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Walstib
Jan 7th 2009, 03:40 PM
Is this needed after justification and regeneration? Why or why not?

faithfulfriend
Jan 7th 2009, 03:44 PM
Is this needed after justification and regeneration? Why or why not?

Yes: This is just one of many verses:

"Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear" (Hebrews 12:28)

grit
Jan 7th 2009, 03:52 PM
hmmm.... that word is used quite a number of different ways in most English Bibles...

I'd say it certainly is evidenced as an understandable condition whenever even the regenerate are confronted with some manifestation of the glory of God. I think there are some beneficial uses of it, even when considering that, "There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear." (1 John 4:18, ESV)

Brother Mark
Jan 7th 2009, 03:58 PM
I think so. Jesus told Peter and the other disciples "Fear Him...". There is a proper fear of God that only grows, the more we know him, IMO.

Firstfruits
Jan 7th 2009, 04:25 PM
Is this needed after justification and regeneration? Why or why not?

I hope this helps.

2 Cor 7:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Firstfruits

kenrank
Jan 7th 2009, 09:49 PM
Is this needed after justification and regeneration? Why or why not?

I would say so, the line "fear God" is found 9 times in the NT after the gospels. The word translated as fear, can mean: frightened, in awe, or in reverence. I think it healthy to say all three together fit nicely.

Peace.
Ken

Partaker of Christ
Jan 7th 2009, 10:03 PM
If it would help, we need to define 'fear'
The only fear (IMHO) should be a reverence, for God has not given us a Spirit of fear, but of love, power and a sound mind.
My view is, that if we feel we are being led by fear (other then reverence) then we are not being led by the Spirit.

This is a page from Vine:

Fear, Fearful, Fearfulness

A. Nouns.
1. phobos (G5401) first had the meaning of "flight," that which is caused by being scared; then, "that which may cause flight," (a) "fear, dread, terror," always with this significance in the four Gospels; also e.g., in Act_2:43; Act_19:17; 1Co_2:3; 1Ti_5:20 (lit., "may have fear"); Heb_2:15; 1Jo_4:18; Rev_11:11; Rev_18:10, Rev_18:15; by metonymy, that which causes "fear," Rom_13:3; 1Pe_3:14, RV, "(their) fear," KJV "(their) terror," an adaptation of the Sept. of Isa_8:12, "fear not their fear"; hence some take it to mean, as there, "what they fear," but in view of Mat_10:28, e.g., it seems best to understand it as that which is caused by the intimidation of adversaries; (b) "reverential fear," (1) of God, as a controlling motive of the life, in matters spiritual and moral, not a mere "fear" of His power and righteous retribution, but a wholesome dread of displeasing Him, a "fear" which banishes the terror that shrinks from His presence, Rom_8:15, and which influences the disposition and attitude of one whose circumstances are guided by trust in God, through the indwelling Spirit of God, Act_9:31; Rom_3:18; 2Co_7:1; Eph_5:21 (RV, "the fear of Christ"); Phi_2:12; 1Pe_1:17 (a comprehensive phrase: the reverential "fear" of God will inspire a constant carefulness in dealing with others in His "fear"); 1Pe_3:2, 1Pe_3:15; the association of "fear and trembling," as, e.g., in Phi_2:12, has in the Sept. a much sterner import, e.g., Gen_9:2; Exo_15:16; Deu_2:25; Deu_11:25; Psa_55:5; Isa_19:16; (2) of superiors, e.g., Rom_13:7; 1Pe_2:18. See TERROR.

2. deilia (G1167), "fearfulness" (from deos, "fright"), is rightly rendered "fearfulness" in 2Ti_1:7, RV (for KJV, "fear "). That spirit is not given us of God. The word denotes "cowardice and timidity" and is never used in a good sense, as No. 1 is. Cf. deilos, B, No. 2, below, and deiliao, to be fearful (KJV, "afraid"), Joh_14:27.

3. eulabeia (G2124) signifies, firstly, "caution"; then, "reverence, godly fear," Heb_5:7; Heb_12:28, in best mss., "reverence"; in general, "apprehension, but especially holy fear," "that mingled fear and love which, combined, constitute the piety of man toward God; the OT places its emphasis on the fear, the NT...on the love, though there was love in the fear of God's saints then, as there must be fear in their love now" (Trench, Syn. Sec.xlviii). In the Sept., Jos_22:24; Pro_28:14.

Note: In Luk_21:11, phobetron (akin to No. 1) denotes a terror, RV, "terrors," for KJV, "fearful sights," i.e., objects or instruments of terror.

B. Adjectives.
1. phoberos (G5398), "fearful" (akin to A, No. 1), is used only in the active sense in the NT, i.e., causing "fear," terrible, Heb_10:27, Heb_10:31; Heb_12:21, RV, "fearful," for KJV, "terrible."

2. deilos (G1169), "cowardly" (see A, No. 2), "timid," is used in Mat_8:26; Mar_4:40; Rev_21:8 (here "the fearful" are first in the list of the transgressors).

