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yaza
Jan 10th 2009, 09:02 PM
this is a simple question but is a source of a lot confusion in the church today. thanks in advance for your answers. yaza

jrick
Jan 10th 2009, 09:10 PM
Easy. Gosple can literally be translated as "Good News" (in fact, this is how the World English Bible, as well as others, translate it). The Gosple is the Good News of God becoming man and dying on the cross, and resurecting, so that those who believe in Him may be saved.

thepenitent
Jan 10th 2009, 09:10 PM
this is a simple question but is a source of a lot confusion in the church today. thanks in advance for your answers. yaza

See 1 Cor 15:1-5

chad
Jan 10th 2009, 09:12 PM
From Wikipedia : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel

In Christianity, a gospel (from Old English, " good news") is generally one of four canonical books of the New Testament that describe the birth, life, ministry, crucifixion, and resurrection of Jesus..

The four canonical texts are the Gospel of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, probably written between 65 and 100 AD. They appear to have been originally untitled; they were quoted anonymously in the first half of the second century (ie 100 - 150) but the names by which they are currently known appear suddenly around the year 180.

The first canonical gospel written is Mark (c 65-70), which was probably used as a source for the gospels of Matthew and Luke. Matthew and Luke appear also to have used a common source, the hypothetical Q document.

These first three gospels are called the synoptic gospels because they share a similar view. The last gospel, the gospel of John, presents a very different picture of Jesus and his ministry from the synoptics. Scholars maintain that the gospels and all the books of the New Testament were written in Greek.

humbled
Jan 10th 2009, 09:16 PM
I wrote this blog entry, which is one significant aspect of the gospel in my opinion.

http://reformedreasoning.blogspot.com/2008/11/what-is-gospel.html

theBelovedDisciple
Jan 10th 2009, 09:46 PM
this is a simple question but is a source of a lot confusion in the church today. thanks in advance for your answers. yaza


The Proclamation of the Grace and Mercy of God, manifested in the Person of Jesus the Christ, God manifest in the flesh, and His Salvation thru the belief of Jesus Christ's Atoning Work on the bloody tree and Faith in that... which took place on Golgotha..


The Good News is that He provided a 'Way'... and "Salvation"... and its thru His Son and His Name is Jesus... that thru Him.. there is 'repentance' and the 'remission of sins'.

BadDog
Jan 11th 2009, 01:28 AM
this is a simple question but is a source of a lot confusion in the church today. thanks in advance for your answers. yazaThe gospel is simple: Jesus Christ became a human being and died in our place for our sins so that we can receive the free gift of eternal life by faith... alone. It's a gift.

Don't let anyone convince you that works are involved in any way.

BD

amazzin
Jan 11th 2009, 01:34 AM
The gospel is simple: Jesus Christ became a human being and died in our place for our sins so that we can receive the free gift of eternal life by faith... alone. It's a gift.

Don't let anyone convince you that works are involved in any way.

BD

Works must follow salvation.

BadDog
Jan 11th 2009, 03:52 AM
Works must follow salvation.
Works will follow faith. And who can judge how much works will follow our having become a new creature? If they must follow salvation, then we are saved by works. And faith and even a little works is works:

Romans 11:6 Now if it is by grace, then it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace ceases to be grace.

BD

TrustingFollower
Jan 11th 2009, 04:25 AM
Works will follow faith. And who can judge how much works will follow our having become a new creature? If they must follow salvation, then we are saved by works. And faith and even a little works is works:

Romans 11:6 Now if it is by grace, then it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace ceases to be grace.

BD
Works is a product of faith. The simple act of believing in something that is not seen takes an action even if that action is only in your mind.

James 2

26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Sirus
Jan 11th 2009, 05:38 AM
Well, everyone has posted half the gospel. Anyone gonna post the other half?

Julian
Jan 11th 2009, 06:38 AM
See 1 Cor 15:1-5
Indeed!

Also see Romans 1:1-4 and Romans 10:4-17.

But it would appear, as Sirus may be alluding to - that the rest of the gospel is found in Ephesians 3:1-6, 1 Corinthians 15:51-55 and Thessalonians 4:13-18. Namely that the Gentiles should be fellowheirs and of the same body and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel - and that we shall all be changed at the return of our Lord Jesus Christ to meet him in the air and forever be with the Lord! (The hope of Christ's return)

I encourage anyone reading this thread to take a minute and read those sections yourself in light of the good news concerning Christ. For the messiah was finally born, died for our sins, was raised from the dead by God and God has indeed made him Lord. We ought to believe this and look forward to the hope of his return - all the while enjoying that the Gentiles (most of us posting here) are fellowheirs and of the same body (of Christ) and partakers of God's promise in Christ by the good news / gospel.

