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Yukerboy
Jan 6th 2009, 10:49 PM
Hebrews 6

4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Help?

Old Earther
Jan 6th 2009, 10:55 PM
Spiros Zodhiates reasoned that this passage is an example of reductio ad absurdum (http://www.iep.utm.edu/r/reductio.htm). That is to say, Paul was making the point that it is impossible to lose salvation, for to lose salvation would be tantamount to crucifying the Son of God all over again, which is absurd.

http://matthewness.com/about/hebrews-study-eternal-security/

Scroll down to the part that deals with the passage in question.

th1bill
Jan 6th 2009, 11:11 PM
,,, And when these verses are considered in the context of all the rest of scripture that is my take also. I'll use an Old Testament example. Everyone accepts that Abraham has ascended into Heaven, even though he had a bad habit of not fully relying on God. You see, Abraham lied to Pharaoh in Egypt because he feared for his life even though he often walked with God. He also slept with Hagar to produce an heir even though God had promised him an heir through Sarah. God only saved Abraham and Sarah once and it lasted forever.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 6th 2009, 11:31 PM
The passage speaks about the foundation. The foundation is God's work and is a sure foundation, that no man can lay.

When we have received Christ and have been born again, the foundation has been laid. We cannot add to that foundation, and we cannot take away from the foundation (It is finished)

If one should fall away, he can come back, but he cannot relay the foundation. What we do is build on the sure foundation, but let us build with Gold, Silver and Precious Stone, and not with wood, hay and stubble.

monergist
Jan 6th 2009, 11:34 PM
Hebrews 6

4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Help?

What others have said is very good. I'd only add that if we were to take the non-eternal security position when reading this passage, we'd have to conclude that once someone is saved, and leaves communion with God, that he/she cannot be saved again. However, most who do not hold to eternal security would object to the idea that falling away means you can't come back. Kinda makes all those re-baptisms a little meaningless, don't you think?

reformedct
Jan 6th 2009, 11:44 PM
Hebrews 6 is talking about the unpardonable sin. That is rejecting Jesus. If you continue reading the passage the writer gives an illustration of God raining on two fields. One produces fruit, the other produces thorns. Also, at the end of this passage he says, "though i talk this way, i have better things concerning YOU, things that have to do with salvation". The person shown in Hebrews 6 is not one who has experienced salvation

Notice the non-committing words: enlightened, tasted, partaker, never says believer, truster, haves faith. People get confused with the word partaker. If i invite you to my house for dinner you have become a partaker in my blessings. Many people are partakers of the Spirit. They recieve and witness blessings of the Holy Spirit.

Also it is impossible to renew them to repentance. SO if this is talking about losing your salvation just because you stopped believing, that would mean that the second that you doubt your faith or turn on God you are damned forever even if you wanted to repent the next second!

Most people who agree on conditional security think this is a saved person but they will agree that the person can indeed repent but that would go against what the Scripture clearly says. That means everyone who has turned their back on God at anytime can never be forgiven again

Yukerboy
Jan 7th 2009, 12:06 AM
Please don't think if I don't reply that I started this thread to ignore it.

I'm just reading through and thinking, keep the answers coming :)

alethos
Jan 7th 2009, 12:07 AM
Here is the wording of Heb. 6:4-6 from the literal word for word NASB translation.

For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. (Heb. 6:4-6 )

Below are a few comments on the above verses from Reformed Calvinist Charles Spurgeon.

"a child reading this passage, would say, that the persons intended by it must be Christians. If the Holy Spirit intended to describe Christians, I do not see that he could have used more explicit terms than there are here."

"How can a man be said to be enlightened, and to taste of the heavenly gift, and to be made partaker of the Holy Ghost, without being a child of God?"

"none but true believers are here described."

"First, they are spoken of as having been once enlightened, This refers to the enlightening influence of God's Spirit .... I cannot consider a man truly enlightened unless he is a child of God."

"the next thing that God grants to us is a taste of the heavenly gift, by which we understand, the heavenly gift of salvation."

"we cannot think that the Holy Spirit would describe an unregenerate man as having been enlightened, and as having tasted of the heavenly gift, No, my brethren, If I have tasted of the heavenly gift, I am one of his."

"no man can be a partaker of the Holy Ghost, and yet be unregenerate."

'further..... they have tasted the good word of God .... I say again, if these people be not believers-who are?"

"They had received the powers of the world to come.... powers with which the Holy Ghost endows a Christian."

"These, we say, whatever may be the meaning of the text, must have been, beyond a doubt, none other than true and real Christians"

Once again all the above quotes on Heb 6:4-6 are from Charles Spurgeon.

reformedct
Jan 7th 2009, 12:22 AM
Here is the wording of Heb. 6:4-6 from the literal word for word NASB translation.

For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. (Heb. 6:4-6 )

Below are a few comments on the above verses from Reformed Calvinist Charles Spurgeon.

"a child reading this passage, would say, that the persons intended by it must be Christians. If the Holy Spirit intended to describe Christians, I do not see that he could have used more explicit terms than there are here."

"How can a man be said to be enlightened, and to taste of the heavenly gift, and to be made partaker of the Holy Ghost, without being a child of God?"

"none but true believers are here described."

"First, they are spoken of as having been once enlightened, This refers to the enlightening influence of God's Spirit .... I cannot consider a man truly enlightened unless he is a child of God."

"the next thing that God grants to us is a taste of the heavenly gift, by which we understand, the heavenly gift of salvation."

"we cannot think that the Holy Spirit would describe an unregenerate man as having been enlightened, and as having tasted of the heavenly gift, No, my brethren, If I have tasted of the heavenly gift, I am one of his."

"no man can be a partaker of the Holy Ghost, and yet be unregenerate."

'further..... they have tasted the good word of God .... I say again, if these people be not believers-who are?"

"They had received the powers of the world to come.... powers with which the Holy Ghost endows a Christian."

"These, we say, whatever may be the meaning of the text, must have been, beyond a doubt, none other than true and real Christians"

Once again all the above quotes on Heb 6:4-6 are from Charles Spurgeon.

i am reformed and actually disagree with Spurgeouns commentary on this section as many reformed theologians do.

Spurgeon believed that the passage was hypothetical.

he believed that since they were true believers and true believers cant fall away that the event of falling away could actually not happen

it is the more common reformed view that this was an unconverted person who did in fact fall away

alethos
Jan 7th 2009, 12:39 AM
it is the more common reformed view that this was an unconverted person who did in fact fall away

I need to apologize for posting here. I didn't initially see that this thread was for eternal securist's only. Nevertheless.

How does one fall from a height he never obtained.

No need to answer. I am not an eternal securist so I won't be back to read any answer you might provide since only eternal securists are welcome here.

BroRog
Jan 7th 2009, 01:01 AM
It's like this. If you are traveling down the freeway and see the sign up ahead that reads "Jesus next right" and you miss your turn. I don't think Hebrews 6 rules out the possibility that you can double back to find the right exit again.

It does rule out the possiblity that once having decided that "Jesus" is not where you want to go, it's impossible to find salvation on the Buddhist or Hindu, or L. Ron Hubbard exit.

;)

graceforme
Jan 7th 2009, 01:03 AM
I think in order to understand the above passage, we must understand who Hebrews was written to and for wht purpose. If we take every passage of Scripture and apply it to this dispensation of grace, confusion will result. While ALL Scripture is inspired by God, and much can be learned from ALL Scripture, not all Scripture is intended as instruction for us today.

There were three different groups of Jews who were addressed in the book of Hebrews:

1) believers - They suffered rejection and persecution by fellow Jews (10:32-34), although none as yet had been martyred (12:4). The letter was written to give them encouragement and confidence in Christ, their Messiah and High-Priest. They were an immature group of believers who were tempted to hold on to the symbolic and spiritually powerless rituals and traditions of Judaism.

2) unbelievers who were intellectually convinced of the gospel - They were Jewish unbelievers who were basically convinced of the basic truths ofthe gospel, but who had not placed their faith in Christ as the own Savior and Lord. They were intellecually persuaded but spiritual uncommitted. These unbelievers are addressed in such passages as 2:1-3; 6:4-6; 10:26-29, and 12:15-17.

and 3) unbelievers who were not convinced of the gospel's truth but had had some exposure to it. Chapter 9 is largely devoted to them (see especially v 11, 14, 15, 27, 28).

The most serious interpretive challenge in found in 6:4-6. The phrase "once enlightened" is often taken to refer to Christians, and the accompanying warning taken to indicate the danger of losing their salvation if they "fall away" and "crucify again for themselves the Son of God." But there is no mention of their being saved and they are not described with any terms that apply only to believers (such as holy, born again, righteous, or saints). This problem arises from inaccurately dientifying the spiritual condition of the ones being addressed. In this case, they were unbelievers who had been exposed to God's redemptive truth, and perhaps had made a profession of faith, but had not exercised genuine saving faith. In 10:26, the reference once again is to apostate Christians, not to genuine believers who are often incorrectly thought to love their salvation because of their sins.

From the John MacArthur Study Bible - Interpretive challenges on the book of Hebrews.

Thought this might give some additional insight.

God Bless.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 7th 2009, 01:14 AM
Hebrews 6 is talking about the unpardonable sin. That is rejecting Jesus. If you continue reading the passage the writer gives an illustration of God raining on two fields. One produces fruit, the other produces thorns. Also, at the end of this passage he says, "though i talk this way, i have better things concerning YOU, things that have to do with salvation". The person shown in Hebrews 6 is not one who has experienced salvation

Notice the non-committing words: enlightened, tasted, partaker, never says believer, truster, haves faith. People get confused with the word partaker. If i invite you to my house for dinner you have become a partaker in my blessings. Many people are partakers of the Spirit. They recieve and witness blessings of the Holy Spirit.

Also it is impossible to renew them to repentance. SO if this is talking about losing your salvation just because you stopped believing, that would mean that the second that you doubt your faith or turn on God you are damned forever even if you wanted to repent the next second!

Most people who agree on conditional security think this is a saved person but they will agree that the person can indeed repent but that would go against what the Scripture clearly says. That means everyone who has turned their back on God at anytime can never be forgiven again

Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Fruit is not salvation, but something that accompanies salvation.

Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

How can they "crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh" if they have not already done so?

reformedct
Jan 7th 2009, 02:24 AM
I need to apologize for posting here. I didn't initially see that this thread was for eternal securist's only. Nevertheless.

How does one fall from a height he never obtained.

No need to answer. I am not an eternal securist so I won't be back to read any answer you might provide since only eternal securists are welcome here.

fall away is just another way of saying rejected the faith or left the church thats all. Its not a matter of literally falling from a height lol

reformedct
Jan 7th 2009, 02:25 AM
I need to apologize for posting here. I didn't initially see that this thread was for eternal securist's only. Nevertheless.

How does one fall from a height he never obtained.

No need to answer. I am not an eternal securist so I won't be back to read any answer you might provide since only eternal securists are welcome here.

fall away is just another way of saying rejected the faith and left the church thats all. Its falling away from the covenant community aka renouncing Christ and never coming back to church. Its not a matter of literally falling from a height lol anyways, i have seen this argument before. At the end of the day, everyone leaves still believing what they want to

Brother Mark
Jan 7th 2009, 02:44 AM
Hebrews 6

4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Help?

My personal take is... if you lose you salvation, you don't ever get it back. To get saved again, requires a second crucifixion and "that ain't happenin". It was this passage that moved me from being eternal security believer. The one thing I could never get around... if the guy wasn't saved, then why was a second crucifixion necessary? If he was saved, and did not lose his salvation, then why was a second crucifixion necessary? And if he was never saved, then why was a second crucifixion necessary? If the "first" crucifixion was indeed applied, then the man must be saved. If he loses it, then it's lost forever.

Just my 2 cents. I think it very difficult for a man to "lose" his salvation. But if he ever does, he's toast.

Having said that... there are some very encouraging things in this chapter. One of the greatest scriptures on assurance we can have is given later. God took an oath for us. That says a lot. Personally, I think the author wrote 4-6 to force the Hebrews to grow up. I think they were having this "get saved" thing over and over again and he pretty much pulled that rug out from under them. They should already be teaching but were not growing up. They kept wanting to revisit the very basic things. So the writer said "OK, let's move past the basic things because if you lose you salvation, you're toast". That pretty much got them to move past the idea of "repentance from dead works, baptisms, judgment, etc."

ProjectPeter
Jan 7th 2009, 01:58 PM
Since we don't do "only" threads in Bible Chat... I figure I may as well jump in and toss a fly in the proverbial ointment. ;)

For those that are newer... we tried the "only" threads once before and it was not good. What happens is that folks begin just doing the "only" threads and then want moderator's to allow folks to have their own little discussions thus a certain group can teach a certain doctrine without rebuttal etc. That isn't what Bible Chat is for or about. So that being said... my turn to respond.

The writer that penned these verses in the original post also penned the same type words a bit later in his letter.

Hebrews 10:26 *¶For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 *but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
28 *Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 *How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30 *For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
31 *It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
32 *¶But remember the former days, when, after being enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings,
33 *partly, by being made a public spectacle through reproaches and tribulations, and partly by becoming sharers with those who were so treated.
34 *For you showed sympathy to the prisoners, and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and an abiding one.
35 *Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
36 *For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
37 *FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.
38 *BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
39 *But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

Now... if this person was sanctified... how could it be hypothetical or how can it be speaking of someone that was never really a believer anyway etc.

Ezer Kenegdo
Jan 7th 2009, 02:54 PM
Agreeing with Brother Mark and ProjectPeter. I am eternally secure as long as I stay in the faith - endure to the end - keep believing. The King James uses "eth" to show a continuation - believeth.


Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Believe and keep believing.


Mar 13:12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
Mar 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mat 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
Don't reject Christ to men when you are persecuted - stay in the faith, keep believing!


Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblamable and unreprovable in his sight:
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel,

Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

It simply means don't reject Christ - don't stop believing.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 7th 2009, 03:01 PM
Since we don't do "only" threads in Bible Chat... I figure I may as well jump in and toss a fly in the proverbial ointment. ;)

For those that are newer... we tried the "only" threads once before and it was not good. What happens is that folks begin just doing the "only" threads and then want moderator's to allow folks to have their own little discussions thus a certain group can teach a certain doctrine without rebuttal etc. That isn't what Bible Chat is for or about. So that being said... my turn to respond.

The writer that penned these verses in the original post also penned the same type words a bit later in his letter.

Hebrews 10:26 *¶For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 *but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
28 *Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 *How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30 *For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
31 *It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
32 *¶But remember the former days, when, after being enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings,
33 *partly, by being made a public spectacle through reproaches and tribulations, and partly by becoming sharers with those who were so treated.
34 *For you showed sympathy to the prisoners, and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and an abiding one.
35 *Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
36 *For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
37 *FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.
38 *BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
39 *But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

Now... if this person was sanctified... how could it be hypothetical or how can it be speaking of someone that was never really a believer anyway etc.

Hi Ken!

