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reformedct
Jan 6th 2009, 06:36 PM
Did Adams sin cause spiritual death?
I think we can all agree that death is simply seperation from life ie God

Did the spirit of man remain pure? or was it put into bondage under sin and death as the rest of man(mind, will, actions)

What is the condition of our spirit before conversion/being born again?

Are sinners such as Adolph Hitler still someway spiritually connected to God?

RogerW
Jan 6th 2009, 07:29 PM
Did Adams sin cause spiritual death?
I think we can all agree that death is simply seperation from life ie God

Did the spirit of man remain pure? or was it put into bondage under sin and death as the rest of man(mind, will, actions)

What is the condition of our spirit before conversion/being born again?

Are sinners such as Adolph Hitler still someway spiritually connected to God?

When Paul said, "you who were dead in trespasses and sins", he wasn't speaking to a corspe. He was writing to people physically living. How are we dead in trespasses and sins, in what way are we dead...yet living and breathing?

Many Blessings,
RW

divaD
Jan 6th 2009, 07:55 PM
When Paul said, "you who were dead in trespasses and sins", he wasn't speaking to a corspe. He was writing to people physically living. How are we dead in trespasses and sins, in what way are we dead...yet living and breathing?

Many Blessings,
RW



Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

When I read this verse, I don't ask who?, but I ask why? Then I read verse 2 and 3. Now I understand why.

Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.


This would be why these were once dead in trespasses and sins. It makes no mention of being spiritually dead, but it does mention following the wrong spirit.

BCF
Jan 6th 2009, 08:07 PM
reformedct;1933180]Did Adams sin cause spiritual deat

Yes



Did the spirit of man remain pure? or was it put into bondage under sin and death as the rest of man(mind, will, actions)

No it did not remain pure.



What is the condition of our spirit before conversion/being born again?

Dead to the Word of God.


Are sinners such as Adolph Hitler still someway spiritually connected to God?

I don't think so.

I have an appointment that I need to keep right now... but I will be back later to give scripture for everything that I am saying.

God Bless,

Dave

theBelovedDisciple
Jan 6th 2009, 08:31 PM
Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

When I read this verse, I don't ask who?, but I ask why? Then I read verse 2 and 3. Now I understand why.

Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.


This would be why these were once dead in trespasses and sins. It makes no mention of being spiritually dead, but it does mention following the wrong spirit.


Though one be physically alive.. yet 'dead' in trespasses and sins...

what does that mean?

One is not physically dead..... but 'spiritually' dead?

'dead' in trespasses and sin..

When Christ 'quickens' one at the New Birth.. being born again.. what does He quicken? an 'alive' spirit? or is it a spirit/soul that is dead in trespasses and sins...


When He saved me.. and I was Born Again Feb 3 1994... He 'quickened' my spirit... Oh believe me He did.. prior to that my spirit was dead in trespasses and sins... He not only 'quickened' but 'set it free'... Amen and amen and amen... Praise Him for what He has done..

divaD
Jan 6th 2009, 09:52 PM
Though one be physically alive.. yet 'dead' in trespasses and sins...

what does that mean?

[QUOTE=theBelovedDisciple;1933369]When Christ 'quickens' one at the New Birth.. being born again.. what does He quicken? an 'alive' spirit? or is it a spirit/soul
that is dead in trespasses and sins...


Perhaps 1 Peter 3: can shed some light on this.


1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:


Unless I'm reading this wrong, it states that Christ was put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit. Does this then mean that He was spiritually dead? Wouldn't quickened in the Spirit mean the same thing for Christ, as for us? If it means that our spirit was dead, then shouldn't it also mean that His spirit was dead?

IMO, it seems that it was the flesh that was dead in trespass and sin in Eph 2, because this is what Christ put to death, the flesh. Then He was made alive by the Spirit.

RogerW
Jan 6th 2009, 11:32 PM
[quote=theBelovedDisciple;1933369]Though one be physically alive.. yet 'dead' in trespasses and sins...

what does that mean?

Perhaps 1 Peter 3: can shed some light on this.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Unless I'm reading this wrong, it states that Christ was put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit. Does this then mean that He was spiritually dead? Wouldn't quickened in the Spirit mean the same thing for Christ, as for us? If it means that our spirit was dead, then shouldn't it also mean that His spirit was dead?