Sirus
Jan 11th 2009, 06:52 AM
Actually no, but good guess.... I was referring to Christ's death including our death burial and resurrection to newness of life here and now -born again. That it is effectual in this life experientially to free us from all sin here and now so that the righteousness in the law is fulfilled in us who believe and walk after the Spirit baptism into Christ. The shortest sweetest passage for this is....

2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
2Co 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
2Co 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Julian
Jan 11th 2009, 07:00 AM
Actually no, but good guess.... I was referring to Christ's death including our death burial and resurrection to newness of life here and now -born again. That it is effectual in this life experientially to free us from all sin here and now so that the righteousness in the law is fulfilled in us who believe and walk after the Spirit baptism into Christ. The shortest sweetest verse for this is....

2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
Good reminder.

This verse, that I mentioned, goes along as well:
Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

We sure weren't righteous before believing - and now look at what he has made us!

Sirus
Jan 11th 2009, 07:11 AM
Right but if the gospel doesn't in fact make a man righteous experientially then it is no better than the law that was weak through the flesh. But it is better and does make us righteous in experience because the flesh that made the law weak is crucified with Christ yet we live, but it is not us, but Christ in us, that we may bring forth fruit unto holiness.

crossnote
Jan 11th 2009, 07:32 AM
Right but if the gospel doesn't in fact make a man righteous experientially then it is no better than the law that was weak through the flesh. But it is better and does make us righteous in experience because the flesh that made the law weak is crucified with Christ yet we live, but it is not us, but Christ in us, that we may bring forth fruit unto holiness.

All good posts. One minor thing here though.The flesh did not make the law weak. The law is the law unmovable as it is. It was sin that made the flesh too weak to keep the law (Rom 7). Which gives segway to my additional point on what is the gospel.
It not only includes the forensic aspect of our guilt cancelled and righteousness applied but also what anciently was known as the aspect of Christ the Victor (Christus Victor) who conquered sin, death, the devil, the world and even the law's power over us to condemn us. So not only is the Gospel defined in a courtroom (Anselm) but also on a battleground (Luther and the early fathers).

shepherdsword
Jan 11th 2009, 09:14 AM
Jesus gave his all for me at Calvary..I take up my cross so he can teach me how to give my all for him.



I love Jesus

Sirus
Jan 11th 2009, 09:48 AM
All good posts. One minor thing here though.The flesh did not make the law weak. The law is the law unmovable as it is. It was sin that made the flesh too weak to keep the law (Rom 7). Which gives segway to my additional point on what is the gospel.
It not only includes the forensic aspect of our guilt cancelled and righteousness applied but also what anciently was known as the aspect of Christ the Victor (Christus Victor) who conquered sin, death, the devil, the world and even the law's power over us to condemn us. So not only is the Gospel defined in a courtroom (Anselm) but also on a battleground (Luther and the early fathers).

Sorry, but everyone knows the verse;
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

What is the it there? The law. The law was made weak through the flesh. You're right in that it doesn't say the law was weak. But to say "The flesh did not make the law weak." is very misleading since scripture says the opposite.

I will remind you that the law was added because of transgression and the law of faith preceded the law that was added to govern the flesh. So we find that since the law could not govern the flesh something had to give. That something was the flesh. Hence the rest of the verse......

.....God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

If the law could govern the flesh, Christ would not have needed to come in the likeness of sinful flesh to condemn flesh through crucifixion. This is so obvious it's even in the same verse!

You put Romans 7 in parenthesis saying;
"It was sin that made the flesh too weak to keep the law (Rom 7)"
Flesh has a law within itself. It's the law of sin in our members. So tell me, can a law in the flesh weaken flesh? Sure it can. Can it make law insufficient? Sure it can, and did. How? The sinless and innocent flesh nature is thrown into an environment of faith without God, full of the world and the god of this world. It most certainly will sin and is therefore (made) designated/ordained a sinner. Without God that is a certainty. So what made the flesh weak? A veiled relationship with God. Not sin. If sin made the flesh weak, why did Adam sin? He had flesh just as we do so...?

yaza
Jan 11th 2009, 04:05 PM
these are all good points, but all i was looking for was the death, burial and resurrection. and the belief in this, which only proves my point that we always want to add something else to the plan,and cause our brothers to stumble. thanks again yaza

Vhayes
Jan 11th 2009, 04:15 PM
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

That's the Good News of the gospel!