Christ died for the sins of the whole world.
He not only bought the treasure, but He bought the whole field and everything in that field (good or bad) belongs to Him.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 7th 2009, 03:12 PM
Agreeing with Brother Mark and ProjectPeter. I am eternally secure as long as I stay in the faith - endure to the end - keep believing. The King James uses "eth" to show a continuation - believeth.

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Believe and keep believing.

Hi Ezer!

Jesus said to Nathanael:

John 1:50 Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.

"believest" [pisteuo] is the same word as 'believeth' [pisteuo]

Does that also infer a continuation - believest?

ProjectPeter
Jan 7th 2009, 03:13 PM
Hi Ken!

Christ died for the sins of the whole world.
He not only bought the treasure, but He bought the whole field and everything in that field (good or bad) belongs to Him.
If you really believe that then you MUST take the Universalism stand that ALL are ultimately HIS SHEEP and none will perish etc. Naturally that is heresy because Jesus also made it clear that ALL weren't His. So no... that just doesn't work and one has to really stretch that passage to make that work. ALL were not sanctified because Jesus died on the cross. You will not be able to make that work anywhere in Scripture.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 7th 2009, 03:18 PM
If you really believe that then you MUST take the Universalism stand that ALL are ultimately HIS SHEEP and none will perish etc. Naturally that is heresy because Jesus also made it clear that ALL weren't His. So no... that just doesn't work and one has to really stretch that passage to make that work. ALL were not sanctified because Jesus died on the cross. You will not be able to make that work anywhere in Scripture.

"you MUST take the Universalism stand"

Not at all Ken?

That is just your faulty understanding.

theBelovedDisciple
Jan 7th 2009, 03:19 PM
If you really believe that then you MUST take the Universalism stand that ALL are ultimately HIS SHEEP and none will perish etc. Naturally that is heresy because Jesus also made it clear that ALL weren't His. So no... that just doesn't work and one has to really stretch that passage to make that work. ALL were not sanctified because Jesus died on the cross. You will not be able to make that work anywhere in Scripture.


Agreed with the above poster....

divaD
Jan 7th 2009, 03:27 PM
It's like this. If you are traveling down the freeway and see the sign up ahead that reads "Jesus next right" and you miss your turn. I don't think Hebrews 6 rules out the possibility that you can double back to find the right exit again.

It does rule out the possiblity that once having decided that "Jesus" is not where you want to go, it's impossible to find salvation on the Buddhist or Hindu, or L. Ron Hubbard exit.

;)



I've got to admit, I've never looked at this passage from this perspective before. It certainly is a unique way to look at it, but I don't believe this analogy fits the passage. This passage doesn't suggest anything about seeking salvation elsewhere.

ProjectPeter
Jan 7th 2009, 03:29 PM
"you MUST take the Universalism stand"

Not at all Ken?

That is just your faulty understanding.
If all men were sanctified then what other stand do you have because that's were your conclusion leads. The person spoken of in Hebrews 10 was sanctified by the blood of Christ.

29 *How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

If one continues sinning willfully then there is no sacrifice according to the passage. If this is the case then ALL of the world is lost and without hope and our preaching is in vain because rest assured... there is a lot of willfull sinning by sinners. If this is speaking of them then they are indeed trampling the Spirit of grace underfoot and thus cannot be saved.

And then notice what the writer says right after this verse.

30 *For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."

The writer is talking about the people of God. Continue on... He is speaking of those that FALL BACK.

Hebrews 10:35 *Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.

He is speaking of people with CONFIDENCE. What worldly sinner has confidence just because Jesus died? They can't toss it away if they don't have it and the only confidence is found in God's people.

36 *For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.

What worldly sinner has need of endurance? Endure in what... sin? I mean sin is what they do now so if this is speaking of everyone then the Christian needs to endure and the worldly sinner needs to endure. Again... your logic fails the test of Scripture itself.

37 *FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.
38 *BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.

MY RIGHTEOUS ONE? And if he shrinks back? Who is it speaking of? A sinner shrinking back into sin that they have never escaped? That would make no sense. He is speaking of the RIGHTEOUS ONE that shrinks back... the exact thing the writer was speaking of in the 5th and 6th chapter... the folks that had need AGAIN to be taught the elementary things. They should have been teachers by now but no... they were shrinking back and now needing the very elementary things of the faith. That was the danger the writer is warning them about THROUGHOUT the letter of Hebrews.

Sirus
Jan 8th 2009, 03:46 AM
Hi Ezer!

Jesus said to Nathanael:

John 1:50 Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.

"believest" [pisteuo] is the same word as 'believeth' [pisteuo]

Does that also infer a continuation - believest?

believeth= πιστευων
believest= πιστευεις

The Middle English translators didn't bring back Old English because it was fun. They didn't out of necessity to maintain the Greek. Modern translations lack these dynamics.

RogerW
Jan 9th 2009, 01:39 AM
Hi Ken!

Christ died for the sins of the whole world.
He not only bought the treasure, but He bought the whole field and everything in that field (good or bad) belongs to Him.


If you really believe that then you MUST take the Universalism stand that ALL are ultimately HIS SHEEP and none will perish etc. Naturally that is heresy because Jesus also made it clear that ALL weren't His. So no... that just doesn't work and one has to really stretch that passage to make that work. ALL were not sanctified because Jesus died on the cross. You will not be able to make that work anywhere in Scripture.

Hi Ken,

Scripture tells us that Christ died for the whole world, and Scripture also tells us that not every man will be eternally saved. How is it taking the universalism stand to believe both statements are true?

Many Blessings,
RW

ProjectPeter
Jan 9th 2009, 02:25 AM
Hi Ken,

Scripture tells us that Christ died for the whole world, and Scripture also tells us that not every man will be eternally saved. How is it taking the universalism stand to believe both statements are true?

Many Blessings,
RW
Was the whole world sanctified by the blood of Jesus?

reformedct
Jan 9th 2009, 02:39 AM
Was the whole world sanctified by the blood of Jesus?


this may sound weird but sanctified can literally mean set apart. So in a sense the Jews were a sanctified people. The covenant community(church gathering) is a "sanctified" community. SO when it says by which he was sanctified it makes me think of leaving the church community of faith. Similar to the verse that describes a person who has escaped the pollutions of the world with knowledge of Christ and are again entangled. In my mind this person who escaped was "sanctified" for a time, as is the person who was "sanctified" and counted the blood of the covenant a common thing. Im sure many will disagree but hey thats part of Christianity right? lol

bbutler
Jan 9th 2009, 03:51 AM
Many people come into a church hear the gosphel and are convicted of their spiritual condition, some even play along and go through the motions. But sooner or later they make a choice to walk away. They tasted of gods salvation, they heard his calling by the holy spirit but decieded that it was not for them, some may stay for years "ever learning" but never able to come to a saving knowledge . Most believe that there must be another way and are waiting for another crucifixtion of sorts that will allow them to live like they please but none will ever come again that meets the requirements of god.

ProjectPeter
Jan 9th 2009, 01:06 PM
this may sound weird but sanctified can literally mean set apart. So in a sense the Jews were a sanctified people. The covenant community(church gathering) is a "sanctified" community. SO when it says by which he was sanctified it makes me think of leaving the church community of faith. Similar to the verse that describes a person who has escaped the pollutions of the world with knowledge of Christ and are again entangled. In my mind this person who escaped was "sanctified" for a time, as is the person who was "sanctified" and counted the blood of the covenant a common thing. Im sure many will disagree but hey thats part of Christianity right? lol
I wouldn't disagree with you on either point. ;) But then if they were sanctified by the blood of Jesus... how can they not be saved unless Jesus died thus sanctifying all and again... don't think anyone is going to find a passage of Scripture that says the world became sanctified when Jesus died.

ProjectPeter
Jan 9th 2009, 01:08 PM
Many people come into a church hear the gosphel and are convicted of their spiritual condition, some even play along and go through the motions. But sooner or later they make a choice to walk away. They tasted of gods salvation, they heard his calling by the holy spirit but decieded that it was not for them, some may stay for years "ever learning" but never able to come to a saving knowledge . Most believe that there must be another way and are waiting for another crucifixtion of sorts that will allow them to live like they please but none will ever come again that meets the requirements of god.
That would certainly describe some folk.

mikebr
Jan 9th 2009, 01:10 PM
Hebrews 6

4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Help?

Are you saying that once a person loses their salvation then they have no hope of ever being saved again?

mikebr
Jan 9th 2009, 01:13 PM
I wouldn't disagree with you on either point. ;) But then if they were sanctified by the blood of Jesus... how can they not be saved unless Jesus died thus sanctifying all and again... don't think anyone is going to find a passage of Scripture that says the world became sanctified when Jesus died.


God was in Christ reconciling the WORLD to Himself. I guess you could say that there is no scripture saying that the world was santified but it was reconciled to Him. Can you be reconciled and not santified?

Yukerboy
Jan 9th 2009, 01:24 PM
Are you saying that once a person loses their salvation then they have no hope of ever being saved again?

Is that what you believe the writer of Hebrews is saying?

God promised that He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

ProjectPeter
Jan 9th 2009, 01:32 PM
God was in Christ reconciling the WORLD to Himself. I guess you could say that there is no scripture saying that the world was santified but it was reconciled to Him. Can you be reconciled and not santified?
Colossians 1:22 *yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach --
23 *if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

reformedct
Jan 9th 2009, 04:03 PM
Colossians 1:22 *yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach --
23 *if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

1st Corinthians 1:7-8

7 so that you are not lacking in any spiritual gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 8 who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Jude 1
To those who are called, beloved in God the Father and kept for [2] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Jude+1#f2) Jesus Christ:

Not only do we "keep" ourselves but we are also "kept". Its both. To deny one aspect is to be unbiblical. We are admonished to endure to the end but the Bible also says that Jesus is our Good Shephard and will not lose us. We must endure but we are also kept by God.

BroRog
Jan 9th 2009, 06:44 PM
If we picture God and man turned back to back in opposition to each other, the cross allowed God to turn around toward man. In that sense, God has forgiven everybody and is reconciled to all of mankind. Nevertheless, in order for salvation to become actualized in the life of any individual, that person must also turn around to face God, acknowledge his or her sin, repent, and seek God's favor. God has promised to honor such a request from an honest and contrite heart.

At that point, and after that, warfare has ended. God begins to work for us rather than against us.

Hallelujah.

ProjectPeter
Jan 9th 2009, 07:09 PM
1st Corinthians 1:7-8

7 so that you are not lacking in any spiritual gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 8 who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Jude 1
To those who are called, beloved in God the Father and kept for [2] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Jude+1#f2) Jesus Christ:

Not only do we "keep" ourselves but we are also "kept". Its both. To deny one aspect is to be unbiblical. We are admonished to endure to the end but the Bible also says that Jesus is our Good Shephard and will not lose us. We must endure but we are also kept by God.
So... you think what? Those verses cancel out the other? Think about it and see what you are doing here. I know what Corinthians says but rest assured that I am quite sure that Paul never intended for his introductory blessing to the Corinth Church to erase his teaching to the Colossian Church.... do you?

alethos
Jan 9th 2009, 07:35 PM
Seems like certain individuals are arriving at their theological position using a backwards method. By "backwards method" I mean falling into a trap where they force Scripture to align with their theology rather than allowing Scripture to shape their theology.

It happens all the time. We just can't ignore this fact or sweep it under the carpet.

mikebr
Jan 9th 2009, 07:38 PM
Is that what you believe the writer of Hebrews is saying?

God promised that He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.


I was asking you if you thought that was what it was saying. I didn't say what I thought it was saying.

mikebr
Jan 9th 2009, 07:43 PM
Colossians 1:22 *yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach --
23 *if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.
I fully intend to continue in the faith in spite of what some may say.:kiss:

Toymom
Jan 10th 2009, 05:51 AM
The passage speaks about the foundation. The foundation is God's work and is a sure foundation, that no man can lay.

When we have received Christ and have been born again, the foundation has been laid. We cannot add to that foundation, and we cannot take away from the foundation (It is finished)

If one should fall away, he can come back, but he cannot relay the foundation. What we do is build on the sure foundation, but let us build with Gold, Silver and Precious Stone, and not with wood, hay and stubble.
:agree: That is my understanding also.

RogerW
Jan 10th 2009, 06:51 PM
Hi Ken,

Scripture tells us that Christ died for the whole world, and Scripture also tells us that not every man will be eternally saved. How is it taking the universalism stand to believe both statements are true?

Many Blessings,
RW


Was the whole world sanctified by the blood of Jesus?

Does your question mean you don't believe both statements are true? I know you well enough to know that you would never say any verse of Scripture is not true. Therefore how do we reconcile the fact that Christ died for the whole world, and not every man will be eternally saved?

Many Blessings,
RW

alethos
Jan 10th 2009, 07:11 PM
Does your question mean you don't believe both statements are true? I know you well enough to know that you would never say any verse of Scripture is not true. Therefore how do we reconcile the fact that Christ died for the whole world, and not every man will be eternally saved?

Many Blessings,
RW

Even though that question was directed towards PP, I would like to answer your question with a brief answer.

1 John 4:14: "And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world"

Christ died for the sins of all men, for all mankind, for every person, for the whole world. However, individuals do not benefit from the death of Christ in a saving way until they come to Christ and believe on Him. God’s gift has been purchased, offered and extended to all, but must be personally received by faith.

ProjectPeter
Jan 10th 2009, 07:39 PM
Does your question mean you don't believe both statements are true? I know you well enough to know that you would never say any verse of Scripture is not true. Therefore how do we reconcile the fact that Christ died for the whole world, and not every man will be eternally saved?

Many Blessings,
RW
Christ dying for the world doesn't at all mean that the entire world... all of mankind... is sanctified.

Acts 26:16 *`But arise, and stand on your feet; for this purpose I have appeared to you, to appoint you a minister and a witness not only to the things which you have seen, but also to the things in which I will appear to you;
17 *delivering you from the Jewish people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you,
18 *to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, in order that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.´

It is only to those with faith in Him.

1 Corinthians 6:9 *Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 *nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 *And such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God.

The unrighteous are not sanctified. They are unrighteous... can't be sanctified. Not sure what is complicated about this really.

humbled
Jan 10th 2009, 07:54 PM
Christ dying for the world doesn't at all mean that the entire world... all of mankind... is sanctified. no ... just propitiated, right?

In Christianity, Propitiation is a theological (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theology) term denoting that by which God is rendered propitious, i.e., that 'satisfaction' or 'appeasement' by which it becomes consistent with His character and government to pardon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardon) and bless sinners.

propitiation - placation: the act of placating and overcoming distrust and animosity

propitiation - expiation: the act of atoning for sin or wrongdoing (especially appeasing a deity)

propitiation - That which turns aside the wrath of God from the sinner. The atonement of Jesus satisfies the just demands of the righteousness and wrath of God against sin

So what's the difference? None are under the wrath of God anymore if all are propitiated. God will no longer hold any accountable for their sin since Christ has borne the sins of everyone (if everyone has been propitiated)

A little consistency please? :)

ProjectPeter
Jan 10th 2009, 08:03 PM
no ... just propitiated, right?

