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Diolectic
Jan 6th 2009, 02:59 AM
In the beginning, after Adam sinned, God thought to Himself:
"For this reason (Adam's sin) I will give the rest of mankind a nature that causes them to do that which I hate."
"This nature which I give them will make it impossible for mankind to obey my commands, but I will condemn them anyway."
"They will be condemned for that which is inevitable (sin)"

Concerning that which HE reviels Himself in His Scriptures:*
God will do things that would be deemed as sadistically tyranical in human terms, but just because He is God, He is be justified in doing such things."

"If any happen to question Him (God) about these injustices, 'You will say then unto (Him), Why does he yet find fault? For who has resisted his will?
Nay but, O man, who are you that replies against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why have you made me thus?" (Rom 9:19-20)*


*mis-interpreting the Scriptures

Butch5
Jan 6th 2009, 03:26 AM
In the beginning, after Adam sinned, God thought to Himself:
"For this reason (Adam's sin) I will give the rest of mankind a nature that causes them to do that which I hate."
"This nature which I give them will make it impossible for mankind to obey my commands, but I will condemn them anyway."
"They will be condemned for that which is inevitable (sin)"

Concerning that which HE reviels Himself in His Scriptures:*
God will do things that would be deemed as sadistically tyranical in human terms, but just because He is God, He is be justified in doing such things."

"If any happen to question Him (God) about these injustices, 'You will say then unto (Him), Why does he yet find fault? For who has resisted his will?
Nay but, O man, who are you that replies against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why have you made me thus?" (Rom 9:19-20)*


*mis-interpreting the Scriptures

Well said! Great post!

markdrums
Jan 6th 2009, 03:42 AM
In the beginning, after Adam sinned, God thought to Himself:
"For this reason (Adam's sin) I will give the rest of mankind a nature that causes them to do that which I hate."
"This nature which I give them will make it impossible for mankind to obey my commands, but I will condemn them anyway."
"They will be condemned for that which is inevitable (sin)"

Concerning that which HE reviels Himself in His Scriptures:*
God will do things that would be deemed as sadistically tyranical in human terms, but just because He is God, He is be justified in doing such things."

"If any happen to question Him (God) about these injustices, 'You will say then unto (Him), Why does he yet find fault? For who has resisted his will?
Nay but, O man, who are you that replies against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why have you made me thus?" (Rom 9:19-20)*


*mis-interpreting the Scriptures

That sounds exactly like a discussion I had within the past month or so! We must somehow be connected in the same group of people...??
LOL!

Actually, it's true though..... that particular view is more common than some people might realize.

Good point to bring up!!
:)

Sirus
Jan 6th 2009, 03:50 AM
Some peoples beliefs....
are just down right .....
oh, wait....

ok, I read the OP now....

:agree:

Yukerboy
Jan 6th 2009, 11:31 AM
God did command the Israelites to kill women, children, infants and the like.

What do you call driving a sword into the chest of two year old children? I call it murder.

Now, what this shows is that those who are elected are Spirit led. When one is led by the Spirit, whatever they do is permissible, even if it looks to another to be sin.

While they were permitted to and even directed to murder children, God is not the author of sin.

We as Bible believing Christians must admit that God has a role in bringing evil about and that in doing so he is holy and blameless. God does bring sins about, but always for his own good purposes. So in bringing sin to pass he does not himself commit sin.

As Paul said, God made the law so that trespasses would increase.

God knew what Satan would do....and created him anyway.

God knew what vessels of dishounor would do.

God knew what Adam would choose.

God permitted Satan to kill Job's family.

God appointed Hitler to be the leader of Germany.

All of these are for God's good purposes to be fulfilled.

Joe King
Jan 6th 2009, 01:12 PM
If God didn't create good and evil, there wouldn't be much of a choice.

Gregg
Jan 6th 2009, 01:34 PM
If God didn't create good and evil, there wouldn't be much of a choice.

Darkness is the absence of light. Sin is the absence of God. When we choose to keep God out, sin is the result.

Yukerboy
Jan 6th 2009, 01:35 PM
Darkness is the absence of light. Sin is the absence of God. When we choose to keep God out, sin is the result.

Nice saying. Not Scriptural, but nice nonetheless.

mikebr
Jan 6th 2009, 01:50 PM
Grace it the greatest "humblizer" in all creation. Without the capacity to sin we could never understand grace. Without being unconditionally forgiven we would think we had something to do with it. I used to be humbled by my sin. Now I'm more humbled by the fact that He has forgiven my sin.

I quess what I am saying is that he gave us the capacity to sin so we would have the capacity to recieve grace.

Gregg
Jan 6th 2009, 01:52 PM
Nice saying. Not Scriptural, but nice nonetheless.

Thank you....um darkness is really the absense of light it is not just a saying. As far as scriptures go, can sin stand in Heaven in front of God? Is that not why we need to be cleaned by the blood of Christ?

mikebr
Jan 6th 2009, 01:56 PM
Thank you....um darkness is really the absense of light it is not just a saying. As far as scriptures go, can sin stand in Heaven in front of God? Is that not why we need to be cleaned by the blood of Christ?

Didn't Satan walk into the throne room in Job or am I missing something?

Yukerboy
Jan 6th 2009, 02:00 PM
Thank you....um darkness is really the absense of light it is not just a saying. As far as scriptures go, can sin stand in Heaven in front of God? Is that not why we need to be cleaned by the blood of Christ?

I would agree with everything you said here.

There is no darkness in light.

No sin can stand in heaven in front of God. (But then, didn't Satan in Job?)

Man needs to be cleansed by the blood of Christ.

Gregg
Jan 6th 2009, 02:01 PM
Grace it the greatest "humblizer" in all creation. Without the capacity to sin we could never understand grace. Without being unconditionally forgiven we would think we had something to do with it. I used to be humbled by my sin. Now I'm more humbled by the fact that He has forgiven my sin.

I quess what I am saying is that he gave us the capacity to sin so we would have the capacity to recieve grace.

Yes, free will is the only thing that is mine. What can I give to the Lord to show him my gratitude? All of my posessions are on loan from him who created them. Even my body. But he did give me free will. I may sometimes think that I am not worth all that much, but he has deemed me as precious. I really want to give him something and the only thing I own is my free will, I am humbled when I realize that he is happy with this lowly gift.

Gregg
Jan 6th 2009, 02:14 PM
Didn't Satan walk into the throne room in Job or am I missing something?

Oh, Job is one of those things that I have to leave up to God and just try to get as much out of it as possilble. God even having a discussion with satan, wagering with him, God letting satan take his children. Giving him new ones does not seem like it is something that would take the sting out of losing the old ones, etc. is hard to understand at times.Yet Job, being so obedient to God would have gladly given up everything just to be an example of sin (satan) getting on a righteous man, if he new God wanted to use him for the Book. Many have turned to Job in hard times, I am glad he is in the Book.

Yukerboy
Jan 6th 2009, 02:22 PM
But he did give me free will.

Another saying that is nice, but also Unscriptural.


Giving him new ones does not seem like it is something that would take the sting out of losing the old ones, etc. is hard to understand at times.

Now that I agree with.

God has a role in bringing evil about and that in doing so he is holy and blameless. God does bring sins about, but always for his own good purposes. Sometimes we don't understand the reasoning behind God doing so, but we must know and take by faith that what God has decided to have transpire will work towards his own good purposes.

Gregg
Jan 6th 2009, 02:39 PM
Another saying that is nice, but also Unscriptural.



Now that I agree with.

God has a role in bringing evil about and that in doing so he is holy and blameless. God does bring sins about, but always for his own good purposes. Sometimes we don't understand the reasoning behind God doing so, but we must know and take by faith that what God has decided to have transpire will work towards his own good purposes.

Just because there is not a verse assigned to something does not mean it is not scriptural. Without free will we cannot make a choice, if we cannot make a choice, there is no reason to spread the good news.

Yukerboy
Jan 6th 2009, 02:46 PM
Just because there is not a verse assigned to something does not mean it is not scriptural.

If it is not found in the Scriptures, then it is probably untrue.


Without free will we cannot make a choice

Agreed.


if we cannot make a choice, there is no reason to spread the good news.

when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. (Acts 13:48)

The reason we spread the good news is not to saved those that have not been appointed to eternal life, but so that those who are appointed to eternal life will believe.

Gregg
Jan 6th 2009, 02:51 PM
If it is not found in the Scriptures, then it is probably untrue.



Agreed.



when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. (Acts 13:48)

The reason we spread the good news is not to saved those that have not been appointed to eternal life, but so that those who are appointed to eternal life will believe.

So those that have been appointed eternal life will not get it if they fail to believe? That does not seem like appointed. If God appointed them why would we need to be in the mix?

Gregg
Jan 6th 2009, 02:52 PM
Is it not scriptual that God would like all to be saved?

Yukerboy
Jan 6th 2009, 03:00 PM
So those that have been appointed eternal life will not get it if they fail to believe? That does not seem like appointed. If God appointed them why would we need to be in the mix?

They will not fail to believe.

We are in the mix because God so that God's good purposes will be fulfilled.

For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.

Were those nations who are to be under the beast doing that of their own free will? No, they do what they do to fulfill God's purpose.

Yukerboy
Jan 6th 2009, 03:04 PM
Is it not scriptual that God would like all to be saved?

Yes it is, and God's will and His desires are two seperate things.

You think God wanted Satan to fall? Yet God knowing He would, created Him anyway.

You think God wanted some of man to be condemned? Yet God created Adam knowing that by doing so, God would need to condemn most men.

mikebr
Jan 6th 2009, 04:49 PM
Yes it is, and God's will and His desires are two seperate things.

You think God wanted Satan to fall? Yet God knowing He would, created Him anyway.

You think God wanted some of man to be condemned? Yet God created Adam knowing that by doing so, God would need to condemn most men.




Could there be a thing such as grace without an adversary?


.................no I don't believe that God wants any to be condemned.

A very nice thought but unscriptural.

Diolectic
Jan 6th 2009, 04:54 PM
God did command the Israelites to kill women, children, infants and the like.

What do you call driving a sword into the chest of two year old children? I call it murder.It's not murder, that would be against God's commandment, #6.

Those two year old children grow up to be older, able enimies.
True peace is the anialation of the enimy, including the babies.
Psa 137:9 Happy shall he be, that takes and dashes your little ones against the stones.


As Paul said, God made the law so that trespasses would increase.Romans 7:13 Was then that which is good become death to me? God forbid. But, the law exists for the reason of making unlawful affections to be evidently unlawful. It made death to be evident within me by that which is good; In other words, the requirements exist so that my unlawful affections would be evidently more wicked in contrast to the specific requirements.

Diolectic
Jan 6th 2009, 04:55 PM
If God didn't create good and evil, there wouldn't be much of a choice.God never created moral evil!!!

Diolectic
Jan 6th 2009, 04:57 PM
Originally Posted by Gregg
Thank you....um darkness is really the absense of light it is not just a saying. As far as scriptures go, can sin stand in Heaven in front of God? Is that not why we need to be cleaned by the blood of Christ?
Didn't Satan walk into the throne room in Job or am I missing something?Satan is not SIN.
Yes, you missed it. ;)

Diolectic
Jan 6th 2009, 04:59 PM
Oh, Job is one of those things that I have to leave up to God and just try to get as much out of it as possilble. God even having a discussion with satan, wagering with him, God letting satan take his children. Giving him new ones does not seem like it is something that would take the sting out of losing the old ones, etc. is hard to understand at times.Yet Job, being so obedient to God would have gladly given up everything just to be an example of sin (satan) getting on a righteous man, if he new God wanted to use him for the Book. Many have turned to Job in hard times, I am glad he is in the Book.The message of Job is that All things are passed through the hands of God.
NOT that all things are caused by God.

Diolectic
Jan 6th 2009, 05:01 PM
Another saying that is nice, but also Unscriptural.Oh, it is VERY scriptural, do not deny it.
For with out choice, there can be no culpability.

There is choise of free will through out the Scriptures.


when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. (Acts 13:48)


The reason we spread the good news is not to saved those that have not been appointed to eternal life, but so that those who are appointed to eternal life will believe.Hence, the subject of this thread:

Concerning that which HE reveals Himself in His Scriptures:*
God will do things that would be deemed as sadistically tyrannical in human terms, but just because He is God, He is be justified in doing such things."

Acts 13:48 God appoints only some to eternal life, and the rest He appoints to eternal damnation.*

If they are "appointed" to damnation, then they are doing His will in doing that which merits damnation.

Doing God's will is never sin, therefore, they are d@mned for no sin at all.

Their d@mnation is unjustified.

*mis-interpreting the Scriptures


Were those nations who are to be under the beast doing that of their own free will? No, they do what they do to fulfill God's purpose.YES!!! They doing of their own free will

God never purposes sin!

If God purposed them to sin, then they do His will. The sin ceases to be sin.



Is it not scriptural that God would like all to be saved? Yes it is, and God's will and His desires are two separate things.No, hence, the the subject of this thread.

God is not double souled. He does not have two wills (desires)


You think God wanted Satan to fall? Yet God knowing He would, created Him anyway.


You think God wanted some of man to be condemned? Yet God created Adam knowing that by doing so, God would need to condemn most men.The knowledge of another's choice does not take the options away from the one choosing, nor does it stop the freedom to choose. God is not the One who determines a man's choices just because He knows them.

Knowing these facts:
1 - Human beings have the freedom of choice.
2 - God foreknows all these choices.
3 - God created the world in which the most possible souls repent with the least amount of accountability and judgment for those who don't repent.

Your questions are along the lines as these:
Why would a loving God create those He knows will not repent?
If God did not create those who He knows will not repent, that alteration of this optimum amount of repented would change the circumstances to where it would cause more to not repent as the other alternative worlds.

If God knew men would not repent, why did God create them?
I will give an example to answer this one.

My intention is to invite & to dine with my whole neighborhood to my favorite restaurant.
I know that most will not come and dine with me, however, that does not change my intention to do so.
As it is with God for intending to create those who will not repent.

Then, come the questions:
Why would I intend on inviting those who I know will not show up?
It is because I love them, the invitation proves my love for them. Furthermore, if I don't invite those who I know will not come, it will cause some that I know who will come to deny my invitation.
Or
Why would God intend on creating those who He knows will not repent?
It is because HE loves them anyway, the invitation of the Cross of Christ to repent proves His love for them. Furthermore, if HE didn't create those that HE knows will not repent, it will cause some that HE knows who will repent to not repent .

Just as in real life, God will use the death of a person(saved or not) to cause another to come to Him.

Or, as I mentioned above, If God didn't create them, it would cause more to not repent as the other alternative worlds.

divaD
Jan 6th 2009, 05:25 PM
That's why we are saved by grace. It doesn't require us to do anything or think anything. God's will alone saves anyone.


It's a good thing Noah wasn't taught this. He could have saved all that time and effort that he put into building the ark in order to be saved, and just trusted in God's grace alone to save him instead. IOW, all Noah needed to do was have faith that God would save him. He didn't need to prove that faith by his works, which would be the building of the ark in order to be saved. Perhaps someone else may buy this, but I don't.

Diolectic
Jan 6th 2009, 06:15 PM
The bible makes clear that our choice is always rebellion against God to some degree.What is "to some degree"?

Since there is choice, you can not say as fact that "our choice is always"


So all are, by our own choices we make in our hearts, rebels.All are, by our own choices we make in our hearts, NOT rebels if/when they choose not to rebel.


That's why we are saved by grace. It doesn't require us to do anything or think anything. God's will alone saves anyone. Tell that to the Israelites who needed to do something before the "Death angle" took the first born.
They needed to put blood on there door post.
So as all mankind must choose to believe and aply the blood on ourselves.

reformedct
Jan 6th 2009, 06:17 PM
In the beginning, after Adam sinned, God thought to Himself:
"For this reason (Adam's sin) I will give the rest of mankind a nature that causes them to do that which I hate."
"This nature which I give them will make it impossible for mankind to obey my commands, but I will condemn them anyway."
"They will be condemned for that which is inevitable (sin)"

Concerning that which HE reviels Himself in His Scriptures:*
God will do things that would be deemed as sadistically tyranical in human terms, but just because He is God, He is be justified in doing such things."

"If any happen to question Him (God) about these injustices, 'You will say then unto (Him), Why does he yet find fault? For who has resisted his will?
Nay but, O man, who are you that replies against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why have you made me thus?" (Rom 9:19-20)*


*mis-interpreting the Scriptures

God did not give humanity a sin nature. Adam did. Through one mans disobedience all were made sinners. NOt because God made them that way. Humans defiled themselves. God allowed sin though he does not desire sin. Adam was the high preist of humanity, through his sin sin passed to all. Christ is the new Adam, through His one act of obedience many are made righteouss

reformedct
Jan 6th 2009, 06:20 PM
Just because there is not a verse assigned to something does not mean it is not scriptural. Without free will we cannot make a choice, if we cannot make a choice, there is no reason to spread the good news.


our hope is not in choice, but in the Holy Spirit who convict of sin. This is one of the problems with the seeker-sensitive church. They think that if they do things the way sinners want it, the sinners will be more willing to accept Christ. The whole shebang is based on the hope that man can be persuaded by natural, logical means to come into the kingdom.

The natural man cannot submit to the things of God


Our only hope is in the Spirit to open the eyes of the blind.

When we witness that takes a ton of pressure off of us. OUr job is to preach the gospel to all, in hope that the Spirit will change their hearts as we preach the gospel

Diolectic
Jan 6th 2009, 06:38 PM
God did not give humanity a sin nature. Adam did.Adam has no authority, nor the creative power to give people their nature.
According to some peoples theology/doctrine, God did because of Adam.


Through one mans disobedience all were made sinners.
We must remember that Paul’s argument is still defending justification by obedience of faith, as that is the predominate theme through out Romans.
Notice the word "Just as through"& "even so through"
This is a comparison of the two.
I put brackets to for better understanding;
Romans 5:19 Just as through the one mans disobedience, [in like manner of disobedience] the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one, [in like manner of obedience] so shall the many be made righteous.
It must be this way, otherwise you get universal salvation.
If the many were made sinners involuntarily without choice, the many must be made righteous involuntarily without choice.


Adam was the high priest of humanityWhere do you get this?
Scriture, Chapter & verse, please?


through his sin, sin passed to all.Physical death passed to all (Romans 5:12)


Christ is the new Adam, through His one act of obedience many are made righteousIn like manner of our obedience, we are made righteous, because of His obedience.
We must obey the command to put our faith in & on Christ and what HE had said & done in order to be made righteous

Diolectic
Jan 6th 2009, 06:39 PM
The natural man cannot submit to the things of GodWrong!
He is commanded to.
Command implies ability.

reformedct
Jan 6th 2009, 07:13 PM
Wrong!
He is commanded to.
Command implies ability.

Command implies ability. It does not mean there is ability.

How can the Bible be wrong? the Bible says the natural man cannot submit? so you are right and the Bible is wrong?

Paul was compare/contrasting Jesus and Adam

through Adams sin many were made sinners. through Christs obedience many were made righteous. thats what the Bible says. AS far as your argument of our obedience plus Christs obedience makes us righteouss i dont really know what you are talking about because it does not say that in that passage. In that passage it is talking about death passing to all through Adams sin and righteousness coming to all in Christ. Its very plain


To say it is wrong that the natural man cannot submit to the things of God is to make the Bible wrong. It is clear that the natural man cannot please God. Dont argue with me about it, argue to God

Diolectic
Jan 6th 2009, 08:37 PM
Command implies ability. It does not mean there is ability.

How can the Bible be wrong? the Bible says the natural man cannot submit? so you are right and the Bible is wrong?They can not, in the way that one who refuses and can not.
They can, but they won't.
Example:
I can't vote for Oboma for President.
I can, but won't(didn't)


Paul was compare/contrasting Jesus and Adam

through Adams sin many were made sinners. through Christs obedience many were made righteous. thats what the Bible says. I know, I'm not denying that.
However, the way I wrote it is the way it must be interpreted.


To say it is wrong that the natural man cannot submit to the things of God is to make the Bible wrong.Your interpretation of it is wrong.
the natural man can & he must submit to the things of God !!! He is commanded to.

God will never command that which is imposible.
If He does, you should command your childeren to do imposible things & punish them for non-compliance in order to be a more Godly parent.


It is clear that the natural man cannot please God. Dont argue with me about it, argue to GodI don't need to argue with God, you need to interpret the Scriptures correctly as to not present God as a sadistical tyrant; commanding imposibilities and condemning for non compliance.
Condemning for the inevitable...ect...

The natural man can, but he will not.
When the Scriptures say that the can't natural man cannot submit to the things of God, it is like saying that you can cheet on your wife.
You can, but you will not.

the natural man cannot please God because he will only try to in the flesh which realy CAN NOT. However, if the "the natural man" does yeild to the spirit, he will no longer be a "natural man".


BTW, exactly where does it say that "the natural man cannot submit to God"?

Yukerboy
Jan 6th 2009, 10:15 PM
It's not murder, that would be against God's commandment, #6.

I'll remember that when I see someone deciding to kill a two year old on the news and that diolectic said "It's not murder" :rolleyes:

Casey Anthony declared innocent, page 1 of Diolectic news.



Those two year old children grow up to be older, able enimies.
True peace is the anialation of the enimy, including the babies.


If that were the case, then all flesh would be destroyed now, for the flesh is enmity against God.

True peace is the absorption of the enemy. God made peace with man, not by destroying them, but by bringing them into His own.



Psa 137:9 Happy shall he be, that takes and dashes your little ones against the stones.

Romans 7:13 Was then that which is good become death to me? God forbid. But, the law exists for the reason of making unlawful affections to be evidently unlawful. It made death to be evident within me by that which is good; In other words, the requirements exist so that my unlawful affections would be evidently more wicked in contrast to the specific requirements.


The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,

God added the law so sin would increase.

Butch5
Jan 6th 2009, 10:17 PM
Command implies ability. It does not mean there is ability.

How can the Bible be wrong? the Bible says the natural man cannot submit? so you are right and the Bible is wrong?

Paul was compare/contrasting Jesus and Adam

through Adams sin many were made sinners. through Christs obedience many were made righteous. thats what the Bible says. AS far as your argument of our obedience plus Christs obedience makes us righteouss i dont really know what you are talking about because it does not say that in that passage. In that passage it is talking about death passing to all through Adams sin and righteousness coming to all in Christ. Its very plain


To say it is wrong that the natural man cannot submit to the things of God is to make the Bible wrong. It is clear that the natural man cannot please God. Dont argue with me about it, argue to God

If you study that Verse in 1 Cor. you will find that the reason the natural man (the Greeks) receive not the things of the Spirit of God is because it was the opposite of the theology they held to. They would not receive it, because it went against their theology. They considered it foolishness. It was not because they were unable to receive it.

Diolectic
Jan 6th 2009, 11:49 PM
God did command the Israelites to kill women, children, infants and the like.

What do you call driving a sword into the chest of two year old children? I call it murder.It's not murder, that would be against God's commandment, #6.
I'll remember that when I see someone deciding to kill a two year old on the news and that diolectic said "It's not murder" :rolleyes:

Casey Anthony declared innocent, page 1 of Diolectic news.You call whatever God commands His people to do is murder?
You equate that which Casey Anthony did as to obeying God's command? Did God command Casey Anthony to kill a child?



Those two year old children grow up to be older, able enimies.
True peace is the anialation of the enimy, including the babies.If that were the case, then all flesh would be destroyed now, for the flesh is enmity against God.Flesh is not THE ENIMY, it is AT ENMITY. And it is the carnal mind that is at enmity with God, not the flesh (Romans 8:7).
Therefore, it is not the case.


True peace is the absorption of the enemy. God made peace with man, not by destroying them, but by bringing them into His own.Yes, God helps us to do away with that which is at enmity with Him (Romans 12:2).



Romans 7:13 Was then that which is good become death to me? God forbid. But, the law exists for the reason of making unlawful affections to be evidently unlawful. It made death to be evident within me by that which is good; In other words, the requirements exist so that my unlawful affections would be evidently more wicked in contrast to the specific requirements. The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,
Romans 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
See Romans 7:13
Moreover the law entered, that the offense would be seen as so very great in contrast to the goodness of the law. So where transgression abounded, grace did much more abound because, they saw there offense to be as so very great in contrast of the law.

Your only confirming my opening post of this thread and the title of it, Some peoples beliefs and their mis-interpretation of Scriptures.


God added the law so sin would increase.Yah, right, God realy wants that which HE hates to increas.

Yukerboy
Jan 7th 2009, 12:14 AM
You call whatever God commands His people to do is murder?
You equate that which Casey Anthony did as to obeying God's command? Did God command Casey Anthony to kill a child?

So is killing a 2 year old murder?

Either both are murder or neither are murder. Let's not state that an Israelite driving a sword through the chest of a 2 year old is fine, yet another killing a two year old is murder.

I couldn't be that hypocritical.

God commanded his people to murder, and it was holy and righteous. But it was murder.

Just as the one who is born again has their mind controlled by the Spirit therefore any act the born again do, even if it seems like sin to you, is holy and righteous.


Yah, right, God realy wants that which HE hates to increas.

Finally, we agree and you finally agree with the Scripture.

God's commandment made sin spring to life. Did God know it would do that? My God knew, did yours?

Sirus
Jan 7th 2009, 01:18 AM
God did command the Israelites to kill women, children, infants and the like....and for good reason too! It's not like it was just some random thought for entertainment.

