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catlover
Jan 7th 2009, 12:58 AM
If Armagedon happens first and everyone is killed, where do the people who live during the 1,000 reign come from. And aren't the 144,000 only Jews. I'm very confused.

quiet dove
Jan 7th 2009, 01:15 AM
Depends on who you ask, I will give you my answer from a pre trib perspective. Of the ones who survive the GT, and live into the Millennial reign of Christ, will be those who accepted Christ. Most believers will be killed during the GT, however, some will survive and be those who repopulate the earth during that Millennial time frame. Those who survive the GT and live to see Christ Second Advent will be taken from the earth and not live into the Millennial as Rev 20 says "they did not live again" until the 1000 years was done and they (unbelievers)will be the ones also suffering the second death when as described later in Rev the earth gives up her dead and they are all judged.

MacGyver
Jan 7th 2009, 01:18 AM
If Armagedon happens first and everyone is killed, where do the people who live during the 1,000 reign come from. And aren't the 144,000 only Jews. I'm very confused.
Being an Amill, I say the 1000 year reign comes first because it is the Church Age, then Armagedon. I believe Rev. 16:16 is the same as Rev. 20:8-9.

yaza
Jan 7th 2009, 01:45 AM
If Armagedon happens first and everyone is killed, where do the people who live during the 1,000 reign come from. And aren't the 144,000 only Jews. I'm very confused.
god doesnt want you to be confused, remember that people who believe in christ are his body and his body will not be divided. dont listen to anyone except the spirit. there are many decievers out there whether they know it or not,they ignore plain scripture and draw many to themselfs, so if someone tells you that old test saints have to wait until the very end to be glorified, they have no understanding. heb 11:40. god bless and good luck!

ross3421
Jan 7th 2009, 02:25 AM
If Armagedon happens first and everyone is killed, where do the people who live during the 1,000 reign come from. And aren't the 144,000 only Jews. I'm very confused.

You rightly understand that ALL on the earth are killed when Christ returns. All believers on earth which do not receive the mark are previously killed by the beast and the wicked remaining by Christ. Actually even the 144,000 which are Jews are killed as well or God would be a liar to his own word.

There is no one to populate a supposed 1000 year reign. The resurrected will populate the eternal kingdom.


Mark

yaza
Jan 7th 2009, 02:33 AM
You rightly understand that ALL on the earth are killed when Christ returns. All believers on earth which do not receive the mark are previously killed by the beast and the wicked remaining by Christ. Actually even the 144,000 which are Jews are killed as well or God would be a liar to his own word.

There is no one to populate a supposed 1000 year reign. The resurrected will populate the eternal kingdom.


Mark
amen to that and there is only one judgement one return one day one name one lord one god

DurbanDude
Jan 7th 2009, 08:53 AM
You rightly understand that ALL on the earth are killed when Christ returns. All believers on earth which do not receive the mark are previously killed by the beast and the wicked remaining by Christ.

There are many verses that contradict this statement, and whenever they are quoted for some reason those who say that all will be killed have no answer for those verses.

There is no verse that says all will be killed, I would like to see that so-called verse.

In a similar thread third hero quoted the following verses to show there will be survivors:


And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. Revelation 19:15

As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time. Daniel 7:12

And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom [is] an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. Daniel 7:27

Ask of me, and I shall give [thee] the heathen [for] thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth [for] thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. Psalm 2:8-9

And it shall come to pass, [that] every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. Zechariah 14:16

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Revelation 20:4

DurbanDude
Jan 7th 2009, 08:58 AM
If Armagedon happens first and everyone is killed, where do the people who live during the 1,000 reign come from. And aren't the 144,000 only Jews. I'm very confused.

14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
14:19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

The heathen nations, those that were not resurrected at the second coming will be living then. They are the ungodly survivors of the second coming. The resurrected saints will also be living then, they will have eternal bodies and be reigning with Christ here on the transformed earth.

DIZZY
Jan 7th 2009, 11:06 AM
If Armagedon happens first and everyone is killed, where do the people who live during the 1,000 reign come from. And aren't the 144,000 only Jews. I'm very confused.

Hi catlover,
I believe it is as quiet dove says and I will also add that the 144,000 are Jews from the twelve tribes of Israel. The 144,000 Jews are protected by God during the tribulation period for they have been sealed by God.