In Christianity, Propitiation is a theological (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theology) term denoting that by which God is rendered propitious, i.e., that 'satisfaction' or 'appeasement' by which it becomes consistent with His character and government to pardon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardon) and bless sinners.

propitiation - placation: the act of placating and overcoming distrust and animosity

propitiation - expiation: the act of atoning for sin or wrongdoing (especially appeasing a deity)

propitiation - That which turns aside the wrath of God from the sinner. The atonement of Jesus satisfies the just demands of the righteousness and wrath of God against sin

So what's the difference? None are under the wrath of God anymore if all are propitiated. God will no longer hold any accountable for their sin since Christ has borne the sins of everyone (if everyone has been propitiated)

A little consistency please? :)
I am quite consistent John but nice try I suppose. You aren't saved yet. I am not saved yet. No one is saved yet that still is running in the race. We are, by faith. When we've endured to the end then we will in fact be saved in actuality. In truth, at that time... there will be no more need to hope or have faith. It will simply be. Then... we are all biblical secure for eternity. Until then... we must endure. Holding firm to that which we initially believed... etc.

humbled
Jan 10th 2009, 08:22 PM
I am quite consistent John but nice try I suppose. You aren't saved yet. I am not saved yet. No one is saved yet that still is running in the race. We are, by faith. When we've endured to the end then we will in fact be saved in actuality. In truth, at that time... there will be no more need to hope or have faith. It will simply be. Then... we are all biblical secure for eternity. Until then... we must endure. Holding firm to that which we initially believed... etc.And then you will have who to thank?

The beauty of the gospel (this is something recent with me) is that I am set free. Not from sin, but from the POWER of sin that is in the Law. I am not set free from anger. I am set free from the Law that says "do not murder". Because when that law is spoken to me, the sin within me rises up and disobeys that very law that was sent to bring me life! Romans 7. But now, having been set free from this Law by the blood of Christ, I no longer "have to" obey that Law because it is dead. The beauty of this, is that now that I'm set free from the commandment, I am now able to obey. Sin doesn't hold me prisoner any longer. I obey BECAUSE I'm set free, not in order to be set free. This is what faith is, Ken.

No more do I have to do anything to please God. What pleases God is Christ. And being in Christ is a work of the Spirit. I believe because it is real, it's not real because I believe. Good works come from being connected to the Vine. Being connected to the Vine comes when I am grafted (passively) to the Vine by the Father.

That is what grace means, Ken. You still rest in your own accomplishments. Read my sig. The end of your faith is your faith. It is not God. It is not Christ. You don't persevere because Christ is the Good Shepherd who doesn't lose any of His sheep. You persevere only if YOU persevere.

I love you, my friend. We've known each other for years. But your doctrine is all wrong. Christ did and does it all. That's why we praise Him. That's why we sing. That's why we offer Him our everything.

It is all the Son and none the sinner. Your perseverance is evidence that you're truly born again. Those who are truly born again will do this because it is true of them that they are His sheep. Those who don't prove they are posers. They prove they never truly received the truth. They prove they aren't His sheep.

For one to believe that they are only saved if ... is to not believe the gospel. The gospel is CHRIST SAVED HIS SHEEP. It is finished, Ken. It's not potential. That's blasphemy.

Read this to understand a key aspect of the gospel. It's based on Romans 4, where Abraham never once mentions the name Jesus. (http://reformedreasoning.blogspot.com/2008/11/what-is-gospel.html)

Be blessed, Ken.

reformedct
Jan 10th 2009, 08:26 PM
I am quite consistent John but nice try I suppose. You aren't saved yet. I am not saved yet. No one is saved yet that still is running in the race. We are, by faith. When we've endured to the end then we will in fact be saved in actuality. In truth, at that time... there will be no more need to hope or have faith. It will simply be. Then... we are all biblical secure for eternity. Until then... we must endure. Holding firm to that which we initially believed... etc.

however if we endure to the end it IS indeed evident and true that we were saved before we got to heaven.

Salvation is a process.

If you have begun it you will finish it.

We have been saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved

even though it is true that until we are in heaven the process is not fully complete, it doesnt mean that none of us arent already saved. Those whom he justified these he also glorified. All who are justified currently are indeed currently saved.

ProjectPeter
Jan 10th 2009, 08:41 PM
And then you will have who to thank?God... who else?


The beauty of the gospel (this is something recent with me) is that I am set free. Not from sin, but from the POWER of sin that is in the Law. I am not set free from anger. I am set free from the Law that says "do not murder". Because when that law is spoken to me, the sin within me rises up and disobeys that very law that was sent to bring me life! Romans 7. Move out of Romans 7 and move into Romans 8. Then you will be set free from even that bondage you are still in. What you are doing is ultimately excuses the sin that you live in such as anger.


But now, having been set free from this Law by the blood of Christ, I no longer "have to" obey that Law because it is dead. The beauty of this, is that now that I'm set free from the commandment, I am now able to obey. Sin doesn't hold me prisoner any longer. I obey BECAUSE I'm set free, not in order to be set free. This is what faith is, Ken.Uh... no it isn't. That's simply semantics trying to make something fit that doesn't fit and ultimately in the end is like... huh?


No more do I have to do anything to please God. What pleases God is Christ. And being in Christ is a work of the Spirit. I believe because it is real, it's not real because I believe. Good works come from being connected to the Vine. Being connected to the Vine comes when I am grafted (passively) to the Vine by the Father.[quote]Then why would we need to learn the things that are pleasing to God if that is only Christ? Nah... this is where religious speak gets us into trouble!

Ephesians 5:6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
7 Therefore do not be partakers with them;
8 for you were formerly darkness, but now you are light in the Lord; walk as children of light
9 (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness and righteousness and truth),
10 trying to learn what is pleasing to the Lord.
11 And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them;
12 for it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done by them in secret.
13 But all things become visible when they are exposed by the light, for everything that becomes visible is light.
14 For this reason it says, "Awake, sleeper, And arise from the dead, And Christ will shine on you."
15 ¶Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men, but as wise,
16 making the most of your time, because the days are evil.


[quote]That is what grace means, Ken. You still rest in your own accomplishments. Read my sig. The end of your faith is your faith. It is not God. It is not Christ. You don't persevere because Christ is the Good Shepherd who doesn't lose any of His sheep. You persevere only if YOU persevere. No... grace is even much more than that. You left out things such as a teacher which teaches us to say NO to ungodliness. Not such a little thing John. ;)



I love you, my friend. We've known each other for years. But your doctrine is all wrong. Christ did and does it all. That's why we praise Him. That's why we sing. That's why we offer Him our everything.Christ has done all of what? Do you make Christ responsible for your sin? When you fail is that Christ? When you deny Him... is that Christ in you denying Himself? Nah... my doctrine isn't wrong at all. It is Him who empowers you to walk. He doesn't walk for you.


It is all the Son and none the sinner. Your perseverance is evidence that you're truly born again. Those who are truly born again will do this because it is true of them that they are His sheep. Those who don't prove they are posers. They prove they never truly received the truth. They prove they aren't His sheep.

For one to believe that they are only saved if ... is to not believe the gospel. The gospel is CHRIST SAVED HIS SHEEP. It is finished, Ken. It's not potential. That's blasphemy.

Read this to understand a key aspect of the gospel. It's based on Romans 4, where Abraham never once mentions the name Jesus. (http://reformedreasoning.blogspot.com/2008/11/what-is-gospel.html)

Be blessed, Ken.Ah... didn't take you back long to start hollering blasphemy! Amazing really.

I'll look at the article in a bit.

ProjectPeter
Jan 10th 2009, 08:47 PM
however if we endure to the end it IS indeed evident and true that we were saved before we got to heaven.

Salvation is a process.

If you have begun it you will finish it.

We have been saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved

even though it is true that until we are in heaven the process is not fully complete, it doesnt mean that none of us arent already saved. Those whom he justified these he also glorified. All who are justified currently are indeed currently saved.
If we HAVE... then we would naturally be "are" but if we have and are... "will be" falls way short of making any sense at all. In other words... If we have and are then there is no need for "will be." We won't be something that we already are... we are already.

If I am a man now and was when I was born then I don't need to be changed to a man in eternity. I already am.

humbled
Jan 10th 2009, 09:28 PM
God... who else?you for your enduring faith, of course.


Move out of Romans 7 and move into Romans 8. Then you will be set free from even that bondage you are still in. What you are doing is ultimately excuses the sin that you live in such as anger.I don't live in sin, Ken. I am understanding that it is because I've been set free from the LAW that I am free from sin. For the power of sin IS the Law. And when you go around telling people they must do this and must do that or else, you are entangling them in more bondage, for the sin that lies within will come alive with the introduction of your new laws. Even if your "must do" is believe. You are enslaving them to the work of faith for favor from God. Romans 4.4 says that anything that puts God in our debt is to be considered a work ... ANYTHING. I know you deny this, but that's the scriptural teaching there.




Then why would we need to learn the things that are pleasing to God if that is only Christ? Nah... this is where religious speak gets us into trouble!

Ephesians 5:6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
7 Therefore do not be partakers with them;
8 for you were formerly darkness, but now you are light in the Lord; walk as children of light
9 (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness and righteousness and truth),
10 trying to learn what is pleasing to the Lord.
11 And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them;
12 for it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done by them in secret.
13 But all things become visible when they are exposed by the light, for everything that becomes visible is light.
14 For this reason it says, "Awake, sleeper, And arise from the dead, And Christ will shine on you."
15 ¶Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men, but as wise,
16 making the most of your time, because the days are evil.


No... grace is even much more than that. You left out things such as a teacher which teaches us to say NO to ungodliness. Not such a little thing John. ;)Why are we to say no to ungodliness, sir? Is it to gain a right standing with God? Is it to REMAIN in right standing with God? Or is it out of love for God? If Christ sets us free from the bondage of sin, then what is the result? Obedience, right? So the apostles are exhorting us to live as we are. They're essentially saying "you've been set free, now act like it". If you are to obey in order to gain favor, then you're in bondage. That's the truth, sir.


Christ has done all of what? Do you make Christ responsible for your sin? When you fail is that Christ? When you deny Him... is that Christ in you denying Himself? Nah... my doctrine isn't wrong at all. It is Him who empowers you to walk. He doesn't walk for you. This is true. I'm not sure where you came up with this stuff, tho, to be honest. The "all" I'm speaking of is all in regards to salvation. Context, brother. All doesn't mean all things ever. It means all things we are speaking of (in this case, salvation). Sorry I didn't make myself clear.


Ah... didn't take you back long to start hollering blasphemy! Amazing really.

I'll look at the article in a bit.give me a break. it is. for one to say that Christ isn't sufficient for salvation is to deny Him. That's the definition of blasphemy (other than the ray Comfort definition, that is). It was not said lightly, and not said pejoratively towards you in particular.

ProjectPeter
Jan 10th 2009, 10:40 PM
you for your enduring faith, of course.Why would I boast for doing simply what it is that I am supposed to do? That makes no sense. Would you brag for being a good father and husband or are you simply supposed to be a good father and husband? There is nothing to brag about... it's simply doing what you ought to do.

And then there is the simple truth of that there Sola Scriptura thing again. Bible tells us to endure. It doesn't say "don't sweat it because you are guaranteed to endure." It doesn't say "Jesus endures for you so you just carry on in your little old human form so God gets alllll the glooorrrry!" Bible says... He who endures... Bible tells us to endure. I don't suspect the writers were sending super secret code messages to Jesus telling Him to continue to endure... do you? So if it is telling us to endure... remember John... Scripture alone... who am I to argue with it?


I don't live in sin, Ken. I am understanding that it is because I've been set free from the LAW that I am free from sin. For the power of sin IS the Law. And when you go around telling people they must do this and must do that or else, you are entangling them in more bondage, for the sin that lies within will come alive with the introduction of your new laws. Even if your "must do" is believe. You are enslaving them to the work of faith for favor from God. Romans 4.4 says that anything that puts God in our debt is to be considered a work ... ANYTHING. I know you deny this, but that's the scriptural teaching there.Okay... so let's go with this sort of logic. The same Paul who you credit for such a grand revelation said crazy stuff like this... and amazingly in the same letter to the same people!

Romans 12:4 For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function,
5 so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.
6 And since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let each exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith;
7 if service, in his serving; or he who teaches, in his teaching;
8 or he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.
9 ¶Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil; cling to what is good.
10 Be devoted to one another in brotherly love; give preference to one another in honor;
11 not lagging behind in diligence, fervent in spirit, serving the Lord;
12 rejoicing in hope, persevering in tribulation, devoted to prayer,
13 contributing to the needs of the saints, practicing hospitality.
14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and curse not.
15 Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep.
16 Be of the same mind toward one another; do not be haughty in mind, but associate with the lowly. Do not be wise in your own estimation.
17 Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men.
18 If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men.
19 Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord.
20 "BUT IF YOUR ENEMY IS HUNGRY, FEED HIM, AND IF HE IS THIRSTY, GIVE HIM A DRINK; FOR IN SO DOING YOU WILL HEAP BURNING COALS UPON HIS HEAD."
21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Romans 13:1 Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.
2 Therefore he who resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.
3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same;
4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil.
5 Wherefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience´ sake.
6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing.
7 Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.
8 ¶Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
9 For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; love therefore is the fulfillment of the law.
11 ¶And this do, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed.
12 The night is almost gone, and the day is at hand. Let us therefore lay aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light.
13 Let us behave properly as in the day, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual promiscuity and sensuality, not in strife and jealousy.
14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lusts.

I mean think of it... MY GOODNESS THE BONDAGE HE PUT THEM IN!!!!

Come on John... you're missing something still!



Why are we to say no to ungodliness, sir? Is it to gain a right standing with God? Is it to REMAIN in right standing with God? Or is it out of love for God? If Christ sets us free from the bondage of sin, then what is the result? Obedience, right? So the apostles are exhorting us to live as we are. They're essentially saying "you've been set free, now act like it". If you are to obey in order to gain favor, then you're in bondage. That's the truth, sir.Thought I was pretty clear. It's simply what we ought to do eh?


This is true. I'm not sure where you came up with this stuff, tho, to be honest. The "all" I'm speaking of is all in regards to salvation. Context, brother. All doesn't mean all things ever. It means all things we are speaking of (in this case, salvation). Sorry I didn't make myself clear.

give me a break. it is. for one to say that Christ isn't sufficient for salvation is to deny Him. That's the definition of blasphemy (other than the ray Comfort definition, that is). It was not said lightly, and not said pejoratively towards you in particular.Shoot... you Reformed guys are liking old Ray less and less now eh? :lol:

Who said Christ isn't sufficient John? Please show me where that was said or implied.

BadDog
Jan 11th 2009, 02:59 AM
Hebrews 6

4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Help?One thing is clear: if this is saying that you can lose your salvation (which is not what the author is writing about), then he is also saying that once lost, you can never get it back. Does that make sense?