Sirus
Jan 7th 2009, 01:20 AM
Darkness is the absence of light. Sin is the absence of God. When we choose to keep God out, sin is the result.Where was God when Adam sinned? Is that why Adam sinned? No!

Sirus
Jan 7th 2009, 01:23 AM
The natural man cannot submit to the things of GodIf you read that in context you wouldn't be using here excusing a nature.

reformedct
Jan 7th 2009, 02:17 AM
If you read that in context you wouldn't be using here excusing a nature.

well, since i am open to consider that maybe i am wrong, please explain to me how the natural man cannot submit to God is taken out of context.

Sirus
Jan 7th 2009, 02:47 AM
What 'things' in the context can the natural man not receive?

1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Does the natural man have the Spirit that reveals these things, or do believers?
This has absolutely nothing to do with being saved or whether or not one can respond to God. Nothing.

reformedct
Jan 7th 2009, 03:02 AM
What 'things' in the context can the natural man not receive?

1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Does the natural man have the Spirit that reveals these things, or do believers?
This has absolutely nothing to do with being saved or whether or not one can respond to God. Nothing.


im not disagreeing with anything in 1st Corinthians but how is this in context? the verse i stated was in Romans 8?:confused

i believe you said if i read the verse in context i wouldnt have said what the Bible says about the natural man?

Diolectic
Jan 7th 2009, 03:06 AM
What 'things' in the context can the natural man not receive?

1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Does the natural man have the Spirit that reveals these things, or do believers?
This has absolutely nothing to do with being saved or whether or not one can respond to God. Nothing.Don't forget, "that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God has showed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and deity; so that they are without excuse."(Rom 1:19-20)

Diolectic
Jan 7th 2009, 03:12 AM
im not disagreeing with anything in 1st Corinthians but how is this in context? the verse i stated was in Romans 8?:confusedWhere in Romans 8?


i believe you said if i read the verse in context i wouldnt have said what the Bible says about the natural man?

The natural man cannot submit to the things of GodWhy would God command what He knows we can't do?
Since it don't make any sense, you must be mis-interpreting it.
When somthing don't make sense, seek the interpretation which makes to be sensible.

reformedct
Jan 7th 2009, 03:27 AM
Where in Romans 8?

Why would God command what He knows we can't do?
Since it don't make any sense, you must be mis-interpreting it.
When somthing don't make sense, seek the interpretation which makes to be sensible.

Look. The Bible says alot of things. The Bible has a bunch of laws. Did God give the laws so they could obey them or because He wanted to show them their inability to obey them? Both. The law was given that sin may increase

As far as i know, besides Jesus, 100% of mankind has not kept the whole law. Yet God commands 100% to keep the law.

Your error is that because something doesnt make sense TO YOU therefore it must be wrong


It makes perfect sense to me

God demands perfection

We cant be perfect

God shows us that so we will be willing to recieve the Messiah

makes perfect sense to me, as Paul says the law was given that sin may become exceedingly sinful.

Sometimes God commands what we cannot do in and of ourselves

Diolectic
Jan 7th 2009, 03:33 AM
You call whatever God commands His people to do is murder?


You equate that which Casey Anthony did as to obeying God's command? Did God command Casey Anthony to kill a child? So is killing a 2 year old murder?God does not command murder! So, that which God did is not murder. It don't matter if it is a two year old or not.


Either both are murder or neither are murder. Let's not state that an Israelite driving a sword through the chest of a 2 year old is fine, yet another killing a two year old is murder.God commanded it. God does not murder.
It would only be murder if God did not command it.
The two year old dies under the circumstance of it's parents sin & the judgment of it.
It is not the penalty of any kind of sin for the infant.
Physical death is not the penalty for sin for anybody.
However, the penalty of sin is spiritual death; the penalty of sin is not “to die, or even to suffer an eternal punishment”.
The only reason that the damned suffer an eternal punishment is because they die without spiritual Life which is a relationship with Jesus. If spiritual life after death is to be in the presence with God eternally, then to die without spiritual life is eternal death, which is eternal punishment. That is because if one does not stay in the presence of Christ, there is no other place to be but in outer darkness where there is gnashing of teeth.

Infants are innocent, therefore when they die physically, they go to be with God in heaven.
There is no injustice with God.


God commanded his people to murder, and it was holy and righteous. But it was murder.:eek: God commanded His people to brake His commandments? :o
Now I’ve heard everything!


Just as the one who is born again has their mind controlled by the Spirit therefore any act the born again do, even if it seems like sin to you, is holy and righteous.Where do you get this stuff? :lol:



Yah, right, God really wants that which HE hates to increase. Finally, we agree and you finally agree with the Scripture.I was being sarcastic.


God's commandment made sin spring to life.Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Are the requirements themselves bad? Let that not be! Because I did not know my desires were unlawful until I found the law to be against them; for also I did not know lust [was wrong] until I read the requirement, "You shall not lust."
Genesis 2:17
Ex. 20:17

8 Now lawlessness took its start through the commandment, and from that, it brought about (revealed) in me all that were truly unlawful desires.

(This next part of the verse should be read as part of verse 9
Romans 4:15
Now, when there are no law, there is no lawlessness...
9...And I was (really spiritually) alive when I didn't know the law, but when I heard of that specific requirement ("You shall not lust." v.7), then my affections became known as unlawful, and I died spiritually.

Diolectic
Jan 7th 2009, 03:48 AM
Look. The Bible says a lot of things. The Bible has a bunch of laws. Did God give the laws so they could obey them or because He wanted to show them their inability to obey them? Both. The law was given that sin may increaseThere is no inability to obey.
I could obey as a non-Christian, when in fact I did.
I just didn't do it consistently.
I didn't always lie, steel, murder, lust, covet; I kept the Sabbath, I did not always make an idol, I didn't always use God's name in vain.

His commandments are able to be obeyed, this is a fact which you can not deny.


As far as i know, besides Jesus, 100% of mankind has not kept the whole law. Yet God commands 100% to keep the law.Not that they couldn't, for if they couldn't, they would be innocent. For there is no law against inability.
Any law against an inability is unjust.
Make a law that people in wheel chairs must walk, that is unjust.


Your error is that because something doesn’t make sense TO YOU therefore it must be wrongNot just that is don't make sense to me, but not at all for anyone.


It makes perfect sense to me
God demands perfection
God declares, “My yoke is easy, and my burden is light” (Matt. 11:30). “His commandments are not grievous.” (1 Jn. 5:3) Because His yoke, burden, and commandments are easy and light, and are not grievous, “ye are able” to keep them. To say “ye are not able” is to say His yoke, burden, and commandments are hard, heavy and burdensome, which would be contrary to the direct and explicit declarations God has given of Himself. The one who misrepresents the commandments must of necessity misrepresent the Commander.


We cant be perfectThe extent of God’s commandments is the exact extent of man’s ability, and the extent of man’s ability is the extent of God’s commandments; each one establishes and determines the limitations and boundaries of the other, and since man will be judged by the commandments, the extent of man’s accountability will be the extent of man’s ability. A man will not be accountable for that which he was not capable of; he will not be judged for that which was outside of the realm of his control.


God shows us that so we will be willing to receive the Messiah/QUOTE]We need the Messiah because we willfully, intentional, volitional disobeyed that which we are able to do.
We need the Messiah because we need to be forgiven for that reason.
Obeying the law can not make up for that which we already done.

[QUOTE]Sometimes God commands what we cannot do in and of ourselvesThat All mankind is able to come to come to God for that reason.

Joe King
Jan 7th 2009, 01:10 PM
God never created moral evil!!!

Please elaborate.

Yukerboy
Jan 7th 2009, 01:24 PM
Before I begin, I want to point out that while diolectic and I have huge disagreements, I respect not only him as a person, but also his views. My last post did not show that and I apologize.

I have nothing against diolectic except that I feel he misinterprets Scripture, as I am sure he feels the same about me.


God does not command murder! So, that which God did is not murder. It don't matter if it is a two year old or not.

I ask you, define murder.



God commanded it. God does not murder.
It would only be murder if God did not command it.


Now we are getting somewhere.

God works in all who believe to will and act according to His good pleasure. Their minds are controlled by the Holy Spirit. So, anything they do after salvation is a command from God and hence, not a sin.



The two year old dies under the circumstance of it's parents sin & the judgment of it.
It is not the penalty of any kind of sin for the infant.
Physical death is not the penalty for sin for anybody.
However, the penalty of sin is spiritual death; the penalty of sin is not “to die, or even to suffer an eternal punishment”.
The only reason that the damned suffer an eternal punishment is because they die without spiritual Life which is a relationship with Jesus. If spiritual life after death is to be in the presence with God eternally, then to die without spiritual life is eternal death, which is eternal punishment. That is because if one does not stay in the presence of Christ, there is no other place to be but in outer darkness where there is gnashing of teeth.
Infants are innocent, therefore when they die physically, they go to be with God in heaven.
There is no injustice with God.


I said before I do not take enough time to show where I agree and to much time to show where I disagree.

I agree with the quote above 100%.





:eek: God commanded His people to brake His commandments? :o
Now I’ve heard everything!


Once again, define murder. You tell me what murder is and let's compare it to God telling grown men to drive swords into the chests of babies.





Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Are the requirements themselves bad? Let that not be! Because I did not know my desires were unlawful until I found the law to be against them; for also I did not know lust [was wrong] until I read the requirement, "You shall not lust."
Genesis 2:17
Ex. 20:17

8 Now lawlessness took its start through the commandment, and from that, it brought about (revealed) in me all that were truly unlawful desires.

(This next part of the verse should be read as part of verse 9
Romans 4:15
Now, when there are no law, there is no lawlessness...
9...And I was (really spiritually) alive when I didn't know the law, but when I heard of that specific requirement ("You shall not lust." v.7), then my affections became known as unlawful, and I died spiritually.


Once again, I agree.

Walstib
Jan 7th 2009, 02:20 PM
God works in all who believe to will and act according to His good pleasure. Their minds are controlled by the Holy Spirit. So, anything they do after salvation is a command from God and hence, not a sin.

HI Yuke,

This is one place I have been having a hard time understanding you. Where I sit I think both you and Diolectic are justified and regenerated. I'm not God to know for sure but lets go with this assumption.

Under your definition above both of your minds are controlled by the Holy Spirit. And all the keystrokes of your posts have been command by God.

Why don't you both agree perfectly if God is behind all of your actions? If you are right to me it could only be resolved by one of you not being regenerated.

Trying to understand, I have a hard time believing I am not in control of my actions.

Peace,
Joe

graceforme
Jan 7th 2009, 02:50 PM
Grace it the greatest "humblizer" in all creation. Without the capacity to sin we could never understand grace. Without being unconditionally forgiven we would think we had something to do with it. I used to be humbled by my sin. Now I'm more humbled by the fact that He has forgiven my sin.

I quess what I am saying is that he gave us the capacity to sin so we would have the capacity to recieve grace.


Great words. Grace should humble us. Many follow the Lord out of pure fear and are "working" their way to heaven. It all comes down to what motivates us, doesn't it? Is it love or fear? Joy in service results from serving the Lord out of love for what He has done for us.

God is good ..... all the time.
All the time ..... God is good!

Yukerboy
Jan 7th 2009, 07:30 PM
HI Yuke,

This is one place I have been having a hard time understanding you. Where I sit I think both you and Diolectic are justified and regenerated. I'm not God to know for sure but lets go with this assumption.

Under your definition above both of your minds are controlled by the Holy Spirit. And all the keystrokes of your posts have been command by God.

Why don't you both agree perfectly if God is behind all of your actions? If you are right to me it could only be resolved by one of you not being regenerated.

Trying to understand, I have a hard time believing I am not in control of my actions.

Peace,
Joe

This is a great point and I want you to follow carefully what I am about to say.

Obviously, either I am wrong or Diolectic is wrong. However, I do believe that I and Diolectic are born again and thus both of us are led by the Hioly SPirit to post what we have.

How then can there be disagreement?

Paul became all things to all men so that he might save some.

Some may read that which Diolectic posted and say "Oh, so THAT'S what God meant" and then come to salvation.

Some may read that which I have posted and say "Oh, so THAT's what God meant" and then come to salvation.

Some will believe for a while and may have fallen away if left to their own devices, but after reading what God PREDESTINED and MADE both Diolectic and I to post as we did, then they do not fall away.

Some may never read these posts but talk to someone who has who then convinces them that God will save them.

This falls under the whole "Does God make bad happen for good" and the answer, as the murder of the Amelkites infants show, is absolutely yes!

I may go to heaven and God tell me that I was completely wrong and Diolectic completely right. But if so, and I am born again, He will also say well done good and faithful servant for by doing as the Holy Spirit led you, this person, this person, and the other person also came to salvation.

And of course, vice versa.

Emanate
Jan 7th 2009, 07:44 PM
As far as i know, besides Jesus, 100% of mankind has not kept the whole law. Yet God commands 100% to keep the law.


This is an outright impossiblity.

Nowhere does God command a single person to keep 100% of the law. If you actually read the law, it is quite apparent. A man cannot keep laws that apply only to women and vice versa. A benjamite cannot keep the laws that apply to levites or he would be in direct violation of the same commands.

Messiah did not (and could not) keep 100% of the law either.

Diolectic
Jan 7th 2009, 07:58 PM
I ask you, define murder.Pre-meditated, inhumain death which is not justified.





God commanded his people to murder, and it was holy and righteous. But it was murder.God commanded His people to brake His commandments? :o
Now I’ve heard everything! You tell me what murder is and let's compare it to God telling grown men to drive swords into the chests of babies.God commanded to kill babies; for what reason?
Think about 100s of thousands of orphans.

Another thing is that those orphans will grow up with a hatred for Israel because they killed their parents, when those orphans grow up to be men, they will be Israel’s enemy also.

War back then was not like it is now.
Back then, they did not have the Geneva Convention's set standards for international law for humanitarian concerns.
War casualties sometimes included the innocent.
God claimed the lives of the innocent as casualties of war, but they who were innocent are not judged eternally.

----------------
I need to bring this next part up, because it is SOOO ridiculous.

God commanded his people to murder, and it was holy and righteous. But it was murder.Explain how & why God would command manking dot to murder, then turn around and to that which He commands not to do?


Just as the one who is born again has their mind controlled by the Spirit therefore any act the born again do, even if it seems like sin to you, is holy and righteous.God does not practice "mind condrol"
To say that ones mind is "controled" by the Spirit, is to submitt ones mind to the Spirit with the option to not submit.

Give an example of a seemingly sinful act that the Church has done.

Yukerboy
Jan 7th 2009, 10:16 PM
Pre-meditated, inhumain death which is not justified.

We agree!

Now, the Israelites, who did what looked to be murder to anyone who would have been watching the scene play out, did the act of murder in everyone's eyes but the eyes of God, who made their act JUSTIFIED!

Just as the born again are justified by God (Romans 8:30) from EVERYTHING that they could not be justified from by the law of Moses (Acts 13:39)




God commanded to kill babies; for what reason?
Think about 100s of thousands of orphans.

Another thing is that those orphans will grow up with a hatred for Israel because they killed their parents, when those orphans grow up to be men, they will be Israel’s enemy also.

War back then was not like it is now.
Back then, they did not have the Geneva Convention's set standards for international law for humanitarian concerns.
War casualties sometimes included the innocent.
God claimed the lives of the innocent as casualties of war, but they who were innocent are not judged eternally.


Agreed!
----------------


I need to bring this next part up, because it is SOOO ridiculous.
Explain how & why God would command manking dot to murder, then turn around and to that which He commands not to do?


God commands do not murder, yet knowing what Satan would do, did not God allow Satan to murder Job's family? Could Satan have done it without God's permission?



God does not practice "mind condrol"
To say that ones mind is "controled" by the Spirit, is to submitt ones mind to the Spirit with the option to not submit.


Romans 8:6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace.

You have two options here.

Are the born again death or crossed over from death to life?



Give an example of a seemingly sinful act that the Church has done


James 4:1-12 unless you believe they were never born again.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 7th 2009, 10:40 PM
Adam has no authority, nor the creative power to give people their nature.
According to some peoples theology/doctrine, God did because of Adam.


It is cause and affect. Nothing to do with authority or creative power.

God said that in the day that you eat that, you will die.

Adam carried the seed of the whole of mankind in his lions when he sinned.
He became as a bad tree that cannot bare good fruit. If the tree is bad, then so is the fruit.

Diolectic
Jan 7th 2009, 10:56 PM
It is cause and affect. Nothing to do with authority or creative power.

God said that in the day that you eat that, you will die.

Adam carried the seed of the whole of mankind in his lions when he sinned.
He became as a bad tree that cannot bare good fruit. If the tree is bad, then so is the fruit.Adam was restored back into fellowship with God.
He became a treee with good fruit.
His seed should be the same by your logic.

God had to be the one to inaugurate the passing down the so called "sin nature", therfore, it was God who gave mankind a sin nature if there was one.
Hence, my first post:
In the beginning, after Adam sinned, God thought to Himself:
"For this reason (Adam's sin) I will give the rest of mankind a nature that causes them to do that which I hate."
"This nature which I give them will make it impossible for mankind to obey my commands, but I will condemn them anyway."
"They will be condemned for that which is inevitable (sin)"

Yukerboy
Jan 7th 2009, 10:58 PM
It is cause and affect. Nothing to do with authority or creative power.

God said that in the day that you eat that, you will die.

Adam carried the seed of the whole of mankind in his lions when he sinned.
He became as a bad tree that cannot bare good fruit. If the tree is bad, then so is the fruit.


I have never seen Adam put in this light before. Very interesting!

And Partaker, so you know, I have always enjoyed the threads we have posted in together.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 7th 2009, 10:58 PM
Wrong!
He is commanded to.
Command implies ability.

He is not wrong.
Even before the Lord gave the commandments, He knew that hey had not a heart to do them.

The people said to Moses, go and hear all that God has to say, and we will do them. God said "O that there were such an heart in them"

Deu 5:25 Now therefore why should we die? for this great fire will consume us: if we hear the voice of the LORD our God any more, then we shall die.
Deu 5:26 For who is there of all flesh, that hath heard the voice of the living God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as we have, and lived?
Deu 5:27 Go thou near, and hear all that the LORD our God shall say: and speak thou unto us all that the LORD our God shall speak unto thee; and we will hear it, and do it.
Deu 5:28 And the LORD heard the voice of your words, when ye spake unto me; and the LORD said unto me, I have heard the voice of the words of this people, which they have spoken unto thee: they have well said all that they have spoken.

Deu 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
Deu 5:30 Go say to them, Get you into your tents again.


Deu 9:4 Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the LORD thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, For my righteousness the LORD hath brought me in to possess this land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD doth drive them out from before thee.
Deu 9:5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 7th 2009, 11:03 PM
They can not, in the way that one who refuses and can not.
They can, but they won't.
Example:
I can't vote for Oboma for President.
I can, but won't(didn't)

I know, I'm not denying that.
However, the way I wrote it is the way it must be interpreted.

Your interpretation of it is wrong.
the natural man can & he must submit to the things of God !!! He is commanded to.

Show me one man (apart from Jesus) who did 100% keep the first and greatest commandment.

And remember, Jesus said; Only God is good.

Diolectic
Jan 7th 2009, 11:05 PM
We agree!

Now, the Israelites, who did what looked to be murder to anyone who would have been watching the scene play out,Stop there.
It only LOOKS like sin but it is not.
It looks like sin because the onlooker does not have enough understanding for them to make the correct assesment to call it anything else.



Explain how & why God would command manking dot to murder, then turn around and to that which He commands not to do?God commands do not murder, yet knowing what Satan would do, did not God allow Satan to murder Job's family? Could Satan have done it without God's permission?Satan murdered, God did not.
God is not responcible for what Satan did to Job.



God does not practice "mind condrol"
To say that ones mind is "controled" by the Spirit, is to submitt ones mind to the Spirit with the option to not submit.Romans 8:6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace.

You have two options here.

Are the born again death or crossed over from death to life?Huh?



Give an example of a seemingly sinful act that the Church has done James 4:1-12 unless you believe they were never born again.How is James 4:1-12 seemingly sinful acts?

Diolectic
Jan 7th 2009, 11:17 PM
Show me one man (apart from Jesus) who did 100% keep the first and greatest commandment.Irrelevant.
Your car can go 150pmh.
Why haven’t you driven that fast?
Because it can't?
Or
Iv'e never seen it go that fast, therfore it can't?


And remember, Jesus said; Only God is good.
Mat 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart...
Luk 23:50 And, behold, there was a man named Joseph, a member of the council and he was a good man, and just:
Act 11:24 For he was a good man(Barnabas)
Rom 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet perhaps for a good man some would even dare to die

Partaker of Christ
Jan 7th 2009, 11:27 PM
Where in Romans 8?

Why would God command what He knows we can't do?
Since it don't make any sense, you must be mis-interpreting it.
When somthing don't make sense, seek the interpretation which makes to be sensible.

Who was the law made for?

1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, and so on.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; (and that includes John the Baptist)

Matt 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Only God is good.

Yukerboy
Jan 7th 2009, 11:32 PM
Stop there.
It only LOOKS like sin but it is not.
It looks like sin because the onlooker does not have enough understanding for them to make the correct assesment to call it anything else.

RIGHT!

The onlooker doesn't know that it is justified. Just as now. When one sins, but is born again, the onlooker doesn't know that the born again were justified.


huh?

Romans 8:6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace.

You have two options here. One is the mind of the sinful man. The other is the mind controlled by the Holy Spirit.

The born again have their mind controlled by the Holy Spirit. This is why all they do is permissible. Everything they do is out of love.


How is James 4:1-12 seemingly sinful acts?

Is James talking to the born again here?

Partaker of Christ
Jan 7th 2009, 11:42 PM
Adam was restored back into fellowship with God.
He became a treee with good fruit.
His seed should be the same by your logic.

He was restored to fellowship, but not to life (regenerated). God had given him the gospel, but like Abraham, Issac and Jacob, it was a promise that was future.

If he had been 'fully' restored then why did he still die?

So no, he did not become a good tree. He was driven out from were the tree of life was. If he had been fully restored, then he would have been able to remain, and eat from the tree of life.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 7th 2009, 11:50 PM
Irrelevant.
Your car can go 150pmh.
Why haven’t you driven that fast?
Because it can't?
Or
Iv'e never seen it go that fast, therfore it can't?

My car struggles to do 50mph :lol:

Of course it is relevant.
Did God foreknow that man (no man) would not keep the greatest commandment?
Yes He did, so why did He yet give a commandment that He foreknew, that no man could or would keep?



Mat 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart...
Luk 23:50 And, behold, there was a man named Joseph, a member of the council and he was a good man, and just:
Act 11:24 For he was a good man(Barnabas)
Rom 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet perhaps for a good man some would even dare to die


So you suggest that Jesus got it wrong?

Sirus
Jan 8th 2009, 03:09 AM
It is cause and affect. Nothing to do with authority or creative power.

God said that in the day that you eat that, you will die.

Adam carried the seed of the whole of mankind in his lions when he sinned.
He became as a bad tree that cannot bare good fruit. If the tree is bad, then so is the fruit.Right. No problem. When did Adam's nature change so that changed nature could be passed to all Adam's descendants? Romans uses a word for condemnation 3 times (Rom 5, 8) that is not used anywhere else, and it plainly tells us what that condemnation was. Death. It means judgment.
-physical=separated from the tree of life
-spiritual=veiled relationship with God that without repentance and faith leads to the second death
Now I'm giving you this second one because although scripture does not say so when Adam sinned, it can easily be seen throughout scripture.

So how was Adam's nature changed?

Diolectic
Jan 8th 2009, 03:37 AM
Who was the law made for?

1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, and so on.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:We are the the righteousness of God in Christ (2Corinth 5:21).
We also have the righteousness of God by faith (Php 3:9)


Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; (and that includes John the Baptist)We as Christians understand now, we seek after God now, We do not come short of the glory of God now.

The law is not for the righteous, therefore it is not for Christians; we are taken out from under the law, and put under grace.


Only God is good.Luk 23:50 And, behold, there was a man named Joseph, a member of the council and he was a good man, and just:
Act 11:24 For he was a good man(Barnabas)
Rom 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet perhaps for a good man some would even dare to die.
So you suggest that Jesus got it wrong?No, but one must put it in context.
The verse could be read as:
Mat 19:16 And lo! one coming to Him said, "Teacher, what good shall I be doing that I should be having life eonian?"
17: Why do you ask me concerning what is good?" answered Jesus. "one is good. Keep the commandments if you want to enter life.

Jesus was saying that keeping the commandment are the Good, that is the "one is good".


Did God foreknow that man (no man) would not keep the greatest commandment?Yes.
so why did He yet give a commandment that He foreknew, that no man could or would keep?The fact that no man would keep it does not make a difrence weather a law should be or not.
God gave it because HE knew we could keep it, and that we should.

Diolectic
Jan 8th 2009, 04:08 AM
If he had been 'fully' restored then why did he still die?Because
he was as one of the trinity, as knowing good and evil. and now
Lest he put forth his hand, and take of the tree of life to eat, and live foreverGod sent him out from the garden of Eden to serve the ground from which he hath been taken.


So no, he did not become a good tree.Yes, he did, just as we do when we become restored back to God.


