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poochie
Jan 10th 2009, 11:38 AM
I am often criticized by Charismatics, as I am a critic of their movements, which in my POV are not Biblical. What I envy about Charismatics that I am aware of is that they are very vocal, are serious about soul winning, (although Fundamentalists and them have a different philosophy on how its done) they are activists, and will speak out. Hence the majority of my criticism via online or in person over the years have been from this crowd.

Recently one wrote me and has tried to argue against my position on the gift of healing. This person claimed that she had seen people healed right in front of her, and such.

I am curious as to anyone else's experience of being healed. I wrote back and said that I believe that God can heal people, but that the gift of healing has ceased. However I have been wrong before, and await some more tangible evidence from some.

I can say that I am a critic but I do have a open mind. Some other areas where the Lord convicted me.

1. I at one time believed that women could be pastors and teach men but the Lord convicted me.
2. For a short season I was KJVO, but the Lord convicted me.
3. For a season I worked in a New-Evangelical church and supported the emerging church, but the Lord convicted me.
4. There have been other areas where I was very DOGMATIC but in time, and via reasoning from the scriptures with others, myself and the Holy Spirit I have changed positions.


I will also state that I am aware that Fundamentalists & Conservative Evangelicials are in the "minority" in this board and ask this question to hear other stories of being healed, to see perhaps if my views on the matter are incorrect. As one New-Evangelical couple said to me last night out on soul winning "we are both on the same side" and I agreed.

So anyone with healing experiences or such I'd love to hear what you have to say.


Poochie

Bethany67
Jan 10th 2009, 12:00 PM
I haven't experienced any dramatic healings myself, but one of my closest friends in the US was healed of Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome, a genetic disease causing problems with connective tissue and hypermobility. Flutecrafter and Elouise know her as well. When I last stayed with her in Spring 2006, she was mostly in a wheelchair in braces from her neck to her ankles (even her fingers had to have splints on to keep them from bending), on morphine, exploring converting her laptop to voice activation as her hands were refusing to work, and looking at eventually having to have part of her jaw removed as it all crumbled. She also had severe food allergies; I've seen her writhe in agony from them. She even had to take her own glutenfree bread to church so she could participate in communion.

Now she hikes up mountains, dances happily, does other active things that were physically impossible before, and the food allergies are gone. Here's a link to the post in her blog where she explains it:

http://iamhealed.net/2006/09/18/dancing-for-jesus/

Friend of Jesus
Jan 10th 2009, 12:13 PM
My best friend healed of a disease in his leg where the bone grows too quickly in comparsion to the rest of the body. The only way for it to be cured is to wait years for the rest of the body to catch up in growth. It's very painful and stopped him from playing sport.

But in 60 seconds of prayer, he was healed in front of me, and never has had any problems.

I see absolutely no reason why God would not want to heal people anymore. He healed people through the Holy Spirit living in the Apostles, and that same Holy Spirit lives in us today.

On top of the specific situation I mentioned, the Bible College which I am going to next year sees healings on a weekly basis. I have seen several other people healed in church meetings. I have heard testimonies of people who have been to Africa, laid hands on the sick and have healed them.

There's hardly any questions involved, God DOES heal.

Bethany67
Jan 10th 2009, 12:29 PM
Should also mention that the same lady was earlier healed of partial deafness. She had been a Pagan and had a severe vomiting attack (she was fored to remove her hearing aids as the contortions involved in vomiting made them hurt) and felt compelled to command the entities to leave; when they did, she was able to hear without the hearing aids.

Another lady known to me who was healed was Jennifer Rees Larcombe - she was confined to a wheelchair for 8 years after a devastating bout of encephalitis. The doctors considered her a terminal case and told he not to bother about getting addicted to morphine. She was healed when a new Christian shyly asked her if she could pray for her. Jennifer wrote a book called Unexpected Healing. A sober Anglican-type lady.

poochie
Jan 10th 2009, 12:39 PM
My school usually blocks access to blogs and I did read parts of that one and thank you for it. God can heal people praise the Lord for that.

One tragedy of conservatives (I admit) is that we are far more into the intellectual than into the spirit.


I haven't experienced any dramatic healings myself, but one of my closest friends in the US was healed of Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome, a genetic disease causing problems with connective tissue and hypermobility. Flutecrafter and Elouise know her as well. When I last stayed with her in Spring 2006, she was mostly in a wheelchair in braces from her neck to her ankles (even her fingers had to have splints on to keep them from bending), on morphine, exploring converting her laptop to voice activation as her hands were refusing to work, and looking at eventually having to have part of her jaw removed as it all crumbled. She also had severe food allergies; I've seen her writhe in agony from them. She even had to take her own glutenfree bread to church so she could participate in communion.

Now she hikes up mountains, dances happily, does other active things that were physically impossible before, and the food allergies are gone. Here's a link to the post in her blog where she explains it:

http://iamhealed.net/2006/09/18/dancing-for-jesus/

poochie
Jan 10th 2009, 12:43 PM
Amazing. Simply amazing. I do believe that God can heal but I deny that others can do it in his name. I believe the Bible is clear that God heals only.

Its great having the faith than God can do miracles. I rarely hear of these stories (if ever) in Fundamentalist & Conservative fellowships. I am one of their number, but as I've been in the evangelical and charismatic movement as well in the past I saw a greater emphasis on the spirit than on the intellectual. My old girlfriend was in FourSquare.


Should also mention that the same lady was earlier healed of partial deafness. She had been a Pagan and had a severe vomiting attack (she was fored to remove her hearing aids as the contortions involved in vomiting made them hurt) and felt compelled to command the entities to leave; when they did, she was able to hear without the hearing aids.

Another lady known to me who was healed was Jennifer Rees Larcombe - she was confined to a wheelchair for 8 years after a devastating bout of encephalitis. The doctors considered her a terminal case and told he not to bother about getting addicted to morphine. She was healed when a new Christian shyly asked her if she could pray for her. Jennifer wrote a book called Unexpected Healing. A sober Anglican-type lady.

poochie
Jan 10th 2009, 12:56 PM
What college is that? Oral Roberts? Thanks..



My best friend healed of a disease in his leg where the bone grows too quickly in comparsion to the rest of the body. The only way for it to be cured is to wait years for the rest of the body to catch up in growth. It's very painful and stopped him from playing sport.

But in 60 seconds of prayer, he was healed in front of me, and never has had any problems.

I see absolutely no reason why God would not want to heal people anymore. He healed people through the Holy Spirit living in the Apostles, and that same Holy Spirit lives in us today.

On top of the specific situation I mentioned, the Bible College which I am going to next year sees healings on a weekly basis. I have seen several other people healed in church meetings. I have heard testimonies of people who have been to Africa, laid hands on the sick and have healed them.

There's hardly any questions involved, God DOES heal.

ProjectPeter
Jan 10th 2009, 02:08 PM
What college is that? Oral Roberts? Thanks..
What part of Scripture says that these gifts have ceased to be doled out by the Holy Spirit as He sees fit?

poochie
Jan 10th 2009, 03:41 PM
What part of Scripture says that these gifts have ceased to be doled out by the Holy Spirit as He sees fit?