I have posted in detail on this text in the past. Here's a link:

http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1219359&postcount=338

and

http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1219359&postcount=343

and

http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1239219&postcount=361

and

http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=190340&postcount=13

and regarding the meaning of METANOEW ("to repent"):
http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=591268&postcount=14

BD

Butch5
Jan 11th 2009, 05:15 PM
If we picture God and man turned back to back in opposition to each other, the cross allowed God to turn around toward man. In that sense, God has forgiven everybody and is reconciled to all of mankind. Nevertheless, in order for salvation to become actualized in the life of any individual, that person must also turn around to face God, acknowledge his or her sin, repent, and seek God's favor. God has promised to honor such a request from an honest and contrite heart.

At that point, and after that, warfare has ended. God begins to work for us rather than against us.

Hallelujah.

Nice post BroRog.

Butch5
Jan 11th 2009, 05:17 PM
Seems like certain individuals are arriving at their theological position using a backwards method. By "backwards method" I mean falling into a trap where they force Scripture to align with their theology rather than allowing Scripture to shape their theology.

It happens all the time. We just can't ignore this fact or sweep it under the carpet.

Welcome to the Church in America

Butch5
Jan 11th 2009, 05:38 PM
humbled---I don't live in sin, Ken. I am understanding that it is because I've been set free from the LAW that I am free from sin. For the power of sin IS the Law. And when you go around telling people they must do this and must do that or else, you are entangling them in more bondage, for the sin that lies within will come alive with the introduction of your new laws. Even if your "must do" is believe. You are enslaving them to the work of faith for favor from God. Romans 4.4 says that anything that puts God in our debt is to be considered a work ... ANYTHING. I know you deny this, but that's the scriptural teaching there.


The same Paul in the same letter also said this,

Romans 2:5-7 ( KJV ) 5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

In quoting Abraham in Romans 4 regarding works, you need to do so in context. Consider the basis for Paul's statement, he says "what shall we say then", this indicates that what Paul is about to say is predicated on what he has just stated in Romans 3. In Romans 3, Paul is contrasting faith, with the works of the Law. The statements made about Abraham in chapter 4 are based on this contrast of faith and works of the law. So, when Paul says,

Romans 4:4-5 ( KJV ) 4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

He is not saying that there is nothing that we have to do. He is saying that to him works the works of hte law, his reward is not grace but of debt. And when he says, to him that worketh not (worketh not the works of the law), but believes, his faith is counted for righteousness. The works Spoken of in Romans 4 are clearly works of the law and not woks of obedience or righteousness.

reformedct
Jan 11th 2009, 11:10 PM
The same Paul in the same letter also said this,

Romans 2:5-7 ( KJV ) 5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

In quoting Abraham in Romans 4 regarding works, you need to do so in context. Consider the basis for Paul's statement, he says "what shall we say then", this indicates that what Paul is about to say is predicated on what he has just stated in Romans 3. In Romans 3, Paul is contrasting faith, with the works of the Law. The statements made about Abraham in chapter 4 are based on this contrast of faith and works of the law. So, when Paul says,

Romans 4:4-5 ( KJV ) 4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

He is not saying that there is nothing that we have to do. He is saying that to him works the works of hte law, his reward is not grace but of debt. And when he says, to him that worketh not (worketh not the works of the law), but believes, his faith is counted for righteousness. The works Spoken of in Romans 4 are clearly works of the law and not woks of obedience or righteousness.

hmmm. so what does it mean to be under grace?

Partaker of Christ
Jan 12th 2009, 01:39 AM
I am quite consistent John but nice try I suppose. You aren't saved yet. I am not saved yet. No one is saved yet that still is running in the race. We are, by faith. When we've endured to the end then we will in fact be saved in actuality. In truth, at that time... there will be no more need to hope or have faith. It will simply be. Then... we are all biblical secure for eternity. Until then... we must endure. Holding firm to that which we initially believed... etc.

Hi Ken!

Just to let you know, I am eternally saved now.
Salvation is the work of I AM

reformedct
Jan 12th 2009, 01:44 AM
Hi Ken!

Just to let you know, I am eternally saved now.
Salvation is the work of I AM

me too.

By grace you have been saved thru faith.

By grace reformedct has already been saved thru faith.

I have been saved thru faith. I guess you guys somehow have faith but have not been saved?

am i experiencing the fullness of my salvation? no, but nevertheless i have been saved.

I am saved right now. If i die i will go to heaven because i have been saved

ProjectPeter
Jan 12th 2009, 01:50 AM
Hi Ken!

Just to let you know, I am eternally saved now.
Salvation is the work of I AM
So then you have no hope for eternal life?

Partaker of Christ
Jan 12th 2009, 02:29 AM
So then you have no hope for eternal life?

Of course I have!

Just because I have not yet seen it, does that mean that I have not yet recieved it?

Do you have money in the bank?
Have you been to the bank and seen it?
Does the fact that you have not seen the money in the bank, mean that it is not there?

Have you ever seen God?
Is your hope in God, who you have not seen?
Is your hope a may be and may be not type of hope, or is your hope a certainty hope?

This hope is an anchor for the soul, to keep it from being tossed about by the waves. My anchor is fixed to the Rock, and the sure foundation.

Your anchor is fixed to your own ability to enduring to the end.

reformedct
Jan 12th 2009, 02:29 AM
So then you have no hope for eternal life?


We hope in what we do not see. If we see it is no longer hope. I am already saved, and my hope is in the consummation and fullness of what i already have. Do i see Jesus? Do i see heaven? Do i see my glorified body? Nope. I am hoping for those things which are not seen. Just because something is not seen doesnt mean its not there. I hope in God though i do not see Him right now.

ProjectPeter
Jan 12th 2009, 02:44 AM
Of course I have!

Just because I have not yet seen it, does that mean that I have not yet recieved it?Well... not sure why you hope for something that you already have.




Do you have money in the bank?
Have you been to the bank and seen it?
Does the fact that you have not seen the money in the bank, mean that it is not there?Shoot... I wish! ;)


Have you ever seen God?
Is your hope in God, who you have not seen?
Is your hope a may be and may be not type of hope, or is your hope a certainty hope? That is called FAITH. :)


This hope is an anchor for the soul, to keep it from being tossed about by the waves. My anchor is fixed to the Rock, and the sure foundation.

Your anchor is fixed to your own ability to enduring to the end.I have no ability save what God equips me for and works through me... if I hold fast and firm to what I first believed... other such sayings in Scripture that you guys sort of never really respond to save hollering... "but what about _______________ (insert what you think is a trump card passage and ignore the passage spoken of). ;)

ProjectPeter
Jan 12th 2009, 02:46 AM
We hope in what we do not see. If we see it is no longer hope. I am already saved, and my hope is in the consummation and fullness of what i already have. Do i see Jesus? Do i see heaven? Do i see my glorified body? Nope. I am hoping for those things which are not seen. Just because something is not seen doesnt mean its not there. I hope in God though i do not see Him right now.
Again... that is faith. But until you see it and consumate it... it isn't yet a reality. You just made my case if you stop and think about what you actually just said. ;)

humbled
Jan 12th 2009, 05:43 AM
So then you have no hope for eternal life?
I would say his hope comes because of his security. Hope, when speaking of the promises of God, is not wishful thinking, but rather trust in God that He will fulfill His promise (see Rom 4).

Eternal security is a byproduct of the faith of Abraham.

ProjectPeter
Jan 12th 2009, 01:13 PM
I would say his hope comes because of his security. Hope, when speaking of the promises of God, is not wishful thinking, but rather trust in God that He will fulfill His promise (see Rom 4).

Eternal security is a byproduct of the faith of Abraham.
Sure... that again is faith. At the redemption of our bodies, if we have continued in that same faith, we will in fact be adopted sons of God.

Veretax
Jan 12th 2009, 02:02 PM
Hebrews 6

4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Help?

My thoughts on the passage are twofold.

First I think it is aimed at the same "double minded" man that James speaks about in his epistles.


James 1:4-8 (NKJV)
4 But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing. 5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him. 6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. 7 For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; 8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.

James 4:7-10 (NKJV)
7 Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. 8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9 Lament and mourn and weep! Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and He will lift you up.


I believe that this person is much the same. He participates in the body of Christ, has perhaps some form or disguise of godliness, but he's actually in reality a fence straddler. Look what Paul said to Timothy:


2 Timothy 3:1-9 (NKJV)
1 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good,
4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! 6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith; 9 but they will progress no further, for their folly will be manifest to all, as theirs also was.

Paul warned Timothy that there are some who will in fact try to be a part of the brethren, but their mind is clearly not on the things of God, but on themselves, on money, power, caught up in pride or strife. They are in fact imposters. They may also be the sort of people that John writes about in the Church of Laodicea.

Revelation 3:14-22 (NKJV)
14 “And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, ‘These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God: 15 “I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. 17 Because you say, ‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked— 18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. 21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. 22 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.” ’ ”


This double mind man as in James , this fence straddler as in revelation, both of them have the appearance of faith, but when examined in the heart, they are uncommitted to Christ, they waver, they do not stand with their feet firmly planted on the path which Gold has called them, and because of that they fall away.

Now, Hebrews, may be an absurdity here, but even if it is not, I think that it is clear that one who falls away from belief could not even be renewed to repentance. However, what is this repentance, if it is not turning from your old way to Christ? Remember the Israelites followed the sacrifices in the temple, and daily the Priests would intercede on behalf of the nation. This sacrifice continued from the time of the Exodus onward, but Christ was the ultimate sacrifice. He cannot be crucified again for sins, it has already been finished.

Therefore I believe that this passage is either speaking of the Double Minded man or fence straddler as I've already said, or it is making it plain, that true repentance happens once, when you turn to Christ. There is no need for a believe to then repent again to be saved, because once they have repented it is finished. I would also take it as a warning to those who think that Sin is without consequence, that just because they have repented and been forgiven by Christ, does not license them to Sin either.

I realize that's a lot to get out of one small section of verses, but in truth this is what I believe the bible as a whole is saying. Repentance is a life turning from Sin to Christ, it is a one time event in effect, and cannot be repeated to turn from Sin to salvation again, as that would be as if Christ's crucifixion was a insufficient. As it said such a person makes a mockery of Christ. Therefore I believe the message hidden in those verses is multi-facted.

humbled
Jan 12th 2009, 02:12 PM
Sure... that again is faith. At the redemption of our bodies, if we have continued in that same faith, we will in fact be adopted sons of God.
As the writer of Hebrews says, if we hold fast, then it is BECAUSE we are adopted sons of God.

Heb 3.6b And we are his house if indeed we hold fast our confidence and our boasting in our hope.

See the word ARE ... it does not say "will be" .. it speaks presently about a future result. It says that RIGHT NOW, AT THIS TIME we are of His (God's) house, if we end up having held fast to our confidence and hope.

And down in verse 14, he speaks with the same phrasology:

14For we have come [past tense] to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.

The author twice speaks of a current condition of the person being proven by (not dependent upon) a future result. He is saying that we ARE NOW in this state if we end up holding out in our faith.

So the reformed stand that perseverance is EVIDENCE of salvation is biblically supported.

ProjectPeter
Jan 12th 2009, 02:16 PM
As the writer of Hebrews says, if we hold fast, then it is BECAUSE we are adopted sons of God.

Heb 3.6b And we are his house if indeed we hold fast our confidence and our boasting in our hope.

See the word ARE ... it does not say "will be" .. it speaks presently about a future result. It says that RIGHT NOW, AT THIS TIME we are of His (God's) house, if we end up having held fast to our confidence and hope.

And down in verse 14, he speaks with the same phrasology:

14For we have come [past tense] to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.

The author twice speaks of a current condition of the person being proven by (not dependent upon) a future result. He is saying that we ARE NOW in this state if we end up holding out in our faith.

So the reformed stand that perseverance is EVIDENCE of salvation is biblically supported.
Enduring to the end is certainly evidence. To me that would be a no-brainer. We have never disagreed on that. Our only disagreement is that you would say one was never "saved, by faith" if they didn't endure to the end. I say sure they were and even a vine of Christ. They were just severed from Christ because they didn't continue, hold fast, stand firm... etc. in that faith. Which is also the warning the writer of Hebrews gives throughout the letter.

humbled
Jan 12th 2009, 02:18 PM
Enduring to the end is certainly evidence. To me that would be a no-brainer. We have never disagreed on that. Our only disagreement is that you would say one was never "saved, by faith" if they didn't endure to the end. I say sure they were and even a vine of Christ. They were just severed from Christ because they didn't continue, hold fast, stand firm... etc. in that faith. Which is also the warning the writer of Hebrews gives throughout the letter.What was the person saved from if they didn't persevere?

What does it mean, to you, to be "saved"?

Veretax
Jan 12th 2009, 02:28 PM
More to the point. Why would someone who has been blessed of God to believe in Christ with his whole being every want to turn and go back to the life they once lived? This is a point I have a hard time reckoning for someone who has true faith. It reminds me of the Catholic floor mates I had in college, who boasted about coming back from confession but then went out that very night to engage in drunken behavior, revelry, and sexual immorality of various sorts. What effect is confession of such things if it does not produce a walk and how can you walk on a path toward's Christ and then suddenly decide to change course. This is something that my mind just cannot wrap around.

I do not ascribe to the idea that we maintain our selves in the way, if God gave us the grace and opened our hearts to receive the Gospel, then why would God ever leave the final determination of our ultimate destiny to heaven or hell into Man's hand? that seems a very prideful way to think that yes Jesus Saves, but oh I am keeping this and doing this, and I don't need Christ to continue in that path. We were incapable of our own to do right things according to scripture. Without Christ our best efforts were as mired rags. So why do some believe that after we repent and turn to Christ that we then on our own are able to do Good works? Ridiculous, it is only because of Christ and the Holy Spirit within us that we are able to do anything for God.

Does anyone disagree with me on this point?

humbled
Jan 12th 2009, 02:34 PM
More to the point. Why would someone who has been blessed of God to believe in Christ with his whole being every want to turn and go back to the life they once lived? This is a point I have a hard time reckoning for someone who has true faith. It reminds me of the Catholic floor mates I had in college, who boasted about coming back from confession but then went out that very night to engage in drunken behavior, revelry, and sexual immorality of various sorts. What effect is confession of such things if it does not produce a walk and how can you walk on a path toward's Christ and then suddenly decide to change course. This is something that my mind just cannot wrap around.

I do not ascribe to the idea that we maintain our selves in the way, if God gave us the grace and opened our hearts to receive the Gospel, then why would God ever leave the final determination of our ultimate destiny to heaven or hell into Man's hand? that seems a very prideful way to think that yes Jesus Saves, but oh I am keeping this and doing this, and I don't need Christ to continue in that path.

Does anyone disagree with me on this point?I don't disagree.

You've nailed it, brother. Man indeed wants to think that he contributes some part of his own salvation .. that's the case for every single religion in the world but Christianity. For a CHRISTIAN to say "God did His part, but I must do mine" is to be like the rest of the religions in the world. Either they are very naive about the things of God, or else they don't know the gospel and have not learned who Jesus is. As Martin Luther put it:

"If any man doth ascribe of salvation, even the very least, to the free will of man, he knoweth nothing of grace, and he hath not learnt Jesus Christ aright."
Martin Luther

ProjectPeter
Jan 12th 2009, 02:37 PM
What was the person saved from if they didn't persevere?