He was driven out from were the tree of life was. If he had been fully restored, then he would have been able to remain, and eat from the tree of life. No, he wouldn't, he still had the knowledge of good & evil, for that was the reason that he was cast out, not because he sinned.
It was the knowledge of good & evil that caused the physical death, it was the sin that caused the spiritual death.

Sirus
Jan 8th 2009, 04:30 AM
it was the sin that caused the spiritual death.where does it say he was ever anything other than mortal (1Cor 15)? If he was immortal what was the tree of life for? Kinda pointless......

Diolectic
Jan 8th 2009, 04:05 PM
where does it say he was ever anything other than mortal (1Cor 15)? If he was immortal what was the tree of life for? Kinda pointless......Adam was not Immortal, that is why the Tree of life was needed.
Why do you think I said he was?

John146
Jan 8th 2009, 06:41 PM
Is it not scriptual that God would like all to be saved?It is very scriptural.

1 Tim 2
3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

1 John 2
1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Acts 17
30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

BrckBrln
Jan 8th 2009, 06:48 PM
It is very scriptural.

1 Tim 2
3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

1 John 2
1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Acts 17
30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

I don't deny this (in a way), but, then, why isn't everybody saved?

Gregg
Jan 8th 2009, 06:54 PM
Yes it is, and God's will and His desires are two seperate things.

You think God wanted Satan to fall? Yet God knowing He would, created Him anyway.

You think God wanted some of man to be condemned? Yet God created Adam knowing that by doing so, God would need to condemn most men.

This is why we have free will. God desires that we choose him, if he willed it there would be no choice we would be robots or at the least pet dogs. He gives us what we need to make the good choice. He would not need to make unbelivers to help the believers believe, he could just make us all believers right out of the gate. Now we have the choice to accept the precious gift that God the Father has given us through God the Son, and then we can receive the Holy Ghost to help us on our earthly journey.

Ever wonder why God just doesn't annihilate those who do not choose salvation? If he didn't give us a choice, wouldn't that be the godly thing to do? He is so gracious and kind to us his creation....

Gregg
Jan 8th 2009, 06:55 PM
It is very scriptural.

1 Tim 2
3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

1 John 2
1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Acts 17
30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

Yep, and that is why we know we have free will to choose or not choose.

Diolectic
Jan 8th 2009, 07:05 PM
I don't deny this (in a way), but, then, why isn't everybody saved?Because the ones who do not become saved resist Him, that is why they are d@amned.
They are not d@mned because God did not want to save them.

BrckBrln
Jan 8th 2009, 07:09 PM
This is why we have free will. God desires that we choose him, if he willed it there would be no choice we would be robots or at the least pet dogs.

Wouldn't you rather be a saved robot than a non saved free willer?

Diolectic
Jan 8th 2009, 07:35 PM
Wouldn't you rather be a saved robot than a non saved free willer?No, Robots do not love.
I can program my computer to say I love you, but I'd rather have my wife to choose to on her very own.

IBWatching
Jan 8th 2009, 07:45 PM
Nice saying. Not Scriptural, but nice nonetheless.

I disagree...


John 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

Everyone who has Christ knows what the "darkness" is.

BrckBrln
Jan 8th 2009, 08:04 PM
No, Robots do not love.
I can program my computer to say I love you, but I'd rather have my wife to choose to on her very own.

Tell me, in heaven, in order for us to love God, will we be able to choose to rebel against Him? Since, we have to have a choice if it's to be true love, right?

Diolectic
Jan 8th 2009, 08:14 PM
Tell me, in heaven, in order for us to love God, will we be able to choose to rebel against Him? Since, we have to have a choice if it's to be true love, right?Right.
The holy angles still have a choice to rebel, but they will not.
Same for us, we will never sin, because there will be no temptaion & no flesh to fullfill the lusts of. However, we still have a choice.

It would be like chooseing between:
Sin = A poop pie and a cup of urine
Or
Not to sin = A delicious cake and a cup of home roasted fresh ground coffee

BrckBrln
Jan 8th 2009, 08:20 PM
Right.
The holy angles still have a choice to rebel, but they will not.
Same for us, we will never sin, because there will be no temptaion & no flesh to fullfill the lusts of. However, we still have a choice.

It would be like chooseing between:
Sin = A poop pie and a cup of urine
Or
Not to sin = A delicious cake and a cup of home roasted fresh ground coffee

So in heaven we can sin but we won't? Is that what you believe?

What about Satan though? He sinned, didn't he? Along with other angels. So if they sinned then why couldn't somebody in heaven also sin? I don't understand this 'can sin but won't'.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 8th 2009, 08:39 PM
Right.
The holy angles still have a choice to rebel, but they will not.
Same for us, we will never sin, because there will be no temptaion & no flesh to fullfill the lusts of. However, we still have a choice.

It would be like chooseing between:
Sin = A poop pie and a cup of urine
Or
Not to sin = A delicious cake and a cup of home roasted fresh ground coffee

1John 3:9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Perhaps John did not have the revelation you had?

divaD
Jan 8th 2009, 09:26 PM
I don't understand this 'can sin but won't'.



That makes 2 of us.

Obviously, sin, death, satan. etc will all be destroyed in the lake of fire. If all of this is done away with, then how will it be possible to sin? Why would we be promised eternal life if there were a possibility of us sinning again? I thought that's what got us into this mess in the first place. My conclusions would be this...no..we won't sin nor ever be tempted to. For how long will we be sin free? For forever. And that's a pretty long time when you think about it.

Diolectic
Jan 8th 2009, 09:47 PM
So in heaven we can sin but we won't? Is that what you believe?Yep, that is what I said.


What about Satan though?He is a great reminder for the holy angels.


He sinned, didn't he? Along with other angels.Yep

So if they sinned then why couldn't somebody in heaven also sin? I don't understand this 'can sin but won't'.Why would we sin?
Certainly not the same reason that Lucifer did.

Why do we sin now?
Because we choose to, because we want to.
In heaves, we will not ever want to, therefore we will choose not to.

See my analogy:
It would be like chooseing between:
Sin = A poop pie and a cup of urine
Or
Not to sin = A delicious cake and a cup of home roasted fresh ground coffee.

This si a no brainer, will you sin in heaven?

The analogy for sin on Earth:
Sin = No self control, anything you want any time you want.
Or
Not to sin = Self control

To sin is easier & more apealing to the flesh, which we still have.

Diolectic
Jan 8th 2009, 09:52 PM
That makes 2 of us.

Obviously, sin, death, satan. etc will all be destroyed in the lake of fire. If all of this is done away with, then how will it be possible to sin?Why would we not have a choice as Lucifer did?


Why would we be promised eternal life if there were a possibility of us sinning again?Because eternal life is knowing The Father, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom He sent (John 17:3)


I thought that's what got us into this mess in the first place.What is "that" which got us in the mess?


My conclusions would be this...no..we won't sin nor ever be tempted to. For how long will we be sin free? For forever. And that's a pretty long time when you think about it.That is my conclusion also.
Notice that you didn't say, "can't sin".

divaD
Jan 8th 2009, 09:58 PM
In heaves, we will not ever want to, therefore we will choose not to.


This is a pretty interesting statement. It appears to me that you are implying, that while in heaven, we will still have free will to choose.
Why would that be necessary?

If right now there is good and evil to choose from, and if evil is eventually done completely away with, then what would there be to choose, since everything would be good?

Partaker of Christ
Jan 8th 2009, 10:16 PM
Why would we not have a choice as Lucifer did?

Because eternal life is knowing The Father, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom He sent (John 17:3)

What is "that" which got us in the mess?

That is my conclusion also.
Notice that you didn't say, "can't sin".

There will be no choice.
My bible says it will be impossible for us to sin.

If you want to call that being robotic, then you will need to take that up with the Almighty God.

Yukerboy
Jan 8th 2009, 10:16 PM
This is why we have free will. God desires that we choose him, if he willed it there would be no choice we would be robots or at the least pet dogs. He gives us what we need to make the good choice. He would not need to make unbelivers to help the believers believe, he could just make us all believers right out of the gate. Now we have the choice to accept the precious gift that God the Father has given us through God the Son, and then we can receive the Holy Ghost to help us on our earthly journey.

Ever wonder why God just doesn't annihilate those who do not choose salvation? If he didn't give us a choice, wouldn't that be the godly thing to do? He is so gracious and kind to us his creation....

You will never find free will in the Bible.

You will find where James tells us that "God willing, we will do this, or God willing we will do that".

Man can't even choose Christ (John 15:16)

If man had free will, no one would be saved, for no one is righteous No one seeks God.


If right now there is good and evil to choose from, and if evil is eventually done completely away with, then what would there be to choose, since everything would be good?

Wasn't everything good when Satan did evil?

Diolectic
Jan 8th 2009, 10:32 PM
This is a pretty interesting statement. It appears to me that you are implying, that while in heaven, we will still have free will to choose.
Why would that be necessary?It is necessary because, say you want to visit Enoch's residence. You will have free will to choose that.


If right now there is good and evil to choose from, and if evil is eventually done completely away with, then what would there be to choose, since everything would be good?
Eze 28:17a Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty...

Apparently, we will be able to choose to lift our own hearts up.

Diolectic
Jan 8th 2009, 10:48 PM
You will never find free will in the Bible.Did you read it before you said this?
Knowing one must have fre will in order to choose, thare are many places where choice in evident.

Thgere are Scriptures which tell us that we must makw a concious "free will" choice in our actions, like to repent for example.
A
A "free will" choice to obey or disobey.

Thease are the evident verses that show us that "Free will" is in the Bible:
Exo 17:9 And Moses said unto Joshua, Choose us out men

Num 14:4 And they said one to another, Let us choose a leader

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth as witness this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live:

1Sa 17:8 And he stood and cried unto the armies of Israel, and said unto them, Why are you come out to set your battle in array? am not I a Philistine, and you servants to Saul? choose you a man for you, and let him come down to me.

2Sa 17:1 Moreover Ahithophel said unto Absalom, Let me now choose out twelve thousand men,

1Ki 18:23 Let them therefore give us two bullocks; and let them choose one bullock for themselves,

2Ki 10:3 Choose the best and fittest of your master’s sons

1Ch 21:10 Go and tell David, saying, Thus says the LORD, I offer you three things: choose you one of them,

Pro 1:29 Because they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

Pro 3:31 Envy you not the oppressor, and choose none of his ways.

Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good,

Isa 56:4 For thus says the LORD: Unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me,

Isa 65:12 you did not hear; but did evil before my eyes, and did choose that in which I delighted not.

Those who deny free will are only ignoring the evident fact.

Emanate
Jan 8th 2009, 10:48 PM
You will never find free will in the Bible.

Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

I Chronicles 21:9-11 And the LORD spake unto Gad, David's seer, saying, Go and tell David, saying, Thus saith the LORD, I offer thee three things: choose thee one of them, that I may do it unto thee. So Gad came to David, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Choose thee....

Isaiah 56:4,5 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

Diolectic
Jan 8th 2009, 11:02 PM
You will find where James tells us that "God willing, we will do this, or God willing we will do that".Those verses are so you will not do or think anything presumptuously when life is precarious.


Man can't even choose Christ (John 15:16)Man must choose Christ or die condemned!!
John 15:16 is Jesus talking to His 12 deciples in choosing them.


If man had free will, no one would be saved, for no one is righteous No one seeks God.Many choose to seek truth and find God in the prosess.
Every one that is of the truth hears my voice (Joh 18:37).
Those who love the truth will recieve it that they might be saved (2Thes 2:10).

Furthermore, no one needs to "be rightous" to do what is required.
Luk 17:10 So likewise you, when you shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

All mankind has a free will choice to make in the commad that all men everywhere must repent (Acts 17:30).

divaD
Jan 9th 2009, 12:57 AM
Man can't even choose Christ (John 15:16)



Perhaps you should try reading that from the perspective of John ch 13. Notice verse 18. IOW, start reading from there. You'll notice that He's specifically and personally speaking to His disciples, and instructing and warning them of many things.

John 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.

Clearly this is whom Jesus is referring to in John 15:16, His disciples. And He is letting us know that in John 13:18 that He didn't choose Judas.




If man had free will, no one would be saved, for no one is righteous No one seeks God.


Actually, you've got that backwards. If man didn't have free will, everyone would be saved according to 2 Peter 3:9. Why?

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


If the Lord is willing that not any should perish, yet some do perish anyway, then why isn't the Lord's will being fullfilled? None of us would assume that God is lying here, I would hope. So that means something is preventing everyone from being saved. That something is man himself, and his choices, that he freely chooses to make.

Here's how I understand free will. It means our God given right to choose. To choose what? To choose between right and wrong, good and evil, God and satan, eternal life or eternal death.

Adam and Eve are living proof that God gave man the free will to choose.
There is no way they could have been disobedient to God's command, had they not had free will to choose. Without the free will to choose, this then means it was entirely God's fault that they disobeyed Him. Personally, I will never believe that to be true nor will anyone be able to convince me it's true, because I know in my heart that it is not.

Sirus
Jan 9th 2009, 01:13 AM
Adam was not Immortal, that is why the Tree of life was needed.
Why do you think I said he was?I'm sorry! I misread what you said. Somehow I missed 'spiritual' in spiritual death. That's what I get for posting after driving for 16 hours. :B

Walstib
Jan 9th 2009, 01:16 AM
This is a great point and I want you to follow carefully what I am about to say.

Well I followed carefully, and it is logical.

Just built on a different foundation than I see. Thanks for taking the time to explain. Agreeing on freedom of thought would the place we differ.

Peace,
Joe

Sirus
Jan 9th 2009, 03:01 AM
Wasn't everything good when Satan did evil?Since when is good absolute perfection? If it is, how did Satan sin? Adam? It was good for God's plan of redemption implies imperfection, does it not?

reformedct
Jan 9th 2009, 03:42 AM
Did you read it before you said this?
Knowing one must have fre will in order to choose, thare are many places where choice in evident.

Thgere are Scriptures which tell us that we must makw a concious "free will" choice in our actions, like to repent for example.
A
A "free will" choice to obey or disobey.

Thease are the evident verses that show us that "Free will" is in the Bible:
Exo 17:9 And Moses said unto Joshua, Choose us out men

Num 14:4 And they said one to another, Let us choose a leader

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth as witness this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live:

1Sa 17:8 And he stood and cried unto the armies of Israel, and said unto them, Why are you come out to set your battle in array? am not I a Philistine, and you servants to Saul? choose you a man for you, and let him come down to me.

2Sa 17:1 Moreover Ahithophel said unto Absalom, Let me now choose out twelve thousand men,

1Ki 18:23 Let them therefore give us two bullocks; and let them choose one bullock for themselves,

2Ki 10:3 Choose the best and fittest of your master’s sons

1Ch 21:10 Go and tell David, saying, Thus says the LORD, I offer you three things: choose you one of them,

Pro 1:29 Because they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

Pro 3:31 Envy you not the oppressor, and choose none of his ways.

Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good,

Isa 56:4 For thus says the LORD: Unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me,

Isa 65:12 you did not hear; but did evil before my eyes, and did choose that in which I delighted not.

Those who deny free will are only ignoring the evident fact.


all this does is illustrate that we have the ability to make choices and that God demands us to choose what is right. However the Bible also says we are slaves to sin and dead in our tresspasses, and that our minds are hostile and cannot submit to the things of God.

Its both


We have "limited free will"

we make certain choices, but some things that God commands we cannot do without Him doing something in us. Jesus said be perfect as your Father is perfect. Does that mean that any human being whether saved or not just decide, Ok i choose to be perfect from here on out lol no. We choose as much as we are able to. We choose pepsi or coke, car or truck, but we cannot choose perfection. it is unatainable by ourselves. God must also do something in us to help us obey


Jesus said be perfect. Whats your point? Just because God demands something doesnt necisarily mean we can choose it apart from God enabling us to do so. Yes, the Bible teaches that we must choose. It also turns around and teaches that we are in bondage, and dead, hostile to God, enemies, desperately wicked, and thinkers of only evil continually

If you accept all Scripture you will see that man is demanded to choose God yet at the same time man is desperately wicked and hostile and his mind will not submit to God

its both

lets stop picking our personal favorite pile of verses that make us look good and accept the WHOLE BIBLE

the Bible says we must choose God and then it turns around and says we did not choose Him He chose us. Which one is it? People like to pick a team instead of just saying both. We must choose God, but it is He who has chosen us.

Its similar to faith/works

which is it? Its both. We are saved by faith but faith without works is dead and cannot save

Does man have free will or is he a slave

Its both. man can choose but at the same time he is a slave, thus left to himself will not choose to do the good that God commands. Because he is evil he will suppress the truth. For what is known of God is evident to him, so he is without excuse

The Bible commands us to choose right then turns around and says we will not lol its both its both its both

Gregg
Jan 9th 2009, 01:33 PM
Wouldn't you rather be a saved robot than a non saved free willer?

Sure, but those are not my choices. I would rather be a slave to Jesus than a slave to sin. So I choose to ask God to change me now and forevever. My choice is made my eternal salvation has started. Did God know what I would choose? Yes.

Thomas1621
Jan 9th 2009, 01:44 PM
Sure, but those are not my choices. I would rather be a slave to Jesus than a slave to sin. So I choose to ask God to change me now and forevever. My choice is made my eternal salvation has started. Did God know what I would choose? Yes.

the thing is God also knows what you will choose at various times in your future, but you do not. A person can not say for some reason or other they will not fall to sin and that the cause of that fall could never corrupt the heart of the fallen person. The key is as you said, "...your eternal salvation is started," but is never completed until your judgment.

Yukerboy
Jan 9th 2009, 01:50 PM
Those who deny free will are only ignoring the evident fact.


And those who define choose as our choosing denies God's sovereignty.

Gregg
Jan 9th 2009, 01:59 PM
And those who define choose as our choosing denies God's sovereignty.

What? God gives us the gift of free will and knows what we will do with it. It has no bearing on sovereignty or his plans. Just a side note: Can God choose to forget?

Yukerboy
Jan 9th 2009, 02:04 PM
Man must choose Christ or die condemned!!
John 15:16 is Jesus talking to His 12 deciples in choosing them.


Jesus is also talking to His 12 Disciples during all of John 15. Are we to say that does not apply to us too?

Don't kid yourself, God chose you, you didn't choose God (John 15:16)
You are part of the elect, whom He has chosen. (Mark 13:20)



All mankind has a free will choice to make in the commad that all men everywhere must repent (Acts 17:30).

Repentance itself is given by God. (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18)

I understand the desire to inject freewill into Scriptures, I don't do it, but I understand the desire.

Yukerboy
Jan 9th 2009, 02:23 PM
What? God gives us the gift of free will and knows what we will do with it. It has no bearing on sovereignty or his plans. Just a side note: Can God choose to forget?

God can do anything that so pleases Him.

God never gave us the gift of free will. I see a pile of gifts God promises to give in the Bible, but free will is NEVER there.

For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. (John 5:21)

Jesus gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.

You have 3 options (note this, Ken)

1. The verse is correct and Jesus gives life to everyone, thus universalism.
2. The verse is correct and Jesus is pleased to give life to only some.
3. The verse is translated incorrectly when it states "the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it"

So, let us knock out these options.

Let's assume there are those who will be condemned and therefore universalism is not an option.

That the leaves 2 and 3
To prove 3 right or wrong, let's look at some versions.

The NIV (which I used) states:
"the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it"

NASB - the Son also gives life to whom He wishes.
TM - The Son gives life to anyone he chooses
Amp - the Son also gives life to whomever He wills and is pleased to give it
NLT - the Son gives life to anyone he wants.
KJV - the Son quickeneth whom he will.
ESV - the Son gives life to whom he will.
CEV - the Son gives life to anyone he wants to.
NKJV - the Son gives life to whom He will.
NCV - the Son gives life to those he wants to.

Pleased, wishes, chooses, wants, wills, all of these are used. Not one time does it say "and man must choose...."

I don't thank God for making me smart enough to choose him, for making me more spiritual than others to choose Christ, for making me humble and then intelligent than the rest.

No, I thank God for choosing me. He could have not chose me, but He did, and I thank Him. I am born again not because of my desires or will, but because of God.

Gregg
Jan 9th 2009, 02:25 PM
Jesus is also talking to His 12 Disciples during all of John 15. Are we to say that does not apply to us too?

Don't kid yourself, God chose you, you didn't choose God (John 15:16)
You are part of the elect, whom He has chosen. (Mark 13:20)




Repentance itself is given by God. (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18)

I understand the desire to inject freewill into Scriptures, I don't do it, but I understand the desire.

Then what is the point? Without free will, you make God the creator of all of the evil, with man just being helpless pawns waiting his eternal fate. Your way suggests that God creates some for the purposes of eternal torture. Your way suggests that God is lying when he states that he desires all to be saved. Your way means that God is MAKING me write this to you, so why would he do that?

divaD
Jan 9th 2009, 02:27 PM
Don't kid yourself, God chose you, you didn't choose God (John 15:16)


So this then means that God chose the remaining ones(non elect) to go to hell, and that they never really did have a fair chance at being saved, because God never chose them for salvation in the first place. This is what I deduce from it. I don't see how that can be true tho, esp when God desires that no one would perish, and that all would come to repentance. I thought there was only one God, yet I see more than one God here. How could the same God contradict Himself so much? He can't nor does He, but it sure appears that He does, according to how some interpret Scriptures.

Gregg
Jan 9th 2009, 02:29 PM
God can do anything that so pleases Him.

God never gave us the gift of free will. I see a pile of gifts God promises to give in the Bible, but free will is NEVER there.

For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. (John 5:21)

Jesus gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.

You have 3 options (note this, Ken)

1. The verse is correct and Jesus gives life to everyone, thus universalism.
2. The verse is correct and Jesus is pleased to give life to only some.
3. The verse is translated incorrectly when it states "the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it"

So, let us knock out these options.

Let's assume there are those who will be condemned and therefore universalism is not an option.

That the leaves 2 and 3
To prove 3 right or wrong, let's look at some versions.

The NIV (which I used) states:
"the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it"

NASB - the Son also gives life to whom He wishes.
TM - The Son gives life to anyone he chooses
Amp - the Son also gives life to whomever He wills and is pleased to give it
NLT - the Son gives life to anyone he wants.
KJV - the Son quickeneth whom he will.
ESV - the Son gives life to whom he will.
CEV - the Son gives life to anyone he wants to.
NKJV - the Son gives life to whom He will.
NCV - the Son gives life to those he wants to.

Pleased, wishes, chooses, wants, wills, all of these are used. Not one time does it say "and man must choose...."

I don't thank God for making me smart enough to choose him, for making me more spiritual than others to choose Christ, for making me humble and then intelligent than the rest.

No, I thank God for choosing me. He could have not chose me, but He did, and I thank Him. I am born again not because of my desires or will, but because of God.

He is pleased to give the gift to those that freely choose to accept it. Ummm... what was that parable about the wedding and guests accepting invitations again?

Yukerboy
Jan 9th 2009, 02:38 PM
Then what is the point? Without free will, you make God the creator of all of the evil, with man just being helpless pawns waiting his eternal fate. Your way suggests that God creates some for the purposes of eternal torture.

I honestly don't know what the point is. I can try to explain and give you a hypothetical.

What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

I mean, it is a possibility.


Your way suggests that God is lying when he states that he desires all to be saved.

That may be, but then your way suggests God is lying when He says He gives life to whom it pleases Him to give it.

Both Scriptures are correct.

Look at the verse "He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. "

Who is the "you". The CHURCH! He doesn't want anybody from the church to perish. He wants everyone in the church to come to repentance...and seeing that God grants the church repentance, they do!

If it was man's free will, at least one of the Scriptures are wrong.


Your way means that God is MAKING me write this to you, so why would he do that?

See the post I made to Walstib earlier in this thread.

Yukerboy
Jan 9th 2009, 02:40 PM
So this then means that God chose the remaining ones(non elect) to go to hell, and that they never really did have a fair chance at being saved, because God never chose them for salvation in the first place. This is what I deduce from it. I don't see how that can be true tho, esp when God desires that no one would perish, and that all would come to repentance. I thought there was only one God, yet I see more than one God here. How could the same God contradict Himself so much? He can't nor does He, but it sure appears that He does, according to how some interpret Scriptures.


See post above. God wants no one from THE CHURCH to perish, and they won't.

God wants all those in THE CHURCH to come to repentance, and they will.

Yukerboy
Jan 9th 2009, 02:46 PM
He is pleased to give the gift to those that freely choose to accept it. Ummm... what was that parable about the wedding and guests accepting invitations again?


Let's look at the parable!

He invites people who did not come.
He then invites all the people they could find, both good and bad
He even says 'Go out to the roads and country lanes and make them come in
But then, a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes.
the king told the attendants, 'Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth

It did not please the King to give that man life.

"For many are invited, but few are chosen."

divaD
Jan 9th 2009, 02:53 PM
It is necessary because, say you want to visit Enoch's residence. You will have free will to choose that.


Ok. I can see your point. I was mainly curious as to how you came to your conclusions.

Also, I've read your posts in this thread, as well as in others. For the most part I would say that I agree with you most of the time. I was puzzled by a cpl of statements you made in this thread, simply wondering
if they were just your opininion, or if they were supported by Scripture. Other than that, I basically agree with most of what you have posted so far.


