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mikebr
Jan 10th 2009, 02:29 AM
I was thinking about this tonight at dinner with my wife and my 3 year granddaughter. She, my granddaughter is very sensitive to smell. She smells everything. She notices smells that us older folks don't notice. I fully understand that many of us like the same things as far as our senses are concerned. What got me to thinking is do we make a conscious decision of what we think is pleasing to our senses and do our senses connect us anyway to God. Does our belief come from what we can sense?

If our senses some way lead us to belief in God and we don't control our senses do we have control over our belief?

Think about what Jesus said to Nicodemus in John chapter 3.:hmm:

crossnote
Jan 10th 2009, 06:44 AM
I was thinking about this tonight at dinner with my wife and my 3 year granddaughter. She, my granddaughter is very sensitive to smell. She smells everything. She notices smells that us older folks don't notice. I fully understand that many of us like the same things as far as our senses are concerned. What got me to thinking is do we make a conscious decision of what we think is pleasing to our senses and do our senses connect us anyway to God. Does our belief come from what we can sense?

If our senses some way lead us to belief in God and we don't control our senses do we have control over our belief?

Think about what Jesus said to Nicodemus in John chapter 3.:hmm:

Senses...seeing,hearing,smelling, touch, taste.
Out of these I would think at least seeing and hearing connect us to God. How? When we read His word, our minds orally hear His Word. (Or when we hear it with our ears out loud). His Word is a passageway from our senses to Him. Working backwards, His Incarnation (the Word made flesh) allows us to picture Him in action healing,forgiving, rebuking, eating, thirsting, etc thus giving us more clarity of who God is and this is done 2000 years later also through His Word which touches our senses of sight and sound.
Of course some will go further and bring in taste through the Lord's Supper...but we wont go there will we?

Free will? I'm not sure how that would tie in. Even if we willed to read the bible it doesn't mean God would grant our spiritual eyes to be opened. See Luke 24.

MacGyver
Jan 10th 2009, 02:21 PM
That is a very interesting point. That would make sense because God uses the visible things in order to transmit His invisible graces, such as water Baptism, the Lord's Supper, Oil for the out-pouring of the Holy Spirit and the laying on of hands, etc.

reformedct
Jan 10th 2009, 04:47 PM
Exodus 4:11

11 Then the Lord said to him, “Who has made man's mouth? Who makes him mute, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?


This is tough. Without hearing how can you hear the gospel?? What if someone is born deaf and blind?

Also what about the mentally challenged? Can they be saved? If so, how?

reformedct
Jan 10th 2009, 04:49 PM
Senses...seeing,hearing,smelling, touch, taste.
Out of these I would think at least seeing and hearing connect us to God. How? When we read His word, our minds orally hear His Word. (Or when we hear it with our ears out loud). His Word is a passageway from our senses to Him. Working backwards, His Incarnation (the Word made flesh) allows us to picture Him in action healing,forgiving, rebuking, eating, thirsting, etc thus giving us more clarity of who God is and this is done 2000 years later also through His Word which touches our senses of sight and sound.
Of course some will go further and bring in taste through the Lord's Supper...but we wont go there will we?

Free will? I'm not sure how that would tie in. Even if we willed to read the bible it doesn't mean God would grant our spiritual eyes to be opened. See Luke 24.


yes, there is actually a website called skeptics annotated Bible. Its whole purpose is to point out contradictions in the Bible. So simply reading the word doesnt mean you will be saved

Friend of I AM
Jan 10th 2009, 04:52 PM
I was thinking about this tonight at dinner with my wife and my 3 year granddaughter. She, my granddaughter is very sensitive to smell. She smells everything. She notices smells that us older folks don't notice. I fully understand that many of us like the same things as far as our senses are concerned. What got me to thinking is do we make a conscious decision of what we think is pleasing to our senses and do our senses connect us anyway to God. Does our belief come from what we can sense?

If our senses some way lead us to belief in God and we don't control our senses do we have control over our belief?

Think about what Jesus said to Nicodemus in John chapter 3.:hmm:

I would say that our belief can and will involve feelings, but feelings in themselves can't be the only foundational thing which motivates us in our relationship with God. We have to at times exclude our feelings when making difficult decisions which God wants us to make, despite the fact that our senses tell us to do what's most pleasing to us at the time.

Firstfruits
Jan 11th 2009, 10:43 AM
I was thinking about this tonight at dinner with my wife and my 3 year granddaughter. She, my granddaughter is very sensitive to smell. She smells everything. She notices smells that us older folks don't notice. I fully understand that many of us like the same things as far as our senses are concerned. What got me to thinking is do we make a conscious decision of what we think is pleasing to our senses and do our senses connect us anyway to God. Does our belief come from what we can sense?

