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reformedct
Jan 5th 2009, 05:29 PM
I have been hearing many say that upon recieving Christ we are only forgiven for past sin? Did Jesus not pay the full price for every sin that we will commit?


Colossians 2

13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities [2] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Colossians+2#f2) and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him. [3] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Colossians+2#f3)



Jesus paid our full debt on the cross. Our "tab" with all of our sin debt was nailed to the cross. So does Jesus hand out forgiveness periodically in our relationship to Him? That seems to sound more like Catholicsm. If the price has already been paid for our debt, how are we only forgiven for past sin?

How much of our sin was future sin as Christ shed His blood on that glorious day? Werent we not even born? Did He not pay our debt before we were even concieved? So how come all of the sudden only "past sins" are forgiven?

Was not the lamb slain before the foundation of the world?

Emanate
Jan 5th 2009, 05:51 PM
I have been hearing many say that upon recieving Christ we are only forgiven for past sin? Did Jesus not pay the full price for every sin that we will commit?


Colossians 2

13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities [2] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Colossians+2#f2) and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him. [3] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Colossians+2#f3)



Jesus paid our full debt on the cross. Our "tab" with all of our sin debt was nailed to the cross. So does Jesus hand out forgiveness periodically in our relationship to Him? That seems to sound more like Catholicsm. If the price has already been paid for our debt, how are we only forgiven for past sin?

How much of our sin was future sin as Christ shed His blood on that glorious day? Werent we not even born? Did He not pay our debt before we were even concieved? So how come all of the sudden only "past sins" are forgiven?

Was not the lamb slain before the foundation of the world?

I was taught in Sunday School that not only were you not forgiven each time you sinned, but there is only a limited amount of times that you could ask for forgiveness and still be forgiven.

Clydson
Jan 5th 2009, 05:59 PM
I have been hearing many say that upon recieving Christ we are only forgiven for past sin? Did Jesus not pay the full price for every sin that we will commit?


Greetings reformedct.

It might help you to study the words of Peter;

2 Peter 1:7
9 But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.
NIV

What is meant by "past sins"? Why does it not read "all sins" or "future sins" or even "past and future sins"?

Jake

markdrums
Jan 5th 2009, 06:01 PM
I have to go with Jesus' last words.....

His whole mission was to conquer sin & death, so that we might have salvation.

On the cross, he said, "It is finished".

:)

He didn't say, "it's started, or - it's in progress, or - we're half-way there"... etc.... the word was "finished".

ALL sins covered by his blood, for those who ask.

Slug1
Jan 5th 2009, 06:08 PM
I was taught in Sunday School that not only were you not forgiven each time you sinned, but there is only a limited amount of times that you could ask for forgiveness and still be forgiven.Biblical support? Anyone can teach anything and it's believed if the truth isn't sought after in the Bible.

I guess the 7x70 is limited and grace runs out after that :hmm:

Or is it a matter of repentance and being repentant and remaining repentant to make a request for forgiveness worthy? That it has meaning... I know when I was bound in my sin of sexual immorality I asked God for forgiveness daily, far more then 7x70. God began to discipline me and repentant is where I finally am in my walk and am blameless and I was forgiven.

Back to the Sunday School - was this a tactic by a Sunday School teacher to keep little kids good and not to do bad :lol:

MacGyver
Jan 5th 2009, 06:13 PM
Forgivness of our sins happens at conversion, my Faith teaches that is at Baptism. All our past sins are completely washed away. But after Baptism we still sin, at least I do unfortunately, so St. John gave us instruction of what to do for sins after conversion, 1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

But even the forgiveness of our sins through confession is still purchased through the work that Christ did not the Cross. All forgiveness of sins is possible only through the shed Blood of Jesus Christ, whether it's Baptism or Confession.

VerticalReality
Jan 5th 2009, 06:20 PM
I believe Jesus Christ has cleansed us from all sin if we believe. However, if we deny Him and sin willfully there no longer remains a sacrifice for our sins and we will face chastening from the Lord in order to get us back on track where we are supposed to be.

Slug1
Jan 5th 2009, 06:26 PM
I believe Jesus Christ has cleansed us from all sin if we believe. However, if we deny Him and sin willfully there no longer remains a sacrifice for our sins and we will face chastening from the Lord in order to get us back on track where we are supposed to be.AMEN, I've experienced it... Praise God!

VerticalReality
Jan 5th 2009, 06:31 PM
AMEN, I've experienced it... Praise God!

Absolutely praise the Lord! As unpleasant as His chastening may be . . . it is just what we need to wake our stubborn selves up sometimes. Thankfully He loves us enough to knock some sense into us.

Slug1
Jan 5th 2009, 06:34 PM
Absolutely praise the Lord! As unpleasant as His chastening may be . . . it is just what we need to wake our stubborn selves up sometimes. Thankfully He loves us enough to knock some sense into us.Yeah, God has even told me that someday I will teach and testify to others about this event in my life.

Emanate
Jan 5th 2009, 07:09 PM
Biblical support? Anyone can teach anything and it's believed if the truth isn't sought after in the Bible.

I guess the 7x70 is limited and grace runs out after that :hmm:

Or is it a matter of repentance and being repentant and remaining repentant to make a request for forgiveness worthy? That it has meaning... I know when I was bound in my sin of sexual immorality I asked God for forgiveness daily, far more then 7x70. God began to discipline me and repentant is where I finally am in my walk and am blameless and I was forgiven.

Back to the Sunday School - was this a tactic by a Sunday School teacher to keep little kids good and not to do bad :lol:

It was probably the latter. In all fairness, the pastor may have passed out if he knew what we were being taught.

Yukerboy
Jan 5th 2009, 09:43 PM
cleanse us from all unrighteousness

I guess all only means past....

Either Christ continues to sin or those who are born again do not.

There's no two ways about it. One or the other, your choice.

MacGyver
Jan 5th 2009, 10:05 PM
I guess all only means past....

Either Christ continues to sin or those who are born again do not.

There's no two ways about it. One or the other, your choice.That makes no sense.

Yukerboy
Jan 5th 2009, 10:08 PM
That makes no sense.
Are not those who are born again the Body of Christ?

markdrums
Jan 5th 2009, 10:12 PM
That makes no sense.

I'm with ya'.
I'm confused as to what that means......

Christ was the only person who NEVER sinned. How can he possibly "continue" sinning, when he never sinned in the first place??
:confused

Yukerboy
Jan 5th 2009, 10:14 PM
I'm with ya'.
I'm confused as to what that means......

Christ was the only person who NEVER sinned. How can he possibly "continue" sinning, when he never sinned in the first place??
:confused


Agreed, continue was a bad choice of words.

Either Christ sins today or the born again do not sin.

MacGyver
Jan 5th 2009, 10:15 PM
Are not those who are born again the Body of Christ?Yes, but what does that have to do with your last post and 1 John 1:9. I think you are misunderstanding the context of "all unrighteousness." All unrighteousness that you have done since the last time your sins were forgiven. Baptism washes away your sins, and confession takes care of your sins after Baptism. St. John was writing to those who were already Christians so he instructs them by saying "if we confess our sins".

Emanate
Jan 5th 2009, 10:19 PM
Yes, but what does that have to do with your last post and 1 John 1:9. I think you are misunderstanding the context of "all unrighteousness." All unrighteousness that you have done since the last time your sins were forgiven. Baptism washes away your sins, and confession takes care of your sins after Baptism. St. John was writing to those who were already Christians so he instructs them by saying "if we confess our sins".


Baptism and Confession saves us?

markdrums
Jan 5th 2009, 10:22 PM
Agreed, continue was a bad choice of words.

Either Christ sins today or the born again do not sin.

OR....
Christ STILL doesn't sin... but we, even though being born again still continue to sin.

Although when we're face to face with God, the blood will have covered us through Faith in Christ, & we'll be presented as perfect, righteous & Holy.

MacGyver
Jan 5th 2009, 10:24 PM
Baptism and Confession saves us?Baptism washes away our sins and confession brings forgiveness also, so yes they are instruments established by Christ to take care of our sins, though they get their power by the work on the Cross that Christ did.

markdrums
Jan 5th 2009, 10:28 PM
Baptism washes away our sins and confession brings forgiveness also, so yes they are instruments established by Christ to take care of our sins, though they get their power by the work on the Cross that Christ did.

I think I know what you're trying to say...
Baptism is a symbolic, obedient act, that indicates we, as believers in Christ, are burying our "OLD" selves, & being raised again "new" through our faith in Jesus & his sacrifice.

The confession of our sins, along with repentance, indicates we understand that we're sinners, & we accept the covering of our sins by the blood of Christ.

;)

Yukerboy
Jan 5th 2009, 10:29 PM
Yes, but what does that have to do with your last post and 1 John 1:9. I think you are misunderstanding the context of "all unrighteousness." All unrighteousness that you have done since the last time your sins were forgiven. Baptism washes away your sins, and confession takes care of your sins after Baptism. St. John was writing to those who were already Christians so he instructs them by saying "if we confess our sins".

Could the body of Christ sin?

Can unforgiven sin enter heaven?

Before you answer these, let me point out some truths of those who are born again.

unable to bear bad fruit (Matthew 7:18)
Unable to be deceived (Matthew 24:24)
unable to be snatched out of Christ’s hand (John 10:28)
been made righteous (Romans 5:19)
Freed from sin (Romans 6:7, 6:18, 6:22)
their mind controlled by the Spirit (Romans 8:6)
Are justified from everything (Acts 13:39)
Are permitted to do everything. (1 Corinthians 6:12, 10:23)

MacGyver
Jan 5th 2009, 10:35 PM
I think I know what you're trying to say...
Baptism is a symbolic, obedient act, that indicates we, as believers in Christ, are burying our "OLD" selves, & being raised again "new" through our faith in Jesus & his sacrifice.

The confession of our sins, along with repentance, indicates we understand that we're sinners, & we accept the covering of our sins by the blood of Christ.

;)Not exactly, my doctrinal beliefs are different concerning Baptism and confession, but we can come to the same conclusion with that, that our future sins are not taken care of by a one-time act of faith, which is what the OP is about.

MacGyver
Jan 5th 2009, 10:41 PM
Could the body of Christ sin?

Can unforgiven sin enter heaven?

Before you answer these, let me point out some truths of those who are born again.

unable to bear bad fruit (Matthew 7:18)
Unable to be deceived (Matthew 24:24)
unable to be snatched out of Christ’s hand (John 10:28)
been made righteous (Romans 5:19)
Freed from sin (Romans 6:7, 6:18, 6:22)
their mind controlled by the Spirit (Romans 8:6)
Are justified from everything (Acts 13:39)
Are permitted to do everything. (1 Corinthians 6:12, 10:23)“If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that.” (1John 5:16) So yes, a Christian can sin, even commiting a sin that will send them to Hell. Can sin enter Heaven? No, that is why we confess our sins after baptism in order to take care of those sins after we become Christians. I am very aware of those passages you cited above and they make much more sense when you put them into context with the rest of Scripture.

markdrums
Jan 5th 2009, 10:44 PM
Not exactly, my doctrinal beliefs are different concerning Baptism and confession, but we can come to the same conclusion with that, that our future sins are not taken care of by a one-time act of faith, which is what the OP is about.

Ahhhhh...
So, more along the lines of:
It's not a "one time deal" of merely asking for forgiveness, but rather an anogoing, continuous process through faith, and obedience.

There needs to be a change in the person, & a desire to follow Jesus.

(Closer?)
:)

TrustingFollower
Jan 5th 2009, 10:59 PM
“If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that.” (1John 5:16) So yes, a Christian can sin, even commiting a sin that will send them to Hell. Can sin enter Heaven? No, that is why we confess our sins after baptism in order to take care of those sins after we become Christians. I am very aware of those passages you cited above and they make much more sense when you put them into context with the rest of Scripture.
I agree. Great post. We are to be Christ like, but yet we fall short of the glory and hence the need for our savior. Once we are born again we are not just puppets of God's going through the motions here on earth. We continue to live and struggle and have to persevere to the end.

MacGyver
Jan 5th 2009, 11:13 PM
Ahhhhh...
So, more along the lines of:
It's not a "one time deal" of merely asking for forgiveness, but rather an anogoing, continuous process through faith, and obedience.

There needs to be a change in the person, & a desire to follow Jesus.

(Closer?)
:)Yes! Don't get me wrong, I believe that one time conversion is amazing. But I understand our covenant with God to be much like a marriage covenant, we don't get by with just the wedding and the honeymoon, we have a marriage responsibility that requires us to be a good spouse, but when we screw up (maybe leave our socks in the floor:D), we ask for fogiveness and do our best to correct those wrong things that we do that offends our spouse. God forbid we really do something bad like adultry, we beg for forgiveness and earn our spouse's trust back, not just say, "hey, we had a wedding one time, I'm free and clear."

Sirus
Jan 6th 2009, 02:46 AM
I have been hearing many say that upon recieving Christ we are only forgiven for past sin?That comes from Rom 3:25. Paul is talking to Jews about Gentiles saying Jesus has got it ALL covered :pp


Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
..........
......
Rom 3:23-29 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

Sirus
Jan 6th 2009, 02:50 AM
Greetings reformedct.

It might help you to study the words of Peter;

2 Peter 1:7
9 But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.
NIV

What is meant by "past sins"? Why does it not read "all sins" or "future sins" or even "past and future sins"?

JakeWhat does the context say? It's a warning not to neglect theses things
2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
or end up like the individual in v9.

2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Clydson
Jan 6th 2009, 02:58 AM
It might help you to study the words of Peter;

2 Peter 1:7
9 But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.
NIV

What is meant by "past sins"? Why does it not read "all sins" or "future sins" or even "past and future sins"?

Jake


What does the context say? It's a warning not to leave the faith like the individual in v9.

2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
Very good. Now we can understand why Peter did not include "future sins".

Jake

Sirus
Jan 6th 2009, 03:03 AM
I edited my previous post a bit to make more sense and be a bit more accurate....I hope!

markdrums
Jan 6th 2009, 03:09 AM
Yes! Don't get me wrong, I believe that one time conversion is amazing. But I understand our covenant with God to be much like a marriage covenant, we don't get by with just the wedding and the honeymoon, we have a marriage responsibility that requires us to be a good spouse, but when we screw up (maybe leave our socks in the floor:D), we ask for fogiveness and do our best to correct those wrong things that we do that offends our spouse. God forbid we really do something bad like adultry, we beg for forgiveness and earn our spouse's trust back, not just say, "hey, we had a wedding one time, I'm free and clear."


MAN!!!
That whole socks on the floor comment hit home like nobody's business! Has my wife been emailing you??????
:lol::rofl:

WHEW! That was a GREAT post!
I completely understand what you're saying now. No doubt abaout it!. I'll make sure to keep my socks where they belong.... and I'll even put the toilet seat down too!!!
;)

You definitley get some extra props for this post!!

markdrums
Jan 6th 2009, 03:14 AM
Very good. Now we can understand why Peter did not include "future sins".

Jake
Quick question:

If Christs' blood was insufficient for ALL sins, then what, or who forgives & covers the rest of them?

If God is outside of time & space, then he already knows ALL of our sins.... He knew our sins before the creation of the world itself.
Yet, he STILL came to die in our place, as a substitue sacrifice....

So why wouldn't ALL of our sins be covered at the cross?

yaza
Jan 6th 2009, 03:24 AM
Forgivness of our sins happens at conversion, my Faith teaches that is at Baptism. All our past sins are completely washed away. But after Baptism we still sin, at least I do unfortunately, so St. John gave us instruction of what to do for sins after conversion, 1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

But even the forgiveness of our sins through confession is still purchased through the work that Christ did not the Cross. All forgiveness of sins is possible only through the shed Blood of Jesus Christ, whether it's Baptism or Confession.
jesus did away with all sin except the sin of unbelief jesus was sacrificed for the sins of the whole world,this does not mean that the whole world will be saved, just forgiven of every sin except the sin of unbelief in jesus, because we that are saved are saved by our belief in jesus and we come to him for our life. we are not saved by the cross we are saved by His resurrection. 1 john 1:9 is not a get out of trouble free prayer, but is a plea from john to accept christ and join the fellowship of the church,and is often taken out of context, we are taken out of the loop so to speak. thank God he did it like this or none of us would be saved,remember what jesus said "with man it is impossible" so actually when you ask for forgiveness over and over you show that you dont really believe that jesus died for the sins of the world. this should help to break the cycle of "getting right with with the lord" then the next thing you know you are "out of fellowship" christ cam to free us of sin to live by the spirit. god bless

Butch5
Jan 6th 2009, 03:24 AM
Quick question:

If Christs' blood was insufficient for ALL sins, then what, or who forgives & covers the rest of them?

If God is outside of time & space, then he already knows ALL of our sins.... He knew our sins before the creation of the world itself.
Yet, he STILL came to die in our place, as a substitue sacrifice....

So why wouldn't ALL of our sins be covered at the cross?