BTW, I did think that was a good point you made about the orphans and the killing of the small children. I'm not sure if that was why, but it does make sense. It seems to me they would have died anyway, if they had no one left to care for them, as in in providing food and shelter.

Diolectic
Jan 9th 2009, 02:57 PM
Those who deny free will are only ignoring the evident fact.And those who define choose as our choosing denies God's sovereignty.God's sovereignty:
Ultimate authority; ultimately, the One all creation is accountable to.

I do not deny God's sovereignty.

Yukerboy
Jan 9th 2009, 03:07 PM
To say that God is sovereign is to declare that He is the Most High, doing according to His will.

DivaD stated "I see more than one God here"

You have one God whose will will be done or you have another God whose will can be upended by man's will.

divaD
Jan 9th 2009, 03:29 PM
You have one God whose will will be done or you have another God whose will can be upended by man's will.

This is where the misunderstanding comes from. I for one don't deny that God is in control. But we can still resist God's will by being disobedient to His will. Adam and Eve proved that when they disobeyed God's commamndment. Otherwise we have to conclude that it was God's will that they would disobey Him, even tho He specifically warned them of the consequences if they did. That's nothing more than puppets on a string, and when the puppetmaster doesn't like what the puppet does, he punishes the puppets. (BTW, I remember markedward using this analogy in the past, I hope he doesn't mind that I also use it. I simply believe it makes a good point).

reformedct
Jan 9th 2009, 03:49 PM
The Bible is clear, not only is God highest authority, but He also DOES WHATEVER PLEASES HIM

He does things. He is in ultimate control of what goes on. SO if sin exists its because God allowed it, because God could put an end to it right now. Not saying God is bad, He hates all sin, but i am saying sovreignty means more than Him just being the one creation is accountable to. As seen with King Nebuchadnezzar, God has AND USES the power to make people do things. He made Nebuchadnezzar lose his mind and start eating grass. He stepped in and didnt allow Abimelech to be given an oppurtunity to sin with MOses wife. Even when people sin its because God "gave them over" to a debased mind, which means He also has the power not to give them over, as the Bible says "i will cause you to walk upright before me"

At the same time humans do have in a sense "free will". They have freedom to choose as they please. The problem is that Scripture also says that the mind of the natural man cannot submit to God, and many suppress the truth because of their unrighteousness.

However the Bible is also clear that God stirs people up to do whats right, as seen in the OT when He gave the people a spirit to finish building His temple.

To deny that God does not have control over how much sin happens is to deny his power. As if God is in heaven scratching His head trying to figure out how to stop evil doers. As if God does not work in the hearts of people and cause them to do good.

The Bible teaches both "free will" and the sovreign hand of God that influences people from the heart. Man has free will, but his will is hostile to God. He iss a hater of God. His heart is desperatly wicked. His "will" is to do evil. Everything apart from faith is sin, so even feeding the poor and all these things apart from faith is evil


We must choose God, but also if we have chosen God we must realize He chose us and that we did not choose Him.

reformedct
Jan 9th 2009, 03:53 PM
What? God gives us the gift of free will and knows what we will do with it. It has no bearing on sovereignty or his plans. Just a side note: Can God choose to forget?


so if God knows what we will do, you agree that God makes people that He knows wont choose Him. right?

He creates human beings that He knows will go to hell right? so let me ask you, why does God create people who will never choose Him? whats the point?

alethos
Jan 9th 2009, 04:05 PM
In the beginning, after Adam sinned, God thought to Himself:
"For this reason (Adam's sin) I will give the rest of mankind a nature that causes them to do that which I hate."
"This nature which I give them will make it impossible for mankind to obey my commands, but I will condemn them anyway."
"They will be condemned for that which is inevitable (sin)"

Concerning that which HE reviels Himself in His Scriptures:*
God will do things that would be deemed as sadistically tyranical in human terms, but just because He is God, He is be justified in doing such things."

"If any happen to question Him (God) about these injustices, 'You will say then unto (Him), Why does he yet find fault? For who has resisted his will?
Nay but, O man, who are you that replies against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why have you made me thus?" (Rom 9:19-20)*


*mis-interpreting the Scriptures

Ah, the mysteries of God.

It is believed that our sin nature is not something given to us by God Himself, but rather inherited through our first parents. I guess it could be compared with other characteristics which are handed down to us through our parents.

I' sure people have heard of our "inherited sin nature"

.

Friend of I AM
Jan 9th 2009, 04:10 PM
so if God knows what we will do, you agree that God makes people that He knows wont choose Him. right?

He creates human beings that He knows will go to hell right? so let me ask you, why does God create people who will never choose Him? whats the point?

Scriptures state that you did not choose me but I chose you and that we love him because he first loved us. Our choice is more of a response to the grace given through Christ, thus it really is never really entirely our choice to begin with. I think this gives one a freeing feeling, of realizing that they have little control of their destiny despite what choices they believe they have made on their own, and are at the mercy of God at all points within their walk.

Diolectic
Jan 9th 2009, 04:13 PM
However the Bible also says we are slaves to sinRom 6:16 Know you not, that to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are to whom you obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?


and dead in our tresspassesDead, is an alagory; Since "life" is knowing the Father throught Christ (John 6:35, 48, 51, 10:10, 11:25, 14:16, 17:3), then death is not knowing God or not having a relationship with Christ. Therefore, dead in our tresspasses means that we were not knowing God in our sins.
Aslo, “dead” in relation to that which we afterward became alive to. Christ made us alive together with Christ (Eph 2:1, Col 2:1), being dead to sins, we should live unto righteousness (1Peter 2:24).


that our minds are hostile and cannot submit to the things of God.Our minds were hosyile by choice, and would not (NOT can not) to the things of God.

We have "limited free will"


we make certain choices, but some things that God commands we cannot do without Him doing something in us. Jesus said be perfect as your Father is perfect.That word "perfect" means mature or complete; as in meating all the requirements, thoroughly furnished unto all good works (2Tim 3:17)


Does that mean that any human being whether saved or not just decide, Ok i choose to be perfect from here on out lol no. We choose as much as we are able to. We choose pepsi or coke, car or truck, but we cannot choose perfection.Then why are we told to "be perfect"; Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
:15 Let us therefore, as many who wants to be perfect, be thus minded...
It is up to us to want to be perfect by being of the same mind as Paul.



it is unatainable by ourselves.Scriptures never say that.


God must also do something in us to help us obeyYes, to HELP us, nopt to give us the ability.
That Help is His Spirit.



Jesus said be perfect. Whats your point? Just because God demands something doesnt necisarily mean we can choose it apart from God enabling us to do so.Yes it does.
It is redicul;ous to comand that wich is imposible or not available.
God commands the world to repent, only a sadistic tyrant would command and not give the means to compliy.
As Pharaoh commanded more bricks, but cut off the suply of hey to make the bricks, so would God be if He commands and does not give the means of complyance..


Yes, the Bible teaches that we must choose. It also turns around and teaches that we are in bondage, and dead, hostile to God, enemies, desperately wicked, and thinkers of only evil continuallyThat would mena your interpretation of being "in bondage, and dead, hostile to God, enemies, desperately wicked, and thinkers of only evil continually" is wrong.


If you accept all Scripture you will see that man is demanded to choose God yet at the same time man is desperately wicked and hostile and his mind will not submit to GodI do accept all Scripture and I interpret it all correctly so that there is no contradictions.

I noticed that youy said "will not submit" in contrast to "can not submit".
Sure, we will not untill we are persuaded to.


lets stop picking our personal favorite pile of verses that make us look good and accept the WHOLE BIBLEAmen!!!
Let's start interpreting the Scripturs correctly.


the Bible says we must choose God and then it turns around and says we did not choose Him He chose us.He chose us for eternal life because He foreknew that we would accept the offer.


Which one is it? People like to pick a team instead of just saying both. We must choose God, but it is He who has chosen us.He calls everyone, but only those who will can have eternal life.


Does man have free will or is he a slaveHe is a slave that must choose which master to yield to (Romans 6:16).


Its both. man can choose but at the same time he is a slave, thus left to himself will not choose to do the good that God commands.He will not untill he is persuaded to.


The Bible commands us to choose right then turns around and says we will not lol its both its both its bothRom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
The reason that the will not is because they are not persauded to do so.

reformedct
Jan 9th 2009, 04:16 PM
This is where the misunderstanding comes from. I for one don't deny that God is in control. But we can still resist God's will by being disobedient to His will. Adam and Eve proved that when they disobeyed God's commamndment. Otherwise we have to conclude that it was God's will that they would disobey Him, even tho He specifically warned them of the consequences if they did. That's nothing more than puppets on a string, and when the puppetmaster doesn't like what the puppet does, he punishes the puppets. (BTW, I remember markedward using this analogy in the past, I hope he doesn't mind that I also use it. I simply believe it makes a good point).


As i said earlier its both. We can resist his will but we also cannot resist his will. Sometimes God allows people to resist the Spirit, suppress the truth, and sometimes God moves on a persons heart and changes them. God does allow people to resist his will, but He is allowing them to do that. If he wanted to bust through their hard heart and give them a new one he can and does do that.

The Bible teaches both. We can sometimes resist His will and at other times we cannot. For example Esau had no power or ability whatsoever to hold to his birthright. Before they did anything good or bad, God declared the older would serve the younger. He didnt look into the future and say, I see Esau will give up his birthright. The Scripture is clear that God declared that the older would serve the younger BEFORE THEY HAD DONE ANYTHING.

so we see it is both. Sometimes God gives us over to a debased mind and lets us reject Him, suppress the truth, and disobey Him and resist His will. Other times, He does whatever the heck he wants, as seen when He made Nebuchaddnezar lose his mind and start eating grass. Just imagine if God never gave him his right mind back? He would not have been able to "choose" to worship God or anything.

So it is both. We can resist His will and we cannot. NOw, if we know that ultimately we cannot resist his will, as the Bible says, then when someone resists God, is it not His will that they get exactly what they want?

alethos
Jan 9th 2009, 04:16 PM
We must choose God, but also if we have chosen God we must realize He chose us and that we did not choose Him.

Lets see
1. We choose God
2. we did not choose Him

Sounds like circular reasoning to me.

.

Diolectic
Jan 9th 2009, 04:17 PM
Ah, the mysteries of God.

It is believed that our sin nature is not something given to us by God Himself, but rather inherited through our first parents. I guess it could be compared with other characteristics which are handed down to us through our parents.Yah, but God is the One who would have Inaugurated the fact that a nature which He hates and causes mankind to hate Him is "inherited".

Therefore, it is ultimatly something given to us by God; if it is real.

reformedct
Jan 9th 2009, 04:23 PM
Let me ask you guys this question. what was the purpose of the law as described in Romans

Diolectic
Jan 9th 2009, 04:23 PM
To say that God is sovereign is to declare that He is the Most High, doing according to His will.Not everthing is God's will, therefore, everything that happens is not God's doing.


You have one God whose will will be done or you have another God whose will can be upended by man's will.Yep, God's will is to have a creation with no sin.
His will is "upended" by mans will to sin.

God commanded (willed) Pharaoh to free Israel, Pharaoh "upended" God's will (command) by hardening his heart (1Sam 6:6).

reformedct
Jan 9th 2009, 04:25 PM
Not everthing is God's will, therefore, everything that happens is not God's doing.

Yep, God's will is to have a creation with no sin.
His will is "upended" by mans will to sin.

God commanded (willed) Pharaoh to free Israel, Pharaoh "upended" God's will (command) by hardening his heart (1Sam 6:6).


Quick question. What was the purpose of the law as described in Romans

alethos
Jan 9th 2009, 04:29 PM
Yah, but God is the One who would have Inaugurated the fact that a nature which He hates and causes mankind to hate Him is "inherited".

Therefore, it is ultimatly something given to us by God; if it is real.

Ok, but then the question in my mind is this ........

Did God cause mankind to sin, or did mankind choose to sin, which resulted in acquiring his sin nature?

.

Diolectic
Jan 9th 2009, 04:34 PM
Let me ask you guys this question. what was the purpose of the law as described in RomansThe entered, that the offense would be seen as so very great. So where transgression abounded, grace did much more abound because, they saw there offense to be as so very great in contrast of the law (Romans 5:20).

The Law exists for the reason of making unlawful affections to be evidently unlawful. It made death to be evident within us by that which is good; In other words, the Law exist so that our unlawful affections would be evidently more wicked in contrast to the specific commandments (Romans 7:13)

Diolectic
Jan 9th 2009, 04:38 PM
Ok, but then the question in my mind is this ........

Did God cause mankind to sin, or did mankind choose to sin, which resulted in acquiring his sin nature?.Aperently, God causes mankind to sin by giving us a sin nature.
People always say because of our so called "sin nature" we can not NOT sin, sin is unavoidable, inevitable, imposible to avoid; we can't repent unless God gives us the ability, we can't have faith untill God gives it to us....ect...

alethos
Jan 9th 2009, 04:42 PM
Aperently, God causes mankind to sin by giving us a sin nature.


I gotta ask

What Scripture would you use to support that statement?

.

divaD
Jan 9th 2009, 04:44 PM
As i said earlier its both. We can resist his will but we also cannot resist his will. Sometimes God allows people to resist the Spirit, suppress the truth, and sometimes God moves on a persons heart and changes them. God does allow people to resist his will, but He is allowing them to do that. If he wanted to bust through their hard heart and give them a new one he can and does do that.

The Bible teaches both. We can sometimes resist His will and at other times we cannot. For example Esau had no power or ability whatsoever to hold to his birthright. Before they did anything good or bad, God declared the older would serve the younger. He didnt look into the future and say, I see Esau will give up his birthright. The Scripture is clear that God declared that the older would serve the younger BEFORE THEY HAD DONE ANYTHING.

so we see it is both. Sometimes God gives us over to a debased mind and lets us reject Him, suppress the truth, and disobey Him and resist His will. Other times, He does whatever the heck he wants, as seen when He made Nebuchaddnezar lose his mind and start eating grass. Just imagine if God never gave him his right mind back? He would not have been able to "choose" to worship God or anything.

So it is both. We can resist His will and we cannot. NOw, if we know that ultimately we cannot resist his will, as the Bible says, then when someone resists God, is it not His will that they get exactly what they want?


Hi reformedct. This is very good post. I appreciete the way you reason things here. While some might find this statement contradictory "We can resist his will but we also cannot resist his will", I can see where you're coming from, thus I understand your point.

The thing that seems to bother me the most, and this is according to how some folks interpret Scriptures, it just appears that they are blaming God for everything. When I read Gen ch 3, I see that it was the serpent that caused the fall of man. So does that mean God intended for it to happen? Not necessarrily, but I can see where God allowed it to happen, but just that He didn't cause it to happen.

alethos
Jan 9th 2009, 05:05 PM
"We can resist his will

we cannot resist his will"

I use to be indecisive, but now I'm not sure.

.

Diolectic
Jan 9th 2009, 05:44 PM
Aperently, God causes mankind to sin by giving us a sin nature.
I gotta ask

What Scripture would you use to support that statement?.None at all, because sin nature is not in the Bible. Therefore, what ever conclusion anyone comes up with against it is purely commone sense.

divaD
Jan 9th 2009, 05:50 PM
I use to be indecisive, but now I'm not sure.

.


LOL. I see your point.

Gregg
Jan 9th 2009, 05:54 PM
so if God knows what we will do, you agree that God makes people that He knows wont choose Him. right?

He creates human beings that He knows will go to hell right? so let me ask you, why does God create people who will never choose Him? whats the point?

Yes I agree that God knows what we will choose.

God creates people knowing that some will reject him and choose hell because without choice there is no love. If I am forced to confess I love you or actually brainwashed, hynotized, or created with no ability to choose, I do not love. If I have a choice and choose you, there is love. The whole Bible screams of choosing the gift that The Saviour gives.

BrckBrln
Jan 9th 2009, 06:10 PM
because without choice there is no love.

So I guess we won't love God in heaven, then?

Or you can say that we can sin in heaven. You can't say you won't though because if it's happened before and nothing has changed then it can and probably will happen again.

Yukerboy
Jan 9th 2009, 06:21 PM
This is where the misunderstanding comes from. I for one don't deny that God is in control.

Good!


But we can still resist God's will by being disobedient to His will. Adam and Eve proved that when they disobeyed God's commamndment.

Now, this is an assumption.

You are saying that God commanded them not to eat the fruit of the tree. They ate the fruit of the tree. Therefore, they were disobdeient to His will.

I say that God gave them the commandment knowing and even planning on them disobeying. They were disobedient to God's command, but they were not disobedient to His will.

Paul echoes this when he states "The law was added so that the trespass might increase." and "when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died."

Without the command, there could be no sin, and without sin, there could be no grace.


Otherwise we have to conclude that it was God's will that they would disobey Him, even tho He specifically warned them of the consequences if they did.

God bless you! Yes, that would be the conclusion we would have to make.


That's nothing more than puppets on a string, and when the puppetmaster doesn't like what the puppet does, he punishes the puppets. (BTW, I remember markedward using this analogy in the past, I hope he doesn't mind that I also use it. I simply believe it makes a good point).

Agreed. It's a rather blunt way of putting it, but I can't argue against that.

Yukerboy
Jan 9th 2009, 06:25 PM
Not everthing is God's will, therefore, everything that happens is not God's doing.

That's as Scriptural as me saying everything is God's will, therefore, everything that happens is God's doing.



Yep, God's will is to have a creation with no sin.
His will is "upended" by mans will to sin.


God will have a creation with no sin.

God's will has never been upended by man's will.


God commanded (willed) Pharaoh to free Israel, Pharaoh "upended" God's will (command) by hardening his heart (1Sam 6:6).

Do not mistake a commandment for will and do not mistake the hardening of Pharoah's heart as not being in God's will.

Gregg
Jan 9th 2009, 06:25 PM
So I guess we won't love God in heaven, then?

Or you can say that we can sin in heaven. You can't say you won't though because if it's happened before and nothing has changed then it can and probably will happen again.

This has been covered by others in this thread. There is no sin in heaven, no evil to choose. My choices will all be good ones, it is one of the things that make Heaven, Heaven. That and that God will finish healing me.

BrckBrln
Jan 9th 2009, 06:29 PM
This has been covered by others in this thread. There is no sin in heaven, no evil to choose. My choices will all be good ones, it is one of the things that make Heaven, Heaven. That and that God will finish healing me.

Well since there is no sin in heaven and no choice to sin against God, then how can you truly love Him?

Yukerboy
Jan 9th 2009, 06:46 PM
People always say because of our so called "sin nature" we can not NOT sin, sin is unavoidable, inevitable, imposible to avoid; we can't repent unless God gives us the ability, we can't have faith untill God gives it to us....ect...

Nah, not people....Scripture.

All have sinned....therefore we know it is unavoidable. If even one person goes through life without sin, then God lied.

God grants repentance. That is in 1 Timothy and Acts. If one person repents without God granting it to him, then God lied.

As for faith, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Who gives us ears to hear?

you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God.

Yuke

Diolectic
Jan 9th 2009, 06:57 PM
God's will has never been upended by man's will. Yes it was, God willed for Adam not to sin, what happend?




Do not mistake a commandment for willWhy would God command that which is not His will?


and do not mistake the hardening of Pharoah's heart as not being in God's will.Why would God willingly cause something contrary to His will?

Diolectic
Jan 9th 2009, 07:18 PM
Nah, not people....Scripture.What Scripture?


All have sinned....therefore we know it is unavoidable.It is sadistically tyrannical to condemn anyone for that which is unavoidable.


If even one person goes through life without sin, then God lied.Have you considered God's servant Job? There wass none like him in the earth, a blameless and an upright man, one that fears God, and turned away from evil(Job 1:8, 2:3).

Job 23:10 But he knows the way that I take: when He (GOD) has tested me, I shall come forth as gold.
:11 My foot has held fast to his steps, his way have I kept, and not turned aside.
:12 Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food.
Job 31:6 let God weigh me in honest scales and he will know that I am blameless
Job 31:35 "Oh, that I had someone to hear me! I sign now my defense--let the Almighty answer me; let my accuser put his indictment in writing.
:36 Surely I would wear it on my shoulder, I would put it on like a crown.
:37 I would give him an account of my every step; like a prince I would approach him.
Job 33:8 "But you (Job) have said in my hearing-- I heard the very words--
:9 'I am pure and without sin; I am clean and free from guilt.


God grants repentance. That is in 1 Timothy and Acts. If one person repents without God granting it to him, then God lied.
Then if it is up to God to give repentance before any one can repent, then God condemns people for that which He did not give.
God condemns people because He did not give them repentance.
James 4:17 Therefore to him that knows to do good, and does it not, to him it is sin.
Since it is God to give mankind repentnce & faith, & it is in His power to give, then it is a sin for God not to.


As for faith, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Who gives us ears to hear?Where does it say that God gives us ears to hear?
We are to choose to have ears to hear.


you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God.Yes, we have chose to put our faith in & on what Christ has said & done.
All mankind are able to believe that too.

All mankind has faith in one thing or another, they must choose to put their faith towards that which we do.

Gregg
Jan 9th 2009, 07:18 PM
Well since there is no sin in heaven and no choice to sin against God, then how can you truly love Him?

My choice has been made. It is made here not in Heaven.

Thomas1621
Jan 9th 2009, 08:19 PM
Jesus is also talking to His 12 Disciples during all of John 15. Are we to say that does not apply to us too?

Don't kid yourself, God chose you, you didn't choose God (John 15:16)
You are part of the elect, whom He has chosen. (Mark 13:20)




Repentance itself is given by God. (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18)

I understand the desire to inject freewill into Scriptures, I don't do it, but I understand the desire.

You are misunderstanding what the verses are referring to. Repentance is to be sorry for sin with self-condemnation. The verses you quoted are speaking of God forgiving them and relieving them of self condemnation in those circumstances.
If it were all up to God to provide repentance without a person repenting or suffering the sorrow for their sins as described, why would Jesus Himself followed by the apostles in their ministry exclaim to all to repent, for the kingdom of God all through the Gospel. This is the heart of the message.

2 Timothy CH 2
23 Avoid foolish and ignorant debates, for you know that they breed quarrels. 24 A slave of the Lord should not quarrel, but should be gentle with everyone, able to teach, tolerant, 25 correcting opponents with kindness. It may be that God will grant them repentance that leads to knowledge of the truth, 26 6 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$4RM) and that they may return to their senses out of the devil's snare, where they are entrapped by him, for his will.
This verse discusses how one should be and should present himself which would not be necessary if it were not a matter of will to follow these directions.
12 The Spirit told me to accompany them without discriminating. These six brothers 3 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$427) also went with me, and we entered the man's house. 13 He related to us how he had seen (the) angel standing in his house, saying, 'Send someone to Joppa and summon Simon, who is called Peter, 14 who will speak words to you by which you and all your household will be saved.' 15 As I began to speak, the holy Spirit fell upon them as it had upon us at the beginning, 16 and I remembered the word of the Lord, how he had said, 'John baptized with water but you will be baptized with the holy Spirit.' 17 If then God gave them the same gift he gave to us when we came to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to be able to hinder God?" 18 When they heard this, they stopped objecting and glorified God, saying, "God has then granted life-giving repentance to the Gentiles too."
Again, this verse shows all have free will and decisions had to be made in each of their situations. They accepted willingly the word of God as repeated to them and rejoiced to God for the gentiles who desired to follow His word.

Yukerboy
Jan 9th 2009, 08:28 PM
Yes it was, God willed for Adam not to sin, what happend?

God willed that Adam sin. Adam sinned.


Why would God command that which is not His will?

So that sin and then grace may exist.


Why would God willingly cause something contrary to His will?

Contrary to His commandments, not contrary to His will.


It is sadistically tyrannical to condemn anyone for that which is unavoidable.

You are entitled to your opinion.

My opinion is that it is justifibly holy.

All have sinned (This is unavoidable). The wages of that which is unavoidable is death and condemnation. Is God unjust? Why does He blame us, for who can resist his will? Does not the potter have the right to make vessels for one purpose and vessels for another purpose out of the same clay?


Have you considered God's servant Job? There wass none like him in the earth, a blameless and an upright man, one that fears God, and turned away from evil(Job 1:8, 2:3).

Job 23:10 But he knows the way that I take: when He (GOD) has tested me, I shall come forth as gold.
:11 My foot has held fast to his steps, his way have I kept, and not turned aside.
:12 Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food.
Job 31:6 let God weigh me in honest scales and he will know that I am blameless
Job 31:35 "Oh, that I had someone to hear me! I sign now my defense--let the Almighty answer me; let my accuser put his indictment in writing.
:36 Surely I would wear it on my shoulder, I would put it on like a crown.
:37 I would give him an account of my every step; like a prince I would approach him.
Job 33:8 "But you (Job) have said in my hearing-- I heard the very words--
:9 'I am pure and without sin; I am clean and free from guilt.

Did Job ever commit sin? Did Job turn away from evil, or was he righteous from birth?


Then if it is up to God to give repentance before any one can repent, then God condemns people for that which He did not give.
God condemns people because He did not give them repentance.

Amen!


James 4:17 Therefore to him that knows to do good, and does it not, to him it is sin.
Since it is God to give mankind repentnce & faith, & it is in His power to give, then it is a sin for God not to.

Does James talk to men or to to God here?

It is good that God does not grant some repentance. Why? Because God does it, and He is good.

It is good that the Israelites were told to murder babies and infants. Why? Because God told them to and He is good.