IMO, it seems that it was the flesh that was dead in trespass and sin in Eph 2, because this is what Christ put to death, the flesh. Then He was made alive by the Spirit.

Hi Diva,

In Eph Paul is writing to people, who are physically alive, telling them they were "dead in trespasses and sins." First Peter says Christ was "put to death in the flesh". In other words Christ really died physically on the cross. But after three days Christ was resurrected from physical death to physical life, by the Spirit, and He was seen by many witnesses to prove this. How is the flesh dead in trespasses and sins prior to being quickened by the Spirit in Eph 2? Are you sure it is the flesh that is made alive by the Spirit in Eph 2?

Many Blessings,
RW

reformedct
Jan 6th 2009, 11:49 PM
Though one be physically alive.. yet 'dead' in trespasses and sins...

what does that mean?

One is not physically dead..... but 'spiritually' dead?

'dead' in trespasses and sin..

When Christ 'quickens' one at the New Birth.. being born again.. what does He quicken? an 'alive' spirit? or is it a spirit/soul that is dead in trespasses and sins...


When He saved me.. and I was Born Again Feb 3 1994... He 'quickened' my spirit... Oh believe me He did.. prior to that my spirit was dead in trespasses and sins... He not only 'quickened' but 'set it free'... Amen and amen and amen... Praise Him for what He has done..


Thats a great testimony. I remember the day God did something inside of me. Everything in my life prior to that was a blur of confusion and folly. I never ever had a strong desire to read the Bible besides feeling guilty about sin and trying to get some good points by occasionally reading it. After my new birth i have been so hungry for the Word everyday

theBelovedDisciple
Jan 7th 2009, 12:01 AM
One who is dead in trespasses and sins needs the 'new birth'.. being born again.. being quickened by the Spirit. Why would somebody who is alive spiritually yet dead in trespasses and sins need to have their 'spirit' quickened.. its quickened because its 'dead in trespasses and sins.. as with the soul... the flesh returns to the dust but the spirit and soul go either 2 places after death... Christ made away to have 'new life'.. Eternal life... and this was thru the 'quickening'... Jesus the 2nd Adam was made a quickening Spirit... and its thru Him....that one is Born Again.. the spirit and soul quickened at the new birth.. being born Again.. which is done by and thru the Will of God Himself.

Can one be alive spiritually yet dead in trespasses and sins??????

divaD
Jan 7th 2009, 12:24 AM
Are you sure it is the flesh that is
made alive by the Spirit in Eph 2?

Hi Rw. If this is what I seemed to be implying, then obviously I'm being misunderstood.

If Christ died in the flesh, in which He did, then it would make no sense to say that the flesh is made alive because of it.

If Christ was made alive by the Spirit after being put to death in the flesh, then that means that we will also be made alive by the Spirit, either at the first resurrection, or if still alive, at Christ's 2nd coming.

None of us currently alive have literally obtained immortality. This is something that we hope for and wait for and believe for, thru Christ of course.



How is the flesh dead in trespasses and sins prior to being quickened by the Spirit in Eph 2?


Doesn't verse 2 and 3 tell us how?



Still, I don't think anyone got my point. If the reason that we are made alive by the Spirit is because we were spiritually dead, then this would also need to apply to Christ, since He was also made alive by the Spirit. But this can't be. When was Christ ever spiritually dead, thus needing to become spiritually alive? He was physically dead, as in the flesh, thus the need to become alive via the Spirit.

It's the flesh that sins. This is what Christ's physical death symbolized, the destroying of the flesh. It is by the Spirit that one is made alive. This was symbolized by Christ literally being quickened by the Spirit. Plain and simple, Christ is our link and only link to eternal life.

reformedct
Jan 7th 2009, 12:25 AM
Hi Rw. If this is what I seemed to be implying, then obviously I'm being misunderstood.

If Christ died in the flesh, in which He did, then it would make no sense to say that the flesh is made alive because of it.

If Christ was made alive by the Spirit after being put to death in the flesh, then that means that we will also be made alive by the Spirit, either at the first resurrection, or if still alive, at Christ's 2nd coming.

