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Sandusky
Jan 6th 2009, 11:37 PM
In another thread a topic came up about the appropriateness of a youth pastor ordering a beer in public. Some of the discussion that resulted was very interesting, but then the thread was closed. I'm not sure if it was because it was in the wrong sub-forum, or what...but I'd like to re-open the discussion here.

A few people were expressing their view that pastors should not drink at all and that this is supported by Scripture. I was wondering, to those of you who believe this: what exactly is the rationale for this view, and where in scripture is abstience from alcohol commanded for pastors, ministers, et al.

Thanks in advance for your replies! :)

tango
Jan 6th 2009, 11:42 PM
There are lots of reasons why people may choose not to drink alcohol, ranging from a simple matter of not liking the taste or not liking the effect it has on them, to having experienced the devastation that alcoholism can bring to a family.

However, the Bible does not state that we are to abstain from drinking. Drinking is one of many things where the Bible does not explicitly state that we must drink, nor does it state that we must not. In the absence of compulsion or prohibition we are therefore free to decide for ourselves.

We are not to get drunk (Eph 5:18) and obviously if alcohol becomes more important to us than God then we have a major problem, but the same applies to anything else we might have in our lives.

student of the Lamb
Jan 7th 2009, 12:56 AM
Timothy 3 gives us the directions in life for Overseers (church leaders, pastors, ministers, etc.) and Deacons. Timothy 3:1) Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer, he desires a noble task. 2)Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3) not given to drunkeness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.

7)He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap.

Would a man of God be presenting an image of a man above reproach if he were seen having any form of alcoholic drink? Does this open the door for others to feel that it is OK to drink alcohol. Many people can handle it, then again many can't. How would a pastor feel if he found out at some time that someone began drinking alcohol and became an alcoholic because they saw him and figured it was alright. This is where verse number seven comes in.
"will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap."

He may be self controlled but do others really know how much he drinks and how often? He may not be given to drunkness but does this really give the appearance of a man above repraoch who is trying to present a proper image to his flock and to outsiders as well. Can you imagine how outsiders, who do look to find fault with Christ-followers, would play this up? "Man, I saw that pastor last weekend out drinking up a storm." Yeah, he only had one drink but just what/how much did his image in the community suffer? Will he be able to reach others in the community as well as he might have if he had never had that one drink? Also, the chances are that if a pastor just has a drink now and then in private, he might just slip up to temptation and have one in public; and drinking alone can really lead to problems as well.

Just as Joseph ran from Potipher's wife when she tried to seduce him any one that is tempted to do that which could at some time become sinful, they should run away. They are flirting with sin and the devil.

tango
Jan 7th 2009, 09:05 AM
The trouble with this approach is that we allow Satan to take control of God's gifts to us. Due to our own weaknesses and Satan's corruptions we end up having issues with what God has given us - where God gives us wine, Satan gives us drunkenness and addictions. Where God gives us love and sex, Satan gives us lust, porn, prostitution etc. Where God gives us food, Satan gives us gluttony. And so on.

There are so many things that can damage us, but we must be certain to keep control of things for ourselves and not simply hand them over as soon as they are tarnished by the enemy. Drinking can lead to problems, but that doesn't mean it has to lead to problems. If someone chooses not to drink because they can't stop at just one or two, it is probably better for them not to drink at all. If someone is a recovering alcoholic, it's almost certainly best for them to stay away from it completely.

When I had my pastor and his wife around for dinner I served wine with the meal, and he brought a bottle as a contribution (this is customary in the UK). Had I been struggling with alcoholism and he had come to pray for me, and he had brought a six-pack of beer, that would clearly be inappropriate.

In your example, if the pastor "slips up" and has a drink in public, so what? Jesus himself was accused of being a glutton and winebibber (Luk 7:34)

student of the Lamb
Jan 7th 2009, 02:45 PM
In your example, if the pastor "slips up" and has a drink in public, so what? Jesus himself was accused of being a glutton and winebibber (Luk 7:34)

First of all you state that Christ was ACCUSED of being a glutton. Secondly wine was a regular part of life. Not all well water was good. At the wedding where he changed water into wine they said that usually they lessor wine is brough out first but you have brought out the good wine first. Wine seems to have been always readily available. Those days are not these days and we should not compare them. There may have been alcoholics in those days but wine was generally drank at most meals and it was up to individuals to watch how much they drank. I do recall ever seeing anything in the Bible that said that Jesus was a glutton or that he ever over drank of the wine.

monergist
Jan 7th 2009, 02:54 PM
There is no sin in having a beer. As soon as someone shows me a scripture that says I should never drink alcohol, I will ignore any claims that I must as they are not founded on scripture but the traditions and fears of certain people.

The argument about "wine being a part of life" is moot. So, a pastor in Germany can drink beer and a pastor in France can drink wine because it's "a part of life", but an American pastor can't? God's law is not subject to man's tradition, as Jesus made plain to the Pharisees.

Slug1
Jan 7th 2009, 02:55 PM
I do recall ever seeing anything in the Bible that said that Jesus was a glutton or that he ever over drank of the wine.The scripture that Tango reffed shows us that Jesus admitted He drank alcoholic wine. Otherwise He'd not have to say that He's being accused of being a drunkard/winebidder. Not only does this show us that He consumed alcohol but that this was public knowledge. So He either drank in public or admitted He drank to the public.

tango
Jan 7th 2009, 03:12 PM
First of all you state that Christ was ACCUSED of being a glutton. Secondly wine was a regular part of life. Not all well water was good. At the wedding where he changed water into wine they said that usually they lessor wine is brough out first but you have brought out the good wine first. Wine seems to have been always readily available. Those days are not these days and we should not compare them. There may have been alcoholics in those days but wine was generally drank at most meals and it was up to individuals to watch how much they drank. I do recall ever seeing anything in the Bible that said that Jesus was a glutton or that he ever over drank of the wine.

So you're saying wine wasn't sinful then but has mysteriously become sinful now? How does a chemical compound CH3CH2OH make a transition from being lawful to being sinful?

In many cultures wine is still readily available. It is commonplace in the UK to drink wine with a meal and, when visiting someone for dinner, it is customary to take a bottle of wine as a gift to the host/ess.

The verse I referenced clearly said this (emphasis mine):
Luk 7:34 The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, 'Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!'

Had Jesus not been drinking alcohol it would have been absurd for people to say he was a winebibber. If Jesus was drinking alcohol we have to either accept that drinking alcohol is not sinful, or that Jesus was a sinner.

Nobody is saying that drinking alcohol is mandatory, but there is no Scriptural support whatsoever for a blanket ban on it either.

godsgirl
Jan 7th 2009, 03:45 PM
Since when would people ever lie about Jesus? Couldn't happen.

If you are a Christian who drinks alcohol, you must consider your motives carefully.

Based on a thorough examination of the Greek texts, the author of Wine in the Bible: A Biblical Study on the Use of Alcoholic Beverages http://www.layhands.com/zOffsiteLink.jpg (http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/wine_in_the_bible/1.html) provides interesting evidence that Jesus and the apostles never drank alcoholic wine, nor did they ever approve of alcohol in any form. This would mean that Christians have no Scriptural support for drinking any alcoholic drinks, even in moderation.

TrustingFollower
Jan 7th 2009, 03:57 PM
Since when would people ever lie about Jesus? Couldn't happen.

If you are a Christian who drinks alcohol, you must consider your motives carefully.

Based on a thorough examination of the Greek texts, the author of Wine in the Bible: A Biblical Study on the Use of Alcoholic Beverages http://www.layhands.com/zOffsiteLink.jpg (http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/wine_in_the_bible/1.html) provides interesting evidence that Jesus and the apostles never drank alcoholic wine, nor did they ever approve of alcohol in any form. This would mean that Christians have no Scriptural support for drinking any alcoholic drinks, even in moderation.
Simply not supported by the scriptures. If you are going to continue to use this stance then show me yourself with the scriptures that it is sin to drink alcohol. It's not in the scriptures so to continue to post it is, all that is doing is denying the word of God on the matter.

monergist
Jan 7th 2009, 04:25 PM
Since when would people ever lie about Jesus? Couldn't happen.

All you need to do is watch tv or go on the internet for a day and you'll see that Jesus is probably the most lied about person in history.

godsgirl
Jan 7th 2009, 04:28 PM
I am of the opinion that the Bible speaks of two different kinds of wine-one good-nonfirmented and one bad-firmented.

In scripture wine in English, vinum in Latin, oinos in Greek and yayin in Hebrew—have been used to refer to the juice of the grape, whether fermented or unfermented. This finding discredits the claim that the Bible knows only fermented wine, which it approves when used moderately. The truth of the matter is that the Bible knows both fermented wine, which it disapproves, and unfermented grape juice, which it approves.

I still have not had anyone truthfully answer the question of the motives of drinking?

godsgirl
Jan 7th 2009, 04:30 PM
All you need to do is watch tv or go on the internet for a day and you'll see that Jesus is probably the most lied about person in history.


Exactly!! Which is why I do not think it 'absurd" at all for his detracters to call him a "winebibber"

HisLeast
Jan 7th 2009, 04:32 PM
In scripture wine in English, vinum in Latin, oinos in Greek and yayin in Hebrew—have been used to refer to the juice of the grape, whether fermented or unfermented. This finding discredits the claim that the Bible knows only fermented wine, which it approves when used moderately. The truth of the matter is that the Bible knows both fermented wine, which it disapproves, and unfermented grape juice, which it approves.

