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Gulah Papyrus
Jan 5th 2009, 11:08 PM
Last night I was listening to a lecture on Psalm 19 and how the Gospel may very well have been written in the stars at the time of creation. Very interesting stuff...what do you all know about this?


Here is a site I found that seems to best go along with the lecture I heard.

http://www.yarahministries.org/heaven.html

...and here is the lecture by Steve Gregg...

http://www.digitalministries.us/steve_gregg/mp3/verse/psalms/05_psalms.mp3

:hmm::hmm::hmm:

markedward
Jan 6th 2009, 12:21 AM
It starts playing gematria with certain verses.

Gulah Papyrus
Jan 6th 2009, 01:50 AM
It starts playing gematria with certain verses.
So you don't think there is anything to it?

Libre
Jan 6th 2009, 02:15 AM
Nice topic. I have personally read three books on this, and own one. Bullinger is available online. I own Seiss. And the third is from a surprising auther, the late James Kennedy.

I do believe there is enough evidence to consider the gospel in the stars to be credible. And as one who was reading astrology books when Jesus saved me, I found the new look at this to be incredible freeing and redemptive. Now, when someone asks about my sign, I can say, Capricorn, the dying yet living savior. That is, I can if I've brushed up on it. Just had to look it up, lol.

Before reading about this theory, I just managed a lame "The sign of the cross - Jesus" and added that astrology was evil. But when I say that the signs were put there by God and taught to Adam, and corrupted over eons, I get more interest in the gospel.

markedward
Jan 6th 2009, 02:35 AM
So you don't think there is anything to it?It makes me suspicious, at least.

Not to mention that it uses a ton of convoluted "Bible code" nonsense... just because a "pattern" can be found in (i.e., forced into) Scripture doesn't mean God put it there. For every "Bible code" that people claim is in the Old Testament that says Jesus is the Messiah, there's just as easily found to be another "Bible code" that says Jesus isn't the Messiah.

moonglow
Jan 6th 2009, 04:04 AM
Last night I was listening to a lecture on Psalm 19 and how the Gospel may very well have been written in the stars at the time of creation. Very interesting stuff...what do you all know about this?


Here is a site I found that seems to best go along with the lecture I heard.

http://www.yarahministries.org/heaven.html

...and here is the lecture by Steve Gregg...

http://www.digitalministries.us/steve_gregg/mp3/verse/psalms/05_psalms.mp3

:hmm::hmm::hmm:

I am really tired right now..about my bedtime so I can't focus on reading this right now...but yes I do believe the gospels were written in the stars...

I did a thread about the Star of Bethlehem website and their DVD here: http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=151742

That would probably interest you alot. Its not just about the star leading the wise men, but also what was happening in the sky (well space) when Jesus died on the cross and scripture does back this up.

Yes its true that people have taken God given signs to us and twisted it as satan always does with the truth, and made it corrupt by turning it into astrology which the bible speaks against. astrology is vastly different from astromony though. Reading stars for OUR foture is forbidden in the bible...read God's message to us about His Son, is not and is in scripture. The website I posted on my thread also explains the difference. I think we miss out on alot of 'signs' in the sky because we are afraid to study them anymore due to the corruption that others placed on them. In other words...are you viewing these signs through scripture or viewing them through some weird fortune telling idea people came up with? (not saying personally you, Gulah Papyrus) but saying to people in general this is how we can tell the difference.

There was a well known pastor in the Christian radio station I listened too that spoke about the gospels being written in the sky too and even though he used scriptures...backed everything up with scriptures, many others attacked him for it. :( It got kind of messy for awhile and I thought sad too. Do we flee so far from things due to satan that we miss seeing God's work? Not even look at the stars and planets out of fear we might be sinning?

As with everything else in the bible there has to be a balance.

Anyway I hope your post is still here in the morning so I can read that link. Thanks for posting it. :)

God bless

Libre
Jan 6th 2009, 04:36 AM
I did not listen to the link. So I did not notice the objection about Bible codes. I concur about the codes. Nonsense. But Moonglow has said it well, nonsense aside.

kenrank
Jan 6th 2009, 05:47 AM
I kind of see this in the same way many truths get hijacked by the adversary. I read a book somewhere in the past that took the position that the whole plan from start to finish was written in the stars. I don't remember what each constellation meant, but the ending was scorpio, and on it's heals sagitarius (though each had different names of course) and God's wrath being poured onto the scorpions tail.

I find it all interesting, but it should be taken as nothing more than a topic of interest and nothing more. First, it would be extra biblical. And seeing there is enough deceit in this world today, we need to keep in the Word and not rely on extra biblical stuff to guide us. Plus, there is nothing in scripture that says to look to the stars for anything other than as a guide for the seasons.

Peace.
Ken

Gulah Papyrus
Jan 6th 2009, 09:53 AM
I am really tired right now..about my bedtime so I can't focus on reading this right now...but yes I do believe the gospels were written in the stars...

I did a thread about the Star of Bethlehem website and their DVD here: http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=151742

That would probably interest you alot. Its not just about the star leading the wise men, but also what was happening in the sky (well space) when Jesus died on the cross and scripture does back this up.

Yes its true that people have taken God given signs to us and twisted it as satan always does with the truth, and made it corrupt by turning it into astrology which the bible speaks against. astrology is vastly different from astromony though. Reading stars for OUR foture is forbidden in the bible...read God's message to us about His Son, is not and is in scripture. The website I posted on my thread also explains the difference. I think we miss out on alot of 'signs' in the sky because we are afraid to study them anymore due to the corruption that others placed on them. In other words...are you viewing these signs through scripture or viewing them through some weird fortune telling idea people came up with? (not saying personally you, Gulah Papyrus) but saying to people in general this is how we can tell the difference.