None of us currently alive have literally obtained immortality. This is something that we hope for and wait for and believe for, thru Christ of course.





Doesn't verse 2 and 3 tell us how?



Still, I don't think anyone got my point. If the reason that we are made alive by the Spirit is because we were spiritually dead, then this would also need to apply to Christ, since He was also made alive by the Spirit. But this can't be. When was Christ ever spiritually dead, thus needing to become spiritually alive? He was physically dead, as in the flesh, thus the need to become alive via the Spirit.

It's the flesh that sins. This is what Christ's physical death symbolized, the destroying of the flesh. It is by the Spirit that one is made alive. This was symbolized by Christ literally being quickened by the Spirit. Plain and simple, Christ is our link and only link to eternal life.


This is why Jesus was born of the SPirit. He was not spiritually dead because the curse is passed by man. Jesus was concieved by the Spirit, unlike the rest of mankind. We are not concieved by the spirit, we have man as fathers. Therefore we are dead. Christ was never dead but we are not Christ

alethos
Jan 7th 2009, 12:46 AM
Jesus gave us a hint to the OP when He said:

"let the dead bury their own dead." - Matt 8:22, and Luke 9:60

Since a person has to be physically alive to be able to bury someone, I believe what Jesus was saying here, is let those who are spiritually dead, but alive physically bury their own dead.

Thanks for the hint Jesus

RogerW
Jan 7th 2009, 12:55 AM
Hi Rw. If this is what I seemed to be implying, then obviously I'm being misunderstood.

If Christ died in the flesh, in which He did, then it would make no sense to say that the flesh is made alive because of it.

If Christ was made alive by the Spirit after being put to death in the flesh, then that means that we will also be made alive by the Spirit, either at the first resurrection, or if still alive, at Christ's 2nd coming.

None of us currently alive have literally obtained immortality. This is something that we hope for and wait for and believe for, thru Christ of course.

Doesn't verse 2 and 3 tell us how?

Still, I don't think anyone got my point. If the reason that we are made alive by the Spirit is because we were spiritually dead, then this would also need to apply to Christ, since He was also made alive by the Spirit. But this can't be. When was Christ ever spiritually dead, thus needing to become spiritually alive? He was physically dead, as in the flesh, thus the need to become alive via the Spirit.

It's the flesh that sins. This is what Christ's physical death symbolized, the destroying of the flesh. It is by the Spirit that one is made alive. This was symbolized by Christ literally being quickened by the Spirit. Plain and simple, Christ is our link and only link to eternal life.

It seems you are confusing being spiritually dead in trespasses and sins, with being physically dead. Obviously it is not our flesh that is quickened when we are born again...it is our spirit. How can it be our flesh, since we are physically alive? It is our spirit that must be born again of the Spirit. Before being made spiritually alive by the Spirit, we walk according to the flesh, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that works in the children of disobedience. We are like every man born in Adam, of the flesh, fulfilling our fleshly desires, and by nature children of wrath. Until we are given spiritual life by the quickening Spirit we will remain children of wrath, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and mind.

Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Once we have been made spiritually alive by the quickening Spirit, then we have received the power to have access to the Father by the life giving Spirit we possess. We have no ability to come to Christ unless we have been quickened (made spiritually alive) by the Spirit.

Many Blessings,
RW

divaD
Jan 7th 2009, 01:34 AM
It seems you are confusing being spiritually dead in trespasses and sins, with being physically dead.

Actually I'm not. I guess I sorta' see being quickened in the Spirit as pertaining to immortal life, which would occur at the first resurrection, upon Christ's return. But I have read your post(this post). IMO, it's a very good post. I don't really see anything in your post that I would disagree with. Obviously I'm having one of those days where I just can't seem to say what I'm trying to say. :)

Sirus
Jan 8th 2009, 04:36 AM
The 'dead' throughout scripture communicate with and receive from God just fine.

Before the cross Jesus said the spirit is indeed willing but the flesh is weak.

Mary said her spirit rejoiced in God her savior.

Job said there is a spirit in man that is the candle of the Lord and the Spirit gives man understanding. Jesus, the Word that all things were made by is the light that lights all men.

Paul said to will and want to do good is present.

