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reformedct
Jan 6th 2009, 07:03 PM
Are Jesus teachings,(be perfect as your Father is perfect, forgive or you will not be forgiven) are they just as much law as the Mosaic law?

if so, doesnt that mean that we are not under those laws?(Jesus laws?)

i dont mean we dont have to keep them, i mean dont we keep them because we are under grace not because we are under law?

For example forgive others and you will be forgiven

isnt that the same as keeping the ten commandments, meaning that our salvation(true forgiveness) is not based on doing this?

Frances
Jan 6th 2009, 07:13 PM
Perhaps my confusion is due to tiredness, but could you rephrase your question?

ProjectPeter
Jan 6th 2009, 07:16 PM
Are Jesus teachings,(be perfect as your Father is perfect, forgive or you will not be forgiven) are they just as much law as the Mosaic law?

if so, doesnt that mean that we are not under those laws?(Jesus laws?)

i dont mean we dont have to keep them, i mean dont we keep them because we are under grace not because we are under law?

For example forgive others and you will be forgiven

isnt that the same as keeping the ten commandments, meaning that our salvation(true forgiveness) is not based on doing this?
How can one claim to follow someone that they don't follow? How can one claim to love Him and yet not obey? No... the law of Christ is not the Law that Paul says we are free of. Goodness... Paul speaks of the Law of Moses... not the Law of the Lord.

Emanate
Jan 6th 2009, 07:23 PM
How can one claim to follow someone that they don't follow? How can one claim to love Him and yet not obey? No... the law of Christ is not the Law that Paul says we are free of. Goodness... Paul speaks of the Law of Moses... not the Law of the Lord.


How can the Law of Messiah contradict the Law of God? As I have repeatedly stated, Paul spoke against Jewish Law, not the Law of God. Otherwise he was a heretic.

Emanate
Jan 6th 2009, 07:25 PM
Are Jesus teachings,(be perfect as your Father is perfect, forgive or you will not be forgiven) are they just as much law as the Mosaic law?

if so, doesnt that mean that we are not under those laws?(Jesus laws?)

i dont mean we dont have to keep them, i mean dont we keep them because we are under grace not because we are under law?

For example forgive others and you will be forgiven

isnt that the same as keeping the ten commandments, meaning that our salvation(true forgiveness) is not based on doing this?


Yes, salvation comes from the death burial and resurrection of Messiah, apart from any law.

ProjectPeter
Jan 6th 2009, 07:26 PM
How can the Law of Messiah contradict the Law of God? As I have repeatedly stated, Paul spoke against Jewish Law, not the Law of God. Otherwise he was a heretic.
Uh... you might read again what I said. ;)

Emanate
Jan 6th 2009, 08:20 PM
Uh... you might read again what I said. ;)


My point is that Jewish Law is not even the law of Moses. They believe it is, but is a rabbinic construct.

ProjectPeter
Jan 6th 2009, 08:32 PM
Not even going to pretend to know what that all means. :lol: Hopefully my point is made without getting into all of that sort of thing.

Butch5
Jan 6th 2009, 09:20 PM
Are Jesus teachings,(be perfect as your Father is perfect, forgive or you will not be forgiven) are they just as much law as the Mosaic law?

if so, doesnt that mean that we are not under those laws?(Jesus laws?)

i dont mean we dont have to keep them, i mean dont we keep them because we are under grace not because we are under law?

For example forgive others and you will be forgiven

isnt that the same as keeping the ten commandments, meaning that our salvation(true forgiveness) is not based on doing this?


Genesis 49:8-10 ( KJV ) 8Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise: thy hand shall be in the neck of thine enemies; thy fatherís children shall bow down before thee. 9Judah is a lionís whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up? 10The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.


Acts 3:21-24 ( KJV ) 21Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. 22For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. 24Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

kenrank
Jan 6th 2009, 09:57 PM
How can one claim to follow someone that they don't follow? How can one claim to love Him and yet not obey? No... the law of Christ is not the Law that Paul says we are free of. Goodness... Paul speaks of the Law of Moses... not the Law of the Lord.

I agree with you first part PP, but not the second. Yahushua said he that obeys his commands inherits the tree of life. I have always seen James as saying that we come in faith and that faith causes obediance to the one we love.

I however, believe Paul is denouncing man made laws and additions to Torah. It just doesn't make sense to me that God would give a law, call it perpetual or everlasting, only to do away with it later. He knows the end from the beginning, Messiah's life/death/life ordained from the foundation of the world. So why give an "everlasting command" and then kill it for eternity when Messiah does what he does? There just seems, to me, to be a lack of continuity in that as well as him going against his own word.

