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mfowler12
Jan 7th 2009, 02:25 PM
I know most will say 40 or 70 years, but what does Genesis 15:12-16 say?


12 Now when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and behold, horror and great darkness fell upon him. 13 Then He said to Abram: “Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years. 14 And also the nation whom they serve I will judge; afterward they shall come out with great possessions. 15 Now as for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried at a good old age. 16 But in the fourth generation they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2015:12-16;&version=50;

What are your thoughts? It appears to me that the Lord is telling Abram that his people, descendants, will be afflicted for 400 years and that this nation they serve (Egypt) will be judged (7 plagues) and they will come out of there will great possessions to a land (Israel) that the Lord has promised to Abram but cannot have yet because the iniquity of those who live there are is not yet fulfilled.

So, God is saying that a generation is 100 years, no?

(Thanks again David and quiet dove for your assistance in this discussion.)

Since the Lord has told Abram that a generation is 100 years, where do people come up with 40 and 70 year generations when talking about the Israel's most recent claim of God's holy land?

Now, for the end times connection. I think that when Jesus said that "this generation will not pass away," He was referring to the last generation of humans on earth prior to His second coming. Meaning, once we see the signs of His coming (the Fig Tree parable), we know that it is coming before we die. How does this fit into your end times opinion? Obviously people do not normally live to be 100 years old so do these passages connect with one another?

BroRog
Jan 7th 2009, 02:36 PM
I know most will say 40 or 70 years, but what does Genesis 15:12-16 say?



What are your thoughts? It appears to me that the Lord is telling Abram that his people, descendants, will be afflicted for 400 years and that this nation they serve (Egypt) will be judged (7 plagues) and they will come out of there will great possessions to a land (Israel) that the Lord has promised to Abram but cannot have yet because the iniquity of those who live there are is not yet fulfilled.

So, God is saying that a generation is 100 years, no?

The reason I post this here is because Jesus told His followers that "this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place." Matthew 24:33

I know that some on here feel that some other time frame, but I find it interesting that Jesus said that this generation will not pass away and the Lord talking to Abram says that the fourth generation is 400 years (100 years by my math).

Does this change your opinion on the end times scenario?

Things mean what they mean in the context in which they appear. Matthew 24:33 is not intended to denote a duration of time, but rather, it refers to the Jewish people.

That is, Jesus is saying "This people will not pass away . . . " and etc.

mfowler12
Jan 7th 2009, 09:11 PM
Things mean what they mean in the context in which they appear. Matthew 24:33 is not intended to denote a duration of time, but rather, it refers to the Jewish people.

That is, Jesus is saying "This people will not pass away . . . " and etc.

How do you come to that conclusion? The Lord in Genesis is the same Lord in Matthew, no? I don't understand why there would be a different meaning.

Now, I admit that this could very well be a language and interpretation problem on my end. Please, if you have any insight to the Greek/Hebrew versions, share with me.

David Taylor
Jan 7th 2009, 09:55 PM
Things mean what they mean in the context in which they appear. Matthew 24:33 is not intended to denote a duration of time, but rather, it refers to the Jewish people.

That is, Jesus is saying "This people will not pass away . . . " and etc.

If this is only for the Jewish people:


Matt 24:32-33 "Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Then why does the parallel Luke verses here:


Luke 21:29 "And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand."
what does Luke want us to understand "and all the trees" to mean, if the passage is only intended for the Jewish people?

divaD
Jan 7th 2009, 10:22 PM
Things mean what they mean in the context in which they appear. Matthew 24:33 is not intended to denote a duration of time, but rather, it refers to the Jewish people.

That is, Jesus is saying "This people will not pass away . . . " and etc.



I'm not entirely convinced that it's talking specifically about the Jewish people, but I do see your point and agree. Generation should be interpreted as a class of people, and not as duriration of time. Jesus used this word several times in other passages. From the context, it seemed clear in some cases, that He was referring to a class of people, and not to an era of time.

mfowler12
Jan 7th 2009, 10:26 PM
I'm not entirely convinced that it's talking specifically about the Jewish people, but I do see your point and agree. Generation should be interpreted as a class of people, and not as duriration of time. Jesus used this word several times in other passages. From the context, it seemed clear in some cases, that He was referring to a class of people, and not to an era of time.

Could you post those scriptures?

divaD
Jan 7th 2009, 11:42 PM
Could you post those scriptures?




One place would be Matthew ch 12 starting from verse 38, ending with verse 45.

Another place- Matthew 23:24-39. There are more than this, but this should present the general idea, especially after looking at the link I provided below.

Since posting my other post, I decided to do a search on the Net to see if I could find anything that is basically saying what I'm trying to say. I found this link. It gives a pretty good explanation, and of course states it much better than I ever could. I don't mean to cheat by letting someone else explain things for me, but sometimes things are so well written, such as the link below, that I could never express this position as well as is in this link, even tho I pretty much see it the same way.

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/faq/generation.shtml

markedward
Jan 8th 2009, 01:03 AM
Things mean what they mean in the context in which they appear. Matthew 24:33 is not intended to denote a duration of time, but rather, it refers to the Jewish people.Ah.

So... even though the context of Matthew 24 is the destruction of the Second Temple (there was only one Second Temple), and the fact that the Second Temple was destroyed in that generation exactly as Christ described, and that Christ was answering a question on when something would happen...

No, no, nevermind. Let's change the definition of the word and ignore how Christ used it in the gospels as referring to a timeframe of people, just as it was used later on in the epistles.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 8th 2009, 01:25 AM
Ah.

So... even though the context of Matthew 24 is the destruction of the Second Temple (there was only one Second Temple), and the fact that the Second Temple was destroyed in that generation exactly as Christ described...

No, no, nevermind. Let's change the definition of the word and ignore how Christ used it in the gospels as referring to a timeframe of people, just as it was used later on in the epistles.

Wow, has someone stood on your pet?

Psa 24:3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?
Psa 24:4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.
Psa 24:5 He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.
Psa 24:6 This is the generation of them that seek him, that seek thy face, O Jacob. Selah.
Psa 24:7 Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.

markedward
Jan 8th 2009, 01:36 AM
Wow, has someone stood on your pet?This doesn't appear to answer any of the points I made, namely:

1. The context of the Olivet Discourse was the destruction of the Second Temple. There can't be a second, Second Temple. That would make it a third temple. But Christ pointed at the temple right in front of Him and said "It's gonna get destroyed". The disciples asked, "When", and He responded "This generation shall not pass before it happens".

2. The Second Temple did get destroyed within the lifetime of that very same generation.

3. The word in Greek, genea, specifically refers to a group of people living at the same time. If Christ was speaking about a race of people, the Greek would have used the word for race, being genos.

BroRog
Jan 8th 2009, 03:04 AM
Ah.

So... even though the context of Matthew 24 is the destruction of the Second Temple (there was only one Second Temple), and the fact that the Second Temple was destroyed in that generation exactly as Christ described...

No, no, nevermind. Let's change the definition of the word and ignore how Christ used it in the gospels as referring to a timeframe of people, just as it was used later on in the epistles.