Those are just a few off the top of my head, I can post hundreds more, but you get the idea....and from scripture. Spiritual death is not an inability or paralysis or anything that makes our spirit dysfunctional in any way.

Joe King
Jan 8th 2009, 03:09 PM
Those who are alive and not born again through Jesus are dead because they will enter everlasting death when they die.

BCF
Jan 8th 2009, 03:13 PM
Sirus;1935188 The 'dead' throughout scripture communicate with and receive from God just fine.

I disagree. For God said: "My Spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh (Genesis 6:3)"

"Male and female were created in the image of God," Genesis 1:27 tells us. Jesus tells in John 4:24 that, "God is a Spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth"

If what you are saying is true....Why would the scripture say the things that I just wrote to you, and Jesus then tell us in John 3:5-7, "5. Except a man be born of water and of Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6. That which is born of flesh is flesh; and that which is born of Spirit is spirit. 7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again."

If what you are saying is true. These scriptures I just wrote to you mean nothing.


Before the cross Jesus said the spirit is indeed willing but the flesh is weak.

I agree, Jesus did say that. But why did he say it?
Based off the scriptures that I just wrote to you, and the words that Jesus taught himself. It was not for what you are claiming for.


Mary said her spirit rejoiced in God her savior.

That's right....she did. wants again.....Why did she say it?


Job said there is a spirit in man that is the candle of the Lord and the Spirit gives man understanding. Jesus, the Word that all things were made by is the light that lights all men.

I agree here also. Job was right. The Spirit of man is the candle of the Lord. If the candle is first lit. Jesus is the word and the light. If one does not become born again...one does not have a candle that has any light.
All they would have is darkness.

Jesus said in Matthew 6:23, "But if thine eye be evil (meaning unhealthy), thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!"

If what you say is true, there would be no darkness in man. So why did Jesus say this?


Paul said to will and want to do good is present.

Don't know where you are going with this one.


Spiritual death is not an inability or paralysis or anything that makes our spirit dysfunctional in any way.

That's funny.....according to the scripture and what Jesus said Himself. It does

God Bless

Dave

reformedct
Jan 9th 2009, 03:27 AM
The 'dead' throughout scripture communicate with and receive from God just fine.

Before the cross Jesus said the spirit is indeed willing but the flesh is weak.

Mary said her spirit rejoiced in God her savior.

Job said there is a spirit in man that is the candle of the Lord and the Spirit gives man understanding. Jesus, the Word that all things were made by is the light that lights all men.

Paul said to will and want to do good is present.

Those are just a few off the top of my head, I can post hundreds more, but you get the idea....and from scripture. Spiritual death is not an inability or paralysis or anything that makes our spirit dysfunctional in any way.


if the heart/spirit is the same

then the Bible does infact say that there is dysfunction with the spirit(assuming that the heart and spirit are the same, the core of who we are)

the bible says the heart is desperately wicked and cold. That doesnt sound like a functional spirit to me lol



it is my current view that the spirit and the heart are synonomous. So in my view people before salvation are indeed spiritually dead. Not that they dont have a spirit at all or that they cannot in any way hear the voice of God or be talked to (As we see Abimelech was talked to in a dream by God), but as the Bible says, "i will remove the heart of stone"

i think every human being has a spirit, but those who are unborn have a spirit that is cold and dead. think of horror films such as the Living Dead. The zombies are walking but they are indeed dead decaying things. it is my view that the spiritual state before salvation is like a zombie lol it moves and does things but it is ugly and cold and hard and dead. it is hard toward God. Its not that it cant hear God, but i also think Scripture is clear it will never submit to God unless God replaces it with a heart of flesh.

Sirus
Jan 9th 2009, 05:00 AM
if the heart/spirit is the same

then the Bible does infact say that there is dysfunction with the spirit(assuming that the heart and spirit are the same, the core of who we are)

the bible says the heart is desperately wicked and cold. That doesnt sound like a functional spirit to me lolDoes it say or even imply the heart is such at birth? No! I understand it gets there real quick but nevertheless, it is not that way at birth. It goes that way because it lacks an intimate relationship with God. That is what ALL scripture says. If that's dysfunction who's to blame?



it is my current view that the spirit and the heart are synonomous. So in my view people before salvation are indeed spiritually dead. Not that they dont have a spirit at all or that they cannot in any way hear the voice of God or be talked to (As we see Abimelech was talked to in a dream by God), but as the Bible says, "i will remove the heart of stone"I am of the opinion that generally the heart is the combination of spirit/soul.

reformedct
Jan 9th 2009, 04:07 PM
Does it say or even imply the heart is such at birth? No! I understand it gets there real quick but nevertheless, it is not that way at birth. It goes that way because it lacks an intimate relationship with God. That is what ALL scripture says. If that's dysfunction who's to blame?