John146
Jan 7th 2009, 05:05 PM
There are many verses that contradict this statement, and whenever they are quoted for some reason those who say that all will be killed have no answer for those verses.This is not true. You just don't agree with the answers we give.


There is no verse that says all will be killed, I would like to see that so-called verse.2 Thess 1
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Please explain how any unbelievers are not included among those who "know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ".

Luke 17
26And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Just as all the unbelievers were killed in Lot and Noah's day "Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.".

2 Peter 3
10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

I can't say how anyone would survive the burning up of the earth.

Rev 19
15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

When it says "all men, both free and bond, both small and great" that means it's all-inclusive. All unbelievers will be killed.

Grafted_In
Jan 7th 2009, 06:02 PM
This is not true. You just don't agree with the answers we give.
Rev 19
When it says "all men, both free and bond, both small and great" that means it's all-inclusive. All unbelievers will be killed.
But what about the passage DurbanDude quoted...it suggests that their will be many survivors from the nations. Isnt this speaking of the millennial reign?

14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
14:19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

John146
Jan 7th 2009, 09:06 PM
But what about the passage DurbanDude quoted...it suggests that their will be many survivors from the nations. Isnt this speaking of the millennial reign?I don't believe it is speaking of an earthly millennial reign following the second coming of Christ. I believe we need to start with clear scripture, which I believe includes passages like the ones I quoted, and interpret more difficult passages like Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20 in light of what the more clear passages teach.

We've gone into detail on this on other threads and you can read those to see how people interpret that passage from Zech 14 in different ways. For this thread, I just wanted to share my own view for the OP to consider because he/she indicated that he/she was confused about this issue.

ross3421
Jan 7th 2009, 11:32 PM
But what about the passage DurbanDude quoted...it suggests that their will be many survivors from the nations. Isnt this speaking of the millennial reign?

There are those which survive the second death. None survive the first.

DurbanDude
Jan 8th 2009, 07:13 AM
This is not true. You just don't agree with the answers we give.

.

OK I do agree with you here.

Of all the proof texts that I have given so far, only Rev 19 and Zechariah 14 were discussed in detail, so I did get answers there that I disagreed with. I suggested that the interpretation given contradicts itself in both cases.




2 Thess 1
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.


All this verse is showing is that the Day of the Lord will be a great separation and will be a dramatic day. There is nothing to indicate that all will be destroyed. Let me analyse this passage:
The Lord will be revealed in flaming fire- this is describing the Lord
He will take vengeance - this does not state or imply universal death, to conclude universal death would be making conclusions from assumptions based on your own beliefs. Vengeance is worldwide cataclysm. Cities destroyed, mountains laid low, sea tossing, hail etc etc, these events are prophesied all over without the mention of universal death.
Punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and the glory of His power- this is describing how they no longer can be saved, they will never experience God as we do, we experience His power and His presence for eternity, after the second coming this door is closed to them forever. All unbelievers are included in this punishment of eternal destruction of their souls, whether they physically survive or not.




Luke 17
26And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Just as all the unbelievers were killed in Lot and Noah's day "Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.".


Sodom was a regionalised destruction, these comparisons are not conclusive about every individual dying. Yes, wordwide destruction due to a world-wide earthquake, and regional annihilation (eg we know that all at Megiddo will die) but not necessarily all on earth will die from that earthquake and the other judgements.



2 Peter 3
10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

I can't say how anyone would survive the burning up of the earth.



We have to read this in the light of another 12 verses that say the earth is not burnt up: Kindly read these verses:



Ecclesiastes 1:4 says, "the earth abideth forever."

Psalm 78:69 says, "the earth which he hath established forever."

Psalm 93:1b says, "The world also is established, that it cannot be moved."

Psalm 96:10 says, “the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved.”

Psalm 104:5 says, "Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed forever."

Psalm 148:4-6 says, “Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens. Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created. He hath also stablished them for ever and ever.”

Although amills often explain Zech 14 in terms of a symbolic representation of the church age, I believe that it fits better into a post second coming world and should be literally translated. The symbolism of "heathens" either worshipping the Lord or being punished does not fit the church age. The only explanation of Zechariah 14 that fits well, is of a survival of earth and heathens after the second coming:
Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.


How can certain regions have birds surviving in those regions if the whole earth is burnt up? :
Isaiah 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
34:9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
34:10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.
34:11 But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness

Just certain regions, but not the whole earth, are desolate after the second coming, ****tim is blessed:
Joel 3:18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth out of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of ****tim.
3:19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.