The context of Matthew 24 is not limited to the destruction of a building or a building complex. And the meaning is enhanced if we open the context to the previous chapter as well.

Let's start back in Matthew 23 to find two items pertinent to the issue. First, notice how Jesus uses the term "generation" in this chapter, which comes just before Matthew 24. Next, notice what Jesus says will happen to "this house."

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, and say, 'If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

"Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.

"Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
Lament over Jerusalem

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, 'BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!'"

The first underline shows how Jesus is using the term "generation", which he uses to indicate people not a period of time. Jesus, as a prophet of God is using a familiar prophet's word, "woe" which he uses to denounce those affected and curse them to suffer a misery they deserve. He is saying something like, "You! Pharisees! May you suffer terribly for what you are about to do. I am going to send you wise men and scribes and rather than hearing their important message, you will kill them. For this you deserve a terrible fate at the hand of an angry God."

The next underline was spoken by Jesus in a tender way toward the city of Jerusalem. He wanted to treat them with care to raise them from chicks to full grown birds, so to speak. But they refused. Instead, her "house" was left desolate -- house, meaning "dynasty". Her leadership would all be gone: no king to rule them; no Pharisees to encourage them; no scribes to teach them the Bible; no one to protect them and care for them.

Not only was the temple destroyed, but as Jesus says also,

Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Jesus told the Pharisees that they would have the guilt of their fathers on their heads because, just as their fathers killed the prophets sent to them, they would also kill the wise men and scribes Jesus would send. In this chapter, Jesus has now turned to the Apostles to tell them that they will be killed. And as a just recompense for killing the wise men Jesus will send, the people will fall away, betray one another, hate one another, and lawlessness will be increased. The Apostles will have just enough time to spread the Gospel message worldwide, and then the end will come.

Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand) then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Not only did the temple fall, but the entire population, especially in Judea, came under a great attack from the north just as it was in the days of Antiochus Epiphanes who came from the North to desolate the temple, turn the people to Hellenism, and remove all vestiges of Judaism from the land. Just as Antiochus tried to wipe out Judaism, the Romans tried to wipe out the Jews. And after that, all the Hitlers of the world attempted to wipe out every living Jew so as to be rid of them once-and-for-all. The persecutions will keep coming and coming and coming until it will be impossible to see how the Jews will survive. But, because God accounts the Hebrews as his chosen people, for their sake the days of persecution will not go so far as to wipe them all out.

"But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

The days of great tribulation and persecution will not last. Soon after God's vengeance against his people has been spent, he will turn to them once again to love her has his own again. Great and Terrible celestial events will portend the coming of the Messiah to rule over his kingdom and his people, who will say "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord." At that time, the Hebrew people will return to the land of promise from the four winds, from the nations into which they were scattered.

Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

Just as the green leaf of the fig tree indicates that summer is coming soon, the gathering of the Jews back to the land of promise is a sign that Jesus is very near, right at the door. His people will not be wiped out and will be waiting for him when he returns. The heavens and earth will pass away, but a promise of Jesus will never fail to come true.

BroRog
Jan 8th 2009, 03:16 AM
If this is only for the Jewish people:
Then why does the parallel Luke verses here:
what does Luke want us to understand "and all the trees" to mean, if the passage is only intended for the Jewish people?

David,

It's a parable, not an allegory. :)

A parable makes a conceptual analogy, taking into account that most people will know what it means when trees gain their green leaves.

Deciduous trees lose their leaves in the winter time. At the beginning of spring, the trees begin to form buds at the end of their branches. By the end of spring, the buds continue to grow into fully formed, green leaves. Just as the leaves are fully grown and ready to take advantage of the summer sun, the summer arrives just in time.

By analogy, the nation of Israel will come back to life, the Hebrew people will return to the promised land, the temple will be rebuilt, the priesthood will be reconstituted, and many other preparations will take place in anticipation of the coming Messiah. And just as the entire nation comes to life in both a material and a spiritual sense, the Lord will return just in time.

The difference in wording between Luke and Matthew is simply because Matthew likes to be brief, and tends to leave out some details in favor of having more accounts of Jesus in his gospel.

BroRog
Jan 8th 2009, 03:27 AM
This doesn't appear to answer any of the points I made, namely:

1. The context of the Olivet Discourse was the destruction of the Second Temple. There can't be a second, Second Temple. That would make it a third temple. But Christ pointed at the temple right in front of Him and said "It's gonna get destroyed". The disciples asked, "When", and He responded "This generation shall not pass before it happens".

2. The Second Temple did get destroyed within the lifetime of that very same generation.

3. The word in Greek, genea, specifically refers to a group of people living at the same time. If Christ was speaking about a race of people, the Greek would have used the word for race, being genos.

A new temple will be built. This is the one that Jesus will enter in triumph at his return, entering the east Gate, which will remain locked until his return.

While genea can certainly indicate an entire race living during a specified period of time, the term can also indicate a succession of the same family line as seems to be the point in Matthew 1:17.

:)

markdrums
Jan 8th 2009, 03:34 AM
I know most will say 40 or 70 years, but what does Genesis 15:12-16 say?



What are your thoughts? It appears to me that the Lord is telling Abram that his people, descendants, will be afflicted for 400 years and that this nation they serve (Egypt) will be judged (7 plagues) and they will come out of there will great possessions to a land (Israel) that the Lord has promised to Abram but cannot have yet because the iniquity of those who live there are is not yet fulfilled.

So, God is saying that a generation is 100 years, no?

(Thanks again David and quiet dove for your assistance in this discussion.)

Since the Lord has told Abram that a generation is 100 years, where do people come up with 40 and 70 year generations when talking about the Israel's most recent claim of God's holy land?

Now, for the end times connection. I think that when Jesus said that "this generation will not pass away," He was referring to the last generation of humans on earth prior to His second coming. Meaning, once we see the signs of His coming (the Fig Tree parable), we know that it is coming before we die. How does this fit into your end times opinion? Obviously people do not normally live to be 100 years old so do these passages connect with one another?


I have to go with the "face value / literal interpretation" in this instance.

Jesus was speaking TO his disciples, when he said:(Paraphrasing)
"Do you see this temple & surrounding buildings? I tell you the truth, some of YOU standing here right now will see them destroyed. This generation, meaning the generation of you, my disciples, will not pass until this is fulfilled.
So when YOU, my disciples see the Abomination, (which is the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem) you need to flee to the mountains.
Just like the fig tree, when the leaves begin to bud, you (my disciples) know summer is just around the corner... and so is the destruction."

I don't see how Jesus could be talking about a FAR FUTURE generation, seeing how he kept specifying "YOU" to his disciples. It would have been very confusing to them

That would be like me telling my daughter, "I will take you to Disney Word before you're out of school.".... (but I didn't really mean my daughter, I meant some other person, like maybe a grandchild 30 years from now....)

That's my thought.
:)

BroRog
Jan 8th 2009, 04:17 AM
I have to go with the "face value / literal interpretation" in this instance.