There are arguments made from scripture and from history, culture, etc..

Gift of Healing Began to Fade During Paul's Earthly Ministry

When Paul was writing to Timothy he advised him on his health. "No longer drink water exclusively, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments" (1 Tim. 5:23). Why didn't Paul just heal Timothy? Timothy had enough problems without having stomach problems. Why didn't Paul just use his gift of healing instead of giving him some advice on how to help the problem?

In 2 Timothy 4:20, Paul had to leave Trophimus behind at Miletus because Trophimus was so sick. Why didn't Paul, who had raised Eutychus from the dead (Acts 20:10), just heal Trophimus? The only explanation seems to be that this ministry -- this particular gift of healing -- is being phased out, because in 2 Timothy, Paul is close to the end of his ministry. It was no longer necessary to validate Paul's ministry by the miraculous -- Paul's writings were beginning to be recognized as Scripture (2 Pet. 3:15 16).

Philippians 2:27 gives another example where Paul does not (cannot) heal a fellow Christian, "For indeed he (Epaphroditus) was sick to the point of death, but God had mercy on him, and not on him only but also on me, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow." That is strange as you think of Paul's power as a miracle worker in the earlier part of his ministry.

Tongues

The first mention of speaking in tongues in the Bible is found in Acts 2:4: "And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance." Other "tongues" is the Greek word glossa. All the different people present are listed in verses 9 and 10. These various groups of people are saying that they hear what is being said in their own language (verse 11).

Tongues Were One of the Sign Gifts
The sign gifts, remember, were temporary gifts to validate the ministry of the apostles (2 Cor. 12:12). Tongues are specifically called a sign in 1 Corinthians 14:22.

Once a message had been confirmed by signs and wonders, there was no longer a need for further confirmation (Heb. 2:3 4).

The Gift of Tongues Is not Present Today
What about the ecstatic speech that is a common phenomenon today? Speaking in tongues as it is practiced today is not Biblical tongues. (We have already established that Biblical tongues refers to foreign languages.) The babblings of today have their origin in the mystery cults of ancient Greece and the Roman Empire, and it was practiced by unbelievers.
Experiences Can Be Contrary to the Bible
Be careful not to sift your Bible through what is going on -- instead, know what the Bible says and determine your experiences in light of the standard -- the Word of God! That can be very difficult because you cannot deny your experiences. However, a person on drugs might have beautiful mind-boggling experiences, even religious experiences, but those experiences are not bringing him closer to God. His experience is wrong and drawing him farther away from God's truth. Some experiences are distractions from God's Word.

Tongues Were a Sign to the Jews That Gentiles Were to Be Part of the Body of Christ
In the first part of Acts 10, God had to give Peter a special vision so that Peter would be willing to speak to Cornelius and his household (Gentiles). "While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message" (Acts 10:44). What was the reaction of the Jewish believers? "And all the circumcised believers (Jews) who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentiles also" (Acts 10:45). The Jews recognized this sign and its significance (Acts 11:15 18).

What was the sign that the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentiles? The sign is found in Acts 10:46, "For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God." So again, the gift of tongues was proof that God was not only going to include Jews and Samaritans, but Gentiles as well into the one body God was making. Once the fact had been established, it did not have to be repeated. Once the Jews knew that the Gentiles were to be a part of the Body of Christ, it does not make sense that every time a Gentile believed, he had to give the evidence, for that had already been established. That is the foundation we are to build upon.


These are the two most common sign gifts that have ceased but there are others.

poochie
Jan 10th 2009, 03:45 PM
It is noted that I do believe that God can heal and do miracles for He is God and all powerful (omnipotent).

militarywife
Jan 10th 2009, 03:49 PM
God healed me.
No ifs ands or buts about it...God healed me.

poochie
Jan 10th 2009, 03:51 PM
David Jeremiah preached an excellent sermon on this topic once and I have it on audio cassette (sorry before the days of MP3 and Podcasting).

I can duplicate the tape (as it was a radio broadcast) and mail you a copy if you are interested. Let me know if I cna be of service. I'd only request that you paypal me a little money for shipping, a envelope and the tape.

poochie
Jan 10th 2009, 03:52 PM
God healed me.
No ifs ands or buts about it...God healed me.

Praise the Lord for that! Thats wonderful. What did you have?

militarywife
Jan 10th 2009, 03:54 PM
I had a large 9 millimeter lump of NOTHING praise God removed from my breast.
:pp

chad
Jan 10th 2009, 07:14 PM
Hi Poochie,

You can always tune in and watch this is your day with Benny hinn, then you will see healings all the time.

divaD
Jan 10th 2009, 07:39 PM
Hi Poochie,

You can always tune in and watch this is your day with Benny hinn, then you will see healings all the time.



Are you being serious? I figured most folks got the clue about Benny Hinn by now.

humbled
Jan 10th 2009, 07:41 PM
I have never seen someone born blind given sight.

I have not seen someone with leprosy cleansed.

I have seen someone with chronic back pain healed (unconfirmable)

I have seen someone claim that their benign tumor is a miraculous healing by God.

I have seen someone claim that their knee has been bothering them, but a warm tingly sensation has healed them.

In short, the healings performed today are nothing like the healings performed in Scripture. Those were a sign to prove that Jesus (Paul, Peter, etc) was sent by God. The healings today are psychosomatic.

ProjectPeter
Jan 10th 2009, 07:53 PM
I have never seen someone born blind given sight.

I have not seen someone with leprosy cleansed.

I have seen someone with chronic back pain healed (unconfirmable)

I have seen someone claim that their benign tumor is a miraculous healing by God.

I have seen someone claim that their knee has been bothering them, but a warm tingly sensation has healed them.

In short, the healings performed today are nothing like the healings performed in Scripture. Those were a sign to prove that Jesus (Paul, Peter, etc) was sent by God. The healings today are psychosomatic.
You have never seen it... but then your church doesn't practice it. You don't go where it happens. Is it safe to say then that you judge it on television... youtube... and your own experience?

What does Scripture say? Does it say that this is a gift only for apostles? Where is that passage at?

humbled
Jan 10th 2009, 08:03 PM
You have never seen it... but then your church doesn't practice it. You don't go where it happens. Is it safe to say then that you judge it on television... youtube... and your own experience?

What does Scripture say? Does it say that this is a gift only for apostles? Where is that passage at?I was part of a Pentecostal church for a couple years. I had to leave due to doctrinal disputes (their version of tongues and healings being unbiblical specifically)

The blind given sight ... the lame able to walk. Christ's healings were evidence of the Scriptures being fulfilled. The apostles were given this gift to confirm their mission. They were a continuance of Christ's mission.

Have you seen a miraculous healing take place in the sense of a physical deformation becoming reformed? A person lame being able to walk? A person blind being able to see?