3. ekphobos (G1630), signifies "frightened outright" (ek, "out," intensive, and A, No. 1), Heb_12:21 (with eimi, "I am"), "I exceedingly fear" (see No. 4); Mar_9:6, "sore afraid."

4. entromos (G1790), "trembling with fear" (en, "in," intensive, and tremo, "to tremble, quake"; Eng., "tremor," etc.), is used with ginomai, "to become," in Act_7:32, "trembled"; Act_16:29, RV, "trembling for fear"; with eimi, "to be," in Heb_12:21, "quake" (some mss. have ektromos here). See QUAKE, TREMBLE.The distinction between No. 3 and No. 4, as in Heb_12:21, would seem to be that ekphobos stresses the intensity of the "fear," entromos the inward effect, "I inwardly tremble (or quake)."
C. Adverb.
aphobos (G880) denotes "without fear" (a, negative, and A, No. 1), and is said of serving the Lord, Luk_1:74; of being among the Lord's people as His servant, 1Co_16:10; of ministering the Word of God, Phi_1:14; of the evil of false spiritual shepherds, Jud_1:12. In the Sept., Pro_1:33.

D. Verbs.
1. phobeo (G5399), in earlier Greek, "to put to flight" (see A, No. 1), in the NT is always in the passive voice, with the meanings either (a) "to fear, be afraid," its most frequent use, e.g., Act_23:10, according to the best mss. (see No. 2); or (b) "to show reverential fear" [see A, No. 1, (b)], (1) of men, Mar_6:20; Eph_5:33, RV, "fear," for KJV, "reverence"; (2) of God, e.g., Act_10:2, Act_10:22; Act_13:16, Act_13:26; Col_3:22 (RV, "the Lord "); 1Pe_2:17; Rev_14:7; Rev_15:4; Rev_19:5; (a) and (b) are combined in Luk_12:4, Luk_12:5, where Christ warns His followers not to be afraid of men, but to "fear" God. See MARVEL, B, No. 1, Note.

2. eulbeomai (G2125), "to be cautious, to beware" (see A, No. 3), signifies to act with the reverence produced by holy "fear," Heb_11:7, "moved with godly fear."
Notes: (1) In Act_23:10 some mss. have this verb with the meaning (a) under No. 1.
(2) In Luk_3:14, diaseio, "to shake violently, to intimidate, to extort by violence, blackmail," is rendered "put no man in fear" in KJV marg. See VIOLENCE.

Walstib
Jan 7th 2009, 10:59 PM
If it would help, we need to define 'fear'
The only fear (IMHO) should be a reverence, for God has not given us a Spirit of fear, but of love, power and a sound mind.
My view is, that if we feel we are being led by fear (other then reverence) then we are not being led by the Spirit.

Hi,

Would you say then the verse faithfulfriend posted is redundant? ...Reverance and Godly reverence?

Would you translate it differently?

I can't shake this notion that I need to be more fearful, past a reverence sort of context.

Peace,
Joe

Brother Mark
Jan 7th 2009, 11:01 PM
Would you say then the verse faithfulfriend posted is redundant? ...Reverance and Godly reverence?

Would you translate it differently?

I can't shake this notion that I need to be more fearful, past a reverence sort of context.

Peace,
Joe

Hey Joe. Partaker did some good research for us. In the new testament, when Jesus told us to "Fear Him" he used the Greek word for phobia. That's a pretty strong fear and IMO, goes beyond reverence.

I think you are on to something.

Grace and peace,

Mark

kenrank
Jan 7th 2009, 11:40 PM
Hey Joe. Partaker did some good research for us. In the new testament, when Jesus told us to "Fear Him" he used the Greek word for phobia. That's a pretty strong fear and IMO, goes beyond reverence.

I think you are on to something.

Grace and peace,

Mark

Ya know, it is almost silly to think about. Who are we as compared to God? He holds ALL the cards, is the giver of life, grace, and salvation. While we are members of his household, as far as LIFE goes...we are less compared to him then ants are to us. How can you not have a healthy fear? Don't misunderstand, I am not saying we are nothing to him...far from it.

Peace.
Ken

Partaker of Christ
Jan 8th 2009, 12:48 AM
Hi,

Would you say then the verse faithfulfriend posted is redundant? ...Reverance and Godly reverence?

Would you translate it differently?

I can't shake this notion that I need to be more fearful, past a reverence sort of context.

Peace,
Joe

Hi Joe!

It may be my age, but I often cringe when I hear some believers talk to God, or about God, as though He were some sort of buddy, or some dude.

Then there are others who suffer from 'Theophobia' Ė the fear of God. It means "a morbid fear of God".

I read a short message from someone called Chip Brogden, on this subject.

He brings us back to the garden of Eden, were Adam and Eve had just sinned.

(Gen. 3:10) "I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself"

Since God has not given us a spirit of fear, but Love, Power and a Sound Mind, if we are led by the Spirit, we are not led by fear (fright, dread, terror, cowardice or timidity)

If the motive to please God, in our worship, work, relationship etc, is to appease our fears, then we have a religion.

