just choose to "let" it. Would Paul have exhorted a living well to bring forth water? Obviously not. That he had to exhort them to "let" the word of Christ dwell in them shows that God's law was not yet in them.

And once the law of God is firmly placed into the mind and heart of a man it says that God will remember that man's sin NO MORE. Therefore, God does not see sin in us in any sense of the term. No not at all.

You and I probably have sharply different views of God's new covenant dealings with man.

Peace,
thinker

reformedct
Jan 15th 2009, 05:27 PM
Ah, I wanted in this discussion so badly but I've heard nothing but awesome sermons on God's Grace lately that I wouldn't know where to start! We are in Christ COMPLETE, Whole and .....why is it that people just assume that being complete, depending on grace means we go sin more and more instead of less and less. Ah, but the love of Christ constrains me!


this is beautiful. When i first got saved i was focused on overcoming sin with my own strength and failing miserably. Then i heard a sermon from Mars Hill about grace and abiding in the vine. How every temptation is an oppurtunity to remain planted in Christ, and by doing so He promises we will bear much fruit! The gospel is not just how we get saved. It is also how we stay saved. Grace also includes a new heart and power over sin. If you truly love CHrist the thought of sinning against Him is horrifying and heartbreaking

thethinker
Jan 18th 2009, 01:34 PM
Hey guys,
I was thinking about my replies on this thread and wished I had been more simple. I was thinking about things this morning and it occurred to me that God does see our sin. But it is as Father He sees it and not as Judge.

As Judge God cannot see our sin because He sees Christ our Surety instead. I think this is more simple and direct.

bless all,
thinker

Sirus
Jan 18th 2009, 05:33 PM
Yes. Christ is Judge of the quick and the dead. When it says 'I will remember your sins no more' it doesn't mean God willingly gives himself amnesia.

My heart's Desire
Jan 18th 2009, 08:50 PM
Hey guys,
I was thinking about my replies on this thread and wished I had been more simple. I was thinking about things this morning and it occurred to me the God does see our sin. But it is as Father He sees it and not as Judge.

As Judge God cannot see our sin because He sees Christ our Surety instead. I think this is more simple and direct.

bless all,
thinker
Just as God saw the blood sacrifice over the ark with the broken Laws, He sees us covered by the Blood of Christ and no longer deals with us as strangers and foreigners but as sons and daughters.