Jesus was speaking TO his disciples, when he said:(Paraphrasing)
"Do you see this temple & surrounding buildings? I tell you the truth, some of YOU standing here right now will see them destroyed. This generation, meaning the generation of you, my disciples, will not pass until this is fulfilled.
So when YOU, my disciples see the Abomination, (which is the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem) you need to flee to the mountains.
Just like the fig tree, when the leaves begin to bud, you (my disciples) know summer is just around the corner... and so is the destruction."

I don't see how Jesus could be talking about a FAR FUTURE generation, seeing how he kept specifying "YOU" to his disciples. It would have been very confusing to them

That would be like me telling my daughter, "I will take you to Disney Word before you're out of school.".... (but I didn't really mean my daughter, I meant some other person, like maybe a grandchild 30 years from now....)

That's my thought.
:)

The statement about the perpetual "genea" comes much later in the prophecy. Destruction of the temple is just a small portion of a larger view.

Psalms Fan
Jan 8th 2009, 05:09 AM
I agree with markdrums 100%. I see no reason from the text of Matt 24 (as well as the texts of the parallel accounts in Mark and Luke) to conclude that Jesus was answering anything other than what the disciples asked Him, namely, when the Temple would be destroyed (taken as parallel accounts, the questions of the "sign of your coming" (quoting Dan 7, which was a coming TO the Father, not FROM Him) and the end of the age (not world, as the KJV puts it), ie, the age that they were living in, are both one and the same question, as well as the same question as when the temple would be destroyed. All three questions meant the same exact thing).

In fact, the rest of the NT indicates that those very signs were being fulfilled while the NT was being written. Paul even writes two different times that the gospel had been preached to the whole world.

BroRog
Jan 8th 2009, 05:17 AM
I agree with markdrums 100%. I see no reason from the text of Matt 24 (as well as the texts of the parallel accounts in Mark and Luke) to conclude that Jesus was answering anything other than what the disciples asked Him, namely, when the Temple would be destroyed (taken as parallel accounts, the questions of the "sign of your coming" (quoting Dan 7, which was a coming TO the Father, not FROM Him) and the end of the age (not world, as the KJV puts it), ie, the age that they were living in, are both one and the same question, as well as the same question as when the temple would be destroyed. All three questions meant the same exact thing).

In fact, the rest of the NT indicates that those very signs were being fulfilled while the NT was being written. Paul even writes two different times that the gospel had been preached to the whole world.

Yes, he does. Paul writes that the Gospel had been preached to the whole world. And Jesus said that when that happens, "the end" would come. And the end did come. But after that, Jesus says, there will come a tribulation unlike any other tribulation ever seen.

And the Jews have been living in tribulation now for about 2000 years. And the Jews did not go by the way of the Hittites. They are still here, which was his point. I think. The Jews will take all of this abuse, but they will not pass away. And they didn't.

markedward
Jan 8th 2009, 05:18 AM
In fact, the rest of the NT indicates that those very signs were being fulfilled while the NT was being written. Paul even writes two different times that the gospel had been preached to the whole world.He said it more than twice.

Romans 1:8, Romans 10:18, Romans 16:25-26, Colossians 1:5-6, Colossians 1:23.

Psalms Fan
Jan 8th 2009, 05:19 AM
He said it more than twice.

Romans 1:8, Romans 10:18, Romans 16:25-26, Colossians 1:5-6, Colossians 1:23.

The more the merrier.

David2
Jan 8th 2009, 05:52 AM
What we need to understand when trying to make sense of these difficult passages in Scriptures, is that the concept of the coming of the kingdom and the return of Christ was for them something that would happen SOON. Not 2000 years or more as it turned out eventually. Reed the whole context in Mathew and you will see that SOON is actually the main point that is stressed in these verses.

The meaning of this generation in such a context could as far as I understand it, not refer to a period of time at the end of the days. If this was the meaning of Christ 's words then the whole context does not make sense. A generation of time by the end of the days says nothing about the SOON return of the Lord which is the main point made in these verses.

If we take the generation to be the nation of Israel, the same argument applies. It would be meaningless to tel those people that Israel would still exist as a nation when the kingdom is introduced and then to use the statement to indicate how SOON the Son of man would return.

Therefore, the meaning of this generation should be the natural and straight forward meaning in the sentence. By the word "generation", Jesus was referring to the people standing in front of Him and listening to Him, whoever they were. Most people resist this normal, straight forward interpretation because, as they say, this would make Jesus a liar because He did not return within the lifetime of the people living then.

There is, however one fact that people overlook. The whole statement as found in Mathew 24:34 is in fact a conditional statement. The words: "will not pass away" is in the optative mode of the verb and the sentence start with the word "an" in Greek. The people who know the language will tell you that "an" with the optative is not a direct speech statement and also not an unconditional prophecy. It is in fact a conditional prophecy, though the condition itself is not stated clearly, but it can be found in many other verses.

To understand this statement clearer it should have been translated like: "Assuredly I say to you, this generation will conditionally not pass away till all these things are fulfilled" or " Assuredly I say to you, this generation will under certain circumstances not pass away until all these things are fulfilled."

Not as though Christ Himself was uncertain about what would happen. He knew very well. But everything was not revealed at that stage. When Christ spoke these words, He was still offering the kingdom to the nation of Israel. Read the whole prophecy in the OT. The coming of the kingdom was linked to the coming of Messiah. Never did the OT reveal that Messiah would come first and then the kingdom would be introduced only 2000 years later. And even here where Christ was speaking, it was never said that the coming of Messiah and the coming of the kingdom would be so many years apart. The people around Jesus on that day still expected the kingdom IMMEDIATELY because the Messiah came. (See also Acts. 1:6)

So, what did Jesus tell them? He told them: "Fine, this could very well still be the case". He could not tell them at that stage that the promise is postponed by 2000 years. Why not? Because the kingdom was still being offered to the Jews. You can not offer it at the one hand and then at the other hand tell them that they will not get it in any way. So, Jesus told them, and that was very true, that on a certain condition they could certainly still get the coming of the kingdom in their lifetime.

What was this condition? The repentance of Israel and their acceptance, as a nation, of Jesus as the Messiah, which did obviously not take place. Read Acts 3:19-25 very carefully as an explanation of Mathew 24:34.


ACTS 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that so there may come seasons of refreshing from the presence of the Lord;

ACTS 3:20 and that he may send the Christ who hath been appointed for you, `even' Jesus:

ACTS 3:21 whom the heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, whereof God spake by the mouth of His holy prophets that have been from of old.

ACTS 3:22 Moses indeed said, A prophet shall the Lord God raise up unto you from among your brethren, like unto me. To him shall ye hearken in all things whatsoever he shall speak unto you. (but they didn't)

ACTS 3:23 And it shall be, that every soul that shall not hearken to that prophet, shall be utterly destroyed from among the people. (This is what sadly happened to that nation because of unbelief)

ACTS 3:24 Yea and all the prophets from Samuel and them that followed after, as many as have spoken, they also told of these days.