When asked, "What must I do to be saved?", the answer given by the Paul and Silas was:
Acts 16:31
They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Butch5
Jan 11th 2009, 04:55 PM
The gospel is simple: Jesus Christ became a human being and died in our place for our sins so that we can receive the free gift of eternal life by faith... alone. It's a gift.

Don't let anyone convince you that works are involved in any way.

BD

Not even Jesus?

Butch5
Jan 11th 2009, 05:01 PM
these are all good points, but all i was looking for was the death, burial and resurrection. and the belief in this, which only proves my point that we always want to add something else to the plan,and cause our brothers to stumble. thanks again yaza

My friend, the gospel is not just the death, burial, and resurrection. From Jesus own mouth,


Matthew 4:23 ( KJV ) 23And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.


Matthew 9:35 ( KJV ) 35And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.


Matthew 24:14 ( KJV ) 14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


Mark 1:14 ( KJV ) 14Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,


The gospel of the kingdom contains a lot more than just the death, burial, and resurrection. That is why there is so much confusion, people only focus on the death, burial, and resurrection.

yaza
Jan 11th 2009, 07:29 PM
My friend, the gospel is not just the death, burial, and resurrection. From Jesus own mouth,


Matthew 4:23 ( KJV ) 23And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.


Matthew 9:35 ( KJV ) 35And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.


Matthew 24:14 ( KJV ) 14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


Mark 1:14 ( KJV ) 14Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,


The gospel of the kingdom contains a lot more than just the death, burial, and resurrection. That is why there is so much confusion, people only focus on the death, burial, and resurrection.
there is only one gospel, it the story of god reconciling himself to humanity through the death burial resurrection. the kingdom of god is part of the gospel but not different. it is simple. christ took the sins of the world away, and bound satan,so we have a chance to believe and trust christ to be our savior. its that simple, god made it that way, anything else we add to it is just our misunderstanding and our need for more prayer and listening to the spirit, and not the understanding of men. without the death,we are still in our sins. without the burial, christ didnt fulfill the word. without the resurrection we are to be pittied and are liars concerning god and we have no hope. what more do we need? love yaza

yaza
Jan 11th 2009, 07:32 PM
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

That's the Good News of the gospel!

When asked, "What must I do to be saved?", the answer given by the Paul and Silas was:
Acts 16:31
They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
that is really cool the way you did that and you are so correct!

Sirus
Jan 11th 2009, 07:32 PM
these are all good points, but all i was looking for was the death, burial and resurrection. and the belief in this, which only proves my point that we always want to add something else to the plan,and cause our brothers to stumble. thanks again yazaSo then the Spirit through men added to the plan? Belief in the life, death, burial, and resurrection only makes us babes in Christ. Through Scripture which is good for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works, we grow because they are able to make us wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. Grow in the knowledge of Christ. Get off the milk and go on unto perfection.

1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

If all you ever feed a believer is milk, as they inevitably grow they become weak. Welcome to the Church!

1Co 3:1-3 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

So exactly what point of yours was proven?

Sirus
Jan 11th 2009, 07:45 PM
Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

So does going back under the law fall under
death
burial
resurrection
??? If that's all the gospel is???

Sirus
Jan 11th 2009, 07:49 PM
Rom 16:25-27 Now to him that is of power to establish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen.

Did Paul add to the gospel? What's the mystery of Christ? It's what I said earlier. It is the gospel. I have not added anything.....

Christ's death including our death burial and resurrection to newness of life here and now -born again. That it is effectual in this life experientially to free us from all sin here and now so that the righteousness in the law is fulfilled in us who believe and walk after the Spirit baptism into Christ. The shortest sweetest passage for this is....

2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
2Co 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
2Co 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Julian
Jan 12th 2009, 12:17 AM
Rom 16:25-27 Now to him that is of power to establish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen.

Did Paul add to the gospel? What's the mystery of Christ? It's what I said earlier. It is the gospel. I have not added anything.....

No Paul had the mystery revealed to him by God.

The mystery is what I posted earlier in this thread. Please go back and read the scripture references, especially from Ephesians 3:1-6 (I believe).

It is that the gentiles are fellow heirs and partakers of the promise of Christ - BY THE GOSPEL.

Butch5
Jan 12th 2009, 01:30 AM
there is only one gospel, it the story of god reconciling himself to humanity through the death burial resurrection. the kingdom of god is part of the gospel but not different. it is simple. christ took the sins of the world away, and bound satan,so we have a chance to believe and trust christ to be our savior. its that simple, god made it that way, anything else we add to it is just our misunderstanding and our need for more prayer and listening to the spirit, and not the understanding of men. without the death,we are still in our sins. without the burial, christ didnt fulfill the word. without the resurrection we are to be pittied and are liars concerning god and we have no hope. what more do we need? love yaza

We need "all" of the teaching of Christ.