I am of the opinion that generally the heart is the combination of spirit/soul.

but if it

A. lacks intimacy with God

B. is wicked and hostile and cold, a hater of God, suppressor of truth

how do you get from B to A without an act of God? If someone turns around and starts desiring God then he is no longer a hater of God right? And if he is no longer a hater of God he is in the Spirit right? do unbelievers have the Spirit?

Friend of I AM
Jan 9th 2009, 04:15 PM
but if it

A. lacks intimacy with God

B. is wicked and hostile and cold, a hater of God, suppressor of truth

how do you get from B to A without an act of God? If someone turns around and starts desiring God then he is no longer a hater of God right? And if he is no longer a hater of God he is in the Spirit right? do unbelievers have the Spirit?

Now this is a toughy. How does one qualify as an unbeliever? I think this is something that should be left up to God's discretion. Our hearts and minds can play tricks on us, thus we need to be careful regarding who God considers his. I think of Rahab, who was not a Jew..but sacraficed herself in a sense to help out the Israelites. I'm sure God considered her a believer based on her actions and response to him. The same can be said of Ruth, who sacraficed her life for her mother in law. Certainly God considered her a believer as well..based on the fact that she acted in accordance with the law of love.

Sirus
Jan 10th 2009, 02:44 AM
but if it

A. lacks intimacy with God

B. is wicked and hostile and cold, a hater of God, suppressor of truth

how do you get from B to A without an act of God? If someone turns around and starts desiring God then he is no longer a hater of God right? And if he is no longer a hater of God he is in the Spirit right? do unbelievers have the Spirit?Well again you are assuming an new born infant is wicked. How is an new born infant wicked and hostile towards God and what scripture says it is? Romans 1 describes the progression. They start out knowing God and holding truth and then their hearts are darkened. In order to be darkened it had to be something other than dark. Who suppresses truth? It says hold truth. Translations that change 'hold' to 'suppress' in Romans 1 translate the same word as some type of 'hold' everywhere but there. Why? Because they just cannot accept what it plainly says, that ALL scripture plainly says. God's wrath is revealed to those that knew better. Else, how shall he judge the world? That's the whole contexts of Romans 1-3, yet, not believing it, translators attempt to change the context for one verse. Man cannot suppress truth and no scripture says he can. He can reject truth, but the translators couldn't use reject and maintain the Greek, hence suppress. We can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth. In the same example of truth/reprobates.....

2Co 13:7 Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.
2Co 13:8 For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.

There's no suppression of truth in a reprobate because they can only confirm the truth through rejection. It is truth that they know they are judged by.

ross3421
Jan 10th 2009, 03:57 PM
Did Adams sin cause spiritual death?
I think we can all agree that death is simply separation from life ie God

For one to experience spiritual death they must have been spiritually alive at a point. Thus there is no such thing as spiritual death rather the person is spiritually DEAD never spiritually alive. In addition if one is spiritually alive he can never experience spiritual death.

If Adam was spiritually alive before he sinned, his sin did not or could not cause spiritual death as it would be like losing your salvation.

If Adam was not spiritually alive before he sinned then he remained spiritually dead until a later point he accepted God and his sacrifice.


I believe if Adam would have not sinned he would not have physically died. Scripture relates sin with physical death. Again the notion of "spiritual death" is an impossibility rather it is being "spiritually dead". Big difference.



What is the condition of our spirit before conversion/being born again?

Are we even born with a spirit? If we are spiritually dead or even experience spiritual death, would we have a spirit?

Being born again is being born not physically but spiritually thus we can not have a current spirit to be able to be born again. If we were it would be some other current spirit.