ProjectPeter
Jan 10th 2009, 08:13 PM
I was part of a Pentecostal church for a couple years. I had to leave due to doctrinal disputes (their version of tongues and healings being unbiblical specifically)

The blind given sight ... the lame able to walk. Christ's healings were evidence of the Scriptures being fulfilled. The apostles were given this gift to confirm their mission. They were a continuance of Christ's mission.

Have you seen a miraculous healing take place in the sense of a physical deformation becoming reformed? A person lame being able to walk? A person blind being able to see?
Sure I have. Have even told of it a time or two or ten here on this board over the years.

Again John... you say all of the stuff that you say but where does the Bible say such? So far all that I hear you say is doctrinal dogma and real short of actual Scripture.

Here is how it works. Healing is unbiblical because some preacher once upon a time tried it and it didn't work. Therefore... it is not biblical. Problem is simply this. It wasn't given as a gift to that preacher for whatever the reason. It's the Holy Spirit's call on who He bestows the gift on... not man... not denominational groups... etc.

Here is the truth behind it. I say... sure I have seen the blind see. Sure I have even seen a cripple walk. Then you say... verify this! I say I cannot verify it because I don't know their location any longer... maybe even by now they are dead. I say... I cannot verify it because I don't even know what village they are from or even if they are still alive because of violence in their war torn nation. Shoot... it would be all I can do to even come up with their name.

You say then... AHA! See... so it must not be true!

Let me toss this challenge out to you then. Verify any of the healings in Scripture. Naturally you say... it's in the Bible therefore it is true because I totally believe in the Bible and you can't compare because you aren't Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Paul or Mary. You have a point. I am not those people... The board is not the BIble nor is my post. But again let me ask you this... where in the Bible (that only book with truth that you will accept) does it say that it has stopped and is no more? Where does it say that the Spirit of God is out of the gift giving business to the body of Christ? Anywhere... or are you again simply going by a doctrinal denomination stance along with your own personal experience?

humbled
Jan 10th 2009, 08:37 PM
Sure I have. Have even told of it a time or two or ten here on this board over the years.

Again John... you say all of the stuff that you say but where does the Bible say such? So far all that I hear you say is doctrinal dogma and real short of actual Scripture.

Here is how it works. Healing is unbiblical because some preacher once upon a time tried it and it didn't work. Therefore... it is not biblical. Problem is simply this. It wasn't given as a gift to that preacher for whatever the reason. It's the Holy Spirit's call on who He bestows the gift on... not man... not denominational groups... etc.

Here is the truth behind it. I say... sure I have seen the blind see. Sure I have even seen a cripple walk. Then you say... verify this! I say I cannot verify it because I don't know their location any longer... maybe even by now they are dead. I say... I cannot verify it because I don't even know what village they are from or even if they are still alive because of violence in their war torn nation. Shoot... it would be all I can do to even come up with their name.

You say then... AHA! See... so it must not be true!

Let me toss this challenge out to you then. Verify any of the healings in Scripture. Naturally you say... it's in the Bible therefore it is true because I totally believe in the Bible and you can't compare because you aren't Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Paul or Mary. You have a point. I am not those people... The board is not the BIble nor is my post. But again let me ask you this... where in the Bible (that only book with truth that you will accept) does it say that it has stopped and is no more? Where does it say that the Spirit of God is out of the gift giving business to the body of Christ? Anywhere... or are you again simply going by a doctrinal denomination stance along with your own personal experience?Arguing against strawmen arguments are we?

The Scriptures don't say a lot about many things. But the Scriptures do say what the gifts are for. Healing and tongues are sign gifts. They were given to substantiate the claims by the healer/tongue speaker. The bible doesn't have to say they've ceased for it to be true, because it says what they are for, and that is NOT what they are being used for today. They are being used today to magnify the Spirit of God (allegedly), and nowhere does Scripture speak in this manner (to my knowledge).

I know you don't like the google wars, but this site has a significant list of reasons to believe the gifts are signs (no point in reinventing the wheel). There is really no disputing this fact. (http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/signgifts.htm)


An excerpt:

THE PURPOSE OF SIGN GIFTS:
The Bible teaches that signs were given for the purpose of accreditation.
Mark 16:20--"And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen."
Hebrews 2:4--"God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?"
They either accredited God's man:
Exodus 4:1-10--"And Moses answered and said, But, behold, they will not believe me, nor hearken unto my voice: for they will say, The LORD hath not appeared unto thee. And the LORD said unto him, What is that in thine hand? And he said, A rod. And he said, Cast it on the ground. And he cast it on the ground, and it became a serpent; and Moses fled from before it. And the LORD said unto Moses, Put forth thine hand, and take it by the tail. And he put forth his hand, and caught it, and it became a rod in his hand: That they may believe that the LORD God of their fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath appeared unto thee. And the LORD said furthermore unto him, Put now thine hand into thy bosom. And he put his hand into his bosom: and when he took it out, behold, his hand was leprous as snow. And he said, Put thine hand into thy bosom again. And he put his hand into his bosom again; and plucked it out of his bosom, and, behold, it was turned again as his other flesh. And it shall come to pass, if they will not believe thee, neither hearken to the voice of the first sign, that they will believe the voice of the latter sign. And it shall come to pass, if they will not believe also these two signs, neither hearken unto thy voice,..."

John 20:30--"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:"
Acts 2:22--"Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:"
II Corinthians 12:12--"Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds."
or God's message:
Mark 16:20--"And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen."

Acts 4:29,30--"And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word, By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus."
So tell me .. when that person you spoke of was given sight, or that cripple who is now able to walk, what was that a sign for? New revelation? Confirmation that the "healer" was a messenger from God? That is why the signs are given in Scripture.

Be blessed, Ken

chad
Jan 10th 2009, 08:41 PM
Am I missing something? Whats wrong with Benny Hinn?


Are you being serious? I figured most folks got the clue about Benny Hinn by now.

humbled
Jan 10th 2009, 09:07 PM
Am I missing something? Whats wrong with Benny Hinn?
The Spirit tells Benny that Castro will die in the 90's. (http://www.biblelight.info/Hinn-Castro.mp3)

The Lord tells Benny that homosexuals in America will be destroyed by fire by 1995. (http://www.biblelight.info/Hinn-Homo.mp3)

Benny Hinn's failed prophecy of a peace treaty with Syria's Hafez Al-Assad (http://www.biblelight.info/Hinn-Assad.mp3)

etc, etc, etc ....

Jer 14:14 Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.