There was a well known pastor in the Christian radio station I listened too that spoke about the gospels being written in the sky too and even though he used scriptures...backed everything up with scriptures, many others attacked him for it. :( It got kind of messy for awhile and I thought sad too. Do we flee so far from things due to satan that we miss seeing God's work? Not even look at the stars and planets out of fear we might be sinning?

As with everything else in the bible there has to be a balance.

Anyway I hope your post is still here in the morning so I can read that link. Thanks for posting it. :)

God bless
Hi Moonglow, I agree with everything you said, and as Markedward pointed out, the 'code' stuff does invites skepticism, but I cannot help but be fascinated, though not surprised, with the idea that God wrote the Gospel story in the stars. Isn't that so like him? :yes:

Just so you know, the text link that I posted, I posted for the scripture references, not the code. If you have time to listen to the audio link(55+ minutes) I think you would really enjoy it.

Gulah Papyrus
Jan 6th 2009, 09:56 AM
I kind of see this in the same way many truths get hijacked by the adversary. I read a book somewhere in the past that took the position that the whole plan from start to finish was written in the stars. I don't remember what each constellation meant, but the ending was scorpio, and on it's heals sagitarius (though each had different names of course) and God's wrath being poured onto the scorpions tail.

I find it all interesting, but it should be taken as nothing more than a topic of interest and nothing more. First, it would be extra biblical. And seeing there is enough deceit in this world today, we need to keep in the Word and not rely on extra biblical stuff to guide us. Plus, there is nothing in scripture that says to look to the stars for anything other than as a guide for the seasons.

Peace.
Ken
What does the term 'extra biblical' mean?

shepherdsword
Jan 6th 2009, 10:28 AM
Last night I was listening to a lecture on Psalm 19 and how the Gospel may very well have been written in the stars at the time of creation. Very interesting stuff...what do you all know about this?


Here is a site I found that seems to best go along with the lecture I heard.

http://www.yarahministries.org/heaven.html

...and here is the lecture by Steve Gregg...

http://www.digitalministries.us/steve_gregg/mp3/verse/psalms/05_psalms.mp3




Dr D. James Kennedy wrote a book called "The real meaning of the Zodiac" about 25 years ago that explains it without the kabbalahic numerology. They probably got alot of that stuff from him.


I am really tired right now..about my bedtime so I can't focus on reading this right now...but yes I do believe the gospels were written in the stars...

I did a thread about the Star of Bethlehem website and their DVD here: http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=151742

That would probably interest you alot. Its not just about the star leading the wise men, but also what was happening in the sky (well space) when Jesus died on the cross and scripture does back this up.



God bless

I liked the Star of Bethlehem site as well. The only issue I have with it is that the author doesn't understand that Jesus couldn't have been crucified on a friday like he claims. This would not have allowed for the sign of Jonah(three days AND three nights) to be fulfilled. Jesus was crucified on a Wednesday just before a special sabbath on one of the Jewish high holy days and NOT the regular Saturday sabbath This would have allowed the three full days to take place. However, I love the site as far as the star of Bethlehem itself went

moonglow
Jan 6th 2009, 03:08 PM
I kind of see this in the same way many truths get hijacked by the adversary. I read a book somewhere in the past that took the position that the whole plan from start to finish was written in the stars. I don't remember what each constellation meant, but the ending was scorpio, and on it's heals sagitarius (though each had different names of course) and God's wrath being poured onto the scorpions tail.

I find it all interesting, but it should be taken as nothing more than a topic of interest and nothing more. First, it would be extra biblical. And seeing there is enough deceit in this world today, we need to keep in the Word and not rely on extra biblical stuff to guide us. Plus, there is nothing in scripture that says to look to the stars for anything other than as a guide for the seasons.

Peace.
Ken

Well actually there is...we see numerous verses saying their will be signs in the heavens...

Matthew 24

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Many take this literally...that these heavenly signs will actually happen. Some of us don't as references to the sun, moon, etc can stay for nations, kings, etc as we see for example with Joseph who had a dream of the sun, moon and stars bowing before him...

Genesis 37:8-10
9 Soon Joseph had another dream, and again he told his brothers about it. “Listen, I have had another dream,” he said. “The sun, moon, and eleven stars bowed low before me!”

10 This time he told the dream to his father as well as to his brothers, but his father scolded him. “What kind of dream is that?” he asked. “Will your mother and I and your brothers actually come and bow to the ground before you?”

...in that it meant his family and especially brothers and a whole nation as he ended up being the right hand man of Pharaoh of Egypt. Even Jacob, Joseph father knew these heavenly signs were not literally in this case. It can be difficult figuring out what is to be taken literally as 'signs in heaven' and what isn't but as we see here...some of this was literal:


The FIFTH sign, fearful portents.
(http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=mt&chapter=024)
To these St. Luke adds that there shall be fearful sights and great signs from heaven 21:11.) Josephus, in his preface to the Jewish war, enumerates these. 1st. A star hung over the city like a sword; and a comet continued a whole year. 2d. The people being assembled at the feast of unleavened bread, at the ninth hour of the night, a great light shone about the altar and the temple, and this continued for half an hour. 3d. At the same feast, a cow led to sacrifice brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple! 4th. The eastern gate of the temple, which was of solid brass, and very heavy, and could hardly be shut by twenty men, and was fastened by strong bars and bolts, was seen at the sixth hour of the night to open of its own accord! 5th. Before sun-setting there were seen, over all the country, chariots and armies fighting in the clouds, and besieging cities. 6th. At the feast of pentecost, when the priests were going into the inner temple by night, to attend their service, they heard first a motion and noise, and then a voice, as of a multitude, saying, LET US DEPART HENCE! 7th.