All are born physically alive but spiritually dead.


Mark

divaD
Jan 10th 2009, 04:51 PM
I believe if Adam would have not sinned he would not have physically died.


This is where I would have to disagree. If God designed man in such a way, that it required procreation in order to exist, and if this planet is only so big, with only so many resourses , then how was this planet going to sustain physical life forever and ever, if people are multiplying on the earth but no one is dying?





Scripture relates sin with physical death.


If Scripture relates sin to physical death, then why do plants and animals die also? Do they also sin? The only logical conclusion that I can come to is, man was always meant to die physically, no matter what. And when God told Adam he would die, this was in relation to the 2nd and final death, the very same death that Jesus conquered when He rose from the dead.

Sirus
Jan 10th 2009, 06:34 PM
This is where I would have to disagree. If God designed man in such a way, that it required procreation in order to exist, and if this planet is only so big, with only so many resourses , then how was this planet going to sustain physical life forever and ever, if people are multiplying on the earth but no one is dying?If's are pretty pointless but if Adam had not sinned he would have continued to have the tree of life which enabled him to escape corruption.



If Scripture relates sin to physical death, then why do plants and animals die also? Do they also sin? The only logical conclusion that I can come to is, man was always meant to die physically, no matter what. And when God told Adam he would die, this was in relation to the 2nd and final death, the very same death that Jesus conquered when He rose from the dead.When Adam sinned he was separated from the tree of life. Pretty simple. So it's not 'no matter what' else God gave him the tree of life in vain and it really was not effectual. If this is true what will it be in the future?

Genesis says absolutely nothing about a second death for man in this earth and no scripture does. The second death is only future. It is appointed unto to man once to die, then the judgment.

ross3421
Jan 10th 2009, 06:48 PM
This is where I would have to disagree.

In your opinion, when did sin enter into Adam? At his formation, or when he ate from the tree?.

This will pose a dilemma for you..........

If you say formation then you are saying God formed Adam with sin which he could not.

If you say when he ate from the tree then he was without sin prior to this and he could not have died a natural death. Death is by sin, no other way.

Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

You know you are suggesting that Christ would also eventually died if he did not die on the cross......



If God designed man in such a way, that it required procreation in order to exist, and if this planet is only so big, with only so many resources , then how was this planet going to sustain physical life forever and ever, if people are multiplying on the earth but no one is dying?

I have wonder why there were so many planets, galaxies ect........:D



If Scripture relates sin to physical death, then why do plants and animals die also? Do they also sin?

Sin is now not an action, it is a state. It only took ONE sin.

Sin has entered into all of this world, including plants and animals. At the beginning it appears the "river of life" watered all things and nothing would have perished however when Adam sinned he was kicked out of the garden and therein due to sin all thing now perish without this river to keep things new.

This world and all things will be burned with fire and made new again. At this time we also see the return of the river of life.

ross3421
Jan 10th 2009, 06:56 PM
If's are pretty pointless but if Adam had not sinned he would have continued to have the tree of life which enabled him to escape corruption.

Very good.

Why though is this tree needed and to be eaten from in the eternal kingdom of God? Will it sustain them? Will there be those which will not eat thereof during this time?

Re 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Sirus
Jan 10th 2009, 08:20 PM
Will it sustain them? Will there be those which will not eat thereof during this time?

Re 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.I think so. I mean, that is what it says right?

divaD
Jan 10th 2009, 09:18 PM
If's are pretty pointless but if Adam had not sinned he would have continued to have the tree of life which enabled him to
escape corruption.


This is a pretty interesting statement, something that I have actually pondered. Concerning the tree of life, does one need to continually eat from it, or does one have to only eat from it one time in order to live forever?

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:




Genesis says absolutely nothing about a second death for man in this earth and no scripture does. The second death is only
future.


Why does it have to? It should be pretty apparent that Jesus defeated some kind of death. Did He defeat physical death, spiritual death, or the 2nd death? These are the only 3 deaths that I'm aware of, that's assuming there is actually such a thing as spiritual death. But it would seem to me, if spiritual death was taught in Scriptures, then the 2nd death should actually be called the 3rd death, but for some reason it's called the 2nd death. Physical death = 1. The 2nd death = 2. Perhaps that's why. But that presents a problem when there's another death to consider, that being spiritual death. Now we're talking about 3 deaths instead of the 2 that Scriptures teach.

divaD
Jan 10th 2009, 09:20 PM
If you say when he ate from the tree then he was without sin prior to this and he could not have died a natural death. Death is
by sin, no other way.