Ezek 13:2 [NIV] "Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel who are now prophesying. Say to those who prophesy out of their own imagination: 'Hear the word of the LORD!
3 This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Woe to the foolish prophets who follow their own spirit and have seen nothing!
4 Your prophets, O Israel, are like jackals among ruins.
5 You have not gone up to the breaks in the wall to repair it for the house of Israel so that it will stand firm in the battle on the day of the LORD.
6 Their visions are false and their divinations a lie. They say, "The LORD declares," when the LORD has not sent them; yet they expect their words to be fulfilled.
7 Have you not seen false visions and uttered lying divinations when you say, "The LORD declares," though I have not spoken?
8 "'Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: Because of your false words and lying visions, I am against you, declares the Sovereign LORD.
9 My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and utter lying divinations. They will not belong to the council of my people or be listed in the records of the house of Israel, nor will they enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Sovereign LORD.

http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/tbn.htm (http://www.aloha.net/%7Emikesch/tbn.htm)

ProjectPeter
Jan 10th 2009, 09:10 PM
Arguing against strawmen arguments are we?Not at all. It is called reasoning is it not? Again... where does it say that healing stopped and the Spirit will only impart gifts for those few years etc. I'm very certain it doesn't... and no one hollers Scripture ONLY any more than a Calvinist... right? Yet so far all I get is website links that are filled with silly error and again denominational dogma. ;)


The Scriptures don't say a lot about many things. But the Scriptures do say what the gifts are for. Healing and tongues are sign gifts. They were given to substantiate the claims by the healer/tongue speaker. The bible doesn't have to say they've ceased for it to be true, because it says what they are for, and that is NOT what they are being used for today. They are being used today to magnify the Spirit of God (allegedly), and nowhere does Scripture speak in this manner (to my knowledge).Scripture does SAY A LOT about the gifts though. One of the things that it doesn't say is that the Spirit doesn't dole those gifts out as He sees fit once the Bible is printed up and everyone has a copy. ;) Again... Sola Scriptura eh... isn't that one of your rallying calls? Then prove it by Sola Scriptura or admit that Scripture says what it says therefore it must be true even though I've never personally witnessed it myself. That would be consistent John... you did mention that earlier eh? ;)




I know you don't like the google wars, but this site has a significant list of reasons to believe the gifts are signs (no point in reinventing the wheel). There is really no disputing this fact. (http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/signgifts.htm)

So tell me .. when that person you spoke of was given sight, or that cripple who is now able to walk, what was that a sign for? New revelation? Confirmation that the "healer" was a messenger from God? That is why the signs are given in Scripture.

Be blessed, KenRest assured... a lot of folks believed and glorified God. Imagine that... pretty near sounds like them there words in Scripture. ;)

humbled
Jan 10th 2009, 09:17 PM
Not at all. It is called reasoning is it not? Again... where does it say that healing stopped and the Spirit will only impart gifts for those few years etc. I'm very certain it doesn't... and no one hollers Scripture ONLY any more than a Calvinist... right? Yet so far all I get is website links that are filled with silly error and again denominational dogma. ;)

Scripture does SAY A LOT about the gifts though. One of the things that it doesn't say is that the Spirit doesn't dole those gifts out as He sees fit once the Bible is printed up and everyone has a copy. ;) Again... Sola Scriptura eh... isn't that one of your rallying calls? Then prove it by Sola Scriptura or admit that Scripture says what it says therefore it must be true even though I've never personally witnessed it myself. That would be consistent John... you did mention that earlier eh? ;)

Rest assured... a lot of folks believed and glorified God. Imagine that... pretty near sounds like them there words in Scripture. ;)So are these gifts sign gifts? Or are they everyday gifts that one must simply believe for?

ProjectPeter
Jan 10th 2009, 10:22 PM
So are these gifts sign gifts? Or are they everyday gifts that one must simply believe for?
Call them whatever you want. Bible just says that they are gifts of the Spirit. Men have given them various titles... so whatever you want to call them call them. Gift of healings however is a gift of the Spirit is it not? If the Spirit determines one day as John enters an African village which suffers from some disease... to say John, go lay hands on those people and they will recover... John does that and they recover... what then? Did John do that? Nope. No more so than Peter did, Paul did, or any of the others disciples. Nevertheless... it was a gift of the Spirit to those whom the Spirit enables.

Now... we know it is a biblical spiritual gift. We also don't see anywhere in the Bible that says it has stopped. Again John... Is it Sola Scriptura or is there some other authority that says it's no longer so?

Bethany67
Jan 10th 2009, 10:26 PM
The blind given sight ... the lame able to walk. Christ's healings were evidence of the Scriptures being fulfilled. The apostles were given this gift to confirm their mission. They were a continuance of Christ's mission.

Have you seen a miraculous healing take place in the sense of a physical deformation becoming reformed? A person lame being able to walk? A person blind being able to see?

Well, as I posted, my friend was partially deaf and then could hear, then was in a wheelchair in full body braces with a genetic disease and now is able-bodied (confirmed by doctors). Jesus was glorified through her healings, and she gives all credit to Him. What would convince you? You want to talk to her directly? I've posted her public blog where you can reach her if you choose.

poochie
Jan 10th 2009, 11:17 PM
Hi Poochie,

You can always tune in and watch this is your day with Benny hinn, then you will see healings all the time.

He's a "Spiritual Terrorist" and makes all sorts of false claims.

Hinn claims that Jesus will appear Physically in Kenya Africa with him. (http://www.cerm.info/audio_files/benny-hinn.mp3)

poochie
Jan 10th 2009, 11:18 PM
Thats the argument presented in Charismatic Chaos. But who knows? There may be some legit cases.



I have never seen someone born blind given sight.

I have not seen someone with leprosy cleansed.

I have seen someone with chronic back pain healed (unconfirmable)

I have seen someone claim that their benign tumor is a miraculous healing by God.

I have seen someone claim that their knee has been bothering them, but a warm tingly sensation has healed them.

In short, the healings performed today are nothing like the healings performed in Scripture. Those were a sign to prove that Jesus (Paul, Peter, etc) was sent by God. The healings today are psychosomatic.

ProjectPeter
Jan 10th 2009, 11:22 PM
Thats the argument presented in Charismatic Chaos. But who knows? There may be some legit cases.
Think of this too. Let's say someone has a messed up back. Doctor's say... you should be in constant pain and not even really able to walk. They look at the XRays and that is the conclusion that they come to... medically. However, let's say the person does walk and doesn't live in constant pain. Some might call that psychosomatic I suppose but what if they were prayed for and from that day that is how it was. They give all the glory to God and that healing (call it what you will) allows them to work for the kingdom of God. Would that be a healing... no matter the medical or psychological labels that man wants to put on it?

Brother Mark
Jan 10th 2009, 11:23 PM
One tragedy of conservatives (I admit) is that we are far more into the intellectual than into the spirit.

Indeed, this is a tragedy for Jesus himself said God is looking for those to worship him in Spirit and in truth. Sadly, some charismatics have half the equation and some fundamentalist have half of it. But God is looking for the entire thing.

Anyway, back to your OP. Last year, we had a lady in our church that had 1 month to live because of cancer. She is alive today because God healed her during our service. We are a small southern baptist church.

Also, in the same church, we had a couple that was barren. They came to our pastor for counseling. The Lord spoke to our pastor and he told them "You have to lay it down. Take your desire to the altar and give it completely to God." Each day they died to this and offered it to the Lord. Within a few months, they were pregnant.

These happened recently though I can give stories for many other healings too.

Grace and peace,

Mark

chad
Jan 11th 2009, 12:53 AM
Spiritual Terrorist? I have never heard that term before. What does it mean?