Sirus
Jan 12th 2009, 01:44 AM
No Paul had the mystery revealed to him by God.

The mystery is what I posted earlier in this thread. Please go back and read the scripture references, especially from Ephesians 3:1-6 (I believe).

It is that the gentiles are fellow heirs and partakers of the promise of Christ - BY THE GOSPEL.Gentiles included in the Spirit baptism into Christ body is only part of the mystery.

Julian
Jan 12th 2009, 03:51 AM
Gentiles included in the Spirit baptism into Christ body is only part of the mystery.
Here is what I was referring to, especially that which hadn't been made known prior but that God made known to Paul:

Ephesians 3


1For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

And another important revelation regarding the mystery is revealed in 1 Corinthains:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

That must be a pretty big deal if the Lord of glory wouldn't have been crucified had that information been known!


And yet another place that speaks of the mystery - in this case the riches of the glory of it:
Colossians 1:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=58&chapter=1&verse=27&version=9&context=verse)
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory

What a great hope we have!

Sirus
Jan 12th 2009, 04:40 AM
Amen! I agree completely! However Christ in you the hope of glory involves so much more as seen in Col 1:27's -the riches of the glory

His riches in glory is not just that he died, was buried, raised, and ascended, or just that Gentiles are included, but that we were in him and with him throughout the entire trip so that we can partake of the same divine nature. That's all I have been saying. A gospel that is not effectual is great but much greater is the gospel of our Lord who has given us all things pertaining to life and godliness and given us a lively hope, providing a way of escape for every temptation -the cross.

Julian
Jan 12th 2009, 05:42 AM
Amen! I agree completely! However Christ in you the hope of glory involves so much more as seen in Col 1:27's -the riches of the glory

His riches in glory is not just that he died, was buried, raised, and ascended, or just that Gentiles are included, but that we were in him and with him throughout the entire trip so that we can partake of the same divine nature. That's all I have been saying. A gospel that is not effectual is great but much greater is the gospel of our Lord who has given us all things pertaining to life and godliness and given us a lively hope, providing a way of escape for every temptation -the cross.
Looks like you have a great understanding of how the gospel ties in throughout the NT scriptures and is applicable in our every day living - and our moment by moment walk with God.

Isn't it comforting and so helpful to see the way out of a temptation that God provides each time as we look to him? There have been so many times that I have held that truth in my mind and prayed that God would show me a way out and he has always been faithful to that promise. I guess the gospel in application is effectual indeed!

Sirus
Jan 12th 2009, 06:00 AM
Yes! And sooOOOOOoooo simple!
Truly a moment by moment walk with God.
It's always encouraging to hear of others that know and understand from experience that the preaching of the cross is the power of God to them that are saved.

God bless you!

crossnote
Jan 12th 2009, 06:32 AM
So then the Spirit through men added to the plan? Belief in the life, death, burial, and resurrection only makes us babes in Christ. ... Get off the milk and go on unto perfection.


If all you ever feed a believer is milk, as they inevitably grow they become weak. Welcome to the Church!


The Gospel is milk????? You have plumbed the depths of God's love delivered to you thru His death, burial and resurrection? I think that is a shallow statement.

Julian
Jan 12th 2009, 06:45 AM
The Gospel is milk?????
Good question.

I believe that one must at least believe the good news about Jesus to be born again - at least that he is the promised Messiah/Christ, that he died for us and God raised him from the dead and that person make him Lord in their life. That would be the starting point for a believer who just became a Christian and is on the milk of the word of God.

"Babes in Christ" is what Paul said, and therefore they would have had to be 'in Christ' - Christians in the first place - just starting off but at least Christians indeed and maybe only knowing the basics of the gospel. And then he says that he fed them with milk.

1 Cor 3:1-2 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

He didn't get into the meat and the mystery with them, but simply Jesus Christ and him crucified as we can see from chapters 2&3.

Sirus
Jan 12th 2009, 07:00 AM
what Julian said.....
after all God had to make it simple for man to get it, don't ya think? Look at how man messed up the law. It is not devaluing the most precious gift and act of love that can be given, but rather and acknowledgment that God is so much more. We make disciples of men. God makes apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelist.

ProjectPeter
Jan 12th 2009, 02:00 PM
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

That's the Good News of the gospel!