Does the Bible discuss how grapejuice was prevented from becoming wine without refrigeration or pasteurization?

godsgirl
Jan 7th 2009, 04:45 PM
Does the Bible discuss how grapejuice was prevented from becoming wine without refrigeration or pasteurization?

Other writings from those times do--look into the writings of Josephus Columella and Pliny-all have given us insight.

tango
Jan 7th 2009, 04:49 PM
Since when would people ever lie about Jesus? Couldn't happen.

If you are a Christian who drinks alcohol, you must consider your motives carefully.

Based on a thorough examination of the Greek texts, the author of Wine in the Bible: A Biblical Study on the Use of Alcoholic Beverages http://www.layhands.com/zOffsiteLink.jpg (http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/wine_in_the_bible/1.html) provides interesting evidence that Jesus and the apostles never drank alcoholic wine, nor did they ever approve of alcohol in any form. This would mean that Christians have no Scriptural support for drinking any alcoholic drinks, even in moderation.

OK, since Jesus and the apostles are never recorded eating peanut butter or approving of the eating of peanut butter in any form, does that mean there is no Scriptural support for eating peanut butter? Ditto driving cars, using the internet, and so on.

Even without arguing your points above, the fact that the Bible doesn't explicitly say something is permitted does not mean it is prohibited. I am thankful for freedom to do anything that is not prohibited by the Bible, and drinking alcohol in moderation is not prohibited.

Bethany67
Jan 7th 2009, 04:58 PM
Drinking in moderation isn't prohibited. I have liberty to drink, but more often than not I choose not to; I don't need it and don't particularly like the taste in most cases. I especially choose not to drink around an unsaved friend who's a binge-drinker. I might have the odd half-glass of wine or a cider or a beer; no spirits. I will not judge those fellow Christians who have an occasional civilized drink, as long as they've thought through the context and are not causing someone else to stumble.

godsgirl
Jan 7th 2009, 05:13 PM
OK, since Jesus and the apostles are never recorded eating peanut butter or approving of the eating of peanut butter in any form, does that mean there is no Scriptural support for eating peanut butter? Ditto driving cars, using the internet, and so on.

Even without arguing your points above, the fact that the Bible doesn't explicitly say something is permitted does not mean it is prohibited. I am thankful for freedom to do anything that is not prohibited by the Bible, and drinking alcohol in moderation is not prohibited.

I'm just asking you to consider your motives. You may say you have "freedom to do anything that is not prohibited by the Bible". I disagree.


Wine is a mocker, strong drink is a brawler, and whoever is led astray by it is not wise."

HisLeast
Jan 7th 2009, 05:15 PM
Wine is a mocker, strong drink is a brawler, and whoever is led astray by it is not wise."

And for those who are not led astray bit it?

student of the Lamb
Jan 7th 2009, 05:15 PM
Timothy 3 gives us the directions in life for Overseers (church leaders, pastors, ministers, etc.) and Deacons. Timothy 3:1) Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer, he desires a noble task. 2)Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3) not given to drunkeness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.

7)He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap.


Would a man of God be presenting an image of a man above reproach if he were seen having any form of alcoholic drink? Does this open the door for others to feel that it is OK to drink alcohol. Many people can handle it, then again many can't. How would a pastor feel if he found out at some time that someone began drinking alcohol and became an alcoholic because they saw him and figured it was alright. This is where verse number seven comes in.
"will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap."

He may be self controlled but do others really know how much he drinks and how often? He may not be given to drunkness but does this really give the appearance of a man above repraoch who is trying to present a proper image to his flock and to outsiders as well. Can you imagine how outsiders, who do look to find fault with Christ-followers, would play this up? "Man, I saw that pastor last weekend out drinking up a storm." Yeah, he only had one drink but just what/how much did his image in the community suffer? Will he be able to reach others in the community as well as he might have if he had never had that one drink? Also, the chances are that if a pastor just has a drink now and then in private, he might just slip up to temptation and have one in public; and drinking alone can really lead to problems as well.

Just as Joseph ran from Potipher's wife when she tried to seduce him any one that is tempted to do that which could at some time become sinful, they should run away. They are flirting with sin and the devil.

I believe this thread is entitled "Pastors and drinking alcohol." I do not believe that you will find in anything that I have posted where it says that I have said that Pastors should not drink. I have stated as the Scriptures have that it would be wiser if they did not drink alcohol. No where in this is there anymention of wine, only the wide open category of alcohol. There are many that feel that wine is not included. I will not argue that point. Most people do not sit down and get drunk on wine these days. If they want to drink to get drunk they find faster ways.

My comments in the second post were in regard to the post before it are it was not relational to the first.

I think that the point is that we need to consider when we put "me" before God.

godsgirl
Jan 7th 2009, 05:17 PM
And for those who are not led astray bit it?


Do you think people who are led astray by it set out to give place to the devil? Jesus said that we can know a tree by the fruit it bears. A good tree brings forth good fruit and a bad tree bad. What is the fruit of the breweries, the distilleries, the state stores, pubs and bars? It is violence in the home, violence in our neighborhoods, violence on our roads; 2,016,000 million adult offenders in prison, jail ... on parole or probation in 1996 "who had been drinking at the time of the offense for which they were convicted."

Can any good thing come from imbibing alcohol? Perhaps. But the dangers of drink are so great and the warning of scripture so clear, why take the risk? No one, in all of you who are insistent that you can handle drinking has given me one good reason to.

The conclusion, when all has been heard is, "Do not look on the wine when it is red, when it sparkles in the cup, when it swirls around smoothly; at the last it bites like a serpent, and stings like a viper" (Proverbs 23:31-32).

Wine is a mocker----As you gulp it, it’s constantly mocking you.

HisLeast
Jan 7th 2009, 05:30 PM
Can any good thing come from imbibing alcohol? Perhaps. But the dangers of drink are so great and the warning of scripture so clear, why take the risk? No one, in all of you who are insistent that you can handle drinking has given me one good reason to.

Consumption of it is either a sin or its not. If its not, I needn't justify my consumption of it to you no matter how passionate your stance.

Slug1
Jan 7th 2009, 05:33 PM
Nor would Jesus if someone actually confronted Him these days as they did back on the day He was accused of being a drunkard. He stated the fact as He did and drove on with His ministry cause He was sinless in His responsible consumption. Just as any Christian today would be if they drink responsibly as Jesus did.

Brother Mark
Jan 7th 2009, 05:42 PM
Can any good thing come from imbibing alcohol? Perhaps. But the dangers of drink are so great and the warning of scripture so clear, why take the risk? No one, in all of you who are insistent that you can handle drinking has given me one good reason to.

Jesus drank and turned water into wine. It's throughout the scriptures. When we go around and teach that one should abstain from wine, we teach something in addition to scripture and that is something Jesus preached against very, very hard.

The world already has a wrong view of God. When we re-enforce those views through forbidding something God himself has not forbidden, we do no one a good service.

Yankee Candle
Jan 7th 2009, 05:45 PM
Consumption of it is either a sin or its not. If its not, I needn't justify my consumption of it to you no matter how passionate your stance.

The drinking of wine (called by Jesus 'the fruit of the vine') only becomes prohibitive after it has become intoxicating.

Defintion: intoxicaton -
To stupefy or excite, as by the action of a chemical substance such as alcohol. 2. To stimulate or excite: "a man whom life intoxicates, who has no need of wine" (Anaïs Nin). 3. To poison. (American Heritage Dictionary)

To drink wine after it has reached this state is to not only do ourselves harm (it's poison, by definition) but it can lead us to place a stumblingblock in front of our Christian brother or sister who is tempted by such beverages...and doubly so with those who are struggling to be free of an addiction.

"Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright." Proverbs 23:31

This verse tells us plainly that wine, when it has become fermented(intoxicating) should be avoided. When it is simply the 'fruit of the vine' then God invites us to enjoy it all we wish.

godsgirl
Jan 7th 2009, 05:57 PM
Exactly Yankee--

"Did Jesus turn water into wine?" Yes. At the marriage feast in Cana of Galilee recorded in John 2:1-11, Jesus turned water into wine. However, this question does not usually ask what is meant by it. What is usually meant is "Did Jesus make intoxicating wine?" And the answer is no.

Slug1
Jan 7th 2009, 06:02 PM
The drinking of wine (called by Jesus 'the fruit of the vine') only becomes prohibitive after it has become intoxicating.

Defintion: intoxicaton -
To stupefy or excite, as by the action of a chemical substance such as alcohol. 2. To stimulate or excite: "a man whom life intoxicates, who has no need of wine" (Anaïs Nin). 3. To poison. (American Heritage Dictionary)

To drink wine after it has reached this state is to not only do ourselves harm (it's poison, by definition) but it can lead us to place a stumblingblock in front of our Christian brother or sister who is tempted by such beverages...and doubly so with those who are struggling to be free of an addiction.

"Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright." Proverbs 23:31

This verse tells us plainly that wine, when it has become fermented(intoxicating) should be avoided. When it is simply the 'fruit of the vine' then God invites us to enjoy it all we wish.Ummm, so them what type did Jesus drink to be accused of being a drunkard? I know for a fact that anyone who drank the nonfirmented type wouldn't be called a drunkard. So that leaves the other type that He drank.

tango
Jan 7th 2009, 06:05 PM
I'm just asking you to consider your motives. You may say you have "freedom to do anything that is not prohibited by the Bible". I disagree.