Paul says that whatsoever we do it has to be done from LOVE. Without love, it is empty and meaningless.

Like Ken said, there is a healthy fear.
If I have no fear when I drive my car, I am heading for trouble, but that fear should not be a phobia, for then I would not drive.

I will say this, if we know God's love for us, then all that we do will be from out of love. If we don't know God's love for us, then we will cling to the ROCK, rather then stand firm on the ROCK.

Walstib
Jan 8th 2009, 01:45 PM
HI,
It may be my age, but I often cringe when I hear some believers talk to God, or about God, as though He were some sort of buddy, or some dude. Jesus as well as the Father?
Then there are others who suffer from 'Theophobia' – the fear of God. It means "a morbid fear of God". This to me would be an emotional kind of fear… I was purposeful in my wording to not say “I feel like I should fear God”. That said I am still trying to figure out what that means…

I would say there is another type of phobia for believers—the fear of fearing God. Like it would mean they are not truly trusting God if they fear Him. Just does not sit right in me right now. That is the place I was I think.
(Gen. 3:10) "I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself" Frightened is definitely not the context I am considering.
Since God has not given us a spirit of fear, but Love, Power and a Sound Mind, if we are led by the Spirit, we are not led by fear (fright, dread, terror, cowardice or timidity) With, I think, the context of the verse speaking toward a boldness to witness without fear of persecution, I don’t see how this verse would be a good one to really speak of a fear of God. I would say the only, and I mean only, fear that would have any relevance to us would be the fear of God Himself.
If the motive to please God, in our worship, work, relationship etc, is to appease our fears, then we have a religion. These would be appeasing the fear of things, no? The more time I spend worried and fearful about what I need the less time I can spend listening to what He would have me do for Him. In Mat 10 we see Jesus telling us to fear God, and to not fear, all the same root word.

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father's will. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows. (Mat 10:28-31 NKJV)

Thinking I’m not sure a healthy fear of the Father appeases something, but rather would increase as we grow in our relationship with Him. I'm not sure the motivation of works comes into what I am attempting to qualify.
Paul says that whatsoever we do it has to be done from LOVE. Without love, it is empty and meaningless. Yes, and He also in many places qualifies the importance of fearing God. Both have to be available without one canceling out the other I think. Like…

If the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, and say love is the end of wisdom, to have all wisdom we need fear and love in harmony. I don’t think the opposite of love is fear, but is hate. I think part of this discussion involves people seeing fear as the opposite of love.
Like Ken said, there is a healthy fear. If I have no fear when I drive my car, I am heading for trouble, but that fear should not be a phobia, for then I would not drive.Well healthy fear is still fear right? Here we get into definitions again. It’s not a reverence for your car is it? *forgive me the leading questions*
I will say this, if we know God's love for us, then all that we do will be from out of love. If we don't know God's love for us, then we will cling to the ROCK, rather then stand firm on the ROCK. A nice saying for sure. Does not prevent fear from being in a healthy relationship while standing I think.

Thanks for the good things to consider, I’m just working out my salvation in fear and trembling here I think, figuring out what it means if I can.

Peace,
Joe

kenrank
Jan 8th 2009, 02:01 PM
Frightened is definitely not the context I am considering.

I don't know how old they are or how many kids you have, but you surely have been around others who have children over 4 or 5 and younger than their early teens. What do we see in THEM when they have a loving Father who is strict (out of love) in the way he raises them?

I see it in my daughters eye, and am starting to in my son. (she 9 he 5) There is an absolute uninhibited love that they have for me. Yet, when they do something that displeases me, they have a fear of me. Not that I beat them or anything crazy like that, but that they know they have let me down. They know I will be upset, I might send them to their room, give them a swat on the butt, or worse...give them a dreaded lecture. Never is there a fear in them that I will cease to love them, for they know I always will no matter what they do.

I think our fear of God is or should be in this vein. He is our Father, we are his children. There are many similarities between how we are to act and walk according to God's will and the fear we have of him.....and how our own children act and walk in our will and have a fear of us. It is a reverent fear, a respectful fear....a fear that allows us to submit to his authority as our own children submit to ours.

Peace.
Ken

Just_Another_Guy
Jan 8th 2009, 02:24 PM
Is this needed after justification and regeneration? Why or why not?

Luke 1:72-75
To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; The oath which he sware to our father Abraham, That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.


I think it's needed only before hand. I don't think that there will be fear after justification. Think about it from the perspective of the Garden of Eden. There was no fear of God that Adam and Eve had, fear only came into play after disobedience. Where there is no disobedience, there should be no fear. Thus as his spirit is working through us within this life, there should be a gradual dissipatation of the fears that we once had..as God does not give a spirit of timidity, but of power and courage.

That being said, we're still in the flesh..and at times being human we might be subject to feeling irrational fears. Doesn't mean one isn't walking in the spirit, as many times there is a trembling fear that one may have, knowing that the spirit is working through them. This is not a bad thing, as it keeps the flesh into submission under the spirt as God is sanctifying a believer.