If our senses some way lead us to belief in God and we don't control our senses do we have control over our belief?

Think about what Jesus said to Nicodemus in John chapter 3.:hmm:

We that believe and are led of the Spirit have as one of the fruit of the Spirit Temperance (self control).

Gal 5:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

2 Pet 1:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

I hope that helps,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Yukerboy
Jan 11th 2009, 04:32 PM
I was thinking about this tonight at dinner with my wife and my 3 year granddaughter. She, my granddaughter is very sensitive to smell. She smells everything. She notices smells that us older folks don't notice. I fully understand that many of us like the same things as far as our senses are concerned. What got me to thinking is do we make a conscious decision of what we think is pleasing to our senses and do our senses connect us anyway to God. Does our belief come from what we can sense?

If our senses some way lead us to belief in God and we don't control our senses do we have control over our belief?

Think about what Jesus said to Nicodemus in John chapter 3.:hmm:

Seeing that I have some very unpopular stances, I was refraining from answering this to keep from having you suffer guilt by association.

You are absolutely correct in what you say. We have no control over our senses as to whether you can smell something I can't, or taste something I can't.

So, God, at His discretion, decided who should have ears to hear or eyes to see.

So, not only do we not have control over believing in Christ, we have no control over our doctrines.

One will read a verse with the eyes given them by God and see something completely different than another who reads the same verse.

As for what Jesus said to Nicodemus...

No one can see the Kingdom of God unless He is born again.
Flesh gives birth to flesh (at what point did you decide to be born?)
Spirit gives birth to Spirit (at what point did you decide to be born?)
God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (Even Christ, God gave and is a gift to the world.)
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. (Now, for those who define world as all, then all are saved through Him, or God failed.)
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son
This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. (Think this one through, Christ came here, but men loved darkness because their deeds are evil)
Everyone who does evil (men) hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God (which are those who are born again, not of man's decision or choice, but of God)

Firstfruits
Jan 11th 2009, 04:48 PM
Seeing that I have some very unpopular stances, I was refraining from answering this to keep from having you suffer guilt by association.

You are absolutely correct in what you say. We have no control over our senses as to whether you can smell something I can't, or taste something I can't.

So, God, at His discretion, decided who should have ears to hear or eyes to see.

So, not only do we not have control over believing in Christ, we have no control over our doctrines.

One will read a verse with the eyes given them by God and see something completely different than another who reads the same verse.

As for what Jesus said to Nicodemus...

No one can see the Kingdom of God unless He is born again.
Flesh gives birth to flesh (at what point did you decide to be born?)
Spirit gives birth to Spirit (at what point did you decide to be born?)
God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (Even Christ, God gave and is a gift to the world.)
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. (Now, for those who define world as all, then all are saved through Him, or God failed.)
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son
This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. (Think this one through, Christ came here, but men loved darkness because their deeds are evil)
Everyone who does evil (men) hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God (which are those who are born again, not of man's decision or choice, but of God)

Are you saying that even though it is written that we have temperance/self control, that we do not?

Gal 5:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

2 Pet 1:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

Firstfruits

Yukerboy
Jan 11th 2009, 07:06 PM
Are you saying that even though it is written that we have temperance/self control, that we do not?

Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

2 Pet 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

Firstfruits


Oh, we have self-control. And that self-control is a fruit of the Spirit, not an act.

The self-control we exhibit is through love, for one who is born again does all things in love, whether they realize it or not. This is why Paul says that everything we do is justified, though not everything we do is profitable. Paul states that those who are born again do not do what they want, but they are no longer under law.

What does one who is led by the Spirit desire to do? Acts of kindness or acts of malice?

Firstfruits
Jan 11th 2009, 07:12 PM
Oh, we have self-control. And that self-control is a fruit of the Spirit, not an act.

The self-control we exhibit is through love, for one who is born again does all things in love, whether they realize it or not. This is why Paul says that everything we do is justified, though not everything we do is profitable. Paul states that those who are born again do not do what they want, but they are no longer under law.

What does one who is led by the Spirit desire to do? Acts of kindness or acts of malice?

Isn't self control either doing or not doing something by choice?

Firstfruits

Yukerboy
Jan 11th 2009, 07:34 PM
Isn't self control either doing or not doing something by choice?

Firstfruits

Answr my question and you will find the answer to your own.

Firstfruits
Jan 11th 2009, 07:59 PM
Answr my question and you will find the answer to your own.

When we are in the Spirit, we choose not to do the works of the flesh. As it says when we follow the Spirit we shall not fulfil the works of the flesh.

It is by Choice.

I hope that answers your question.

Firstfruits

Yukerboy
Jan 11th 2009, 08:54 PM
When we are in the Spirit, we choose not to do the works of the flesh. As it says when we follow the Spirit we shall not fulfil the works of the flesh.