So what other things not prohibited by the Bible would you like to arbitrarily prohibit?



Wine is a mocker, strong drink is a brawler, and whoever is led astray by it is not wise."
And those who are not led astray by it? How is drinking in moderation being led astray by anything? The whole point of moderation is that you stop before wine becomes a mocker, and before strong drink becomes a brawler.

TrustingFollower
Jan 7th 2009, 07:17 PM
Exactly Yankee--

"Did Jesus turn water into wine?" Yes. At the marriage feast in Cana of Galilee recorded in John 2:1-11, Jesus turned water into wine. However, this question does not usually ask what is meant by it. What is usually meant is "Did Jesus make intoxicating wine?" And the answer is no.


John 2

10 and said to him, "Every man serves the good wine first, and when the people have drunk freely, then he serves the poorer wine; but you have kept the good wine until now."

This makes it clear that it was in deed alcohol bearing wine. The guests at the wedding were getting drunk as the custom of the day was for a wedding feast. When the guests get drunk and don't notice the quality of the wine that is when the cheap stuff is served.

Bethany67
Jan 7th 2009, 07:20 PM
That's good exegesis, TF.

TrustingFollower
Jan 7th 2009, 07:21 PM
Now as for the OP question. I believe the bible says that pastors can drink just not be an addict i.e. and alcoholic.

1 Timothy 3

2 An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
3 not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money.

Titus 1

5 ¶For this reason I left you in Crete, that you would set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city as I directed you,
6 namely, if any man is above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion.
7 For the overseer must be above reproach as God's steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious, not fond of sordid gain,

Emanate
Jan 7th 2009, 07:21 PM
And those who are not led astray by it? How is drinking in moderation being led astray by anything? The whole point of moderation is that you stop before wine becomes a mocker, and before strong drink becomes a brawler.


And let us not forget one of the oft quoted use of the biblical tithe - to buy strong drink and feast before YHWH (Deut. 14:26). If God had a problem with alcohol, I wonder why he cited using the tithe on strong drink. The only prohibition I can find in scripure is to those under the Nazirite vow.

Slug1
Jan 7th 2009, 07:26 PM
The only prohibition I can find in scripure is to those under the Nazirite vow.Two specific people told not to drink alcohol were the mother of Samson while she was with child (Samson) and John the Baptist.

shepherdsword
Jan 7th 2009, 07:36 PM
I think it is pretty much well documented that a small amount of alcohol was acceptable in the new testament era. The fact that Jesus was accused of being a glutton and a "wine bibber" alludes to the fact that the wine they were consuming WAS fermented . I don't have a problem with a christian who consumes a small amount of wine or beer in their own home but a leader of the church doing it in public can be a stumbling block to many people. I think it ill advised. I have sacrificed my right to consume beer or wine to the Lord because I have struggled with drug addiction and alcoholism in the past. I think it wise for anyone with a similar background to totally abstain from it.

Emanate
Jan 7th 2009, 07:47 PM
Two specific people told not to drink alcohol were the mother of Samson while she was with child (Samson) and John the Baptist.


We know that Samson was under the Nazirite vow. If John looked anything like he does in the movies, then I would suspect he was also.:rofl:

Yankee Candle
Jan 7th 2009, 07:48 PM
Ummm, so them what type did Jesus drink to be accused of being a drunkard? I know for a fact that anyone who drank the nonfirmented type wouldn't be called a drunkard. So that leaves the other type that He drank.

Answer: How could they tell by merely viewing the matter that what He was drinking was fermented or not fermented? They believed what they wanted to believe...just like Christians who justify drinking intoxicating beverages do with the sciptures in our day.

They also accused John the Baptist of having devils...because he didn't eat bread and drink wine! What that true?

Question: If the Lord Jesus enjoined his disciples to partake of the Lord's supper with unleavened bread (leaven being the symbol of corruption) then how could He be consistent if He told them to partake of intoxicating wine in the same supper? But if one thinks it through clearly then his use of the words 'fruit of the vine' instead of 'wine' for that particular event makes perfect sense. The 'fruit of the vine' usage speaks of unfermented juice, freshly squeezed from grapes.

"For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come." Luke 22:18.

No, the Lord would never command something to be done that would in any way enflame the tastes of ex-drunkards or anyone who had a problem with intoxicating beverages. Such a position makes no sense at all.

Emanate
Jan 7th 2009, 07:55 PM
Question: If the Lord Jesus enjoined his disciples to partake of the Lord's supper with unleavened bread (leaven being the symbol of corruption) then how could He be consistent if He told them to partake of intoxicating wine in the same supper? But if one thinks it through clearly then his use of the words 'fruit of the vine' instead of 'wine' for that particular event makes perfect sense. The 'fruit of the vine' usage speaks of unfermented juice, freshly squeezed from grapes.

Uh, wine has no leavening unless it is added. You can go to your local liquor store and find various wines that are 'kosher for passover', and this is not a new thing. There is an ancient prayer in Judaism that thanks God for 'fruit of the vine' and is generally in reference to intoxicating wine. In fact, this prayer predates the time of Messiah. So the argument that 'fruit of the vine' referes to unfermented juice is null and void.

Emanate
Jan 7th 2009, 07:57 PM
No, the Lord would never command something to be done that would in any way enflame the tastes of ex-drunkards or anyone who had a problem with intoxicating beverages. Such a position makes no sense at all.


Who said anything about a command?

TrustingFollower
Jan 7th 2009, 08:03 PM
Answer: How could they tell by merely viewing the matter that what He was drinking was fermented or not fermented? They believed what they wanted to believe...just like Christians who justify drinking intoxicating beverages do with the sciptures in our day.

They also accused John the Baptist of having devils...because he didn't eat bread and drink wine! What that true?

Question: If the Lord Jesus enjoined his disciples to partake of the Lord's supper with unleavened bread (leaven being the symbol of corruption) then how could He be consistent if He told them to partake of intoxicating wine in the same supper? But if one thinks it through clearly then his use of the words 'fruit of the vine' instead of 'wine' for that particular event makes perfect sense. The 'fruit of the vine' usage speaks of unfermented juice, freshly squeezed from grapes.

"For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come." Luke 22:18.

No, the Lord would never command something to be done that would in any way enflame the tastes of ex-drunkards or anyone who had a problem with intoxicating beverages. Such a position makes no sense at all.
Matthew 9

17 "Nor do people put new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the wineskins burst, and the wine pours out and the wineskins are ruined; but they put new wine into fresh wineskins, and both are preserved."

Here we see that in the day Jesus did in deed understand wine to be of the fermented kind. When the wine ferments it produces gas and expands the wine skins. Thus the need for new wine skins that are not dried out and are able to stretch.

godsgirl
Jan 7th 2009, 08:24 PM
John 2

10 and said to him, "Every man serves the good wine first, and when the people have drunk freely, then he serves the poorer wine; but you have kept the good wine until now."

This makes it clear that it was in deed alcohol bearing wine. The guests at the wedding were getting drunk as the custom of the day was for a wedding feast. When the guests get drunk and don't notice the quality of the wine that is when the cheap stuff is served.


The wine Christ made was of high quality, not because of its alcohol content, but because, as Henry Morris explains, it was "new wine, freshly created! It was not old, decayed wine, as it would have to be if it were intoxicating. There was no time for the fermentation process to break down the structure of its energy-giving sugars into disintegrative alcohols. It thus was a fitting representation of His glory and was appropriate to serve as the very first of His great miracles (John 2:11)."15

HisLeast
Jan 7th 2009, 08:39 PM
The wine Christ made was of high quality, not because of its alcohol content, but because, as Henry Morris explains, it was "new wine, freshly created! It was not old, decayed wine, as it would have to be if it were intoxicating. There was no time for the fermentation process to break down the structure of its energy-giving sugars into disintegrative alcohols. It thus was a fitting representation of His glory and was appropriate to serve as the very first of His great miracles (John 2:11)."15

The people weren't marveling over the newness, they were marveling over its goodness. The text doesn't say "new". And I think its a much bigger miracle that he changed water into wine than it is the wine was unfermented.

godsgirl
Jan 7th 2009, 08:44 PM
Yes we are free in Christ but should always live by being above reproach and not being a stumbling blocks to others. Alcohol has many negative images in our culture.
I still haven't heard one person give a good reason for drinking. Examine your heart and explain to us why drinking is so important to you.

HisLeast
Jan 7th 2009, 08:45 PM
Yes we are free in Christ but should always live by being above reproach and not being a stumbling blocks to others. Alcohol has many negative images in our culture.
I still haven't heard one person give a good reason for drinking. Examine your heart and explain to us why drinking is so important to you.

I haven't heard you explain why the internet is so important to you? How can you tolerate participating in the world's most effective proliferator of child pornography?

TrustingFollower
Jan 7th 2009, 08:49 PM
To further expound on this a bit. The following scripture would say it would be OK for me to have a pork chop sandwich and a beer for supper if I were to choose to.

Colossians 2

16 ¶Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day --

Now with respect to those that it would be a sin to them to have a meal like this. Then I would certainly never partake in such a meal in their presence. As by my actions it may cause them to stumble, but for me it is not sin and is allowable for me apart from that brother or sister.

tango
Jan 7th 2009, 09:10 PM
Question: If the Lord Jesus enjoined his disciples to partake of the Lord's supper with unleavened bread (leaven being the symbol of corruption) then how could He be consistent if He told them to partake of intoxicating wine in the same supper? But if one thinks it through clearly then his use of the words 'fruit of the vine' instead of 'wine' for that particular event makes perfect sense. The 'fruit of the vine' usage speaks of unfermented juice, freshly squeezed from grapes.