Just_Another_Guy
Jan 8th 2009, 02:39 PM
Hi Joe!

It may be my age, but I often cringe when I hear some believers talk to God, or about God, as though He were some sort of buddy, or some dude.


You know I used to think the same thing, but I think that ideally we should gradually get into the mode of thinking of God as a friend and "mighty counselor" whom we can come to with all of our problems. God called Abraham a friend, thus I do not think it is wrong to want to establish a friendship with God...we just have to pray that it is God who motivates us in the right spirit each time we approach him.

Walstib
Jan 8th 2009, 02:44 PM
HI Ken,

Thanks for participating.
I don't know how old they are or how many kids you have, but you surely have been around others who have children over 4 or 5 and younger than their early teens. What do we see in THEM when they have a loving Father who is strict (out of love) in the way he raises them? My daughter is only 6 months old so I am not there in personal experience yet. Though my days of a boy scout leader I had control of many 10-13 year olds not my own. From this I know there way a greater respect when there were consequences and I did not do nothing when they pushed their limits. The order was greater and more was accomplished when they were under the fear of my discipline. Or one of my lectures. :P
I see it in my daughters eye, and am starting to in my son. (she 9 he 5) There is an absolute uninhibited love that they have for me. Yet, when they do something that displeases me, they have a fear of me. Not that I beat them or anything crazy like that, but that they know they have let me down. They know I will be upset, I might send them to their room, give them a swat on the butt, or worse...give them a dreaded lecture. Never is there a fear in them that I will cease to love them, for they know I always will no matter what they do. This aspect is definitely one I was considering. If I am in a place that I do not care to avoid our heavenly Fatherís discipline, in belief that He will forgive/has already forgiven me anyway, I donít think it is healthy. Like said above much more is accomplished, or I can be a better instrument for God, the less time I am spending being disciplined by Him.
I think our fear of God is or should be in this vein. He is our Father, we are his children. There are many similarities between how we are to act and walk according to God's will and the fear we have of him.....and how our own children act and walk in our will and have a fear of us. It is a reverent fear, a respectful fear....a fear that allows us to submit to his authority as our own children submit to ours.Agree in many ways. This speaking toward how fear can still be a healthy motivation I think. Asking my wife this morning she remembered this verse.

The fear of the Lord is to hate evil; Pride and arrogance and the evil way And the perverse mouth I hate.(Pro 8:13 NKJV)

In a way I think fear of God is an agreement that sin is sinful, leading to a desire to avoid sin, all within the love of God.

Peace,
Joe

Brother Mark
Jan 8th 2009, 06:56 PM
The fear of the Lord is to hate evil; Pride and arrogance and the evil way And the perverse mouth I hate.(Pro 8:13 NKJV)

In a way I think fear of God is an agreement that sin is sinful, leading to a desire to avoid sin, all within the love of God.

Peace,
Joe

I was going to quote this verse and then I read your post and saw it already there. Think of it this way...

When I was a child, I loved my dad and went to him for a lot of protection and help. He loved me and I knew that. He wanted many good things for me and I knew that. But I was afraid to disobey him! There was no doubt that I was safe in his arms, that he loved me, that he wanted good things for me, that he would comfort me, teach me, train me, play with me, etc. Yet, none of that erased the fact that if I disobeyed him, he would chastise me.

I see it much the same with God the Father. He will discipline me and his discipline is painful. I fear that! He raised up the Babylonians to chastise Israel. Though in his patience, he waited over 490 years (7 x 70 years from which I think Jesus got his 7x70 from) before he moved. He preached and warned and still they disobeyed. The babylonian exile was not a pleasant experience for Israel.

So the fear of the Lord is to hate evil. Here's another verse.

Prov 16:6
6 By lovingkindness and truth iniquity is atoned for,
And by the fear of the Lord one keeps away from evil.
NASB

This verse keeps with the new testament teaching that "The kindness of the Lord leads us to repentance". Lovingkindness and truth atone for sin. When a man is deep in sin, often he needs to believe God will be merciful. Nineveh repented though the message was harsh. But what really led to their repentance was the hope in God's mercy.

Jonah 3:6-9
7 And he issued a proclamation and it said, "In Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles: Do not let man, beast, herd, or flock taste a thing. Do not let them eat or drink water. 8 "But both man and beast must be covered with sackcloth; and let men call on God earnestly that each may turn from his wicked way and from the violence which is in his hands. 9 "Who knows, God may turn and relent, and withdraw His burning anger so that we shall not perish?"
NASB

Without the hope of mercy, he would not have repented.

So we preach the fear of the Lord to those who are not sinning in order to keep them from sin. And we need to preach the kindness of the Lord to those who are under deep conviction, that they might repent and come to know his mercy. Sometimes, we preach as Jonah did but God, in his wisdom, preaches mercy to the hearer.

Personally, I have no issue with people seeing God as their friend, for Jesus is our friend. Also, there is a friend that sticks closer than a brother. Friend is a covenant term and it means a lot more than we take it to mean today. On the other hand, it is best that we don't move into presumption with the Lord. He is God and he is to be both loved and feared.