ACTS 3:25 Ye are the sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with your fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

Often when there is a heated debate around a certain statement in scripture, the confusion arises because the plain biblical meaning is overlooked. The interpretation given above, is not another theoretical construction, but the real plain scriptural meaning. The optative construction in Math. 24:34 is just a biblical fact. Furthermore, the interpretation from Acts 3:19-25 is a clear case of Scripture interpreting Scripture. Please take note that Acts 3:19-25 was spoken very soon after Math. 24:34, in fact, it was in that very same year.

Romulus
Jan 8th 2009, 03:12 PM
What we need to understand when trying to make sense of these difficult passages in Scriptures, is that the concept of the coming of the kingdom and the return of Christ was for them something that would happen SOON. Not 2000 years or more as it turned out eventually. Reed the whole context in Mathew and you will see that SOON is actually the main point that is stressed in these verses.

The meaning of this generation in such a context could as far as I understand it, not refer to a period of time at the end of the days. If this was the meaning of Christ 's words then the whole context does not make sense. A generation of time by the end of the days says nothing about the SOON return of the Lord which is the main point made in these verses.

If we take the generation to be the nation of Israel, the same argument applies. It would be meaningless to tel those people that Israel would still exist as a nation when the kingdom is introduced and then to use the statement to indicate how SOON the Son of man would return.

Therefore, the meaning of this generation should be the natural and straight forward meaning in the sentence. By the word "generation", Jesus was referring to the people standing in front of Him and listening to Him, whoever they were. Most people resist this normal, straight forward interpretation because, as they say, this would make Jesus a liar because He did not return within the lifetime of the people living then.

There is, however one fact that people overlook. The whole statement as found in Mathew 24:34 is in fact a conditional statement. The words: "will not pass away" is in the optative mode of the verb and the sentence start with the word "an" in Greek. The people who know the language will tell you that "an" with the optative is not a direct speech statement and also not an unconditional prophecy. It is in fact a conditional prophecy, though the condition itself is not stated clearly, but it can be found in many other verses.

To understand this statement clearer it should have been translated like: "Assuredly I say to you, this generation will conditionally not pass away till all these things are fulfilled" or " Assuredly I say to you, this generation will under certain circumstances not pass away until all these things are fulfilled."

Not as though Christ Himself was uncertain about what would happen. He knew very well. But everything was not revealed at that stage. When Christ spoke these words, He was still offering the kingdom to the nation of Israel. Read the whole prophecy in the OT. The coming of the kingdom was linked to the coming of Messiah. Never did the OT reveal that Messiah would come first and then the kingdom would be introduced only 2000 years later. And even here where Christ was speaking, it was never said that the coming of Messiah and the coming of the kingdom would be so many years apart. The people around Jesus on that day still expected the kingdom IMMEDIATELY because the Messiah came. (See also Acts. 1:6)

So, what did Jesus tell them? He told them: "Fine, this could very well still be the case". He could not tell them at that stage that the promise is postponed by 2000 years. Why not? Because the kingdom was still being offered to the Jews. You can not offer it at the one hand and then at the other hand tell them that they will not get it in any way. So, Jesus told them, and that was very true, that on a certain condition they could certainly still get the coming of the kingdom in their lifetime.

What was this condition? The repentance of Israel and their acceptance, as a nation, of Jesus as the Messiah, which did obviously not take place. Read Acts 3:19-25 very carefully as an explanation of Mathew 24:34.


ACTS 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that so there may come seasons of refreshing from the presence of the Lord;

ACTS 3:20 and that he may send the Christ who hath been appointed for you, `even' Jesus:

ACTS 3:21 whom the heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, whereof God spake by the mouth of His holy prophets that have been from of old.

ACTS 3:22 Moses indeed said, A prophet shall the Lord God raise up unto you from among your brethren, like unto me. To him shall ye hearken in all things whatsoever he shall speak unto you. (but they didn't)

ACTS 3:23 And it shall be, that every soul that shall not hearken to that prophet, shall be utterly destroyed from among the people. (This is what sadly happened to that nation because of unbelief)

ACTS 3:24 Yea and all the prophets from Samuel and them that followed after, as many as have spoken, they also told of these days.

ACTS 3:25 Ye are the sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with your fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

Often when there is a heated debate around a certain statement in scripture, the confusion arises because the plain biblical meaning is overlooked. The interpretation given above, is not another theoretical construction, but the real plain scriptural meaning. The optative construction in Math. 24:34 is just a biblical fact. Furthermore, the interpretation from Acts 3:19-25 is a clear case of Scripture interpreting Scripture. Please take note that Acts 3:19-25 was spoken very soon after Math. 24:34, in fact, it was in that very same year.


There was no condition that Israel must receive Christ. If you believe so, where is this condition. I don't see any scripture postponing anything due to unacceptance.

Nonetheless, Israel did receive the Gospel........believing Israel. What were the disciples? They were all Jews, and many other Jews were added to their number throughout the New Testament. The shear fact that a majority did not receive the Gospel goes along with what Jesus said.

Not all Israel is Israel

It was the Jews with faith in Jesus that were Israel and along with believing gentiles became the one children of God. Unbelieving Israel was broken off and judged in the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. The Gospel was available to Israel first and the remnant did accept it(disciples etc.) and then it was given to the gentiles as well.

Israel today has the Gospel available to them and many are receiving it along with Muslims, hindus, atheists etc. God did not postpone any of His plans due to rejection of His Son. Jesus predicted judgement on unbelieving Israel within a generation. Within a generation Matthew 23 and 24 came true with the destruction of the temple.

Everywhere that "this generation" is used it meant a generation then living. Why change the meaning in this one scripture?

David2
Jan 8th 2009, 03:49 PM
Romulus
Read my post again. I also said that the generation was the people living then.

But you restrict Jesus words to the destruction of Jerusalem which is your own construction. What Jesus said wat that "all things" will happen within that generation, including the coming of the son of man.

Furthermore, there are quite a few other parallel passages in Mathew, containing the very same conditional statement (you deny it but it is clear in the Greek) and in those statements it is also clear that the generation would witness EVERYTHING, including the coming of the Son of man and the coming of the kingdom. Read Matthew 16:26 and 27 very carefully and responsibly. And don't tell me it was fulfilled at the mount of transfiguration because the kingdom did not come on the mountain at all.

No, there is only one logical explanation. This verse in Matt. 16 is the same as Matt. 24:34. Look in the Greek or ask someone that can. They are both conditional statements.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 9th 2009, 12:00 AM
Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Jesus did not say, that the kingdom would not be restored to Israel.

He told His disciples "It is not for you to know the times or the seasons,

which the Father hath put in his own power.

Does this not also mean the day or the hour, that only the Father knows?

markdrums
Jan 9th 2009, 03:47 AM
A new temple will be built. This is the one that Jesus will enter in triumph at his return, entering the east Gate, which will remain locked until his return.

While genea can certainly indicate an entire race living during a specified period of time, the term can also indicate a succession of the same family line as seems to be the point in Matthew 1:17.

:)

I still don't see where the focus of Jesus' prophecy would shift from his actual direct audience, and then shift to a far future "generation" 2000+ years later. :confused

And not to derail the O.P. here.... but a "New Temple"?
Jesus is NOT going to dwell in or reign from a rebuilt, future temple. His exact words were:

Jhn 2:19 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=2&v=19&t=KJV#comm/19)Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Jhn 2:20 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=2&v=19&t=KJV#comm/20)Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
Jhn 2:21 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=2&v=19&t=KJV#comm/21)But he spake of the temple of his body.