He's a "Spiritual Terrorist" and makes all sorts of false claims.

Hinn claims that Jesus will appear Physically in Kenya Africa with him. (http://www.cerm.info/audio_files/benny-hinn.mp3)

ProjectPeter
Jan 11th 2009, 12:55 AM
Okay guys... let's not turn this into just another "Benny Hinn" thread. We aren't talking about Benny Hinn. We are talking about the biblical gift of healings as spoken of in Scripture. 1 Corinthians 12 is where you can find it mentioned.

poochie
Jan 11th 2009, 04:15 AM
Very well said. I agree with it. There are those that have the spirit thing down, but are absent of truth. And there are those that have all truth, but no spirit,etc..


Indeed, this is a tragedy for Jesus himself said God is looking for those to worship him in Spirit and in truth. Sadly, some charismatics have half the equation and some fundamentalist have half of it. But God is looking for the entire thing.

Anyway, back to your OP. Last year, we had a lady in our church that had 1 month to live because of cancer. She is alive today because God healed her during our service. We are a small southern baptist church.

Also, in the same church, we had a couple that was barren. They came to our pastor for counseling. The Lord spoke to our pastor and he told them "You have to lay it down. Take your desire to the altar and give it completely to God." Each day they died to this and offered it to the Lord. Within a few months, they were pregnant.

These happened recently though I can give stories for many other healings too.

Grace and peace,

Mark

poochie
Jan 11th 2009, 04:18 AM
Spiritual Terrorist? I have never heard that term before. What does it mean?

This is off topic but since you asked I will only answer and not expect anything else.

Spiritual Terrorist
First one must realize that the term "Spiritual Terrorist" is just one of many words that can be used to describe false deceivers. Looking at the book Words of Delight by Biblical Scholar Leland Ryken, he says that archetypes often recur throughout the Bible and there are many different themes and archetypes that recur throughout the canon of scripture (Ryken, 26). Likewise "False Prophet" or "Spiritual Terrorist" is a recurring theme throughout the Bible.

Below are other words (archetypes) to describe "Spiritual Terrorists" that are used in the Bible. (From the New International Version)
1. Snakes & Vipers- Mt 23:33
2. Scorpions-Lk 10:19, Dt 8:15, Eze 2:6
3. Wolves-Mt 7:15,Mt 10:16,Lk 10:3,Acts 20:29, John 10:12
4. False Prophets- Mt 7:15,Mt 24:11,Mt 24:24,Mk 13:22, 2 Pet 2:1,1 John 4:1
5. False Teachers-2 Pet 2:1,1 Ti 1:3
6. Brute Beasts-2 Pet 2:12
7. Animals- 2 Pet 2:12 (NASB, ESV and HCSB)
8. AntiChrists-1 Jn 2:18, 1 Jn 4:3
Although the word "Spiritual Terrorist" is never explicitly mentioned in the scriptures, the word can be used to label those that match the criteria of the words above. Based on criteria from these passages and from 2 Pet 2 and Jude below is a better profile of a Spiritual Terrorist and what they wish to accomplish. (From the New International Version)
1. The Terrorists are inside the Christian Church- Jude 1:4, Jude 1:12, 2 Pet 2:1-2, 2 Pet 2:13
2. The Terrorists lack the Holy Spirit-Jude 1:19
3. The Terrorists teach another Gospel Message- Gal 1:8, 2 Pet 2:1, Jude 1:4, 2 Pet 2:12,
4. The Terrorists lack the fruits of the Spirit (Gal 5:22ff)-Mt 7:16,20, Jude 1:12, 2 Pet 2:14,
5. The Terrorists are all about Self Promotion-Jude 1:12,Jude 1:16,Jude 1:18,
6. The Terrorists attack all those that disagree with them-Jude 1:10
7. The Terrorists will spend eternity in Hell/The Lake of Fire-Jude 1:13, 2 Pet 2:3,2 Pet 2:9,2 Pet 2:15, 2 Pet 2:17

divaD
Jan 11th 2009, 04:23 AM
Very well said. I agree with it. There are those that have the spirit thing down, but are absent of truth. And there are those that have all truth, but no spirit,etc..




Could you please explain this? If truth comes via the Spirit of the Lord, and if the Spirit of the Lord is truth, then how can one have truth but not the Spirit, or the Spirit but not truth?

Also, exactly what does it mean to you to be in the Spirit? Do you mean like talking in tongues? Things like that?

stillforgiven
Jan 11th 2009, 04:37 AM
Recently one wrote me and has tried to argue against my position on the gift of healing. This person claimed that she had seen people healed right in front of her, and such.

I am curious as to anyone else's experience of being healed. I wrote back and said that I believe that God can heal people, but that the gift of healing has ceased. However I have been wrong before, and await some more tangible evidence from some.

So anyone with healing experiences or such I'd love to hear what you have to say.


Poochie

I don't know if this is what you are looking for, and it wasn't me, but my mom. A few years ago she was healed of breast cancer at a church that calls itself Full Gospel. She'd already had a needle biopsy that confirmed the lump was cancer, but had not yet had the mastectomy. This church believed that all the Gift of the Spirit are currently active in the church today. My parents had never gone to a church like this, but went when invited by a close friend, thinking it couldn't hurt. They said most of the entire congregation, women actually touching my mom and men behind the women, gathered around her praying. I'm not sure how long it lasted, but she said later that she actually saw the cancer leave her body. She went in for the surgery a day or two later, and she asked them to do another ultrasound on the lump before being prepped for surgery, and it was gone. Her healing was medically documented.

humbled
Jan 11th 2009, 05:17 AM
Think of this too. Let's say someone has a messed up back. Doctor's say... you should be in constant pain and not even really able to walk. They look at the XRays and that is the conclusion that they come to... medically. However, let's say the person does walk and doesn't live in constant pain. Some might call that psychosomatic I suppose but what if they were prayed for and from that day that is how it was. They give all the glory to God and that healing (call it what you will) allows them to work for the kingdom of God. Would that be a healing... no matter the medical or psychological labels that man wants to put on it?Let me be clear: I have no problem with the potential that God CAN heal if He chooses. My issue is with the REASONS for His healing. I suppose I've seen too much WoF and it has put me off (we DEMAND you heal him! we WON'T be denied! etc). But I also deny the idea that He heals only if we have the faith that He will. That puts far too much pressure on a sick person who is not healed.

God will heal if He chooses. God will not if He chooses not to.

As for your scenario ... my church is probably one of the more afflicted churches around (my pastor, who is 70+ years old says it's the most afflicted he's ever seen), and each time someone with cancer comes back benign or in remission, we give all glory to God. Once a little girl was in a skiing accident and didn't have much chance of living ... we gave credit of her survival solely to God. We praised Him each time ... congregationally.

We simply don't go around demanding and praying for people to rise from their wheelchairs. It is my OPINION that God does not work miraculously on a regular basis. In fact, I have seen far more glory given to God because of someone's affliction that would not have been there had they been well.