The trouble with your question is that you are assuming that alcohol is sinful, and coming at this from a perspective of "alcohol is sinful, Jesus never sinned, therefore Jesus never consumed alcohol".

If you take away your assumptions in the first place then you don't need to fit everything into a preconceived conclusion. If you choose not to drink alcohol for whatever reason that is your right. It is not your right to impose your personal views of alcohol on anybody else.

The Bible is very clear on many things. "Thou shalt not steal", for example. If drinking alcohol was such a big deal there would be a verse in there that says "Thou shalt not consume alcohol".



Yes we are free in Christ but should always live by being above reproach and not being a stumbling blocks to others. Alcohol has many negative images in our culture.
I still haven't heard one person give a good reason for drinking. Examine your heart and explain to us why drinking is so important to you.

I drink beer because I like the taste of it. If I didn't like the taste I wouldn't drink it. Some beers taste foul to me, so I don't drink those. I drink good wine and other drinks for the same reason.

kenrank
Jan 7th 2009, 09:35 PM
There are lots of reasons why people may choose not to drink alcohol, ranging from a simple matter of not liking the taste or not liking the effect it has on them, to having experienced the devastation that alcoholism can bring to a family.

However, the Bible does not state that we are to abstain from drinking. Drinking is one of many things where the Bible does not explicitly state that we must drink, nor does it state that we must not. In the absence of compulsion or prohibition we are therefore free to decide for ourselves.

We are not to get drunk (Eph 5:18) and obviously if alcohol becomes more important to us than God then we have a major problem, but the same applies to anything else we might have in our lives.

I think I will stay clear of this topic, my 2 cents aren't worth anything. It can't be said any better than Tango did.

Peace.
Ken

militarywife
Jan 7th 2009, 09:44 PM
We are ALL called to serve the Lord. God called me in the midst of beer drinking.
What would be the sense of God calling only people who are "ok enough" to be His servant? WHO is ok enough to be his servant?
A youth pastor who ordered a beer in public is truly the least of The Churchs burdens.
Oh I am probably going to catch some flack for this one, but, when we post questions such as WHAT DO YOU THINK about this or that...or this person or that person...we are judging. THAT is a concern we all might want to be addressing rather than WHO is ordering a beer at the local steakhouse.
JMO

Brother Mark
Jan 7th 2009, 09:46 PM
Yes we are free in Christ but should always live by being above reproach and not being a stumbling blocks to others. Alcohol has many negative images in our culture.
I still haven't heard one person give a good reason for drinking. Examine your heart and explain to us why drinking is so important to you.

It is a far bigger stumbling block to preach prohibition to healing on the sabbath, or drinking alcohol than it is to drink it in front of others. Very few things riled Jesus as much as man made doctrine concerning do's and don'ts.

No need to add more to scripture than this... "Don't get drunk". That will about cover it.

kenrank
Jan 7th 2009, 09:57 PM
We are ALL called to serve the Lord. God called me in the midst of beer drinking.
What would be the sense of God calling only people who are "ok enough" to be His servant? WHO is ok enough to be his servant?
A youth pastor who ordered a beer in public is truly the least of The Churchs burdens.
Oh I am probably going to catch some flack for this one, but, when we post questions such as WHAT DO YOU THINK about this or that...or this person or that person...we are judging. THAT is a concern we all might want to be addressing rather than WHO is ordering a beer at the local steakhouse.
JMO

I see scripture as telling us to judge, just not unto condemnation. Scripture is given to be used for reproof, rebuke, and instruction in righteousness. We have to be able to "judge" in order to rebuke or reprove.

I know many who were called by God in the midst of drugs or alcohol. What happens (not saying you are doing this sister) is that they, once coming to God, attempt to instill "doubtful disputations," (scripturally disputable man made additions to God's law) amongst the brethren. I believe this is exactly, in part, what Paul was dealing with in Romans 14.

Peace.
Ken

militarywife
Jan 7th 2009, 10:06 PM
I see scripture as telling us to judge, just not unto condemnation. Scripture is given to be used for reproof, rebuke, and instruction in righteousness. We have to be able to "judge" in order to rebuke or reprove.

I know many who were called by God in the midst of drugs or alcohol. What happens (not saying you are doing this sister) is that they, once coming to God, attempt to instill "doubtful disputations," (scripturally disputable man made additions to God's law) amongst the brethren. I believe this is exactly, in part, what Paul was dealing with in Romans 14.

Peace.
Ken
I agree with scripture being used for reproof, rebuke, and instruction in righteousness...totally.:)
I also understand where you are coming from with the "doubtful disputations" as I have seen happen plenty of times. However, when God truly delivers a person from their " thorn " that is growth in Christ and allows us to even better serve. It is Gods timing. Not ours. Once I, me, alone tried burying my "bones" but I could not be successful. It wasnt until I made God the all in all of my life that I was able to be delivered. I, being the one God delivered from alcohol, am a LIVING witness to that.
I just feel like sometimes we (general) LOOK for situations to pick apart when really we should lift these issues up to God.
Praise God.

kenrank
Jan 7th 2009, 10:22 PM
I agree with scripture being used for reproof, rebuke, and instruction in righteousness...totally.:)
I also understand where you are coming from with the "doubtful disputations" as I have seen happen plenty of times. However, when God truly delivers a person from their " thorn " that is growth in Christ and allows us to even better serve. It is Gods timing. Not ours. Once I, me, alone tried burying my "bones" but I could not be successful. It wasnt until I made God the all in all of my life that I was able to be delivered. I, being the one God delivered from alcohol, am a LIVING witness to that.
I just feel like sometimes we (general) LOOK for situations to pick apart when really we should lift these issues up to God.
Praise God.

Some great points MW. I don't know if you realize or not, but the Law given at Sinai was because Israel was about to become a nation. It was to be their judicial system. Unfortunately, they did not abide in their end of the agreement, and they broke the covenent. All of the covenants (and this is a lengthy study but a worthwhile one) progress one into the other. They all center on Messiah, redemption, and living under God's authority.

Today, though we are not a "nation" in so many words, we are still once we come in faith to live under the authority of God and not man, certainly not ourselves! Many are saved from bad lives, thorns made of bottles, pipes, sex, many things. When we are delivered from these things we should avoid them and live for him, not ourselves.

I say all that to make a simple point. I (for example) was not living a life of drinking. (I had other issues! ;)) But say my first pastor was. While he should not fall prey to that thorn in his side, it wasn't my thorn and he should not instill a decree for all to avoid his weakness.

In my assembly MW, we actually use wine during communion. Those that don't like wine, or alcohol in general, avoid the "outer ring" and take the grape juice. I think no more or less of them, nor they me for taking from the outer ring of cups. We are simply not to be drunks, to stay sober. The youth pastor who took the beer...a non issue!

Peace to you and blessings.
Ken

militarywife
Jan 7th 2009, 10:38 PM
Some great points MW. I don't know if you realize or not, but the Law given at Sinai was because Israel was about to become a nation. It was to be their judicial system. Unfortunately, they did not abide in their end of the agreement, and they broke the covenent. All of the covenants (and this is a lengthy study but a worthwhile one) progress one into the other. They all center on Messiah, redemption, and living under God's authority.

Today, though we are not a "nation" in so many words, we are still once we come in faith to live under the authority of God and not man, certainly not ourselves! Many are saved from bad lives, thorns made of bottles, pipes, sex, many things. When we are delivered from these things we should avoid them and live for him, not ourselves.

I say all that to make a simple point. I (for example) was not living a life of drinking. (I had other issues! ;)) But say my first pastor was. While he should not fall prey to that thorn in his side, it wasn't my thorn and he should not instill a decree for all to avoid his weakness.

In my assembly MW, we actually use wine during communion. Those that don't like wine, or alcohol in general, avoid the "outer ring" and take the grape juice. I think no more or less of them, nor they me for taking from the outer ring of cups. We are simply not to be drunks, to stay sober. The youth pastor who took the beer...a non issue!

Peace to you and blessings.
Ken
Brother...thank you for your insight. I truly appreciate learning new things everyday. I understand your points.
Blessings always,
Sara

Slug1
Jan 7th 2009, 10:40 PM
Yes we are free in Christ but should always live by being above reproach and not being a stumbling blocks to others. Alcohol has many negative images in our culture.
I still haven't heard one person give a good reason for drinking. Examine your heart and explain to us why drinking is so important to you.

I was once bound by pornography and other sexual immoralities and this was fueled by the Internet and it's millions of pornographic sites. I happen to see you using the Internet... do you actually feel this would make me stumble? If I walked by you say, in a library and you're surfing the Internet, do you feel that your use of the Internet would make me stumble back into my addictions?

If you do feel this and would never use the Internet again cause as a Christian you need to be above reproach... then I'd believe what you just posted and what I quoted. But I see you post alot on this site, so my assumption would be that you would not apply your opinion upon yourself. I'd assume you'd say that you use the internet as Jesus would use the internet in your own defense.

Well, I drink as Jesus would drink and that is responsibly. If you'd ask Jesus why He drank and why it was important to Him as you ask us I'm sure you'd not accept His answer as you will probably not accept any of ours.

godsgirl
Jan 7th 2009, 11:20 PM
You could look at anything I bring up on the internet and share it with your child. Same as you could share whatever I drank with them.