When asked, "What must I do to be saved?", the answer given by the Paul and Silas was:
Acts 16:31
They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Acts 16:32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house.


Do you think Paul just did a John 3:16 type thing here or do you think Paul was consistent with other times he shared on faith in Christ?

Acts 24:24 ¶But some days later, Felix arrived with Drusilla, his wife who was a Jewess, and sent for Paul, and heard him speak about faith in Christ Jesus.
25 And as he was discussing righteousness, self-control and the judgment to come, Felix became frightened and said, "Go away for the present, and when I find time, I will summon you."

ProjectPeter
Jan 12th 2009, 02:03 PM
these are all good points, but all i was looking for was the death, burial and resurrection. and the belief in this, which only proves my point that we always want to add something else to the plan,and cause our brothers to stumble. thanks again yaza

1 Timothy 1:8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,
9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers
10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,
11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.


If all of these things Paul speaks of (and other things) are contrary to sound teaching ACCORDING to the gospel... please tell me how it is that the gospel is only the way you describe it.

Your definition has been weighed in the balance and found wanting. ;)

ProjectPeter
Jan 12th 2009, 02:04 PM
Actually no, but good guess.... I was referring to Christ's death including our death burial and resurrection to newness of life here and now -born again. That it is effectual in this life experientially to free us from all sin here and now so that the righteousness in the law is fulfilled in us who believe and walk after the Spirit baptism into Christ. The shortest sweetest passage for this is....

2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
2Co 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
2Co 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.Very good post.

kenrank
Jan 12th 2009, 02:13 PM
this is a simple question but is a source of a lot confusion in the church today. thanks in advance for your answers. yaza

And there is one simple answer:

Mat 4:17 From that time Yahushua (Jesus) began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

While his life, death, and resurrection are part of the teaching, the message is, that salvation is free to anyone should they hear and obey the message Yahushua gave, which was, "repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

Peace.
Ken

Vhayes
Jan 12th 2009, 02:44 PM
Acts 16:32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house.


Do you think Paul just did a John 3:16 type thing here or do you think Paul was consistent with other times he shared on faith in Christ?

Acts 24:24 ¶But some days later, Felix arrived with Drusilla, his wife who was a Jewess, and sent for Paul, and heard him speak about faith in Christ Jesus.
25 And as he was discussing righteousness, self-control and the judgment to come, Felix became frightened and said, "Go away for the present, and when I find time, I will summon you."

I'm not sure what you are asking here, I guess. Should we tell others about the various facets of the Christian life? Certainly. Otherwise we see people born and leave them with no food to grow. But the Good News, at least to me, is that Christ died for our sins - salvation is a gift.

If a person has to know all the aspects of what being a Christian means before they are considered saved, then we have a whole lot of unsaved people who believe they are saved yet are learning daily.

What do you believe the Good News of the gospel to be?
V

ProjectPeter
Jan 12th 2009, 02:46 PM
I'm not sure what you are asking here, I guess. Should we tell others about the various facets of the Christian life? Certainly. Otherwise we see people born and leave them with no food to grow. But the Good News, at least to me, is that Christ died for our sins - salvation is a gift.

If a person has to know all the aspects of what being a Christian means before they are considered saved, then we have a whole lot of unsaved people who believe they are saved yet are learning daily.

What do you believe the Good News of the gospel to be?
V
Repent and turn to God... do deeds worthy of that repentance. Would you disagree with that for a start?

Vhayes
Jan 12th 2009, 02:58 PM
Repent and turn to God... do deeds worthy of that repentance. Would you disagree with that for a start?
Actually, yes, I do disagree with it. Or at least I think I do. Written words are sometimes hard to follow. There have been times I have disagreed with someone only to find out later that we were saying the same thing all along, just saying it differently.

Do I believe one has to turn from their sins BEFORE they are saved? Nope. Not at all. Do I think they have to realize they have sinned in their lifetime? Yep - but I haven't met many people who think they are perfect in every way. If the Holy Spirit has been working, a person KNOWS when they hear that Christ died for THEIR sins, they know exactly WHAT those sins are/were.

Does that make sense?
V

ProjectPeter
Jan 12th 2009, 03:15 PM
Actually, yes, I do disagree with it. Or at least I think I do. Written words are sometimes hard to follow. There have been times I have disagreed with someone only to find out later that we were saying the same thing all along, just saying it differently.