It is good that Hitler became chancellor of Germany. Why? Because God put him there and God is good.


Where does it say that God gives us ears to hear?
We are to choose to have ears to hear.

Just as it is written: “ God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear,To this very day.”


Yes, we have chose to put our faith in & on what Christ has said & done.
All mankind are able to believe that too.

All mankind has faith in one thing or another, they must choose to put their faith towards that which we do.

That is very difficult, even impossible without first God giving them fiath, which is a gift from God.

No one knows the Father except those Christ chose to reveal Him to.

Yukerboy
Jan 9th 2009, 08:31 PM
You are misunderstanding what the verses are referring to. Repentance is to be sorry for sin with self-condemnation. The verses you quoted are speaking of God forgiving them and relieving them of self condemnation in those circumstances.
If it were all up to God to provide repentance without a person repenting or suffering the sorrow for their sins as described, why would Jesus Himself followed by the apostles in their ministry exclaim to all to repent, for the kingdom of God all through the Gospel. This is the heart of the message.

2 Timothy CH 2
23 Avoid foolish and ignorant debates, for you know that they breed quarrels. 24 A slave of the Lord should not quarrel, but should be gentle with everyone, able to teach, tolerant, 25 correcting opponents with kindness. It may be that God will grant them repentance that leads to knowledge of the truth, 26 6 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$4RM) and that they may return to their senses out of the devil's snare, where they are entrapped by him, for his will.
This verse discusses how one should be and should present himself which would not be necessary if it were not a matter of will to follow these directions.
12 The Spirit told me to accompany them without discriminating. These six brothers 3 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$427) also went with me, and we entered the man's house. 13 He related to us how he had seen (the) angel standing in his house, saying, 'Send someone to Joppa and summon Simon, who is called Peter, 14 who will speak words to you by which you and all your household will be saved.' 15 As I began to speak, the holy Spirit fell upon them as it had upon us at the beginning, 16 and I remembered the word of the Lord, how he had said, 'John baptized with water but you will be baptized with the holy Spirit.' 17 If then God gave them the same gift he gave to us when we came to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to be able to hinder God?" 18 When they heard this, they stopped objecting and glorified God, saying, "God has then granted life-giving repentance to the Gentiles too."
Again, this verse shows all have free will and decisions had to be made in each of their situations. They accepted willingly the word of God as repeated to them and rejoiced to God for the gentiles who desired to follow His word.


One thing I don't see is willingly, but one theme through out the passages are "God gave, God has given, God has then granted"

Partaker of Christ
Jan 9th 2009, 09:07 PM
He is pleased to give the gift to those that freely choose to accept it. Ummm... what was that parable about the wedding and guests accepting invitations again?

Hi Gregg!

I think as has been said, that we are given a limited will. Like we can only have the choice when we are given the choice (if today you hear His voice).

If you have a sickness, or disease, or blindness, or deafness, or injury etc:

Can you exercise your fee will over these things, and say 'I refuse to accept you'?
These things are a result of sin, and death is a result of sin.

Are we going to say that sin, death and sickness, have more dominion over us, then the Almighty God?

John146
Jan 9th 2009, 09:34 PM
I don't deny this (in a way), but, then, why isn't everybody saved?Because not everyone chooses to repent and believe. Instead, they choose to reject the gospel.

Rom 10
13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

2 Thess 2
9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Isaiah 66 3He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.
4I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 9th 2009, 09:47 PM
Yah, but God is the One who would have Inaugurated the fact that a nature which He hates and causes mankind to hate Him is "inherited".

Therefore, it is ultimatly something given to us by God; if it is real.

Are you saying, it would have been preferred it if God, had compromised His Holiness?

John146
Jan 9th 2009, 09:50 PM
Jesus is also talking to His 12 Disciples during all of John 15. Are we to say that does not apply to us too?

Don't kid yourself, God chose you, you didn't choose God (John 15:16)
You are part of the elect, whom He has chosen. (Mark 13:20)You're forgetting something here. Judas Iscariot was one of the 12 disciples. Are you going to try to say he was chosen to salvation?

Yukerboy
Jan 9th 2009, 11:30 PM
You're forgetting something here. Judas Iscariot was one of the 12 disciples. Are you going to try to say he was chosen to salvation?

You are right. I did forget. He was talking to the 11 disciples.

John 13:18 “I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me

John 13:30 he (Judas) then went out immediately. And it was night.

divaD
Jan 10th 2009, 01:59 AM
You are right. I did forget. He was talking to the 11 disciples.

John 13:18 “I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me

John 13:30 he (Judas) then went out immediately. And it was night.



Yes...and He was still talking to those same 11 in chapter 15 of that same book, especially verse 16. http://bibleforums.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

Yukerboy
Jan 10th 2009, 02:07 AM
Yes...and He was still talking to those same 11 in chapter 15 of that same book, especially verse 16. http://bibleforums.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

You are right. If we wish to infer exclusivity to the 11, then "My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you." does not apply to us, or "This is my command: Love each other." or "When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father" was coming only to the 11. I won't pick and choose which verses should apply.

Thomas1621
Jan 10th 2009, 03:31 AM
One thing I don't see is willingly, but one theme through out the passages are "God gave, God has given, God has then granted"

What you are acknowledging is you are seeing all that is given but none of what is asked of you then. All is asked of you and yet it is nothing compared to what was sacraficed....

Yukerboy
Jan 10th 2009, 03:40 AM
What you are acknowledging is you are seeing all that is given but none of what is asked of you then. All is asked of you and yet it is nothing compared to what was sacraficed....

Agreed. Yet all of you is God's. It's not so much that you give all of you, God takes all of you.

Thomas1621
Jan 10th 2009, 03:53 AM
Agreed. Yet all of you is God's. It's not so much that you give all of you, God takes all of you.

It is more God accepts all of you when you offer yourself to Him. God never stops loving you but He hates the sin. Just as our heavenly Father chose the Jews, those who voluntarily turned their backs on Him He allowed to follow the path of their choosing and although they had been already chosen, many had to pay the last penny for their sins and others did not make it out of the darkness... They were the chosen, they chose and they were judged accordingly. If the NT is read without the unnecessary distorted interpretations place on what is in reality direct divine guidance, it is clear the choice remains ours. These verses are not parables that have to be decoded. The fear we are to have of God should not be a fear of retribution but a fear of hurting one we devoutly love.

EarlyCall
Jan 10th 2009, 01:17 PM
I've seen some postings that deny free will and the claim that acknowledging free will denies God's sovereignty.

I think that claim denies logic and reality and the word of God itself.

When God commanded Adam and Eve to not eat from the one tree, immediately God gave them both a choice. Two things to note here: every day they did not eat from the tree, they did so because they chose not to, and the day they did eat from the tree, they did so because they chose to.

At one point God said, "Choose you this day life or death..." Isn't it odd that God should play such mind games with people telling them to make a choice when all along they really had no choice at all? It would be odd and disconcerting if that was truly the case.

Throughout God's word we see people making good and bad, right and wrong choices. God said of David, more than once that David did all God wanted him to do except that one thing with Uriah and Bathsheba.

Isn't that evidence we can go against the very will of God? Is it God's will that we should sin? I would not dare to even suggest such a vile thing concerning God. His word tells us otherwise.

Hosea 8:4 clearly says the Jews chose leaders that God did not approve of nor appoint. Yet one more example of free will exercised in choice contrary to God's will, His desire and His preference.

God's sovereignty is never defeated by man's choices. God said what He has purposed in His heart cannot be thwarted. But God's sovereignty is greater than our free will and our choices.

To claim man has no free will denies not only logic and reality but also the very word of god and its many real life examples of free will played out in the characters presented to us.

Without free will, one is not capable of loving God. It is not love when one has no choice. Jesus chose to die for us - God did not force Him to do so. This is the heart and mind of a loving god and He desires the same in return from us - freely chosen giving of our love to Him. It is in fact the only kind He recognizes. In truth and in spirit.

Yukerboy
Jan 10th 2009, 01:36 PM
It is more God accepts all of you when you offer yourself to Him. God never stops loving you but He hates the sin. Just as our heavenly Father chose the Jews, those who voluntarily turned their backs on Him He allowed to follow the path of their choosing and although they had been already chosen, many had to pay the last penny for their sins and others did not make it out of the darkness... They were the chosen, they chose and they were judged accordingly. If the NT is read without the unnecessary distorted interpretations place on what is in reality direct divine guidance, it is clear the choice remains ours. These verses are not parables that have to be decoded. The fear we are to have of God should not be a fear of retribution but a fear of hurting one we devoutly love.

When Christ said fear God, what characteristic of God did He use, hurting the one we love, or fear the one that can destroy both body and soul?

Gregg
Jan 10th 2009, 01:41 PM
"Likewise I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth." Luke 15:10.

If who ever has the joy (be it angels or God) knew that the repentence was not a choice there would be no joy. There would be "well that's how they were created anyway."

Gregg
Jan 10th 2009, 01:54 PM
I've seen some postings that deny free will and the claim that acknowledging free will denies God's sovereignty.

I think that claim denies logic and reality and the word of God itself.

When God commanded Adam and Eve to not eat from the one tree, immediately God gave them both a choice. Two things to note here: every day they did not eat from the tree, they did so because they chose not to, and the day they did eat from the tree, they did so because they chose to.

At one point God said, "Choose you this day life or death..." Isn't it odd that God should play such mind games with people telling them to make a choice when all along they really had no choice at all? It would be odd and disconcerting if that was truly the case.

Throughout God's word we see people making good and bad, right and wrong choices. God said of David, more than once that David did all God wanted him to do except that one thing with Uriah and Bathsheba.

Isn't that evidence we can go against the very will of God? Is it God's will that we should sin? I would not dare to even suggest such a vile thing concerning God. His word tells us otherwise.

Hosea 8:4 clearly says the Jews chose leaders that God did not approve of nor appoint. Yet one more example of free will exercised in choice contrary to God's will, His desire and His preference.

God's sovereignty is never defeated by man's choices. God said what He has purposed in His heart cannot be thwarted. But God's sovereignty is greater than our free will and our choices.

To claim man has no free will denies not only logic and reality but also the very word of god and its many real life examples of free will played out in the characters presented to us.

Without free will, one is not capable of loving God. It is not love when one has no choice. Jesus chose to die for us - God did not force Him to do so. This is the heart and mind of a loving god and He desires the same in return from us - freely chosen giving of our love to Him. It is in fact the only kind He recognizes. In truth and in spirit.

Yes! I would further add that God's will and desire, could be two different things. He wills us to have free will, but desires (not forces) us to use it to choose him. I would also add that nothing that we can do or choose alters God's plan. My choices do not even make God hesitate. He knows what each human will choose and uses that in his plan. I think that is why we feel so blessed when our will comes in alignment with God's will. I also think that we cannot confuse that God allows evil in this world with creating it.

Yukerboy
Jan 10th 2009, 01:59 PM
I've seen some postings that deny free will and the claim that acknowledging free will denies God's sovereignty.

I think that claim denies logic and reality and the word of God itself.

When God commanded Adam and Eve to not eat from the one tree, immediately God gave them both a choice. Two things to note here: every day they did not eat from the tree, they did so because they chose not to, and the day they did eat from the tree, they did so because they chose to.


Sin did not spring to life when they ate of the tree. Sin sprang to life when the command was given to them.



At one point God said, "Choose you this day life or death..." Isn't it odd that God should play such mind games with people telling them to make a choice when all along they really had no choice at all? It would be odd and disconcerting if that was truly the case.

Are we now to call Joshua God? Jesus talks alot about Him doing the choosing, but never does He use choose as an act we can take.


Throughout God's word we see people making good and bad, right and wrong choices. God said of David, more than once that David did all God wanted him to do except that one thing with Uriah and Bathsheba.

Throughout the Bible we see people doing good or bad just as God foreknew and foreordained.


Isn't that evidence we can go against the very will of God?

How prideful is man that he can believe He can upend God's will?


Is it God's will that we should sin?

Why did God give the command if He knew sin would spring to life?
Paul even tells us that God put the law in place so that sin would increase. The will of God was that we should sin, beyond a shadow of a doubt.


I would not dare to even suggest such a vile thing concerning God. His word tells us otherwise.

Really? God, by doing His will, is just and good.


Hosea 8:4 clearly says the Jews chose leaders that God did not approve of nor appoint. Yet one more example of free will exercised in choice contrary to God's will, His desire and His preference.

Hosea 8:4 states "4They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not"

Now, if you truly believe these words are literal, then you believe in a God that doesn't know everything.

Our God knows everything.

And as God said through Paul "Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God."


God's sovereignty is never defeated by man's choices. God said what He has purposed in His heart cannot be thwarted. But God's sovereignty is greater than our free will and our choices.

Agreed.


To claim man has no free will denies not only logic and reality but also the very word of god and its many real life examples of free will played out in the characters presented to us.

True, because you will find Man's free will in the Bible right next to pre-tribulation, universalism, and the Easter Bunny. :rolleyes:


Without free will, one is not capable of loving God. It is not love when one has no choice.

Nice sayings, but unscriptural.


Jesus chose to die for us - God did not force Him to do so.

To say that is to say it was possible for God to lie throughout the old testament prophets.


This is the heart and mind of a loving god and He desires the same in return from us - freely chosen giving of our love to Him. It is in fact the only kind He recognizes. In truth and in spirit.

It is good to see one who knows God and has His thoughts as your thoughts and His ways as your ways.

Yukerboy
Jan 10th 2009, 02:07 PM
Yes! I would further add that God's will and desire, could be two different things. He wills us to have free will, but desires (not forces) us to use it to choose him. I would also add that nothing that we can do or choose alters God's plan. My choices do not even make God hesitate. He knows what each human will choose and uses that in his plan. I think that is why we feel so blessed when our will comes in alignment with God's will. I also think that we cannot confuse that God allows evil in this world with creating it.

"No one can come to me unless the Father draws him to Me."

The word draw here is not guide. The word draw here does not mean "let's him come"

The word draw here is the same as drawing a fishing net. Did the net have a choice?

The word draw here is the same as when Paul and Silas were dragged out of the temple. Did Paul and Silas have a choice?

The word draw here is the same as drawing water from a well. Did the water have a choice?

The word draw here is the same as drawing a sword. Did the sword have a choice?

No, draw here is meant to be as strong as it was intended. Drag would be a more adequate word, but even then, that still leaves man able to struggle against God's will. None of the above struggled (except maybe Paul and Silas).

Gregg
Jan 10th 2009, 02:17 PM
God can do anything that so pleases Him.

God never gave us the gift of free will. I see a pile of gifts God promises to give in the Bible, but free will is NEVER there.

For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. (John 5:21)

Jesus gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.

You have 3 options (note this, Ken)

1. The verse is correct and Jesus gives life to everyone, thus universalism.
2. The verse is correct and Jesus is pleased to give life to only some.
3. The verse is translated incorrectly when it states "the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it"

So, let us knock out these options.

Let's assume there are those who will be condemned and therefore universalism is not an option.

That the leaves 2 and 3
To prove 3 right or wrong, let's look at some versions.

The NIV (which I used) states:
"the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it"


No, I thank God for choosing me. He could have not chose me, but He did, and I thank Him. I am born again not because of my desires or will, but because of God.

Without Jesus NO one is saved. Why why why did he choose to save us? Because he LOVES US. Because to him we are worth it. Does it PLEASE him to give the gift of eternal life? YES!! Does he force me to accept it? NO! Does it please him when we do? YES, there is joy in Heaven. Did he choose me, yes. He knew me before I was born. Do I understand it? NO.

With all due respect, I feel that your way is not good news, in fact I do not know how you could ever be sure that you are saved. It might be good for you, but your message to those living in sin is because God created them to go to hell and there is no one to save them. If I believed in what you have written, I would have to question my own salvation and stop telling others about Jesus Christ. I would then have to assume that it is what God wants, so I may as well do as Jobs wife suggested, curse God and lay down and die. But I rebuke those thoughts and words, and I thank God for the wonderful gift he has given me. I ask for more courage and wisdom to share the Good News and to align my will with his. In Jesus prescious name, Amen.

Of course I am not suggesting that you do not have a heart for the Lord, or in anyway implying that you are not saved. But I really think you have only half of the story.

divaD
Jan 10th 2009, 02:22 PM
Hosea 8:4 states "4They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not"

Now, if you truly believe these words are literal, then you believe in a God that doesn't know everything.




Yes that verse is to be taken literal. But it doesn't imply that God didn't actually know. It would be better rendered such as this.


Hosea 8:4 They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I acknowledged it not: of their silver and their gold have they
made them idols, that they may be cut off.


and I acknowledged it not. We need to read this from the perspective of 'but not by me'. That's why the Lord didn't acknowledge it, because it wasn't any of His doings. This doesn't mean that He didn't know tho.

Yukerboy
Jan 10th 2009, 02:59 PM
Without Jesus NO one is saved.

Agreed.


Why why why did he choose to save us? Because he LOVES US. Because to him we are worth it. Does it PLEASE him to give the gift of eternal life? YES!!

Agreed too, as long as you agree that "us" are the born again.


Does he force me to accept it? NO!

And the Scriptures that show we choose Christ and are not forced to accept Him are where?


Does it please him when we do? YES, there is joy in Heaven. Did he choose me, yes. He knew me before I was born. Do I understand it? NO.

Understand it then. You, being so unrighteous and so pathetic and completely dead in your sins could not come to Christ. You had to be given life. You couldn't resurrect yourself. You couldn't choose to come alive. So, God, in His grace, invited some to partake of His life giving banquet. Those some did not come. So God invited all to come. And all came, but those that were not born (not of man's desires, efforts, or will but of God) were then cast out of the banquet.



With all due respect, I feel that your way is not good news, in fact I do not know how you could ever be sure that you are saved. It might be good for you, but your message to those living in sin is because God created them to go to hell and there is no one to save them. If I believed in what you have written, I would have to question my own salvation and stop telling others about Jesus Christ. I would then have to assume that it is what God wants, so I may as well do as Jobs wife suggested, curse God and lay down and die. But I rebuke those thoughts and words, and I thank God for the wonderful gift he has given me. I ask for more courage and wisdom to share the Good News and to align my will with his. In Jesus prescious name, Amen.


Here's the different messages from us...

Believing as I do, when I witness to others, I must tell then that they are no good. That they have no righteousness whatsoever. That everything they do is evil and they cannot come to righteousness. But, thanks be to God, some of them will through His grace, his mercy and his choosing. There is nothing they could do about it, but God can.

Believing as you do, when you witness to others, you must tell them that while they are sinners, they still are good. While they are sinners, they can make themselves not be sinners by coming to Christ. That they have enough intelligence, goodness, righteousness, spiritualness, what have you to choose God though those who are unrighteous do not seek God. Then when they become saved, they have something to boast of, for it was an action they took that saved them.



Of course I am not suggesting that you do not have a heart for the Lord, or in anyway implying that you are not saved. But I really think you have only half of the story.


Thank you and same here. We'll see each other in front of God and God will point out our follies as well as our truths.

One point you made that I did not address yet is 'I would have to question my own salvation"

I do. Everyday.

Work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Make your election sure. Even Paul said he could be disqualified. Not everyone who believes are born again, but everybody who is born again believes.

Yukerboy
Jan 10th 2009, 03:03 PM
Yes that verse is to be taken literal. But it doesn't imply that God didn't actually know. It would be better rendered such as this.


Hosea 8:4 They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I acknowledged it not: of their silver and their gold have they
made them idols, that they may be cut off.


and I acknowledged it not. We need to read this from the perspective of 'but not by me'. That's why the Lord didn't acknowledge it, because it wasn't any of His doings. This doesn't mean that He didn't know tho.

There's the contradiction. If you are correct, then Paul lied.

They set up kings, by the Lord's will, but not by His desire.

They made princes, by the Lord's will, but not by His desire.

This is the only way I can think of to say that this verse is true and keep from calling Paul a liar.

EarlyCall
Jan 10th 2009, 03:14 PM
Yes! I would further add that God's will and desire, could be two different things. He wills us to have free will, but desires (not forces) us to use it to choose him. I would also add that nothing that we can do or choose alters God's plan. My choices do not even make God hesitate. He knows what each human will choose and uses that in his plan. I think that is why we feel so blessed when our will comes in alignment with God's will. I also think that we cannot confuse that God allows evil in this world with creating it.

You are absolutely right. God's purposed will for mankind is what He has determined and what will be but His desires for all of mankind and for each of us are another matter entirely.

And you are absolutely right that God does involve Himself in any manner in sin or evil. God is a holy god - completely and absolutely holy. And He tells us this in His word.

I cringe any time someone takes the liberty to try and pin any evil or sin on God by linking God in any manner to it.

Someone has said in this thread that when God commanded the Jews to kill even the women and children that it was murder. That someone has a misunderstanding of what murder is. What God commanded was a righteous thing.

Shall we accuse God of murder for every person He ever struck down? I would not dare to even hint at such a thing concerning God who is Holy.

EarlyCall
Jan 10th 2009, 03:16 PM
There's the contradiction. If you are correct, then Paul lied.

They set up kings, by the Lord's will, but not by His desire.

They made princes, by the Lord's will, but not by His desire.

This is the only way I can think of to say that this verse is true and keep from calling Paul a liar.

You have added your own thinking to this verse in Hosea. It does not say by God's will. Simple as that. You have added your own words to god's and are claiming it is so.

Further, you take what Paul said and add again your own thoughts. Paul never said - always. You read that in to it.

Now I'm not going to go round and round with you. You either recognize this or you do not. Line up your thinking with god's word and not god's word with your thinking.

Yukerboy
Jan 10th 2009, 03:29 PM
You have added your own thinking to this verse in Hosea. It does not say by God's will. Simple as that. You have added your own words to god's and are claiming it is so.

Further, you take what Paul said and add again your own thoughts. Paul never said - always. You read that in to it.

Now I'm not going to go round and round with you. You either recognize this or you do not. Line up your thinking with god's word and not god's word with your thinking.

"Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God."

Read it any way your heart desires. If this is true then what is said in Hosea must confirm it.

EarlyCall
Jan 10th 2009, 03:30 PM
Sin did not spring to life when they ate of the tree. Sin sprang to life when the command was given to them.

True but what point does this make? They still chose. So I see no reason for even mentioning this. It negates my point in no way at all.


Are we now to call Joshua God? Jesus talks alot about Him doing the choosing, but never does He use choose as an act we can take.

Call Joshua whatever you like. You hope to imply in your question that if a man can choose he must be God. That is a leap in ridiculousness. I won't play that game or go there. That you imply something silly does not make your point.

Throughout the Bible we see people doing good or bad just as God foreknew and foreordained.



How prideful is man that he can believe He can upend God's will?

Here again you make a ridiculous leap into utter nonsense. You imply that if we can actually make a choice, we somehow ruin God's will. Nonsense.

Why did God give the command if He knew sin would spring to life?
Paul even tells us that God put the law in place so that sin would increase. The will of God was that we should sin, beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Law or no law we would sin because it is in our nature to do so. The law makes our utter sinfulness evident to us. God already knows this. And we need some standard by which to know and live - whether we meet the standard or not.

Really? God, by doing His will, is just and good.



Hosea 8:4 states "4They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not"

Now, if you truly believe these words are literal, then you believe in a God that doesn't know everything.

Once more you make a leap into utter ridiculousness and expect me to follow you there. I will not. You assume silliness here. I do believe the words.

First, you twist the scripture to something it does not say by implication. You imply that if the Jews chose kings and appointed princes contrary to God's will, that God does not know everything.

Where do you get such ideas? I can just as easily claim God knew all along they would do exactly that. Which in fact is what I do claim.



Our God knows everything.

And as God said through Paul "Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God."

Yes, but understand here that Paul is speaking of the institution of authority. What Paul says here is that God established the institution of authorities. Well, of course He did and why should we be surprised? Had He not we'd all live in utter chaos at all times. Thus is the nature of man.

But where in what Paul said does he even hint that every leader ever to come to power was placed there by God? Nowhere. Now we do read elsewhere in God's word that he does sometimes literally place a person in power and sometimes removes them - entire kingdoms in fact.

Agreed.



True, because you will find Man's free will in the Bible right next to pre-tribulation, universalism, and the Easter Bunny. :rolleyes:



Nice sayings, but unscriptural.



To say that is to say it was possible for God to lie throughout the old testament prophets.



It is good to see one who knows God and has His thoughts as your thoughts and His ways as your ways.


Well, I'm not going to go round and round with you on this stuff. I've presented my case as you have yours. I have no need to see you convinced either way.

Yukerboy
Jan 10th 2009, 03:32 PM
Someone has said in this thread that when God commanded the Jews to kill even the women and children that it was murder. That someone has a misunderstanding of what murder is. What God commanded was a righteous thing.

Shall we accuse God of murder for every person He ever struck down? I would not dare to even hint at such a thing concerning God who is Holy.

You are correct. Maybe I misunderstand murder.

I consider driving a sword through the chest of a baby that just watched you use that same sword to decapitate the mother and father of that defenseless child murder.

Let us redefine murder.

Yukerboy
Jan 10th 2009, 03:51 PM
Well, I'm not going to go round and round with you on this stuff. I've presented my case as you have yours. I have no need to see you convinced either way.

Yes, but at least try to root what you say in Scripture....


True but what point does this make? They still chose. So I see no reason for even mentioning this. It negates my point in no way at all.