What Josephus reckons one of the most terrible signs of all was, that one Jesus, a country fellow, four years before the war began, and when the city was in peace and plenty, came to the feast of tabernacles, and ran crying up and down the streets, day and night: "A voice from the east! a voice from the west! a voice from the four winds! a voice against Jerusalem and the temple! a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides! and a voice against all the people!" Though the magistrates endeavoured by stripes and tortures to restrain him, yet he still cried, with a mournful voice, "Wo, wo to Jerusalem!" And this he continued to do for several years together, going about the walls and crying with a loud voice: "Wo, wo to the city, and to the people, and to the temple!" and as he added, "Wo, wo to myself!" a stone from some sling or engine struck him dead on the spot! It is worthy of remark that Josephus appeals to the testimony of others, who saw and heard these fearful things. Tacitus, a Roman historian, gives very nearly the same account with that of Josephus. Hist. lib. v.
****************************

But then in this account:

The Death of Jesus
44 By this time it was noon, and darkness fell across the whole land until three o’clock. 45 The light from the sun was gone. And suddenly, the curtain in the sanctuary of the Temple was torn down the middle. 46 Then Jesus shouted, “Father, I entrust my spirit into your hands!”[h] And with those words he breathed his last.

http://www.bethlehemstar.net/day/day.htm
Peter's Argument

We now leap beyond the crucifixion to add a last piece of evidence about the day of the cross. The Bible reports that the resurrected Messiah instructed his disciples not to leave Jerusalem until they received power from the Holy Spirit. They may have been confused, wondering if Jesus was talking about something political (27). But stay they did.

They were still there for the Jewish celebration of Pentecost, 50 days after the Passover Feast and the crucifixion. Jerusalem was full of worshipers from all over the Near East. The Bible reports sudden startling events during this celebration: the sound of a great rushing wind, something like flames hovering about the disciples. Just as strange, the disciples began to speak, but not in their native Aramaic or Hebrew. They spoke in languages they had not learned. They were understood by countless foreign visitors to the city (28).

There was pandemonium. A boisterous crowd jostled closer. Travelers heard their own languages spoken by Galileans and were bewildered. Hecklers shouted: "They're all drunk!" The apostle Peter jumped up amid the confusion. We can imagine his hand outstretched to still the crowd. He then boomed out his explanation of what was happening. Listen and consider as Peter argues from the words of the prophet Joel recorded circa 835 BC. From the Book of Acts, Chapter 2:

"14 Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: "Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15 These men are not drunk, as you suppose. It's only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17 "`In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. 18 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy. 19 I will show wonders in the heaven above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke. 20 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord. 21 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.'"

Then Peter delivered the knockout punch. The Book of Acts, Chapter 2:

22 "Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know."

Peter asserts that Joel's prophesy has been fulfilled and that his listeners know it—that they have seen the signs themselves. This is the same argument the apostle Paul made, as discussed in "Setting the Stage" on this web site. This argument would have had exactly no persuasive force unless Paul's and Peter's audiences knew that signs had occurred. Both men assumed that everybody knew about the signs. That's powerful evidence that they had occurred. Of particular interest for us: Joel said there would be astronomical signs. And now Peter says, "you've seen them." What were they?

"The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood..." The gospels do recount that the sun was darkened on the day of the crucifixion from noon until 3 in the afternoon (29). Ancient non-Biblical sources confirm this. Phlegon Trallianus records in his history, Olympiades (41):

"In the fourth year of the 202nd Olympiad [AD 32-33], a failure of the Sun took place greater than any previously known, and night came on at the sixth hour of the day [noon], so that stars actually appeared in the sky; and a great earthquake took place in Bithynia and overthrew the greater part of Niceaea," obviously not a simple astronomical event. (42)

But what about the bloody moon?

The answer to that question fixes the date of the crucifixion with precision. Beyond reasonable doubt, in fact, because a "blood moon" has a specific meaning. In ancient literature, not only the Bible, it means a lunar eclipse. Why bloody? Because when the moon is in eclipse it is in the Earth's shadow. It receives no direct light from the sun, but is lit only by the dim light refracted and red-shifted by the Earth's atmosphere. The moon in eclipse does glow a dull red, as you know if you have seen it.

This matters, because with Kepler's equations we can determine exactly when historical eclipses occurred. Perhaps it will not surprise you to learn that only one Passover lunar eclipse was visible from Jerusalem while Pilate was in office (30). It occurred on April 3, 33 AD, the Day of the Cross.
******************
sorry this is such a long post ..:rolleyes:

God bless

moonglow
Jan 6th 2009, 03:14 PM
What does the term 'extra biblical' mean?

It means not bibical..not found in scriptures...though I don't think it is extra biblical as we have this verse:

Psalm 19
To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David.
1 The heavens declare the glory of God;
And the firmament shows His handiwork.
2 Day unto day utters speech,
And night unto night reveals knowledge.
3 There is no speech nor language
Where their voice is not heard.
4 Their line[a] has gone out through all the earth,
And their words to the end of the world.

http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=ps&chapter=019
St. Paul applies this as a prophecy relative to the universal spread of the Gospel of Christ, Romans 10:18; for God designed that the light of the Gospel should be diffused wheresoever the light of the celestial luminaries shone; and be as useful and beneficent, in a moral point of view, as that is in a natural. All the inhabitants of the earth shall benefit by the Gospel of Christ, as they all benefit by the solar, lunar, and stellar light. And, indeed, all have thus benefited, even where the words are not yet come. "Jesus is the true Light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world." His light, and the voice of his Spirit, have already gone through the earth; and his words, and the words of his apostles, are by means of the Bible and missionaries going out to all the extremities of the habitable globe.
****************************
God bless

Bethany67
Jan 6th 2009, 03:21 PM
What Josephus reckons one of the most terrible signs of all was, that one Jesus, a country fellow, four years before the war began, and when the city was in peace and plenty, came to the feast of tabernacles, and ran crying up and down the streets, day and night: "A voice from the east! a voice from the west! a voice from the four winds! a voice against Jerusalem and the temple! a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides! and a voice against all the people!" Though the magistrates endeavoured by stripes and tortures to restrain him, yet he still cried, with a mournful voice, "Wo, wo to Jerusalem!" And this he continued to do for several years together, going about the walls and crying with a loud voice: "Wo, wo to the city, and to the people, and to the temple!" and as he added, "Wo, wo to myself!" a stone from some sling or engine struck him dead on the spot! It is worthy of remark that Josephus appeals to the testimony of others, who saw and heard these fearful things. Tacitus, a Roman historian, gives very nearly the same account with that of Josephus. Hist. lib. v.