Do I believe one has to turn from their sins BEFORE they are saved? Nope. Not at all. Do I think they have to realize they have sinned in their lifetime? Yep - but I haven't met many people who think they are perfect in every way. If the Holy Spirit has been working, a person KNOWS when they hear that Christ died for THEIR sins, they know exactly WHAT those sins are/were.

Does that make sense?
V
Not really. If a person hasn't turned from their sin then how have they turned to God?

drew
Jan 12th 2009, 03:44 PM
I have not read all the posts, but those I have read give an answer that Paul would not agree with (regarding what "the gospel" is).

On the matter of precisely what Paul meant by the term “gospel”, here is Romans 1:2-4

2the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, 4and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. 5 Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace....

Note how Paul says that that the gospel is something about Jesus, not something about how we might benefit from that. Then Paul goes on to indeed elaborate the content of the gospel in terms of who Jesus is, not about how that affects us. He reaches the end of his sentence about the gospel at the end of verse 4 (note the period there). Nowhere does Paul make any statement about us, except that Jesus is Lord over us. And more specifically, nowhere does Paul make any claim about “how we get saved” in this statement about the gospel. So people are free to define the “gospel” as “you can be saved by faith in Jesus” – it’s a free country. But that is not how Paul uses the term.

Now to address verse 5: Assuming that we understand the "receiving of grace" as entailing salvation, we see that Paul is saying that we get salvation through Jesus. And then we properly understand verse 2-4 as asserting that the content of the gospel is about who Jesus is - the Davidic Messiah whose resurrection constitutes Him as Lord of the world - and that grace is something we get through this Jesus. So the "gospel" is not "grace or salvation by faith" - it is what Paul says it is here (statements about Jesus) and "through" this very same Jesus, we attain grace.

For Paul, "the gospel" is basically the announcement that "Jesus is Lord". It is not the good news about how we can be saved by faith in Jesus. Of course, this is indeed good news, but it is not "the gospel", at least not according to Paul.

ProjectPeter
Jan 12th 2009, 03:48 PM
I have not read all the posts, but those I have read give an answer that Paul would not agree with (regarding what "the gospel" is).

On the matter of precisely what Paul meant by the term “gospel”, here is Romans 1:2-4

2the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, 4and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. 5 Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace....

Note how Paul says that that the gospel is something about Jesus, not something about how we might benefit from that. Then Paul goes on to indeed elaborate the content of the gospel in terms of who Jesus is, not about how that affects us. He reaches the end of his sentence about the gospel at the end of verse 4 (note the period there). Nowhere does Paul make any statement about us, except that Jesus is Lord over us. And more specifically, nowhere does Paul make any claim about “how we get saved” in this statement about the gospel. So people are free to define the “gospel” as “you can be saved by faith in Jesus” – it’s a free country. But that is not how Paul uses the term.

Now to address verse 5: Assuming that we understand the "receiving of grace" as entailing salvation, we see that Paul is saying that we get salvation through Jesus. And then we properly understand verse 2-4 as asserting that the content of the gospel is about who Jesus is - the Davidic Messiah whose resurrection constitutes Him as Lord of the world - and that grace is something we get through this Jesus. So the "gospel" is not "grace or salvation by faith" - it is what Paul says it is here (statements about Jesus) and "through" this very same Jesus, we attain grace.

For Paul, "the gospel" is basically the announcement that "Jesus is Lord". It is not the good news about how we can be saved by faith in Jesus. Of course, this is indeed good news, but it is not "the gospel", at least not according to Paul.
Now there you go!!! THis is a very good start and I hope folks actually read and comprehend what it is that you are saying here.

theBelovedDisciple
Jan 12th 2009, 03:59 PM
Again .. its the Proclamation (the heralding) of the Grace/Mercy of God thru His Son who was Crucified for the remission of sins... the sprinkling of blood... Salvation is thru Him and Him only...
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those proclaiming the Good News have always and will always preach.. repent , turn from your sins and believe.. the Good News.. the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.. they are 'moved' by the Holy Ghost to do this...

The 'power of God'.. the foundation of the Gospel is
Christ Crucifed: >>>>>>>>> the power of God..

foolishness to the Greeks
stumblingstone to the Jews..

but to those who are saved... the power of God..

Paul said he 'preached' this... Christ Crucified...

Look back to Acts when Peter stood up and spoke to those first crowds... Preaching Christ Crucifed... then telling the crowds.. to Repent and turn from your sins. He preached under the 'guidance of the Holy Ghost'... it is He who draws and converts and empowers. Those hearts on whom the Spirit was drawing and working on.. repented and believed..... Peter stated that their was no other 'name' in which Salvation may be found and that repentance and the remission of sins is available thru belief and faith in His Work on that bloody tree and this beginning in Jerusalem.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
John the Baptist preached.. as the 'forerunner' to the Christ..
Repent ... for the Kingdom of Heaven is at Hand..