All sins were covered at the cross, however, the application of forgivenss is not automatic. We need to seek forgiveness as an on gooing process.

reformedct
Jan 6th 2009, 03:42 AM
All sins were covered at the cross, however, the application of forgivenss is not automatic. We need to seek forgiveness as an on gooing process.

where does it say the application of forgiveness is not automatic? that would contradict many Scriptures that say we are forgiven and that God remembers our sins and lawless deeds no more. He doesnt just say only your sins up to this point. There are many Scriptures that say we are forgiven of all sin in Christ. To say application of forgiveness is not automatic to those in Christ sounds a little off. The whole meaning of being in Christ is being under the grace and righteousness of God not the law. If we are no longer under law how are we not fully forgiven? God doesnt base His relationship on what we do/ dont do but on what Christ has done. We are made righteouss by His obedience no? Sometimes God says past sins sometimes He says all sins. We must accept both or its kinda like calling God a liar. Yes our past sins are forgiven AND ALL of our sin is fogiven. Colossians 2 says God nailed our record of debt to the cross. God sees us as eternally forgiven.

Sirus
Jan 6th 2009, 03:45 AM
All sins were covered at the cross, however, the application of forgivenss is not automatic. We need to seek forgiveness as an on gooing process.Have ANY Scripture for that? Something other than 1John 1:9 which is not that at all?

reformedct
Jan 6th 2009, 03:50 AM
All sins were covered at the cross, however, the application of forgivenss is not automatic. We need to seek forgiveness as an on gooing process.


this also sounds like forgiveness by works, in this sense by confession.

Are you saying that unless we confess everytime we sin that we are unforgiven? is it possible to be in Christ and unforgiven at the same time? If there is no forgiveness you cannot be in Christ. So according to your theology everytime we sin we are outside of Christ/unsaved

Our salvation includes Jesus sacrifice and perfect reighteousness AND our works of ongoing confession? sounds a little off thats all im sayin. Anytime we add something more than by grace thru faith in Christ it starts sounding like we are trying to add something to what Jesus says is finished or paid in full?

Butch5
Jan 6th 2009, 04:05 AM
Reformed---where does it say the application of forgiveness is not automatic?

Mark 11:25-26 ( KJV ) 25And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. 26But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.
If all of yours sins were already forgiven, how could Jesus make this statement?


Reformed---that would contradict many Scriptures that say we are forgiven and that God remembers our sins and lawless deeds no more.

Not so.


Reformed---He doesnt just say only your sins up to this point.

Romans 3:25 ( KJV ) 25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;


2 Peter 1:9 ( KJV ) 9But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.



Reformed---There are many Scriptures that say we are forgiven of all sin in Christ.

We can be forgiven of all sin, it just is not automatic.


Reformed---God doesnt base His relationship on what we do/ dont do but on what Christ has done. We are made righteouss by His obedience no?

No.


Reformed---Sometimes God says past sins sometimes He says all sins. We must accept both or its kinda like calling God a liar. Yes our past sins are forgiven AND ALL of our sin is fogiven.

It is determined by the context.


Reformed---Colossians 2 says God nailed our record of debt to the cross

What debt?


Reformed---God sees us as eternally forgiven.

Not so.

Butch5
Jan 6th 2009, 04:10 AM
Have ANY Scripture for that? Something other than 1John 1:9 which is not that at all?


Mark 11:25-26 ( KJV ) 25And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. 26But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

Butch5
Jan 6th 2009, 04:12 AM
this also sounds like forgiveness by works, in this sense by confession.

Are you saying that unless we confess everytime we sin that we are unforgiven? is it possible to be in Christ and unforgiven at the same time? If there is no forgiveness you cannot be in Christ. So according to your theology everytime we sin we are outside of Christ/unsaved

Our salvation includes Jesus sacrifice and perfect reighteousness AND our works of ongoing confession? sounds a little off thats all im sayin. Anytime we add something more than by grace thru faith in Christ it starts sounding like we are trying to add something to what Jesus says is finished or paid in full?

What did Jesus mean when He said, it is finished?

markdrums
Jan 6th 2009, 04:13 AM
I have to believe we're saved by GRACE alone... through our FAITH in Jesus...
Look at the theif on the cross...
All he did was ask that Jesus remember him.... Because he realized, & had TRUE FAITH that Jesus WAS INDEED the Messiah.

Jesus told him, "... today you will be with me in paradise".
There was no confessing of sin, no continual act of anything, no baptism....
Just his FAITH, and God's GRACE.

I agree that we can't just utter a "sinner's prayer" without belief, repentance, or faith & then we're automatically given a "get out of Hell free, card".... that's not what we're taught.

It takes REAL faith in Christ, & a real heart felt choice to make that decision.

THAT's the difference.
;)

Sirus
Jan 6th 2009, 04:22 AM
Mark 11:25-26 ( KJV ) 25And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. 26But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.
Ok so either we are talking about born again or not. Which is it? You tell me! :D
Hint: The context previously answers for you.

The other popular view dispelles this as required for salvation as well. Jesus is talking about prayer moving mountains (great things). Like, this kind only comes out by prayer AND fasting.

This is in no way a conditional forgiveness/salvation passage.

Butch5
Jan 6th 2009, 04:47 AM
Ok so either we are talking about born again or not. Which is it? You tell me! :D
Hint: The context previously answers for you.

The other popular view dispelles this as required for salvation as well. Jesus is talking about prayer moving mountains (great things). Like, this kind only comes out by prayer AND fasting.

This is in no way a conditional forgiveness/salvation passage.

Then explain to me how those with unforgiven sin enter the resurrection of the righteous?

Jesus was speaking to His disciples.

Butch5
Jan 6th 2009, 04:54 AM
I have to believe we're saved by GRACE alone... through our FAITH in Jesus...
Look at the theif on the cross...
All he did was ask that Jesus remember him.... Because he realized, & had TRUE FAITH that Jesus WAS INDEED the Messiah.

Jesus told him, "... today you will be with me in paradise".
There was no confessing of sin, no continual act of anything, no baptism....
Just his FAITH, and God's GRACE.

I agree that we can't just utter a "sinner's prayer" without belief, repentance, or faith & then we're automatically given a "get out of Hell free, card".... that's not what we're taught.

It takes REAL faith in Christ, & a real heart felt choice to make that decision.

THAT's the difference.
;)

The thief,

Luke 23:39-43 ( KJV ) 39And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. 40But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? 41And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. 42And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

The thief feared God, believed, repented, and confessed Jesus as Lord. He was not required to be baptized because the new covenant was not yet initiated, so he was saved under the old covenant.

militarywife
Jan 6th 2009, 05:11 AM
John 8:36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed. ;)

Sirus
Jan 6th 2009, 05:30 AM
Then explain to me how those with unforgiven sin enter the resurrection of the righteous?

Jesus was speaking to His disciples.Can you rephrase?
I didn't say forgiveness of sin isn't necessary but that it needs to be read and understood in context. The context says

Mar 11:10 Blessed be the kingdom of our father David, that cometh in the name of the Lord: Hosanna in the highest.
............
Mar 11:13 And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find anything thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.
Mar 11:14 And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter forever. And his disciples heard it.
Mar 11:15 And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves;
Mar 11:16 And would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the temple.
Mar 11:17 And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves.
Mar 11:18 And the scribes and chief priests heard it, and sought how they might destroy him: for they feared him, because all the people was astonished at his doctrine.
Mar 11:19 And when even was come, he went out of the city.
Mar 11:20 And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots.
Mar 11:21 And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away.

Now read it again!

Mar 11:22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.
Mar 11:23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.
Mar 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
Mar 11:25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have aught against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
Mar 11:26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

Clydson
Jan 6th 2009, 06:02 AM
Quick question:

If Christs' blood was insufficient for ALL sins, then what, or who forgives & covers the rest of them?

If God is outside of time & space, then he already knows ALL of our sins.... He knew our sins before the creation of the world itself.
Yet, he STILL came to die in our place, as a substitue sacrifice....

So why wouldn't ALL of our sins be covered at the cross?
I have not implied that the blood of Christ was insufficient for remission of sins. Do you believe that his blood remits sin without qualification? Can his blood remit sin left unrepented? If God requires repentance from sinners, where is the assurance He will forgive sins without it?

Now, how does one repent of sins that one has not committed? And how is one sorrowful for his transgression before he transgresses?

2 Cor 7:10
10 For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.
NASU

Jake

Sirus
Jan 6th 2009, 06:28 AM
I have not implied that the blood of Christ was insufficient for remission of sins. Do you believe that his blood remits sin without qualification? Can his blood remit sin left unrepented? If God requires repentance from sinners, where is the assurance He will forgive sins without it?

Now, how does one repent of sins that one has not committed? And how is one sorrowful for his transgression before he transgresses?

2 Cor 7:10
10 For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.
NASU

JakeYou didn't ask me but......
I wrote here how to repent of sin and how to repent biblically towards God.
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1929164#post1929164

Yukerboy
Jan 6th 2009, 11:49 AM
“If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that.” (1John 5:16) So yes, a Christian can sin, even commiting a sin that will send them to Hell. Can sin enter Heaven? No, that is why we confess our sins after baptism in order to take care of those sins after we become Christians. I am very aware of those passages you cited above and they make much more sense when you put them into context with the rest of Scripture.

Taking Scripture out of context is a euphemism for "I don't agree with the Scripture you stated"

God has already given Christians life so that brother who has not yet received life is NOT a Christian.

given life by Christ because it pleases Christ (John 5:21)
crossed over from death to life (John 5:24, Romans 6:13)

An 8 year old daughter pulls out a tooth. The father, who is a born again Christian tells her that if she puts it under the pillow, a tooth fairy will fly in through the window and replace it with money. He immediately wrecks the car and dies.

He did not repent, did not ask for forgiveness for his lie, his abomination even, his misleading of little children.

He is condemned according to you.

I, who do not condemn, say that being a born again Christian, meaning he believes and is baptized with the Holy Spirit, say that he has already crossed over from death to life.

mikebr
Jan 6th 2009, 01:54 PM
I guess all only means past....

Either Christ continues to sin or those who are born again do not.

There's no two ways about it. One or the other, your choice.

Maybe we don't truly understand righteousness. Righteousness is not a character trait, it is a position. We are righteous because of who's we are not because we do everything right. I have "the righteousness of Christ." Does that mean that I act like Christ; sinless? I don't think so. It does mean that I have the position as a son.

VerticalReality
Jan 6th 2009, 02:00 PM
Just wanted to point out right quick that there is a big difference between forgiveness and repentence. Repentence is still very much part of a believers walk. When we notice that we are doing something wrong or the Spirit convicts us of something we need to turn from whatever it is we are doing and try not to ever do it again. That is repentence. However, that doesn't mean that if you are doing something wrong that you now do not have forgiveness of your sins.

I think in all the religious-speak folks do not realize what it is they are actually saying. If I have to ask forgiveness everytime that I commit a sin then that obviously means that I'm not forgiven without doing so and I'm hellbound. So what that means is that every time we commit a sin we lose our salvation and we are no longer the Lords, which in turn means that we would no longer be born again of the spirit, which in turn means we are all going to go to hell after every single sin that we commit unless we happen to ask forgiveness.

Does this sound like security at all? Does this even remotely resemble the powerful work that our Savior finished on that cross? This doctrine doesn't even come close to it in my opinion.

What would happen if I commit a sin and for some reason I do not have an opportunity to ask forgiveness? What if I died in the process of sinning? Am I now condemned to an eternity in hell because I didn't have a chance to ask forgiveness before I died? If I do have a chance to ask forgiveness does that then mean that I'm being born again again? How many times are we going to be in need to be born again?

Jesus Christ's work on the cross was more victorious than that. Now, if one is going to deny the Lord and practice lawlessness then that is a different story all together. However, the true believer that is filled with His Spirit and has His righteousness imputed to him has more security than that.

Yukerboy
Jan 6th 2009, 02:10 PM
Maybe we don't truly understand righteousness. Righteousness is not a character trait, it is a position. We are righteous because of who's we are not because we do everything right. I have "the righteousness of Christ." Does that mean that I act like Christ; sinless? I don't think so. It does mean that I have the position as a son.

You have the righteousness of Christ.

Is Christ's righteousness perfect? If yes, then you have perfect righteousness.

Is Christ able to sin in His righteousness? If no, then you are not able to sin in your righteousness.

When you are righteous because of who you are, that my friend, is a character trait.

Yukerboy
Jan 6th 2009, 02:14 PM
If I have to ask forgiveness everytime that I commit a sin then that obviously means that I'm not forgiven without doing so and I'm hellbound. So what that means is that every time we commit a sin we lose our salvation and we are no longer the Lords, which in turn means that we would no longer be born again of the spirit, which in turn means we are all going to go to hell after every single sin that we commit unless we happen to ask forgiveness.

Does this sound like security at all? Does this even remotely resemble the powerful work that our Savior finished on that cross? This doctrine doesn't even come close to it in my opinion.

What would happen if I commit a sin and for some reason I do not have an opportunity to ask forgiveness? What if I died in the process of sinning? Am I now condemned to an eternity in hell because I didn't have a chance to ask forgiveness before I died? If I do have a chance to ask forgiveness does that then mean that I'm being born again again? How many times are we going to be in need to be born again?


Exactly, which is why I take the unpopular but Scriptural stance that one who is born again cannot sin, no matter what they do.

Once you are born again, you cannot become unbron again, You are a child of God forever.

Now, the secret is, making your election sure. You can believe you are born again, believe it is a license to sin, and go on sinning and then find Christ says "I never knew you".

Work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Make your election sure. These are exhortations for all who believe they are born again. Some are, some aren't.

appletonbill
Jan 6th 2009, 02:21 PM
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. (Romans 1:1,2 NIV bold mine)

Seems awful clear to me. Jesus freed us from the law of sin and death.:amen:

Yukerboy
Jan 6th 2009, 02:27 PM
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. (Romans 1:1,2 NIV bold mine)

Seems awful clear to me. Jesus freed us from the law of sin and death.:amen:

Very often, I don't take enough time to tell someone I agree completely with their post.

This is one of those times I will.

Absolutely, great post appleton.

Gregg
Jan 6th 2009, 02:31 PM
Exactly, which is why I take the unpopular but Scriptural stance that one who is born again cannot sin, no matter what they do.

Once you are born again, you cannot become unbron again, You are a child of God forever.

Now, the secret is, making your election sure. You can believe you are born again, believe it is a license to sin, and go on sinning and then find Christ says "I never knew you".

Work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Make your election sure. These are exhortations for all who believe they are born again. Some are, some aren't.

I think I understand what you are saying and agree with part of it. I did not read the whold thread, but will do so in the next day or two.

All of my sin happened after Jesus died on the cross. He knew me before the world was created. He gave me free will, he knew what I would choose. It is I who did not know. My eternal salvation/life has begun when I accepted Christ. None of my sins count against me, not because of my works, but because of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. My sins no longer count against me in the realm of eternity. However, I have practiced my sin nature so much that I still commit sins on earth (that are already forgiven) even though I do not want to. I then am convicted and grow and shed those things. God is teaching me the way. The work will be complete when I go to Heaven. So in Christ my sins are no more. That gift is what makes me want to do my best to stop the action of sinning on earth. For that I really need the power of God to help me.

Gregg
Jan 6th 2009, 02:33 PM
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. (Romans 1:1,2 NIV bold mine)

Seems awful clear to me. Jesus freed us from the law of sin and death.:amen:

Great post. This is what I was trying to say.

Yukerboy
Jan 6th 2009, 02:38 PM
ARGH!!!!!!

So close! I'm not tearing your post apart to show where I disagree but more so to show where I agree.


All of my sin happened after Jesus died on the cross. He knew me before the world was created.

Absolutely!


He gave me free will

Not once, in no place in the Bible will you find where we have free will


he knew what I would choose. It is I who did not know. My eternal salvation/life has begun when I accepted Christ. None of my sins count against me, not because of my works, but because of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. My sins no longer count against me in the realm of eternity.

Absolutely!


However, I have practiced my sin nature so much that I still commit sins on earth (that are already forgiven) even though I do not want to.

Paul said , I do that (sin) which I do not want to do. However, it is no longer I who do it (sin) but the sin living within me that does it (sin),


I then am convicted and grow and shed those things. God is teaching me the way. The work will be complete when I go to Heaven. So in Christ my sins are no more. That gift is what makes me want to do my best to stop the action of sinning on earth. For that I really need the power of God to help me.

Once again, absolutely!

And, if you are born again, it is God who works in you to will and act.

Gregg
Jan 6th 2009, 02:45 PM
ARGH!!!!!!

So close! I'm not tearing your post apart to show where I disagree but more so to show where I agree.



Absolutely!



Not once, in no place in the Bible will you find where we have free will



Absolutely!



Paul said , I do that (sin) which I do not want to do. However, it is no longer I who do it (sin) but the sin living within me that does it (sin),



Once again, absolutely!

And, if you are born again, it is God who works in you to will and act.


The fact that he knew what I would choose does not mean that he made me choose it. Just because no scripture is assigned to free will does not mean that scriptures do not shout it out. With out free will there is no choice. Without choice, there is no need to spread the good news.

Friend of I AM
Jan 6th 2009, 02:47 PM
I think that one should do their best in not trying to be concious of anything they deem sinful within themselves until the appointed time, all the while knowing that God himself is greater than anything that their concious may convict them of. Love covers up a multitude of sins. If we focus on being loving to others, as oppossed to what we think we're guilty of..then we won't have much to worry about. This is why Loving God and Loving others is so important in the Christian walk. It's greater than faith, and it's greater than the concious..because our hearts and the love of God within them can help us convict and overcome anything that works against us within our walks.