They had no choice. Sin sprang to life and they died when the commandment came as Paul said.


Call Joshua whatever you like. You hope to imply in your question that if a man can choose he must be God. That is a leap in ridiculousness. I won't play that game or go there. That you imply something silly does not make your point.

You imply that man chooses God in contradiction of the Scriptures.


Here again you make a ridiculous leap into utter nonsense. You imply that if we can actually make a choice, we somehow ruin God's will. Nonsense.

God wills you to believe, you choose not to believe, therefore God's will becomes upended.

God desires all to come to repentance. God grants repentance. Therefore man made no choice. God gave some repentance contrary to His desires.


Law or no law we would sin because it is in our nature to do so. The law makes our utter sinfulness evident to us. God already knows this. And we need some standard by which to know and live - whether we meet the standard or not.

We have a sin nature? God bless you. You got some truth mixed in...

The law made sin spring to life. The law was added so that the trespass might increase. Sin is transgression of the law. Hard to have one without the other.


First, you twist the scripture to something it does not say by implication. You imply that if the Jews chose kings and appointed princes contrary to God's will, that God does not know everything.

Where do you get such ideas? I can just as easily claim God knew all along they would do exactly that. Which in fact is what I do claim.

You claim that they appointed authority against the will of God, yet Paul said no authority is established except by God.

Who is twisting Scripture?


Yes, but understand here that Paul is speaking of the institution of authority. What Paul says here is that God established the institution of authorities. Well, of course He did and why should we be surprised? Had He not we'd all live in utter chaos at all times. Thus is the nature of man.


Oh wait, I see it now. Institution is right there next to free will. And oh look! Santa Claus! :rofl:

Paul says submit to governing authorities. Paul then says no (governing from the pretext) authority exists except those that God has established.

Let's not twist even more Scripture.

I say now to you. Use the word of God so that the Word of God can use you!

divaD
Jan 10th 2009, 03:58 PM
"Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God."

Read it any way your heart desires. If this is true then what is said in Hosea must confirm it.



Yukerboy, for the life of me I couldn't figure out where you were coming from. But now I clearly see where you're coming from and why you might come to the conclusions that you do.

But let's dig a little deeper here for amoment.

Revelation 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.


Notice in this verse whom gave the beast his power, and his seat, and great authority. It was the dragon, IOW satan. Apparently God allows this to happen, but God certainly isn't the one who gives the beast his power, and his seat, and great authority.

So according to how you interpret Scriptures, I guess this then means that it was actually God who gave the beast his power, and his seat, and great authority, even tho the text plainly states that the dragon did, just like in Hosea 8:4, the text plainly states that it was not of God's doing.

In order to come to a correct understanding of Scriptures, we have to consider all of the Scriptures as a whole. There are no contradictions in the Bible. The only contradictions are from our misinterpretations. And each one of us are guilty of this in one way or another. I know I am.

Yukerboy
Jan 10th 2009, 04:08 PM
Yukerboy, for the life of me I couldn't figure out where you were coming from. But now I clearly see where you're coming from and why you might come to the conclusions that you do.

But let's dig a little deeper here for amoment.

Revelation 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.


Notice in this verse whom gave the beast his power, and his seat, and great authority. It was the dragon, IOW satan. Apparently God allows this to happen, but God certainly isn't the one who gives the beast his power, and his seat, and great authority.

So according to how you interpret Scriptures, I guess this then means that it was actually God who gave the beast his power, and his seat, and great authority, even tho the text plainly states that the dragon did, just like in Hosea 8:4, the text plainly states that it was not of God's doing.

In order to come to a correct understanding of Scriptures, we have to consider all of the Scriptures as a whole. There are no contradictions in the Bible. The only contradictions are from our misinterpretations. And each one of us are guilty of this in one way or another. I know I am.

DivaD, your words here are salty and good. Even though I disagree with some of it, great post, logical and Scripturally based.

Dig even deeper. Satan gives him authority, power, and his seat. So, while Satan did that, God also did that through Satan. The tribulation is not outside of God's will, therefore everything that is to occur is a promise from God. It will happen. Man (nor satan) can cause it not to happen.

If God willed for it to be prevented, it would be prevented, but it is in accordance with God's will.

For Paul and John to be both correct, The beast received his power and authority from satan, yet his authority and being placed in a power of authority was from God.

I see another case where God uses evil to fulfill His good puposes. The beats coming to power is just and good....and his downfall is juster and gooder ;)

Yuke

Gregg
Jan 10th 2009, 04:30 PM
"Likewise I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth." Luke 15:10.

If who ever has the joy (be it angels or God) knew that the repentence was not a choice there would be no joy. There would be "well that's how they were created anyway."

Yuker, I am still waiting for a reply to this scripture.

Yukerboy
Jan 10th 2009, 04:45 PM
"Likewise I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth." Luke 15:10.

If who ever has the joy (be it angels or God) knew that the repentence was not a choice there would be no joy. There would be "well that's how they were created anyway."

I don't deny the Scripture. But to say there should be no joy over a sinner repenting because we are predestined to is like saying we don't love God if we are predestined to.

Both statements are false.

Just because a creation does what it is supposed to do doesn't mean the creator doesn't take joy in that creation doing it.

Gregg
Jan 10th 2009, 04:55 PM
Agreed.



Agreed too, as long as you agree that "us" are the born again.

God loves all of his children. We are not to gloat if our enemies receive earthly punishment from God. We can never tell when one of the sinners will accept Gods gift and then repent.



And the Scriptures that show we choose Christ and are not forced to accept Him are where?

Many scriptures of choice have already been posted. I would pose to you that the whole purpose of the Bible is to show man that he can have the gift of salvation and eternal life with God. It also shows that he cannot earn it.



Understand it then. You, being so unrighteous and so pathetic and completely dead in your sins could not come to Christ. You had to be given life. You couldn't resurrect yourself. You couldn't choose to come alive. So, God, in His grace, invited some to partake of His life giving banquet. Those some did not come. So God invited all to come. And all came, but those that were not born (not of man's desires, efforts, or will but of God) were then cast out of the banquet.

I WAS unrighteous and pathetic. I am NOW a new creation. Any good deed that I tried to use to gain salvation WAS like bloody rags. NOW I no longer do good deeds for the salvation that has been given to me as a free gift, but do so in loving obedience to please my Lord and Savior, My Father, My God, and sometimes it pleases him. I can tell by the fruit.



Here's the different messages from us...

Believing as I do, when I witness to others, I must tell then that they are no good. That they have no righteousness whatsoever. That everything they do is evil and they cannot come to righteousness. But, thanks be to God, some of them will through His grace, his mercy and his choosing. There is nothing they could do about it, but God can.

And if you said this to me years ago, I would ask you how will I know if I am accepted.

Believing as you do, when you witness to others, you must tell them that while they are sinners, they still are good. While they are sinners, they can make themselves not be sinners by coming to Christ. That they have enough intelligence, goodness, righteousness, spiritualness, what have you to choose God though those who are unrighteous do not seek God. Then when they become saved, they have something to boast of, for it was an action they took that saved them.

NO, NO NO!!! I tell them that they are sinners and someone has to pay the price. Jesus Christ the Son of God has done this. As the living Savior he is offering to give you the gift of salvation. If you accept the gift and give your life to him he will heal you and make you cleaner than new snow. Your current life will change, and you will want to share this good news with others so that they might fall at the feet of Christ. I have done nothing for salvation. I cannot boast. I can only repent and be grateful.



Thank you and same here. We'll see each other in front of God and God will point out our follies as well as our truths.

One point you made that I did not address yet is 'I would have to question my own salvation"

I do. Everyday.

I think that is why we are having this conversation. I do not think that God wants you to be in bondage to fear of damnation, but to rejoice in his grace.... and share the good news!



Work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Make your election sure. Even Paul said he could be disqualified. Not everyone who believes are born again, but everybody who is born again believes.

I am not sure how this quote thing works. I have typed my answers after your questions/comments.

reformedct
Jan 10th 2009, 05:02 PM
As i said before:

Man DOES HAVE FREE WILL

the problem is that his will is to do evil, his mind is hostile, and he has a desperately wicked heart. Out of the heart flow the wellsprings of life. Out of our heart comes our lives. Man has free will BUT he also has a desperately wicked heart. A fleshly man will not submit. No one seeks God. No one is righteous, no one understands. What is known about God is evident but they suppress the truth in their unrighteousness. That is what the fleshly man uses his free will to do. To reject God.

As Jesus said

You did not choose me, but i chose you

Yes the disciples chose to follow Jesus, but did they first seek and choose Jesus or did Jesus first seek and choose them? Did Jesus, before the foundation of the world, say, hey that Peter looks like he will choose me, so i will choose him? Or did He say, i will choose Peter because i am God and i choose whom i please?


It basically boils down to this: do you believe God overrides our will. Many say that this view paints an unjust God but that is not so. If any of your children ran toward the street with fast coming traffic you would "override their will" and snatch them out of harms way. God does the same when He saves us. He snatches us out of harms way. Those who are not "chosen" are allowed to chase after exactly what they want. They want to fulfill the desires of their flesh and live without God. So God gives them over. Everybody chooses hell. We are by nature objects of wrath. God in His love snatches us from the fire. He desires all to be saved, but He knows some will simply never choose Him. So He goes out and seeks us, the lost. Everybody gets what they wanted except for the Christian.

Gregg
Jan 10th 2009, 05:02 PM
I don't deny the Scripture. But to say there should be no joy over a sinner repenting because we are predestined to is like saying we don't love God if we are predestined to.

Both statements are false.

Just because a creation does what it is supposed to do doesn't mean the creator doesn't take joy in that creation doing it.

Awe come on. Are you telling me that the purpose of this scripture is not to let us know that there is joy for each one that comes and repents. There would be no joy if we were programed to do this with no chance of not choosing.

reformedct
Jan 10th 2009, 05:03 PM
As i said before:

Man DOES HAVE FREE WILL

the problem is that his will is to do evil, his mind is hostile, and he has a desperately wicked heart. Out of the heart flow the wellsprings of life. Out of our heart comes our lives. Man has free will BUT he also has a desperately wicked heart. A fleshly man will not submit. No one seeks God. No one is righteous, no one understands. What is known about God is evident but they suppress the truth in their unrighteousness. That is what the fleshly man uses his free will to do. To reject God.

As Jesus said

You did not choose me, but i chose you

Yes the disciples chose to follow Jesus, but did they first seek and choose Jesus or did Jesus first seek and choose them? Did Jesus, before the foundation of the world, say, hey that Peter looks like he will choose me, so i will choose him? Or did He say, i will choose Peter because i am God and i choose whom i please?


It basically boils down to this: do you believe God overrides our will. Many say that this view paints an unjust God but that is not so. If any of your children ran toward the street with fast coming traffic you would "override their will" and snatch them out of harms way. God does the same when He saves us. He snatches us out of harms way. Those who are not "chosen" are allowed to chase after exactly what they want. They want to fulfill the desires of their flesh and live without God. So God gives them over. Everybody chooses hell. We are by nature objects of wrath. God in His love snatches us from the fire. He desires all to be saved, but He knows some will simply never choose Him. So He goes out and seeks us, the lost. Everybody gets what they wanted except for the Christian.


So yes we have free will and yes God is sovreign and chooses us

But our free will is exercised with a heart of stone. That is why God says He will give us a new heart. The old one is cold and stony and does not love God

To say that by ourselves we can choose God is to say that a person with a desperatley wicked heart and a mind that is hostile to God can all of the sudden generate a decision of pure love and submission to God without being regenerated

divaD
Jan 10th 2009, 05:15 PM
Man DOES HAVE FREE WILL

the problem is that his will is to do evil


Hmmm...so all that time that Adam and Eve were in the garden, and when they chose not to partake of the tree, they were really doing evil, because it was their will to do so, even tho at the time they were completely sinless?

reformedct
Jan 10th 2009, 05:22 PM
Hmmm...so all that time that Adam and Eve were in the garden, and when they chose not to partake of the tree, they were really doing evil, because it was their will to do so, even tho at the time they were completely sinless?


No way. Adam and Eve did not have a sin nature. Adam and Eve had free will. They could choose God or not, beause they were sinless. They were not bound by sin and its effects. They were in the presence and constant relationship with God in a sinless Paradise. Adam and Eve chose sin because they had the ability to choose, not because they were evil. However unlike Adam and Eve, we are wrought in iniquity. We are under the curse. Through one man death spread to all. We are not born in a sinless perfect relationship to God like Adam and Eve. Our hearts our desperately wicked. We go out speaking lies from the womb. As Jesus says, whoever commits sin is a slave to sin. ONce Adam used his free will to sin, he bacme a slave to it. This doesnt mean that we dont have free will, its just that our free will operates in a state of being enslaved to sin and our hearts are cold and stony. We need new hearts so we can use our free will to love God. Once we are set free from bondage we can now use our free will to love God

Thomas1621
Jan 10th 2009, 05:23 PM
When Christ said fear God, what characteristic of God did He use, hurting the one we love, or fear the one that can destroy both body and soul?

If you are not in a relationship with God, you are in a relationship with the world, self or what can be personally gained from it. If you love God, how could you fear Him as a destroyer when He is our salvation. Do you fear your spouse or loved ones? if so you got a serious problem that needs to be delt with... Think more from the heart and you will understand better Who He is. But it is not my intention to go off topic.

Yukerboy
Jan 10th 2009, 05:23 PM
God loves all of his children. We are not to gloat if our enemies receive earthly punishment from God. We can never tell when one of the sinners will accept Gods gift and then repent.

Agreed, yet I consider repentance itself a gift of God.


Many scriptures of choice have already been posted. I would pose to you that the whole purpose of the Bible is to show man that he can have the gift of salvation and eternal life with God. It also shows that he cannot earn it.

I would agree that is the purpose and also for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

Those who are born again are:
chosen by Christ to know God. (Matthew 11:27, Luke 10:22)
put in the world by Christ (Matthew 13:24)
the only ones chosen from those invited (Matthew 22:14)
chosen by God (Mark 13:20, Romans 8:33)
given the right to become children of God from Christ (John 1:12)...note that even the right to become children of God is given from God. It is a gift, not a decision.
not born children of God by human decision (John 1:13)
given life by Christ because it pleases Christ (John 5:21)
given to Christ by God (John 6:39)
Enabled to come to Christ by God (John 6:65)
chosen by Christ (John 15:16)
unable to choose Christ (John 15:16)
been granted repentance by God (Acts 11:18)
Predestined by God (Romans 8:30)
Are appointed by God for eternal life (Acts 13:48)Are in Christ Jesus because of God (1 Corinthians 1:30)

no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him (Matthew 11:27)
For many are invited, but few are chosen. (Matthew 22:14)
But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them (Mark 13:20)
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit (John 15:16)
you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. (John 15:19)
the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it(Romans 8:20)
he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.(Ephesians 1:4)
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,(Ephesians 1:11)
from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. (2 Thessalonians 2:13)
For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, (1 Thessalonians 1:4)
He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created. (James 1:18)


I WAS unrighteous and pathetic. I am NOW a new creation. Any good deed that I tried to use to gain salvation WAS like bloody rags. NOW I no longer do good deeds for the salvation that has been given to me as a free gift, but do so in loving obedience to please my Lord and Savior, My Father, My God, and sometimes it pleases him. I can tell by the fruit.

True! Except everything you do as a new creation pleases God. You can do nothing of your own. It is God who works in you to will and act.


And if you said this to me years ago, I would ask you how will I know if I am accepted.

And my answer would be the same as now. If you endure to the end, you will be saved and all who are born again are made to endure to the end. There is no such thing as blessed assurance.


NO, NO NO!!! I tell them that they are sinners and someone has to pay the price. Jesus Christ the Son of God has done this. As the living Savior he is offering to give you the gift of salvation. If you accept the gift and give your life to him he will heal you and make you cleaner than new snow. Your current life will change, and you will want to share this good news with others so that they might fall at the feet of Christ. I have done nothing for salvation. I cannot boast. I can only repent and be grateful.


True. And that gift, even repentance, was from God. There was no choice on their part. All who God appoint to life will beleive.


I am not sure how this quote thing works. I have typed my answers after your questions/comments.

The way I break it down is hit the quick reply button in a post, copy and paste the words and then click the quote button on the top of the quick reply box.

Not saying that's the best way to do it, just how I do it.

Thomas1621
Jan 10th 2009, 05:29 PM
Yes! I would further add that God's will and desire, could be two different things. He wills us to have free will, but desires (not forces) us to use it to choose him. I would also add that nothing that we can do or choose alters God's plan. My choices do not even make God hesitate. He knows what each human will choose and uses that in his plan. I think that is why we feel so blessed when our will comes in alignment with God's will. I also think that we cannot confuse that God allows evil in this world with creating it.

Ping... Dead on. :pp

Yukerboy
Jan 10th 2009, 05:36 PM
As i said before:

Man DOES HAVE FREE WILL

the problem is that his will is to do evil, his mind is hostile, and he has a desperately wicked heart. Out of the heart flow the wellsprings of life. Out of our heart comes our lives. Man has free will BUT he also has a desperately wicked heart. A fleshly man will not submit. No one seeks God. No one is righteous, no one understands. What is known about God is evident but they suppress the truth in their unrighteousness. That is what the fleshly man uses his free will to do. To reject God.

As Jesus said

You did not choose me, but i chose you

Yes the disciples chose to follow Jesus, but did they first seek and choose Jesus or did Jesus first seek and choose them? Did Jesus, before the foundation of the world, say, hey that Peter looks like he will choose me, so i will choose him? Or did He say, i will choose Peter because i am God and i choose whom i please?


It basically boils down to this: do you believe God overrides our will. Many say that this view paints an unjust God but that is not so. If any of your children ran toward the street with fast coming traffic you would "override their will" and snatch them out of harms way. God does the same when He saves us. He snatches us out of harms way. Those who are not "chosen" are allowed to chase after exactly what they want. They want to fulfill the desires of their flesh and live without God. So God gives them over. Everybody chooses hell. We are by nature objects of wrath. God in His love snatches us from the fire. He desires all to be saved, but He knows some will simply never choose Him. So He goes out and seeks us, the lost. Everybody gets what they wanted except for the Christian.

God has bound all men over to disobedience (Romans 11:32).

Did we choose for God to bound all men over, or did God choose to bind them?


If you are not in a relationship with God, you are in a relationship with the world, self or what can be personally gained from it. If you love God, how could you fear Him as a destroyer when He is our salvation. Do you fear your spouse or loved ones? if so you got a serious problem that needs to be delt with... Think more from the heart and you will understand better Who He is. But it is not my intention to go off topic.

You can't go off topic. The topic is some people's beliefs. :)

Work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Make your election sure. Paul believed he could be disqualified. The unbelieving Jews were disqualified.

When you do not have blessed assurance, you must fear God. Paul was afraid he could be disqualified. If you have assurance, then you are greater than Paul and I bless you for that. As for me, I believe I am born again, but I don't KNOW I am born again.

Thomas1621
Jan 10th 2009, 05:41 PM
Agreed, yet I consider repentance itself a gift of God.



I would agree that is the purpose and also for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

Those who are born again are:
chosen by Christ to know God. (Matthew 11:27, Luke 10:22)
put in the world by Christ (Matthew 13:24)
the only ones chosen from those invited (Matthew 22:14)
chosen by God (Mark 13:20, Romans 8:33)
given the right to become children of God from Christ (John 1:12)...note that even the right to become children of God is given from God. It is a gift, not a decision.
not born children of God by human decision (John 1:13)
given life by Christ because it pleases Christ (John 5:21)
given to Christ by God (John 6:39)
Enabled to come to Christ by God (John 6:65)
chosen by Christ (John 15:16)
unable to choose Christ (John 15:16)
been granted repentance by God (Acts 11:18)
Predestined by God (Romans 8:30)
Are appointed by God for eternal life (Acts 13:48)Are in Christ Jesus because of God (1 Corinthians 1:30)

no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him (Matthew 11:27)
For many are invited, but few are chosen. (Matthew 22:14)
But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them (Mark 13:20)
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit (John 15:16)
you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. (John 15:19)
the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it(Romans 8:20)
he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.(Ephesians 1:4)
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,(Ephesians 1:11)
from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. (2 Thessalonians 2:13)
For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, (1 Thessalonians 1:4)
He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created. (James 1:18)



True! Except everything you do as a new creation pleases God. You can do nothing of your own. It is God who works in you to will and act.



And my answer would be the same as now. If you endure to the end, you will be saved and all who are born again are made to endure to the end. There is no such thing as blessed assurance.



True. And that gift, even repentance, was from God. There was no choice on their part. All who God appoint to life will beleive.



The way I break it down is hit the quick reply button in a post, copy and paste the words and then click the quote button on the top of the quick reply box.

Not saying that's the best way to do it, just how I do it.

Repentance is a gift from God given to us in free will which he also has given us. One way or another all good that we have is given to us from God with the freedom to seek and choose Him in our lives and of our lives. Even those who are truly born again had to choose somewhere along the line. It is taking away from God to claim that the freedom of will He has given us is somehow distorted or controlled by what God wants. If someone in a loving relationship with me claimed they were with me because they had no choice there would no longer be a relationship but more a forced presence in which case there would be absolutely no point to God having the necessity to know what is in a man's heart at all.

divaD
Jan 10th 2009, 05:43 PM
No way. Adam and Eve did not have a sin nature. Adam and Eve had free will. They could choose God or not, beause they were sinless. They were not bound by sin and its effects. They were in the presence and constant relationship with God in a sinless Paradise. Adam and Eve chose sin because they had the ability to choose, not because they were evil. However unlike Adam and Eve, we are wrought in iniquity. We are under the curse. Through one man death spread to all. We are not born in a sinless perfect relationship to God like Adam and Eve. Our hearts our desperately wicked. We go out speaking lies from the womb. As Jesus says, whoever commits sin is a slave to sin. ONce Adam used his free will to sin, he bacme a slave to it. This doesnt mean that we dont have free will, its just that our free will operates in a state of being enslaved to sin and our hearts are cold and stony. We need new hearts so we can use our free will to love God. Once we are set free from bondage we can now use our free will to love God



Fair enough. You do have a pretty good way of explaining things. I was just trying to make a point. It just seemed that your view of free will was somewhat one sided. I especially like what you stated here: "Once we are set free from bondage we can now use our free will to love God". That fits in very nicely with the rest of what you said.

Yukerboy
Jan 10th 2009, 05:47 PM
Repentance is a gift from God given to us in free will which he also has given us. One way or another all good that we have is given to us from God with the freedom to seek and choose Him in our lives and of our lives. Even those who are truly born again had to choose somewhere along the line. It is taking away from God to claim that the freedom of will He has given us is somehow distorted or controlled by what God wants. If someone in a loving relationship with me claimed they were with me because they had no choice there would no longer be a relationship but more a forced presence in which case there would be absolutely no point to God having the necessity to know what is in a man's heart at all.

That is all pleasing to the ears. Now, the Scripture to back up "God dives us free will" or "we have the freedom to seek and choose him" or that "those who are born again made a choice" (which is a clear contradiction of John 1:12-13: children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.). When did you choose to be born?

Thomas1621
Jan 10th 2009, 05:55 PM
God has bound all men over to disobedience (Romans 11:32).

Did we choose for God to bound all men over, or did God choose to bind them?



You can't go off topic. The topic is some people's beliefs. :)

Work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Make your election sure. Paul believed he could be disqualified. The unbelieving Jews were disqualified.
True, but did they not make that choice? My election is sure and my love of God strengthens me to fight my weaknesses because I do not want to hurt Him as I have done in the past. Hurting Him is my fear because I am merely human and weak and can not guarantee I will not fall.

When you do not have blessed assurance, you must fear God. Paul was afraid he could be disqualified. If you have assurance, then you are greater than Paul and I bless you for that. As for me, I believe I am born again, but I don't KNOW I am born again.

Your absolutely right in that you don't know that your "born again" and that's good because some abuse the salvation God has provided by misinterpreting what that means. Born again doesn't mean to be beyond accountable for sins that will be committed. I have no more or less assurance than anyone else.
How do you think Paul felt about God? Do you think maybe his fear was for the same reasons or only because God could Fry him if He so chose.

Gregg
Jan 10th 2009, 05:57 PM
[quote=Yukerboy;1938369

And my answer would be the same as now. If you endure to the end, you will be saved and all who are born again are made to endure to the end. There is no such thing as blessed assurance.


[/quote]


Endure what? If I have to "endure to the end" to be saved I am now adding something to the blood of Jesus. You are suggesting that I have to do something to be saved. I do nothing except accept.

Jesus would not have used the disciples if he did not want to give people a choice.

Gregg
Jan 10th 2009, 06:08 PM
Jesus did not send the disciples out to share the bad news or just the good news for those that have won the lottery. Or to cause fear or confusion. He sent them out so all could repent and receive the gift, even those that were not his chosen people.

He wants me to walk in complete faith in Him. Worry is a sin, he doesn't want me to worry. I have to give this to Him to help me...and he does.

Thomas1621
Jan 10th 2009, 06:13 PM
That is all pleasing to the ears. Now, the Scripture to back up "God dives us free will" or "we have the freedom to seek and choose him" or that "those who are born again made a choice" (which is a clear contradiction of John 1:12-13: children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.). When did you choose to be born?