Jesus preached: Repent and believe the Good News.. The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand... He is the Kingdom... Salvation has come.. and it was Him.. but they did not understand about Him being 'crucified'.. and raised again 3 days later. Until He 'opened' their understanding to the Scriptures.

as the Bible declares before He returns again He will send His messengers to 'announce' that He is returing in Glory and Splendor and Power.. from Heaven... literally and physically.. warning those to turn from their sins and repent.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
The Good News is that God has provided a Way.. and that is thru His Son and what He has accomplished and that you may have remission and forgiveness of sins thru faith and belief in what He accomplished on that bloody tree.... repent and believe the Good News.. the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

drew
Jan 12th 2009, 04:05 PM
Again .. its the Proclamation (the heralding) of the Grace/Mercy of God thru His Son who was Crucified for the remission of sins... the sprinkling of blood... Salvation is thru Him and Him only....
Please tell us where the scriptures ever define the term "gospel" as this.

What you say is true, but it is not "the gospel" as the writers of the New Testament used this term.

yaza
Jan 12th 2009, 09:47 PM
Actually, yes, I do disagree with it. Or at least I think I do. Written words are sometimes hard to follow. There have been times I have disagreed with someone only to find out later that we were saying the same thing all along, just saying it differently.

Do I believe one has to turn from their sins BEFORE they are saved? Nope. Not at all. Do I think they have to realize they have sinned in their lifetime? Yep - but I haven't met many people who think they are perfect in every way. If the Holy Spirit has been working, a person KNOWS when they hear that Christ died for THEIR sins, they know exactly WHAT those sins are/were.

Does that make sense?
V
wow!! talking about grace here,i think? gods unmerited favor,what can we do? we cant even obey. the only thing we can is believe with the faith that god gives us. love yaza

BadDog
Jan 13th 2009, 01:26 AM
Right but if the gospel doesn't in fact make a man righteous experientially then it is no better than the law that was weak through the flesh. But it is better and does make us righteous in experience because the flesh that made the law weak is crucified with Christ yet we live, but it is not us, but Christ in us, that we may bring forth fruit unto holiness.I wasn't sure what you meant by the other 1/2 of the gospel... if you were thinking of something we need to do in addition to what Christ did in our behalf, I was prepared to call that man's gospel.

But to refer to what results in our life because of the gospel... well, that is certainly worth voicing.

BD

crossnote
Jan 13th 2009, 06:29 AM
what Julian said.....
after all God had to make it simple for man to get it, don't ya think? Look at how man messed up the law. It is not devaluing the most precious gift and act of love that can be given, but rather and acknowledgment that God is so much more. We make disciples of men. God makes apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelist.

Yes on the one hand a child can embrace it; yet on the other it has such depths (e.g. God becoming man to die for the wretches he made) that the wisest sages cannot plumb the depths of His love.
A note: The gospel is not something we start with as babes in Christ and then go on 'to meatier' things. The gospel is the Good News we start with,yes, but we carry it close to our bosom daily drawing comfort and hope and our source of motivation..e.g., We love Him because He first loved us. And where did he reveal that love the greatest? "No greater love has a man than that he lay down his life for another. I can go on but don't get me started. The Gospel is not just milk it is the warp and woof of our walk with Him. Last example, the only reason we have access in prayer to the Father is through the new way inaugurated by the shed blood of our Savior. OK I've said enough.

Sirus
Jan 14th 2009, 01:27 AM
Last example, the only reason we have access in prayer to the Father is through the new way inaugurated by the shed blood of our Savior. OK I've said enough.Really? How did they pray before?

Jam 5:17 Elijah was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.

Regardless of your post, scripture is clear on babes/milk-adults/meat. His love always at the forefront, don't change that, but rather encourages growing up.

reformedct
Jan 14th 2009, 01:31 AM
The gospel is GOOD NEWS! lol so if what you preach doesnt result in joy to those who believe you got somethin else! just my two cents:P

Its all about Jesus! The whole shebang haha

ProjectPeter
Jan 14th 2009, 01:34 AM
The gospel is GOOD NEWS! lol so if what you preach doesnt result in joy to those who believe you got somethin else! just my two cents:P

Its all about Jesus! The whole shebang haha
Why does it just have to be joy?

crossnote
Jan 14th 2009, 06:45 AM
Really? How did they pray before?