TrustingFollower
Jan 6th 2009, 03:27 PM
Once you are born again, you cannot become unbron again, You are a child of God forever.
Your statement here does not line up with scripture.

Hebrews 6

4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

This clearly says they had the Holy Spirit dwelling in them and they turned away. If the Holy Spirit is dwelling in them then they were born again believers and by their choice they turned away from the blessings offered through Christ. They were born again and then became unborn again as you have stated.

appletonbill
Jan 6th 2009, 03:28 PM
It is all pretty easy to understand when you think of it this way.

Let's pretend that I died. (not that I want to rush that :lol:)
Then let's pretend that I stand before God, and God asks me, "William", give me one good reason that I should let you enter my glorious kingdom".
Would I answer back, "Well God, I said I was sorry every time I glanced at a beautiful woman to long, and I said I was sorry for saying I was to busy to help someone, when I really wasn't". God says, "Ah, wait a minute, it says here in the big book, that you went home with a pencil from work in your pocket, and you did not confess it". "The law says you are guilty, so I cannot let you in".

Or would I say, "Because you gave your only Son, whom you loved so dearly, just for me".

Now, which answer, do you think, would please God the most?

VerticalReality
Jan 6th 2009, 03:34 PM
Your statement here does not line up with scripture.

Hebrews 6

4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

This clearly says they had the Holy Spirit dwelling in them and they turned away. If the Holy Spirit is dwelling in them then they were born again believers and by their choice they turned away from the blessings offered through Christ. They were born again and then became unborn again as you have stated.

Agreed. While we can feel secure in the fact that all our sins are forgiven in the Lord Jesus Christ if we believe, those who choose to deny Him and willfully walk away cannot say the same thing. Those who count the blood of our Savior as a common thing are insulting the Spirit of grace, and if they practice such lawlessness then it will eventually lead unto death.

Romans 6:16
Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

1 John 5:16-17
If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

Friend of I AM
Jan 6th 2009, 03:39 PM
It is all pretty easy to understand when you think of it this way.

Let's pretend that I died. (not that I want to rush that :lol:)
Then let's pretend that I stand before God, and God asks me, "William", give me one good reason that I should let you enter my glorious kingdom".
Would I answer back, "Well God, I said I was sorry every time I glanced at a beautiful woman to long, and I said I was sorry for saying I was to busy to help someone, when I really wasn't". God says, "Ah, wait a minute, it says here in the big book, that you went home with a pencil from work in your pocket, and you did not confess it". "The law says you are guilty, so I cannot let you in".

Or would I say, "Because you gave your only Son, whom you loved so dearly, just for me".

Now, which answer, do you think, would please God the most?

I think the best answer for all of us should ideally be "I don't deserve to be in here...and you can do with me what you wish."

Our walk in life should be characterized by the inherent understanding, that despite our most profound efforts to maintain our own sense of goodness, God is going to do with us what he wishes do be done with us to begin with.

I think of the story of Eli and his 2 wicked sons. He was told by the prophet Samuel that his sons would both die at the same time, and that his house would no longer be able to receive what God had promised them. Eli decided to move forward and accept God's punishment of him, despite knowing the outcome.

Firstfruits
Jan 6th 2009, 04:41 PM
I was taught in Sunday School that not only were you not forgiven each time you sinned, but there is only a limited amount of times that you could ask for forgiveness and still be forgiven.

I suppose the limit is up when you die as you cannot repent or be fogiven for your sins when you are dead.

Does this also apply to Christ when we sin against him?

Mt 18:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Mt 18:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

Lk 17:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

Or have you started counting, :eek: now what number did I get to?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

reformedct
Jan 6th 2009, 05:55 PM
I have not implied that the blood of Christ was insufficient for remission of sins. Do you believe that his blood remits sin without qualification? Can his blood remit sin left unrepented? If God requires repentance from sinners, where is the assurance He will forgive sins without it?

Now, how does one repent of sins that one has not committed? And how is one sorrowful for his transgression before he transgresses?

2 Cor 7:10
10 For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.
NASU

Jake


Repentance of sin is the natural response of the new heart. It begins with placing God at the center of your life. Recognizing that He is on the throne, turning from a godless unfruitful self-guiding life and coming under the joy of the king and allowing Christ to be your king. This does not mean that we are perfect, but that we recognize Him as our King and live our lives in light of that reality

reformedct
Jan 6th 2009, 06:00 PM
The Bible says while we were yet sinners WE were REconciled to God.

WHile we were yet sinners God reconciled us. So now that we are saved does sin unreconcile us?

So the Bible says God reconciled while we were yet sinners

But then when we sin we are unreconciled?

hmmmmm...:rolleyes:

Clydson
Jan 6th 2009, 06:15 PM
I have not implied that the blood of Christ was insufficient for remission of sins. Do you believe that his blood remits sin without qualification? Can his blood remit sin left unrepented? If God requires repentance from sinners, where is the assurance He will forgive sins without it?

Now, how does one repent of sins that one has not committed? And how is one sorrowful for his transgression before he transgresses?

2 Cor 7:10
10 For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.
NASU

Jake


Repentance of sin is the natural response of the new heart. It begins with placing God at the center of your life. Recognizing that He is on the throne, turning from a godless unfruitful self-guiding life and coming under the joy of the king and allowing Christ to be your king. This does not mean that we are perfect, but that we recognize Him as our King and live our lives in light of that reality
That may all be well and good, but perhaps a tad off of your OP.

You opened with, "I have been hearing many say that upon recieving Christ we are only forgiven for past sin? Did Jesus not pay the full price for every sin that we will commit?"

My point, without prejudice, has been the necessity, according to scripture, of one repenting before his sins will be forgiven. If this is so, and it is, I conclude that future sins being forgiven is not in alignment with divine teaching. Only a past sin, according to scripture, will be forgiven.

There exists, according to scripture, the solution of having all sins, past, present and future, forgiven, but it is resolved by repentance, which scripture describes as a resolution after the fact, not before it.

Jake

reformedct
Jan 6th 2009, 06:29 PM
That may all be well and good, but perhaps a tad off of your OP.

You opened with, "I have been hearing many say that upon recieving Christ we are only forgiven for past sin? Did Jesus not pay the full price for every sin that we will commit?"

My point, without prejudice, has been the necessity, according to scripture, of one repenting before his sins will be forgiven. If this is so, and it is, I conclude that future sins being forgiven is not in alignment with divine teaching. Only a past sin, according to scripture, will be forgiven.

There exists, according to scripture, the solution of having all sins, past, present and future, forgiven, but it is resolved by repentance, which scripture describes as a resolution after the fact, not before it.

Jake

i think you are confusing repentance unto salvation with the life of repentance(sanctification)

We are positionally in Christ. we are justified. It is impossible to be in Christ and not be forgiven. Now of course the unsaved must repent and believe. However once they do that they are in Christ and God has nailed their record of debt to the cross already. God took the list of every debt that you owed because of sin and nailed it to the cross. Christ paid it all.

Once we are positionally in Christ and in right standing, our lives are characterized by repentance, becoming more and more like Christ. But during this time of growth we are already justified. We already have peace. This is called sanctification where we learn and grow in holiness. The forgiveness of future sins is not unbibilical.

In fact the Bible says while we were yet sinners God reconciled us. God reconciled us before we were even born. This is why God could deal with Moses and David and Abraham, because He, being eternal, knew that before the foundations of the world His Son would pay the price for every sin Moses would commit. God is eternal He is not bound by time as we are. He treats us as He sees us in the full scope of eternity. To say we must continually "repent for forgiveness" must be properly defined. Once we are justified, we dont become unjustified later. Unjustification is more unbiblical imo. To say that we arent fully forgiven means that we are not fully justified.

There are only two teams: the forgiven and the unforgiven

there is no third team that is currently forgiven but if they mess up they will be unforgiven

Clydson
Jan 6th 2009, 06:57 PM
The Bible says while we were yet sinners WE were REconciled to God.

WHile we were yet sinners God reconciled us. So now that we are saved does sin unreconcile us?

So the Bible says God reconciled while we were yet sinners

But then when we sin we are unreconciled?

hmmmmm...:rolleyes:
I believe you're just a tad misleading. Consider Paul's own words;

Rom 5:10
10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
NKJV

Do you see the "if"? The "if" is a primary particle of conditionality. Not everyone, when an enemy, is reconciled. Why not?

Also, there exists another "if" concerning maintaining reconciliation;

1 John 1:7
7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
NKJV

"If" in this verse is also a conditional particle. What do you believe happens when one ceases his "walk in the light"?

Jake

Clydson
Jan 6th 2009, 07:01 PM
i think you are confusing repentance unto salvation with the life of repentance(sanctification)


Nope, just staying within the context of your OP...

Yukerboy
Jan 6th 2009, 08:05 PM
Your statement here does not line up with scripture.

Hebrews 6

4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

This clearly says they had the Holy Spirit dwelling in them and they turned away. If the Holy Spirit is dwelling in them then they were born again believers and by their choice they turned away from the blessings offered through Christ. They were born again and then became unborn again as you have stated.

OK, what we then have is a conflict in Scripture, for those who are born of God stay in God's family forever according to Christ.

So, either...

1. Hebrews lied and Jesus is correct,
2. Hebrews is correct and Jesus lied,
3. Hebrews is talking of a hypothetical case and none can fall away.
4. Jesus is talking hypothetically and no one is in God's family.

I'll take door #3.

yaza
Jan 6th 2009, 08:40 PM
Forgivness of our sins happens at conversion, my Faith teaches that is at Baptism. All our past sins are completely washed away. But after Baptism we still sin, at least I do unfortunately, so St. John gave us instruction of what to do for sins after conversion, 1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

But even the forgiveness of our sins through confession is still purchased through the work that Christ did not the Cross. All forgiveness of sins is possible only through the shed Blood of Jesus Christ, whether it's Baptism or Confession.
1john 1:9 john is not talking to believers but making an appeal to non-believers please read for context john uses words like"proclaim to you the eternal life" also "so that you may have fellowship with us" and "announce to you" clearly there are two groups of people here. also this so called doctrine is found no where in the old or new testament. jesus was the lamb of god who took away the sins of the world. if god is still counting our sins against us then none of us would be saved, christ took away the sins of the whole world there is no forgiveness left for sin christ entered the holy place once for all. now that our sins have been forgiven we come to jesus fo life. jesus is the one who will save us not ourselves. remember with man it is impossible. love yaza

Butch5
Jan 6th 2009, 09:00 PM
Can you rephrase?
I didn't say forgiveness of sin isn't necessary but that it needs to be read and understood in context. The context says

Mar 11:10 Blessed be the kingdom of our father David, that cometh in the name of the Lord: Hosanna in the highest.
............
Mar 11:13 And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find anything thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.
Mar 11:14 And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter forever. And his disciples heard it.
Mar 11:15 And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves;
Mar 11:16 And would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the temple.
Mar 11:17 And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves.
Mar 11:18 And the scribes and chief priests heard it, and sought how they might destroy him: for they feared him, because all the people was astonished at his doctrine.
Mar 11:19 And when even was come, he went out of the city.
Mar 11:20 And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots.
Mar 11:21 And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away.

Now read it again!

What's your point? Either way if they do not forgive then they are not forgiven. Jesus said the same thing in Matthew and the context is not the fig tree.

Matthew 6:9-15 ( KJV ) 9After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. 11Give us this day our daily bread. 12And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. 13And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. 14For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

If one's sins are not forgiven how doe they enter the kingdom?

Butch5
Jan 6th 2009, 09:02 PM
OK, what we then have is a conflict in Scripture, for those who are born of God stay in God's family forever according to Christ.

So, either...

1. Hebrews lied and Jesus is correct,
2. Hebrews is correct and Jesus lied,
3. Hebrews is talking of a hypothetical case and none can fall away.
4. Jesus is talking hypothetically and no one is in God's family.

I'll take door #3.

Or

5. You are understanding the Scriptures incorrectly.

MacGyver
Jan 6th 2009, 09:25 PM
Taking Scripture out of context is a euphemism for "I don't agree with the Scripture you stated"

God has already given Christians life so that brother who has not yet received life is NOT a Christian.

given life by Christ because it pleases Christ (John 5:21)
crossed over from death to life (John 5:24, Romans 6:13)

An 8 year old daughter pulls out a tooth. The father, who is a born again Christian tells her that if she puts it under the pillow, a tooth fairy will fly in through the window and replace it with money. He immediately wrecks the car and dies.

He did not repent, did not ask for forgiveness for his lie, his abomination even, his misleading of little children.

He is condemned according to you.

I, who do not condemn, say that being a born again Christian, meaning he believes and is baptized with the Holy Spirit, say that he has already crossed over from death to life.As for the dad who told his daughter about the tooth fairly, :lol: no, that is not a mortal sin by any means. Now if the father committed adultry, murder, theft, or other related things such as 10 Commandments, 1Cor. 6:9-10, Gal. 5:19-21 and then left this world without penance, then as St. Paul said, he "will not inherit the kingdom of God." Those are mortal sins, which st. John refers to as "sin unto death.(1John 5:16)"



I, who do not condemn, say
I don't condemn either, God is the Judge, not me. All I know is what He has revealed to us in His Word.

ProjectPeter
Jan 6th 2009, 09:29 PM
Or

5. You are understanding the Scriptures incorrectly.Ha! It is amazing that folks often times leave that out of their options! :lol:

MacGyver
Jan 6th 2009, 09:30 PM
1john 1:9 john is not talking to believers but making an appeal to non-believers please read for context john uses words like"proclaim to you the eternal life" also "so that you may have fellowship with us" and "announce to you" clearly there are two groups of people here. also this so called doctrine is found no where in the old or new testament. jesus was the lamb of god who took away the sins of the world. if god is still counting our sins against us then none of us would be saved, christ took away the sins of the whole world there is no forgiveness left for sin christ entered the holy place once for all. now that our sins have been forgiven we come to jesus fo life. jesus is the one who will save us not ourselves. remember with man it is impossible. love yazaNo, John said "If we confess our sins" not "If you confess your sins."

MacGyver
Jan 6th 2009, 09:32 PM
MAN!!!
That whole socks on the floor comment hit home like nobody's business! Has my wife been emailing you??????
:lol::rofl:

WHEW! That was a GREAT post!
I completely understand what you're saying now. No doubt abaout it!. I'll make sure to keep my socks where they belong.... and I'll even put the toilet seat down too!!!
;)

You definitley get some extra props for this post!!Yea, I've had my wife packing my bags over the socks in the floor!:lol:

TrustingFollower
Jan 6th 2009, 09:35 PM
OK, what we then have is a conflict in Scripture, for those who are born of God stay in God's family forever according to Christ.

So, either...

1. Hebrews lied and Jesus is correct,
2. Hebrews is correct and Jesus lied,
3. Hebrews is talking of a hypothetical case and none can fall away.
4. Jesus is talking hypothetically and no one is in God's family.

I'll take door #3.
Here lies the problem, there are no conflicts in the scriptures. So what you are saying either Jesus is lying or the Holy Spirit is lying. All scripture is God breathed and written through the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

#3 could not be the correct answer to this question. God has not used hypothetical cases anywhere in scripture. God has never speculated or doubted himself even when he was using different people to convey his message. So a hypothetical case would be speculating on God's part and that is not a character trait of God.

God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit all being fully God in the triune God head can not lie, so that only leaves how we interpret the scriptures as a possible conflict in the scriptures.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 6th 2009, 09:44 PM
Mark 11:25-26 ( KJV ) 25And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. 26But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

Hi Butch5

How do you think this un-forgiven trespass affects a child of God.

Another question if I may: Though it may not be forgiven, do you believe that it has nevertheless been paid for?

Partaker of Christ
Jan 6th 2009, 09:55 PM
Then explain to me how those with unforgiven sin enter the resurrection of the righteous?

Jesus was speaking to His disciples.

Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

2Ti 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:

Butch5
Jan 6th 2009, 10:01 PM
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

2Ti 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:

I don't follow how this shows that one who does not have forgiveness of sin can enter into the kingdom of God.

Butch5
Jan 6th 2009, 10:04 PM
Partaker---How do you think this un-forgiven trespass affects a child of God.

If we don't forgive others theirs sins, God won't forgive us ours


Partaker---Another question if I may: Though it may not be forgiven, do you believe that it has nevertheless been paid for?

I don't hold to the idea that Christ paid a debt for sin to God.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 6th 2009, 10:26 PM
Your statement here does not line up with scripture.

Hebrews 6

4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

This clearly says they had the Holy Spirit dwelling in them and they turned away. If the Holy Spirit is dwelling in them then they were born again believers and by their choice they turned away from the blessings offered through Christ. They were born again and then became unborn again as you have stated.

Hi TrustingFollower!

This passage lines up perfectly with what Yukerboy said.

It is basically saying that you cannot be born anew again. If that were possible, then that would put the sacrifice (died once for all sin) by the Son of God to shame. His sacrifice would be no better then the old way of regular sacrifice.
In fact the way many interpret this passage, would make this new way less affective then the old way. It would mean that the old way (though not perfect) would be the better way.