What does it mean, to you, to be "saved"?Sin... they escaped the defilement of the world. ;)

ProjectPeter
Jan 12th 2009, 02:40 PM
More to the point. Why would someone who has been blessed of God to believe in Christ with his whole being every want to turn and go back to the life they once lived? This is a point I have a hard time reckoning for someone who has true faith. It reminds me of the Catholic floor mates I had in college, who boasted about coming back from confession but then went out that very night to engage in drunken behavior, revelry, and sexual immorality of various sorts. What effect is confession of such things if it does not produce a walk and how can you walk on a path toward's Christ and then suddenly decide to change course. This is something that my mind just cannot wrap around.

I do not ascribe to the idea that we maintain our selves in the way, if God gave us the grace and opened our hearts to receive the Gospel, then why would God ever leave the final determination of our ultimate destiny to heaven or hell into Man's hand? that seems a very prideful way to think that yes Jesus Saves, but oh I am keeping this and doing this, and I don't need Christ to continue in that path. We were incapable of our own to do right things according to scripture. Without Christ our best efforts were as mired rags. So why do some believe that after we repent and turn to Christ that we then on our own are able to do Good works? Ridiculous, it is only because of Christ and the Holy Spirit within us that we are able to do anything for God.

Does anyone disagree with me on this point?And again... who says we don't need Christ? I think folks just make stuff like this up because I am certainly not saying that nor are any others in the thread on either side of the discussion.

Veretax
Jan 12th 2009, 02:42 PM
I don't disagree.

You've nailed it, brother. Man indeed wants to think that he contributes some part of his own salvation .. that's the case for every single religion in the world but Christianity. For a CHRISTIAN to say "God did His part, but I must do mine" is to be like the rest of the religions in the world. Either they are very naive about the things of God, or else they don't know the gospel and have not learned who Jesus is. As Martin Luther put it:

"If any man doth ascribe of salvation, even the very least, to the free will of man, he knoweth nothing of grace, and he hath not learnt Jesus Christ aright."
Martin Luther


The only thing I believe that Man contributes, is his initial step of Faith, and in reality we are only able to do that because his Holy Spirit Convicts the heart, and thus draws us to a conclusion which thus results in said Faith, after that, his spirit comes within us and lives within us, and I believe that at that point we are a new creature and are no longer slaves to our old nature, but are compelled to righteousness.

ProjectPeter
Jan 12th 2009, 02:42 PM
I don't disagree.

You've nailed it, brother. Man indeed wants to think that he contributes some part of his own salvation .. that's the case for every single religion in the world but Christianity. For a CHRISTIAN to say "God did His part, but I must do mine" is to be like the rest of the religions in the world. Either they are very naive about the things of God, or else they don't know the gospel and have not learned who Jesus is. As Martin Luther put it:

"If any man doth ascribe of salvation, even the very least, to the free will of man, he knoweth nothing of grace, and he hath not learnt Jesus Christ aright."
Martin Luther
Wonder if that came from God or one of his daily conversations with the devil (something that he spoke about and wrote about).

ProjectPeter
Jan 12th 2009, 02:44 PM
The only thing I believe that Man contributes, is his initial step of Faith, and in reality we are only able to do that because his Holy Spirit Convicts the heart, and thus draws us to a conclusion which thus results in said Faith, after that, his spirit comes within us and lives within us, and I believe that at that point we are a new creature and are no longer slaves to our old nature, but are compelled to righteousness.
I'd even go as far to agree that God GIVES us that measure of faith to believe. So I wouldn't even attribute that part to man. ;)

Veretax
Jan 12th 2009, 02:51 PM
And again... who says we don't need Christ? I think folks just make stuff like this up because I am certainly not saying that nor are any others in the thread on either side of the discussion.

What I am saying is that what I perceive in those who believe they can "lose" their salvation, or must thus "persevere" seem to believe in arrogance that maintaining or persevering is an act of a Man, when in reality even if such things do happen, they must be through Christ.

It may seem odd for someone like me who is no longer a Calvinist to come back to this point but here it is:


Romans 8:28-30 (NKJV)
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Who did he foreknow? those who would come to repentance and faith in Christ, and then, those he Foreknew he predestined, predetermined to be conformed tot he Image of Christ, that Christ would be the firstborn among many believers, and yet even those he pedestined or predetermined (to what but to be conformed to the image of Christ) these he also called, and these he also justified, and glorified.

Cutting to the point, God knows who will believe, and he determined that those who would believe would be conformed unto the image of Christ, and we are called, to what if not to be witnesses for him, and we are justified. And its shocking but he also glorifies. To those of us who believe, how can we possibly believe that we will walk in christ's path on our own, when Paul makes it clear, we who believe are being conformed to the image of Christ.

The language of that verse is crystal clear to me. If we believe, then God will conform us to the image of Christ. We don't exactly have a 'choice' in that matter. So knowing that, would God confirm someone who believes into someone who despises Christ? Noone speaking by the Spirit calls Christ accursed, therefore, I affirm that if we Believe, God has already set our salvation as done and begins immediately the process of sanctification, by which we are made like His Son.

Veretax
Jan 12th 2009, 02:56 PM
I'd even go as far to agree that God GIVES us that measure of faith to believe. So I wouldn't even attribute that part to man. ;)

That is a matter of personal faith frankly. Whether you believe God gives you that measure of faith, or merely enables you in our human frailities to exercise it unto salvation, matters little to me. The point is that such a true Faith will produce fruit.

I do not find the free will of man, or the sovereignty of God to be opposed on this matter, I believe God does the work that enables man to take that step, and that man while he still has the choice to reject it, also can make the choice to accept it and believe. That is the center and turning point of life, if you believe on Christ, then it is done. Period, now does that mean we won't stumble and sin? Of course not, but there is now therefore no condemnation for that sin for those who are In Christ Jesus.

You see a problem it seems where I do not, but it hardly matters in the grand scheme of things, by faith are you saved through grace, and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God not of Works least any should boast. Whether you believe that God gives us the measure or faith, or simply removes the blinders so that we can see with our own frail human understanding of faith is really irrelevant to me.

ProjectPeter
Jan 12th 2009, 03:16 PM
That is a matter of personal faith frankly. Whether you believe God gives you that measure of faith, or merely enables you in our human frailities to exercise it unto salvation, matters little to me. The point is that such a true Faith will produce fruit.

I do not find the free will of man, or the sovereignty of God to be opposed on this matter, I believe God does the work that enables man to take that step, and that man while he still has the choice to reject it, also can make the choice to accept it and believe. That is the center and turning point of life, if you believe on Christ, then it is done. Period, now does that mean we won't stumble and sin? Of course not, but there is now therefore no condemnation for that sin for those who are In Christ Jesus.

You see a problem it seems where I do not, but it hardly matters in the grand scheme of things, by faith are you saved through grace, and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God not of Works least any should boast. Whether you believe that God gives us the measure or faith, or simply removes the blinders so that we can see with our own frail human understanding of faith is really irrelevant to me.
Me too truth be told but I figured some reading would have to fight a migrane the rest of the day seeing me say it. ;)

alethos
Jan 12th 2009, 04:19 PM
Man indeed wants to think that he contributes some part of his own salvation ..

Paul and Silas believed so also. Were they wrong?

Acts 16:30 Sirs, (asked the Phillipian jailer) what must I do to be saved?
Act 16:31 And they (Paul and Silas) said, Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved

In verse 31, the words "Believe on the Lord Jesus" is an imperative command.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 12th 2009, 06:58 PM
Well... not sure why you hope for something that you already have.

Shoot... I wish! ;)

That is called FAITH. :)

I have no ability save what God equips me for and works through me... if I hold fast and firm to what I first believed... other such sayings in Scripture that you guys sort of never really respond to save hollering... "but what about _______________ (insert what you think is a trump card passage and ignore the passage spoken of). ;)

But that is not true Ken?
That question has been answered many times, but you do not accept it.
If we hold fast and firm is evidence that we have truly believed. If we have fruit, then there must be root. If we are firmly rooted and grounded in love.

Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
Col 2:7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Again I will ask; If we have received Christ Jesus the Lord, have we not received Salvation?
Can we have Christ Jesus, who is the way, the truth and the life, and not have Salvation?

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Now let us try again:

Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Now we are saved by hope (not will be saved, but are saved)
Only we have not yet seen
Does 'not yet seen' mean we do not yet have?

ProjectPeter
Jan 12th 2009, 07:05 PM
But that is not true Ken?
That question has been answered many times, but you do not accept it.
If we hold fast and firm is evidence that we have truly believed. If we have fruit, then there must be root. If we are firmly rooted and grounded in love.

Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
Col 2:7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Again I will ask; If we have received Christ Jesus the Lord, have we not received Salvation?
Can we have Christ Jesus, who is the way, the truth and the life, and not have Salvation?

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Now let us try again:

Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Now we are saved by hope (not will be saved, but are saved)
Only we have not yet seen
Does 'not yet seen' mean we do not yet have?
As long as you remain/abide in Him then it's all good. If you don't... then it is not all good.

As to the "are" stuff... yes WE ARE... by faith. If we ARE NOT then there is no faith. Again... not complicated at all!

reformedct
Jan 12th 2009, 07:06 PM
But that is not true Ken?
That question has been answered many times, but you do not accept it.
If we hold fast and firm is evidence that we have truly believed. If we have fruit, then there must be root. If we are firmly rooted and grounded in love.

Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
Col 2:7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Again I will ask; If we have received Christ Jesus the Lord, have we not received Salvation?
Can we have Christ Jesus, who is the way, the truth and the life, and not have Salvation?

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Now let us try again:

Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Now we are saved by hope (not will be saved, but are saved)
Only we have not yet seen
Does 'not yet seen' mean we do not yet have?

yes. this simply says we dont see what we have been promised. We have been promised eternal life even though we dont see it. This does not mean that we dont currently posses eternal life, it simply means we are not visually and fully living in the fullness of it. I dont see heaven, i dont see Jesus, I dont see God, I dont see my glorified body and i dont see a redeemed world, but i know that i am an heir to those things because God is working in me currently. Thats why the Bible says hold fast to our CONFIDENCE

faith is not blind hope. Faith is the EVIDENCE of things not seen. Faith is conviction. Faith is not just saying, well im not sure, but OK i believe. God wants us to be convinced that He is real. He wants us to be convinced that Jesus is real. For all who have been born again they have an internal witness that makes it impossible to DISPROVE Jesus. God wants us so convinced that we will build a boat in the middle of the desert. He wants us convinced. We dont just hope for the sake of hope because maybe it will happen or maybe it wont.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 12th 2009, 07:21 PM
Enduring to the end is certainly evidence. To me that would be a no-brainer. We have never disagreed on that. Our only disagreement is that you would say one was never "saved, by faith" if they didn't endure to the end. I say sure they were and even a vine of Christ. They were just severed from Christ because they didn't continue, hold fast, stand firm... etc. in that faith. Which is also the warning the writer of Hebrews gives throughout the letter.

I don't see how being 'taken away' from the vine = not being saved?

1Co 5:4 When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus,
1Co 5:5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 12th 2009, 07:27 PM
Sin... they escaped the defilement of the world. ;)

So, when Adam had no sin, was he saved (did he have the life of Christ in him)

reformedct
Jan 12th 2009, 07:53 PM
I don't see how being 'taken away' from the vine = not being saved?

1Co 5:4 When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus,
1Co 5:5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

A very good pastor was reading about the "vine" analogy.

First off look at the immediate audience. The disciples, who were Jews. What did they have in mind about a vine? I think it was David or Joshua that said, you have brought a vine out of Egypt, representing the nation of Israel coming out of Egypt. Then Jesus comes along and says i am the TRUE vine. Basically illustrating that He is the living vine, the seed that was promised. In my view, the branches being broken off is similar to what Paul was saying to the Gentiles about being wild olives grafted in. The Jews that did not believe in the True Vine were broken off because of unbelief. Jesus was showing that Israel is not just a corparate people but that He is the true vine of Israel. The branches in the "vine" of Israel that do not accept Christ are broken off. As Paul said they were broken off because of unbelief. Also, as Jesus is now the vine also unto the Gentiles, all Gentiles who do not believe will also be "broken off" from the vine

so imo it is not about losing salvation, it is about the fulfillment of the vine and the breaking off of those who do not believe and abide in the true vine. We must be very careful when we try to take a parable and draw deep theology out of an example of what the kingdom is LIKE

just my 2 cents:cool:

Veretax
Jan 12th 2009, 08:02 PM
As long as you remain/abide in Him then it's all good. If you don't... then it is not all good.

As to the "are" stuff... yes WE ARE... by faith. If we ARE NOT then there is no faith. Again... not complicated at all!


Do we abide in him? Or does he abide in us?

1 Peter 1:10-11 (NKJV)
10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.

Yet we know:

Ga 3:10-14 (NKJV)

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”

13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Plus we know from Ephesians that if we trust Him (Jesus) that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise. (Can God ever become Lax in his promises? Certainly not!)

Eph 1:13-14 (NKJV)

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.



In addition we know that the Lord is the Spirit, and in where the Spirit of the Lord is therein is found liberty! Not only that, but we are being transformed into the same image as Christ by what else but the Spirit of the Lord!

2 Co 3:13-18 (NKJV)

17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.


Furthermore, we are not maintaining the Spirit within us by the works of the law, as some would say we are saved by works.


Ga 3:2-9 (NKJV)

2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?

5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.


Lastly, it is by the Spirit that we are baptized (Immersed) into the body of Christ:

1 Co 12:12-14 (NKJV)

Unity and Diversity in One Body

12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body— whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For in fact the body is not one member but many.



Those who are saved have the Spirit and will thus walk by the Spirit. Those who do not have it, will no doubt not be able to continue in 'works' but will fall away.

ProjectPeter
Jan 12th 2009, 11:31 PM
I don't see how being 'taken away' from the vine = not being saved?

1Co 5:4 When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus,
1Co 5:5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.Uh... being separated from Christ isn't being in Christ. Just as you example... if his spirit needs saved on the day of the Lord... what does that say about his spirit then at that moment?

ProjectPeter
Jan 12th 2009, 11:33 PM
So, when Adam had no sin, was he saved (did he have the life of Christ in him)
In a sense... sure he did. He was certainly "saved". Where are you trying to stretch this?

ProjectPeter
Jan 12th 2009, 11:34 PM
A very good pastor was reading about the "vine" analogy.