I am of the opinion that Jesus drank nonfirmented wine-and that is how he drank "responsibly"., so, you have yet to answer my question as to why alcohol is so important to you.

The Bible says we are priests and kings....Rev. 6
It is not for kings, O Lemuel,
It is not for kings to drink wine,
Nor for princes intoxicating drink

Slug1
Jan 7th 2009, 11:22 PM
You could look at anything I bring up on the internet and share it with your child.That doesn't change the fact that the internet can be abused and not used as Jesus would.

Slug1
Jan 7th 2009, 11:25 PM
You didn't answer my question by the way... you just put your spin on your answer. Would you stop using the Internet based on your example and opinion of being above reproach?

Slug1
Jan 7th 2009, 11:28 PM
You could look at anything I bring up on the internet and share it with your child. Same as you could share whatever I drank with them.

I am of the opinion that Jesus drank nonfirmented wine-and that is how he drank "responsibly"., so, you have yet to answer my question as to why alcohol is so important to you.

The Bible says we are priests and kings....Rev. 6
It is not for kings, O Lemuel,
It is not for kings to drink wine,
Nor for princes intoxicating drinkOK, your opinion doesn't line up with scripture though. Cause if your opinion was correct then we'd never be reading in the Bible His very words that He came eating and drinking and thus accused of being a drunkard. If what He drank was non-alcoholic, why the accusation. No one accuse a person of being a drunkard if they don't drink alcoholic beverages.

The Bible also clearly states that church leaders are not to be addicted to wine... just like Jesus wasn't addicted but drank responsibly.

So, read all the scriptures and don't limit yourself to only the verses that support your opinion cause this creates false doctrine.

godsgirl
Jan 7th 2009, 11:29 PM
You didn't answer my question by the way... you just put your spin on your answer. Would you stop using the Internet based on your example and opinion of being above reproach?


That is silly-the internet can be used for good or evil-just like tv or your car even---what good does drinking intoxicating drink do? It's pretty obvious. You want to be justified in your choices. You don't have to answer to me.

godsgirl
Jan 7th 2009, 11:31 PM
OK, your opinion doesn't line up with scripture though. Cause if your opinion was correct then we'd never be reading in the Bible His very words that He came eating and drinking and thus accused of being a drunkard. If what He drank was non-alcoholic, why the accusation. No one accuse a person of being a drunkard if they don't drink alcoholic beverages.


Are you asking why Jesus enemies lied about Him? Oh come on now. Surely you don't think they would lie do you?:o:o:o

Brother Mark
Jan 7th 2009, 11:32 PM
That is silly-the internet can be used for good or evil-just like tv or your car even---what good does drinking intoxicating drink do? It's pretty obvious. You want to be justified in your choices. You don't have to answer to me.

So can alcohol. Timothy was instructed to drink alcohol for his stomach's sake. One has to jump through a LOT of hoops to make a case that Jesus wine wasn't fermented.

Slug1
Jan 7th 2009, 11:34 PM
That is silly-the internet can be used for good or evil-just like tv or your car even---what good does drinking intoxicating drink do? It's pretty obvious. You want to be justified in your choices. You don't have to answer to me.I'll answer you ;)

It's a pleasure to sit down and relax in the evening talking to my wife and enjoy a local micro brewed beer. One that is full of flavor.

I don't have to "justify" something that I do that is not sinful. Would you actually ask Jesus to justify His consumption of alcohol?

kenrank
Jan 7th 2009, 11:35 PM
You could look at anything I bring up on the internet and share it with your child.

Godsgirl, I am NOT picking on you!! I can see you have a sincere heart for God, and in the end, isn't that all he asks?

But (isn't there always a but?), Slug has a point. Anything that can cause one to stumble should be looked at through the same eyes you view drinking. If one has a problem with internet porn, bringing up something your child can view is no different than having "just one sip" in front of one delivered from drinking.

My weakness is not yours. We can only guess at what Paul's thorn was, it really doesn't say. Since he didn't say, were those around him not able to doing "anything" or say "anything" for fear of tempting him with his thorn?

One person's weakness is not another's. Trying to instill a decree (a man made law) based on one's weakness is a doubtful disputation. In the end sis, the Word is the final authority and all it repeatedly says is to be of a sober mind. Even here...

1Ti 3:8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

A deacon, not given to "much" wine. Not a prohibition other than to be of a sober mind.

Peace.
Ken

kenrank
Jan 7th 2009, 11:37 PM
I'll answer you ;)

It's a pleasure to sit down and relax in the evening talking to my wife and enjoy a local micro brewed beer. One that is full of flavor.

I don't have to "justify" something that I do that is not sinful. Would you actually ask Jesus to justify His consumption of alcohol?

That is a point, isn't it? The water wasn't turned into grape juice, rather, wine. That isn't saying it was a reception full of drunkeness, of course that wasn't the case.

Micro-brew eh?

Peace.
Ken

Slug1
Jan 7th 2009, 11:38 PM
Are you asking why Jesus enemies lied about Him? Oh come on now. Surely you don't think they would lie do you?:o:o:oIt came from His mouth, not theirs. He said, He came eating and drinking... the words are even red in my Bible.

TrustingFollower
Jan 7th 2009, 11:40 PM
You could look at anything I bring up on the internet and share it with your child. Same as you could share whatever I drank with them.
You really are not in a position to be judging on this, would you give one of your children one of your cigarettes? No you would not, but you still smoke them. What purpose is there in smoking except to fill your own desire for the nicotine right. I am not condemning you for being a smoker as I am one too. What I am getting at here is we all fall into the same category of what is a sin to one may not be a sin to another. I personally have not been convicted by the Holy Spirit against either smoking or having drink. If God convicts me of either or both through the Holy Spirit then I will be sinning if I partake in either.

So what Jesus said in Matthew 8 when they brought the woman caught in adultery, those without sin cast the first stone and on one was able to stone the woman. Judgment starts at home with ourselves then we would be able to judge others.

godsgirl
Jan 7th 2009, 11:51 PM
I"m just giving my opinion-which I believe lines up with the Word-calling it "judging" is your guilty concious.

No, I don't smoke either--used to, and did for the first year after I was saved.
Being convicted or not has little to do with what one should or should not do-because our concious can be seared as with a hot iron and be hard-especially with our "pets".

Have you looked into the question on how todays drinks compare to new wine? How much alcohol content for example.

THE BIBLE CONDEMNS STRONG DRINK
proverbs 20:1 "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise."
NOTE again, Isaiah 5:11 -- "Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them!"
proverbs 23:29-31 -- "Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? (30) They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.(a mixture of wine and spices) (31) Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright."

keck553
Jan 7th 2009, 11:52 PM
If God didn't want people to drink alcohol, the mitzvah would be in Torah. Period.

I find it amazing that the people who belong to God can make up heavy burdens and yokes to weigh down their brothers, yet totally disregard what GOD says to do to live a spiritually, mentally, and physically healthy life.

Sounds like Pharisees.

Brother Mark
Jan 7th 2009, 11:53 PM
Jesus said that which went into a man's mouth doesn't defile him. That seems pretty straight forward to me.

godsgirl
Jan 7th 2009, 11:54 PM
It came from His mouth, not theirs. He said, He came eating and drinking... the words are even red in my Bible.


And this proves????? That Jesus ate and drank??? ok....it does not prove that he drank intoxicating drink.

Brother Mark
Jan 7th 2009, 11:57 PM
And this proves????? That Jesus ate and drank??? ok....it does not prove that he drank intoxicating drink.

My Calvinist friends say God doesn't love the world. They change the meaning of world in John 3:16 to be the elect. Now, my Arminian friends change the meaning of the word wine to be non-alcoholic. Interesting.

godsgirl
Jan 7th 2009, 11:58 PM
Jesus said that which went into a man's mouth doesn't defile him. That seems pretty straight forward to me.


So does this....

I Corinthians 6:19-20 "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's."


I Corinthians 3:16-17 "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."


There are 637 references to wine, drink and drinking in the King James Version of the Bible. Most people think in today's terms, believing that when wine is mentioned it refers to alcoholic wine. Actually, that is not necessarily true. Thirteen different words are translated "wine" in the King James Version of the Bible. The word wine has a wide range of meaning in the Bible, covering everything from grape juice, to concentrated grape syrup to alcoholic wine.

godsgirl
Jan 7th 2009, 11:59 PM
My Calvinist friends say God doesn't love the world. They change the meaning of world in John 3:16 to be the elect. Now, my Arminian friends change the meaning of the word wine to be non-alcoholic. Interesting.


OLD TESTAMENT HEBREW WORDS FOR WINE
"yayin" -- It is a general term for grape beverages and includes all classes of wine, non-alcoholic or alcoholic; unfermented, in the process of fermentation and fermented. (proverbs 31:4) The context will show whether it is alcoholic wine or not. Yayin, when used properly was always diluted with water.
"shekar" -- It is the word for strong drink, unmixed wine. The 1901 edition of THE JEWISH ENCYCLOpEDIA says, "Yakin, wine, is to be distinguished from Shekar, or strong drink. The former is diluted with water; the later is undiluted." Shekar was not diluted with water." (see Numbers 28:7)
"Tirosh" -- This word refers to fresh grape juice. It is referred to often as new wine or sweet wine. (see proverbs 3:10; Deuteronomy 7:13)
NEW TESTAMENT GREEK WORDS FOR WINE
"oinos" is the counterpart to the Old Testament word yayin. It is a general term for grape beverages and includes all classes of wine, non-alcoholic or alcoholic; fermented or unfermented. The context has to be used to determine whether the drink was intoxicating or not. (Luke 10:34; Ephesians 5:18). Oinos, when used properly was always diluted with water.
"sikera" is the counterpart to the Old Testament word shekar. It is the word for strong drink, unmixed wine. (Luke 1:15)
"gleukos" is the counterpart to the Old Testament word tirosh. Dr. paul Dixon says "It refers to fresh wine, a new wine" or freshly squeezed grape juice.

keck553
Jan 7th 2009, 11:59 PM
And this proves????? That Jesus ate and drank??? ok....it does not prove that he drank intoxicating drink.

