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bhoup
Jan 5th 2009, 07:25 AM
Question, I was always under the impression that the first sin came from Adam and Eve in Genesis 3 in what we call "The Fall" but here's my question: If that was the very first sin, how could there even be a crafty serpent to deceive Eve? Isn't the serpent a fallen angel, therefore he would have been sinning even before Adam and Eve?

Sirus
Jan 5th 2009, 07:27 AM
Yes.....he sinned from the beginning in fact
....and he was in the world, yet sin was not in the world
.....why/how is that?

dworthington
Jan 5th 2009, 09:23 AM
It seems simple to me, Adam's sin was the first sin of mankind.

reformedct
Jan 5th 2009, 05:16 PM
Yes, original sin refers to the sin of Adam.

There was sin before that in heaven involving Lucifer and his followers. BUt we as humans were not tainted by Lucifers sin. Once we sinned ourselves then we became tainted and stained with the effects of sin

Clydson
Jan 5th 2009, 06:21 PM
Question, I was always under the impression that the first sin came from Adam and Eve in Genesis 3 in what we call "The Fall" but here's my question: If that was the very first sin, how could there even be a crafty serpent to deceive Eve? Isn't the serpent a fallen angel, therefore he would have been sinning even before Adam and Eve?
Greetings Bhoup.

Scripture does not inform us as to who or what committed the first sin, unless, of course, it was Eve. She would have been the first human to commit sin. Whether or not the Serpent committed sin prior to his subtlety with Eve in the Garden of Eden is not told us by scripture. Neither does scripture inform us that the serpent was a fallen angel.

Jake

karenoka27
Jan 5th 2009, 06:26 PM
The Bible does tell us of the sin of Lucifer/Satan/devil:
Isaiah 14:12-"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit."




















'

threebigrocks
Jan 5th 2009, 08:02 PM
Yes.....he sinned from the beginning in fact
....and he was in the world, yet sin was not in the world
.....why/how is that?

Well, it was just God and satan, and the war wasn't on earth but in heaven.

What "activates" sin?

Sin wasn't laid bare in it's fullness until there was disobedience against God. Now we see in Genesis 3 sin became active in the world. Sin is what goes against God. The simple presence of evil doesn't make sin active. It took a man with free will to choose for or against God.

Brother Mark
Jan 5th 2009, 08:07 PM
God had given dominion to Adam over all the earth. It's all about authority. When the head guy sinned, it impacted everything. If Satan had been in authority over the earth at the time he sinned, it may have had a similar impact. But he wasn't in authority over the world so sin only entered the world through it's authority, Adam.

Because of this law, righteousness can enter through Jesus too. I am very thankful for authority.

threebigrocks
Jan 5th 2009, 09:00 PM
Romans 5
12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

Sin entered through 1 man, and as Brother Mark said - it affected the entire creation and all mankind.

Clydson
Jan 5th 2009, 09:29 PM
Scripture does not inform us as to who or what committed the first sin, unless, of course, it was Eve. She would have been the first human to commit sin. Whether or not the Serpent committed sin prior to his subtlety with Eve in the Garden of Eden is not told us by scripture. Neither does scripture inform us that the serpent was a fallen angel.

Jake


The Bible does tell us of the sin of Lucifer/Satan/devil:
Isaiah 14:12-"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit."

It still doesn't tell us if the serpent sinned prior to Eden.

Also, the passage you have quoted is not speaking of Satan. Lucifer, in this context, is someone or something else.

Jake

Yukerboy
Jan 5th 2009, 09:50 PM
Well, it was just God and satan, and the war wasn't on earth but in heaven.

What "activates" sin?

Sin wasn't laid bare in it's fullness until there was disobedience against God. Now we see in Genesis 3 sin became active in the world. Sin is what goes against God. The simple presence of evil doesn't make sin active. It took a man with free will to choose for or against God.

Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.

This works in every way, even with Adam and Eve.

Once they were told "Do not eat of that tree," sin sprang to life and they died.

The law of God was given so that the transgressions may increase.

oneinthespirit
Jan 5th 2009, 09:50 PM
It still doesn't tell us if the serpent sinned prior to Eden.