First off look at the immediate audience. The disciples, who were Jews. What did they have in mind about a vine? I think it was David or Joshua that said, you have brought a vine out of Egypt, representing the nation of Israel coming out of Egypt. Then Jesus comes along and says i am the TRUE vine. Basically illustrating that He is the living vine, the seed that was promised. In my view, the branches being broken off is similar to what Paul was saying to the Gentiles about being wild olives grafted in. The Jews that did not believe in the True Vine were broken off because of unbelief. Jesus was showing that Israel is not just a corparate people but that He is the true vine of Israel. The branches in the "vine" of Israel that do not accept Christ are broken off. As Paul said they were broken off because of unbelief. Also, as Jesus is now the vine also unto the Gentiles, all Gentiles who do not believe will also be "broken off" from the vine

so imo it is not about losing salvation, it is about the fulfillment of the vine and the breaking off of those who do not believe and abide in the true vine. We must be very careful when we try to take a parable and draw deep theology out of an example of what the kingdom is LIKE

just my 2 cents:cool:
Who are the wild olive branches grafted into that vine that Paul speaks of?

ProjectPeter
Jan 12th 2009, 11:39 PM
Do we abide in him? Or does he abide in us?

He does and we do.

John 15:1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it, that it may bear more fruit.
3 "You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it shall be done for you.

Clear enough?

Partaker of Christ
Jan 13th 2009, 01:39 AM
Uh... being separated from Christ isn't being in Christ. Just as you example... if his spirit needs saved on the day of the Lord... what does that say about his spirit then at that moment?

It is his flesh that will be destroyed, not his spirit. His spirit will still be saved.

Though he is not in the Body of Christ, that does not have to mean that Christ is not in him.

I have my father in me.
I live in my fathers home, and he provides all my needs. he protects me, feeds me, cloths me, educates me etc:

I leave home and go my own way. I may even be kicked out.
I still have my father in me, but I no longer have his care and provision etc: I am on my own so to speak.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 13th 2009, 01:52 AM
In a sense... sure he did. He was certainly "saved". Where are you trying to stretch this?

How and when was he saved?

He received life from God, but he did not yet have the life of God in him. If he had the life of God in him, then he would not have sinned.

1John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

The life of Chist in you cannot sin.
When we sin it is because of the old man (flesh)

Partaker of Christ
Jan 13th 2009, 02:11 AM
Who are the wild olive branches grafted into that vine that Paul speaks of?

The meaning behind of being in the Vine, must have a different meaning to being in Christ. For in Christ there is no differentiating.

Since being in Christ:
Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

The vine is earthly, and it about baring fruit.
It is about a Holy Nation, that reflects and represents Christ on earth. The old vine that came out of Egypt failed in its calling.

Sirus
Jan 13th 2009, 02:45 AM
When we sin it is because of the old man (flesh)Old man is dead. A dead man can't sin. When you sin it is the new man sinning not the old. To say the old and new man live together as two natures is gnostic dualism, not Christianity.

ProjectPeter
Jan 13th 2009, 03:50 AM
It is his flesh that will be destroyed, not his spirit. His spirit will still be saved.

Though he is not in the Body of Christ, that does not have to mean that Christ is not in him.

I have my father in me.
I live in my fathers home, and he provides all my needs. he protects me, feeds me, cloths me, educates me etc:

I leave home and go my own way. I may even be kicked out.
I still have my father in me, but I no longer have his care and provision etc: I am on my own so to speak.
If you are on your own... then He ain't with you. You're not making sense.

ProjectPeter
Jan 13th 2009, 03:53 AM
How and when was he saved?

He received life from God, but he did not yet have the life of God in him. If he had the life of God in him, then he would not have sinned.

1John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

The life of Chist in you cannot sin.
When we sin it is because of the old man (flesh)
Yeah... I heard. Jesus in you can't sin so it's the flesh that does it and God can't see the sin because He has blood in His eyes that blinds Him to the fact that we are sinning.

Fact... The one that practices sin isn't of the Father. Don't matter what they "confess" and even "believe." ;)

ProjectPeter
Jan 13th 2009, 03:56 AM
Man... you guys can't even discuss a passage without blowing it off and jumping to a passage that has no relevance to the one being discussed!!!! :lol: Makes for some strange discussion!

Partaker of Christ
Jan 13th 2009, 12:19 PM
Old man is dead. A dead man can't sin. When you sin it is the new man sinning not the old. To say the old and new man live together as two natures is gnostic dualism, not Christianity.

I suppose the old man (flesh) cannot war against the spirit then?

We recon the old man dead

Are you suggesting that the Christ in me, can and does sin?

Veretax
Jan 13th 2009, 01:15 PM
He does and we do.

John 15:1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it, that it may bear more fruit.
3 "You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it shall be done for you.

Clear enough?

The vine is a symbol if Israel which was brought out of Egypt. It is a Natural symbol, and from that nation did many come out. However, many were not circumcised in their hearts, and because of this they bear not fruit, and that is why they are broken off. The dead branches are broken off, that others might produce even more.

humbled
Jan 13th 2009, 02:22 PM
Sin... they escaped the defilement of the world. ;)That's not what we're saved from Ken. We're saved from God's wrath.

You've described what God does with those who belong to Him. He sanctifies HIS SHEEP and delivers THEM from their sin. This is a byproduct of being born again. But first of all, a Christian is saved from God's wrath on the Last Day.

ProjectPeter
Jan 13th 2009, 03:06 PM
That's not what we're saved from Ken. We're saved from God's wrath.

You've described what God does with those who belong to Him. He sanctifies HIS SHEEP and delivers THEM from their sin. This is a byproduct of being born again. But first of all, a Christian is saved from God's wrath on the Last Day.
I see. So Jesus really didn't free us from sin?

humbled
Jan 13th 2009, 03:11 PM
I see. So Jesus really didn't free us from sin?I didn't say that. But we're not SAVED FROM our sin. We're saved from God's wrath in judgment. We're SET FREE from our sin through a knowledge of the truth. This knowledge is given by God (Peter's confession). And that in knowing we no longer have to please God through our performance, for Christ has done so. It is this knowledge of being free from having to please God that enables us to live righteously. God is already pleased with those in Christ, and this action is a work of the Spirit.

It's all of God, my friend. Even our faith. Nothing in my hands I bring ... solely to the cross I cling.

ProjectPeter
Jan 13th 2009, 03:46 PM
I didn't say that. But we're not SAVED FROM our sin. We're saved from God's wrath in judgment. We're SET FREE from our sin through a knowledge of the truth. This knowledge is given by God (Peter's confession). And that in knowing we no longer have to please God through our performance, for Christ has done so. It is this knowledge of being free from having to please God that enables us to live righteously. God is already pleased with those in Christ, and this action is a work of the Spirit.

It's all of God, my friend. Even our faith. Nothing in my hands I bring ... solely to the cross I cling.
Well... why do you think Peter told us to add knowledge to our faith?

Partaker of Christ
Jan 13th 2009, 07:22 PM
Well... why do you think Peter told us to add knowledge to our faith?

2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; [gnosis]
2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge [gnosis] temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

[G1108 gnosis]
Vine: gnosis is knowledge in the abstract.

Wikipedia:
The fathers of early Christianity used the word gnosis to mean spiritual knowledge, in specific knowledge of the divine. This usage to a degree being analogous with the modern usage of the word mysticism. This positive usage was to contrast it with the use of the word by gnostic sectarians.

This use carried over from Hellenic philosophy into Greek Orthodoxy as a critical characteristic of ascetic practices via St Clement of Alexandria, Irenaeus, Hippolytus of Rome, Hegesippus, and Origen. Gnosis here meant intuitive knowledge, spiritual knowledge, heart knowledge (kardiognosis), memory of an experience of God and or the divine.

As such it was emphasized that such knowledge is not secret knowledge but rather a maturing, transcendent form of knowledge derived from contemplation (theoria resulting from practice of hesychasm), since gnosis can not truly be derived from gnosis but rather gnosis can only be derived from theoria.[10] Gnosis thus plays an important role in relation to theosis (deification/personal relationship with God) and theoria (revelation of the divine, vision of God).[11] Gnosis, as the proper use of the noetic faculty plays an important role in Eastern Orthodox theology.
Its importance in the economy of salvation is discussed periodically in the Philokalia where as direct, personal knowledge of God (noesis also see Noema) it is distinguished from ordinary epistemological knowledge (speculative philosophy).

ProjectPeter
Jan 13th 2009, 07:40 PM
2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; [gnosis]
2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge [gnosis] temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

[G1108 gnosis]
Vine: gnosis is knowledge in the abstract.

Wikipedia:
The fathers of early Christianity used the word gnosis to mean spiritual knowledge, in specific knowledge of the divine. This usage to a degree being analogous with the modern usage of the word mysticism. This positive usage was to contrast it with the use of the word by gnostic sectarians.

This use carried over from Hellenic philosophy into Greek Orthodoxy as a critical characteristic of ascetic practices via St Clement of Alexandria, Irenaeus, Hippolytus of Rome, Hegesippus, and Origen. Gnosis here meant intuitive knowledge, spiritual knowledge, heart knowledge (kardiognosis), memory of an experience of God and or the divine.

As such it was emphasized that such knowledge is not secret knowledge but rather a maturing, transcendent form of knowledge derived from contemplation (theoria resulting from practice of hesychasm), since gnosis can not truly be derived from gnosis but rather gnosis can only be derived from theoria.[10] Gnosis thus plays an important role in relation to theosis (deification/personal relationship with God) and theoria (revelation of the divine, vision of God).[11] Gnosis, as the proper use of the noetic faculty plays an important role in Eastern Orthodox theology.
Its importance in the economy of salvation is discussed periodically in the Philokalia where as direct, personal knowledge of God (noesis also see Noema) it is distinguished from ordinary epistemological knowledge (speculative philosophy).
Okay... it is knowledge. Goodness... no need to run to Wiki to understand that... right? Question is still the same.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 13th 2009, 08:28 PM
Okay... it is knowledge. Goodness... no need to run to Wiki to understand that... right? Question is still the same.

Sorry Ken, I forgot you know and understand all things, and we are just the 'you guys'

So, for all us 'you guys' out there, I was just trying to clarify the meaning of 'gnosis'

ProjectPeter
Jan 13th 2009, 08:34 PM
Sorry Ken, I forgot you know and understand all things, and we are just the 'you guys'

So, for all us 'you guys' out there, I was just trying to clarify the meaning of 'gnosis'
You didn't answer the question though... still didn't.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 13th 2009, 10:20 PM
You didn't answer the question though... still didn't.

Sorry Ken.

I was not trying to answer the question, and I still arn't.

Your question was to Humbled, and I was just trying to clarify the question for benefit of us 'you guys'

ProjectPeter
Jan 13th 2009, 11:04 PM
I see. Hard to keep up because "you guys" all look the same. ;)

amazzin
Jan 13th 2009, 11:14 PM
I see. Hard to keep up because "you guys" all look the same. ;)

Hey call me,...need to know what you're wearing tomorrow so we can match again. I love it when "us guys" look the same

humbled
Jan 14th 2009, 12:57 AM
Well... why do you think Peter told us to add knowledge to our faith?Don't change the subject.
Connect this with being saved from God's wrath. I don't see the connection. I do see, however, you making a B-line for works salvation! Be careful not to confuse admonitions with requirements!

ProjectPeter
Jan 14th 2009, 01:09 AM
Don't change the subject.
Connect this with being saved from God's wrath. I don't see the connection. I do see, however, you making a B-line for works salvation! Be careful not to confuse admonitions with requirements!
It isn't changing the subject at all. You said God gives us knowledge... Peter says add knowledge to your faith and virtue... so trying to figure out how you make that work without man having a part in it. Peter also says that whole thing about making that old call and election secure if you increase in those things... sounds like salvation to me eh? ;)

reformedct
Jan 14th 2009, 01:28 AM
It isn't changing the subject at all. You said God gives us knowledge... Peter says add knowledge to your faith and virtue... so trying to figure out how you make that work without man having a part in it. Peter also says that whole thing about making that old call and election secure if you increase in those things... sounds like salvation to me eh? ;)

if i understand what you guys are talking about here, just because it says add knowledge to faith doesnt mean that everytime in the Bible the word knowledge is used that the people with the knowledge are saved. How many Americans raised in church that have knowledge of Jesus or knowledge of the Gospel and do not obey it? Muslims have knowledge of the Jesus of the Bible and the Gospel according to the Bible, they just reject it as false.

I am coming in the middle of the discussion so i may be off all together so i apologize, but it seems like the point being made is that having knowledge means that one has faith? i apologize in advance if i am off

ProjectPeter
Jan 14th 2009, 01:31 AM
if i understand what you guys are talking about here, just because it says add knowledge to faith doesnt mean that everytime in the Bible the word knowledge is used that the people with the knowledge are saved. How many Americans raised in church that have knowledge of Jesus or knowledge of the Gospel and do not obey it? Muslims have knowledge of the Jesus of the Bible and the Gospel according to the Bible, they just reject it as false.

I am coming in the middle of the discussion so i may be off all together so i apologize, but it seems like the point being made is that having knowledge means that one has faith? i apologize in advance if i am off
You can read 2 Peter 1:1-11.... that's what we're speaking of. :)

Sirus
Jan 14th 2009, 01:33 AM
I suppose the old man (flesh) cannot war against the spirit then?

We recon the old man dead

Are you suggesting that the Christ in me, can and does sin?

The old man is more than flesh....

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

The new man is not Christ the new man is you after the image of Christ. They should not be confused nor combined.

ProjectPeter
Jan 14th 2009, 01:35 AM
The old man is more than flesh....

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

The new man is not Christ the new man is you after the image of Christ. They should not be confused nor combined.
Very well put... good post.

reformedct
Jan 14th 2009, 01:39 AM
Very well put... good post.

i just read 2nd Peter 1 but i still have no clue what is being debated here lol

ProjectPeter
Jan 14th 2009, 01:43 AM
i just read 2nd Peter 1 but i still have no clue what is being debated here lol
It's an old one. Humbled comes and goes now and again and when he returns... we seem to always have the same discussion for some strange reason. ;)

reformedct
Jan 14th 2009, 01:49 AM
It's an old one. Humbled comes and goes now and again and when he returns... we seem to always have the same discussion for some strange reason. ;)

Ohh ok. haha in that case i will leave you two to your business

God Bless! Lets all remember to do some works of love today!

Sirus
Jan 14th 2009, 02:02 AM
if you have to remember they are not from love

ProjectPeter
Jan 14th 2009, 02:03 AM
if you have to remember they are not from love
Hmmmm... I could preach that! You don't mind a little plagiarizing do you? :)

Sirus
Jan 14th 2009, 02:04 AM
not at all!!! :D

humbled
Jan 14th 2009, 02:11 AM
It isn't changing the subject at all. You said God gives us knowledge... Peter says add knowledge to your faith and virtue... so trying to figure out how you make that work without man having a part in it. Peter also says that whole thing about making that old call and election secure if you increase in those things... sounds like salvation to me eh? ;)I was speaking about the knowledge of who Christ is. That is given by God. I wasn't speaking indiscriminately about all knowledge. Sheesh man ... a little context goes a long way. Try to stay with me, ok?

Nevertheless, let's get back on track. What are we saved from, I ask? You say SIN. I say that is incorrect. You say 2 Peter . I think your Project needs a little overhaul, Ken.

You are a master at subterfuge, tho. I've got to hand it to you.