Actually, I don't see the dilemna. The 2nd death is a death. And the Bible says the wages of sin is death. If you'll notice in that verse, it is not comparing physical death to physical life, it is comparing eternal death to eternal life. The only eternal death that I'm aware of is the 2nd death.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

ross3421
Jan 10th 2009, 10:39 PM
Actually, I don't see the dilemna. The 2nd death is a death. And the Bible says the wages of sin is death. If you'll notice in that verse, it is not comparing physical death to physical life, it is comparing eternal death to eternal life. The only eternal death that I'm aware of is the 2nd death.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is (the second) death?; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord

The death that is being spoken above is the first death. The second death has not been passed on upon ALL men.

Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

So again I ask you the question, when did Adam have sin?

It appears your answer is once he ate the fruit, thus Adam would have never died and not have been dispelled from the garden and lived forever. It would have been the same for his offspring.

Now since Christ is God and is the river of life, he vould have never died either.

divaD
Jan 10th 2009, 11:23 PM
The second death has not been passed on upon ALL men.


This is another one of those what ifs. Sometimes these what ifs are necessary in order to illustrate a point. We know that this didn't happen, but what if Christ had failed? What would have happened to all of mankind? Would anyone have been saved? Would not every single person physically die, then be judged, then be cast into the lake of fire, which is the 2nd death?

the point you're missing, it is only because of Christ that this fate doesn't happen to every single person.

Now considering everything that I wrote here, how can you still conclude that the 2nd death wasn't passed upon all men? This is exactly what would have happened to every single person, had not Christ died and resurrected. Everyone would die the 2nd death. This is what Christ saved us from by giving us eternal life instead. That's the opposite of eternal death. He certainly didn't save us from the first death, the physical death, since we all apparently still physically die.

divaD
Jan 10th 2009, 11:27 PM
So again I ask you the question, when did Adam have sin?




Apprently when he partook of the fruit. Sin entered the world thru Adam via the serpent. That's what I feel the Scriptures are implying.

ross3421
Jan 11th 2009, 07:51 PM
Apprently when he partook of the fruit. Sin entered the world thru Adam via the serpent. That's what I feel the Scriptures are implying.


So again, would Adam which knew no sin have died the first death? No.

Due to the sin of Adam Christ died that we may not die the first but the second death. The first death was passed unto all by Adam.

1co 15:22 For as in Adam all die,

The key in our debate is understanding is that sin is what kills the body not "time" ect.....

Sirus
Jan 11th 2009, 07:55 PM
Ummm....after Adam sinned, God said, not anyone else, God said if he continued to have access to the tree of life he would live forever. So, what death is being spoken of here in the context? Just physical. Dust you are and to the ground you'll return. Physical. Then where is spiritual death in the text?

ross3421
Jan 11th 2009, 08:07 PM
how can you still conclude that the 2nd death wasn't passed upon all men? This is exactly what would have happened to every single person, had not Christ died and resurrected. Everyone would die the 2nd death.

Would have but did not. Hence the second death has not been passed on only the first death was suredly passed on to all men.

Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

One man = Adam

1co 15:22 For as in Adam all die,

For those which hear, the second death will not be passed on....

Re 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Note the Greek word for passed means to "go through". Will all men go through the second death? Absolutely not. We need to look at these deaths as not could happen but what is the reality of what will happen.

Sirus
Jan 11th 2009, 08:17 PM
Right, the condemnation (judgment) was to all men, so death passed to all men. The death in the context is physical death. Why, because physical death is the only death in Genesis 3...not to mention Romans.

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses..........

The context is physical death compared to resurrected life.
This word for condemnation is found 3x in all scripture. 2x in Romans 5 and 1x in Romans 8. Throughout, the death Romans speaks of is physical just as the resurrection is physical.

Jesus didn't die spiritually he died physically because that is the death that needed to be answered. The second death is a none-issue until Judgment.