Also, the passage you have quoted is not speaking of Satan. Lucifer, in this context, is someone or something else.

Jake

Hey Jake,

Who was it taking about then?

Was there another Lucifer on earth?

Or could be that whoever God was talking to, he was comparing him to lucifer, the devil and serpent?

threebigrocks
Jan 5th 2009, 10:40 PM
Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.

This works in every way, even with Adam and Eve.

Once they were told "Do not eat of that tree," sin sprang to life and they died.

The law of God was given so that the transgressions may increase.

Agreed, except to say that the sin wasn't in force until they actually ate the fruit. ;)

ross3421
Jan 5th 2009, 11:56 PM
Well, it was just God and satan, and the war wasn't on earth but in heaven.

What "activates" sin?

Sin wasn't laid bare in it's fullness until there was disobedience against God. Now we see in Genesis 3 sin became active in the world. Sin is what goes against God. The simple presence of evil doesn't make sin active. It took a man with free will to choose for or against God.

Yes. One can disobey without sining.......

Sin is a state which consequence is death to our fleshly body. This does not preclude man from having free will to choose right or wrong as in the case of Adam and Eve. The tree of G&E did not show them what was wrong as evidence God still had to give them a commandment to obey which they broke by eating the fruit.

Brother Mark
Jan 6th 2009, 12:14 AM
Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.

This works in every way, even with Adam and Eve.

Once they were told "Do not eat of that tree," sin sprang to life and they died.

The law of God was given so that the transgressions may increase.

Your mostly right. However, the second Adam was also under the law and did not sin. Without a sin nature, the law has nothing in someone. Adam wasn't made with a sin nature. ;)

Clydson
Jan 6th 2009, 02:13 AM
Hey Jake,

Who was it taking about then?

Was there another Lucifer on earth?

Or could be that whoever God was talking to, he was comparing him to lucifer, the devil and serpent?
Nebuchadnezzar.

Also, verse 12 is the only place in the bible where the Hebrew word is found in its noun form. It is found as a verb in Ezek 21:12 and Zech 7:2, and is rendered "howl" by the KJV.

And no, God was not comparing Nebuchadnezzar to the serpent in Eden.

Jake

Sirus
Jan 6th 2009, 02:25 AM
Yes, original sin refers to the sin of Adam.

There was sin before that in heaven involving Lucifer and his followers. BUt we as humans were not tainted by Lucifers sin. Once we sinned ourselves then we became tainted and stained with the effects of sinIn heaven? What scripture says that? Fall from heaven mean literally, and if so is that where Lucifer started out?

Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Is that when Satan sinned? Hardly!

You are correct Adam was not tainted by Lucifer's sin. Just the same way there was death in the world but not death for man.

Sirus
Jan 6th 2009, 02:28 AM
Well, it was just God and satan, and the war wasn't on earth but in heaven.Really? Scripture?

SIG
Jan 6th 2009, 04:26 AM
Satan (the serpent) sinned and fell before Eden. Had he not, he would not have been in the Garden.

He conceived sin in Heaven, and also sinned in the Garden, by deceiving Eve.
"He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

Adam and Eve were created higher than the angels. But one fallen angel caused them, and thus all of humankind, to also fall. For much more on the shifting of hierarchies, see the entire Book of Hebrews.

Sirus
Jan 6th 2009, 04:50 AM
Satan (the serpent) sinned and fell before Eden. Had he not, he would not have been in the Garden.

He conceived sin in Heaven, and also sinned in the Garden, by deceiving Eve.
"He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

Adam and Eve were created higher than the angels. But one fallen angel caused them, and thus all of humankind, to also fall. For much more on the shifting of hierarchies, see the entire Book of Hebrews.Wow, more of the same and then some....and again, no scripture....all preconceived assumption.

Yukerboy
Jan 6th 2009, 11:36 AM
Agreed, except to say that the sin wasn't in force until they actually ate the fruit.

I agree with that.


However, the second Adam was also under the law and did not sin. Without a sin nature, the law has nothing in someone. Adam wasn't made with a sin nature.