Let's break it back down to basics, shall we?

I'm trying to get to the underlying reason as to why eternal insecurity is an unbiblical concept from the get-go. You see ... if we are saved from God's wrath, and someone eventually "gets unsaved" they were never saved to begin with, for if they're eventually not saved from God's wrath, then they simply never were. I think the core reason you are an insecurist is because you don't have a proper understanding of salvation. You've actually proven it in your own words. You believe we're saved from sin. This is not the case. In fact, to base your salvation on your level of sinfulness is to base it on your own performance (some call this "works").

The sanctification of the believer is evidence of their profession of faith. The true believer is sanctified and made into the image of Christ (as Romans 8.29 promises) while the false professor will eventually fall away into unbelief, for the promise does not apply to them.

reformedct
Jan 14th 2009, 02:18 AM
not at all!!! :D

haha ok you guys got me. i was just saying that because i know we can spend a lot of our time on these computers. You are right tho, we dont "remember" to love; we walk in love:hug:

amazzin
Jan 14th 2009, 02:19 AM
As long as you continue to preach your distortion of Paul's gospel, I shall have this discussion with you.

Easy fella!!!

:hmm:

ProjectPeter
Jan 14th 2009, 02:37 AM
I was speaking about the knowledge of who Christ is. That is given by God. I wasn't speaking indiscriminately about all knowledge. Sheesh man ... a little context goes a long way. Try to stay with me, ok?The knowledge of who God is would be given yes. The knowledge of who Christ is... no. If that was the case then blinded or otherwise... folks would know. They don't. The Jews would be an example but even better would be Cornelius. If he knew... then there was no need for Peter to go. I was with you. Just disagreeing with you. ;)




Nevertheless, let's get back on track. What are we saved from, I ask? You say SIN. I say that is incorrect. You say 2 Peter . I think your Project needs a little overhaul, Ken.

You are a master at subterfuge, tho. I've got to hand it to you. I am deceptive because I disagree? Interesting!



Let's break it back down to basics, shall we?

I'm trying to get to the underlying reason as to why eternal insecurity is an unbiblical concept from the get-go.Who mentioned anything about eternal insecurity? I totally believe in biblical eternal security. If you progress in those things then you will never stumble. Your call and election will be very secure.


You see ... if we are saved from God's wrath, and someone eventually "gets unsaved" they were never saved to begin with, for if they're eventually not saved from God's wrath, then they simply never were. I think the core reason you are an insecurist is because you don't have a proper understanding of salvation. You've actually proven it in your own words. You believe we're saved from sin. This is not the case. In fact, to base your salvation on your level of sinfulness is to base it on your own performance (some call this "works").Oh I see... the old "you don't understand salvation" thing! John... what brings about the wrath of God? Is it not sin?

The sanctification of the believer is evidence of their profession of faith. The true believer is sanctified and made into the image of Christ (as Romans 8.29 promises) while the false professor will eventually fall away into unbelief, for the promise does not apply to them.[/quote]

Jemand
Jan 14th 2009, 03:43 AM
Heb. 6:4. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6. and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
7. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8. but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
9. But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. (NASB, 1995)

Up until the 16th century this passage was universally interpreted as teaching that a Christian could lose his salvation, and the large majority of Bible scholars today still hold to that position. Indeed, this passage of Scripture gives us the most detailed description of what it means to be saved that we find anywhere in the Bible, and the end of these saved persons who subsequently fall away from the Christian faith is eternal damnation in the fires of hell. However, the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews wrote his Epistle using the terminology and phraseology of the very early Church. Therefore, in order to accurately interpret the Epistle to the Hebrews it is essential to have a solid background in the writings of the very early Church and the terminology and phraseology that they used.

The phrase in verse 4, “those who have once been enlightened,” is a reference to water baptism. Indeed, Justin Martyr (died in 165 A.D.) wrote that the term “enlightenment” was used as a synonym for water baptism of converts to Christianity and he uses the term “the enlightened one” for a person who has been baptized. And the ancient Pe****a Syriac translation of the Greek New Testament renders the phrase in verse 4, “who have gone down into baptism.”

The phrase in verse 4, “have tasted of the heavenly gift,” was variously interpreted during the first 1500 years, but it was ALWAYS interpreted as describing a born-again Christian. Some, for example, saw it to be a reference to the Eucharist; others saw it to be a reference to the teaching of Christ in John 6:31-58. Still others saw it to be a reference to the forgiveness of sins; others saw it to be a reference to the blessings conferred upon the Christian believer.

The phrase in verse 4, “and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,” is an obvious reference to receiving the Holy Spirit, something that, in the New Testament, happens EXCLUSIVELY to those who have been saved.

The phrase in verse 5, “and have tasted the good word of God,” is a clear reference to the Christian’s experience of hearing the word of God preached and taught and the consequential experience of it in his life as a believer.

The phrase in verse 5, “and the powers of the age to come,” is a reference to the miracles that were performed by the Apostles and other Christians as a foreshadowing of the kingdom to come, and to the other blessings that Christians experience now in part but shall experience in their fullness in the future kingdom.

The phrase in verse 6, “and then have fallen away,” can be properly interpreted only to be speaking of falling from grace and the Christian faith, something that can NOT happen until AFTER a person is saved.

The phrases in verse 6, “it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame,” tell us of the absolutely horrendous consequence of a Christian falling from grace, making the death of Christ on the cross for his sins to be of no effect. This passage expressly speaks of a person who has heard the Gospel, believed it, was saved and baptized, repented of his sins, and enjoyed the blessing of being a born-again Christian—but who subsequently chose to reject Christ and return to his sins. And the fate of such a person could not possibly be any worse—it is “impossible to renew them again to repentance.” Most obviously it is not impossible to renew an unsaved person to repentance if they have repented but not been born again and then fall back into sin. But the born-again Christian who, of his own free will, chooses to reject the Christ who redeemed him, this man or woman is beyond redemption and damned to the fires of hell for eternity.

Verses 7 & 8 are an analogy used to support the author’s statements. Just as the ground which once brought forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled received a blessing from God, and the ground that yields thorns and thistles is worthless and ends up being burned, so the Christian which once brought forth good fruit unto God but who now brings forth bad fruit ends up being burned in the fires of hell.

Verse 9 tells us that the author has been warning his Christian readers about things that do not accompany salvation—things that happen to Christians who fall away from the faith.

humbled
Jan 14th 2009, 04:29 AM
The knowledge of who God is would be given yes. The knowledge of who Christ is... no. If that was the case then blinded or otherwise... folks would know. They don't. The Jews would be an example but even better would be Cornelius. If he knew... then there was no need for Peter to go. I was with you. Just disagreeing with you. ;)You haven't forgotten Peter's confession, have you?

Matthew 16.15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.

Sure looks like the Father revealed to Peter who Christ is.


I am deceptive because I disagree? Interesting! Not deceptive -- distracting and evasive.


Who mentioned anything about eternal insecurity? I totally believe in biblical eternal security. If you progress in those things then you will never stumble. Your call and election will be very secure.By what power do you progress in these things, Ken?

Philippians 2.12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

One who does not progress in sanctification (that's what it is, in all reality) is not being worked on by God.

All Scripture must harmonize.

Oh I see... the old "you don't understand salvation" thing! John... what brings about the wrath of God? Is it not sin?You don't.

What are we saved from, Ken? Biblically? Is it sin?

Matthew 3:7
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

While sin certainly brings about God's wrath, we are not saved from our sin. We are saved from GOD'S WRATH ... for all have sinned and if sin brings about God's wrath, then what's to stop Him from justly doling out His wrath upon us even after Christ's atonement? Grace and mercy.

God wipes away our sin, but we still do it. We will sin in one form or another until the day we die (see 1 John 1.8). Thankfully, because of Christ, we no longer have to fear God's wrath.

This is worth repeating:

The sanctification of the believer is evidence of their profession of faith. The true believer is sanctified and made into the image of Christ (as Romans 8.29 promises) while the false professor will eventually fall away into unbelief, for the promise does not apply to them.

Sirus
Jan 14th 2009, 04:32 AM
Up until the 16th century this passage was universally interpreted as teaching that a Christian could lose his salvation, Yes, well, long before that, the word of God tells me the word of God was corrupted and there were false teachers in the days of the apostles seducing and deceiving the brethren. I'm supposed to care what the leavened church said for 16 centuries?.

reformedct
Jan 14th 2009, 04:40 AM
Heb. 6:4. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6. and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
7. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8. but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
9. But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. (NASB, 1995)



The phrases in verse 6, “it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame,” tell us of the absolutely horrendous consequence of a Christian falling from grace, making the death of Christ on the cross for his sins to be of no effect. This passage expressly speaks of a person who has heard the Gospel, believed it, was saved and baptized, repented of his sins, and enjoyed the blessing of being a born-again Christian—but who subsequently chose to reject Christ and return to his sins. And the fate of such a person could not possibly be any worse—it is “impossible to renew them again to repentance.” Most obviously it is not impossible to renew an unsaved person to repentance if they have repented but not been born again and then fall back into sin. But the born-again Christian who, of his own free will, chooses to reject the Christ who redeemed him, this man or woman is beyond redemption and damned to the fires of hell for eternity.

Verses 7 & 8 are an analogy used to support the author’s statements. Just as the ground which once brought forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled received a blessing from God, and the ground that yields thorns and thistles is worthless and ends up being burned, so the Christian which once brought forth good fruit unto God but who now brings forth bad fruit ends up being burned in the fires of hell.

Verse 9 tells us that the author has been warning his Christian readers about things that do not accompany salvation—things that happen to Christians who fall away from the faith.

Sooo.. according to this logic, if on Thursday, i say, "i renounce my faith in Christ and i no longer believe and i will be a Satanist", and then i commit some sin.

Then on Friday I decide, "you know what, i was wrong to leave Christ, i have fallen away". Then, as i turn to repent back to God, He will say: "it is impossible to renew you to repentance", while the pedophiles, murderers, and liars who havent ever been saved still get a chance?

maybe ive got it wrong but is that what you are saying? Beause it is indeed impossible to renew them to repentance right? So every born again christian in history who have fallen away for one second are forever damned?

maybe ive got it wrong and im not understanding it right so if im wrong please point me out

also in the anlogy in my Bible it talks about a gorund that bares good fruit and a ground that bears no fruit? i did not see a field that once had good fruit but then that fruit disappeared and started making no fruit instead?

Also why are you typing so big and boldly? are you cyber-yelling? please lower your tone so that we can maintain a peaceful atmosphere:P

Jemand
Jan 14th 2009, 04:43 AM
Yes, well, long before that, the word of God tells me the word of God was corrupted and there were false teachers in the days of the apostles seducing and deceiving the brethren. I'm supposed to care what the leavened church said for 16 centuries?.

Are those not rather harsh words for the people whom it pleased God to use to formalize the doctrine of the Trinity and to establish the New Testament Canon?

Sirus
Jan 14th 2009, 04:48 AM
it pleased God? Really?

reformedct
Jan 14th 2009, 04:55 AM
it pleased God? Really?

i also missed that verse

must be in one of the minor prophet books:P


i have noticed on this site that usually people who type really really big and bold should be talked to with caution

Partaker of Christ
Jan 14th 2009, 11:33 AM
The old man is more than flesh....

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

The new man is not Christ the new man is you after the image of Christ. They should not be confused nor combined.

Is it the new man that wars against the Spirit?

These are the works of the flesh; not flesh + affections and lusts.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

ProjectPeter
Jan 14th 2009, 11:48 AM
You haven't forgotten Peter's confession, have you?

Matthew 16.15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.

Sure looks like the Father revealed to Peter who Christ is.He was following Christ at the time and was given that deeper revelation. God ultimately reveals all to us John. No one is denying that fact. Just as I said earlier in this thread... God gives us that measure of faith that we need to believe. I have no problem with that and think it a fact according to Scripture. But that is just the initial faith to believe. Again... the Jews are a perfect example. God revealed Himself to them... and yet they still perished for lack of knowledge.


Not deceptive -- distracting and evasive.Yeah John... that is what I have been. Evasive. More than 20,000 post and I have never really said anything that one can tie down. Amazing though... you sure have no problem disagreeing what with all my evasiveness. :lol:


By what power do you progress in these things, Ken?

Philippians 2.12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

One who does not progress in sanctification (that's what it is, in all reality) is not being worked on by God.

All Scripture must harmonize.
You don't. Um... Sure I do. God is the one that equips us John. Just as God equipped the apostles early on... God equips us now. I've said that and it's been what I have hollered since I've been on here with my 2 Peter 1: 1-11 mantra. You have seen it many times. It's in that passage too so no need to run over to Philippians. That's the beauty of context. ;)


What are we saved from, Ken? Biblically? Is it sin?

Matthew 3:7
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

While sin certainly brings about God's wrath, we are not saved from our sin. We are saved from GOD'S WRATH ... for all have sinned and if sin brings about God's wrath, then what's to stop Him from justly doling out His wrath upon us even after Christ's atonement? Grace and mercy.

God wipes away our sin, but we still do it. We will sin in one form or another until the day we die (see 1 John 1.8). Thankfully, because of Christ, we no longer have to fear God's wrath.

This is worth repeating:Not really worth repeating at all because it's why the church is in much of the sorry state that it is in today and folks can't seem to go a day, with many even an hour, without sinning.

John 1:29 ¶The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

What did John see that many today don't see John?

Jesus didn't die so that man could play him as a trump card while continuing in their sin thus escaping God's wrath because they have the magic Jesus card for judgment day. Unfortunately... that is how it is seen by many.

Understand this John.

Romans 6:5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection,
6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, that our body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin;
7 for he who has died is freed from sin.
8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.
10 For the death that He died, He died to sin, once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 ¶Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body that you should obey its lusts,
13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law, but under grace.

It is not just the penalty of sin John... we have been empowered to actually live in righteousness now and no longer live in sin. Tis the beauty of the passage in Peter. Work towards that goal. You'll never stumble.

shepherdsword
Jan 14th 2009, 12:24 PM
I am glad that the "only" qualification has been cleared up.
it's only fair that our side should have some input into this item.

With that in mind I just want to start from the beginning and look at the foundational verse for most salvation messages


John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

We can clearly see that believing is the qualification. However, what does it mean to believe? Just because I have a pre-conceived notion of what that means doesn't mean that it is acceptable to Jesus.
The grammer in the original greek is good to study for some clarification on how this belief functions.
The greek has certain aspects of tense that are good to look at here.
They can be quite complicated in classical or the "attic" but in koine it is ok to reduce them to two very basic forms.
punctilliar -means it happens at one point in time and that is it.
durative- means that it happens at one point of time and countiniously occurs.
The greek aspect for "pisteuoon" ( or believe in english) is durative and means that you are ALWAYS believing. The scripture is also clear in many places in the new testament that the faith it is speaking up produces abiding fruit. James also says that faith without works is dead just as the body without the spirit is dead. Yes, we are saved by faith and not by works but the faith we have will ALWAYS produce something. I will elaborate more later unless someone else jumps in and completes it.