One last word... we don't fear God as we do a tyrant. But, IMO, it is far more than simple reverence.

TexasBeliever
Jan 8th 2009, 07:35 PM
I think so. Jesus told Peter and the other disciples "Fear Him...". There is a proper fear of God that only grows, the more we know him, IMO.

I agree. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Even John, the disciple whom the Lord loved, fell down in fear of Him in his visions.
Even though the Lord loves us and gave Himself for us, I still see His other side: The Almighty. Creator of the Universe. The Perfect. The Holy. The Allseeing. The Judge of the Living and the Dead.
How can you not have a healthy fear/respect for that?

The Parson
Jan 8th 2009, 07:38 PM
My old adage was "Have a healthy fear of God". What would you all say a HEALTHY fear would be???

Brother Mark
Jan 8th 2009, 07:56 PM
My old adage was "Have a healthy fear of God". What would you all say a HEALTHY fear would be???

An unhealthy fear is one where I fear God like I would fear Hitler. God really does love me and that should always play a role in my feelings towards God.

A healthy fear of God is much like what I wrote about how as a child, I was afraid to disobey my dad even though I rested completely in his provision and love for me.

We don't fear God like we would a tyrant. Lord knows I did that often enough. Instead, we fear God because of his awesomeness, who he is, and most importantly, we fear losing intimacy with Him.

I suppose to sum it up it's like this... a healthy fear of God will drive you to Him. An unhealthy fear of God will drive you away from Him.

keck553
Jan 8th 2009, 07:56 PM
My old adage was "Have a healthy fear of God". What would you all say a HEALTHY fear would be???

Obedience.
......

TexasBeliever
Jan 8th 2009, 08:01 PM
The same kind I had for my earthly father; don't do anything on purpose to get him mad at you and don't do anything disrespectful, and for two reasons: #1 fear of his wrath and #2 because I loved and respected him and didn't WANT to do anything that caused him grief.

The Parson
Jan 8th 2009, 08:04 PM
And I haven't seen a wrong answer to my question yet... And then why is it that fearing God in such a way has escaped being preached like it used to be?

Emanate
Jan 8th 2009, 08:05 PM
My old adage was "Have a healthy fear of God". What would you all say a HEALTHY fear would be???


I like this one:

Ecclesiastes 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

The Parson
Jan 8th 2009, 08:08 PM
I like this one:

Ecclesiastes 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.Wonderful reference and Glory to God. I was gonna rep you on this one but BF wouldn't allow another rep yet.

TexasBeliever
Jan 8th 2009, 10:32 PM
And I haven't seen a wrong answer to my question yet... And then why is it that fearing God in such a way has escaped being preached like it used to be?

I think it's because the way of the world has infiltrated the churches. Our society as a whole no longer considers the notion of sin and with no sin, there is no consideration of offense against God. If the world had these things in mind, the fear of God would also be present.

Brother Mark
Jan 8th 2009, 10:42 PM
And I haven't seen a wrong answer to my question yet... And then why is it that fearing God in such a way has escaped being preached like it used to be?

I think that is an interesting question. Part of the answer, and I think there may be many answers, is that there was a time when the love of God was not preached appropriately. As a result, many got a wrong fear of the Lord. When that generation grew up, they preached the love of God. Having had a bad view of fear, the meaning was changed.

People are often like Peter. We are what I call ditchers. Jesus wanted to wash Peter's feet and he said no. Jesus then said "You have no part of me" and Peter responded "Then wash all of me". LOL! Peter went from one ditch (NO) to another ditch (ALL). Jesus response was to wash only Peter's feet. Jesus is very balanced because he is healthy in his soul, body and Spirit.

I think the lack of proper preaching on fear is because we had a lack of proper preaching on love years ago. It is only through Jesus that we learn proper spiritual balance.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 8th 2009, 11:32 PM
And I haven't seen a wrong answer to my question yet... And then why is it that fearing God in such a way has escaped being preached like it used to be?

Hi Parson!

If we are preaching to the Jews, do we need to preach about fearing God. They know about who this One God is, what sin and death is, curse and blessing, heaven and hell etc: So would we be preaching to the converted (so to speak)?
Is not the problem for the Jews, that they have stumbled over the stumbling block?

If we are preaching to the Greeks, should we be preaching about sin, and fearing the One True God?
Is not the gospel for the Greeks foolishness. For if we preach that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, they would say 'which one'

Act 17:22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
Act 17:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Act 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Jerome1
Jan 8th 2009, 11:59 PM
Is this needed after justification and regeneration? Why or why not?

I'm sure the fear of the Lord can develop in some people, and it is a wonderful gift. As far back as i can remember i have always been terrified of God.

Proverbs9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and the knowledge of the Holy One is insight.

Brother Mark
Jan 9th 2009, 12:32 AM
Someone once told me....

Fear God and you will fear nothing else. Don't fear God, and you will fear many things.