If God wants someone healed, I believe He will work through more subtle means and HIS SHEEP WILL give Him the glory because they don't need to see a miracle to give glory to God .. we understand His sovereignty.

Blessings

shepherdsword
Jan 11th 2009, 05:34 AM
Amazing. Simply amazing. I do believe that God can heal but I deny that others can do it in his name. I believe the Bible is clear that God heals only.

This statement is a bit confusing. Are you saying that God just heals by his sovereignty and not in response to a prayer in Jesus's name? I am also interested in why you think that the gift of healing( and by that I guess you mean prophecy,tounges and the other gifts as well) have ceased?

Do you agree that in the last days Satan will try to deceive many with lying signs and wonders? Do you think God will remain inactive in response to that? I have personally seen two instant healings in the name of Jesus. In one a person got out of a wheelchair and walked and in another a girl was instantly healed of deafness in her left ear. Is your position based on the abuse you see by the many scam artists on T.V?

Friend of Jesus
Jan 11th 2009, 10:02 AM
What college is that? Oral Roberts? Thanks..

If that was a joke it's lost on me.

The Bible college I'm going to is based in England and is called Kingdom Faith, which is also the name of a small group of churches. The leader of the college (and the churches) is Colin Urquhart, who is an apostle (not just someone who calls themselves one).

If you want to check it out, it's here http://www.kingdomfaith.com/College/Default.aspx

But I should also add, do not judge a book by its cover. Kingdom Faith is best described as one of the most repentant churches in the country. As a result it has lived for many years in Revival (not of the Lakeland sort), the kind that the 1st Century church lived in.

Bethany67
Jan 11th 2009, 10:48 AM
Down in Horsham, eh? Not a million miles from me in London.

Colin's one of the grandees of the British charismatic scene; his name has been bouncing around for decades. I remember reading 'When The Spirit Comes' about 20 years ago.

poochie
Jan 11th 2009, 12:12 PM
Interesting. God does heal thats for sure.


I don't know if this is what you are looking for, and it wasn't me, but my mom. A few years ago she was healed of breast cancer at a church that calls itself Full Gospel. She'd already had a needle biopsy that confirmed the lump was cancer, but had not yet had the mastectomy. This church believed that all the Gift of the Spirit are currently active in the church today. My parents had never gone to a church like this, but went when invited by a close friend, thinking it couldn't hurt. They said most of the entire congregation, women actually touching my mom and men behind the women, gathered around her praying. I'm not sure how long it lasted, but she said later that she actually saw the cancer leave her body. She went in for the surgery a day or two later, and she asked them to do another ultrasound on the lump before being prepped for surgery, and it was gone. Her healing was medically documented.

poochie
Jan 11th 2009, 12:15 PM
I believe Oral Roberts to be the most Charismatic school in the USA. I believe that healings happen there. I do not know this kingdom faith, but will look at the website.



If that was a joke it's lost on me.

The Bible college I'm going to is based in England and is called Kingdom Faith, which is also the name of a small group of churches. The leader of the college (and the churches) is Colin Urquhart, who is an apostle (not just someone who calls themselves one).

If you want to check it out, it's here http://www.kingdomfaith.com/College/Default.aspx

But I should also add, do not judge a book by its cover. Kingdom Faith is best described as one of the most repentant churches in the country. As a result it has lived for many years in Revival (not of the Lakeland sort), the kind that the 1st Century church lived in.

poochie
Jan 11th 2009, 12:17 PM
I answered that question in one of the earlier posts in the thread that no one replied too. I answered why the gift of healing and tongues have ceased.





This statement is a bit confusing. Are you saying that God just heals by his sovereignty and not in response to a prayer in Jesus's name? I am also interested in why you think that the gift of healing( and by that I guess you mean prophecy,tounges and the other gifts as well) have ceased?

Do you agree that in the last days Satan will try to deceive many with lying signs and wonders? Do you think God will remain inactive in response to that? I have personally seen two instant healings in the name of Jesus. In one a person got out of a wheelchair and walked and in another a girl was instantly healed of deafness in her left ear. Is your position based on the abuse you see by the many scam artists on T.V?

godsgirl
Jan 11th 2009, 12:32 PM
Actually, no they haven't "ceased' your theology is faulty. The Bible says that the gifts will cease when "that which is perfect is come" and we "know as we are known." For now, we see "through a glass darkly" and do not 'know as we are known". The idea that tongues for example was only given to show that gentiles or whatever people group was accepted in the beloved is extra biblical. The Bible, which is our all sufficient rule of faith and practice repeatedly shows that tongues are the first physical evidence of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit=and Peter told us plainly, "for this promise is to you, to your children and to all who are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call".

Bethany67
Jan 11th 2009, 01:02 PM
I am also of the view that the 'gifts have ceased' view is faulty theology and not supported by scripture, although I am less dogmatic on the classic Pentecostal view of tongues always being the initial evidence of baptism in the Holy Spirit (although it was so in my case). I know Christians who have never spoken in tongues but have been given words of knowledge and discernment of spirits. The Holy Spirit gives gifts as He sees fit, for the building up of the Body, and we still need that building-up. However the dispensationalist view has been aided by some of the extremist behaviour in the charismatic/Pentecostal camp, which I equally deplore.

ProjectPeter
Jan 11th 2009, 01:25 PM
Let me be clear: I have no problem with the potential that God CAN heal if He chooses. My issue is with the REASONS for His healing. I suppose I've seen too much WoF and it has put me off (we DEMAND you heal him! we WON'T be denied! etc). But I also deny the idea that He heals only if we have the faith that He will. That puts far too much pressure on a sick person who is not healed.

God will heal if He chooses. God will not if He chooses not to.

As for your scenario ... my church is probably one of the more afflicted churches around (my pastor, who is 70+ years old says it's the most afflicted he's ever seen), and each time someone with cancer comes back benign or in remission, we give all glory to God. Once a little girl was in a skiing accident and didn't have much chance of living ... we gave credit of her survival solely to God. We praised Him each time ... congregationally.

We simply don't go around demanding and praying for people to rise from their wheelchairs. It is my OPINION that God does not work miraculously on a regular basis. In fact, I have seen far more glory given to God because of someone's affliction that would not have been there had they been well.

If God wants someone healed, I believe He will work through more subtle means and HIS SHEEP WILL give Him the glory because they don't need to see a miracle to give glory to God .. we understand His sovereignty.

BlessingsYou already know my stand on the WOF stuff. Over the years I've been right clear on that. Not talking that nonsense. As to the faith of the sick person... there will be times when it is dependent on their faith. Scripture shows that. Times when Jesus healed simply out of compassion or there were times when Jesus healed to make a point. All was done for God's glory.

Walstib
Jan 11th 2009, 01:55 PM
I know Christians who have never spoken in tongues but have been given words of knowledge and discernment of spirits.

This is one aspect I find most interesting, that there are extremes/ditches in almost every aspect of the truth.