Peace to you.
Ken

ProjectPeter
Jan 6th 2009, 11:19 PM
I agree with you first part PP, but not the second. Yahushua said he that obeys his commands inherits the tree of life. I have always seen James as saying that we come in faith and that faith causes obediance to the one we love.

I however, believe Paul is denouncing man made laws and additions to Torah. It just doesn't make sense to me that God would give a law, call it perpetual or everlasting, only to do away with it later. He knows the end from the beginning, Messiah's life/death/life ordained from the foundation of the world. So why give an "everlasting command" and then kill it for eternity when Messiah does what he does? There just seems, to me, to be a lack of continuity in that as well as him going against his own word.

Peace to you.
KenI am quite sure that Jesus was against the man-made stuff no doubt. Also quite sure that Jesus set straight some of the written law of Moses as well. But sure... I knew that there would be some that didn't agree. ;)

reformedct
Jan 6th 2009, 11:53 PM
How can one claim to follow someone that they don't follow? How can one claim to love Him and yet not obey? No... the law of Christ is not the Law that Paul says we are free of. Goodness... Paul speaks of the Law of Moses... not the Law of the Lord.


This is what i mean:

just as we dont obey the ten commandments to have right standing,

(we do obey them but not to be made righteous)

do we also not obey Christ commands to have right standing

(meaning we obey them but not to be made righteous)

for example can i say, i forgive my enemies, therefore i am justified because of doing so.

Or, i love God and my neighbors, because of this, i am justified and have right standing

as compared to: i am justified by faith in Christ, and because i have been justified i obey Him out of pure love

ProjectPeter
Jan 6th 2009, 11:59 PM
This is what i mean:

just as we dont obey the ten commandments to have right standing,

(we do obey them but not to be made righteous)

do we also not obey Christ commands to have right standing

(meaning we obey them but not to be made righteous)
Who is righteous if you aren't obeying the laws of the Lord?

reformedct
Jan 7th 2009, 12:00 AM
Who is righteous if you aren't obeying the laws of the Lord?


Are you saying that we are made righteous by our obedience?

ProjectPeter
Jan 7th 2009, 12:02 AM
Are you saying that we are made righteous by our obedience?
Well... isn't the righteous man the one that practices righteousness?

reformedct
Jan 7th 2009, 12:05 AM
Well... isn't the righteous man the one that practices righteousness?

ok, let me ask this

how much righteousness must a righteous man practice to be righteous?

ProjectPeter
Jan 7th 2009, 12:10 AM
ok, let me ask this

how much righteousness must a righteous man practice to be righteous?
How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood? ;)

What does the Bible say about the righteous man? Here... a clue!

1 John 2:29 *If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.


1 John 3:7 *Little children, let no one deceive you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8 *the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, that He might destroy the works of the devil.


So again... what does the righteous man practice?

reformedct
Jan 7th 2009, 12:13 AM
How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood? ;)

What does the Bible say about the righteous man? Here... a clue!

1 John 2:29 *If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.


1 John 3:7 *Little children, let no one deceive you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8 *the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, that He might destroy the works of the devil.


So again... what does the righteous man practice?


so we are not justified by faith? what does it mean to be justified?


i am not arguing that we dont have to obey Christs commandments (i hope thats not what it looked like!)

i am saying, are we justified by faith, or justified by obeying each specific commandment, and what does it mean to be justified?

graceforme
Jan 7th 2009, 12:21 AM
Galatians 4:4 "But when the fulness of time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,"

Christ lived under the law. Look at the dialogue Christ had with the rich young ruler. (Matt. 19:16-17) And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."

During Christ's earthly ministry, the way to obtain eternal life was through the observance of the Old Testament law, including the offering of animal sacrifices as a temporary covering for sin. God had not yet given the revelation of the gospel of the grace of God. Jesus Christ lived under the law and taught the law. Maybe my ignorance is showing, but I'm not familiar with the difference between the Old Testament Law and Jewish law. I thought Old Testament law was Jewish law.

ProjectPeter
Jan 7th 2009, 12:31 AM
so we are not justified by faith? what does it mean to be justified?


i am not arguing that we dont have to obey Christs commandments (i hope thats not what it looked like!)

i am saying, are we justified by faith, or justified by obeying each specific commandment, and what does it mean to be justified?
Basically means to render someone just. And we are justified by faith but then remember what James said... ;)

James 2:24 *You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.