If you knew the Jewish culture, you would know that Yeshua would never get away with grape juice at a wedding. They'd probably stone Him for such a rude gesture, and the bridegroom would be a joke in that town for the rest of his life.

Obviously wine at a Jewish wedding is quite intoxicating, or Jacob would have recognized Leah.

Brother Mark
Jan 8th 2009, 12:01 AM
So does this....

I Corinthians 6:19-20 "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's."


I Corinthians 3:16-17 "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."

Those verses are in context of fornication not eating and drinking.


There are 637 references to wine, drink and drinking in the King James Version of the Bible. Most people think in today's terms, believing that when wine is mentioned it refers to alcoholic wine. Actually, that is not necessarily true. Thirteen different words are translated "wine" in the King James Version of the Bible. The word wine has a wide range of meaning in the Bible, covering everything from grape juice, to concentrated grape syrup to alcoholic wine.

Yea. My Calvinist friends use similar arguments about the meaning of the word "world" in John 3:16. They're wrong about it too. Alcohol doesn't defile a man. But man made religion does.

Wine can mean alcohol. One has to go to great lengths to show otherwise. Still, we can always go back to what Jesus said about eating and drinking "What goes into a man does not defile the man". Drunkeness is an issue of the heart more than it is an issue of drink. ONe can drink and not get drunk. But let drunkeness be in his heart, and he will get drunk.

keck553
Jan 8th 2009, 12:04 AM
OLD TESTAMENT HEBREW WORDS FOR WINE
"yayin" -- It is a general term for grape beverages and includes all classes of wine, non-alcoholic or alcoholic; unfermented, in the process of fermentation and fermented. (proverbs 31:4) The context will show whether it is alcoholic wine or not. Yayin, when used properly was always diluted with water.
"shekar" -- It is the word for strong drink, unmixed wine. The 1901 edition of THE JEWISH ENCYCLOpEDIA says, "Yakin, wine, is to be distinguished from Shekar, or strong drink. The former is diluted with water; the later is undiluted." Shekar was not diluted with water." (see Numbers 28:7)
"Tirosh" -- This word refers to fresh grape juice. It is referred to often as new wine or sweet wine. (see proverbs 3:10; Deuteronomy 7:13)
NEW TESTAMENT GREEK WORDS FOR WINE
"oinos" is the counterpart to the Old Testament word yayin. It is a general term for grape beverages and includes all classes of wine, non-alcoholic or alcoholic; fermented or unfermented. The context has to be used to determine whether the drink was intoxicating or not. (Luke 10:34; Ephesians 5:18). Oinos, when used properly was always diluted with water.
"sikera" is the counterpart to the Old Testament word shekar. It is the word for strong drink, unmixed wine. (Luke 1:15)
"gleukos" is the counterpart to the Old Testament word tirosh. Dr. paul Dixon says "It refers to fresh wine, a new wine" or freshly squeezed grape juice.

Thanks for the Hebrew lesson. Now please help us divide man made rulings from God-breathed commandments.

Slug1
Jan 8th 2009, 12:07 AM
I"m just giving my opinion-which I believe lines up with the WordYour opinion does line up with all the scripture you read although it seems you sharpied over all scripture that is counter to your opinion :)

Look, I just don't want legalism to battle for ground on this board. You can have your opinion but don't call it wrong to drink because of your opinion. It's wrong for "you" to drink. Wasn't wrong for Jesus to drink, it's not wrong for church leaders to drink and this is supported in scripture... which are those ones you blackend out so you can't read them any more. Only the ones that support your personal opinion seem left for you to read.

We can't have this on the board cause that is legalism and this has no place where God's balanced truth shines.

godsgirl
Jan 8th 2009, 12:17 AM
The older I get and the more of life I see--- the more I am convinced Jesus did not mock that crowd at Canaan's wedding feast with the same stuff that is destroying our society today. Christ came to fulfill the law! The law says, "Wine is a mocker . . . whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise." Was Christ deceived? Would he have served a drink that would have led to a man leaving a feast drunken to heat up his wife?. And in court that man is asked, "How did you get so drunk?" And the convicted man answers, "I went to a wedding feast. Jesus of Nazareth served up a really strong drink. He got me drunk."

I can't conceive that Jesus would mock that crowd and serve a drink that could have been abused if taken immoderately. I believe that elixir Jesus served was the pure juice of the vine - a supernatural punch so full of nature's true blend, it was a unique and welcome change! Would Jesus add alcoholic content to His supernatural drink and make it "bite the cup" when the law said -

"Look not upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his color in the cup, when it moveth itself aright . . ." (Proverbs 23:31)?

That was written by a king who had "given himself over to wine" (Ecclesiastes 2:3). And Christ would have never, never given the guests over to wine that was intoxicating.

Paul knew the law, too. He revered the wisdom of Solomon. Pure juice of the grape is good for the health! It is nutritious. But fermented wine is not more nutritious, according to a doctor friend of mind who is well read on the subject. How could Paul recommend drinking alcoholic wine when the law he respected so warned, ". . . be not among winebibbers..."?

Now, I can give you long lists of reasons not to drink the strong drink-yet no one has come up with one Godly reason for a Christian to indulge.

I'm going to drop out of this one for now-It is not my job to convince you. If I am wrong-and I should be drinking-like you guys-then I'm sure the Lord will convict me.

What have I lost by not drinking? It seems to me that thou dost protest too much. Makes me wonder who you're trying to convince-me or yourself.

HisLeast
Jan 8th 2009, 12:23 AM
I'm going to drop out of this one for now-It is not my job to convince you. If I am wrong-and I should be drinking-like you guys-then I'm sure the Lord will convict me.

Not a single one of us is suggesting that you should be drinking.

We just don't believe the law gives a prohibition to alcohol. It does for Levites, and those under the Nazarene vow, but not for everyone else. Strange since there are extremely specific dietary laws such as not eating pork or shrimp or eagles.


What have I lost by not drinking? It seems to me that thou dost protest too much. Makes me wonder who you're trying to convince-me or yourself.

You lost nothing by drinking. Especially if you don't enjoy the taste.

As for "thou dost protest too much". That is totally out of line and offensive. We're presenting our side with scripture demonstrating both permission and precedent. One could, if one was interested, level the same accusation (protesting to protect vain interest) against you. How convenient that one side gets to bow out of a disagreement when they feel, while the other side was the one "protesting too much". How convenient indeed.

godsgirl
Jan 8th 2009, 12:47 AM
no actually I would not -- you are very easily offended.

HisLeast
Jan 8th 2009, 12:53 AM
no actually I would not -- you are very easily offended.

Very well. I shant protest any of your posts lest I merely be covering my own vices, rather than a genuine pursuit of the truth. NOBODY who disagrees with you could possibly be seeking truth, could they?

TrustingFollower
Jan 8th 2009, 12:58 AM
The older I get and the more of life I see--- the more I am convinced Jesus did not mock that crowd at Canaan's wedding feast with the same stuff that is destroying our society today. Christ came to fulfill the law! The law says, "Wine is a mocker . . . whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise." Was Christ deceived? Would he have served a drink that would have led to a man leaving a feast drunken to heat up his wife?. And in court that man is asked, "How did you get so drunk?" And the convicted man answers, "I went to a wedding feast. Jesus of Nazareth served up a really strong drink. He got me drunk."

I can't conceive that Jesus would mock that crowd and serve a drink that could have been abused if taken immoderately. I believe that elixir Jesus served was the pure juice of the vine - a supernatural punch so full of nature's true blend, it was a unique and welcome change! Would Jesus add alcoholic content to His supernatural drink and make it "bite the cup" when the law said -

"Look not upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his color in the cup, when it moveth itself aright . . ." (Proverbs 23:31)?

That was written by a king who had "given himself over to wine" (Ecclesiastes 2:3). And Christ would have never, never given the guests over to wine that was intoxicating.

Paul knew the law, too. He revered the wisdom of Solomon. Pure juice of the grape is good for the health! It is nutritious. But fermented wine is not more nutritious, according to a doctor friend of mind who is well read on the subject. How could Paul recommend drinking alcoholic wine when the law he respected so warned, ". . . be not among winebibbers..."?

Now, I can give you long lists of reasons not to drink the strong drink-yet no one has come up with one Godly reason for a Christian to indulge.

I'm going to drop out of this one for now-It is not my job to convince you. If I am wrong-and I should be drinking-like you guys-then I'm sure the Lord will convict me.

What have I lost by not drinking? It seems to me that thou dost protest too much. Makes me wonder who you're trying to convince-me or yourself.
I don't see anyone here that has said you should drink. I see all in this thread saying that if you do not drink that is fine, but you condemning those that do have a drink is the issue. You are forcing your convictions upon your brotheren here and judging them in a partial manor.