Take the verses back a few more words and you see it was based on them ACCEPTING God. It was then that they were begotten ...
10 He was in the world, and the world came to be through him, but the world did not know him. 11 He came to what was his own, but his own people 7 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$3Q5) did not accept him. 12 But to those who did accept him he gave power to become children of God, to those who believe in his name, 13 8 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$3Q6) who were born not by natural generation nor by human choice nor by a man's decision but of God. Begotten of God because they became believers, yes. Had they not become believers what do you think would be the outcome? Yukerboy, God is all good and all truth, and this free will to choose Him is a good thing because it is sincerely given just as His love of us is sincerely given. For those who are given more, more is expected... meaning we must make the choice not only to take what God offers but to give back in return.

EarlyCall
Jan 10th 2009, 07:12 PM
Hmmm...so all that time that Adam and Eve were in the garden, and when they chose not to partake of the tree, they were really doing evil, because it was their will to do so, even tho at the time they were completely sinless?


Well said. You have just shown how logic can destroy poor arguments. :) Well done.

reformedct
Jan 10th 2009, 07:30 PM
Well said. You have just shown how logic can destroy poor arguments. :) Well done.

did u even read my response to her that she actually saw as fair?:

"No way. Adam and Eve did not have a sin nature. Adam and Eve had free will. They could choose God or not, beause they were sinless. They were not bound by sin and its effects. They were in the presence and constant relationship with God in a sinless Paradise. Adam and Eve chose sin because they had the ability to choose, not because they were evil. However unlike Adam and Eve, we are wrought in iniquity. We are under the curse. Through one man death spread to all. We are not born in a sinless perfect relationship to God like Adam and Eve. Our hearts our desperately wicked. We go out speaking lies from the womb. As Jesus says, whoever commits sin is a slave to sin. ONce Adam used his free will to sin, he bacme a slave to it. This doesnt mean that we dont have free will, its just that our free will operates in a state of being enslaved to sin and our hearts are cold and stony. We need new hearts so we can use our free will to love God. Once we are set free from bondage we can now use our free will to love God"


Adam did not have an evil will but he did have ability to do evil. Without ability to do evil he would be a robot. Adam exercised his ability to do evil and thus became a slave to sin. Adam did indeed have true free will. Because he was not a slave to sin he was able to freely choose God. But free will is like a steak knife. It can be used for good or used to kill someone. Adams free will was not evil but it could used to do evil. Adam did not sin because of an evil heart, he sinned out of his free will to choose good or evil

Yukerboy
Jan 10th 2009, 08:32 PM
Take the verses back a few more words and you see it was based on them ACCEPTING God. It was then that they were begotten ...
10 He was in the world, and the world came to be through him, but the world did not know him. 11 He came to what was his own, but his own people 7 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$3Q5) did not accept him. 12 But to those who did accept him he gave power to become children of God, to those who believe in his name, 13 8 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$3Q6) who were born not by natural generation nor by human choice nor by a man's decision but of God. Begotten of God because they became believers, yes. Had they not become believers what do you think would be the outcome? Yukerboy, God is all good and all truth, and this free will to choose Him is a good thing because it is sincerely given just as His love of us is sincerely given. For those who are given more, more is expected... meaning we must make the choice not only to take what God offers but to give back in return.
You say "Begotten of God because they became believers"

I say that they are born again "not by natural generation nor by human choice nor by a man's decision but of God"

Yukerboy
Jan 10th 2009, 08:34 PM
Jesus did not send the disciples out to share the bad news or just the good news for those that have won the lottery. Or to cause fear or confusion. He sent them out so all could repent and receive the gift, even those that were not his chosen people.

Sounds great. The Scripture that shows this would be?

divaD
Jan 10th 2009, 09:44 PM
Sounds great. The Scripture that shows this would be?



I'm fairly certain that what Gregg means by not His chosen people..this would be like the Gentiles, etc. There are plenty of Scriptures that show the Gentiles were never God's chosen ppl. I'm certain you know this tho. Perhaps you're simply misunderstang Gregg's post, or perhaps maybe even I am, but that's whom I assume he is referring to.

Gregg
Jan 10th 2009, 09:47 PM
I'm fairly certain that what Gregg means by not His chosen people..this would be like the Gentiles, etc. There are plenty of Scriptures that show the Gentiles were never God's chosen ppl. I'm certain you know this tho. Perhaps you're simply misunderstang Gregg's post, or perhaps maybe even I am, but that's whom I assume he is referring to.

Yep, that is what I meant.

Thomas1621
Jan 10th 2009, 09:47 PM
You say "Begotten of God because they became believers"

I say that they are born again "not by natural generation nor by human choice nor by a man's decision but of God"

I didn't write the gospel but it is clear that some chose to believe and others did not and the ones who chose to believe were begotten by the Father... born again through the Father. It doesn't get any more direct than it is written... ;)

EarlyCall
Jan 10th 2009, 11:46 PM
did u even read my response to her that she actually saw as fair?:

No I didn't. I never saw your post or if she quoted you, your post then. I didn't have you in mind. I felt her post presented a tremendous argument against what Yuker is arguing.

"No way. Adam and Eve did not have a sin nature. Adam and Eve had free will. They could choose God or not, beause they were sinless. They were not bound by sin and its effects. They were in the presence and constant relationship with God in a sinless Paradise.

I completely agree with this.

Adam and Eve chose sin because they had the ability to choose, not because they were evil.

Absolutely. I agree.

However unlike Adam and Eve, we are wrought in iniquity. We are under the curse. Through one man death spread to all. We are not born in a sinless perfect relationship to God like Adam and Eve. Our hearts our desperately wicked. We go out speaking lies from the womb. As Jesus says, whoever commits sin is a slave to sin. ONce Adam used his free will to sin, he bacme a slave to it. This doesnt mean that we dont have free will, its just that our free will operates in a state of being enslaved to sin and our hearts are cold and stony. We need new hearts so we can use our free will to love God. Once we are set free from bondage we can now use our free will to love God"

I also agree with all of this.

Adam did not have an evil will but he did have ability to do evil. Without ability to do evil he would be a robot. Adam exercised his ability to do evil and thus became a slave to sin. Adam did indeed have true free will. Because he was not a slave to sin he was able to freely choose God. But free will is like a steak knife. It can be used for good or used to kill someone. Adams free will was not evil but it could used to do evil. Adam did not sin because of an evil heart, he sinned out of his free will to choose good or evil

Here to I completely agree with you.

Again, I didn't read your post but only the one I quoted. When I read it, it seemed to me to be a perfect argument against all Yuker is arguing. Which proves context is important. :)

So I apologize for the misunderstanding. I took what the poster said to mean that in fact every day Adam and Eve did not sin, they were choosing not to sin through free will. That is actually something I said in an earlier post. Perhaps I misunderstood the poster. You and I are on the same page from everything you've said above.

divaD
Jan 11th 2009, 12:09 AM
I took what the poster said to mean that in fact every day Adam and Eve did not
sin, they were choosing not to sin through free will. That is actually something I said in an earlier post. Perhaps I
misunderstood the poster.


Actually, that was also pretty much what I meant, the same thing as you. You weren't misunderstanding me. But I have to admit, when reformedct explains things, it becomes somewhat apparent that perhaps he's not coming to the conclusions that he appears to be coming to.

Walstib
Jan 11th 2009, 01:16 AM
Is God powerful and sovereign enough to grant freedom of thought to man?

I have stretched out My hands all day long to a rebellious people, Who walk in a way that is not good, According to their own thoughts; (Isa 65:2 NKJV)

In peace,
Joe

HankZ
Jan 11th 2009, 01:57 AM
I didn't write the gospel but it is clear that some chose to believe and others did not and the ones who chose to believe were begotten by the Father... born again through the Father. It doesn't get any more direct than it is written... ;)

Hi :wave:, Thomas1621. I'm glad to see you.

I agree, that scripture is very clear. There are many passages where God is said to have chosen, predestined, called and elected certain people. Saul made a choice to pursicute all who followed Jesus, but Jesus called him and gave him a new heart. John the Babtist was given the Holy Spirit while still in Elezibeth's womb. This is only 2 of many examples, but neither of these men made a choice, they had simply been chosen by God.

Thomas1621
Jan 11th 2009, 03:01 AM
Hi :wave:, Thomas1621. I'm glad to see you.

I agree, that scripture is very clear. There are many passages where God is said to have chosen, predestined, called and elected certain people. Saul made a choice to pursicute all who followed Jesus, but Jesus called him and gave him a new heart. John the Babtist was given the Holy Spirit while still in Elezibeth's womb. This is only 2 of many examples, but neither of these men made a choice, they had simply been chosen by God.

Hi Hank, its good to see you too, buddy. Hope you had a Blessed Christmas season. :)
There's no question that God's will shall be done and by those He elects to perform His special tasks, no doubt. But you do know there is a difference from these cases to the average person. We just have to recognize He primarily desires us to come to Him freely and in love as well. If you think about it, these men were chosen to bring the word of God to all for exactly the reason of offering choice by free will. Otherwise He wouldn't have needed them to teach others about God and proclaim to them the need to repent. He very easily could have lit up the whole earth and told everyone to believe and accept Him without choice. But yes, your right that there are those destined or chosen when God deems it to be.

HankZ
Jan 11th 2009, 05:34 AM
Hi Hank, its good to see you too, buddy. Hope you had a Blessed Christmas season. :)
There's no question that God's will shall be done and by those He elects to perform His special tasks, no doubt. But you do know there is a difference from these cases to the average person. We just have to recognize He primarily desires us to come to Him freely and in love as well. If you think about it, these men were chosen to bring the word of God to all for exactly the reason of offering choice by free will. Otherwise He wouldn't have needed them to teach others about God and proclaim to them the need to repent. He very easily could have lit up the whole earth and told everyone to believe and accept Him without choice. But yes, your right that there are those destined or chosen when God deems it to be.

I don't know of a difference between how God has chosen people in the past and the people chosen today for salvation.

Ephisians 1: 11 11"In him we were also chosen,[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%201:1-99&version=31#fen-NIV-29202e)] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will"
1Peter 2:9 9But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

Yukerboy
Jan 11th 2009, 11:42 AM
I didn't write the gospel but it is clear that some chose to believe and others did not and the ones who chose to believe were begotten by the Father... born again through the Father. It doesn't get any more direct than it is written...

And when I said they are born again "not by natural generation nor by human choice nor by a man's decision but of God", I was using the Scripture you posted.

To say that there is free will is to say that Revelation is a possibility and not a prophecy.

EarlyCall
Jan 11th 2009, 12:48 PM
Actually, that was also pretty much what I meant, the same thing as you. You weren't misunderstanding me. But I have to admit, when reformedct explains things, it becomes somewhat apparent that perhaps he's not coming to the conclusions that he appears to be coming to.

Ah, that's good to know. Thank you for further clarification. The nature of the medium itself often contributes to misunderstandings.

reformedct
Jan 11th 2009, 06:03 PM
Here to I completely agree with you.

Again, I didn't read your post but only the one I quoted. When I read it, it seemed to me to be a perfect argument against all Yuker is arguing. Which proves context is important. :)

So I apologize for the misunderstanding. I took what the poster said to mean that in fact every day Adam and Eve did not sin, they were choosing not to sin through free will. That is actually something I said in an earlier post. Perhaps I misunderstood the poster. You and I are on the same page from everything you've said above.

haha thanks. sorry i came off a little angry in that post.:blush:

divaD
Jan 11th 2009, 06:22 PM
To say that there is free will is to say that Revelation is a possibility and not a prophecy.



Yukerboy, you're just looking at it all wrong. To say that there is free will, and in order for God to fullfill prophecies in spite of that..well..that proves there is indeed a God. Only God would be able to pull that off. Quit using your finite reasoning in order to try and understand how God does thing. His ways are not our ways. That's what makes Him God..He can easily do what seems impossible or unreasonable to us. Dare to think outside of the box, my friend.

Gregg
Jan 11th 2009, 07:16 PM
And when I said they are born again "not by natural generation nor by human choice nor by a man's decision but of God", I was using the Scripture you posted.

To say that there is free will is to say that Revelation is a possibility and not a prophecy.

Revelation 21 tells me that he will give water to those who ask. Not to those who he forced to ask. It is after I ask that he gives me the power to endure. I was literally on my knees begging him to reveal himself. He did not forsake me because I was an arrogant sinner to start with. He did not forsake me when I turned away from my childhood upbringing and became agnostic. He took the evil that I chose and made something good out of it.

Yukerboy
Jan 11th 2009, 07:37 PM
Revelation 21 tells me that he will give water to those who ask. Not to those who he forced to ask. It is after I ask that he gives me the power to endure. I was literally on my knees begging him to reveal himself. He did not forsake me because I was an arrogant sinner to start with. He did not forsake me when I turned away from my childhood upbringing and became agnostic. He took the evil that I chose and made something good out of it.

Who asks for the life giving water? The born again or the condemned?

Who decides who is born again? God or man's will/decision?

Of course, those who ask will receive water. Those who ask are those that are born again by God's choice, not born again due to their own choices or will.

If salvation depended on man's will, then no one would have salvation.

Sirus
Jan 11th 2009, 08:59 PM
And when I said they are born again "not by natural generation nor by human choice nor by a man's decision but of God", I was using the Scripture you posted.Yes, but your application is not in context. It plainly says
-as many as received him
-to them that believe on his name

The point is that it is God's purpose, will, and plan of redemption through the mystery of Christ hidden since the foundation of the world when the Lamb of God was slain that is now revealed that man be born again. Again, it can't mean man has no part;
-as many as received him
-to them that believe on his name

Thomas1621
Jan 11th 2009, 10:03 PM
And when I said they are born again "not by natural generation nor by human choice nor by a man's decision but of God", I was using the Scripture you posted.

To say that there is free will is to say that Revelation is a possibility and not a prophecy.

Then I say you should use all of it and tell me what you come up with. It say their is no free will is to say all that Jesus taught and all that the apostles taught in His name and to His direction was a waste of time and effort on their part. You would benefit from reading all the Gospel without disregarding, then see what you come up with for yourself. You base your understanding on excerpts instead of the entire verses and can easily misunderstand. I am not putting you down, but you can not disregard what doesn't fit your way of thinking.

Yukerboy
Jan 11th 2009, 11:02 PM
Then I say you should use all of it and tell me what you come up with. It say their is no free will is to say all that Jesus taught and all that the apostles taught in His name and to His direction was a waste of time and effort on their part. You would benefit from reading all the Gospel without disregarding, then see what you come up with for yourself. You base your understanding on excerpts instead of the entire verses and can easily misunderstand. I am not putting you down, but you can not disregard what doesn't fit your way of thinking.

I can say I agree with all of it.

None of the Scripture conflicts with what I say, but if you say being born again is a result of man's choice, you then conflict with Scripture, which is your right

Thomas1621
Jan 12th 2009, 01:00 PM
I can say I agree with all of it.

None of the Scripture conflicts with what I say, but if you say being born again is a result of man's choice, you then conflict with Scripture, which is your right

It is possible the way I am interpreting what you refer to as "born again" is misunderstood so would you mind explaining how you refer to this? That is to ask what does a non-believer go through that leads to this state of being in God?

Yukerboy
Jan 12th 2009, 01:55 PM
It is possible the way I am interpreting what you refer to as "born again" is misunderstood so would you mind explaining how you refer to this? That is to ask what does a non-believer go through that leads to this state of being in God?

Process, result.

We all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. There are none righteous, no one seeks after God.

Then, the Holy Spirit gives birth to the spirit of those who are born again. They become God's children forever.

There was no choice involved. We may feel like it was a choice, but I didn't become born again by being smarter than others, or by being more spiritually attuned to my senses than others, or that I was more righteous than others.

No one chooses to be born.

HankZ
Jan 12th 2009, 02:01 PM
It is possible the way I am interpreting what you refer to as "born again" is misunderstood so would you mind explaining how you refer to this? That is to ask what does a non-believer go through that leads to this state of being in God?

Thomas1621,
To add my 2 cents to this question, I think it would be best if we started in John 3:1-8. Paying very close attention to verse 8 in the context of the passage. Nicodemus had all the knowledge to understand that Jesus was from God, but that is not how one recieves salvation. Being born again in the Spirit is the only way. "Born-again" is what Jesus said, Yukerboy is totally staying within the context of scripture.

Thomas1621
Jan 12th 2009, 03:25 PM
Here again I point out that Nicodemus was pursuing better understanding, to learn what Jesus meant and how one can accomplish this. Taking the verse further, it is clear, choices must be made to learn and accept our Lord, to be baptized then born of the Holy Spirit. Once you have made that commitment to accept God, being reborn may then take place.
Take note to the use of the word “might” in the words Jesus spoke to Nicodemus and refer to the translated interpretation that has been handed down through Biblical history. This is spoken attesting to the choices people will make. At some point in time you yourself had to take initiative to pursue further knowledge that led you to deciding you wanted to be devoted to the will of God. It is correct that no one can through their own bring the Holy Spirit within them but they must make the choice to devote themselves to the will of God before the Holy Spirit will determijne their worthiness to enter them.

9 “…Nicodemus answered and said to him, "How can this happen?" 10 Jesus answered and said to him, "You are the teacher of Israel and you do not understand this? 11 Amen, amen, I say to you, we speak of what we know and we testify to what we have seen, but you people do not accept our testimony. 12 If I tell you about earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you about heavenly things? 13 No one has gone up to heaven except the one who has come down from heaven, the Son of Man. 14 And just as Moses lifted up 5 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$3RJ) the serpent in the desert, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 6 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$3RK) so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life." 16 For God so loved the world that he gave 7 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$3RL) his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn 8 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$3RM) the world, but that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him will not be condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 9 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$3RN) And this is the verdict, that the light came into the world, but people preferred darkness to light, because their works were evil.”
Historically, this is the interpretation offered from the beginning of the Bible.
[15] Eternal life: used here for the first time in John, this term stresses quality of life rather than duration.
[16] Gave: as a gift in the incarnation, and also "over to death" in the crucifixion; cf ⇒ (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_PYW.HTM#NTLET.ROM.8.32) Romans 8:32.
[17-19] Condemn: the Greek root means both judgment and condemnation. Jesus' purpose is to save, but his coming provokes judgment; some condemn themselves by turning from the light.
[19] Judgment is not only future but is partially realized here and now.

Yukerboy
Jan 12th 2009, 03:42 PM
Here again I point out that Nicodemus was pursuing better understanding, to learn what Jesus meant and how one can accomplish this. Taking the verse further, it is clear, choices must be made to learn and accept our Lord, to be baptized then born of the Holy Spirit. Once you have made that commitment to accept God, being reborn may then take place.
Take note to the use of the word “might” in the words Jesus spoke to Nicodemus and refer to the translated interpretation that has been handed down through Biblical history. This is spoken attesting to the choices people will make. At some point in time you yourself had to take initiative to pursue further knowledge that led you to deciding you wanted to be devoted to the will of God. It is correct that no one can through their own bring the Holy Spirit within them but they must make the choice to devote themselves to the will of God before the Holy Spirit will determijne their worthiness to enter them.

9 “…Nicodemus answered and said to him, "How can this happen?" 10 Jesus answered and said to him, "You are the teacher of Israel and you do not understand this? 11 Amen, amen, I say to you, we speak of what we know and we testify to what we have seen, but you people do not accept our testimony. 12 If I tell you about earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you about heavenly things? 13 No one has gone up to heaven except the one who has come down from heaven, the Son of Man. 14 And just as Moses lifted up 5 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$3RJ) the serpent in the desert, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 6 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$3RK) so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life." 16 For God so loved the world that he gave 7 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$3RL) his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn 8 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$3RM) the world, but that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him will not be condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 9 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$3RN) And this is the verdict, that the light came into the world, but people preferred darkness to light, because their works were evil.”
Historically, this is the interpretation offered from the beginning of the Bible.
[15] Eternal life: used here for the first time in John, this term stresses quality of life rather than duration.
[16] Gave: as a gift in the incarnation, and also "over to death" in the crucifixion; cf ⇒ (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_PYW.HTM#NTLET.ROM.8.32) Romans 8:32.
[17-19] Condemn: the Greek root means both judgment and condemnation. Jesus' purpose is to save, but his coming provokes judgment; some condemn themselves by turning from the light.
[19] Judgment is not only future but is partially realized here and now.

"chosen by Christ to know God. (Matthew 11:27, Luke 10:22)"

To know God's will, you must know God. To know God, it must be Christ that chose you.


At some point in time you yourself had to take initiative to pursue further knowledge that led you to deciding you wanted to be devoted to the will of God.

If that were the case, then Iguess you had more initiative than some, and you have something to boast of. Good on you!

Myself, I took no initiative. I did nothing of my own to come to salvation. God gave me grace and I thank Him. He gave me that grace through faith I had in Him and I thank Him. Even that faith I had was given to me by Him, and I thank Him.

John146
Jan 12th 2009, 03:55 PM
You are right. I did forget. He was talking to the 11 disciples.

John 13:18 “I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me

John 13:30 he (Judas) then went out immediately. And it was night.Okay, that's true, but Jesus did say earlier that He chose even Judas Iscariot.

John 6
70Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 71He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

So, again, Jesus was not speaking in John 15:16 in terms of being chosen to salvation without being given any choice to repent and believe or not. He was speaking in terms of choosing them to be His closest disciples while it wasn't their choice for that to be the case.

John146
Jan 12th 2009, 04:03 PM
Yes, but your application is not in context. It plainly says
-as many as received him
-to them that believe on his name

The point is that it is God's purpose, will, and plan of redemption through the mystery of Christ hidden since the foundation of the world when the Lamb of God was slain that is now revealed that man be born again. Again, it can't mean man has no part;
-as many as received him
-to them that believe on his nameExactly. To receive Him and to believe on His name requires action on our part. An act of faith and surrender.

The Greek word for "received" in John 1:12 is lambanō (Strong's G2983). It means "to take" and can mean "to receive what is offered", "not to refuse or reject" and "to receive a person, give him access to one's self". Seems to me that there is a choice between either receiving Him or rejecting Him and that a person does not just receive Him automatically without willfully putting their faith and trust in Him.

John146
Jan 12th 2009, 04:17 PM
Is God powerful and sovereign enough to grant freedom of thought to man?

I have stretched out My hands all day long to a rebellious people, Who walk in a way that is not good, According to their own thoughts; (Isa 65:2 NKJV)

In peace,
JoeYes, He is. Why would God reach out to those people if there was no chance for them to choose to repent? Why would He take no pleasure in their death while desiring that they would have instead turned from their wickedness if He didn't give them any choice to do so?

Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

How can anyone conclude that people have no choice in the matter when verses like these show that God clearly cares about those people and reaches out to them while desiring that they turn from their wicked ways? If they don't turn from their wicked ways, who else is to blame but them? They certainly would not be able to say that they had no ability to repent and that's why they didn't. If they didn't have that ability then why would God bother reaching out to them and why would He rather they turn from their ways instead of die in their wicked rebellious state?

divaD
Jan 12th 2009, 04:30 PM
I did nothing of my own to come to salvation.

He gave me that grace through faith I had in Him and I thank Him.



But I thought you stated that you personally did nothing of your own to come to salvation? Who is that 'I' referring to in the bold? It sure looks like somebody did something here through faith that they had in Him. You're only fooling yourself if you honestly don't think we do anything in order to be saved.

HankZ
Jan 12th 2009, 04:39 PM
Here again I point out that Nicodemus was pursuing better understanding, to learn what Jesus meant and how one can accomplish this. Taking the verse further, it is clear, choices must be made to learn and accept our Lord, to be baptized then born of the Holy Spirit. Once you have made that commitment to accept God, being reborn may then take place.
Take note to the use of the word “might” in the words Jesus spoke to Nicodemus and refer to the translated interpretation that has been handed down through Biblical history. This is spoken attesting to the choices people will make. At some point in time you yourself had to take initiative to pursue further knowledge that led you to deciding you wanted to be devoted to the will of God. It is correct that no one can through their own bring the Holy Spirit within them but they must make the choice to devote themselves to the will of God before the Holy Spirit will determijne their worthiness to enter them.

9 “…Nicodemus answered and said to him, "How can this happen?" 10 Jesus answered and said to him, "You are the teacher of Israel and you do not understand this? 11 Amen, amen, I say to you, we speak of what we know and we testify to what we have seen, but you people do not accept our testimony. 12 If I tell you about earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you about heavenly things? 13 No one has gone up to heaven except the one who has come down from heaven, the Son of Man. 14 And just as Moses lifted up 5 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$3RJ) the serpent in the desert, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 6 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$3RK) so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life." 16 For God so loved the world that he gave 7 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$3RL) his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn 8 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$3RM) the world, but that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him will not be condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 9 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$3RN) And this is the verdict, that the light came into the world, but people preferred darkness to light, because their works were evil.”
Historically, this is the interpretation offered from the beginning of the Bible.
[15] Eternal life: used here for the first time in John, this term stresses quality of life rather than duration.
[16] Gave: as a gift in the incarnation, and also "over to death" in the crucifixion; cf ⇒ (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_PYW.HTM#NTLET.ROM.8.32) Romans 8:32.
[17-19] Condemn: the Greek root means both judgment and condemnation. Jesus' purpose is to save, but his coming provokes judgment; some condemn themselves by turning from the light.
[19] Judgment is not only future but is partially realized here and now.