TrustingFollower
Jan 6th 2009, 10:41 PM
Hi TrustingFollower!

This passage lines up perfectly with what Yukerboy said.

It is basically saying that you cannot be born anew again. If that were possible, then that would put the sacrifice (died once for all sin) by the Son of God to shame. His sacrifice would be no better then the old way of regular sacrifice.
In fact the way many interpret this passage, would make this new way less affective then the old way. It would mean that the old way (though not perfect) would be the better way.
Verse 4 makes it perfectly clear that this is talking about a born again believer.

Hebrews 6

4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,

Being enlightened and tasting of the heavenly gift can not mean anything other than the fullness of the Holy Spirit. We know this by 2 Corinthians 5 with the Holy Spirit being a pledge from God about the glory that lies ahead for those that endure to the end. The Holy Spirit only is indwelling in those that truly believe.

2 Corinthians 5

5 Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 6th 2009, 10:41 PM
That may all be well and good, but perhaps a tad off of your OP.

You opened with, "I have been hearing many say that upon recieving Christ we are only forgiven for past sin? Did Jesus not pay the full price for every sin that we will commit?"

My point, without prejudice, has been the necessity, according to scripture, of one repenting before his sins will be forgiven. If this is so, and it is, I conclude that future sins being forgiven is not in alignment with divine teaching. Only a past sin, according to scripture, will be forgiven.

There exists, according to scripture, the solution of having all sins, past, present and future, forgiven, but it is resolved by repentance, which scripture describes as a resolution after the fact, not before it.

Jake

If anything I can do (or not do) can unsave me, then it cannot be God alone who saves us. If it is God, and I who saves, then we both claim the glory.

TrustingFollower
Jan 6th 2009, 10:46 PM
If anything I can do (or not do) can unsave me, then it cannot be God alone who saves us. If it is God, and I who saves, then we both claim the glory.
Does God force anyone to love him or does God love those that receive the gift he offered.

John 1

9 ¶There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 6th 2009, 10:53 PM
If we don't forgive others theirs sins, God won't forgive us ours

But how will the effect the child of God


I don't hold to the idea that Christ paid a debt for sin to God.

But then, if Christ did not pay that debt, even though one would repent, how can they be forgiveness?

Heb 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own,
Heb 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Yukerboy
Jan 6th 2009, 10:54 PM
Does God force anyone to love him or does God love those that receive the gift he offered.

John 1

9 ¶There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.


If it was left to man to choose God, no one would choose God.

The Born again:


Are chosen by Christ to know God. (Matthew 11:27, Luke 10:22)
Are put in the world by Christ (Matthew 13:24)
Are the only ones chosen from those invited (Matthew 22:14)
Are chosen by God (Mark 13:20, Romans 8:33)
Are given the right to become children of God from Christ (John 1:12)
Are not born children of God by human decision (John 1:13)
Are given life by Christ because it pleases Christ (John 5:21)
Are given to Christ by God (John 6:39, John 17:2)
Have been drawn to Christ by God (John 6:44)
Enabled to come to Christ by God (John 6:65)
Did not choose Christ (John 15:16)
Were chosen by Christ (John 15:16)
Were chosen out of the world by Christ (John 15:19)
Are appointed by God for eternal life (Acts 13:48)

Partaker of Christ
Jan 6th 2009, 10:56 PM
Verse 4 makes it perfectly clear that this is talking about a born again believer.

Hebrews 6

4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,

Being enlightened and tasting of the heavenly gift can not mean anything other than the fullness of the Holy Spirit. We know this by 2 Corinthians 5 with the Holy Spirit being a pledge from God about the glory that lies ahead for those that endure to the end. The Holy Spirit only is indwelling in those that truly believe.

2 Corinthians 5

5 Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.

Yes, it is talking of born again believers.

TrustingFollower
Jan 6th 2009, 11:07 PM
If it was left to man to choose God, no one would choose God.
John 1

9 ¶There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.

Who is enlightened in this passage?

Romans 1

18 ¶For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

Who has God made his power and divine nature known to?

Partaker of Christ
Jan 6th 2009, 11:19 PM
Does God force anyone to love him or does God love those that receive the gift he offered.

John 1

9 ¶There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Did God force His love on me? Yes

John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Does God force me to love Him?

When I realised who He was, and what He had done for me, how could I not love Him?

reformedct
Jan 7th 2009, 12:09 AM
If we don't forgive others theirs sins, God won't forgive us ours



I don't hold to the idea that Christ paid a debt for sin to God.


Colossians 2:14
14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

Who did we owe our debt to? satan? who did we sin against? who are we acountable to? who will judge us? If we didnt owe to God then who is God to cancel the debt that is not owed to Himself?

BroRog
Jan 7th 2009, 01:19 AM
Colossians 2:14
14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

Who did we owe our debt to? satan? who did we sin against? who are we acountable to? who will judge us? If we didnt owe to God then who is God to cancel the debt that is not owed to Himself?

Who says the "record of debt" was for sin?

yaza
Jan 7th 2009, 01:28 AM
No, John said "If we confess our sins" not "If you confess your sins."
you are still taking it out of context, so in your understanding after we confess and then sin in the next 10 minutes then get hit by a bus and die then we go to hell? please show me were in the bible this is taught? i understand our need to do something to be right with god,but it is christs rightiousness not ours remember when we sin it is not us but the sin that lives in us. we are told to confess our sins to eachother christ put an end to sin and entered the holy place once for all then he sat down. trust jesus he paid the price for the sin of the world so no one will go to hell for their sin, except for the sin of unbelief in jesus god made it real simple because he knows us,remember we are sheep and can do nothing for ourself ,but follow our sheperd jesus. so the next time you sin thank god for jesus. when we constantly ask for forgiveness we show unbelief in jesus's one time work of taking the the sins of the whole world and putting them behind the back of the father and as far as the east is from the west. this is the doctrine taught in the bible, god has set aside people for himself and our sin will not foil his purpose. god bless

TrustingFollower
Jan 7th 2009, 01:30 AM
Did God force His love on me? Yes

John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Does God force me to love Him?

When I realised who He was, and what He had done for me, how could I not love Him?
God did not force his love on you or me. God offered it freely to each of us and thankfully we both were smart enough to receive that love we are offered by God.

TrustingFollower
Jan 7th 2009, 01:31 AM
Who says the "record of debt" was for sin?
If it was not sin then what was the debt?

Sirus
Jan 7th 2009, 01:36 AM
Your statement here does not line up with scripture.

Hebrews 6

4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

This clearly says they had the Holy Spirit dwelling in them and they turned away. If the Holy Spirit is dwelling in them then they were born again believers and by their choice they turned away from the blessings offered through Christ. They were born again and then became unborn again as you have stated.No it does NOT! It doesn't say it happened to anyone. You translation makes it that way. Go back to chapter 5 and you'll see a point being made to the Jewish mindset of continual sacrifices and always having to 'do' something. The point is, grow up and go on to perfection and stop getting saved over and over because there's only one sacrifice, our Lord, and IF you loose it you can't get it back. That's a very BIG IF.
Now, where does it say anyone lost it? It doesn't. It's another warning, not an example.

TrustingFollower
Jan 7th 2009, 01:37 AM
you are still taking it out of context, so in your understanding after we confess and then sin in the next 10 minutes then get hit by a bus and die then we go to hell? please show me were in the bible this is taught? i understand our need to do something to be right with god,but it is christs rightiousness not ours remember when we sin it is not us but the sin that lives in us. we are told to confess our sins to eachother christ put an end to sin and entered the holy place once for all then he sat down. trust jesus he paid the price for the sin of the world so no one will go to hell for their sin, except for the sin of unbelief in jesus god made it real simple because he knows us,remember we are sheep and can do nothing for ourself ,but follow our sheperd jesus. so the next time you sin thank god for jesus. when we constantly ask for forgiveness we show unbelief in jesus's one time work of taking the the sins of the whole world and putting them behind the back of the father and as far as the east is from the west. this is the doctrine taught in the bible, god has set aside people for himself and our sin will not foil his purpose. god bless
Whoa there, settle down a bit let's not turn this into a personal attack against another member of the body of Christ. We are all believers here and need to salt our words a bit. Discuss the scriptures in a loving manor please.

MacGyver
Jan 7th 2009, 01:42 AM
you are still taking it out of context, so in your understanding after we confess and then sin in the next 10 minutes then get hit by a bus and die then we go to hell? please show me were in the bible this is taught? i understand our need to do something to be right with god,but it is christs rightiousness not ours remember when we sin it is not us but the sin that lives in us. we are told to confess our sins to eachother christ put an end to sin and entered the holy place once for all then he sat down. trust jesus he paid the price for the sin of the world so no one will go to hell for their sin, except for the sin of unbelief in jesus god made it real simple because he knows us,remember we are sheep and can do nothing for ourself ,but follow our sheperd jesus. so the next time you sin thank god for jesus. when we constantly ask for forgiveness we show unbelief in jesus's one time work of taking the the sins of the whole world and putting them behind the back of the father and as far as the east is from the west. this is the doctrine taught in the bible, god has set aside people for himself and our sin will not foil his purpose. god blessThere are 2 different kinds of sins, one that sends you to Hell and another that does not. If you confess your mortal sin and then 10 minutes later you do something like adultry, murder, steal and then get hit by a bus then yes, I'd say someone would likely go to Hell for being so careless about their spiritual life. Now if someone stubs their toe and blurts out a cuss word, of course that would not be a mortal sin, that would be what Paul called wood, hay, and stubble in which he said "However, he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."

Of course it is all merited by Christ that we receive grace to be forgiven, but confession and Baptism are instruments through which it is made availible.

reformedct
Jan 7th 2009, 01:43 AM
Who says the "record of debt" was for sin?

mmm ok, then what was the record of debt for? it was either for sin or for righteousness that we couldnt muster no?

this is so basic Jesus paid the price for our sins i cant believe we are even arguing over how much sin as if he only partially paid for it or as if somehow he partially extends forgiveness.

Im not trying to sound mean but i really do feel sad for some people on this board. I dont know everything but i do know Jesus paid the price for ALL of my sins and when i come to Him God said He will remember my sins no more

i hope i dont sound arrogant please forgive me if i do, but one of the reasons i am reformed is because once you step outside of that there is so much vagueness and confusion among the bretheren over issues like these. God is not the author of confusion. Im not trying to be mean but i believe that where there is confusion there is a lack of understanding. Thats why i believe we are:

called
regenerated (born again)
Converted (repentance and faith)
Justified (forgiven at this point, in right standing, peace with God)
Santification( God said He would cause us to walk upright before Him and be careful to observe His commands)
Perserverance( God is able to keep us and present us faultless)
Glorification (We are fully saved from the curse of sin as we recieve new bodies)



everytime i open up for a discussion to a doctrine contrary to this, (for the sake of hearing the argument of the otherside in fairness and realizing i may be wrong) i find so much confusion and contention:confused

also, most of the churches i know that have gone off into heretical teachings lately are not reformed.

TrustingFollower
Jan 7th 2009, 01:44 AM
No it does NOT! It doesn't say it happened to anyone. You translation makes it that way. Go back to chapter 5 and you'll see a point being made to the Jewish mindset of continual sacrifices and always having to 'do' something. The point is, grow up and go on to perfection and stop getting saved over and over because there's only one sacrifice, our Lord, and IF you loose it you can't get it back. That's a very BIG IF.
Now, where does it say anyone lost it? It doesn't. It's another warning, not an example.
Hebrews 6

4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,


The author of Hebrews was speaking of some specific people when he penned the words those that have been enlightened. Now if we know that all the scriptures are the work of the Holy Spirit then we can see that God is saying people have fallen away and also will fall away from the faith.

reformedct
Jan 7th 2009, 01:50 AM
Who says the "record of debt" was for sin?

mmm ok, then what was the record of debt for? it was either for sin or for righteousness that we couldnt muster no?

this is so basic Jesus paid the price for our sins i cant believe we are even arguing over how much sin as if he only partially paid for it or as if somehow he partially extends forgiveness.

Im not trying to sound mean but i really do feel sad for some people on this board. I dont know everything but i do know Jesus paid the price for ALL of my sins and when i come to Him God said He will remember my sins no more

i hope i dont sound arrogant please forgive me if i do, but one of the reasons i am reformed is because once you step outside of that there is so much vagueness and confusion among the bretheren over issues like these. God is not the author of confusion. Im not trying to be mean but i believe that where there is confusion there is a lack of understanding. Thats why i believe we are:

Elected (God chooses us ulitmately even though we do in turn choose Him)

called (hear the gospel)

regenerated (born again)

Converted (repentance and faith)

Justified (forgiven of all sin forever at this point, in right standing, peace with God, by one sacrifice he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified)

Santification ( God said He would cause us to walk upright before Him and be careful to observe His commands, in this way you see we are justified by faith and works, growing in holiness)

Perserverance ( God is able to keep us and present us faultless)

Glorification (We are fully saved from the curse of sin as we recieve new bodies)


Salvation is of the Lord Jonah 2:9



no confusion for me there!

Im not here to say my views are right and you guys are wrong,

but i am saying that everytime i open up for a discussion to a doctrine contrary to my reformed views, (for the sake of hearing the argument of the otherside in fairness and realizing i may be wrong) i find so much confusion and contention:confused

because i know i am a human and i have flaws, most of the time i open threads to give people with opposing views their interpretation and there is so much different inconsistent ideas out there

that being said i am simply a christian at the end of the day seeking for peace of mind and consistent Scriptural theology

yaza
Jan 7th 2009, 02:00 AM
Whoa there, settle down a bit let's not turn this into a personal attack against another member of the body of Christ. We are all believers here and need to salt our words a bit. Discuss the scriptures in a loving manor please.
im sorry my post is a little rough please forgive me, as im not very good at wording things. i meant no harm.

TrustingFollower
Jan 7th 2009, 02:08 AM
im sorry my post is a little rough please forgive me, as im not very good at wording things. i meant no harm.
Tis not a problem, it was merely a friendly reminder, No foul here.

God bless

yaza
Jan 7th 2009, 02:08 AM
There are 2 different kinds of sins, one that sends you to Hell and another that does not. If you confess your mortal sin and then 10 minutes later you do something like adultry, murder, steal and then get hit by a bus then yes, I'd say someone would likely go to Hell for being so careless about their spiritual life. Now if someone stubs their toe and blurts out a cuss word, of course that would not be a mortal sin, that would be what Paul called wood, hay, and stubble in which he said "However, he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."

Of course it is all merited by Christ that we receive grace to be forgiven, but confession and Baptism are instruments through which it is made availible.
when you confess your mortal sin where do you get your forgiveness from?

Sirus
Jan 7th 2009, 02:41 AM
What's your point? Either way if they do not forgive then they are not forgiven. Jesus said the same thing in Matthew and the context is not the fig tree.

Matthew 6:9-15 ( KJV ) 9After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. 11Give us this day our daily bread. 12And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. 13And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. 14For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

If one's sins are not forgiven how doe they enter the kingdom?Yep, and said it in Mark and Luke.
So, before someone can be born again and washed in the blood and forgiven for all their sin they have to forgive? Of course we should forgive and anyone that has been forgiven and continues in the faith will. These passages obviously have another application.

Several parables grant entrance to the kingdom of heaven (not God) based on works. Forgiveness would be one very big one. If they forgave and are then forgiven they are granted entrance into the earthly reign of Christ.

MacGyver
Jan 7th 2009, 03:04 AM
when you confess your mortal sin where do you get your forgiveness from?From God through the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

Sirus
Jan 7th 2009, 03:44 AM
and if you don't confess?

yaza
Jan 7th 2009, 03:47 AM
From God through the shed blood of Jesus Christ.
hebrews 10:18 now where there is forgiveness of these things,there is no longer any offering for sin. this is the new covenant which happened when jesus died on the cross and his will went to effect. the gospels which jesus said we will not be forgiven unless we forgive our brother is old covenant also,we are commanded to forgive each other just as he has forgiven us. can you see the contrast in the two covenants? love yaza

yaza
Jan 7th 2009, 03:59 AM
and if you don't confess?
if you are a believer the spirit will bug the stuffing out of you until you acknowledge it and thank god for the forgiveness he provided you through jesus. we are not held in bondage by the power of sin which is the law and i think we can agree that we are not to live by the law but we have freedom in christ. its really a heart issue and god knows that we are going to sin until we are made perfect on that great and glorious day, i can hardly wait!!! he is indeed our blessed hope. thanks for the question god bless

Sirus
Jan 7th 2009, 04:55 AM
and we are not under condemnation of being required or even asked to ask for forgiveness for that which has already forgiven! If your heart condemn you it is because you did not do what was pleasing in his sight, but God is greater than our hearts! Confession is not required. If you do what is pleasing in his sight you have confidence.
(1John 3:20-21)

God is greater than our hearts. His blood was more than sufficient and precious, and I do not frustrate the grace of God by asking for forgiveness of already forgiven sins. I do say 'that was dumb, I blew it Lord, I shouldn't have and I didn't have to, I chose to, there was no excuse for that because I am dead, and dead to sin by your cross, thank you for the mercy and forgiveness and new life I have in you by faith!'.