Is this a quote from Josephus? I'm not familiar with the passage - I think Josephus only mentions Jesus twice. Once is the Testimonium Flavianum (believed to be a later insertion by a Christian), and the other mentions Him as the brother of James. Curious as to where the above has come from? I know it's in Adam Clarke's Commentary, but where did he get it from? Furthermore, Tacitus has no similar passage - his mention of Nero and the Christians doesn't even come close to the above.

moonglow
Jan 6th 2009, 03:48 PM
Is this a quote from Josephus? I'm not familiar with the passage - I think Josephus only mentions Jesus twice. Once is the Testimonium Flavianum (believed to be a later insertion by a Christian), and the other mentions Him as the brother of James. Curious as to where the above has come from? I know it's in Adam Clarke's Commentary, but where did he get it from? Furthermore, Tacitus has no similar passage - his mention of Nero and the Christians doesn't even come close to the above.

No, no...this isn't about Jesus our Savior he is talking about but another man named Jesus. The name Jesus, was apparently fairly common...kind of like the name Mary, back then. Tacitus too, isn't talking about Jesus our Savior, but about this fellow that went around shouting this message of doom. (edited to add) What Adam Clark is explaining is the events that actually happened...the destruction of Jerusalem long after Jesus had ascended back to Heaven. He gives the historical accounts from Josephus, to show how this prophesies Jesus gave, were full filled. Sorry for the confusion!

I don't know if this is an exact quote from Josephus' War of the Jews...sounds more like paraphrasing.

you might find this link interesting: Regarding the quotes from the historian
Josephus about Jesus (http://www.carm.org/questions/Josephus_Jesus.htm)

I don't want to side track the thread too much on that...just thought it might interest you though.

Adam Clark does use quite a bit of Josephus' War of the Jews accounts all through his commentary on Matthew 24.

God bless

Teke
Jan 6th 2009, 03:57 PM
Last night I was listening to a lecture on Psalm 19 and how the Gospel may very well have been written in the stars at the time of creation. Very interesting stuff...what do you all know about this?


Here is a site I found that seems to best go along with the lecture I heard.

http://www.yarahministries.org/heaven.html

...and here is the lecture by Steve Gregg...

http://www.digitalministries.us/steve_gregg/mp3/verse/psalms/05_psalms.mp3

:hmm::hmm::hmm:

I didn't check out your links. Scripture does make reference to the stars in some places. As another poster cited, EW Bullinger, did a lengthy study on this subject with scripture.

Here (http://levendwater.org/companion/append12.html) is a short version from an appendix of the KJV Companion bible. And here (http://philologos.org/__eb-tws/) is the long version, "The Witness of the Stars".

Libre
Jan 6th 2009, 04:03 PM
Moonglow, you are a gem. Excellent information. What was your little avie thing before it was the red monster? I've not been on in a while.

Bethany67
Jan 6th 2009, 04:15 PM
Thanks for the explanation, Moonglow :)

moonglow
Jan 6th 2009, 04:20 PM
Moonglow, you are a gem. Excellent information. What was your little avie thing before it was the red monster? I've not been on in a while.

Oh I had a painting of the Christ child with some angels...but the holidays are over so I had to change it...:lol:


Bethany67 Thanks for the explanation, Moonglow

Sure and sorry about the confusion...I wasn't thinking that this might have been taken that way..

God bless

kenrank
Jan 6th 2009, 04:20 PM
What does the term 'extra biblical' mean?

It means that the story of creation through salvation being seen in the stars comes from "outside of Scripture." Faith comes by hearing, hearing by the Word of God....not the stars. While creation can and does point to the creator, believing there is a creator does not save you. Satan believes there is a creator.

What I was poorly trying to say is that we have false gospels, false Messiah's, phoney prophets, and many wolves wearing the clothing of sheep. To discern the spirits, to prove all things, we must stay within the confines of the Word of God. We can use history, early writings, the stars if you will....to help understand aspects of Scripture. But none of those should ever outweigh Scripture. Unless God himself whispers in your ear, or sends an messenger (angel) to deliver a message, Scripture should remain the final authority.

Peace.
Ken

kenrank
Jan 6th 2009, 04:30 PM
It means not bibical..not found in scriptures...though I don't think it is extra biblical as we have this verse:

Psalm 19
To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David.
1 The heavens declare the glory of God;
And the firmament shows His handiwork.
2 Day unto day utters speech,
And night unto night reveals knowledge.
3 There is no speech nor language
Where their voice is not heard.
4 Their line[a] has gone out through all the earth,
And their words to the end of the world.

God bless

Gen 1:14 And God said, "Let lights come to be in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and appointed times, and for days and years,

Signs- We see this in scripture at the birth of Messiah. Revelation, even Matthew, has "signs" in the heavens related to the end time.

Appointed times- The Feasts, the set apart days, are determined according to the moon

Day and years- obvious..I know when I can see orion in the east that winter is coming. When I can see Scorpio in the east, summer of coming.