Is that what you believe the writer of Hebrews is saying?

God promised that He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.


You are pulling that verse out of context.

1 Thess 5:18-24
In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
19 Quench not the Spirit.
20 Despise not prophesyings.
21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good
22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.
23 AND the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

We can see from the above verses that there are some prerequisites to being preserved blameless . Lets look at them in Col. as well:

1 Cor 1:4-9

4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.


We also see the prerequisites in the above passages.
The most critical one being "the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you".

In every verse I have seen eternal securists use(so far) they make a similar error

humbled
Jan 14th 2009, 02:21 PM
it pleased God? Really?Of course it pleased God. He allowed (I would say ordained) it to happen, didn't He?

humbled
Jan 14th 2009, 02:22 PM
He was following Christ at the time and was given that deeper revelation. God ultimately reveals all to us John. No one is denying that fact. Just as I said earlier in this thread... God gives us that measure of faith that we need to believe. I have no problem with that and think it a fact according to Scripture. But that is just the initial faith to believe. Again... the Jews are a perfect example. God revealed Himself to them... and yet they still perished for lack of knowledge.

Yeah John... that is what I have been. Evasive. More than 20,000 post and I have never really said anything that one can tie down. Amazing though... you sure have no problem disagreeing what with all my evasiveness. :lol:

Um... Sure I do. God is the one that equips us John. Just as God equipped the apostles early on... God equips us now. I've said that and it's been what I have hollered since I've been on here with my 2 Peter 1: 1-11 mantra. You have seen it many times. It's in that passage too so no need to run over to Philippians. That's the beauty of context. ;)

Not really worth repeating at all because it's why the church is in much of the sorry state that it is in today and folks can't seem to go a day, with many even an hour, without sinning.

John 1:29 ¶The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

What did John see that many today don't see John?

Jesus didn't die so that man could play him as a trump card while continuing in their sin thus escaping God's wrath because they have the magic Jesus card for judgment day. Unfortunately... that is how it is seen by many.

Understand this John.

Romans 6:5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection,
6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, that our body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin;
7 for he who has died is freed from sin.
8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.
10 For the death that He died, He died to sin, once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 ¶Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body that you should obey its lusts,
13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law, but under grace.

It is not just the penalty of sin John... we have been empowered to actually live in righteousness now and no longer live in sin. Tis the beauty of the passage in Peter. Work towards that goal. You'll never stumble.
By subterfuge, I meant you have dismissed everything I've said so far in this conversation.

You're still doing it.

Have it your way. I still think you don't know what you've been saved from, and you are relying on a litmus test of sinlessness to be your salvation. Trust solely in Christ, Ken.

Yukerboy
Jan 14th 2009, 02:27 PM
You are pulling that verse out of context.

1 Thess 5:18-24
In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
19 Quench not the Spirit.
20 Despise not prophesyings.
21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good
22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.
23 AND the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

We can see from the above verses that there are some prerequisites to being preserved blameless . Lets look at them in Col. as well:

1 Cor 1:4-9

4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.


We also see the prerequisites in the above passages.
The most critical one being "the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you".

In every verse I have seen eternal securists use(so far) they make a similar error

I have never denied the concepts above. However, everyone who is born again will do these. This is God keeping them, giving them the strength to endure to the end.

ProjectPeter
Jan 14th 2009, 02:29 PM
By subterfuge, I meant you have dismissed everything I've said so far in this conversation.

You're still doing it.

Have it your way. I still think you don't know what you've been saved from, and you are relying on a litmus test of sinlessness to be your salvation. Trust solely in Christ, Ken.
Start a thread in chat to ministers John.

shepherdsword
Jan 14th 2009, 02:54 PM
By subterfuge, I meant you have dismissed everything I've said so far in this conversation.

You're still doing it.

Have it your way. I still think you don't know what you've been saved from, and you are relying on a litmus test of sinlessness to be your salvation. Trust solely in Christ, Ken.

The statement above is just the kind of misrepresentation that I have been accused time and time again. It's almost as if these people think we are keeping ourselves with our own power or trusting in our own works to save us. It's sad that they really are clueless to God's purpose in designing a creature that will freely love him of their own free will. It is insulting to the extreme to accuse us of not trusting God alone for salvation. It is just that we realize that God will always honor any decision we make in regards to loving and serving him. They choose to follow the doctrine of a man who was 25 years old when he thought it up!
That's right. Calvin was 25 when he wrote the first revision of "The Institutes of the Christian Religion"


I have never denied the concepts above. However, everyone who is born again will do these. This is God keeping them, giving them the strength to endure to the end.

I agree. God will keep them as long as they freely choose to follow him and be not removed from the hope of the Gospel. The FACT is that no one who is first saved sits down and comes up with a "once saved always saved" doctrine. This is a doctrine of man and not God. You have to be programmed and brainwashed into believing it. I know from experience . I was indoctrinated for my first four years as a christian. Until I grew enough to really let the Holy Spirit lead me through the word and teach me. Then I understood that this position isn't based on an apostolic teaching. It came from man.

Veretax
Jan 14th 2009, 03:01 PM
I agree. God will keep them as long as they freely choose to follow him and be not removed from the hope of the Gospel. The FACT is that no one who is first saved sits down and comes up with a "once saved always saved" doctrine. This is a doctrine of man and not God. You have to be programmed and brainwashed into believing it. I know from experience . I was indoctrinated for my first four years as a christian. Until I grew enough to really let the Holy Spirit lead me through the word and teach me. Then I understood that this position isn't based on an apostolic teaching. It came from man.


I take exception to this point. I believe the bible clearly supports that salvation is secured by faith, and nothing we do after placing that faith in Christ changes that. Our works of the law could not save us before Christ was born, what makes anyone think that anything we do of our own could ever possibly keep us? We only remain because of the Spirit that is within us. (something that I admit is different than how God worked through people in the OT)

Yukerboy
Jan 14th 2009, 03:05 PM
I agree. God will keep them as long as they freely choose to follow him and be not removed from the hope of the Gospel.

God will make those who are born again follow Him. Once they are born again, they can do nothing (even "fall away") without God.


The FACT is that no one who is first saved sits down and comes up with a "once saved always saved" doctrine. This is a doctrine of man and not God. You have to be programmed and brainwashed into believing it.

The FACT is the born again will persevere to the end, or God has failed.

Our God doesn't fail.


I know from experience . I was indoctrinated for my first four years as a christian. Until I grew enough to really let the Holy Spirit lead me through the word and teach me. Then I understood that this position isn't based on an apostolic teaching. It came from man.

I grew up Wesleyan. I read the Bible and saw what the Bible actually said and ignored the teachings of men. Once that is done and dropping all preconceived notions like free will, then you will find the Bible screams of the saints persevering to the end.

grit
Jan 14th 2009, 03:12 PM
‘Woe is me! I am lost, for I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips; yet my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts!’ - Isaiah 6:5, NRSV

:hug:

Partaker of Christ
Jan 14th 2009, 03:12 PM
The statement above is just the kind of misrepresentation that I have been accused time and time again. It's almost as if these people think we are keeping ourselves with our own power or trusting in our own works to save us. It's sad that they really are clueless to God's purpose in designing a creature that will freely love him of their own free will. It is insulting to the extreme to accuse us of not trusting God alone for salvation. It is just that we realize that God will always honor any decision we make in regards to loving and serving him. They choose to follow the doctrine of a man who was 25 years old when he thought it up!
That's right. Calvin was 25 when he wrote the first revision of "The Institutes of the Christian Religion"



I agree. God will keep them as long as they freely choose to follow him and be not removed from the hope of the Gospel. The FACT is that no one who is first saved sits down and comes up with a "once saved always saved" doctrine. This is a doctrine of man and not God. You have to be programmed and brainwashed into believing it. I know from experience . I was indoctrinated for my first four years as a christian. Until I grew enough to really let the Holy Spirit lead me through the word and teach me. Then I understood that this position isn't based on an apostolic teaching. It came from man.

Are you suggesting that those who believe OSAS, have or are not being led by the Holy Spirit?

ProjectPeter
Jan 14th 2009, 03:18 PM
Are you suggesting that those who believe OSAS, have or are not being led by the Holy Spirit?
Um... sort of figure that both sides of the issue would pretty much figure that if they figure they are being led by the Spirit in what it is that they believe. Not sure what would be shocking about that?

reformedct
Jan 14th 2009, 04:05 PM
He was following Christ at the time and was given that deeper revelation. God ultimately reveals all to us John. No one is denying that fact. Just as I said earlier in this thread... God gives us that measure of faith that we need to believe. I have no problem with that and think it a fact according to Scripture. But that is just the initial faith to believe. Again... the Jews are a perfect example. God revealed Himself to them... and yet they still perished for lack of knowledge.

Yeah John... that is what I have been. Evasive. More than 20,000 post and I have never really said anything that one can tie down. Amazing though... you sure have no problem disagreeing what with all my evasiveness. :lol:

Um... Sure I do. God is the one that equips us John. Just as God equipped the apostles early on... God equips us now. I've said that and it's been what I have hollered since I've been on here with my 2 Peter 1: 1-11 mantra. You have seen it many times. It's in that passage too so no need to run over to Philippians. That's the beauty of context. ;)

Not really worth repeating at all because it's why the church is in much of the sorry state that it is in today and folks can't seem to go a day, with many even an hour, without sinning.

John 1:29 ¶The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

What did John see that many today don't see John?

Jesus didn't die so that man could play him as a trump card while continuing in their sin thus escaping God's wrath because they have the magic Jesus card for judgment day. Unfortunately... that is how it is seen by many.

Understand this John.

Romans 6:5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection,
6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, that our body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin;
7 for he who has died is freed from sin.
8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.
10 For the death that He died, He died to sin, once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 ¶Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body that you should obey its lusts,
13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law, but under grace.

It is not just the penalty of sin John... we have been empowered to actually live in righteousness now and no longer live in sin. Tis the beauty of the passage in Peter. Work towards that goal. You'll never stumble.

this is a part that is easiy forgotten. Not only do we recieve forgiveness of sins, but also power to overcome all sin. There is no sin in this life that can master us. very encouraging

reformedct
Jan 14th 2009, 04:12 PM
The statement above is just the kind of misrepresentation that I have been accused time and time again. It's almost as if these people think we are keeping ourselves with our own power or trusting in our own works to save us. It's sad that they really are clueless to God's purpose in designing a creature that will freely love him of their own free will. It is insulting to the extreme to accuse us of not trusting God alone for salvation. It is just that we realize that God will always honor any decision we make in regards to loving and serving him. They choose to follow the doctrine of a man who was 25 years old when he thought it up!
That's right. Calvin was 25 when he wrote the first revision of "The Institutes of the Christian Religion"



I agree. God will keep them as long as they freely choose to follow him and be not removed from the hope of the Gospel. The FACT is that no one who is first saved sits down and comes up with a "once saved always saved" doctrine. This is a doctrine of man and not God. You have to be programmed and brainwashed into believing it. I know from experience . I was indoctrinated for my first four years as a christian. Until I grew enough to really let the Holy Spirit lead me through the word and teach me. Then I understood that this position isn't based on an apostolic teaching. It came from man.

Hello sheperdsword

just out of curiosity, i would like to hear how you relate free will to these passages :


"I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God. I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses...." Ezekiel 36:26-28

The Parson
Jan 14th 2009, 07:13 PM
I'm sort of concerned this thread is about to turn into a total predestination vs. total free will type thingey. Lets be careful to stick to the OP which is Eternal Security! Howbeit, the Calvinistic believer would be a staunch Eternal Security type believer by the very nature of their doctrine. It was fascinating how my own sect of brethren two centuries ago split over this teaching but didn't over the belief that once a soul was purchased, there was no one able to break into God's treasury to steal it much less allow one of His pearls walk away from the treasury.

PP and I got deep into this last Sunday in my office and the arguement / concept over eternity secure over salvation unsecure has it's roots from Genesis to the Revelation and ya'll have only really scratched the surface. So stay with the OP and lets keep this thread open.

shepherdsword
Jan 15th 2009, 12:29 AM
If it is going to be an item where they can propagate that doctrine without any challenge from those who oppose it then it should be closed. I was under the impression that ProjectPeter had already opened it up to all.

Yukerboy
Jan 15th 2009, 12:36 AM
As the OP creator, I have seen the answer(s) to my question and would not argue against this being closed.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 15th 2009, 12:43 AM
Um... sort of figure that both sides of the issue would pretty much figure that if they figure they are being led by the Spirit in what it is that they believe. Not sure what would be shocking about that?

And as a mod, you are ok with that suggestion being voiced in these forums?

ProjectPeter
Jan 15th 2009, 02:26 AM
And as a mod, you are ok with that suggestion being voiced in these forums?
I am not a moderator any longer... remember? That's up to them although if someone wants to read something into what someone said or implied... they are likely going to come up with most anything. Certainly I would think someone that argues a point of Scripture tooth and nail would certainly be mature in Christ enough to not take offense at something like that... perhaps that's just wishful thinking I suppose but one would think anyway.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 15th 2009, 03:02 PM
I am not a moderator any longer... remember? That's up to them although if someone wants to read something into what someone said or implied... they are likely going to come up with most anything. Certainly I would think someone that argues a point of Scripture tooth and nail would certainly be mature in Christ enough to not take offense at something like that... perhaps that's just wishful thinking I suppose but one would think anyway.

It is about discussing the scripture not the person.

When someone says that they have been led by the Holy Spirit, preceeded by "You have to be programmed and brainwashed into believing it." that is against the persons. That is not reading 'into' something.

ProjectPeter
Jan 15th 2009, 03:04 PM
It is about discussing the scripture not the person.

When someone says that they have been led by the Holy Spirit, preceeded by "You have to be programmed and brainwashed into believing it." that is against the persons. That is not reading 'into' something.
Best I can tell you... if it makes you feel bad and you think it wrong then report the post and let the mod's deal with it. That's how it works and why that report post function is there on every post.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 15th 2009, 03:15 PM
Best I can tell you... if it makes you feel bad and you think it wrong then report the post and let the mod's deal with it. That's how it works and why that report post function is there on every post.

But I don't feel bad about it. My concern is that others may have been or may become offended.

I was merely questioning his inference. I would ask the person himself, rather then go running of to the mods.

I have been a Christian for 46 years. I don't get easily offended, but that does not mean I don't challenge what is said.

ProjectPeter
Jan 15th 2009, 06:50 PM
But I don't feel bad about it. My concern is that others may have been or may become offended.

I was merely questioning his inference. I would ask the person himself, rather then go running of to the mods.

I have been a Christian for 46 years. I don't get easily offended, but that does not mean I don't challenge what is said.
So far... you have been the only one that has complained and is still complaining... use the report post function. ;)

Partaker of Christ
Jan 15th 2009, 09:54 PM
So far... you have been the only one that has complained and is still complaining... use the report post function. ;)

There you go again Ken, misunderstanding what is written.

Well, if it helps you to get a better understanding, I did not complain. I simply asked a question.

Anyway, when do you plan to start your Project?;)