That has sure been true in my life. One other thing... We have all heard about how Abraham offered his son Isaac to God and how great was his faith. But God told him this..."Now that I see that you fear me..." Abraham had a proper fear of God. Was faith involved? Yes. But what also moved God was Abraham's fear. It moved God so much, that from God's heart, he spoke to Abraham about his healthy fear.

itzme
Jan 9th 2009, 11:32 AM
I spent many years struggling with my Christian walk, mostly because when temptation came I gave in without much of a struggle. It was only the first time when I knew God was chastening me that I started to fear him, and that fear was the prod was the first time I really obeyed him and I really started to grow.

There are layers to obedience, for the most part we can say "I l love God, therefore I will do the right thing"....but for me at least the final fallback after all the obedience for love's sake is whoops I better not do that....and that comes from fearing God and remembering what happened in the past when I did go my own way.

I was a very traumatic time, you can look up my past posts and see my angst over the past year. I am not terrified, its just remembering the past I desist knowing that God is one who cannot be trifled with.

Rhyfelwr
Jan 9th 2009, 12:05 PM
If I could be a perfect Christian, I would have nothing to fear. But I fail God every day, I'm not selfless, I know I can be lazy, I could think up a pretty big list of things I do wrong.

But over time I can see God's reforming me, and it wouldn't be done unless he kept me in check. Until I can be a perfect Christian (which is impossible I would think) I'll always fear what God does to put me back on track - but I'm still glad knowing it's for my own good.

Friend of I AM
Jan 9th 2009, 03:17 PM
I often find that fear draws out more disobedience and resentment than anything else. Not to say that it isn't somewhat present in believers before justification, but I don't think it should be present after it.

I often think of Jacob, who showed no fear of God when the angel stood before him. Not saying that we should all follow Jacobs example, just demonstrating that fear doesn't always draw us closer to God..if anything..I find it often pushes us away.

pc_benz
Jan 9th 2009, 08:38 PM
Let me give an earthly example of a healthy fear of God. I used to be a skydive instructor and would tell my students "fear is your friend." What I meant by that is this. A healthy fear will make you check your equipment before jumping. A healthy fear will make you check your equipment right before jumping out at 13000 feet. And a healthy fear will make you pull your parachute with enough altitude to deal with any problems.

In short a healthy fear is your friend and will save your life, here on the earth (extreme activities) and the life to come (eternal life).

We would all be wise to stand up and warn all to have a fear of the God of Israsel, because He is worthy to be feared. Only in Christ can we feel safe from the terror of the Lord.

TexasBeliever
Jan 9th 2009, 10:39 PM
Let me give an earthly example of a healthy fear of God. I used to be a skydive instructor and would tell my students "fear is your friend." What I meant by that is this. A healthy fear will make you check your equipment before jumping. A healthy fear will make you check your equipment right before jumping out at 13000 feet. And a healthy fear will make you pull your parachute with enough altitude to deal with any problems.

In short a healthy fear is your friend and will save your life, here on the earth (extreme activities) and the life to come (eternal life).

We would all be wise to stand up and warn all to have a fear of the God of Israsel, because He is worthy to be feared. Only in Christ can we feel safe from the terror of the Lord.

That was very, very well said.

keck553
Jan 9th 2009, 10:48 PM
Let me give an earthly example of a healthy fear of God. I used to be a skydive instructor and would tell my students "fear is your friend." What I meant by that is this. A healthy fear will make you check your equipment before jumping. A healthy fear will make you check your equipment right before jumping out at 13000 feet. And a healthy fear will make you pull your parachute with enough altitude to deal with any problems.

In short a healthy fear is your friend and will save your life, here on the earth (extreme activities) and the life to come (eternal life).

We would all be wise to stand up and warn all to have a fear of the God of Israsel, because He is worthy to be feared. Only in Christ can we feel safe from the terror of the Lord.

well said.

(Deu 30:19) "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

keck553
Jan 9th 2009, 10:52 PM
Anyway, I might as well throw in my two cents...

"Praise Adonai!" Blessed is the man who fears Adonai, who delights greatly in His Torah." - Psalm 112:1

"By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His Torah. And His commandments are not burdensome." - 1 John 5:23

There is a relationship between fearing God and keeping His commandments, which the Apostolic Scriptures have not changed.
Perhaps the whole failure here is a misunderstanding of the term 'fear' in Biblical application.

Fear is a most motivating force for all of us. It can strike us and cause us to be frozen in terror, or it can instantly cause us to flee in response to a physical threat. In all regards, fear is something that motivates or makes us ACT in certain ways.

Think about some earthly things or circumstances that have caused fear in your life in the past. The skydiving post above is a stark example.

Most often the Hebrew word used for fear in the Bible is 'yare' (Yod-Resh-Aleph). While "yare' is used to describe and emotional response, often in relation to God it is used as a motivation for certain actions. Hebrew letters were originally pictures, yes? The picture of "Yod" is that of a hand (of God). Resh is a head, or chief. Aleph, being the first letter, represents God Almighty. So then the picture of 'yare' shows the hand of God upon man's head, bringing him under His authority. Scripture tells us not to 'yare' man. Now we know why.