And..... the woman at the well asked him about choosing the proper temple to worship in.

Jhn 4:20 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=4&v=23&t=KJV#comm/20)Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
Jhn 4:21 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=4&v=23&t=KJV#comm/21)Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
Jhn 4:22 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=4&v=23&t=KJV#comm/22)Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Jhn 4:23 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=4&v=23&t=KJV#comm/23)But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Jhn 4:24 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=4&v=23&t=KJV#comm/24)God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.

Jesus was making it as clear as he could..... The "age of temple worship & sacrifices" was coming to an end.... In fact, he said the time had alread come.

There were MANY references given from the Apostles and evn Christ HIMSELF, to indicate the context of "THIS GENERATION" meant exactly the generation Jesus was speaking to.
Otherwise, there was no reason to say, "The time is coming, AND IS NOW".

BroRog
Jan 9th 2009, 04:33 AM
I still don't see where the focus of Jesus' prophecy would shift from his actual direct audience, and then shift to a far future "generation" 2000+ years later. :confused

Actually, I don't believe that Jesus has shifted to a far future generation. As I said before, his use of the term "genea" in this context doesn't specify a duration of time at all. When he says, "this genea will not pass away . . ." he means "this race" will not be destroyed.


There were MANY references given from the Apostles and evn Christ HIMSELF, to indicate the context of "THIS GENERATION" meant exactly the generation Jesus was speaking to.
Otherwise, there was no reason to say, "The time is coming, AND IS NOW".


Am I saying that the text rules out your interpretation? Not at all. But it doesn't rule out mine either. I just think mine fits the text better.

For one thing, take a look at these two verses taken together.

Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

I was reading through Jeremiah one day, and I came across these two verses, which are almost parallel. These verses are the very next two verses after God announces the New Covenant

35Thus says the LORD,
Who gives the sun for light by day
And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night,
Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar;
The LORD of hosts is His name:
36"If this fixed order departs
From before Me," declares the LORD,
"Then the offspring of Israel also will cease
From being a nation before Me forever."

If Satan were able to kill every Jew on earth, he could stop God from keeping his word, which would make Satan more powerful than God (which he isn't.) God lays claim to having sovereignty over the fixed order of the heavenly bodies. And he says, if that fixed order can get away from him, then Israel will fail to be a nation before him. But the opposite is actually true. Israel's existence as a nation is as sure as the fixed order of the stars and planets because they both depend on a God who never fails.

Now Jesus comes along and says, "well, in fact heaven and earth WILL pass away, but even at that, God will not fail to keep his promise to the Jews.

markdrums
Jan 9th 2009, 06:05 AM
Actually, I don't believe that Jesus has shifted to a far future generation. As I said before, his use of the term "genea" in this context doesn't specify a duration of time at all. When he says, "this genea will not pass away . . ." he means "this race" will not be destroyed.



Am I saying that the text rules out your interpretation? Not at all. But it doesn't rule out mine either. I just think mine fits the text better.

For one thing, take a look at these two verses taken together.

Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

I was reading through Jeremiah one day, and I came across these two verses, which are almost parallel. These verses are the very next two verses after God announces the New Covenant

35Thus says the LORD,
Who gives the sun for light by day
And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night,
Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar;
The LORD of hosts is His name:
36"If this fixed order departs
From before Me," declares the LORD,
"Then the offspring of Israel also will cease
From being a nation before Me forever."

If Satan were able to kill every Jew on earth, he could stop God from keeping his word, which would make Satan more powerful than God (which he isn't.) God lays claim to having sovereignty over the fixed order of the heavenly bodies. And he says, if that fixed order can get away from him, then Israel will fail to be a nation before him. But the opposite is actually true. Israel's existence as a nation is as sure as the fixed order of the stars and planets because they both depend on a God who never fails.

Now Jesus comes along and says, "well, in fact heaven and earth WILL pass away, but even at that, God will not fail to keep his promise to the Jews.

I guess the main difference would be that we view the context of "ISRAEL" differently.
I see Israel as ALL Believers.... not an ethnic group of people. Israel in context is "SPIRITUAL" Israel...... In fact, the NAME Israel is Spiritual.... especially in it's origin.

Israel was named after Jacob who wrestled with God.....
Gen 32:28 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Gen&c=32&v=25&t=KJV#comm/28) And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

Last question-
What leads you to think your interpretation of "This Generation" fits the text better?

And WHICH text???

Somehow when Jesus said "This Generation" (speaking TO his disciples) it erroneously became "THAT Generation" (2000+ years AFTER his disciples....) so why bother telling the disciples if it didn't directly pertain to them?

BroRog
Jan 9th 2009, 02:42 PM
I guess the main difference would be that we view the context of "ISRAEL" differently.
I see Israel as ALL Believers.... not an ethnic group of people. Israel in context is "SPIRITUAL" Israel...... In fact, the NAME Israel is Spiritual.... especially in it's origin.

Israel was named after Jacob who wrestled with God.....
Gen 32:28 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Gen&c=32&v=25&t=KJV#comm/28) And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

Last question-
What leads you to think your interpretation of "This Generation" fits the text better?

And WHICH text???

Somehow when Jesus said "This Generation" (speaking TO his disciples) it erroneously became "THAT Generation" (2000+ years AFTER his disciples....) so why bother telling the disciples if it didn't directly pertain to them?

Why are you so focused on time? When God said that he would never again destroy the earth with a flood, his covenant with the earth is perpetual. No matter how much time passes, whether it be an hour or 2000 years the promise remains in force. Likewise, when Jesus says "this race will not pass away" it's perpetual too. No matter how much time passes after that, the world will always have Jews.

In the mean time, why not ask your boss about your "spiritual" paycheck. :)

mfowler12
Jan 9th 2009, 03:24 PM
And not to derail the O.P. here.... but a "New Temple"?
Jesus is NOT going to dwell in or reign from a rebuilt, future temple.

Sure, Jesus may or may not have said there would be or would not be another temple. Sure, He was talking about the new temple being His body. I agree with you.

However, no where does it say that He would end the earthly desires for temples. Just because Jesus said that we no longer need a temple to worship God doesn't mean Israel is going to pay attention to that because they deny Him as the Messiah.

Something or somebody has to sit in the Holy Land and proclaim him/herself god. People every day call themselves their own god but the Day of the Lord hasn't come yet. So, something must really catch His attention and bring wrath upon the world. What COULD it be?

My opinion, Israel is battling in a war it cannot win and is about to be wiped out completely. God, sees the destruction coming upon His city, Jerusalem, and He intervenes. This, being a miracle to Israel, have turned themselves back to God and begin following the Mosaic law. In order to follow the law, they will want a temple to offer up sacrifices to Him. In order for this to happen, they will need to reach some form of a peace agreement with the Muslim world that allows Israel to rebuild its temple on the original foundations of the first temple (since apparently they are finding these and they are not where the Muslim temple is). Then, we go from there.