To examine a word that may or may not have been translated correctly, we should probably also examine words such as;
Predestined-
Chosen-
Called-
Elected-

to have a better understanding of how one attains salvation.

Yukerboy
Jan 12th 2009, 05:12 PM
But I thought you stated that you personally did nothing of your own to come to salvation? Who is that 'I' referring to in the bold? It sure looks like somebody did something here through faith that they had in Him. You're only fooling yourself if you honestly don't think we do anything in order to be saved.


I think you misunderstood what I posted.

"Even that faith I had was given to me by Him, and I thank Him. "

Yukerboy
Jan 12th 2009, 05:15 PM
Okay, that's true, but Jesus did say earlier that He chose even Judas Iscariot.

John 6
70Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 71He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

So, again, Jesus was not speaking in John 15:16 in terms of being chosen to salvation without being given any choice to repent and believe or not. He was speaking in terms of choosing them to be His closest disciples while it wasn't their choice for that to be the case.

John 15:16 was Christ talking to the 11 disciples and is applicable to the church. We did not choose Christ, Christ chose us.

John 6:70 was specifically for the 12, and yet Jesus knew that Judas would betray him.

Thus, we can say definitively that Christ did choose Him to be an apostle, but did not choose Him for salvation.

If our God wanted Judas to be saved, then Judas would be saved.

Let's not confuse one issue with the other.

Yukerboy
Jan 12th 2009, 05:18 PM
To examine a word that may or may not have been translated correctly, we should probably also examine words such as;
Predestined-
Chosen-
Called-
Elected-

to have a better understanding of how one attains salvation.

Predestined = God determining the saved before the events unfold for them to be saved.

Chosen = Few are chosen.

Called = All are called.

Elected = the born again.

divaD
Jan 12th 2009, 05:33 PM
OK, to misunderstand is one thing, but to intentionally misquote me is another.

"Even that faith I had was given to me by Him, and I thank Him. "

Don't quote one sentence and say "see?" when the following sentence proves wrong the fallacy of saying faith is from ourselves.



See there is where you are falsely accusing. I did not intentionally misquote you. Perhaps I may have misundersttod you, but I don't intentionally do anything that would be intentionally deceitful. I feel that you owe me an apology.

John146
Jan 12th 2009, 05:58 PM
John 15:16 was Christ talking to the 11 disciples and is applicable to the church. We did not choose Christ, Christ chose us.I disagree. If it was applicable to the church then why can't we find the same concept taught specifically regarding the church anywhere else?


John 6:70 was specifically for the 12, and yet Jesus knew that Judas would betray him.

Thus, we can say definitively that Christ did choose Him to be an apostle, but did not choose Him for salvation.Just like He chose the others to be apostles. It's your opinion that He chose them not only to be apostles but also to be saved, but if that was the case then Judas would have been saved as well.


If our God wanted Judas to be saved, then Judas would be saved.

Let's not confuse one issue with the other.God desires all people to be saved (1 Tim 2:4), including Judas Iscariot. But he wasn't. Why? Because God didn't want him to be? No. It's because people must choose to believe or not.

God doesn't take any pleasure in the death of the wicked like Judas, but instead wants them to turn from their evil ways.

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

EarlyCall
Jan 12th 2009, 06:08 PM
No one can come to the Father but by the Holy Spirit, but that is the offering of the gift of salvation and the working on the heart by the Holy Spirit, but we must then choose freely.

Why is it some people take the very words of God by themselves and leave off there? In other words, they ignore completely the author of the words.

How so? In thinking we have no free will and no choice. Is that the nature of God? Does that match His character? I think not.

God loves us enough to die for us. He freely chose to do this. This reveals His nature and character, His motives. Not forced, not coerced and not required but freely done out of love.

Why then would we think that such a God would violate His own nature, character and motivation and not want us in return to freely choose to accept His great gift so freely given? That's seems odd to me. That seems to run counter to God's very nature.

Did I ask or demand my wife marry me? I asked. What comfort would there be to me if I gave her no choice in the matter? What love from her would be genuine towards me? My love towards her then would be unfulfilled and incomplete. This is true with god's love towards and for us in that if ours is not freely given in return just as His was freely given, it holds no meaning.

The Holy Spirit works our hearts and minds and brings us to an understanding and a place where we can accept Christ freely and with our hearts and minds out of genuine love for a God that so loved us. Anything less than this is disingenuous at best and empty and leaves God's love for us unrequited.

Thomas1621
Jan 12th 2009, 08:05 PM
It almost seems that some people are afraid to acknowledge their God gifted free will. As though if they have free will that means they will be held accountable if they fall to sin and are not guaranteed salvation without a responsible choice or sincere effort. The entire Bible verifies without any reasonable question that man has and maintains free will. The very fact that Jesus Himself traveled and proclaimed the word of God and that the kingdom of heaven was at hand…. If there were no choice to be made in accepting God, for what purpose were all their efforts made when all that needed to be done was flash everyone into obedience?
What was the purpose for Jesus establishing His “teaching” Church to proceed throughout the ages to His return if there was no free will?
And what is the point in final judgment if God is the one who will steer everyone who is saved without his or her choice?
How can anyone reasonably and credibly excuse man’s ability to choose knowing it is in itself a gift from God and all these efforts where to provide us with the knowledge to be able to willfully accept Him?
And what does it take for some to accept they are called to “Follow” Him in charity and humility?
To Yukerboy,
"Don't quote one sentence and say "see?" when the following sentence proves wrong the fallacy of saying faith is from ourselves."

What you complained about in your own words in the above quote is what you are doing with the gospel.

Yukerboy
Jan 12th 2009, 09:03 PM
See there is where you are falsely accusing. I did not intentionally misquote you. Perhaps I may have misundersttod you, but I don't intentionally do anything that would be intentionally deceitful. I feel that you owe me an apology.

I apologize


I disagree. If it was applicable to the church then why can't we find the same concept taught specifically regarding the church anywhere else?

members of the church are:
chosen by Christ to know God. (Matthew 11:27, Luke 10:22)
put in the world by Christ (Matthew 13:24)
the only ones chosen from those invited (Matthew 22:14)
chosen by God (Mark 13:20, Romans 8:33)
given the right to become children of God from Christ (John 1:12)...note that even the right to become children of God is given from God. It is a gift, not a decision.
not born children of God by human decision (John 1:13)
given life by Christ because it pleases Christ (John 5:21)
given to Christ by God (John 6:39)
Enabled to come to Christ by God (John 6:65)
chosen by Christ (John 15:16)
unable to choose Christ (John 15:16)
been granted repentance by God (Acts 11:18)
Predestined by God (Romans 8:30)
Are appointed by God for eternal life (Acts 13:48)
Are in Christ Jesus because of God (1 Corinthians 1:30)
no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him (Matthew 11:27)
For many are invited, but few are chosen. (Matthew 22:14)
But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them (Mark 13:20)
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit (John 15:16)
you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. (John 15:19)
the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it(Romans 8:20)
he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.(Ephesians 1:4)
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,(Ephesians 1:11)
from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. (2 Thessalonians 2:13)
For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, (1 Thessalonians 1:4)
He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created. (James 1:18)


Just like He chose the others to be apostles. It's your opinion that He chose them not only to be apostles but also to be saved, but if that was the case then Judas would have been saved as well.

No, Christ chose the apostles and the church.

If John 15 doesn't apply to the church, then rip it out.

John 6 was what Christ told the apostles. He chose the apostles to be apostles, but one of them was a devil. John 15, He chose the 11 and the church to go out and bear fruit that will last. This was not just the disciples.


God desires all people to be saved (1 Tim 2:4), including Judas Iscariot. But he wasn't. Why? Because God didn't want him to be? No. It's because people must choose to believe or not.

It's because God didn't will him to be.

If God willed Judas to be saved, then Judas would be saved.

God's will and His desires are separate.


It almost seems that some people are afraid to acknowledge their God gifted free will. As though if they have free will that means they will be held accountable if they fall to sin and are not guaranteed salvation without a responsible choice or sincere effort. The entire Bible verifies without any reasonable question that man has and maintains free will.

Yep. free will is right in Chapter 6 of I Pretendus. If you look at the next chapter, you will also find Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and Pre Tribulation. :rolleyes:

You will never find Free Will in the Bible, but you will see a lot of choosing being done by God.


What you complained about in your own words in the above quote is what you are doing with the gospel.

Fine, you show me the verse that says free will. I shall show you the verses (see above) where God chose.

divaD
Jan 12th 2009, 09:22 PM
For what?

Are you serious? For giving the impression that I would intentionally misquote you in order to be deceitful. I don't appreciete that because it's untrue. It was just something that I apparently overlooked, an honest mistake. I just told you that it was unintentional. If my word is not good enough, then I guess it just isn't. Let's just drop it then. I've spoken my peace. The Lord knows the truth of the matter, that's all that counts.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 12th 2009, 09:23 PM
I don't think that either is wrong. We cannot put God in a box.

Both my father and myself, were chosen by God.
My mother, my wife and my three children all made a decision for Christ.

I have also seen many others make a decision for Christ, but that does not negate my father's or my experience.

There are many instances in scripture, were some did not chose to believe, but were brought to belief. The adulteress woman, The publican, The man who fell among thieves, and Lazarus

John146
Jan 12th 2009, 09:35 PM
members of the church are:
chosen by Christ to know God. (Matthew 11:27, Luke 10:22)
put in the world by Christ (Matthew 13:24)
the only ones chosen from those invited (Matthew 22:14)You quoted only Matthew 22:14. Did you not read Matthew 22:1-13 for context?

1And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
2The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

Notice it says they would not come. It doesn't say they could not come. If they couldn't come then they wouldn't have been invited. They could have, but they willfully refused. They were called to salvation but refused to answer the call with repentance and faith.


chosen by God (Mark 13:20, Romans 8:33)
given the right to become children of God from Christ (John 1:12)...note that even the right to become children of God is given from God. It is a gift, not a decision.Wait a minute. I think you need to take a closer look.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Notice He only gave the power to those who received Him and believed on His name. Did you somehow miss that part?


not born children of God by human decision (John 1:13)That's not what this verse is saying. You're taking it out of context.

13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

This is not saying that they were not born as a result of a decision they made about Christ. This is saying they were not born of their own blood or flesh or anything of themselves, but were born of God. He's talking about spiritual birth and contrasting it with human birth. That in no way means that they didn't have to make a decision about Christ.


given life by Christ because it pleases Christ (John 5:21)You need to learn to read surrounding verses for context.

21For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Who does the Son will to quicken or make spiritually alive? The answer is in verse 24: the ones who hear His word and believe on Him who sent Him.


given to Christ by God (John 6:39)Again, you are missing the context.

39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Who are the ones that are given to Christ? The ones who believe on Him.


Enabled to come to Christ by God (John 6:65)Those who believe are enabled


chosen by Christ (John 15:16)
unable to choose Christ (John 15:16)Already went over this. They were chosen to be His closest disciples. Judas was chosen as well, but was not saved, so this doesn't have anything to do with being chosen to salvation while saying that they had no choice in the matter.


been granted repentance by God (Acts 11:18)Another verse you're taking out of context. This verse has to do with the fact that the Gentiles also were given the opportunity for eternal life through repentance and it was not only for the Jews.
Predestined by God (Romans 8:30)According to the foreknowledge of God. He foreknew that they would believe.


Are appointed by God for eternal life (Acts 13:48)Because He knew they would believe.


Are in Christ Jesus because of God (1 Corinthians 1:30)
no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him (Matthew 11:27)
For many are invited, but few are chosen. (Matthew 22:14)
But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them (Mark 13:20)
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit (John 15:16)
you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. (John 15:19)
the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it(Romans 8:20)
he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.(Ephesians 1:4)
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,(Ephesians 1:11)
from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. (2 Thessalonians 2:13)
For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, (1 Thessalonians 1:4)
He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created. (James 1:18)None of these deny the requirement that God places on man to repent and believe in order to be saved.


No, Christ chose the apostles and the church.

If John 15 doesn't apply to the church, then rip it out.You can rip it out of your Bible if you want, but I'll keep it.



John 6 was what Christ told the apostles. He chose the apostles to be apostles, but one of them was a devil. John 15, He chose the 11 and the church to go out and bear fruit that will last. This was not just the disciples.Of course He wants us all to bear fruit but that doesn't change that you're taking John 15:16 out of context.


It's because God didn't will him to be.

If God willed Judas to be saved, then Judas would be saved.

God's will and His desires are separate.Do you acknowledge that God desires all people to be saved as it says in 1 Timothy 2:4? If so then why wouldn't God provide a way for all people to be saved?


Yep. free will is right in Chapter 6 of I Pretendus. If you look at the next chapter, you will also find Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and Pre Tribulation. :rolleyes:This kind of statement only reflects your immaturity.


You will never find Free Will in the Bible, but you will see a lot of choosing being done by God.Explain these passages then:

Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Isaiah 66:2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word. 3He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.
4I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

Matt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

HankZ
Jan 12th 2009, 10:12 PM
It almost seems that some people are afraid to acknowledge their God gifted free will. As though if they have free will that means they will be held accountable if they fall to sin and are not guaranteed salvation without a responsible choice or sincere effort. The entire Bible verifies without any reasonable question that man has and maintains free will. The very fact that Jesus Himself traveled and proclaimed the word of God and that the kingdom of heaven was at hand…. If there were no choice to be made in accepting God, for what purpose were all their efforts made when all that needed to be done was flash everyone into obedience?
What was the purpose for Jesus establishing His “teaching” Church to proceed throughout the ages to His return if there was no free will?
And what is the point in final judgment if God is the one who will steer everyone who is saved without his or her choice?
How can anyone reasonably and credibly excuse man’s ability to choose knowing it is in itself a gift from God and all these efforts where to provide us with the knowledge to be able to willfully accept Him?
And what does it take for some to accept they are called to “Follow” Him in charity and humility?
To Yukerboy,
"Don't quote one sentence and say "see?" when the following sentence proves wrong the fallacy of saying faith is from ourselves."

What you complained about in your own words in the above quote is what you are doing with the gospel.

It's not a question of if we fall into sin because we do have a choice and we choose sin. We can't get ourselves out of sin once that choice is made. Only Jesus can Save us from our sins. Since we haven't looked at the words Predestine, Called, Chosen and Elected, let's look at the word savior;

sav·ior [sáyvyər]
(plural sav·iors)
n
rescuer: somebody who rescues somebody or something from harm or danger

Saving is done by someone else unless we partly save ourselves, then we are in need of a helper;

help·er [hélpər]
(plural help·ers)
n
assistant: somebody who helps with something, often in an informal or voluntary capacity


It seems to me, how we see salvation depends on whether Jesus is our helper or our Savior. I believe Him to be my Savior and nothing I have done or will do can change my salvation because Jesus is my Savior.

Yukerboy
Jan 12th 2009, 11:14 PM
You quoted only Matthew 22:14. Did you not read Matthew 22:1-13 for context?

1And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
2The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

Notice it says they would not come. It doesn't say they could not come. If they couldn't come then they wouldn't have been invited. They could have, but they willfully refused. They were called to salvation but refused to answer the call with repentance and faith.


Considering the Bible tells us that faith is a gift of God and repentance is something that God grants, then it was God that withheld that gift.




John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Notice He only gave the power to those who received Him and believed on His name. Did you somehow miss that part?


Never missed it, we receive Him. Who receives Him? The church. Do we receive Him out of faith from ourselves or faith from God? Ohhhhhh.



13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

This is not saying that they were not born as a result of a decision they made about Christ. This is saying they were not born of their own blood or flesh or anything of themselves, but were born of God. He's talking about spiritual birth and contrasting it with human birth. That in no way means that they didn't have to make a decision about Christ.


Then let us continue the contrast. What decision did you make to become born? Ohhhhhhh.

God gives birth to Spirit, not because they choose Him, but because He chose them.




21For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Who does the Son will to quicken or make spiritually alive? The answer is in verse 24: the ones who hear His word and believe on Him who sent Him.


True.

Who gives eyes to see and ears to hear? Was it you who found them or God that gave them to you? Ohhhhhhhhh.



39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Who are the ones that are given to Christ? The ones who believe on Him.

Those who believe are enabled


Think this through, this can be very difficult.

1. Christ raises all those the father gives Him.
2. Christ raises all those that believe on him.

Therefore? All those that believe on him were those GOD GAVE CHRIST!


Already went over this. They were chosen to be His closest disciples. Judas was chosen as well, but was not saved, so this doesn't have anything to do with being chosen to salvation while saying that they had no choice in the matter.

And Judas was not referred to in John 15:16. He wasn't even there.


Another verse you're taking out of context. This verse has to do with the fact that the Gentiles also were given the opportunity for eternal life through repentance and it was not only for the Jews. According to the foreknowledge of God. He foreknew that they would believe.

Those He foreknew, He predestined.

And it was God that appointed them eternal life, not a decision they made.


None of these deny the requirement that God places on man to repent and believe in order to be saved.

True. And those God chooses will do those requirements. Not because they chose to, but God chose them.


You can rip it out of your Bible if you want, but I'll keep it.

and continue to ignore it....



Of course He wants us all to bear fruit but that doesn't change that you're taking John 15:16 out of context.

Do you acknowledge that God desires all people to be saved as it says in 1 Timothy 2:4? If so then why wouldn't God provide a way for all people to be saved?


God's desires and His will are two different things.

He desires all to be saved, He wills some to be saved.


This kind of statement only reflects your immaturity.

Come on, it was funny. I figure if you are going to ignore John, then perhaps I Pretendus is a good book for you to start in.



Explain these passages then:

Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.


Man talking to man. To us, it seems like a choice.

I can guarantee you not one Israelite chose what they were not predestined for.


Isaiah 66:2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word. 3He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.

Of course! It is God who bound them in disobedience (Romans)


4I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

Same thing. They chose what they were predestioned to choose. They chose that which they did not hear (God gives the ears to hear). God hardens the hearts of whom He will.



Matt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.


Once again, talking desires here. They would not for they were not given to Christ by God.


John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

True. Now if world is all, then all are saved as God sent Christ to save the world.

Can God fail? If you define world as all, then Christ saved all, thus, you have universalism.


Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.


And who will? Those God chooses or those He didn't? Ohhhhhhhh.

alethos
Jan 13th 2009, 12:06 AM
He desires all to be saved, He wills some to be saved.


Following such logic either

1. God is unable to get what He desires.
or
2. God doesn't really desire all to be saved.

Yukerboy
Jan 13th 2009, 01:37 AM
Following such logic either

1. God is unable to get what He desires.
or
2. God doesn't really desire all to be saved.

Or three, God does not will for His desires to be fulfilled.

However, anyone who disagrees with me has to take 1.

Yukerboy
Jan 13th 2009, 02:39 AM
Are you serious? For giving the impression that I would intentionally misquote you in order to be deceitful. I don't appreciete that because it's untrue. It was just something that I apparently overlooked, an honest mistake. I just told you that it was unintentional. If my word is not good enough, then I guess it just isn't. Let's just drop it then. I've spoken my peace. The Lord knows the truth of the matter, that's all that counts.

No, let's not drop it.

I apologize and spoke too harshly. It's been bothering me that I said that when you meant no ill will. It's happened to me on numerous occassions also, I know it'll sound weak, but I know how you feel.

However, the sarcasm of I Pretendus still stands ;)

Thomas1621
Jan 13th 2009, 02:45 AM
What is faith? is it not believing without proof? a choice to believe or not believe in God and His word with Trust. One who doesn't believe has no faith. One with faith has chosen to believe without proof or promise.

And what is the meaning behind the story of the prodigal son? or is it a meaningless parable without a punch line? No, it is very simple. The son who takes leave of his loving father and doesn't return until he learned and made a decision based on the choices he had made. The final choice to return to His Father in repentance begging for His forgiveness. All free will. To claim anything else would be a groundless false argument. Yes some are chosen, but it is the least, the weak in spirit who will be celebrated, not the ones who proclaim their righteousness.

Matthew CH5
3 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PVE.HTM#$2WT) "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. "

poor translated lowly and humble

Thomas1621
Jan 13th 2009, 02:55 AM
It's not a question of if we fall into sin because we do have a choice and we choose sin. We can't get ourselves out of sin once that choice is made. Only Jesus can Save us from our sins. Since we haven't looked at the words Predestine, Called, Chosen and Elected, let's look at the word savior;

sav·ior [sáyvyər]
(plural sav·iors)
n
rescuer: somebody who rescues somebody or something from harm or danger

Saving is done by someone else unless we partly save ourselves, then we are in need of a helper;

help·er [hélpər]
(plural help·ers)
n
assistant: somebody who helps with something, often in an informal or voluntary capacity


It seems to me, how we see salvation depends on whether Jesus is our helper or our Savior. I believe Him to be my Savior and nothing I have done or will do can change my salvation because Jesus is my Savior.

you just said it, one chooses sin or one chooses to fight sin. However, you can repent and be forgiven sin IF you are sincerely repentant. No sin is more powerful than the Divine Mercy and Forgiveness of our Lord. The point is you have to choose and to choose willingly to devote oneself to God is more genuine than to be controlled or have no free will. It is still up to God to decide what is in your heart and if you are deserving of His salvation.
We can go back and forth all day quoting scripture but keeping it in context, there is always the will and it is the way God wished it to be. That is where honesty and sincerity come from, free will. It is one of His gifts to man.

Yukerboy
Jan 13th 2009, 02:56 AM
What is faith? is it not believing without proof? a choice to believe or not believe in God and His word with Trust. One who doesn't believe has no faith. One with faith has chosen to believe without proof or promise.

And what is the meaning behind the story of the prodigal son? or is it a meaningless parable without a punch line? No, it is very simple. The son who takes leave of his loving father and doesn't return until he learned and made a decision based on the choices he had made. The final choice to return to His Father in repentance begging for His forgiveness. All free will. To claim anything else would be a groundless false argument. Yes some are chosen, but it is the least, the weak in spirit who will be celebrated, not the ones who proclaim their righteousness.

Matthew CH5
3 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PVE.HTM#$2WT) "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. "

poor translated lowly and humble

Punchline of the Prodigal son:

"For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' So they began to celebrate."

Was dead....is alive again....let's think this one through.

Thomas: A ship passes by a drowning man. The captain throws a life preserver out to the man. All he has to do is reach up and grab the life preserver. Once he does, he will be saved.

Yukerboy: A ship passes by a drowned man. The captain pulls the dead man aboard the ship and breathes life into him. That man had no choice, he could not fight off the life given him, nor could he beg the captain to save his life. No, it was the captain's choice.

Lost....is found....let's think this one through.

Thomas: A shephard has some sheep. A wolf comes among the sheep. The shephard sees the wolf and cries out "you are a lost sheep". "Be good and you will become a sheep again." The wolf chooses to be good, not attacking the other sheep and then magically turns into one.

Yukerboy: A shephard has some sheep. One of the sheep goes off on his own. The shephard reaches out with his hook and brings the sheep back in. The sheep was the shephard's before he got lost and after he got lost. The sheep remained a sheep and will be that shephard's sheep forever. That sheep did not choose to be a sheep, but was born a sheep, chosen by the shephard.

divaD
Jan 13th 2009, 06:00 AM
No, let's not drop it.

I apologize and spoke too harshly. It's been bothering me that I said that when you meant no ill will. It's happened to me on numerous occassions also, I know it'll sound weak, but I know how you feel.

However, the sarcasm of I Pretendus still stands ;)



Hi yukerboy. Everything's cool my friend. I didn't really want you to feel bad or anything, I just didn't want you, or anyone else, to think that I resort to trickery in order to win a debate, etc. I'm not making up excuses, but I am 50 yrs old now, and honestly sometimes I tend to read things and simply overlook things at the same time. Surely we're all guilty of that from time to time.

As far as I'm concerned, none of this ever happened, it's all in the past. And I apologize as well for making such a big thing out of this.

Thomas1621
Jan 13th 2009, 11:07 AM
Punchline of the Prodigal son:

"For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' So they began to celebrate."

Was dead....is alive again....let's think this one through.

Thomas: A ship passes by a drowning man. The captain throws a life preserver out to the man. All he has to do is reach up and grab the life preserver. Once he does, he will be saved.

Yukerboy: A ship passes by a drowned man. The captain pulls the dead man aboard the ship and breathes life into him. That man had no choice, he could not fight off the life given him, nor could he beg the captain to save his life. No, it was the captain's choice.

Lost....is found....let's think this one through.

Thomas: A shephard has some sheep. A wolf comes among the sheep. The shephard sees the wolf and cries out "you are a lost sheep". "Be good and you will become a sheep again." The wolf chooses to be good, not attacking the other sheep and then magically turns into one.

Yukerboy: A shephard has some sheep. One of the sheep goes off on his own. The shephard reaches out with his hook and brings the sheep back in. The sheep was the shephard's before he got lost and after he got lost. The sheep remained a sheep and will be that shephard's sheep forever. That sheep did not choose to be a sheep, but was born a sheep, chosen by the shephard.

The fact you are missing is the father did not go out and drag his son back, the son realized through his experiences his wrongs and returned repentant of his was to his father, willingly returned on his own. Then, the son who believed himself more worthy and righteous became angered because being the one who claimed such obedience to his father was not celebrated as the son who returned.
Did you make a choice that lead you to your rebirth?

alethos
Jan 13th 2009, 11:34 AM
Or three, God does not will for His desires to be fulfilled.



Ah, I see the two wills of God theory is kicking in.