It seems to me there are those who believe in an extreme gift of healing view that reject others discernment of spirits regarding people who are wolves in sheep's clothing.

Then there are those in an extreme discernment of spirits view who that reject everyone who may have a gift of healing as being wolves in sheep's clothing.

But like I said, just one aspect of this topic.

Peace,
Joe

Bethany67
Jan 11th 2009, 02:04 PM
Yeah - the irony of course is that the gifts are not intended to divide but to build up. Instead we squabble and wrangle; how foolish we are. I tend to err on the side of caution in terms of practice because of what I saw in WOF circles, and equally I cannot deny that God still intends the gifts for today because I hold the correct exegesis of scripture in high regard.

humbled
Jan 11th 2009, 03:44 PM
...I cannot deny that God still intends the gifts for today because I hold the correct exegesis of scripture in high regard.lol

fwiw, the "other side" of this issue would say the same thing, so no point in saying it really ;)

tease mode on:

and you spelled it wrong ... in your case it's spelled eisegesis :P

divaD
Jan 11th 2009, 04:07 PM
[
and equally I
cannot deny that God still intends the gifts for today


Correct exegesis of scripture or not, what about the 1800s, or the 1700s, or the 1600s, etc? Can you provide proof that the gifts were for then too? If they're still for today, they would have been for then also. As a matter of fact, they would have never ceased one time during the course of their beginning until now. Is that the case?

We have to consider all of the people who are truly hurt by these things. It almost makes God look cruel. Except I'm convinced God has nothing to do with all of this these days. My mother is one of these people who is hurt by this. Because of arthritis, she has been bound to a wheelchair for the past 10 yrs since she was in her 50s. During that entire time she has been convinced that God is going to heal her and that she is going to get up and walk again. Why does she believe this? Because she has been told time and time again that God is still healing thru the gift of the Spirit, and that others are being healed left and right. So why isn't she getting healed then? Does God hate her? Is her faith not strong enough? I can only imagine the torment going thru her mind. She nor does anyone else deserve to be treated like this. Either God still heals today thru the gift of the Spirit, or He doesn't. So which is it?

We have seen several testimonies in this thread regarding healings. I for one believe the testimonies, but it only paints a picture that God likes some people better than others, if it was really God that healed them. Obviously God doesn't like my mother or anyone like her, because He refuses to heal them. That's the picture it paints.

15 yrs ago or so I was charasmatic. I never witnessed one healing, but I did attend a healing class in our church at the time, which cost 5 dollars, and supposedely they could make arms or legs that were of different lengths be healed and become the same lengths again. I don't know what that was all about, but they sure liked doing it for some reason. That church was Church on the Rock, Rockwell, Tx, pastored by Larry Lea. I can't believe I was so naive in those days. Live and learn I guess.


I'm pretty sure that the conclusions that some might come to is that I must not believe the Bible, since I don't believe the gift of healing is in operation today. That is far from the truth. All I have to do is read the Bible and I can clearly see that the healings that took place back then don't even remotely resemble what is supposedely taking place today.

My main concern is for those such as my mother. These people don't deserve to be treated like this. Where is the compassion for others? Why don't we ever consider what some of this does to others that are putting their faith into false hopes?

BTW, we should know by now that when a thread such as this is started, there is always going to be someone such as I whom dares to question it. There should be no suprises there. What I would like to see are real answers and not excuses.

Bethany67
Jan 11th 2009, 04:10 PM
lol

fwiw, the "other side" of this issue would say the same thing, so no point in saying it really ;)

tease mode on:

and you spelled it wrong ... in your case it's spelled eisegesis :P

::: blows a raspberry ;) :::

Bethany67
Jan 11th 2009, 04:53 PM
divaD - while the gifts became somewhat sparse in church history (as an overreaction to Montanism initially), they did continue in small pockets even when officially clamped down on by church authorities. Irenaeus was still talking of them in AD 150. Justin Martyr said the prophetic gifts remained amongst them at around the same time. Origen did the same around AD 207, followed by Novatian (200-258), Hilary of Poitiers (ca. 360). It was the massive influence of Augustine of Hippo which led to the widespread view that the gifts were only for the apostolic age. Hildegard of Bingen (1100s), the Moravians (1300), the Camisards (1600s), Edward Irving, 1800s, Church of Scotland) all believed in the gifts, as attested by their contemporary critics. Even Luther is said to have spoken in tongues: referred to in the German work by Souer, A History of the Christian Church, Volume 3.

I'd encourage you to read 'The Pilgrim Church' by a man called Edmund H Broadbent (himself a Plymouth Brethren, not generally noted for their sympathy towards the gifts); there's too much in there for me to summarise here. For starters, consider the historical 17th century Quakers such as Edward Burrough, not the modern universalists many of them have become.

As for people getting hurt, oh yes. You're talking to someone publically accused by the elders of her church of killing her father by not having enough faith for him to be healed of cancer, so I have very painful firsthand knowledge of how the extremes work. God does heal but He isn't a slot machine and doesn't always heal. I can't put it any more simply than that, and I also can't offer anything like patterns or techniques, because ultimately it's up to Him; there are no guarantees, nor do I think it means He loves some more than others. I do know of people like Joni Tada Earickson who has NOT been healed but has managed to glorify God and reach others by NOT being healed.

poochie
Jan 11th 2009, 08:46 PM
I know Christians who have never spoken in tongues but have been given words of knowledge and discernment of spirits. The Holy Spirit gives gifts as He sees fit, for the building up of the Body, and we still need that building-up. However the dispensationalist view has been aided by some of the extremist behaviour in the charismatic/Pentecostal camp, which I equally deplore.

Its interesting to see what some interpret as this gift. I met a Charismatic whom told me that he had this gift and could tell me who was saved and who was not, just by looking at them. He said that he could see demons on people that were not saved. He told me that I lacked faith, and was a critic of the things of God (this was after I tried to reason with him about his false beliefs).

Likewise I met a New-Evangelical/Charismatic College leader on another occasion whom in a room with his college kids, announced that he felt that he was being spiritually attacked. He said that demons were attacking him, and he could feel it, and hear it! How ridiculous!!!

Bethany67
Jan 11th 2009, 08:53 PM
Actually I have been demonically attacked in a physical way; it flattened me and 2 Pagans present in our seats, pressing us down, and was an utterly vile feeling. It's not something to be scoffed at when it really happens.

poochie
Jan 11th 2009, 09:07 PM
Actually I have been demonically attacked in a physical way; it flattened me and 2 Pagans present in our seats, pressing us down, and was an utterly vile feeling. It's not something to be scoffed at when it really happens.

I am sorry but what you have said makes no sense.

Friend of Jesus
Jan 11th 2009, 10:25 PM
Likewise I met a New-Evangelical/Charismatic College leader on another occasion whom in a room with his college kids, announced that he felt that he was being spiritually attacked. He said that demons were attacking him, and he could feel it, and hear it! How ridiculous!!!

Whether that specific situation was genuine or not, people are oppressed by Satan. The thing is that often those think the feelings that arise from the attack come from themselves. Ephesians 6 warns us of this, hense the need for "Spiritual armour", or in other words: trusting God.