Something has to arouse God to bring His wrath upon the earth. Something detestable like in the OT scriptures. Remember, God was always patient with Israel when they moved to worship other gods and He warned them and even allowed some wrath to open their eyes and then He forgave them and listened to them again. So, God is begin patient now. He is waiting for the Gospel to reach those who have yet to hear about it. What is going to arouse His anger and wrath?

Since you've derailed my thread, I would like to see some more comments on the time frame of a generation from you. If generation is not being used the same way as in previous scriptures, let us read from the original writings in Hebrew and Greek. Since I know neither, I'm depending on some scholars here to open this discussion up.

BroRog
Jan 9th 2009, 03:42 PM
Sure, Jesus may or may not have said there would be or would not be another temple. Sure, He was talking about the new temple being His body. I agree with you.

However, no where does it say that He would end the earthly desires for temples. Just because Jesus said that we no longer need a temple to worship God doesn't mean Israel is going to pay attention to that because they deny Him as the Messiah.

Something or somebody has to sit in the Holy Land and proclaim him/herself god. People every day call themselves their own god but the Day of the Lord hasn't come yet. So, something must really catch His attention and bring wrath upon the world. What COULD it be?

My opinion, Israel is battling in a war it cannot win and is about to be wiped out completely. God, sees the destruction coming upon His city, Jerusalem, and He intervenes. This, being a miracle to Israel, have turned themselves back to God and begin following the Mosaic law. In order to follow the law, they will want a temple to offer up sacrifices to Him. In order for this to happen, they will need to reach some form of a peace agreement with the Muslim world that allows Israel to rebuild its temple on the original foundations of the first temple (since apparently they are finding these and they are not where the Muslim temple is). Then, we go from there.

Something has to arouse God to bring His wrath upon the earth. Something detestable like in the OT scriptures. Remember, God was always patient with Israel when they moved to worship other gods and He warned them and even allowed some wrath to open their eyes and then He forgave them and listened to them again. So, God is begin patient now. He is waiting for the Gospel to reach those who have yet to hear about it. What is going to arouse His anger and wrath?

Since you've derailed my thread, I would like to see some more comments on the time frame of a generation from you. If generation is not being used the same way as in previous scriptures, let us read from the original writings in Hebrew and Greek. Since I know neither, I'm depending on some scholars here to open this discussion up.


Okay, if you want a number, a generation is 19 years.

mfowler12
Jan 9th 2009, 05:27 PM
Okay, if you want a number, a generation is 19 years.
Where is that in the bible?

BroRog
Jan 9th 2009, 06:24 PM
Where is that in the bible?
It's not in the Bible. I base my answer on a Steely Dan song called Hey 19, in which a middle aged man encounters the problems of living with a 19 year old girl. The lament of the man is the fact that she knows nothing about him or his culture because everything familiar to him comes from his generation, not her's.

:)

possumliving
Jan 15th 2009, 08:39 AM
I know most will say 40 or 70 years, but what does Genesis 15:12-16 say?



What are your thoughts? It appears to me that the Lord is telling Abram that his people, descendants, will be afflicted for 400 years and that this nation they serve (Egypt) will be judged (7 plagues) and they will come out of there will great possessions to a land (Israel) that the Lord has promised to Abram but cannot have yet because the iniquity of those who live there are is not yet fulfilled.

So, God is saying that a generation is 100 years, no?

(Thanks again David and quiet dove for your assistance in this discussion.)

Since the Lord has told Abram that a generation is 100 years, where do people come up with 40 and 70 year generations when talking about the Israel's most recent claim of God's holy land?

Now, for the end times connection. I think that when Jesus said that "this generation will not pass away," He was referring to the last generation of humans on earth prior to His second coming. Meaning, once we see the signs of His coming (the Fig Tree parable), we know that it is coming before we die. How does this fit into your end times opinion? Obviously people do not normally live to be 100 years old so do these passages connect with one another?

I used to question that as well. I wanted to know if the Amplified had interpreted it correctly.

This is what I learned.

Matt 24:34 Truly I tell you, this generation (the whole multitude of people living at the same time, in a definite, given period) will not pass away till all these things taken together take place.

I've got a set of New Century Dictionaries which was copyrighted before I was born (I'm 49). It has those long definitions. It agrees with the bolded part of the pasage above.

The second thing, I said well Lord, you taught me that the NT fulfills the OT and that they agree. Where in the OT does it show the same thing?

Ex 1:6 Then Joseph died, and all his brothers and all that generation.

Now, if you remember correctly, Joseph's brothers were old enough to go and kill some men when Joseph was young. There was quite an age gap between them.

I started asking the Lord, if that is so, then there should be a distinct generation among us, that has seen all these things come to pass. And there is!!!

The Baby Boomer Generation, which are still alive, but cover all the things that initially took place in 1948.

Now the interesting thing about this generation is that it wasn't just in the USA that we have a Baby Boomer Generation around the same time. Other nations recognize it as one too. So, worldwide, there is acknowledgement of this distinct generation.

Now, if you want to find out why the 1948?

May 14 - The Declaration of Independence of Israel is made.
March 8 - McCollum v. Board of Education: The United States Supreme Court rules that religious instruction in public schools violates the U.S. Constitution.
April 7 - The World Health Organization is established by the United Nations.
August 23 - The World Council of Churches is established.
December 10 - The United Nations General Assembly adopts the Universal Declaration of Human Rights

And a host of other important things happened but the most important is that it all takes place within this Baby Boomer Generation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_Boomer
One of the unique features of Boomers was that they tended to think of themselves as a special generation, very different from those that had come before. In the 1960s, as the relatively large numbers of young people became teenagers and young adults, they, and those around them, created a very specific rhetoric around their cohort, and the change they were bringing about.[10] This rhetoric had an important impact in the self perceptions of the boomers, as well as their tendency to define the world in terms of generations, which was a relatively new phenomenon.

The U.S. Census Bureau considers a baby boomer to be someone born during the demographic birth boom between 1946 and 1964. The Census Bureau is not involved in defining cultural generations. [11]

Doug Owram argues that the Canadian boom took place between 1946-62

Bernard Salt places the Australian baby boom between 1946 and 1961


I hope that helps to straighten it out for you. I'm a Baby Boomer and I expect that Jesus will return in my generation. I was born in 1959.

Steph

Ixthus
Jan 16th 2009, 02:23 PM
King David was born approximately 1,030 B.C., became King of Israel in 1,002 B.C., and he died in 962 B.C.. That of course is only 68 years but he is counted as two generations. The Exile to Babylon began in 721 B.C. and ended in 586 B.C.,

Jerusalem fell in 587 B.C. with 70,000 Jews sent into captivity. The Return from exile occurred in 539 B.C and that time until to Christ represents 587 years and would only calculate to 41.9 years per generation.

Since Hebrew Scholars believe Abraham to have been in Palestine in 1,900 B.C. around the age of 75, lets make an assumption that this 898 to 973 year range can be divided by 14 also to equate to an average of 64.1 to 69.5 years per generation.