It is by Choice.

I hope that answers your question.

Firstfruits

Not quite what Paul said.

Paul said that those who are born again do not do what they want, but they are no longer under law.

Do the born again want to do acts of kindness or acts of malice?

The righteous requirements of the law are fully met in those who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

And how do you do that? Love one another, Love the Lord your God.

With those two righteous requirements fulfilling the law, you cannot fail, no matter what you do.

Firstfruits
Jan 12th 2009, 11:43 AM
Not quite what Paul said.

Paul said that those who are born again do not do what they want, but they are no longer under law.

Do the born again want to do acts of kindness or acts of malice?

The righteous requirements of the law are fully met in those who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

And how do you do that? Love one another, Love the Lord your God.

With those two righteous requirements fulfilling the law, you cannot fail, no matter what you do.

To love one another and to love God is an act. Although those two requirements fulfil the law you must make the choice to either love or not, to love God or one another.

We know how we should live but do we all do the righteous thing?

Firstfruits

mikebr
Jan 12th 2009, 01:14 PM
To love one another and to love God is an act. Although those two requirements fulfil the law you must make the choice to either love or not, to love God or one another.

We know how we should live but do we all do the righteous thing?

Firstfruits

We love because He first loved us. We can't choose to love Him if we don't first believe that He loves us.

How do we know He loves us. Don't we have to see it in His creation, taste it in the food He has given us, hear it in the Music He creates?

Yukerboy
Jan 12th 2009, 01:51 PM
To love one another and to love God is an act. Although those two requirements fulfil the law you must make the choice to either love or not, to love God or one another.

We know how we should live but do we all do the righteous thing?

Firstfruits

Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God.

Is it truly an act that we do?

Love is a fruit of the spirit...
love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

I agree that there are acts done out of the fruit of the spirit, but the fruits of the spirit are not themselves acts.

I even take the leap of faith that every act committed by those who are born again do so out of the fruit of the Spirit.

Firstfruits
Jan 12th 2009, 01:54 PM
We love because He first loved us. We can't choose to love Him if we don't first believe that He loves us.

How do we know He loves us. Don't we have to see it in His creation, taste it in the food He has given us, hear it in the Music He creates?

God loves us whether we love him or not;

Jn 3:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

We cannot choose for God to love us, but we must choose to love God as he loves us.

Firstfruits

mikebr
Jan 12th 2009, 02:54 PM
God loves us whether we love him or not;

Jn 3:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

We cannot choose for God to love us, but we must choose to love God as he loves us.

Firstfruits

I agree. My point was that we can't choose to love Him if we don't believe He loves us. I don't be you can be commanded to love. Do you?

mikebr
Jan 12th 2009, 02:55 PM
I believe we can only truly love to the degree we know we are loved?

Amos_with_goats
Jan 12th 2009, 03:11 PM
To the OP,

Yes, and I think that is an excellent point.

Through our senses the Word designed and made us to receive data and make deductive choices. He designed us with this ability. Was it just so we could choose our favorite flavor of ice cream? No, I believe not.

One of the great distinctions about our Lord is that we are invited to 'Come and reason together'. Why reason if not to make decisions.... to choose.

Brilliant!

Firstfruits
Jan 12th 2009, 04:31 PM
I agree. My point was that we can't choose to love Him if we don't believe He loves us. I don't be you can be commanded to love. Do you?

Whether we believe it or not, the following tells us that Jesus did.

Jn 15:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

mikebr
Jan 13th 2009, 12:46 AM
Whether we believe it or not, the following tells us that Jesus did.

Jn 15:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

If so then it has to be an action and not a feeling. We cannot be commanded to feel something but we can be commanded to act. Jesus also called it a new commandment. I think we're on the same page.

mikebr
Jan 13th 2009, 12:50 AM
To the OP,

Yes, and I think that is an excellent point.

Through our senses the Word designed and made us to receive data and make deductive choices. He designed us with this ability. Was it just so we could choose our favorite flavor of ice cream? No, I believe not.

One of the great distinctions about our Lord is that we are invited to 'Come and reason together'. Why reason if not to make decisions.... to choose.

Brilliant!
Yes, if the heaven's declare His Glory/Manifestation, then the channel in which they declare it through our senses. Do I choose to look at the stars and say wow or big deal. I don't think so. I believe we have lost the wonder of His Glory. Someone said one time, "we (Christians) have ceased to be amazing because we have ceased to be amazed."

Firstfruits
Jan 13th 2009, 02:16 PM
If so then it has to be an action and not a feeling. We cannot be commanded to feel something but we can be commanded to act. Jesus also called it a new commandment. I think we're on the same page.

According to the following it is more that a feeling;

1 Thess 1:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

Heb 6:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

God bless You!

Firstfruits