While the heavens indeed declare the handiwork of God, I know of no scripture stating that his plan in any form was written in the stars. If there is a verse, please share it. I would be most interested.

Peace.
Ken

moonglow
Jan 6th 2009, 05:21 PM
It means that the story of creation through salvation being seen in the stars comes from "outside of Scripture." Faith comes by hearing, hearing by the Word of God....not the stars. While creation can and does point to the creator, believing there is a creator does not save you. Satan believes there is a creator.

What I was poorly trying to say is that we have false gospels, false Messiah's, phoney prophets, and many wolves wearing the clothing of sheep. To discern the spirits, to prove all things, we must stay within the confines of the Word of God. We can use history, early writings, the stars if you will....to help understand aspects of Scripture. But none of those should ever outweigh Scripture. Unless God himself whispers in your ear, or sends an messenger (angel) to deliver a message, Scripture should remain the final authority.

Peace.
Ken

The thing is though the bible isn't available to everyone in the world...due to it being illegal in many nations...or not translated in their language...plus the bible hasn't always been around..and the gospel message wasn't even given by word for others to hear, until Jesus sent out His disciples...so what about those before hand? Those living in remote areas that missionaries cannot reach to even preach the word?

Teke posted a good link above: http://levendwater.org/companion/append12.html

In the first mention of the heavenly bodies, the purpose of the Creator is clearly stated. Gen. 1:14-19 reveals the fact that they were created, not only "to divide the day from the night, and to give light upon the earth"; but, they were set "for SIGNS, and for SEASONS, and for days and years".

The figure Polysyndeton (see Ap. 6) emphasizes these four purposes, and bids us single them out and consider them separately and independently.

They are "for SIGNS'.

Heb. 'oth, from 'athah, to come. Signs, therefore, of something or some One to come. Those who understand them are enlightened by them. Those who do not may well be "dismayed" (Jer. 10:2). The stars are numbered and named. There are twelve signs of the Zodiac, called "the stars" in Gen. 37:9 (eleven of which bowed down to Joseph's, the twelfth). The word Zodiac means the degrees or steps, which mark the stages of the sun's path through the heavens, corresponding with the twelve months.

The stars were all named by God (Ps. 147:4). Most of these names have been lost; but over 100 are preserved through the Arabic and Hebrew, and are used by astronomers to-day, though their meaning is unknown to them. Many of them are used in Scripture as being well known, though the translations are somewhat speculative : e.g. Job 9:9. Heb. 'ash (Arcturus, R.V. the Bear), kesil (A.V. Orion), kimah (Pleiades). John 38:31, 32, mazzaroth (margin, Zodiac). Cp. 2Kings 23:5, 'ash (Arcturus with her sons, R.V. the Bear with her train, both versions being incorrect as to the names). See also Isa. 13:10. Amos 5:8.

These names and the twelve "signs" go back to the foundation of the world. Jewish tradition, preserved by Josephus, assures us that this Bible astronomy was invented by Adam, Seth, and Enoch.

We see evidence of it as early as Gen. 11:4, where we read of the Tower of Babel having "his top with the heavens". There is nothing about the wrongly supplied italics "may reach unto". The words, doubtless, refer to the signs of the Zodiac, pictured at the top of the Tower, like the Zodiacs in the Temples of Denderah, and Esneh in Egypt. For the meaning of the words, reference must be made to the Psalm itself. We can only note here that the first part does not refer to the wonders of creation, but to the eloquence of its teaching and revelation : they "declare", tell, or narrate (Gen. 24:66. Ps. 71:15), they "utter speech", but without words (omit "where" in v. 3); they prophesy "day by day", "night by night". The question is : What do they prophesy? What knowledge do they show forth? What glory do they tell of?

The answer is -- Gen. 3:15. The one great central truth of all prophecy -- the coming of the One, Who, though He should suffer, should in the end crush the head of the old serpent, the Devil.
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Pretty interesting read.


kenrank

Quote:
Originally Posted by moonglow
It means not bibical..not found in scriptures...though I don't think it is extra biblical as we have this verse:

Psalm 19
To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David.
1 The heavens declare the glory of God;
And the firmament shows His handiwork.
2 Day unto day utters speech,
And night unto night reveals knowledge.
3 There is no speech nor language
Where their voice is not heard.
4 Their line has gone out through all the earth,
And their words to the end of the world.


Gen 1:14 And God said, "Let lights come to be in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and appointed times, and for days and years,

Signs- We see this in scripture at the birth of Messiah. Revelation, even Matthew, has "signs" in the heavens related to the end time.

Appointed times- The Feasts, the set apart days, are determined according to the moon

Day and years- obvious..I know when I can see orion in the east that winter is coming. When I can see Scorpio in the east, summer of coming.

While the heavens indeed declare the handiwork of God, I know of no scripture stating that his plan in any form was written in the stars. If there is a verse, please share it. I would be most interested.

Peace.
Ken

You left out the rest of my post there which showed how Paul also referred back to that passage:

http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/vi...ps&chapter=019
Psalm 19
St. Paul applies this as a prophecy relative to the universal spread of the Gospel of Christ, Romans 10:18; for God designed that the light of the Gospel should be diffused wheresoever the light of the celestial luminaries shone; and be as useful and beneficent, in a moral point of view, as that is in a natural. All the inhabitants of the earth shall benefit by the Gospel of Christ, as they all benefit by the solar, lunar, and stellar light. And, indeed, all have thus benefited, even where the words are not yet come. "Jesus is the true Light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world." His light, and the voice of his Spirit, have already gone through the earth; and his words, and the words of his apostles, are by means of the Bible and missionaries going out to all the extremities of the habitable globe.