James 2

8 ¶If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF," you are doing well.
9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
11 For He who said, "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT COMMIT MURDER." Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.
13 For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.

The scriptures do not say don't drink. It says do not get drunk. So verse 12 and 13 are the key points we are under the law of liberty and hence forth we are told to demonstrate mercy. The same kind of mercy we all are on the receiving end of from God.

Emanate
Jan 8th 2009, 01:22 AM
Would he have served a drink that would have led to a man leaving a feast drunken to heat up his wife?. And in court that man is asked, "How did you get so drunk?" And the convicted man answers, "I went to a wedding feast. Jesus of Nazareth served up a really strong drink. He got me drunk."


I tend to believe that each person is responsible for their actions. If a person has the tendency to beat on someone else, especially a woman, it is dodging the issue to blame the alcohol. The person was at fault and there is no excuse, not even alcohol, that can lay the blame at someone else's feet. We should take responsibility for or own actions.

Brother Mark
Jan 8th 2009, 01:38 AM
The older I get and the more of life I see--- the more I am convinced Jesus did not mock that crowd at Canaan's wedding feast with the same stuff that is destroying our society today. Christ came to fulfill the law! The law says, "Wine is a mocker . . . whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise." Was Christ deceived? Would he have served a drink that would have led to a man leaving a feast drunken to heat up his wife?. And in court that man is asked, "How did you get so drunk?" And the convicted man answers, "I went to a wedding feast. Jesus of Nazareth served up a really strong drink. He got me drunk."

Mock? No, he blessed them with alcoholic wine. Shoot, he made the stuff in the beginning anyway. ;)


Now, I can give you long lists of reasons not to drink the strong drink-yet no one has come up with one Godly reason for a Christian to indulge.Already given one. Paul told Timothy to drink some wine for his stomach's sake. A second one would be just to enjoy it. God gives us all things, including wine, to enjoy. That is also in the book of Timothy.


I'm going to drop out of this one for now-It is not my job to convince you. If I am wrong-and I should be drinking-like you guys-then I'm sure the Lord will convict me.Do you think that just perhaps, the reverse is true? That if we are wrong, then the Lord will convict us? Yet strangely, none of us feel convicted.


What have I lost by not drinking? It seems to me that thou dost protest too much. Makes me wonder who you're trying to convince-me or yourself.I don't drink either. My resistance has to do with resisting religion more than it has to do with justifying drinking. Drinking needs no justification as it's not sinful.

VerticalReality
Jan 8th 2009, 03:46 AM
I don't drink either. My resistance has to do with resisting religion more than it has to do with justifying drinking. Drinking needs no justification as it's not sinful.

Same here, and that is the bottom line. I don't drink either. However, it is not my place to slap laws on folks that simply do not exist. I don't drink simply because I don't want to . . . not because there is something wrong with it. I would rather drink a Pepsi. :lol:

kenrank
Jan 8th 2009, 05:24 AM
So does this....

I Corinthians 6:19-20 "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's."


I Corinthians 3:16-17 "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."


There are 637 references to wine, drink and drinking in the King James Version of the Bible. Most people think in today's terms, believing that when wine is mentioned it refers to alcoholic wine. Actually, that is not necessarily true. Thirteen different words are translated "wine" in the King James Version of the Bible. The word wine has a wide range of meaning in the Bible, covering everything from grape juice, to concentrated grape syrup to alcoholic wine.

Wine is wine sis, history and a little study will show it was in use by believers since long before Messiah.

Funny though...you quote the verse about your body being the Temple of the Set Apart Spirit. Does this mean that you do not put anything into your body any longer that is damaging to your body? You stopped smoking (congrats!), don't drink....but do you eat foods with partially hydrogenated oils, high fructose corn syrup, other additives and preservatives that are known to be damaging to your body? Do you drink soda, eat meats full of steriods and anti-biotics, eat bottom dwelling poop eating fish?

I posted a verse before showing attendents (deacons) are not given to "much drink." The repeating theme concerning drink is to be sober. I don't get your hang up??

Peace.
Ken

kenrank
Jan 8th 2009, 05:27 AM
The law says, "Wine is a mocker . . . whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise." Was Christ deceived?

What have I lost by not drinking? It seems to me that thou dost protest too much. Makes me wonder who you're trying to convince-me or yourself.

First, "wine is a mocker" is not "the law." It is a proverb, a parable, abstract speech. The "Law" (Torah) is the first 5 books of the bible. Second, you have lost nothing by not drinking...nor have I for the once a month glass of wine I have.

Peace.
Ken

tango
Jan 8th 2009, 08:15 AM
THE BIBLE CONDEMNS STRONG DRINK
proverbs 20:1 "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise."
NOTE again, Isaiah 5:11 -- "Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them!"
proverbs 23:29-31 -- "Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? (30) They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.(a mixture of wine and spices) (31) Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright."

Are you actually reading the verses you post? Let's look over those three verses, with a little emphasis added:

proverbs 20:1 "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise."

Whoever is deceived by wine and strong drink is not wise. No arguments there. What about those who are not deceived, because they drank in moderation?


Isaiah 5:11 -- "Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them!"

No arguments there either. Those who rise early and stay up late so they can extend their drinking hours suffer all sorts of ill effects. What about those who rise early to go to work and don't stay up late so they can drink for longer, those who drink a beer or two and then stop before it "inflames them"?



proverbs 23:29-31 -- "Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? (30) They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.(a mixture of wine and spices) (31) Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.

Still no arguments there? Who hath woe? They that tarry long at the wine? What about those who don't "tarry long" at the wine, those who drink a glass and then stop?


You've done a great job of finding instructions over and above Eph 5:18 that we shouldn't get drunk, and no evidence at all that alcohol is prohibited. Once again, if you choose not to drink alcohol for whatever reason that is a valid decision, just as it is a valid decision to choose to drink in moderation.

Sandusky
Jan 8th 2009, 01:45 PM
This is what Tim 3:3 actually says: ἄστοργοι, ἄσπονδοι, διάβολοι, ἀκρατεῖς, ἀνήμεροι, ἀφιλάγαθοι.

Where does it say that Church leaders are not to drink alcohol...?
Drunkeness (intemperance) is what is forbidden. As others have said, Christ Himself drank wine and actually instructed us to do so at the Last Supper in remembrance of Him. No need to throw the proverbial baby out with the bathwater here. ;)

Steve M
Jan 8th 2009, 02:04 PM
Same here, and that is the bottom line. I don't drink either. However, it is not my place to slap laws on folks that simply do not exist. I don't drink simply because I don't want to . . . not because there is something wrong with it. I would rather drink a Pepsi. :lol:
There is wisdom in those words right there.

A scripture to ponder:

Colossians 2

20If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,

21"Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!"

22(which all refer to things destined to perish with use)--in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?

23These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.

Paul says that putting restrictions above and beyond what the Bible restricts can't really help you against fleshly indulgence.

That's a scripture that makes me ponder, as it still seems to my mind that there must be some way to avoid drunkeness if you don't touch alcohol at all. Yet, Paul seems to disagree with me; and I tend to take his thoughts as being at a slightly higher level than mine.

Hm... things to think about.

Athanasius
Jan 8th 2009, 02:14 PM
Well, I certainly hate alcohol because of the many abusive alcoholics in my family and as much as I'd like scripture to prohibit consuming alcohol at all... It doesn't. So sure, Christians and pastors can absolutely drink. Of course, must always keep in mind our witness.

Yankee Candle
Jan 8th 2009, 02:24 PM
Are you actually reading the verses you post? Let's look over those three verses, with a little emphasis added:

proverbs 20:1 "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise."

Whoever is deceived by wine and strong drink is not wise. No arguments there. What about those who are not deceived, because they drank in moderation?


Isaiah 5:11 -- "Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them!"

No arguments there either. Those who rise early and stay up late so they can extend their drinking hours suffer all sorts of ill effects. What about those who rise early to go to work and don't stay up late so they can drink for longer, those who drink a beer or two and then stop before it "inflames them"?



proverbs 23:29-31 -- "Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? (30) They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.(a mixture of wine and spices) (31) Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.

Still no arguments there? Who hath woe? They that tarry long at the wine? What about those who don't "tarry long" at the wine, those who drink a glass and then stop?


You've done a great job of finding instructions over and above Eph 5:18 that we shouldn't get drunk, and no evidence at all that alcohol is prohibited. Once again, if you choose not to drink alcohol for whatever reason that is a valid decision, just as it is a valid decision to choose to drink in moderation.

This person completely overlooked the true intent and meaning of Prov. 20:1 and especially 23:31. If we are warned to not even 'look upon' wine when it has reached its intoxicating state then how can we justify drinking it? Wine is given in two senses in the Bible: fresh, pure wine (non-intoxicating) and fermented (intoxicating). The Bible never calls it grape juice but that it exactly what it is before it ferments. That is what the Lord invites us to drink. We can have all we want.

I will NOT be a stumblingblock in front of others who might struggle with alcohol, especially ex-drunkards who could be easily influenced back into a world of sin because of a weakness they have towards that substance.

I have had a close friend for over twenty years who argued with me on this point and would not receive correction about it. He took the 'drinking in moderation' position and was quite vehement that there was nothing wrong with a social drink now an then. Then the day came when he asked me to pray for his eldest daughter who had just been arrested for drunk driving. I did not say, "I told you so". I was sorry for him and for his daughter. Nonetheless, guess who introduced his wayward daughter to her very first drink of intoxicating liguor??? In moderation, of course!