So about 42-70 years according to this calculation

BroRog
Jan 16th 2009, 02:58 PM
Okay, here's my question. If Jesus actually meant, "the whole multitude of people living at the same time, in a definite, given period" will not passaway until all these things be fulfilled, Then how could anyone prove him wrong? How could anyone ever know whether the time was up? Babies are born everyday, people die everyday. What constitutes "the whole multitude"? And without a very accurate census, taken at the time of Jesus' statement, how would anyone hearing Jesus words know when THAT entire generation had passed away?

Do you see my problem with this interpretation? If no one can know the answer, then why did Jesus say it? Did Jesus intend to communicate something meaningful and helpful by his words or no?

IamBill
Jan 16th 2009, 04:30 PM
Do you see my problem with this interpretation? If no one can know the answer, then why did Jesus say it? Did Jesus intend to communicate something meaningful and helpful by his words or no?

:)

It is not nor ever was ours or theirs to know

I think Jesus gave the truth to a question he was not allowed to answer

possumliving
Jan 17th 2009, 06:31 AM
Okay, here's my question. If Jesus actually meant, "the whole multitude of people living at the same time, in a definite, given period" will not passaway until all these things be fulfilled, Then how could anyone prove him wrong? How could anyone ever know whether the time was up? Babies are born everyday, people die everyday. What constitutes "the whole multitude"? And without a very accurate census, taken at the time of Jesus' statement, how would anyone hearing Jesus words know when THAT entire generation had passed away?

Do you see my problem with this interpretation? If no one can know the answer, then why did Jesus say it? Did Jesus intend to communicate something meaningful and helpful by his words or no?

I see that you are still having a problem with it...I'm not. I think this is where the second part of that verse comes in.

Matt 24:34 Truly I tell you, this generation (the whole multitude of people living at the same time, in a definite, given period) will not pass away till all these things taken together take place.

All these things as in all of the prophesies about the end times and those things written prior to Matt 24:34 in that chapter. In other words, we (our generation) won't die out until all of those things spoken of in the end times prophecies have come to pass.

Steph

Eben
Jan 18th 2009, 04:40 PM
Hi there. Pardon me for jumping in from the side. I have been following this thread and would like to add my bit.
If we read Daniel 9:26-27:
Dan 9:26 And at the end of that time God's chosen leader will be killed unjustly. The city and the Temple will be destroyed by the invading army of a powerful ruler. The end will come like a flood, bringing the war and destruction which God has prepared.
Dan 9:27 That ruler will have a firm agreement with many people for seven years, and when half this time is past, he will put an end to sacrifices and offerings. The Awful Horror will be placed on the highest point of the Temple and will remain there until the one who put it there meets the end which God has prepared for him."
I think that most will agree that there is a two thousand year plus difference between the word ruler and the next sentence “ The end will come..” I mean Jerusalem and the temple was destroyed in about 75AD. But the ruler in verse 27 has not come forward as yet. Just read

2Th 2:4 He will oppose every so-called god or object of worship and will put himself above them all. He will even go in and sit down in God's Temple and claim to be God.
Or Revelation:
Rev 13:16 The beast forced all the people, small and great, rich and poor, slave and free, to have a mark placed on their right hands or on their foreheads.
Rev 13:17 No one could buy or sell without this mark, that is, the beast's name or the number that stands for the name.
These things have not happened as yet.

Also read Mat 10:23 Mat. 16: 27,28 Mat. 23:39 Mat. 24:34.
Especially Mat. 16 27 – 28 Jesus said that some of those standing there will not die until they see His coming.
Those standing there? Also the same as this generation. Now surely He has not come as yet, but surely those standing there have died.
The problem disappears when we realize that if the Jews as a nation accepted Jesus at that stage that is exactly what would have happened. It would have been the end. Jesus knew what was going to happen but could not tell them, He had to give them the choice. The nation made the wrong choice and then they crucified Jesus. Peter in Acts says:

Act 3:17 "And now, my friends, I know that what you and your leaders did to Jesus was due to your ignorance.
Act 3:18 God announced long ago through all the prophets that his Messiah had to suffer; and he made it come true in this way.
Act 3:19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that he will forgive your sins. If you do,
Act 3:20 times of spiritual strength will come from the Lord, and he will send Jesus, who is the Messiah he has already chosen for you.
Act 3:21 He must remain in heaven until the time comes for all things to be made new, as God announced through his holy prophets of long ago.
Act 3:22 For Moses said, 'The Lord your God will send you a prophet, just as he sent me, and he will be one of your own people. You are to obey everything that he tells you to do.
Act 3:23 Anyone who does not obey that prophet shall be separated from God's people and destroyed.'
Act 3:24 And all the prophets who had a message, including Samuel and those who came after him, also announced what has been happening these days.
Act 3:25 The promises of God through his prophets are for you, and you share in the covenant which God made with your ancestors. As he said to Abraham, 'Through your descendants I will bless all the people on earth.'
Act 3:26 And so God chose his Servant and sent him to you first, to bless you by making every one of you turn away from your wicked ways."

If they accepted Peter’s invitation then He would have come back as King. They did not and this is where the problem of “this generation” actually disappear, because when Israel rejected the Holy spirit when they stoned Stephen, God turned His back on them and they became Lo ammi which means “ not my people” That is why the prophetic clock is standing still and Daniels prophecy is not completed and there is still the last week to realize, which we know will be the seven years of tribulation. This is where the Gentiles become part of Gods plan. The period between the rejection of Israel and their acceptance again as Gods people. Read Romans 11
Rom 11:23 And if the Jews abandon their unbelief, they will be put back in the place where they were; for God is able to do that.
Rom 11:24 You Gentiles are like the branch of a wild olive tree that is broken off and then, contrary to nature, is joined to a cultivated olive tree. The Jews are like this cultivated tree; and it will be much easier for God to join these broken-off branches to their own tree again.
Rom 11:25 There is a secret truth, my friends, which I want you to know, for it will keep you from thinking how wise you are. It is that the stubbornness of the people of Israel is not permanent, but will last only until the complete number of Gentiles comes to God.
Rom 11:26 And this is how all Israel will be saved. As the scripture says, "The Savior will come from Zion and remove all wickedness from the descendants of Jacob.
Rom 11:27 I will make this covenant with them when I take away their sins."
Rom 11:28 Because they reject the Good News, the Jews are God's enemies for the sake of you Gentiles. But because of God's choice, they are his friends because of their ancestors.
Rom 11:29 For God does not change his mind about whom he chooses and blesses.

This period known as the period of grace will pass when Israel becomes Gods people again. That is why there are no Greek Jew or gentile etc. we are all one in Christ as long as we believe.
Also read Eph.

Eph 2:11 You Gentiles by birth---called "the uncircumcised" by the Jews, who call themselves the circumcised (which refers to what men do to their bodies)---remember what you were in the past.
Eph 2:12 At that time you were apart from Christ. You were foreigners and did not belong to God's chosen people. You had no part in the covenants, which were based on God's promises to his people, and you lived in this world without hope and without God.
Eph 2:13 But now, in union with Christ Jesus you, who used to be far away, have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
We must ask the question when this ” now” in Eph 2:13 occurred . The answer can be found in Acts 13.
Hope I did not upset anyone but this is just my opinion.
Eben

Psalms Fan
Jan 19th 2009, 05:31 PM
I think that the OP is fundamentally flawed. Nowhere does the Bible say that a generation lasts a certain amount of time. There is no such thing as a "biblical generation".