Romans 10:17
17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;
"THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH,
AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD." (Psalm 19)

Apparently Paul believed they 'heard' through the message in the stars...through 'their voice'. We tend to think that the message has to be heard through a human voice...but as I pointed out before...what if no human voice can be heard for 'faith comes by hearing'...?

Other related verses:

Colossians 1:23

23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.


Roman's 1
http://www.studylight.org/com/guz/view.cgi?book=ro&chapter=001
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

Verse 19. That which may be known of God
Dr. Taylor paraphrases this and the following verse thus: "Although the Gentiles had no written revelation, yet what may be known of God is every where manifest among them, God having made a clear discovery of himself to them. For his being and perfections, invisible to our bodily eyes, have been, ever since the creation of the world, evidently to be seen, if attentively considered, in the visible beauty, order, and operations observable in the constitution and parts of the universe; especially his eternal power and universal dominion and providence: so that they cannot plead ignorance in excuse of their idolatry and wickedness."

Verse 20. The invisible things of him
His invisible perfections are manifested by his visible works, and may be apprehended by what he has made; their immensity showing his omnipotence, their vast variety and contrivance, his omniscience; and their adaptation to the most beneficent purposes, his infinite goodness and philanthropy.
***********************************
Also you may have missed my other post here:http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1932816&postcount=12

God bless

kenrank
Jan 7th 2009, 04:18 PM
The thing is though the bible isn't available to everyone in the world...due to it being illegal in many nations...or not translated in their language...plus the bible hasn't always been around..and the gospel message wasn't even given by word for others to hear, until Jesus sent out His disciples...so what about those before hand? Those living in remote areas that missionaries cannot reach to even preach the word?

True, and it never has been. I doubt any time will come where "every" person alive will have a chance to read it. But creation itself points at a creator. Before Darwin and evolutionary science, it was a given, even by the pagans, that a god or gods had created everything. With that said, I think Paul deals with this issue in this verse:

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:


Teke posted a good link above: http://levendwater.org/companion/append12.html ... In the first mention of the heavenly bodies, the purpose of the Creator is clearly stated. Gen. 1:14-19 reveals the fact that they were created, not only "to divide the day from the night, and to give light upon the earth"; but, they were set "for SIGNS, and for SEASONS, and for days and years".

I looked at the site, it was well done. However, the word "seasons" (vs. 14) in Hebrew is moed, it is the same word used in Lev 23, there translated in the KJV as "Feasts." It means, appointed times. Lev. 23 has God's appointed days, Sabbath, Passover, Tabernacles, etc. And what you see when you read all of Lev. 23 is that, since the biblical month begins at the new moon, these appointed days are kept according to the lights in the sky. The 14th day (from the new moon) of the 1st month is Passover. This is one example of how a light in the sky created in Genesis is there to determine the appointed days.


We see evidence of it as early as Gen. 11:4, where we read of the Tower of Babel having "his top with the heavens". There is nothing about the wrongly supplied italics "may reach unto". The words, doubtless, refer to the signs of the Zodiac, pictured at the top of the Tower, like the Zodiacs in the Temples of Denderah, and Esneh in Egypt.

H8064
שׁמה שׁמים
shâmayim shâmeh
shaw-mah'-yim, shaw-meh'
The second form being dual of an unused singular; from an unused root meaning to be lofty; the sky (as aloft; the dual perhaps alluding to the visible arch in which the clouds move, as well as to the higher ether where the celestial bodies revolve): - air, X astrologer, heaven (-s).

I think the gist of the word is that the top of the tower was in the clouds, the use of "heavens" a little misleading. Somewhat like a highrise in a modern city where the top at times is not seen, lost in the clouds. Besides, we know there is not sufficient air to actually reach "space," so "lofty" or "high" or probably the best meaning.


You left out the rest of my post there which showed how Paul also referred back to that passage:

Apparently Paul believed they 'heard' through the message in the stars...through 'their voice'. We tend to think that the message has to be heard through a human voice...but as I pointed out before...what if no human voice can be heard for 'faith comes by hearing'...? God bless


I understand your point. But, the word "proclaim" means to speak. Do the stars speak today about the gospel? No, the site you cite admits the meaning of much has been lost due to time. If the stars alone could tell the story and lead us back to YHWH, what need would there have been for Yahushua (Jesus) to say anything? He simply could have come, died, raised, and left, and accomplished the same thing without a word. Yet, it is said his message was, "repent, for the Kingdom of heaven if at hand." What need to instill his Spirit into the followers to spread the good news if the stars can say it all? When you read Acts 2, you see that after the Spirit was given, and after it was decided they weren't drunk...they declared the gospel story.

I think the idea of the stars telling the story of creation through redemption has merit. I also think the true meaning of it all, at least from the star (sky) standpoint has been lost. We are left with what is written. From which, we proceed.

One thing too, just for consideration. There are two days when light is created in Genesis. The first day, which is light but no sun, moon or stars...the things that physically give us light. I believe that the light on day one was the plan (gospel) to return us to God before we even fell away from God. What an act of love and grace...to set in place a path back to God...before man even fell off the path he was on.

The you have the light on day 4. The sun, the greater light to rule the day, the moon, the lessor to rule the night, and the stars. These put in place first so we can SEE :D ..... but also for signs (again Revelation has many celestrial signs that point to certain events), for appointed times (to set a calender, to keep God's Feasts), and then of course for days and years. (Again, calender related)

Peace to you...nice discussion!!!

Ken

Libre
Jan 7th 2009, 04:33 PM
Yes, nice discussion. And my comment is that when I read about the gospel in the stars, I got an immediate witness in my own spirit that there is truth in it. For what that's worth. A lot of arguments stem from the mind not listening to what the Holy Spirit is saying.

Gulah Papyrus
Jan 7th 2009, 04:39 PM
...nice discussion!!!