ProjectPeter
Jan 7th 2009, 12:33 AM
Galatians 4:4 "But when the fulness of time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,"

Christ lived under the law. Look at the dialogue Christ had with the rich young ruler. (Matt. 19:16-17) And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."

During Christ's earthly ministry, the way to obtain eternal life was through the observance of the Old Testament law, including the offering of animal sacrifices as a temporary covering for sin. God had not yet given the revelation of the gospel of the grace of God. Jesus Christ lived under the law and taught the law. Maybe my ignorance is showing, but I'm not familiar with the difference between the Old Testament Law and Jewish law. I thought Old Testament law was Jewish law.
No... that wasn't the way at all. Sacrifice meant nothing to God... never really was His desire. ;) The way to eternal life then was just as it is now... by faith. Without that faith... one could follow the Law and offer thousands of bulls and rams and it wouldn't have mattered.

reformedct
Jan 7th 2009, 02:31 AM
Basically means to render someone just. And we are justified by faith but then remember what James said... ;)

James 2:24 *You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.

so when we repent and place faith in Christ, at that very moment, before we have done anything good, are we justified? do we have to go do something good to fully be justified?


James is saying that faith without works is dead. In that way we can see we are justified by works. But the issue is not works it is living faith vs. dead faith. Living faith has works but dont you understand that those works are not what justifies us?

does God "basically render us just" or does He actually justify the ungodly?

does NT Scripture ever say we can be unjustified? seems that those whom He justified He glorified but maybe im taking that out of context

ProjectPeter
Jan 7th 2009, 03:14 AM
so when we repent and place faith in Christ, at that very moment, before we have done anything good, are we justified? do we have to go do something good to fully be justified?


James is saying that faith without works is dead. In that way we can see we are justified by works. But the issue is not works it is living faith vs. dead faith. Living faith has works but dont you understand that those works are not what justifies us?

does God "basically render us just" or does He actually justify the ungodly?

does NT Scripture ever say we can be unjustified? seems that those whom He justified He glorified but maybe im taking that out of context
So what did James actually say... without adding or taking away?

reformedct
Jan 7th 2009, 03:24 AM
So what did James actually say... without adding or taking away?

this is silly

thats like me asking, so what did Paul say without adding or taking away?

(to him who does not work but believes, we are justified by faith not works, etc)

anytime the Bible seems to contradict we must interpret. The Bible cant contradict itself. James actually said we are justified by works not faith. Paul actually said to him who does not work. whats your point?

kenrank
Jan 7th 2009, 04:02 AM
I am quite sure that Jesus was against the man-made stuff no doubt. Also quite sure that Jesus set straight some of the written law of Moses as well. But sure... I knew that there would be some that didn't agree. ;)

Never a problem in disagreeing!

Peace.
Ken

kenrank
Jan 7th 2009, 04:04 AM
How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood? ;)

That actually depends on the age of the woodchuck, how sharp his teeth are, and what kind of wood he is chucking!

Ken

kenrank
Jan 7th 2009, 04:07 AM
Galatians 4:4 "But when the fulness of time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,"

Christ lived under the law. Look at the dialogue Christ had with the rich young ruler. (Matt. 19:16-17) And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."

During Christ's earthly ministry, the way to obtain eternal life was through the observance of the Old Testament law, including the offering of animal sacrifices as a temporary covering for sin. God had not yet given the revelation of the gospel of the grace of God. Jesus Christ lived under the law and taught the law. Maybe my ignorance is showing, but I'm not familiar with the difference between the Old Testament Law and Jewish law. I thought Old Testament law was Jewish law.

There is only one Torah. (Law) And here is a little secret, it was given long before Moses got it at Mt. Sinai. I have a question though...did Yahushua know he was going to be put to death? Is he God? If he knew his death would do away with the law, why tell the rich young ruler one way to inherit life, only to change the rules on him a couple of years later? He isn't the author of confusion.

Peace.
Ken

kenrank
Jan 7th 2009, 04:11 AM
anytime the Bible seems to contradict we must interpret. The Bible cant contradict itself. James actually said we are justified by works not faith. Paul actually said to him who does not work. whats your point?

I am not jumping into your conversation with PP. I just wanted to make an observation. I don't believe we are left to interpret when the bible contradicts. I believe we simply need to pray and look deeper for the answer. The Word is more than capable of explaining itself...we just need to be willing to wait for God to answer without using our own logic to answer a supposed contradiction.