But to detail the relationship between fear of God and His commands (or requirements), I refer to these Scriptures:

(Gen 3:9) Then the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, "Where are you?"
(Gen 3:10) He said, "I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid (yare) because I was naked; so I hid myself."
(Gen 3:11) And He said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?"

then

(Exo 1:15) Then the king of Egypt spoke to the Hebrew midwives, one of whom was named Shiphrah and the other was named Puah;
(Exo 1:16) and he said, "When you are helping the Hebrew women to give birth and see them upon the birthstool, if it is a son, then you shall put him to death; but if it is a daughter, then she shall live."
(Exo 1:17) But the midwives feared (yare) God, and did not do as the king of Egypt had commanded them, but let the boys live.

(Psa 86:11) Teach me Your way, O LORD; I will walk in Your truth; Unite my heart to fear (yare) Your name.

(Psa 112:1) Praise the LORD! How blessed is the man who fears (yare) the LORD, Who greatly delights in His commandments.

(Mat 1:18) Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit.
(Mat 1:19) And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man and not wanting to disgrace her, planned to send her away secretly.
(Mat 1:20) But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.

Here God tells Joseph not to fear. Joseph was afraid to do something. What? Why would Joseph fear in taking Mariam to be his wife? What motivated his fear? How did God calm his fears - more importantly change his intentions? Was Joseph's fear a fear of God?

(Luk 12:4) "I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do.
(Luk 12:5) "But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!
(Luk 12:6) "Are not five sparrows sold for two cents? Yet not one of them is forgotten before God.
(Luk 12:7) "Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Do not fear; you are more valuable than many sparrows.

(Act 10:1) Now there was a man at Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort,
(Act 10:2) a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually.

What was Cornelius' relationship between fearing God and God's commands?

(Rev 19:5) And a voice came from the throne, saying, "Give praise to our God, all you His bond-servants, you who fear Him, the small and the great."

It became clear to me that fear is treated in Scripture as an emotion, sometimes a negative one. However, the passages I read described something different when described as 'fear of God'. Fearing God isn't something the wicked do, instead the opposite is true - That GOD's people are descrived as those who fear Him.

Fearing God is the motivating force for obedience - not a fear of retribution or punishment, but a fear that understands that God is the King of the Universe and as such we rightly and voluntarily should come under His authority. The fear of God motivates us toward all the other action words I posted above.

I fear God because He is the King. I fear Him because He loves me and knows what's best for me. I fear Him because I am His. I fear Him because He has forgiven me.

Friend of I AM
Jan 10th 2009, 04:47 PM
Let me give an earthly example of a healthy fear of God. I used to be a skydive instructor and would tell my students "fear is your friend." What I meant by that is this. A healthy fear will make you check your equipment before jumping. A healthy fear will make you check your equipment right before jumping out at 13000 feet. And a healthy fear will make you pull your parachute with enough altitude to deal with any problems.

In short a healthy fear is your friend and will save your life, here on the earth (extreme activities) and the life to come (eternal life).

We would all be wise to stand up and warn all to have a fear of the God of Israsel, because He is worthy to be feared. Only in Christ can we feel safe from the terror of the Lord.

Isaiah 35:4
Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you.

Not from scripture..but I like this too...

So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is fear itself—nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance. In every dark hour of our national life a leadership of frankness and vigor has met with that understanding and support of the people themselves which is essential to victory.

Franklin D. Roosevelt

Why should I fear God if I'm trying to do what's right? The only time I need to fear is if I'm trying to do the wrong thing. And even then, God is a very graceful parent. Why would God inherently punish us if we make an honest mistake? So often we think of God as nothing more than a wrathful parent. But God is a counselor as well, who wants us to come to him when we have problems. How can I come to God with problems and concerns I have regarding life...if I'm always going to fear condemnation or punishment?

Don't get me wrong..fear is a good starting point in any relationship regarding someone who has authority over us..and this fear should eventually evolve into a form of reverence or respect..but it's ultimately not the best ending point in any relationship. I've seen the results of excessive fear first hand in many lives, and it often times leads to resentment and anger, and ultimately one wanting to have power over the one who makes them fear.

Brother Mark
Jan 10th 2009, 05:08 PM
Don't get me wrong..fear is a good starting point in any relationship regarding someone who has authority over us..and this fear should eventually evolve into a form of reverence or respect..but it's ultimately not the best ending point in any relationship. I've seen the results of excessive fear first hand in many lives, and it often times leads to resentment and anger, and ultimately one wanting to have power over the one who makes them fear.

When Abraham feared God, it was after much growth in the Lord. He learned to fear him through time. God said of Abraham after he had offered Isaac "Because I see you fear me, I will bless you."

There is a proper way to fear God. A healthy fear of God will bring you to God. An unhealthy fear of God will drive you from him. We are not speaking of a fear that is a torment. For that fear, is not from the Lord.

What you speak of is a very unhealthy fear and that is not the fear of the Lord we are talking about.