Agreed! I wish I was knowledgable enough to get involved, but it's been great just following this thread. Thanks for the input!

Call to me and I will answer you, and will tell you great and hidden things that you have not known.(Jeremiah 33:3)

moonglow
Jan 7th 2009, 04:52 PM
True, and it never has been. I doubt any time will come where "every" person alive will have a chance to read it. But creation itself points at a creator. Before Darwin and evolutionary science, it was a given, even by the pagans, that a god or gods had created everything. With that said, I think Paul deals with this issue in this verse:

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:



I looked at the site, it was well done. However, the word "seasons" (vs. 14) in Hebrew is moed, it is the same word used in Lev 23, there translated in the KJV as "Feasts." It means, appointed times. Lev. 23 has God's appointed days, Sabbath, Passover, Tabernacles, etc. And what you see when you read all of Lev. 23 is that, since the biblical month begins at the new moon, these appointed days are kept according to the lights in the sky. The 14th day (from the new moon) of the 1st month is Passover. This is one example of how a light in the sky created in Genesis is there to determine the appointed days.



H8064
שׁמה שׁמים
shâmayim shâmeh
shaw-mah'-yim, shaw-meh'
The second form being dual of an unused singular; from an unused root meaning to be lofty; the sky (as aloft; the dual perhaps alluding to the visible arch in which the clouds move, as well as to the higher ether where the celestial bodies revolve): - air, X astrologer, heaven (-s).

I think the gist of the word is that the top of the tower was in the clouds, the use of "heavens" a little misleading. Somewhat like a highrise in a modern city where the top at times is not seen, lost in the clouds. Besides, we know there is not sufficient air to actually reach "space," so "lofty" or "high" or probably the best meaning.




I understand your point. But, the word "proclaim" means to speak. Do the stars speak today about the gospel? No, the site you cite admits the meaning of much has been lost due to time. If the stars alone could tell the story and lead us back to YHWH, what need would there have been for Yahushua (Jesus) to say anything? He simply could have come, died, raised, and left, and accomplished the same thing without a word. Yet, it is said his message was, "repent, for the Kingdom of heaven if at hand." What need to instill his Spirit into the followers to spread the good news if the stars can say it all? When you read Acts 2, you see that after the Spirit was given, and after it was decided they weren't drunk...they declared the gospel story.

I think the idea of the stars telling the story of creation through redemption has merit. I also think the true meaning of it all, at least from the star (sky) standpoint has been lost. We are left with what is written. From which, we proceed.

One thing too, just for consideration. There are two days when light is created in Genesis. The first day, which is light but no sun, moon or stars...the things that physically give us light. I believe that the light on day one was the plan (gospel) to return us to God before we even fell away from God. What an act of love and grace...to set in place a path back to God...before man even fell off the path he was on.

The you have the light on day 4. The sun, the greater light to rule the day, the moon, the lessor to rule the night, and the stars. These put in place first so we can SEE :D ..... but also for signs (again Revelation has many celestrial signs that point to certain events), for appointed times (to set a calender, to keep God's Feasts), and then of course for days and years. (Again, calender related)

Peace to you...nice discussion!!!

Ken

I am not feeling very well today so can't say I understood everything you said here...maybe I will later when my head isn't so foggy...:rolleyes:

I think there is still a need for the message in the stars (and as the bible says, in all of creation) because so many can still see the stars...those living in third world countries that don't have bibles or a chance to hear the word of God through another human being. They go to bed in near darkness...and can clearly see the stars. Those of us that have bibles and churches to attend also have so much light we can't see the stars! And we live in metal cities where much of creation has been crowded out. So I still think there is a great need for it...God isn't limited by us in who He reaches.

God bless

kenrank
Jan 7th 2009, 06:10 PM
Yes, nice discussion. And my comment is that when I read about the gospel in the stars, I got an immediate witness in my own spirit that there is truth in it. For what that's worth. A lot of arguments stem from the mind not listening to what the Holy Spirit is saying.

Agreed, and I am not saying the stars can't witness to us, after all, they are created by the one we serve. My only point is that whatever the true meaning behind the layout, if there is one, isn't (sadly) with us today. We have to go with what we have. (The written Word) It's funny, I see this discussion similarly to my belief that most of the NT was written in Hebrew. But, because we don't have those copies today, we have to use what we have.

Peace.
Ken

kenrank
Jan 7th 2009, 06:12 PM
I am not feeling very well today so can't say I understood everything you said here...maybe I will later when my head isn't so foggy...:rolleyes:

I think there is still a need for the message in the stars (and as the bible says, in all of creation) because so many can still see the stars...those living in third world countries that don't have bibles or a chance to hear the word of God through another human being. They go to bed in near darkness...and can clearly see the stars. Those of us that have bibles and churches to attend also have so much light we can't see the stars! And we live in metal cities where much of creation has been crowded out. So I still think there is a great need for it...God isn't limited by us in who He reaches.

God bless

Ah, read it again tomorrow. I felt like that yesterday, which is why I didn't get to your post until today. You brought up Paul, listed a bunch of verses, and my head said "nope, not now." :)

Peace and blessings.
Ken

mcgyver
Jan 7th 2009, 06:33 PM
Something that I'd like to bring up from the aspect of Cultural Anthropology if I may...and that is the tradition that was found in many cultures throughout the world of passing down the history of one's people orally.

If anyone remembers the TV series "Roots", there was a scene when Alex Hailey was sitting in an African Village, and the "singer" spent a couple of days recounting the entire history of that tribe...in actuality that is quite factual.

Many times in the oral recounting of history or legend, the stars were used as reminders...kind of a "string tied around the finger"...to bring to mind important parts of the oral tradition to the one to whom it had been entrusted.