A sixth of gog survives:
Ezekiel 39:1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
39:2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:

People REMAIN on the face of the earth after the second coming:
39:14 And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth, to cleanse it: after the end of seven months shall they sear

There is old age and children after the second coming when the Lord RETURNS to Zion(ie not a new Zion):
Zechariah 8:3 Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.
8:4 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, and every man with his staff in his hand for very age.
8:5 And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the streets thereof.



Readin 2 Peter 3 in light of the above 12 verses that indicate survival of this earth I conclude that:

The earth will not have complete destruction, therefore when the verse refers to elements being burnt up it refers to (elements are historically soil/fire/water/vegetation/rock/metals- the basic materials of earth) complete localised destructions, and a renewed earth.



Rev 19
15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

When it says "all men, both free and bond, both small and great" that means it's all-inclusive. All unbelievers will be killed


How can it be referring to all men over the whole earth when Rev 19:15 (highlighted above) indicates that after the second coming the nations will be ruled over.

The rest of the passage is specifically referring to the war, and all the various types of soldiers that are gathered at that war. All of those soldiers of that war will die.

Zechariah 14 gives a better perspective on the death of all the soldiers of that war and yet the survival of nations.

John146
Jan 8th 2009, 05:12 PM
All this verse is showing is that the Day of the Lord will be a great separation and will be a dramatic day. There is nothing to indicate that all will be destroyed. Let me analyse this passage:
The Lord will be revealed in flaming fire- this is describing the Lord
He will take vengeance - this does not state or imply universal death, to conclude universal death would be making conclusions from assumptions based on your own beliefs. Vengeance is worldwide cataclysm. Cities destroyed, mountains laid low, sea tossing, hail etc etc, these events are prophesied all over without the mention of universal death.
Punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and the glory of His power- this is describing how they no longer can be saved, they will never experience God as we do, we experience His power and His presence for eternity, after the second coming this door is closed to them forever. All unbelievers are included in this punishment of eternal destruction of their souls, whether they physically survive or not.I completely disagree with your conclusions here. I believe the passage is clearly saying that Christ will take vengeance on all people that don't know God or obey the gospel of Christ when He returns. All unbelievers fit that description.



Sodom was a regionalised destruction, these comparisons are not conclusive about every individual dying. Yes, wordwide destruction due to a world-wide earthquake, and regional annihilation (eg we know that all at Megiddo will die) but not necessarily all on earth will die from that earthquake and the other judgements.All unbelievers died at Sodom and in the flood. Since His second coming is a global event I believe this implies that all unbelievers in the world will die just as they did in the flood.


We have to read this in the light of another 12 verses that say the earth is not burnt up: Kindly read these verses:You misunderstand my view. Paul (wpm) explained it before and I quoted him and said I agreed with his position, but I guess you missed it. I don't believe the earth is going to be burned up and completely annihilated. I believe the surface of the entire earth will be burned up and then made new. So, I believe the new earth is actually going to be this earth but made new with no more wicked people or anything wicked remaining on the earth. As Peter says in 2 Peter 3:13, it will be a place "wherein dwelleth righteousness".


Readin 2 Peter 3 in light of the above 12 verses that indicate survival of this earth I conclude that:

The earth will not have complete destruction, therefore when the verse refers to elements being burnt up it refers to (elements are historically soil/fire/water/vegetation/rock/metals- the basic materials of earth) complete localised destructions, and a renewed earth.I agree


How can it be referring to all men over the whole earth when Rev 19:15 (highlighted above) indicates that after the second coming the nations will be ruled over. Actually, it seems to me that Rev 19:15 says they will be destroyed. We can't ignore the part about Christ treading the winepress of the wrath of God. You can read Rev 14:18-20 to see what that means.


The rest of the passage is specifically referring to the war, and all the various types of soldiers that are gathered at that war. All of those soldiers of that war will die.I don't believe it's speaking of literal soldiers but is referring to unbelievers in general as being part of Satan's spiritual army of darkness. Notice that it speaks of them sitting on horses. Do you really see a bunch of soldiers literally gathering together riding on horses? What I believe is being missed here is that this is not speaking of a regional physical battle but rather a global spiritual battle. It mentions that all people "both free and bond, both small and great" will be killed. That is all-inclusive language that goes along with passages like 2 Thess 1:7-8 which indicates that all people who don't know God and obey the gospel of Christ will be destroyed on that day.