Diggindeeper
Jan 10th 2009, 05:41 PM
I'd like to offer a passage that has not been mentioned yet, or I haven't seen this one mentioned although I just now read through this whole thread. To me, this is a great picture of those who do not have a reverent fear of God. It is here--

Romans 3:
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17 And the way of peace have they not known:

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

This is a perfect picture of those who have no fear of God! This really is how they live their lives...a mouth full of cursing and bitterness! Swift to shed blood! Destruction and misery in their ways! They don't know how to have (or offer) peace!

There is no fear of God in their eyes.

Friend of I AM
Jan 10th 2009, 08:59 PM
When Abraham feared God, it was after much growth in the Lord. He learned to fear him through time. God said of Abraham after he had offered Isaac "Because I see you fear me, I will bless you."

There is a proper way to fear God. A healthy fear of God will bring you to God. An unhealthy fear of God will drive you from him. We are not speaking of a fear that is a torment. For that fear, is not from the Lord.

What you speak of is a very unhealthy fear and that is not the fear of the Lord we are talking about.

Remember Abraham was also deemed God's friend. I don't think the level of intimacy that Abraham had with God could have been entirely developed by simply being fearful of him.

So I don't think fear will bring one to a greater intimacy or closeness with God, if anything..the only thing fear does is leave us very concious of the fact that we are all deemed sinners before him, and in the initial stages of our walk..it can help keep one from sinning against him. So I believe fear is definitely a good starting point in bringing one to a knowledge of God and possessing his wisdom, but I don't think one will ever really develop any type of real relationship with their creator based on fear.

I often think of the people who approached Jesus to be healed of various ailments. They didn't come to him out of fear, they came to him out of trust..having faith that he was the "son of God" and could fix the problems that they had within their lives. When we go to God, our hope should be that God is loving and can help us resolve whatever issues we are having within our lives...without the fear of believing God will immediately admonish or punish us for whatever problems we may have (or may not have) inadvertently caused within our lives. Perfect love casts out fear..I'd like to think that this doesn't mean just torment, but I'd like to also think that this means this type of love casts out the fear of one having a greater intimacy with their creator.

God bless,

Stephen

Brother Mark
Jan 10th 2009, 09:34 PM
Remember Abraham was also deemed God's friend. I don't think the level of intimacy that Abraham had with God could have been entirely developed by simply being fearful of him.

You are correct. However, keep in mind that God tested Abraham for the fear of the Lord after calling him his friend. Fear has a place in our relationship with God, even when we are his friends, but it must be a proper fear.


So I don't think fear will bring one to a greater intimacy or closeness with God, if anything..Actually it does. Here's a verse.

Ps 25:14
14 The secret of the Lord is for those who fear Him,
And He will make them know His covenant.
NASB

One reason Abraham became God's friend was his fear of God. God shares his secrets with those that fear him. There is an intimacy between God and those that fear him that does not exist with those that do not fear Him. And God makes them to know the covenant as well.


the only thing fear does is leave us very concious of the fact that we are all deemed sinners before him, and in the initial stages of our walk..It does far more than that Stephen. There's a place for love and fear. They are not mutually exclusive. There are many, many, many verses on fear of the Lord.

Grace and peace,

Mark

Just_Another_Guy
Jan 11th 2009, 08:30 PM
Is this needed after justification and regeneration? Why or why not?

I think 1 John 1:14 should come into play during this discussion. If God himself is love, and perfect love indeed casts out all fear...then all those who are in him and completely justified shouldn't have any fear within them either.

Now I can understand where one is coming from being that fear is present in one somewhat during our walk here on earth, as we are still in our fleshy forms. But after sanctification is complete..and we are completely perfected and justified in his presence...we should be like him(1 John 3:2) and thus we too should not possess any type of fear within us.

Yukerboy
Jan 11th 2009, 08:58 PM
Someone once told me....

Fear God and you will fear nothing else. Don't fear God, and you will fear many things.


That someone was as wise as one could be. What a beautiful saying.

Friend of I AM
Jan 11th 2009, 09:14 PM
I like Mark's line as well. But I think Loving God is more important than fearing him...often times I think of these particular verses.

Luke 10:25-10:28
And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

Brother Mark
Jan 11th 2009, 10:15 PM
I like Mark's line as well. But I think Loving God is more important than fearing him...often times I think of these particular verses.

Luke 10:25-10:28
And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

It's not either/or Stephen. It's not love God and don't fear him or fear God and don't love Him. It's fear him and love him.

Loving God is very important and is the greatest command. Fearing God is also important and needs to be done as well.

Friend of I AM
Jan 12th 2009, 06:39 PM
It's not either/or Stephen. It's not love God and don't fear him or fear God and don't love Him. It's fear him and love him.

Loving God is very important and is the greatest command. Fearing God is also important and needs to be done as well.

The question the poster asked was whether or not fear would remain after completely being transformed to the image of God or justified. My answer to this would be no. Remember this verse.

1 Corinthians 13:13
Right now three things remain: faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love.

So although fearing God is important in these fleshy forms, the fear that comes along with the flesh will not remain in a believer once completely justified, as there is no fear in love.

Grace,

Stephen