Did I ask for forgiveness? No. Did I acknowledge my sin and stupidity? Yes! Did I have to? No. Continued confession of sin has no place in the believers walk. The price has been paid. Once he died. Once he shed his blood. Not 2 trillion times!

Sirus
Jan 7th 2009, 05:00 AM
Hebrews 6

4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,


The author of Hebrews was speaking of some specific people when he penned the words those that have been enlightened. Now if we know that all the scriptures are the work of the Holy Spirit then we can see that God is saying people have fallen away and also will fall away from the faith.
'those' must exist?

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=153784

MacGyver
Jan 7th 2009, 11:56 AM
and if you don't confess?the opposite of what John says here, If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 7th 2009, 12:32 PM
God did not force his love on you or me. God offered it freely to each of us and thankfully we both were smart enough to receive that love we are offered by God.

Hi TrustingFollower!

Nothing at all to do with being smart enough?

Suppose a bullet is heading right in your direction, and someone jumps in front of you, and takes that bullet to save your life. Have they not forced their love on you?
Did it have anything to do with you being smart?

Yukerboy
Jan 7th 2009, 12:58 PM
Back to topic...

The original post is moot to me.

I stand here as one who believes in eternal security, yet I say that only sins committed in the past are forgiven.

While this may seem like a contradiction, it is not and the Bible bears it out.

Once you are born again, your mind being controlled by the Holy Spirit, you being a part of the Body of Christ, God working in you to will and act according to His good pleasure, having been freed from sin, the old self being crucified with Christ, being a slave to obedience and a slave to God, who fully meet the righteous requirements of the law, who are made righteous and are dead to sin, who cannot sin because he has been born of God, who are justfified from everything, who have crossed over from death to life, and are not condemned, you then cannot sin.

We don't become born again because we no longer sin, we no longer sin because we are born again.

There are no sins to forgive when one becomes born again, thus the only sins forgiven must be past sins.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 7th 2009, 02:38 PM
Back to topic...

The original post is moot to me.

I stand here as one who believes in eternal security, yet I say that only sins committed in the past are forgiven.

While this may seem like a contradiction, it is not and the Bible bears it out.

Once you are born again, your mind being controlled by the Holy Spirit, you being a part of the Body of Christ, God working in you to will and act according to His good pleasure, having been freed from sin, the old self being crucified with Christ, being a slave to obedience and a slave to God, who fully meet the righteous requirements of the law, who are made righteous and are dead to sin, who cannot sin because he has been born of God, who are justfified from everything, who have crossed over from death to life, and are not condemned, you then cannot sin.

We don't become born again because we no longer sin, we no longer sin because we are born again.

There are no sins to forgive when one becomes born again, thus the only sins forgiven must be past sins.

Almost on the same page Yukerboy!

Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

All sins committed (past, present, future) belong to the flesh, but we are no longer debtors to the flesh. We died with Christ when He died (2000 yrs ago).
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him,

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

This dead unto 'sin' is not about our actions, but a governing principle or power. The sinful nature. It is the law that makes sin appear sin.

Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

1Co 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence

2Co 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

TrustingFollower
Jan 7th 2009, 03:13 PM
Back to topic...

The original post is moot to me.

I stand here as one who believes in eternal security, yet I say that only sins committed in the past are forgiven.

While this may seem like a contradiction, it is not and the Bible bears it out.

Once you are born again, your mind being controlled by the Holy Spirit, you being a part of the Body of Christ, God working in you to will and act according to His good pleasure, having been freed from sin, the old self being crucified with Christ, being a slave to obedience and a slave to God, who fully meet the righteous requirements of the law, who are made righteous and are dead to sin, who cannot sin because he has been born of God, who are justfified from everything, who have crossed over from death to life, and are not condemned, you then cannot sin.

We don't become born again because we no longer sin, we no longer sin because we are born again.

There are no sins to forgive when one becomes born again, thus the only sins forgiven must be past sins.
If born again believer are completely sinless why would God discipline them?

Hebrews 12

6 FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES."

Firstfruits
Jan 7th 2009, 04:10 PM
Almost on the same page Yukerboy!

Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

All sins committed (past, present, future) belong to the flesh, but we are no longer debtors to the flesh. We died with Christ when He died (2000 yrs ago).
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him,

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

This dead unto 'sin' is not about our actions, but a governing principle or power. The sinful nature. It is the law that makes sin appear sin.

Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

1Co 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence

2Co 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

What therefore happens if our action are unrighteous?

1 Jn 5:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

Ie. if we have done anything against our brother/sister that is contrary Christs command to love one another?

Firstfruits

yaza
Jan 7th 2009, 04:39 PM
and we are not under condemnation of being required or even asked to ask for forgiveness for that which has already forgiven! If your heart condemn you it is because you did not do what was pleasing in his sight, but God is greater than our hearts! Confession is not required. If you do what is pleasing in his sight you have confidence.
(1John 3:20-21)

God is greater than our hearts. His blood was more than sufficient and precious, and I do not frustrate the grace of God by asking for forgiveness of already forgiven sins. I do say 'that was dumb, I blew it Lord, I shouldn't have and I didn't have to, I chose to, there was no excuse for that because I am dead, and dead to sin by your cross, thank you for the mercy and forgiveness and new life I have in you by faith!'.

Did I ask for forgiveness? No. Did I acknowledge my sin and stupidity? Yes! Did I have to? No. Continued confession of sin has no place in the believers walk. The price has been paid. Once he died. Once he shed his blood. Not 2 trillion times!
amen to that isnt god good to give us this great promise!!!!

Butch5
Jan 7th 2009, 06:37 PM
Yep, and said it in Mark and Luke.
So, before someone can be born again and washed in the blood and forgiven for all their sin they have to forgive? Of course we should forgive and anyone that has been forgiven and continues in the faith will. These passages obviously have another application.

Several parables grant entrance to the kingdom of heaven (not God) based on works. Forgiveness would be one very big one. If they forgave and are then forgiven they are granted entrance into the earthly reign of Christ.

So now the Jesus' statement is about the kingdom of heaven and not the fig tree?

Yukerboy
Jan 7th 2009, 06:42 PM
If born again believer are completely sinless why would God discipline them?

Hebrews 12

6 FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES."

For it is our spirit which is born of God, not the flesh, which is born of flesh.

Those whom the Lord loves are in the flesh and He disciplines them, though the spirit of those He has saved is sinless.

As Paul said, it is no longer I who sins, but the sin abiding within me that does it.

Butch5
Jan 7th 2009, 06:51 PM
Colossians 2:14
14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

Who did we owe our debt to? satan? who did we sin against? who are we acountable to? who will judge us? If we didnt owe to God then who is God to cancel the debt that is not owed to Himself?

You're using a poor translation,

Colossians 2:14 ( KJV ) 14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;


Christ blotted out hte Law which was contrary to us. Nothing here about a debt and more importantly, there is nothing in the Greek language about a debt. Now continue reading and you will see how He did it.


Colossians 2:15 ( KJV ) 15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

By destroying principalities and powers, not by a payment to God.

Two questions,

1. Where does Scruipture teach that we own a debt?
2. if Christ paid the debt for your sins, how were they forgiven?

TrustingFollower
Jan 7th 2009, 07:03 PM
For it is our spirit which is born of God, not the flesh, which is born of flesh.

Those whom the Lord loves are in the flesh and He disciplines them, though the spirit of those He has saved is sinless.

As Paul said, it is no longer I who sins, but the sin abiding within me that does it.
You can't separate your spirit from your flesh at this time. We consider our bodies dead by faith and faith alone, but we still have to answer for our actions in this body.

2 Corinthians 5

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Yukerboy
Jan 7th 2009, 07:17 PM
You can't separate your spirit from your flesh at this time. We consider our bodies dead by faith and faith alone, but we still have to answer for our actions in this body.

2 Corinthians 5

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

I understand what you are saying, but a good tree can only bear good fruit just as a person whose mind is controlled by the Holy Spirit cannot sin.

We will be recompensed for our deeds. And all the deeds of those who are born again are good.

TrustingFollower
Jan 7th 2009, 07:35 PM
Yukerboy, Are you still in your corruptible body or have you received an uncorrectable body?

Partaker of Christ
Jan 7th 2009, 10:16 PM
You're using a poor translation,

Colossians 2:14 ( KJV ) 14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;


Christ blotted out hte Law which was contrary to us. Nothing here about a debt and more importantly, there is nothing in the Greek language about a debt. Now continue reading and you will see how He did it.


Colossians 2:15 ( KJV ) 15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

By destroying principalities and powers, not by a payment to God.

Two questions,

1. Where does Scruipture teach that we own a debt?
2. if Christ paid the debt for your sins, how were they forgiven?

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death;

Death is the debt, owed as a wage for sin.

Butch5
Jan 7th 2009, 10:20 PM
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death;

Death is the debt, owed as a wage for sin.

If Christ paid that, then why do we die?

Yukerboy
Jan 7th 2009, 10:24 PM
Yukerboy, Are you still in your corruptible body or have you received an uncorrectable body?

Both.

My corruptible body is my flesh. Yet my Spirit is born of Spirit and is incorruptable.

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

Our imperishable spirit right now is clothed with the corruptable flesh, but at the last trump even that will change.

TrustingFollower
Jan 7th 2009, 11:24 PM
Both.

My corruptible body is my flesh. Yet my Spirit is born of Spirit and is incorruptable.

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

Our imperishable spirit right now is clothed with the corruptable flesh, but at the last trump even that will change.
Nope you can not have an uncorrupted vessel yet only the promise of one to come. Your spirit knows this and groans to be freed because you are still separated from the Lord while here on earth.
2 Corinthians 5

1 For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,
3 inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.
4 For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.
5 Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.

You have faith in the promise and can claim your salvation by faith only.

Yukerboy
Jan 7th 2009, 11:48 PM
Nope you can not have an uncorrupted vessel yet only the promise of one to come. Your spirit knows this and groans to be freed because you are still separated from the Lord while here on earth.

If that were true, then no one is born again. When someone is born again, their Spirit is born of Spirit. Their spirit is made incorruptable and is in Christ, never to be seperated.



2 Corinthians 5

1 For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,
3 inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.
4 For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.
5 Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.


Amen.


You have faith in the promise and can claim your salvation by faith only.

Amen to that too.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 7th 2009, 11:57 PM
If Christ paid that, then why do we die?

To be resurrected.

Sirus
Jan 8th 2009, 02:54 AM
the opposite of what John says here, If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If you don't confess when confronted with the cross you reject Christ and remain a sinner. If you do confess you are forgiven, saved, and born again. That's what that means. It is not continual else Jesus only died for the sins you ask for forgiveness for.

Sirus
Jan 8th 2009, 02:56 AM
So now the Jesus' statement is about the kingdom of heaven and not the fig tree?Both. You asked two questions.

Sirus
Jan 8th 2009, 02:59 AM
If Christ paid that, then why do we die?Jesus said, nothing deadly shall harm you. Paul was snake bit. If it is not the dead mans time to go, you can't kill the dead man. The body without the spirit is dead. That is why we do not die. We are dead and made alive by the Spirit. Make all the excuses you want......that's what it says....I'm just sayin'.....:pp

Butch5
Jan 8th 2009, 03:07 AM
Jesus said, nothing deadly shall harm you. Paul was snake bit. If it is not the dead mans time to go, you can't kill the dead man. The body without the spirit is dead. That is why we do not die. We are dead and made alive by the Spirit. Make all the excuses you want......that's what it says....I'm just sayin'.....:pp

So then believer never die?

Butch5
Jan 8th 2009, 03:08 AM
If you don't confess when confronted with the cross you reject Christ and remain a sinner. If you do confess you are forgiven, saved, and born again. That's what that means. It is not continual else Jesus only died for the sins you ask for forgiveness for.

John wrote that to believers

Butch5
Jan 8th 2009, 03:12 AM
To be resurrected.

If the wages of sin is death and that price was paid by Christ, then we should not also have to pay it. However, we do pay it, so either it gets paid twice or Christ did not pay a debt.

Were your sins paid for or forgiven?

MacGyver
Jan 8th 2009, 03:21 AM
If you don't confess when confronted with the cross you reject Christ and remain a sinner. If you do confess you are forgiven, saved, and born again. That's what that means. It is not continual else Jesus only died for the sins you ask for forgiveness for.John does not say in 1John 1:9 to confess that you are a sinner or that you are saved, he says that we are to "confess our sins", seriously, read it. What Christ did not the Cross is where confession receives its abilities as well as Baptism.

Sirus
Jan 8th 2009, 03:30 AM
John wrote that to believers
John wrote that to a church which always contains both believers and nonbelievers. He plainly says why he wrote to them. Seducers caused much confusion as to who was saved and who wasn't. That's why it is a contrast themed book and those verses that contain 'if we say' in the Greek are third class condition, that is, if we say -leaving it to the reader to decide. That is also why v8 and 9 are a contrast -sinner/saved

Sirus
Jan 8th 2009, 03:40 AM
So then believer never die?If you believe in Jesus you have passed from death to life.
It is appointed unto man once to die.

So let me ask you, those that are alive when Christ returns, do they die?

TrustingFollower
Jan 8th 2009, 03:41 AM
When we get into this having to confess every sin then we get back into the legalistic way just like the Galatians did. We are to confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in the resurrection and then we have the assurance of the promise from God.

Romans 10

9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Our faith in Jesus is the what we are to confess to the world not every little thing we every did wrong.

Butch5
Jan 8th 2009, 04:55 AM
John wrote that to a church which always contains both believers and nonbelievers. He plainly says why he wrote to them. Seducers caused much confusion as to who was saved and who wasn't. That's why it is a contrast themed book and those verses that contain 'if we say' in the Greek are third class condition, that is, if we say -leaving it to the reader to decide. That is also why v8 and 9 are a contrast -sinner/saved

Third class condition??? I've never heard of that in the Greek language.

John's was writing to believers so they could know what the false teachers were teaching that was in fact wrong. He was writing against the Gnostics. Whether or not there were unbelievers present is irrelevant. John was writing to ground believers.

Butch5
Jan 8th 2009, 04:56 AM
If you believe in Jesus you have passed from death to life.
It is appointed unto man once to die.

So let me ask you, those that are alive when Christ returns, do they die?

What does that have to do with the dicsussion? Christians die, therefore they pay the wages of sin. Why is it paid twice?

reformedct
Jan 8th 2009, 05:21 AM
What does that have to do with the dicsussion? Christians die, therefore they pay the wages of sin. Why is it paid twice?

Here is a question,

if Jesus didnt pay for all of our sin then who is going to pay the rest of the bill?

Sirus
Jan 8th 2009, 05:30 AM
Third class condition??? I've never heard of that in the Greek language.third class condition? google it. ....and 1John 1:9
....you should find greek scholar or translator mailing list discussing it.


John's was writing to believers so they could know what the false teachers were teaching that was in fact wrong. He was writing against the Gnostics. Whether or not there were unbelievers present is irrelevant. John was writing to ground believers.
that's what I said, i.e. church.

Sirus
Jan 8th 2009, 05:33 AM
Here is a question,

if Jesus didnt pay for all of our sin then who is going to pay the rest of the bill?Right. I didn't say paid twice, that's all you Butch5.
You are either crucified and dead and Christ lives in you are not. That's what it says. You know you are none of his if the Spirit is not in you. I make no excuses for the word of God. It's very clear on this matter. Just because people have a hard time looking at themselves in the flesh and believing it doesn't make God a liar.

I already died the death of Romans 5 physically and not having the tree of life, and spiritually as in being born with a veiled relationship with God. Jesus finished my physical death 2000 years ago when he put me in him and took me with him to his cross and he freed me from that judgment (Romans 8:1). You can say I am still here but then you doubt the God that calls those things that are not as though they are.

Butch5
Jan 8th 2009, 12:49 PM
Here is a question,

if Jesus didnt pay for all of our sin then who is going to pay the rest of the bill?

What bill would that be?

Butch5
Jan 8th 2009, 12:55 PM
Right. I didn't say paid twice, that's all you Butch5.
You are either crucified and dead and Christ lives in you are not. That's what it says. You know you are none of his if the Spirit is not in you. I make no excuses for the word of God. It's very clear on this matter. Just because people have a hard time looking at themselves in the flesh and believing it doesn't make God a liar.

I already died the death of Romans 5 physically and not having the tree of life, and spiritually as in being born with a veiled relationship with God. Jesus finished my physical death 2000 years ago when he put me in him and took me with him to his cross and he freed me from that judgment (Romans 8:1). You can say I am still here but then you doubt the God that calls those things that are not as though they are.

I don't have a hard time with the word of God. It all fits together nicely. However, let's address the question. Do believers die? If they do, then they are paying the wages for their sin. If that is the case, and Christ also paid for their sins, then their sins are being paid for twice.

Another question, if your sins are paid for, how are they forgiven? It can't be both, you either pay a debt or it is forgiven.