Peace.
Ken

ProjectPeter
Jan 7th 2009, 12:57 PM
this is silly

thats like me asking, so what did Paul say without adding or taking away?

(to him who does not work but believes, we are justified by faith not works, etc)

anytime the Bible seems to contradict we must interpret. The Bible cant contradict itself. James actually said we are justified by works not faith. Paul actually said to him who does not work. whats your point?
Paul was speaking of what "works" and James was speaking of what type of "works?" Rest assured... they were both speaking of different types of works.

Butch5
Jan 7th 2009, 07:48 PM
this is silly

thats like me asking, so what did Paul say without adding or taking away?

(to him who does not work but believes, we are justified by faith not works, etc)

anytime the Bible seems to contradict we must interpret. The Bible cant contradict itself. James actually said we are justified by works not faith. Paul actually said to him who does not work. whats your point?


Reformed,

When Paul says Abraham was justified by faith, not works, He didn't mean that Abraham did nothing but believe. Look at the context in which Paul makes this statement. He is clearly contrasting faith with the works of the Law. Paul is saying they are justified by faith not by works of the Law. Look what Paul says just prior to his statement about Abraham,


Romans 3:19-31 ( KJV ) 19Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. 31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

The whole discussion of Abraham in chapter 4 is based on this contrast of Faith and works of the Law. So, when Paul says in chapter 4, that it is not of works, he means works of the law which he has been contrasting with faith in chapter 3. It does not mean that we have nothing to do to be justified.

Let's consider James now, Paul was speaking of works of the Law, James is speaking of works of righteousness or obedience. James makes it clear that these works are required to give life to our faith. While they are evidence that our faith is genuine, that is not why we do them. Without them our faith is dead. Consider what James says,


James 2:21-24 ( KJV ) 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Notice what James says, "and the Scripture was fulfilled", this is the same Scripture that Paul quoted, "Abraham believed God". When was the Scripture fulfilled? Abraham believed God, when God told him to leave his family, he believed God when God told him he would be the father of many nations, however notice the Scripture was not fulfilled until Abraham acted in obedience. So, when Paul says in Romans 4, Abraham believed God and it was counted as righteousness, he includes good works or works of obedience. So, being justified by faith, does not mean to just believe, it includes obedience to Christ. Also notice that James says, Faith is made perfect or complete by works. This is not saying that works are evidence of faith, this is saying that works are a part of faith, without works any claim of faith is dead. That is why James says a man is not justified by faith alone.

kenrank
Jan 7th 2009, 09:44 PM
Reformed,

When Paul says Abraham was justified by faith, not works, He didn't mean that Abraham did nothing but believe. Look at the context in which Paul makes this statement. He is clearly contrasting faith with the works of the Law. Paul is saying they are justified by faith not works of the Law. Look what Paul says just prior to his statement about Abraham,


Romans 3:19-31 ( KJV ) 19Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. 31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

The whole discussion of Abraham in chapter 4 is based on this contrast of Faith and works of the Law. So, when Paul says in chapter 4 that it is not of works, he means works of the law which he has be contrasting with faith in chapter 3. I does not mean that we have nothing to be justified.

let's consider James now, Paul was speaking of works of the Law, James is speaking of works of righteousness or obedience. James makes it clear that these works are required to give life to our faith. While they are evidence that our faith is genuine, the is not why we do them. Without them our our faith is dead. Consider what James says,


James 2:21-24 ( KJV ) 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Notice what James says, "and the Scripture was fulfilled", this is the same Scripture that Paul quoted, "Abraham believed God". When was the Scripture fulfilled? Abraham believed God, when God told him to leave his family, he believed God when God told him he would be the father of many nations, however notice the Scripture was not fulfilled until Abraham acted in obedience. So, when Paul says in Romans 4, Abraham believed God and it was counted as righteousness, he includes good works or works of obedience. So, being justified by faith, does not mean to just believe, it includes obedience to Christ. Also notice that James says, Faith is made perfect or complete by works. This is not saying that works are evidence of faith, this is saying that works are a part of faith, without work any claim of faith is dead. That is why James says a man is not justified by faith alone.

Butch, that was really well written and articulated!

Peace.
Ken

Butch5
Jan 7th 2009, 09:48 PM
Butch, that was really well written and articulated!

Peace.
Ken

Thank you sir, I appreciate it.