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reformedct
Jan 9th 2009, 02:32 AM
Just wanted to continue discussing what was meant in that verse in Ephesians 2

"dead in your tresspases and sins"

is it the majority interpretation that this also refers to a state of spiritual death?, even though it doesnt explicitly say the word spiritual?

Upon study it seems that this doesnt mean that we dont have a spirit, but just that our spirit is in a state of death because of its seperation from God. The spirit/heart i indeed active before we are saved but it is cold, hard, and desperately wicked

"i will give you a new heart...."

"i will remove the heart of stone.."

Butch5
Jan 9th 2009, 04:03 AM
Just wanted to continue discussing what was meant in that verse in Ephesians 2

"dead in your tresspases and sins"

is it the majority interpretation that this also refers to a state of spiritual death?, even though it doesnt explicitly say the word spiritual?

Upon study it seems that this doesnt mean that we dont have a spirit, but just that our spirit is in a state of death because of its seperation from God. The spirit/heart i indeed active before we are saved but it is cold, hard, and desperately wicked

Nevertheless the Bible does in fact say "dead", so maybe it does actually mean dead as it says?

"i will give you a new heart...."

"i will remove the heart of stone.."

is it safe to say that heart and spirit are synonomous? Isnt the heart the core of our being? also isnt that the spirit?

Dead in Ephesians 2 is a metaphor.

threebigrocks
Jan 9th 2009, 04:19 AM
(I'll get rid of your double thread.)

I think you've got that pretty clearly figured out!

Haggai 1
5Now therefore, thus says the LORD of hosts, "Consider your ways!
6"You have sown much, but harvest little; you eat, but there is not enough to be satisfied; you drink, but there is not enough to become drunk; you put on clothing, but no one is warm enough; and he who earns, earns wages to put into a purse with holes."
7Thus says the LORD of hosts, "Consider your ways!



Galatians 6
7Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. 8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.

It's what nature we sow to. If we sow to the flesh we reap what the flesh reaps - death. That is an eventuality. If we sow to the spirit, with the Holy Spirit living in us, and die to the flesh (having our hearts of stone (flesh, law) replaced with a new heart (spirit, grace) we are indeed alive through Christ in spirit.


Our spirit is redeemed now, through faith. We wait patiently for the redemption of our bodies.

Romans 8
9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh--
13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

reformedct
Jan 9th 2009, 04:24 AM
Dead in Ephesians 2 is a metaphor.
Metaphors are not just metaphors in the Bible. Jesus said He is the bread of life. Is he literally a piece of bread? no. But He literally is the bread of life. Are we literally dead in our sins in the sense that we are not breathing? lol no, but we are literally dead in our tresspases. Even when the Bible uses metaphors, it is making a literal point

The beast in Revelations is a metaphor but there is actually a person or system or thing that is the beast

Even if dead in tresspasses was a metaphor(which i dont even believe it is), it still literally means what it says. If the Bible doesn't literally mean what it says then why should we read it lol

Butch5
Jan 9th 2009, 05:53 AM
Metaphors are not just metaphors in the Bible. Jesus said He is the bread of life. Is he literally a piece of bread? no. But He literally is the bread of life. Are we literally dead in our sins in the sense that we are not breathing? lol no, but we are literally dead in our tresspases. Even when the Bible uses metaphors, it is making a literal point

The beast in Revelations is a metaphor but there is actually a person or system or thing that is the beast

Even if dead in tresspasses was a metaphor(which i dont even believe it is), it still literally means what it says. If the Bible doesn't literally mean what it says then why should we read it lol

Jesus is the bread of life, that is a metaphor, Jesus is not actually bread as you said, however, Jesus is to our spiritual life as bread is to physical life. A man must eat to live, and a man must partake of Jesus to live spiritually. Paul uses dead in trespasses as a metaphor. He compares our life in sin with that of being dead, that is all. He is not speaking of a literal death, as in spiritual death.

Sirus
Jan 9th 2009, 06:44 AM
So spiritual death is literal?
...and what is literal? Our reality or God's?
If like Adam we are physically dying and will die because we do not have the tree of life we are in fact dead -you shall surely die [Hebrew -dying you will die]- and so death passed on all men. If Adam's relationship was affected then it was, literally. And so is ours. I agree. So where's the metaphor?

theBelovedDisciple
Jan 9th 2009, 09:09 PM
What does it mean to 'be made alive in Christ'?

Paul states a person is dead in trespasses and sins prior to the 'new birth'... being Born Again... being 'quickened'.. according to the Scriptures...


and 'you' hath He quickened...


Is one 'alive' Spiritually in Jesus the Christ prior to the New Birth?

If one is alive prior to the new birth.. then what is the point of Jesus the Christ 'quickening' those whom He has chosen and Saves?


Somebody has to be in a 'certain' state... for God Himself to 'quicken' that person.... so that he/she has become or is made 'alive in Christ'...

What is that state? Paul declares thru the Scripture...


'dead in trespasses and sins'.....


If being dead in trepsasses is a metaphor.. then what of the New Birth? being Quickened by God Himself? that my friend is no metaphor.. but it is real.. I can attest and testify to that today...

The Only Way to Eternal Life is thru Jesus the Christ and His Great Salvation.. He has to 'quicken' the individual... the flesh will return to the dust only to recieve that new body at the Resurrection but when He quickens you.. the New Birth.....the soul and spirit.. that is Eternal...

'ye must be born Again'!! born not out of the will of man.. but born of God...

Being Born Again.. is something God does.. its not based on man's religous motives... He Draws the Sinner, He Converts the Sinner and He Empowers the Convert... Salvation belongs to God alone .. He starts it and He finishes it.. period..

Butch5
Jan 9th 2009, 10:05 PM
So spiritual death is literal?
...and what is literal? Our reality or God's?
If like Adam we are physically dying and will die because we do not have the tree of life we are in fact dead -you shall surely die [Hebrew -dying you will die]- and so death passed on all men. If Adam's relationship was affected then it was, literally. And so is ours. I agree. So where's the metaphor?

The metaphor is Jesus is the bread of life. He is not actually a piece of bread.

The metaphor Paul speaks of is, being dead in sins and trespasses, the ones Paul is writing to are not literally dead.