TrustingFollower
Jan 8th 2009, 02:46 PM
I already died the death of Romans 5 physically and not having the tree of life, and spiritually as in being born with a veiled relationship with God. Jesus finished my physical death 2000 years ago when he put me in him and took me with him to his cross and he freed me from that judgment (Romans 8:1). You can say I am still here but then you doubt the God that calls those things that are not as though they are.
So you are saying you will never physically die?

reformedct
Jan 8th 2009, 05:29 PM
So you are saying you will never physically die?


physical death is because it is appointed once for men to die. But cessation of physical life does not mean cessation of existence. In one sense, no one ever really dies. Everyone will be resurrected and even when they physically die they are not non-existent. Jesus said that those who believe in Him will never die. Death and life is bigger than the breakdown of our physical bodies. Life is existence with God. Death is existence without God. So no, us Christians will never "die". We still suffer the effects of sin. Death spread because of Adam. We still suffer from Adams sin. If someone comes up to you and punches you you will hurt. You will feel and experience the effects. It doesnt mean that Christ didnt pay fully for sin, its that the fullness of redemption is not yet our present reality. God has already judged "death". Death will be thrown in the lake of fire, but we are not living in that reality yet. We are already seated in heavenly places, but we are not experiencing the fullness of that reality. As Jesus said, whoever believes in me will never die, he has passed from death to life. We still die because we arent living in the fullness of that promise until Christ returns. Thats why we say Come quickly Lord Jesus.

Just as He has freed us from the bondage of sin, yet we still desire sin in our flesh. We are indeed shelled in a sinful shell, but the fullness of the promise is coming. In the same way Christ paid for ALL of our sin, even though currently we still experience hurt and pain and death(effects of sin)

TrustingFollower
Jan 8th 2009, 06:18 PM
physical death is because it is appointed once for men to die. But cessation of physical life does not mean cessation of existence. In one sense, no one ever really dies. Everyone will be resurrected and even when they physically die they are not non-existent. Jesus said that those who believe in Him will never die. Death and life is bigger than the breakdown of our physical bodies. Life is existence with God. Death is existence without God. So no, us Christians will never "die". We still suffer the effects of sin. Death spread because of Adam. We still suffer from Adams sin. If someone comes up to you and punches you you will hurt. You will feel and experience the effects. It doesnt mean that Christ didnt pay fully for sin, its that the fullness of redemption is not yet our present reality. God has already judged "death". Death will be thrown in the lake of fire, but we are not living in that reality yet. We are already seated in heavenly places, but we are not experiencing the fullness of that reality. As Jesus said, whoever believes in me will never die, he has passed from death to life. We still die because we arent living in the fullness of that promise until Christ returns. Thats why we say Come quickly Lord Jesus.

Just as He has freed us from the bondage of sin, yet we still desire sin in our flesh. We are indeed shelled in a sinful shell, but the fullness of the promise is coming. In the same way Christ paid for ALL of our sin, even though currently we still experience hurt and pain and death(effects of sin)
I agree with what you are saying in this post and will say this is a very good post. What I was asking the other member was if they believe what they stated in their other post. They stated the already physically died. We know that Jesus is the first fruit of all that will be saved. Jesus physically died and we will also die physically. Jesus was physically resurrected and so will we be physically resurrected. To claim that someone has physically died and been resurrected already is a lie because Jesus is the only one that has this glory as of now. On the day of his physical return to this earth we to will be granted that same glory, but not until then. Jesus is the example that proves God's promises to us.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 8th 2009, 10:59 PM
I agree with what you are saying in this post and will say this is a very good post. What I was asking the other member was if they believe what they stated in their other post. They stated the already physically died. We know that Jesus is the first fruit of all that will be saved. Jesus physically died and we will also die physically. Jesus was physically resurrected and so will we be physically resurrected. To claim that someone has physically died and been resurrected already is a lie because Jesus is the only one that has this glory as of now. On the day of his physical return to this earth we to will be granted that same glory, but not until then. Jesus is the example that proves God's promises to us.

Hi Trustingfollower!

I agree with reformedct (good post) and I agree with your points.

Can we look at what Paul said in Romans 6:

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Paul said that we have been planted together in the likeness of His death. (that was a physical death)

When I gave my life to Christ in 1962, I was counted as the dead in Christ. It means that when Jesus was crucified 2000 years ago, I was (by the Holy Spirit) in Christ crucified with Him.

From God's view point (I AM) we are dead, but from our view point (time and space) we are to pass through the shadow of death. It is just as Satan and death and sin, were defeated 2000 years ago at the cross. It is done and it is finished. From our view point we see Satan, death and sin being defeated.

What Paul said to do was:
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord

'Recon' yourselves to be dead. Or, do the maths, do the accounts, add it up.

From God's view point, we have Salvation.
From our view point we are receiving Salvation.

From God's view point, we are seated in the Heavenly Places.
From our view point, we will be seated in the Heavenly Places.

What we need to do, is see it from God's view point, above our own view point. Recon on it.

If we cannot recon ourselves to be dead, then perhaps we should not be baptised. For baptism is burial, and you only should bury the dead, but some are buried alive. :eek: :lol:

Sirus
Jan 9th 2009, 01:24 AM
However, let's address the question. Do believers die? If they do, then they are paying the wages for their sin. If that is the case, and Christ also paid for their sins, then their sins are being paid for twice.Yes. All believers physically die. Scripture says;

For the love of God constrains us because we thus judge that if Christ died for all then all were dead.


Another question, if your sins are paid for, how are they forgiven? It can't be both, you either pay a debt or it is forgiven.Christ paid the debt and forgave us.

Exactly what have I said that is not bible basics 101? :(

Sirus
Jan 9th 2009, 01:36 AM
So you are saying you will never physically die?I already have. Yet, I am still in this earthen vessel. You may see this old body drop one day and say 'he died' because that is what you see. Or Christ may return and I will be changed instantly.

The believer was crucified with Christ, is already dead, has passed from death to life, and is alive because Christ lives in him. That is what it says, regardless of our experience. If believers being changed and caught up at his appearing doesn't prove what I have merely quoted from the the bible then nothing will.

TrustingFollower
Jan 9th 2009, 01:41 AM
Hi Trustingfollower!

I agree with reformedct (good post) and I agree with your points.

Can we look at what Paul said in Romans 6:

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Paul said that we have been planted together in the likeness of His death. (that was a physical death)

When I gave my life to Christ in 1962, I was counted as the dead in Christ. It means that when Jesus was crucified 2000 years ago, I was (by the Holy Spirit) in Christ crucified with Him.

From God's view point (I AM) we are dead, but from our view point (time and space) we are to pass through the shadow of death. It is just as Satan and death and sin, were defeated 2000 years ago at the cross. It is done and it is finished. From our view point we see Satan, death and sin being defeated.

What Paul said to do was:
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord

'Recon' yourselves to be dead. Or, do the maths, do the accounts, add it up.

From God's view point, we have Salvation.
From our view point we are receiving Salvation.

From God's view point, we are seated in the Heavenly Places.
From our view point, we will be seated in the Heavenly Places.

What we need to do, is see it from God's view point, above our own view point. Recon on it.

If we cannot recon ourselves to be dead, then perhaps we should not be baptised. For baptism is burial, and you only should bury the dead, but some are buried alive. :eek: :lol:
I understand what you are saying here and this too is a great post. While I agree that I consider myself dead by faith I also have to consider what Jesus spoke about. Will he find faith on this earth when he returns. I think it is a vital importance that we as mature Christians teach about faith and why faith is so vitally important.

TrustingFollower
Jan 9th 2009, 01:46 AM
I already have. Yet, I am still in this earthen vessel. You may see this old body drop one day and say 'he died' because that is what you see. Or Christ may return and I will be changed instantly.

The believer was crucified with Christ, is already dead, has passed from death to life, and is alive because Christ lives in him. That is what it says, regardless of our experience. If believers being changed and caught up at his appearing doesn't prove what I have merely quoted from the the bible then nothing will.
But then you are throwing out some very important scripture and the teaching that is intended with the scripture.

1 Corinthians 15

35 ¶But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?"
36 You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies;
37 and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else.
38 But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish.
40 There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
42 ¶So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
45 So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

And because Christ died physically we also have to die physically. Christ is the first fruit of all of us that will be part of the first resurrection.

Sirus
Jan 9th 2009, 02:22 AM
But then you are throwing out some very important scripture and the teaching that is intended with the scripture.

Oh look and it's in the same passage....
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Again I ask......when do they die?

Take a look at what you posted
1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

What did Jesus say?
Joh 12:23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.
Joh 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

Butch5
Jan 9th 2009, 04:01 AM
Sirus---Yes. All believers physically die. Scripture says;

For the love of God constrains us because we thus judge that if Christ died for all then all were dead.


That use of dead is a metaphor, howeve Paul said the wages of sin is death. We all die for our sins, if there is a debt why is it paid twice?


Sirus---Christ paid the debt and forgave us.

Exactly what have I said that is not bible basics 101? :(


Simple, a debt is either paid or forgiven, it cannot be both. If I owe you $100, the only way to reconcile the debt is, either I pay you the $100, or you forgive the debt. If I pay you, then you have not and cannot forgive the debt. Likewise, if you forgive the debt, I do not pay it.

reformedct
Jan 9th 2009, 04:14 AM
That use of dead is a metaphor, howeve Paul said the wages of sin is death. We all die for our sins, if there is a debt why is it paid twice?



Simple, a debt is either paid or forgiven, it cannot be both. If I owe you $100, the only way to reconcile the debt is, either I pay you the $100, or you forgive the debt. If I pay you, then you have not and cannot forgive the debt. Likewise, if you forgive the debt, I do not pay it.

it is not paid twice. It was paid once. However we are not experiencing the fullness of what He purchased. He purchased us with His blood for heaven forever. Are you literally living in the reality of heaven right now? NO. Does that mean Jesus didnt pay the full price? no. It means you havent yet recieved the fullness of what was purchased.

If i bought you a brand new car and then mailed the parts to you individually, one part a week, does that mean i havent bought you the whole car? No, you just havent recieved the fullness of the car, so you still must walk until you recieve its fullness lol

We still die. Does that mean Jesus didnt pay the full price for sin? No. It means we havent recieved the fullness of that payment, meaning we are not all literally and fully in heaven at this moment. We are still on Earth. Does that mean Jesus didnt pay the cost for us to go to heaven? no. DOes that mean He didnt pay the price of our sin? no. No sin can enter the kingdom of God, and only Jesus can pay for sin because He was sinless. If He didnt pay for the wages of sin in full then who will and how the heck will we get into heaven with unpaid sin. We cant, we would have to go to hell.

Jesus paying the price for all your sin is like Christianity 101 dudes

Jesus paid the debt so that we CAN be forgiven. God is just. He doesnt just say, o you murdered, and raped people, well thats Ok i forgive you. What a sick God that would be. Just imagine if that happened in a mordern day court.


Thats the whole reason why Jesus died. He payed the price we could not pay. Because He paid the debt, God is just in justifying the ungodly, because blood has been paid. The wages of sin is death, and so Christ died. He payed the wages so our Father could justly forgive us

If God simply forgave us without the price being paid He would not be Just

If Jesus didnt pay the price for sin then why the hell did He even come and die on the cross? He coulda just stayed in heaven and God could "just forgive us"

Im not trying to sound harsh but BUtch5 i have seen your stand on many doctrines in many threads and overall it seems your theology is kind of wacky lol

nevertheless i love you in Christ:hug:

Sirus
Jan 9th 2009, 04:47 AM
That use of dead is a metaphor, howeve Paul said the wages of sin is death. We all die for our sins, if there is a debt why is it paid twice?Not paid twice. Said that already.
Wrong, we die physically for the same reason Adam died physically. We don't have the tree of life. That is the condemnation (Rom 5 and 8) from Adam believers are no longer under IF they walk by the Spirit. Of course the other is spiritual but not applicable to the discussion.



Simple, a debt is either paid or forgiven, it cannot be both. If I owe you $100, the only way to reconcile the debt is, either I pay you the $100, or you forgive the debt. If I pay you, then you have not and cannot forgive the debt. Likewise, if you forgive the debt, I do not pay it.Did Jesus bare your sins? Were you bought with a price? What was that price? Did Jesus not die for our sins for us? You post 'wages of sin is death' and we die, so what? ...Jesus didn't and didn't crucify us? I thought you had no problem with the word?

I am not the one that brought debt into this you are

What does that have to do with the dicsussion? Christians die, therefore they pay the wages of sin. Why is it paid twice?You keep asking .... price paid twice, but you refuse to explain how those alive at his return do not die or if they do how. If it is just a metaphor then they die. Ok, when and how? Notice how scriptures that say we are alive say we are dead? Why is that?

TrustingFollower
Jan 9th 2009, 04:50 AM
But then you are throwing out some very important scripture and the teaching that is intended with the scripture.

Oh look and it's in the same passage....
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Again I ask......when do they die?

Take a look at what you posted
1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

What did Jesus say?
Joh 12:23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.
Joh 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
Well you are on to the right track here, but we have to look into more than just this to fully understand what is being taught through all this.

First we have to understand what makes us. God formed man from the dust of the earth.

Genesis 2

7 Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Then God told us the we will return to that dust.

Ecclesiastes 3

20 All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust.

So if we were made from the dust and will return to the dust, then something more must be going on with it all if some will be changed in the twinkle of an eye. So what about our soul and what makes up our soul. This brings us back to the creation story and I will use the KJV as it shows what I am getting at in a easier way to see it.

Genesis 2

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

So a soul is the union of our physical body made from the dust of the earth and the spirit that God breathed into us.

Now that we know this we can look at what Paul is talking about with knowledge to what the basic terms are because we now know what makes us who we are, a body and a spirit that makes up our soul.

So on to you question to me about verse 36.

1 Corinthians 15

36 You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies;

What is Paul talking about? He explains it further if we read it through. Parenthesis and emphasis are my comments to explain some things.

1 Corinthians 15

42 ¶So also is the resurrection of the dead. It (our bodies) is sown a perishable body, it (our bodies) is raised an imperishable body;
43 it (our bodies) is sown in dishonor, it (our bodies) is raised in glory; it (our bodies) is sown in weakness, it (our bodies) is raised in power;
44 it (our bodies) is sown a natural body, it (our bodies) is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
45 So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. (i.e. the first shall be last and the last shall be first)
47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.
49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 ¶Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Not all will sleep, but we know from the scriptures that every single body as we know it today will die. Our spirits groan for the imperishable body that will come at the resurrection. So those that are changed in the twinkle of an eye, they will die and be resurrected in a twinkle of an eye. The entire hope of our gospel is the resurrection of our imperishable bodies i.e. the fulfillment of what Jesus is the first fruit of. We do not get all new bodies, but rather our bodies back in a imperishable state that is uncorrectable.

Now you and I believe in the same thing except the way we see it. You are claiming it now where as I claim it by my faith in Jesus Christ. In the end we will both be in the same place if we endure to the end.

Butch5
Jan 9th 2009, 04:56 AM
Reformed---it is not paid twice. It was paid once. However we are not experiencing the fullness of what He purchased. He purchased us with His blood for heaven forever. Are you literally living in the reality of heaven right now? NO. Does that mean Jesus didnt pay the full price? no. It means you haven't yet recieved the fullness of what was purchased.

If i bought you a brand new car and then mailed the parts to you individually, one part a week, does that mean i havent bought you the whole car? No, you just havent recieved the fullness of the car, so you still must walk until you recieve its fullness lol

We still die. Does that mean Jesus didnt pay the full price for sin? No. It means we havent recieved the fullness of that payment, meaning we are not all literally and fully in heaven at this moment. We are still on Earth. Does that mean Jesus didnt pay the cost for us to go to heaven? no. DOes that mean He didnt pay the price of our sin? no. No sin can enter the kingdom of God, and only Jesus can pay for sin because He was sinless. If He didnt pay for the wages of sin in full then who will and how the heck will we get into heaven with unpaid sin. We cant, we would have to go to hell.

Jesus paying the price for all your sin is like Christianity 101 dudes

Jesus paid the debt so that we CAN be forgiven. God is just. He doesnt just say, o you murdered, and raped people, well thats Ok i forgive you. What a sick God that would be. Just imagine if that happened in a mordern day court.


Thats the whole reason why Jesus died. He payed the price we could not pay. Because He paid the debt, God is just in justifying the ungodly, because blood has been paid. The wages of sin is death, and so Christ died. He payed the wages so our Father could justly forgive us

If God simply forgave us without the price being paid He would not be Just

If Jesus didnt pay the price for sin then why the hell did He even come and die on the cross? He coulda just stayed in heaven and God could "just forgive us"

Im not trying to sound harsh but BUtch5 i have seen your stand on many doctrines in many threads and overall it seems your theology is kind of wacky lol

nevertheless i love you in Christ:hug:

My theology is wacky? How come I can answer all of your questions from Scripture yet you can't answer mine from Scripture?


Reformed---It is not paid twice. It was paid once. However we are not experiencing the fullness of what He purchased. He purchased us with His blood for heaven forever. Are you literally living in the reality of heaven right now? NO. Does that mean Jesus didnt pay the full price? no. It means you havent yet recieved the fullness of what was purchased.


You're skirting the issue, the wages of sin is death, Christ died for those sins and we die for those sins, the debt (your word) is paid twice.


Reformed---We still die. Does that mean Jesus didnt pay the full price for sin? No. It means we havent recieved the fullness of that payment, meaning we are not all literally and fully in heaven at this moment. We are still on Earth. Does that mean Jesus didnt pay the cost for us to go to heaven? no. DOes that mean He didnt pay the price of our sin? no. No sin can enter the kingdom of God, and only Jesus can pay for sin because He was sinless. If He didnt pay for the wages of sin in full then who will and how the heck will we get into heaven with unpaid sin. We cant, we would have to go to hell.