HisLeast
Jan 8th 2009, 02:46 PM
Nonetheless, guess who introduced his wayward daughter to her very first drink of intoxicating liguor??? In moderation, of course!

Shall I submit anecdotal evidence of severe alcoholism coming out of a family of passionate prohibitionists?

kenrank
Jan 8th 2009, 02:52 PM
This person completely overlooked the true intent and meaning of Prov. 20:1 and especially 23:31. If we are warned to not even 'look upon' wine when it has reached its intoxicating state then how can we justify drinking it? Wine is given in two senses in the Bible: fresh, pure wine (non-intoxicating) and fermented (intoxicating). The Bible never calls it grape juice but that it exactly what it is before it ferments. That is what the Lord invites us to drink. We can have all we want.

I will NOT be a stumblingblock in front of others who might struggle with alcohol, especially ex-drunkards who could be easily influenced back into a world of sin because of a weakness they have towards that substance.

I have had a close friend for over twenty years who argued with me on this point and would not receive correction about it. He took the 'drinking in moderation' position and was quite vehement that there was nothing wrong with a social drink now an then. Then the day came when he asked me to pray for his eldest daughter who had just been arrested for drunk driving. I did not say, "I told you so". I was sorry for him and for his daughter. Nonetheless, guess who introduced his wayward daughter to her very first drink of intoxicating liguor??? In moderation, of course!

This thread has fascinated me. Can Yankee Candle or Godsgirl give scripture that anyone save for a bishop (KJV term) is not to drink? No, and yet when you look at the word "wine" in Greek as related to Yahushua turning water into wine, we see:

oy'-nos
A primary word (or perhaps of Hebrew origin [H3196]); "wine" (literally or figuratively): - wine.

H3196
yah'-yin
effervesce, by implication- intoxication, wine

The water was not turned into grape juice....well...maybe grape juice with a bite.

YC, I am 42. I buy about a bottle of wine a YEAR.(on average) I buy a 6 pack of Sam Adams beer once every six months and it takes me about that long to drink 6. About the most alcohol I have consumed in one sitting since was about 25 was last weekend, when some brethren from our congregation came over and I had a glass and a half of wine while watching Fiddler on the Roof. (I had never seen it, pretty cool flick) Can you show me a scripture where anything I just said stands in opposition to scripture? I am not trying to back you into a corner...trick you...play mind games...I seek to do the will of YHWH, period. To date, I have not found an alcohol prohibition type verse in scripture, but rest assured, if there is one, I want to know it. Again, I seek the will of God.

Peace.
Ken

tango
Jan 8th 2009, 03:09 PM
I will NOT be a stumblingblock in front of others who might struggle with alcohol, especially ex-drunkards who could be easily influenced back into a world of sin because of a weakness they have towards that substance.


I hope by the same argument you resist use of the internet, so as not to be a stumbling block for those who struggle with internet pornography.

I trust you will also avoid eating cakes, in case you cause someone who struggles with gluttony to stumble.



I have had a close friend for over twenty years who argued with me on this point and would not receive correction about it. He took the 'drinking in moderation' position and was quite vehement that there was nothing wrong with a social drink now an then. Then the day came when he asked me to pray for his eldest daughter who had just been arrested for drunk driving. I did not say, "I told you so". I was sorry for him and for his daughter. Nonetheless, guess who introduced his wayward daughter to her very first drink of intoxicating liguor??? In moderation, of course!So you'll throw the baby out with the bath water? The fact is that drinking in moderation is not an issue, you said yourself that your friend's daughter was arrested for drunk driving. In other words, not drinking in moderation AND drinking at an inappropriate time.

Many years ago my brother was knocked off his motorbike and nearly killed by a driver who had very likely had a "liquid lunch" at work. He drinks in moderation, as do I, as do my parents who spent many days at his bedside in hospital.

When I am sitting at home with my wife I have no problem with drinking a beer or two. If I'm driving I'll stick to a single beer (i.e. sufficiently little that I am in full control AND within the legal limits for driving) and often not even that. That's what this term "moderation" is all about.

Again, going back to the same argument as I used above - these people you see who can barely fit through a door started out eating cakes in moderation.

HankZ
Jan 8th 2009, 03:20 PM
This person completely overlooked the true intent and meaning of Prov. 20:1 and especially 23:31. If we are warned to not even 'look upon' wine when it has reached its intoxicating state then how can we justify drinking it? Wine is given in two senses in the Bible: fresh, pure wine (non-intoxicating) and fermented (intoxicating). The Bible never calls it grape juice but that it exactly what it is before it ferments. That is what the Lord invites us to drink. We can have all we want.

I will NOT be a stumblingblock in front of others who might struggle with alcohol, especially ex-drunkards who could be easily influenced back into a world of sin because of a weakness they have towards that substance.

I have had a close friend for over twenty years who argued with me on this point and would not receive correction about it. He took the 'drinking in moderation' position and was quite vehement that there was nothing wrong with a social drink now an then. Then the day came when he asked me to pray for his eldest daughter who had just been arrested for drunk driving. I did not say, "I told you so". I was sorry for him and for his daughter. Nonetheless, guess who introduced his wayward daughter to her very first drink of intoxicating liguor??? In moderation, of course!

If you read about the first miricle Jesus did, you will see that Jesus made real wine that had real alcohol in it. The sin is not in the drink, but in the over drinker. That is to say that we are not to be drunk or a drunkard. Jesus said they called Him a drunkard. That means to me that Jesus was seen on several occasions drinking a fermented grape juice(wine.) Why else would He be called a drunkard? I know Jesus was never intoxicated, but He did drink alcohol.

Didn't Martin Luther say something along the lines of, if women cause men to sin, shall we also outlaw women? He although politically incorrect for today's standards, was making a very valid point. Shall we remove anything that can cause a man to sin? Computers, telephone, cars, guns, money, baseball bats, ect... In and of themselves, these things are neutral. They can be good or bad depending on the use or over use. Computers can be used for spreading the Gospel and pornography, telephones can be used for prayer chains and 900 #s, cars can be used to deliver food to hungry people and drive by shootings, guns can protect families from other gun toting people with ill will, and so on. Alcohol can be drank in the old style Christian pubs, while men discuss their walks with the Savior as well as over-consumed to cause drunkenss.

Personally I haven't had a drink in nearly 4 years because I used alcohol to get intoxicated on a regular basis,in other words I was a drunk. I gave it up, not because the drink was sinning, but because I was sinning. I drive a car, yet my brother used one to kill a woman. I do not blaim his car nor my father for teaching him how to drive, but my brother who sat behind the wheel.

I understand your point and your convictions on this topic, but I respectfully disagree.

one_lost_coin
Jan 8th 2009, 06:52 PM
but then Luther was known to enjoy a good beer...

After checking a might also add how surprised I have seen these verses trotted out yet. Deuteronomy 14:26 You may then exchange the money for whatever you desire, oxen or sheep, wine or strong drink, or anything else you would enjoy, and there before the LORD, your God, you shall partake of it and make merry with your family.

As always I would encourage reading all of Duet 14 and even all of Duet to read it in context as to verify context doesn't change what it obviously says here and in this case it doesn't.

I can assure you wine means wine and strong drink doesn't mean the soured milk.

ProjectPeter
Jan 8th 2009, 08:59 PM
Listen folks... this is a topic that just gets folks upset on both sides of the issue.

Biblical facts. Wine, beer, strongdrink, liquor... call it what you want... can make you a fool and a drunkard. This is a sin. Thing is... none of those things in and of itself make you a drunkard. That is one's on lack of self-control.

The wine in the Bible was one of an alcoholic nature. Those who like to pretend that "new wine" was in fact freshly trodden out grape juice... you are incorrect and the Bible says that even the "new wine" could mess with your thinking. I've never had grape juice have any adverse effect on me save keeping me in the bathroom for a bit of time over the usual bit of time.

Hosea 4:11 ¶Harlotry, wine, and new wine take away the understanding.

Trying to turn the wine spoken of in the Bible into what amounts to Welsh's Grape Juice doesn't work Scripturally folks.

Now... drink away and be happy! NO! Look folks... if drinking is a sin to you then don't drink because it IS sin to you because there is no way that you could do it in faith. If drinking to you is not a sin then drink very carefully but be it known... if you become a drunkard then not only are you a fool here in the now and now... you're in danger of being in a fools place for eternity.

For those that think you have the self-control let me challenge you to take a long hard look in the "facts of your life" and see if that be so because I dare say that there aren't many that possess that virtue to a point where they can totally be comfortable, not to mention honest, when asked that question. Without self-control then rest assured... even a small amount of alcohol can be a danger to you. Let's keep it real. It's not about condemnation... it is about keeping it real.

For those of you who are totally against it in the dogmatic way that I have seen in this thread... you need to stop trying to make excuses for the Bible. Jesus doesn't need us defending Him for drinking wine when drinking wine was no sin. Yes... it is abused and especially in the USA. Just because folks abuse it doesn't make it sin. I know folks that abuse the Bible, gifts of the Spirit, body of Christ, and most every other thing good. That doesn't put it in the ranks of "sin" just because someone else is hosing it up even if that number is high.

Let's close this thread and if another starts up by a new member... exercise some of that self-control and let's not get all froggy in just yet another thread on alcohol.