Zechariah 14 gives a better perspective on the death of all the soldiers of that war and yet the survival of nations.That's if Zech 14 was speaking of the second coming, but I don't believe it is.

DIZZY
Jan 8th 2009, 09:09 PM
There are those which survive the second death. None survive the first.

Hi ross,
Who survives the second death?

DurbanDude
Jan 9th 2009, 06:48 AM
I completely disagree with your conclusions here. I believe the passage is clearly saying that Christ will take vengeance on all people that don't know God or obey the gospel of Christ when He returns. All unbelievers fit that description.


All unbelievers died at Sodom and in the flood. Since His second coming is a global event I believe this implies that all unbelievers in the world will die just as they did in the flood.

You misunderstand my view. Paul (wpm) explained it before and I quoted him and said I agreed with his position, but I guess you missed it. I don't believe the earth is going to be burned up and completely annihilated. I believe the surface of the entire earth will be burned up and then made new. So, I believe the new earth is actually going to be this earth but made new with no more wicked people or anything wicked remaining on the earth. As Peter says in 2 Peter 3:13, it will be a place "wherein dwelleth righteousness".

I agree

Actually, it seems to me that Rev 19:15 says they will be destroyed. We can't ignore the part about Christ treading the winepress of the wrath of God. You can read Rev 14:18-20 to see what that means.

I don't believe it's speaking of literal soldiers but is referring to unbelievers in general as being part of Satan's spiritual army of darkness. Notice that it speaks of them sitting on horses. Do you really see a bunch of soldiers literally gathering together riding on horses? What I believe is being missed here is that this is not speaking of a regional physical battle but rather a global spiritual battle. It mentions that all people "both free and bond, both small and great" will be killed. That is all-inclusive language that goes along with passages like 2 Thess 1:7-8 which indicates that all people who don't know God and obey the gospel of Christ will be destroyed on that day.

That's if Zech 14 was speaking of the second coming, but I don't believe it is.

John 146, thanks for the reply. I won't go into a detailed response here, I just thought it was fair to the OP that they have some detail of the differing views. I guess they have enough material to make their own conclusions now.

catlover
Jan 9th 2009, 01:15 PM
MY HEAD IS SPINNING -- I'm even more confused now.

DIZZY
Jan 10th 2009, 03:12 AM
If Armagedon happens first and everyone is killed, where do the people who live during the 1,000 reign come from. And aren't the 144,000 only Jews. I'm very confused.

Hi catlocer,

Let's look at Armegeddon, at the end of the tribulation period the Lord returns to take back what was rightfully His. When the Lord returns the wicked on the earth are destroyed and sent into outer darkness.

Who does that leave on the earth if the wicked has been destroyed?

During the tribulation there are people who are saved, these are the righteous ones of the who inherit the Kingdom prepared for them before the foundations of the earth.

Matthew 25:34 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=25&verse=34&version=50&context=verse)
Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

These are the ones that are saved from all the nations.

When the Lord returns the nations gather together to the great battle which we know as Armegeddon. Those who have been saved do not go to battle against the Lord.

The Lord comes and those who have gone against Him are consumed on the spot.

Revelation 19:11-16
11I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.
16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

Zechariah 14:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=45&chapter=14&verse=12&version=50&context=verse)
And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet, Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets, And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.

Those people who go intop the 1000yr reign are those who have been saved from the preaching of the 144,000 Rev 7 tells us who the 144,000 are.

Not only is it the 144,000 Jews preaching during the tribulation period but there are two witness and angels flying about the heavens you can read about this in revelation 11.

I hope this has helped you.

ross3421
Jan 10th 2009, 03:11 PM
Hi catlocer,

Your making catlover more dizzy...........


Let's look at Armageddon, at the end of the tribulation period the Lord returns to take back what was rightfully His. When the Lord returns the wicked on the earth are destroyed and sent into outer darkness.

Who does that leave on the earth if the wicked has been destroyed?

Nobody.


During the tribulation there are people who are saved, these are the righteous ones of the who inherit the Kingdom prepared for them before the foundations of the earth.

Matthew 25:34 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=25&verse=34&version=50&context=verse)
Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:




This is speaking of the resurrection of all not of those only "living" on the earth at the time of Armaggedon.....


Those people who go intop the 1000yr reign are those who have been saved from the preaching of the 144,000 Rev 7 tells us who the 144,000 are.