Brother Mark
Jan 11th 2009, 11:01 PM
I am sorry but what you have said makes no sense.

Hey Poochie. Hope you had a good weekend. I am not really commenting about the quote above, it just served as a good place to jump back in the conversation.

As a side note, I was blessed today by baptizing my brother! Woo-hoo! He spent many years in church before he finally got saved. I am very excited about it.

Have you ever read any books by Jack Deere? He taught for many years at Dallas Theological Seminary. He wrote one book in particular called "Surprised by the Voice of God" that I really liked. He also wrote "Surprised by the Power of the Spirit". I like them both.

At some point, I hope we can discuss the concept of hearing God speak today. We've touched on it slightly in the past. But perhaps that's another thread. For now, I do have some questions that is related to this thread.

Do you believe the gift of healing was ever a gift? If so, do you believe it has ceased? And if you believe it has ceased, why do you believe so?

Thanks for the conversation.

Grace and peace,

Mark

catlover
Jan 12th 2009, 12:21 AM
In response to the very original post, yes, I have been healed.

poochie
Jan 12th 2009, 01:50 AM
Dallas seminary is a New-Evangelical training center. I usually do not associate with that flock because of my convictions on the doctrine of SEPARATION. However I believe that sometimes the New-Evangelicals are useful, and hence even at my seminary we use some New Evangelical authors as they write most of the christian book market. I did a amazon search for those books and they popped up. I will read some of the reviews.



Do you believe the gift of healing was ever a gift? If so, do you believe it has ceased? And if you believe it has ceased, why do you believe so?

Yes
Yes
Thats a long answer. I wrote something earlier in this thread to Peter. But none the less you are welcome to check out my article on my website which you can get to by clicking on my name and going to my homepage as I have a extensive article on the subject there. Other than that I agree with 90% of what John MacArthur writes in Charismatic Chaos and suggest you read it. He explains why the gift ceased and for the main reasons below that the disciples could do, BUT no current Faith healer can.

1) HEAL with a word or touch- Acts 9:32-35
2) HEAL instantly-Acts 3:2-8
3) HEAL totally-Acts 9:34
4) HEAL anyone- Acts 5:12-16
5) HEAL organic diseases
6) HEAL at will
7) RAISE the dead-Acts 9:36-42,20:9-12







Hey Poochie. Hope you had a good weekend. I am not really commenting about the quote above, it just served as a good place to jump back in the conversation.

As a side note, I was blessed today by baptizing my brother! Woo-hoo! He spent many years in church before he finally got saved. I am very excited about it.

Have you ever read any books by Jack Deere? He taught for many years at Dallas Theological Seminary. He wrote one book in particular called "Surprised by the Voice of God" that I really liked. He also wrote "Surprised by the Power of the Spirit". I like them both.

At some point, I hope we can discuss the concept of hearing God speak today. We've touched on it slightly in the past. But perhaps that's another thread. For now, I do have some questions that is related to this thread.

Do you believe the gift of healing was ever a gift? If so, do you believe it has ceased? And if you believe it has ceased, why do you believe so?

Thanks for the conversation.

Grace and peace,

Mark

Bethany67
Jan 12th 2009, 01:57 AM
I am sorry but what you have said makes no sense.

My post here will explain the full context of what happened. You may not believe it if it's outside your own experience, of course:

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1710015&highlight=coven#post1710015

poochie
Jan 12th 2009, 02:10 AM
Found some red flags on this person. The fact that he has so much red on his background warrants a case of SEPARATION!

You know my church at home is Southern Baptist, but we sure are cessationist. We are conservative Southern Baptist, but we are not Fundamentalist as the church does not teach full separation.

---
Jack Deere, who taught at Dallas Theological Seminary, was a cessationist (http://www.apologeticsindex.org/c85.html) who converted to the noncessationist position - a move he describes in his book "Surprised by the Power of the Spirit."

From September '88 through April '92, Deere was an associate pastor at the Vineyard Christian Fellowship (http://www.apologeticsindex.org/a92.html) of Anaheim. With Wayne Grudem, he was one of the movement's primary theologicians.

Some remarks Deere allegedly made during a conference in Sydney, Australia were questioned in the April, 1990 issue of "The Briefing." (i.e. that the church does not know what the true Gospel is; and that Scripture is not sufficient for Christian living). A portion of the article is quoted in False Prophets...Pseudo Apostles, & A New Gospel (http://www.fundamentalbiblechurch.org/Tracts/fbcfalse.htm)http://www.apologeticsindex.org/graphics/out4.gif

The Vineyard in May 1992, responded with Vineyard Position Paper #2: The Vineyard's Response to "The Briefing" (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/5951/PP2.html)http://www.apologeticsindex.org/graphics/out4.gif

During his time with the Vineyard, Deere promoted the concepts of what C. Peter Wagner (http://www.apologeticsindex.org/w00.html#wagner) termed the Third Wave. (http://www.apologeticsindex.org/581-third-wave)

Deere promotes the Toronto Blessing Movement (http://www.apologeticsindex.org/t00.html#tbm), including the Manifest Sons of God (http://www.apologeticsindex.org/m00.html#manifests) doctrine. According to information on Jack Deere's homepage (http://web.archive.org/web/20020208032703/http://www.efminc.org/index.html)http://www.apologeticsindex.org/graphics/out4.gif he is currently concentrating on writing and conducting "a conference ministry with Paul Cain (http://www.apologeticsindex.org/c00.html#cain) and Mike Bickle (http://www.apologeticsindex.org/b56.html)" (whose Grace Training Center (http://www.apologeticsindex.org/g00.html#gracemin) he endorses).

Deere has taught at Rick Joyner (http://www.apologeticsindex.org/j00.html#joyner)'s Morningstar School of Ministry (http://eaglestar.org/pages/MSM/school.html)http://www.apologeticsindex.org/graphics/out4.gif and, along with Francis Frangipane (http://www.apologeticsindex.org/f00.html#frangipane) had his itinerary (http://eaglestar.org/Itineraries.htm)http://www.apologeticsindex.org/graphics/out4.gif published at Rick Joyner's site.




Hey Poochie. Hope you had a good weekend. I am not really commenting about the quote above, it just served as a good place to jump back in the conversation.

As a side note, I was blessed today by baptizing my brother! Woo-hoo! He spent many years in church before he finally got saved. I am very excited about it.

Have you ever read any books by Jack Deere? He taught for many years at Dallas Theological Seminary. He wrote one book in particular called "Surprised by the Voice of God" that I really liked. He also wrote "Surprised by the Power of the Spirit". I like them both.

At some point, I hope we can discuss the concept of hearing God speak today. We've touched on it slightly in the past. But perhaps that's another thread. For now, I do have some questions that is related to this thread.

Do you believe the gift of healing was ever a gift? If so, do you believe it has ceased? And if you believe it has ceased, why do you believe so?

Thanks for the conversation.

Grace and peace,

Mark