Kind of agree. Sin was in the world and sprang to life when the commandment came. Adam did not have a sin nature, but was doomed to sin once the commandment came.

SIG
Jan 7th 2009, 01:51 AM
Wow, more of the same and then some....and again, no scripture....all preconceived assumption.

This (lazy) link contains pertinent verses:
http://www.gotquestions.org/Satan-fall.html

and

I Corinthians 6:2-3: "Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? And if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels?"

We know from Scripture that man in his fallen state is lower than angels. We know that Christ, and hence His elect are higher. Whether or not Adam and Eve in their pristine state were higher is, granted, arguable.

(Teacher says I should not do your homework for you.)

Sirus
Jan 7th 2009, 02:03 AM
I need scripture, not an link that repeats only part of what you said already. It only addressed one question anyway and cherry picked out of the passage to get the answer. What about all the others I put in bold?

SIG
Jan 7th 2009, 02:07 AM
I need scripture, not an link that repeats only part of what you said already. It only addressed one question anyway and cherry picked out of the passage to get the answer. What about all the others I put in bold?

Are you Sirius?

Sirus
Jan 7th 2009, 02:54 AM
No, I am Aldebaran :D

Yes, I am serious.
Let me make this easy. What scripture even implies.

1. Adam and Eve were created higher than the angels.

2. Satan (the serpent) sinned and fell before Eden.

3. he would not have been in the Eden when he sinned, He conceived sin in Heaven.

SIG
Jan 8th 2009, 10:37 PM
Some of these answers are by deduction; God does not always spell things out word-for-word.

For instance--He created all things good--so how did a liar (the serpent, a carrier of sin, as it were) appear in the Garden?

(PS: What scenario do you suggest, using Scripture word-for-word? Or--is there no way to conclude these matters Scripturally?)

Sirus
Jan 9th 2009, 02:12 AM
by deduction? You mean assumption? Or presupposition?

So because "He created all things good" you deduct;

1. Adam and Eve were created higher than the angels.

2. Satan (the serpent) sinned and fell before Eden.

3. he would not have been in the Eden when he sinned, He conceived sin in Heaven.

Ok, now, where are you getting your definition of good? For you, good in Genesis 1= perfect. Why? Holistically, God had a plan of redemption through faith alone. How he created all things was good for that purpose.

1. Adam and Eve were created a little lower than the angels.

2. Satan (the serpent) sinned and fell in Eden.

3. He conceived sin in the kingdom of heaven (earth) (the kingdoms were his to give to whomever he wills -Jesus' temptation) and ascended above the clouds to 'Heaven' and was cast back down to the ground and to the sides of the pit.

You don't need the scripture references do ya?

SIG
Jan 10th 2009, 04:07 AM
SIG quote: "What scenario do you suggest, using Scripture word-for-word?"

Sirus
Jan 10th 2009, 06:19 PM
get your horse back in front of your cart!

Sirus quote: "Ok, now, where are you getting your definition of good? For you, good in Genesis 1= perfect. Why? Holistically, God had a plan of redemption through faith alone. How he created all things was good for that purpose."

SIG
Jan 11th 2009, 04:30 AM
Let me re-think/re-state:

You seem to be saying that what many believe about these questions cannot be validated clearly from Scripture.

What I'm asking is what YOU believe, and if that CAN be validated directly from Scripture.

Or do you believe that Scripture does not answer these questions?

(And please note: it is not vital to me either way. While these questions are no doubt interesting, they in no way impact for me God's purpose for me: seeking the lost and presenting the Gospel.)

Sirus
Jan 11th 2009, 04:46 AM
Sure they can be validated with scripture. I didn't think it necessary to post scriptures for....
-man made a little lower than the angels
-lucifer in Eden the garden
-ascending above the clouds
-cast down to the ground

ed0526
Jan 11th 2009, 05:16 AM
Yes, original sin refers to the sin of Adam.

There was sin before that in heaven involving Lucifer and his followers. BUt we as humans were not tainted by Lucifers sin. Once we sinned ourselves then we became tainted and stained with the effects of sin


I agree... man's first sin was with Adam