My grandfather is one generation. My father is one generation later. I am the next generation. My daughter is the one after me. I have first cousins who are young enough to be my children, yet we all have the same grandparents and are the same generation.

Basically, I think that the whole "how long is a generation" thing is a non-point, scripturally and prophetically speaking.

mfowler12
Jan 21st 2009, 07:32 PM
I think that the OP is fundamentally flawed. Nowhere does the Bible say that a generation lasts a certain amount of time. There is no such thing as a "biblical generation".

My grandfather is one generation. My father is one generation later. I am the next generation. My daughter is the one after me. I have first cousins who are young enough to be my children, yet we all have the same grandparents and are the same generation.

Basically, I think that the whole "how long is a generation" thing is a non-point, scripturally and prophetically speaking.
Why did Jesus mention it?

Psalms Fan
Jan 22nd 2009, 05:07 AM
Why did Jesus mention it?

I didn't say that the word generation isn't scriptural. I only said that nowhere does scripture define it as a certain length of time, as if a "biblical generation" is a specific period of time...day, month, year, decade, biblical generation, century, etc.

Yes, Jesus mentions the concept of a generation, but not in the sense of trying to say that a "generation" is a calculable and predictable length of time.

quiet dove
Jan 22nd 2009, 05:10 AM
Not to jump into the "how long is a generation" debate because I have no idea how long a generation is in terms of the life span of men. But I also am not sure that the term "generation" must in all cases be applied to the physical generation of a mans life span.

However, in the context of physical life span and generation, would this verse give any indication? Just asking as I have no idea.

Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years."

Most of us don't make it 120 years.

BroRog
Jan 22nd 2009, 05:29 AM
Not to jump into the "how long is a generation" debate because I have no idea how long a generation is in terms of the life span of men. But I also am not sure that the term "generation" must in all cases be applied to the physical generation of a mans life span.

However, in the context of physical life span and generation, would this verse give any indication? Just asking as I have no idea.

Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years."

Most of us don't make it 120 years.

That comes very close to the OP, in which the 430 years in Egypt was divided by 4. Perhaps a "generation", at that point in history, represented the average length of time a patriarch acted as the "father" of the family.

quiet dove
Jan 22nd 2009, 11:22 PM
That comes very close to the OP, in which the 430 years in Egypt was divided by 4. Perhaps a "generation", at that point in history, represented the average length of time a patriarch acted as the "father" of the family.


So we agree, neither one of us knows.....:lol:

BroRog
Jan 23rd 2009, 02:44 PM
So we agree, neither one of us knows.....:lol:

Well . . . . ;)

I don't blame people for anticipating the return of Jesus. But I wonder what people would do with the information if they actually knew the duration of a generation? Does Jesus tell us when the clock starts?

mfowler12
Jan 23rd 2009, 04:14 PM
I don't think it does. My original post was about how the Lord told Abraham that a four generation was 400 years puzzles me why people think a generation is 40, 70, 100, or even 120 as QD states.

However, Jesus said that "this generation will not pass away" so there must be some importance to that. Do I think we are the generation or do I think the "baby boomers" are the generation, I don't know. I see it as a length of time, since generation in Genesis was a time period and I also see it as a collection of people that is alive when something happens.

possumliving
Jan 24th 2009, 12:00 AM
Except for just a few verses the word generation in the Greek is defined:

#1074 genea- from (a presumed derivitive of) #1085; a generation; by implication an age (the period or persons):--age, generation, nation, time.

Which is a whole lot different when Jesus called them a generation of vipers. There it is #1081 gennema from #1080; offspring; by analogy produce (literally or figuratively): -- fruit, generation.

Steph

mfowler12
Jan 24th 2009, 04:16 AM
Except for just a few verses the word generation in the Greek is defined:

#1074 genea- from (a presumed derivitive of) #1085; a generation; by implication an age (the period or persons):--age, generation, nation, time.

Which is a whole lot different when Jesus called them a generation of vipers. There it is #1081 gennema from #1080; offspring; by analogy produce (literally or figuratively): -- fruit, generation.

Steph
Ah, yes! Somebody who has provided the greek definitions, thank you. That sheds light on BroRog's posts.

Which one was used when Jesus was talking about the end of the age?

David2
Jan 24th 2009, 04:44 AM
Let me rephrase:
1. The prediction in Matt. 24:32-35 includes the ingathering of the elect (Matt. 24:31), the coming of the Son of man from heaven (Matt. 24:30).

2. The main topic of Matt. 24:32-35 was to say that all these tings would happen soon. ("you know that summer is near" - v. 32; "near, at the very doors" - v. 33).

3. Whatever our interpretation of 24:34, it has to be an explanation or emphases on the nearness of the return of Christ.

4. To say that the generation is the nation of Israel or all of as that are even living today says nothing about the nearness of the coming and is not the meaning of the generation. It can also not be a period of time at the end of the days.

5. The only logical meaning of "generation" was referring to the people then living and listening to Him. Thus, the Lord said that His return and the coming of the kingdom would have been soon, in the time that most of them were still living.

6. The statement in verse 34 in the Greek is clearly a conditional statement ("an" with the optative), meaning that Christ would have come within their lifetime if the condition had been met. We find the condition in many parts of the gospel and again repeated in Acts, 3:19-25.

7. This is not a strange statement at all. In fact, right through the OT the coming of the kingdom was linked to the first and only coming of the King. The OT did not differentiate between the first and the second coming. By the time of Matt. 24, the King came and on the grounds of prophecy they expected the kingdom immediately. Now Christ said: "Fine, this could very well be the case, but then Israel had to repent first, which they didn't do (Acts. 3:19-25).

possumliving
Jan 24th 2009, 07:07 AM
Ah, yes! Somebody who has provided the greek definitions, thank you. That sheds light on BroRog's posts.

Which one was used when Jesus was talking about the end of the age?

This one:

#1074 genea- from (a presumed derivitive of) #1085; a generation; by implication an age (the period or persons):--age, generation, nation, time.

Steph

possumliving
Jan 24th 2009, 07:20 AM
I don't think it does. My original post was about how the Lord told Abraham that a four generation was 400 years puzzles me why people think a generation is 40, 70, 100, or even 120 as QD states.

However, Jesus said that "this generation will not pass away" so there must be some importance to that. Do I think we are the generation or do I think the "baby boomers" are the generation, I don't know. I see it as a length of time, since generation in Genesis was a time period and I also see it as a collection of people that is alive when something happens.

Considering that the people in the last days are supposed to be more wicked and sin is to abound think about this...

Prov 10:27 The reverent {and} worshipful fear of the Lord prolongs one's days, but the years of the wicked shall be made short.

So the lives of people are shorter in our day and time because of the wickedness of the people.

Steph