First, scripture gives no indication that the 144,000 do any preaching. In fact they do not even give themselves to the Lord until the end of the trib.

It is simple, those on the earth at this time with either receive the mark or not. ALL of those which do not receive the mark are killed prior to Christ's return. Those which receive the mark are killed upon Christ's return.

The will be no one in earthly bodies to inherit some 1000 year reign. There will be those remaining after the wicked are cast away after the resurrection and given a new body to inherit the eternal kingdom.


Mark

ross3421
Jan 10th 2009, 03:14 PM
Hi ross,
Who survives the second death?

There will be those which will not face the second death and have no power over them. This is what I was trying to say.....

BryanM
Jan 10th 2009, 08:19 PM
The most confusing to me is why satan is loosed from his prison after these 1000 years. Haven't we had enough of him already?

DIZZY
Jan 10th 2009, 09:45 PM
The righteous saints from every nation survive the tribulation, these are the ones that go into the Millennial Kingdom in their mortal bodies.

Those who have died during the tribulation will rule with the Old Testament saints and the rapture saints with the Lord.

Revelation 20:4
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Daniel 12:13
13 “But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days.”

1 Corinthians 6:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=6&verse=2&version=50&context=verse)
Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?


The righteous saints escape the second death for the second death is eternal destruction in the lake of fire.

Who are the righteous saints? All those who believed in God and the promises He made our Saviour Jesus Christ, to put it plainly.

Revelation 21:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=21&verse=8&version=50&context=verse)
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

ross3421
Jan 10th 2009, 10:44 PM
The most confusing to me is why satan is loosed from his prison after these 1000 years. Haven't we had enough of him already?

And why would he be loosened out of his prison twice?

First time

Re 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Second time

Re 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Joe King
Jan 14th 2009, 05:47 AM
There are those which survive the second death. None survive the first.

What about these verses?


Thessalonians 4:15
According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:14-16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=59&chapter=4&verse=14&end_verse=16&version=31&context=context) (in Context) 1 Thessalonians 4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=59&chapter=4&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
1 Thessalonians 4:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=59&chapter=4&verse=17&version=31&context=verse)
After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

DIZZY
Jan 15th 2009, 12:01 AM
There are those which survive the second death. None survive the first.

The first death is physical death.
The second death is spiritual in the lake of fire.

The saints die once but live twice.
The wicked live once and die twice.

None of the wicked survive the second death.

ross3421
Jan 15th 2009, 03:11 AM
The first death is physical death.
The second death is spiritual in the lake of fire.

The saints die once but live twice.
The wicked live once and die twice.

None of the wicked survive the second death.

I don't disagree......

There will be those which will not face the second death and have no power over them. This is what I was trying to say.....

You have still yet to answer my previous questions...

ross3421
Jan 15th 2009, 03:19 AM
What about these verses?


Thessalonians 4:15
According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:14-16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=59&chapter=4&verse=14&end_verse=16&version=31&context=context) (in Context) 1 Thessalonians 4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=59&chapter=4&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
1 Thessalonians 4:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=59&chapter=4&verse=17&version=31&context=verse)
After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.


No one survives the first death.

Your translation has seemed to add a bit of extra meaning....... "still" alive ? Look at the timing of the events, the catching up occurs AFTER a resurrection which occurs AFTER Christ returns.

What happens when one is resurrected? He is made alive and remains as the wicked are cast away.

1co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

1co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Now reread 1 Thess

1th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


The dead in Christ are the "alive and remain" once resurrected.


Mark

DIZZY
Jan 15th 2009, 04:03 AM
And why would he be loosened out of his prison twice?

First time

Re 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Second time

Re 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


Hi ross,
My friend we can not mistake the beast for Satan, Satan gives power to the Beast, and it is the Beast and the false prophet thrown into the lake of fire long before satan is cast into the lake of fire.

The beast comes up out of the pit once was, now is not and is to come.

Satan on the other hand roams the earth and goes before God accussing the brethren. So the beast and Satan are two different entities.

Job 1:6,7
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. 7 And the LORD said to Satan, “From where do you come?”
So Satan answered the LORD and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.”

Revelation 12:7-9
7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

If you look at Revelation 12 & 17 together you can see that the Beast that rises from the sea and the abyss are one in the same. The dragon being Satan gives him power and authority.

So once again I say that Satan and the Beast you speak of that comes out of the abyss are two different entities.