The Polynesian peoples for example, could point out different stars and constellations and use them to recount legends/history from generation to generation, and among the different tribal groups...as well as using them for navigational purposes.

I really don't find it a stretch that the Semitic people would have used the stars to pass on the history of God's people prior to it all being written down from generation to generation.

The difference I think, would be the influence of the Holy Spirit in maintaining the integrity of the stories told...to prevent them from developing into legend...Nevertheless the stars would have been a valuable aid in not forgetting anything important. ;)

JMO

kenrank
Jan 7th 2009, 07:15 PM
Something that I'd like to bring up from the aspect of Cultural Anthropology if I may...and that is the tradition that was found in many cultures throughout the world of passing down the history of one's people orally.

If anyone remembers the TV series "Roots", there was a scene when Alex Hailey was sitting in an African Village, and the "singer" spent a couple of days recounting the entire history of that tribe...in actuality that is quite factual.

Many times in the oral recounting of history or legend, the stars were used as reminders...kind of a "string tied around the finger"...to bring to mind important parts of the oral tradition to the one to whom it had been entrusted.

The Polynesian peoples for example, could point out different stars and constellations and use them to recount legends/history from generation to generation, and among the different tribal groups...as well as using them for navigational purposes.

I really don't find it a stretch that the Semitic people would have used the stars to pass on the history of God's people prior to it all being written down from generation to generation.

The difference I think, would be the influence of the Holy Spirit in maintaining the integrity of the stories told...to prevent them from developing into legend...Nevertheless the stars would have been a valuable aid in not forgetting anything important. ;)

JMO

That was a nice post and good addition to the thread. I think that my reservations stem from knowing how many times in history that people, including God's people, have worshipped the creation. I realize that isn't where this conversation has lead, but for me personally I try to be careful not to put too much emphasis on creation for that reason.

I might start a new thread here soon about oral tradition. I recently read a book about the origins of rabbinic tradition, and the author using so much more scripture than I realized was there, really took a hammer to the notion that the Torah was orally passed down. If there was an oral history, it ended at Sinai.

Anyway, good post Mac.

Peace.
Ken

Gulah Papyrus
Jan 7th 2009, 07:53 PM
Something that I'd like to bring up from the aspect of Cultural Anthropology if I may...and that is the tradition that was found in many cultures throughout the world of passing down the history of one's people orally.

If anyone remembers the TV series "Roots", there was a scene when Alex Hailey was sitting in an African Village, and the "singer" spent a couple of days recounting the entire history of that tribe...in actuality that is quite factual.

Many times in the oral recounting of history or legend, the stars were used as reminders...kind of a "string tied around the finger"...to bring to mind important parts of the oral tradition to the one to whom it had been entrusted.

The Polynesian peoples for example, could point out different stars and constellations and use them to recount legends/history from generation to generation, and among the different tribal groups...as well as using them for navigational purposes.

I really don't find it a stretch that the Semitic people would have used the stars to pass on the history of God's people prior to it all being written down from generation to generation.

The difference I think, would be the influence of the Holy Spirit in maintaining the integrity of the stories told...to prevent them from developing into legend...Nevertheless the stars would have been a valuable aid in not forgetting anything important. ;)

JMO
One of the things pointed out in the lectutre that lead me to start this thread was the fact that every society, nomadic tribe etc that has been dicovered has known the signs of the Zodiac (Virgin, Crab, Scorpion etc.) and even though the stars don't look at all like connect-the-dot pictures of these things, the same constellations are universally known. This could lead to the conlusion that Noah had learned it through Adam(who was shown by God) and passed it on to Shem, Ham and Japheth and on down the line. This would certainly explain how different cultures that had no contact with each other or anyone else, would all come up with the same 12 signs for the same constellations.

kenrank
Jan 7th 2009, 09:38 PM
One of the things pointed out in the lectutre that lead me to start this thread was the fact that every society, nomadic tribe etc that has been dicovered has known the signs of the Zodiac (Virgin, Crab, Scorpion etc.) and even though the stars don't look at all like connect-the-dot pictures of these things, the same constellations are universally known. This could lead to the conlusion that Noah had learned it through Adam(who was shown by God) and passed it on to Shem, Ham and Japheth and on down the line. This would certainly explain how different cultures that had no contact with each other or anyone else, would all come up with the same 12 signs for the same constellations.

That is certainly a possiblity, but, it is also possible that by man's sinful nature, they looked to the stars for an answer, rather than the creator of the stars. This would account for the ridiculous amount of sun worshipping (and moon worshipping) cults that have existed through the ages. Even YHWH's own people strayed at times and fell prey to this.

Just another theory.

Peace.
Ken

Gulah Papyrus
Jan 7th 2009, 10:20 PM
That is certainly a possiblity, but, it is also possible that by man's sinful nature, they looked to the stars for an answer, rather than the creator of the stars. This would account for the ridiculous amount of sun worshipping (and moon worshipping) cults that have existed through the ages. Even YHWH's own people strayed at times and fell prey to this.

Just another theory.

Peace.
KenWe can definitely agree that Satan got his hands on it somewhere along the way...fairly early on I'm sure. I am not at all suggesting that 'we' should make a big deal out of it, but the idea that God re-tells the Gospel Story every year with the stars, and has done so annually since the beginning of time...well, that's pretty sweet. :yes:

kenrank
Jan 7th 2009, 10:24 PM
We can definitely agree that Satan got his hands on it somewhere along the way...fairly early on I'm sure. I am not at all suggesting that 'we' should make a big deal out of it, but the idea that God re-tells the Gospel Story every year with the stars, and has done so annually since the beginning of time...well, that's pretty sweet. :yes:

And to that my friend, I am in agreement! He did create them, his glory seen throughout all his creation. Using them to tell a story seems fitting.

Peace.
Ken