I never said Christ did not die for our sins, I said His death was not a payment to God.

PS, where does Scripture say we go to heaven?


Reformed---Jesus paid the debt so that we CAN be forgiven.

Where is this debt?


Reformed---God is just. He doesnt just say, o you murdered, and raped people, well thats Ok i forgive you. What a sick God that would be.


Wrong my friend, that is exactly what God did.


Matthew 18:21-27 ( KJV ) 21Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? 22Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.23Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. 25But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. 26The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. 27Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.

Jesus doesn't make any mention of anyone else paying the debt for this servant, He was guilty and the King just forgave him.


Reformed---Just imagine if that happened in a mordern day court.

It happens a lot, a person is charged with assault and the victim forgives and drops the charges.


Reformed---Thats the whole reason why Jesus died. He payed the price we could not pay. Because He paid the debt, God is just in justifying the ungodly, because blood has been paid. The wages of sin is death, and so Christ died. He payed the wages so our Father could justly forgive us


Here we are again with the debt being paid twice.


Reformed---If God simply forgave us without the price being paid He would not be Just

Why?


Reformed---If Jesus didnt pay the price for sin then why the hell did He even come and die on the cross? He coulda just stayed in heaven and God could "just forgive us"


Again, I didn't say He did not pay for our sins, I said His payment was not a payment to God.


Reformed---Im not trying to sound harsh but BUtch5 i have seen your stand on many doctrines in many threads and overall it seems your theology is kind of wacky lol


Well if you studied the Scriptures in depth, and study how the apostles doctrines were understood, you would not think my theology is wacky, because it fits with Scripture. You don't see me in here asking all of the questions, trying to fit the Scriptures together. I look at the entirety of scripture, if there is a single verse the goes against what I understand, what I understand immediately comes into question. I don't try to wiggle my theology around this verse or that verse. By subjecting my theology to every single verse, I have no problem verses.

Sirus
Jan 9th 2009, 05:06 AM
I said paid once.....twice....you can't read so I didn't read anything else you said.

echo....you refuse to explain how those alive at his return do not die or if they do how. If it is just a metaphor then they die. Ok, when and how?

Butch5
Jan 9th 2009, 05:11 AM
I said paid once.....twice....you can't read so I didn't read anything else you said.

echo....you refuse to explain how those alive at his return do not die or if they do how. If it is just a metaphor then they die. Ok, when and how?

Do you know what a metaphor is?

Sirus
Jan 9th 2009, 06:03 AM
Do you know what faith is?

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
Rom 4:18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
Rom 4:19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about a hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:
Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

Sirus
Jan 9th 2009, 06:07 AM
Not all will sleep, but we know from the scriptures that every single body as we know it today will die.Actually you don't know that.

"you refuse to explain how those alive at his return do not die or if they do how. If it is just a metaphor then they die. Ok, when and how?"

That's what I have been trying to get you and Butch5 to address yet neither of you have.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Firstfruits
Jan 9th 2009, 12:24 PM
Actually you don't know that.

"you refuse to explain how those alive at his return do not die or if they do how. If it is just a metaphor then they die. Ok, when and how?"

That's what I have been trying to get you and Butch5 to address yet neither of you have.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Would the following mean that in order to put on immortalty this flesh must die as the flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of God?

1 Cor 15:53 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 Cor 15:54 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1 Cor 15:50 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=50) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

I hope that helps,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Butch5
Jan 9th 2009, 03:21 PM
Sirus---Not paid twice. Said that already.
Wrong, we die physically for the same reason Adam died physically. We don't have the tree of life. That is the condemnation (Rom 5 and 8) from Adam believers are no longer under IF they walk by the Spirit. Of course the other is spiritual but not applicable to the discussion.


According to your statement it is paid twice, which is it?
And why don't we have access to the tree of life?


Sirus---Did Jesus bare your sins? Were you bought with a price? What was that price? Did Jesus not die for our sins for us? You post 'wages of sin is death' and we die, so what? ...Jesus didn't and didn't crucify us? I thought you had no problem with the word?


I don't have problem with the word. I said Christ's death was not a payment to God. I never said, He didn't bear our sins.


Sirus---I am not the one that brought debt into this you are
You keep asking .... price paid twice, but you refuse to explain how those alive at his return do not die or if they do how. If it is just a metaphor then they die. Ok, when and how?
Debt was the discussion when you entered the conversation.


Scripture does not tell us how they will die, however the Scripture that Firstfruits posted clearly shows that they will die, Tertullian also addresses this,
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 3

Chap. XII.—The Eternal Home in Heaven. Beautiful Exposition by Tertullian of the Apostle’s Consolatory Teaching Against the Fear of Death, so Apt to Arise Under Anti-Christian Oppression. The Judgment-Seat of Christ—The Idea, Anti-Marcionite. Paradise. Judicial Characteristics of Christ Which Are Inconsistent with the Heretical Views About Him; the Apostle’s Sharpness, or Severity, Shows Him to Be a Fit Preacher of the Creator’s Christ. As to the house of this our earthly dwelling-place, when he says that "we have an eternal home in heaven, not made with hands," (2 Corinthians 5:1) he by no means would imply that, because it was built by the Creator’s hand, it must perish in a perpetual dissolution after death. He treats of this subject in order to offer consolation against the fear of death and the dread of this very dissolution, as is even more manifest from what follows, when he adds, that "in this tabernacle of our earthly body we do groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with the vesture which is from heaven, (2 Corinthians 5:2-3) if so be, that having been unclothed, we shall not be found naked;" in other words, shall regain that of which we have been divested, even our body. And again he says: "We that are in this tabernacle do groan, not as if we were oppressedwith an unwillingness to be unclothed, but (we wish) to be clothed upon." (2 Corinthians 5:4) He here says expressly, what he touched but lightly in his first epistle, where he wrote:) "The dead shall be raised Incorruptible (meaning those who had undergone mortality), "and we shall be changed" (whom God shall find to be yet in the flesh). (1 Corinthians 15:52) Both those shall be raised incorruptible, because they shall regain their body—and that a renewed one, from which shall come their incorruptibility; and these also shall, in the crisis of the last moment, and from their instantaneous death, whilst encountering the oppressions of anti-christ, undergo a change, obtaining therein not so much a divestiture of body as "a clothing upon" with the vesture which is from heaven. So that whilst these shall put on over their (changed) body this, heavenly raiment, the dead also shall for their part recover their body, over which they too have a supervesture to put on, even the incorruption of heaven; because of these it was that he said: "This corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 3

For the apostle makes a distinction, when he goes on to say, "For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven, if so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked;" (2 Corinthians 5:2-3) which means, before we put off the garment of the flesh, we wish to be clothed with the celestial glory of immortality. Now the privilege of this favour awaits those who shall at the coming of the Lord be found in the flesh, and who shall, owing to the oppressions of the time of Antichrist, deserve by an instantaneous death, which is accomplished by a sudden change, to become qualified to join the rising saints; as he writes to the Thessalonians: "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we too shall ourselves be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17)



Sirus---Notice how scriptures that say we are alive say we are dead? Why is that?

Because in your quote death is a metaphor. How else could one be alive and dead?

reformedct
Jan 9th 2009, 03:34 PM
Just because we still die doesnt mean it is paid twice. As i said before we are not living in the fullness of what was purchased on the cross. Jesus died so we can go to heaven but yet we are still on Earth. Why didnt we zip up to heaven soon as we got saved? Because the consummation, the fullness of redemption still awaits. WHen we die, we are not paying the tab for sin. Jesus did that. We are simply not living in the fullness of redemption

As i gave the example before, if i buy you a computer, but i dissasemble it and mail you a piece at a time, one piece a week, you will never be able to use it until you have all the pieces. Does that mean its not paid for? No. It just means you havent recieved everything that was purchased yet

TrustingFollower
Jan 9th 2009, 03:44 PM
Actually you don't know that.

"you refuse to explain how those alive at his return do not die or if they do how. If it is just a metaphor then they die. Ok, when and how?"

That's what I have been trying to get you and Butch5 to address yet neither of you have.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
You are not facing the facts of what the bible says. This corrupted body you have now can not inherit the Kingdom of God. If your spirit is not in this body what will happen to the body you have now?

When you say you have died already then you are saying you already have your resurrection body and that my friend is simply a lie. Jesus is the only one that has the resurrection body now. When you are teaching that you physically died already then you are teaching a false gospel.

Butch5
Jan 9th 2009, 04:10 PM
Just because we still die doesnt mean it is paid twice. As i said before we are not living in the fullness of what was purchased on the cross. Jesus died so we can go to heaven but yet we are still on Earth. Why didnt we zip up to heaven soon as we got saved? Because the consummation, the fullness of redemption still awaits. WHen we die, we are not paying the tab for sin. Jesus did that. We are simply not living in the fullness of redemption

As i gave the example before, if i buy you a computer, but i dissasemble it and mail you a piece at a time, one piece a week, you will never be able to use it until you have all the pieces. Does that mean its not paid for? No. It just means you havent recieved everything that was purchased yet

It has nothing to do with the fulness of what was pruchased. The issue is the purchase, Paul says the wages of sin is death, we die because we sin.

Romans 5:12 ( KJV ) 12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

We die because we sin. If that sin is a debt that Christ paid, then it is paid twice

yaza
Jan 9th 2009, 07:41 PM
John does not say in 1John 1:9 to confess that you are a sinner or that you are saved, he says that we are to "confess our sins", seriously, read it. What Christ did not the Cross is where confession receives its abilities as well as Baptism.
is this baptism you speak of water baptism or baptism of the holy spirit? and how are the sins of the thief and the old test. saints foregiven? how will they get to heaven doesnt he save them and make them perfect the same way he does us? god bless yaza

MacGyver
Jan 9th 2009, 08:57 PM
is this baptism you speak of water baptism or baptism of the holy spirit? and how are the sins of the thief and the old test. saints foregiven? how will they get to heaven doesnt he save them and make them perfect the same way he does us? god bless yaza"Baptism of the Holy Spirit" comes when you are Baptized in water, while the out-pouring of the Holy Spirit comes by the laying on of hands, my Faith calls it Confirmation. Water Baptism does not wash away our sins by the nature of the water but by the power of Holy Spirit working within the water.

As for the thief on the Cross, there are exceptions where people would be considered to have the Baptism of desire, that is when someone who would have gotten Baptize but something has prevented them from it, such as the theif on the Cross. There is another exception too when those who have never had the Gospel given to them for whatever reason, but God with His All-Knowing ability knows how they would have responded if they had been given the opportunity, especially for those who live or have lived in areas where the Gospel has never reached.

OT saints were saved by looking forward to the Cross of Christ.

Butch5
Jan 9th 2009, 10:06 PM
Do you know what faith is?

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
Rom 4:18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
Rom 4:19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about a hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:
Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

What's your point?

Butch5
Jan 9th 2009, 10:14 PM
is this baptism you speak of water baptism or baptism of the holy spirit? and how are the sins of the thief and the old test. saints foregiven? how will they get to heaven doesnt he save them and make them perfect the same way he does us? god bless yaza

The OT saints were most likely baptized when Christ preached to them.


1 Peter 3:18-20 ( KJV ) 18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.


1 Peter 4:4-6 ( KJV ) 4Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you: 5Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. 6For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 9th 2009, 11:37 PM
But then you are throwing out some very important scripture and the teaching that is intended with the scripture.

1 Corinthians 15

35 ¶But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?"
36 You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies;
37 and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else.
38 But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish.
40 There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
42 ¶So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
45 So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

And because Christ died physically we also have to die physically. Christ is the first fruit of all of us that will be part of the first resurrection.

Hi again TrustingFollower!

This may, or may not help us to understand.

What is the difference between a healing, and a miracle healing?

The miracle healing, is the healing with the time taken out of it. They are both healings, but one is quickened, by the Spirit. In both circumstances the askers who ask according to the promises of God, have to believe that what they ask for, they have received.

If I am correct your understanding is, by faith I will receive Salvation. My faith is I have received.
To receive resurrection life, there has first to be burial. How can we have a burial without a death. How can there be resurrection without first having death and burial?

My death, burial and resurrection is a done thing, but just like the healing the time element remains.

When a person receives healing, you will see improvements in their health over a period of time, until they are fully healed. Seeing the improvements is the (fruit) evidence of true faith that will endure to the completion.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 9th 2009, 11:42 PM
If the wages of sin is death and that price was paid by Christ, then we should not also have to pay it. However, we do pay it, so either it gets paid twice or Christ did not pay a debt.

Were your sins paid for or forgiven?

Both

God will only accept a perfect sacrifice, for sin. He would not accept defect animals to cover sin. Jesus was that perfect sacrifice.

yaza
Jan 10th 2009, 12:57 AM
"Baptism of the Holy Spirit" comes when you are Baptized in water, while the out-pouring of the Holy Spirit comes by the laying on of hands, my Faith calls it Confirmation. Water Baptism does not wash away our sins by the nature of the water but by the power of Holy Spirit working within the water.

As for the thief on the Cross, there are exceptions where people would be considered to have the Baptism of desire, that is when someone who would have gotten Baptize but something has prevented them from it, such as the theif on the Cross. There is another exception too when those who have never had the Gospel given to them for whatever reason, but God with His All-Knowing ability knows how they would have responded if they had been given the opportunity, especially for those who live or have lived in areas where the Gospel has never reached.

OT saints were saved by looking forward to the Cross of Christ.
paul said christ sent him to preach the gospel not baptize. believing in the gospel,is all you need if the spirit leads you to baptisism {like he did in my case} thats great, the sins you refer to have been put behind the back of the father. remember; who could stand if he should count our sins? THE ANSWER IS NO ONE GOD WAS IN CHRIST RECONCILING THE THE WHOLE WORLD TO HIMSELF,NOT COUNTING MENS SINS AGAINST THEM. we are not saved by christs death we are saved by his life if you are dead all you need is life he did it for jesus he promises he will do it for us. god bless

yaza
Jan 10th 2009, 01:02 AM
According to your statement it is paid twice, which is it?
And why don't we have access to the tree of life?



I don't have problem with the word. I said Christ's death was not a payment to God. I never said, He didn't bear our sins.



Scripture does not tell us how they will die, however the Scripture that Firstfruits posted clearly shows that they will die, Tertullian also addresses this,
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 3

Chap. XII.—The Eternal Home in Heaven. Beautiful Exposition by Tertullian of the Apostle’s Consolatory Teaching Against the Fear of Death, so Apt to Arise Under Anti-Christian Oppression. The Judgment-Seat of Christ—The Idea, Anti-Marcionite. Paradise. Judicial Characteristics of Christ Which Are Inconsistent with the Heretical Views About Him; the Apostle’s Sharpness, or Severity, Shows Him to Be a Fit Preacher of the Creator’s Christ. As to the house of this our earthly dwelling-place, when he says that "we have an eternal home in heaven, not made with hands," (2 Corinthians 5:1) he by no means would imply that, because it was built by the Creator’s hand, it must perish in a perpetual dissolution after death. He treats of this subject in order to offer consolation against the fear of death and the dread of this very dissolution, as is even more manifest from what follows, when he adds, that "in this tabernacle of our earthly body we do groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with the vesture which is from heaven, (2 Corinthians 5:2-3) if so be, that having been unclothed, we shall not be found naked;" in other words, shall regain that of which we have been divested, even our body. And again he says: "We that are in this tabernacle do groan, not as if we were oppressedwith an unwillingness to be unclothed, but (we wish) to be clothed upon." (2 Corinthians 5:4) He here says expressly, what he touched but lightly in his first epistle, where he wrote:) "The dead shall be raised Incorruptible (meaning those who had undergone mortality), "and we shall be changed" (whom God shall find to be yet in the flesh). (1 Corinthians 15:52) Both those shall be raised incorruptible, because they shall regain their body—and that a renewed one, from which shall come their incorruptibility; and these also shall, in the crisis of the last moment, and from their instantaneous death, whilst encountering the oppressions of anti-christ, undergo a change, obtaining therein not so much a divestiture of body as "a clothing upon" with the vesture which is from heaven. So that whilst these shall put on over their (changed) body this, heavenly raiment, the dead also shall for their part recover their body, over which they too have a supervesture to put on, even the incorruption of heaven; because of these it was that he said: "This corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 3

For the apostle makes a distinction, when he goes on to say, "For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven, if so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked;" (2 Corinthians 5:2-3) which means, before we put off the garment of the flesh, we wish to be clothed with the celestial glory of immortality. Now the privilege of this favour awaits those who shall at the coming of the Lord be found in the flesh, and who shall, owing to the oppressions of the time of Antichrist, deserve by an instantaneous death, which is accomplished by a sudden change, to become qualified to join the rising saints; as he writes to the Thessalonians: "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we too shall ourselves be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17)




Because in your quote death is a metaphor. How else could one be alive and dead?
what part of the sword is the church fathers? love yaza

TrustingFollower
Jan 10th 2009, 01:54 AM
Hi again TrustingFollower!

This may, or may not help us to understand.

What is the difference between a healing, and a miracle healing?

The miracle healing, is the healing with the time taken out of it. They are both healings, but one is quickened, by the Spirit. In both circumstances the askers who ask according to the promises of God, have to believe that what they ask for, they have received.

If I am correct your understanding is, by faith I will receive Salvation. My faith is I have received.
To receive resurrection life, there has first to be burial. How can we have a burial without a death. How can there be resurrection without first having death and burial?

My death, burial and resurrection is a done thing, but just like the healing the time element remains.

When a person receives healing, you will see improvements in their health over a period of time, until they are fully healed. Seeing the improvements is the (fruit) evidence of true faith that will endure to the completion.
PoC, This is good stuff, but the thing that is still missing from all this is this. Yes spiritually you have died and been resurrected, but physically you have not. That is the hope of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Without the hope what worth is our faith. Because Jesus was physically raised so shall we be, but to say so now is contrary to what is taught by God through the bible. Our faith is bases on the hope of the resurrection demonstrated by Jesus.

Romans 5

1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.
3 And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance;
4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope;
5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

Sirus
Jan 10th 2009, 03:09 AM
According to your statement it is paid twice, which is it?Yes, we die, but we already died in Christ on His cross.



I said Christ's death was not a payment to God. I never said, He didn't bear our sins.Yes, our death is payment, but we already died in Christ on His cross.



Scripture does not tell us how they will die, however the Scripture that Firstfruits posted clearly shows that they will dieIf it does it does so only through assumption.

Sirus
Jan 10th 2009, 03:17 AM
You are not facing the facts of what the bible says. This corrupted body you have now can not inherit the Kingdom of God. If your spirit is not in this body what will happen to the body you have now?

When you say you have died already then you are saying you already have your resurrection body and that my friend is simply a lie. Jesus is the only one that has the resurrection body now. When you are teaching that you physically died already then you are teaching a false gospel.Then so did Paul, who shook off a snake, shipwrecks, and beatings. There's more to me than the flesh. Me is not my flesh. My flesh is just a part of me along for the ride. It's just dust. Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

TrustingFollower
Jan 10th 2009, 03:32 AM
Then so did Paul, who shook off a snake, shipwrecks, and beatings. There's more to me than the flesh. Me is not my flesh. My flesh is just a part of me along for the ride. It's just dust. Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
So where then do you place your hope? You now have all that you will ever have if your hope is not placed in the hope of the resurrection.

Butch5
Jan 10th 2009, 03:49 PM
what part of the sword is the church fathers? love yaza

There were those who were taught by the apostles.

Do you think we just read the Bible and interpret it according to what it means to us, in present day America? Or do you think maybe we should understand it the way it was understood by those to whom it was written.

Butch5
Jan 10th 2009, 03:56 PM
Sirus---Yes, we die, but we already died in Christ on His cross.
Sorry buddy, only Christ died on that cross.



Sirus---Yes, our death is payment, but we already died in Christ on His cross.

See above. You have not yet answered the question. According to your statement the sins are paid for twice.



Sirus---If it does it does so only through assumption.

How do you come to that conclusion? flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Therefore one must die to enter. That doesn't seem like an assumption to me.

Butch5
Jan 10th 2009, 04:00 PM
Both

God will only accept a perfect sacrifice, for sin. He would not accept defect animals to cover sin. Jesus was that perfect sacrifice.

It can't be both, they are mutually exclusive, to reconcile a debt, it is either paid or forgiven.

reformedct
Jan 10th 2009, 04:24 PM
It can't be both, they are mutually exclusive, to reconcile a debt, it is either paid or forgiven.


Please help me undertand:

If Jesus did not pay our sin debt why did he have to die if God can just forgive us? Why did Jesus die?

Also, when it says He canceled our record of debt, nailing it to the cross, you must admit that the debt was owed to SOMEBODY. You cant have debt where there is no accountability. Debt is to owe. In order to owe something there must be someone you owe it to.

So who were we indebted to?

Its either Ourselves, Satan, or God. which one is it?

Also the Bible does say we died in Christ. Maybe not in the way you are thinking but to say we did not die in Christ is going directly against what Scripture clearly says over and over and over in the Epistles

Sirus
Jan 10th 2009, 05:58 PM
Do you know what faith is?

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
Rom 4:18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
Rom 4:19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about a hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:
Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.What's your point?What Abraham believed......did it literally happen? Could anyone see it? No, they could only see the fruit. BTW; it wasn't just a one time thing to have Isaac. Abraham continued ‘alive’, bearing fruit –having more children. Now, was Abraham's body dead when God gave the promise or when He, in the flesh, turned to Hagar? Nope. Yet, the promise came through a dead body, no? What'd it say

"he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were."

You call it a metaphor, I call it truth. Jesus died the death I deserve putting me in him and crucifying me with him (circumcision of Christ) so that I could have the permanent indwelling of the Spirit (operation of God). It’s not I that lives but Christ that lives in me. Is this walk of faith that scripture parallels to Abraham’s walk of faith not experiential? If Abraham only believed the promise of a child was positional he would never have had Isaac. However a change in his body occurred. According to scripture his body was dead and made alive according to Promise.

Now I know people have a problem with this. "How can it be if I am sitting here in my flesh?" So then, when temptation comes do you sin? Then you don't believe it and remain a Romans 7 man under the law of sin in your members. If you believe you are in fact dead, when temptation comes you don't sin because you are under grace (God's provision-complete work of Christ). The law of sin in your members, being dead, has no power over you.

So it's not a question of my body being here. It's just dust after all and profits nothing. The question is when did it die? Can it die twice?

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

The God that raises the dead is more than able to end the life of a mortal body and keep it alive by His indwelling Spirit. You must be born again and that requires death first.

Sirus
Jan 10th 2009, 06:00 PM
So where then do you place your hope? You now have all that you will ever have if your hope is not placed in the hope of the resurrection.Why is my hope in the resurrection? Jesus said 'I am the resurrection and the life'. Christ in you, the hope of glory. I never said I have a glorified body. Just that the body I have is dead. My hope is Christ.

Sirus
Jan 10th 2009, 06:16 PM
Sorry buddy, only Christ died on that cross.
That's not what scripture says.....
I'd encourage you to look up the phrase "in Christ" found 77 times in the NT and read them all.
Might want to read Romans 6-8 and John 12:23-26 as well.

reformedct
Jan 10th 2009, 06:22 PM
That's not what scripture says.....
I'd encourage you to look up the phrase "in Christ" found 77 times in the NT and read them all.
Might want to read Romans 6-8 and John 12:23-26 as well.


i agree. i dont see how people read the Scriptures and then say the exact opposite. Paul said we did indeed die in Christ

Butch5
Jan 10th 2009, 06:42 PM
Reformed---Please help me undertand:

If Jesus did not pay our sin debt why did he have to die if God can just forgive us? Why did Jesus die?


Scripture does not speak of a sin debt, if it is in our translation it is because the translators are injecting their theology. The Greek text does not speak of a debt. The Greek text says that Christ canceled the law which was contrary to us.

Jesus came and died as a ransom to free mankind from the bondage of sin.

Matthew 20:28 ( KJV ) 28Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.


1 Timothy 2:5-6 ( KJV ) 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Christ gave Himself a ransom for all, if Christ was the ransom, who was the kidnapper? Was it God? Did Christ come to redeem us from God? No. He came to destroy the works of the devil.

1 John 3:7-8 ( KJV ) 7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Christ came to destroy the works of the devil, the works that kept us in bondage, enslaved to sin and death.

Hebrews 2:14 ( KJV ) 14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

How did Jesus deastroy the works of the devil? It was through his death, His death on the cross. Christ's death was the ransom, that freed mankind from the kidnapper. Our redemption (we are redeemed) through Christ's blood shed on the cross, given as a ransom to set free those who who believe. How did God do this?

Colossians 1:12-14 ( KJV ) 12Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

God through what Christ has done, delivered us from the power of darkness and translated us into the kingdom of His Son. How was that done? Redemption through His blood, what is redemption through His blood? The forgiveness of sins.

Now let's look at the verses in question and see how God did this,


Colossians 2:13-15 ( KJV ) 13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Paul says the Colossians have been quickened together with Christ, and their sins have been forgiven, how did God forgive their sins? By blotting out the handwriting of ordinances (the Law) that was against them, and nailing it to the cross. Paul tells us again how Christ did this, He spoiled, (the Greek word means to strip of power) principalites and powers, triumphing over them, He triumphed over the kingdom of darkness. Mankind was kidnapped, enslaved to the power of darkness and sin, Christ gave His life as a ransom, (He died for our sins) to set free those who would believe.



Reformed---Also, when it says He canceled our record of debt, nailing it to the cross, you must admit that the debt was owed to SOMEBODY. You cant have debt where there is no accountability. Debt is to owe. In order to owe something there must be someone you owe it to.

So who were we indebted to?

Its either Ourselves, Satan, or God. which one is it?


If your translation says debt, it is a poor translation. The Greek text does not mention anything about a debt. Here is Young's literal translation, of the text in question.

Colossians 2:13-14 ( YLT ) 13And you—being dead in the trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh—He made alive together with him, having forgiven you all the trespasses, 14having blotted out the handwriting in the ordinances that is against us, that was contrary to us, and he hath taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross;



Reformed---Also the Bible does say we died in Christ. Maybe not in the way you are thinking but to say we did not die in Christ is going directly against what Scripture clearly says over and over and over in the Epistles

Reformed, please read my posts exactly as I write them, I did not say we didn't die in Christ. I said Christ was the only one who died on the cross.

Sirus
Jan 10th 2009, 06:43 PM
i agree. i dont see how people read the Scriptures and then say the exact opposite. Paul said we did indeed die in ChristYes, and Peter said a lot of what Paul wrote was hard to understand.

Butch5
Jan 10th 2009, 06:48 PM
What Abraham believed......did it literally happen? Could anyone see it? No, they could only see the fruit. BTW; it wasn't just a one time thing to have Isaac. Abraham continued ‘alive’, bearing fruit –having more children. Now, was Abraham's body dead when God gave the promise or when He, in the flesh, turned to Hagar? Nope. Yet, the promise came through a dead body, no? What'd it say

"he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were."

You call it a metaphor, I call it truth. Jesus died the death I deserve putting me in him and crucifying me with him (circumcision of Christ) so that I could have the permanent indwelling of the Spirit (operation of God). It’s not I that lives but Christ that lives in me. Is this walk of faith that scripture parallels to Abraham’s walk of faith not experiential? If Abraham only believed the promise of a child was positional he would never have had Isaac. However a change in his body occurred. According to scripture his body was dead and made alive according to Promise.

Now I know people have a problem with this. "How can it be if I am sitting here in my flesh?" So then, when temptation comes do you sin? Then you don't believe it and remain a Romans 7 man under the law of sin in your members. If you believe you are in fact dead, when temptation comes you don't sin because you are under grace (God's provision-complete work of Christ). The law of sin in your members, being dead, has no power over you.

So it's not a question of my body being here. It's just dust after all and profits nothing. The question is when did it die? Can it die twice?

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

The God that raises the dead is more than able to end the life of a mortal body and keep it alive by His indwelling Spirit. You must be born again and that requires death first.



What does this have to do with the verse we we discussing?

Butch5
Jan 10th 2009, 06:50 PM
That's not what scripture says.....
I'd encourage you to look up the phrase "in Christ" found 77 times in the NT and read them all.
Might want to read Romans 6-8 and John 12:23-26 as well.


Sirus---Yes, we die, but we already died in Christ on His cross.

No need, you weren't alive when Christ was, therefore, there is no way you could have died with Him on the cross.

Butch5
Jan 10th 2009, 06:51 PM
i agree. i dont see how people read the Scriptures and then say the exact opposite. Paul said we did indeed die in Christ

To die in Christ is very different than to die with Christ.

reformedct
Jan 10th 2009, 07:22 PM
To die in Christ is very different than to die with Christ.


Romans 6

4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self [1] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Romans+6#f1) was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free [2] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Romans+6#f2) from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him

hmmmmm.. seems like we did indeed die WITH him according to scripture?

I think i will be in accord with scripture and affirm that we died in and with Christ. If you would like to stand against what the Bible says you are free to do so

MacGyver
Jan 10th 2009, 07:29 PM
paul said christ sent him to preach the gospel not baptize. believing in the gospel,is all you need if the spirit leads you to baptisism {like he did in my case} thats great, the sins you refer to have been put behind the back of the father. remember; who could stand if he should count our sins? THE ANSWER IS NO ONE GOD WAS IN CHRIST RECONCILING THE THE WHOLE WORLD TO HIMSELF,NOT COUNTING MENS SINS AGAINST THEM. we are not saved by christs death we are saved by his life if you are dead all you need is life he did it for jesus he promises he will do it for us. god bless1 Cor. 1:17 is not down-playing the value of Baptism as you are indicating, but Christ sent the apostles to do both, but in such a way that they preached in person, as they said in Ac (6:2): “It is not right that we should give up preaching the word of God to serve tables.” But they baptized through their ministers, and they did this because the diligence or virtue of the baptizer contributes nothing in baptism, for it is indifferent whether baptism be given by a greater or lesser personage. But in the preaching of the gospel the wisdom and virtue of the preacher contributes a great deal; consequently, the apostles, being better qualified, exercised the office of preaching in person. In the same way it is said of Christ (Jn. 4:2) that He Himself did not baptize but His disciples did; of Him it says in Lk (4:43): “I must preach the good news of the kingdom of God to the other cities also, for I was sent for the purpose,” and in Is (61:1): “The Lord has anointed me to bring good tidings to the afflicted.”

We keep going around and around in circles:spin:

MacGyver
Jan 10th 2009, 07:43 PM
Sirus,

Forgive me for being to lazy to read all the posts to find out for myself, but are you denying that there is a future resurrection? From what little bit I have read it seems as if you are implying that we have already died and rose from the dead and there is no other death and resurrection to come. Correct me if I am wrong.

Butch5
Jan 10th 2009, 08:13 PM
Romans 6

4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self [1] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Romans+6#f1) was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free [2] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Romans+6#f2) from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him

hmmmmm.. seems like we did indeed die WITH him according to scripture?

I think i will be in accord with scripture and affirm that we died in and with Christ. If you would like to stand against what the Bible says you are free to do so

I was referring to being literally on the cross with Christ, surly you understand the difference?

I don't think that your body was literally buried in the tomb with Christ. Especially since you are alive.

MacGyver
Jan 10th 2009, 08:24 PM
I was referring to being literally on the cross with Christ, surly you understand the difference?

I don't think that your body was literally buried in the tomb with Christ. Especially since you are alive.
I must say that I am puzzled with some of those posts that seem to indicate that, as if there is no distinction being made between the spiritual and the future death and resurrection. :confused

yaza
Jan 10th 2009, 08:43 PM
There were those who were taught by the apostles.

Do you think we just read the Bible and interpret it according to what it means to us, in present day America? Or do you think maybe we should understand it the way it was understood by those to whom it was written.
i think we read the bible and depend on the holy spirit to tell us what it means not the church fathers. any doctrine must be supported by the bible in more than just one verse or chapter,and it must be in the old test. and the forgiveness of sin without the shedding of blood is not in there as some on this thread suggest. christ offered his blood one time and one time only. so to say that we can achieve forgiveness for the sins we commit after we are saved, is not possible. thats why christ took away the sin of the world, so we are no longer judged on our sin, rather we are judged on our belief in christ and thats all, nothing more nothing less. love yaza

Butch5
Jan 10th 2009, 10:22 PM
i think we read the bible and depend on the holy spirit to tell us what it means not the church fathers. any doctrine must be supported by the bible in more than just one verse or chapter,and it must be in the old test. and the forgiveness of sin without the shedding of blood is not in there as some on this thread suggest. christ offered his blood one time and one time only. so to say that we can achieve forgiveness for the sins we commit after we are saved, is not possible. thats why christ took away the sin of the world, so we are no longer judged on our sin, rather we are judged on our belief in christ and thats all, nothing more nothing less. love yaza

Many believe as you do. Letmeask you this, have you ever changed your position on a given doctrine?

As for the Ante-Nicene fathers, do you know more than them? Were you there? They were. Do you speak Kione Greek?They did. Do you live I'm that region? They did. Do you live in that culture? They did. Were you taught by the apostles? Some of them were. Do I need to continue?

Butch5
Jan 10th 2009, 10:25 PM
I must say that I am puzzled with some of those posts that seem to indicate that, as if there is no distinction being made between the spiritual and the future death and resurrection. :confused

I believe it is because there is so much confusion being taught in the church.

TrustingFollower
Jan 10th 2009, 11:01 PM
Romans 6

4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self [1] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Romans+6#f1) was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free [2] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Romans+6#f2) from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him

hmmmmm.. seems like we did indeed die WITH him according to scripture?

I think i will be in accord with scripture and affirm that we died in and with Christ. If you would like to stand against what the Bible says you are free to do so
Key part of what Paul is teaching is a little further along in the chapter.

Romans 6

11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

This is showing that we have to take it as faith not in a literal sense. This is the same thing Paul said in chapter 5 on how we are justified.

Romans 5

1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Paul never taught about literally dieing, but only by faith. Peter taught the same thing that we have all by faith now, but will all be fulfilled in the day of the Lord when we are completed at the resurrection.