Jam 5:17 Elijah was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.

Regardless of your post, scripture is clear on babes/milk-adults/meat. His love always at the forefront, don't change that, but rather encourages growing up.

They had access the same way we do..it's based on the shed blood of the Lamb of God which btw works backwards in time as well as forwards. Their visible means was the shed blood of the Levitical sacrifices. If it is not so how were the OT saints sins forgiven since the blood of bulls and goats cannot forgive sin? Answer: The shed blood of Christ who was foreordained before the foundation of the earth. Though he shed it in time 2000 years ago, it's working power knows no time barriers.

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
(1Pe 1:18-20)

revrobor
Jan 14th 2009, 07:30 AM
The entire Gospel (Good News) is contained in John 3:16. The only reason there is confusion is that after men established religious institutions ("churches") they decided that their pet doctrines and requirements for salvation had to be added to the Pure Gospel watering it down and forever confusing the issue.

ProjectPeter
Jan 14th 2009, 12:37 PM
The entire Gospel (Good News) is contained in John 3:16. The only reason there is confusion is that after men established religious institutions ("churches") they decided that their pet doctrines and requirements for salvation had to be added to the Pure Gospel watering it down and forever confusing the issue.
Imagine that... John, Peter, Paul... all that waste of time with all of those other words when lo and behold... five second sermon and they could have been done!!!!

Nah... that isn't all. If that was the case then there would only be one thing contrary to the gospel and that would be unbelief. Yet we know that sin is contrary to the gospel and that particular aspect of the gospel isn't in John 3:16 alone. Don't want to cheapen the verse because it isn't cheap. But it ain't all either.

yaza
Jan 14th 2009, 03:03 PM
The entire Gospel (Good News) is contained in John 3:16. The only reason there is confusion is that after men established religious institutions ("churches") they decided that their pet doctrines and requirements for salvation had to be added to the Pure Gospel watering it down and forever confusing the issue.
thats just what i was thinking! we are called to keep a pure doctrine. great post

BadDog
Jan 15th 2009, 02:10 AM
The gospel is simple: Jesus Christ became a human being and died in our place for our sins so that we can receive the free gift of eternal life by faith... alone. It's a gift.

Don't let anyone convince you that works are involved in any way.

BD


Not even Jesus?
:rofl:
I am basing my convictions on the Word of God.

Ephesians 2:8, 9 For by grace we have been saved through faith and that not of ourselves. It is a gift of God, not because of works, lest anyone should boast.

If works were involved in any way in our salvation, that would be something we could boast about. We are changed when we trust in Christ--we become a child of God--and naturally works follow. But they follow the change brought about by God's grace alone through faith alone.

BD

yaza
Jan 16th 2009, 09:16 PM
Imagine that... John, Peter, Paul... all that waste of time with all of those other words when lo and behold... five second sermon and they could have been done!!!!

Nah... that isn't all. If that was the case then there would only be one thing contrary to the gospel and that would be unbelief. Yet we know that sin is contrary to the gospel and that particular aspect of the gospel isn't in John 3:16 alone. Don't want to cheapen the verse because it isn't cheap. But it ain't all either.
it only took them five seconds to give them the gospel,then he spent the rest of the time explaining how this could be. remember if anyone preaches any other gospel even an angel from heaven do not accept them. there is only one gospel. god bless

ProjectPeter
Jan 16th 2009, 09:29 PM
it only took them five seconds to give them the gospel,then he spent the rest of the time explaining how this could be. remember if anyone preaches any other gospel even an angel from heaven do not accept them. there is only one gospel. god bless
Really? Tell me this then...

8 *But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,
9 *realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers
10 *and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,
11 *according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.


How are those things contrary to your idea of this five second gospel?

RabbiKnife
Jan 16th 2009, 09:37 PM
Jesus preached the Gospel of the Kingdom.

revrobor
Jan 17th 2009, 01:07 AM
Imagine that... John, Peter, Paul... all that waste of time with all of those other words when lo and behold... five second sermon and they could have been done!!!!

Nah... that isn't all. If that was the case then there would only be one thing contrary to the gospel and that would be unbelief. Yet we know that sin is contrary to the gospel and that particular aspect of the gospel isn't in John 3:16 alone. Don't want to cheapen the verse because it isn't cheap. But it ain't all either.

Don't confuse the Gospel with doctrine, the Law, church tradition or ordinances or instructions for spiritual growth. The Good News is that we have been offered eternal life because of God's love for us. That is the Gospel and that is John 3:16. Nothing else has to do with our being offered eternal life and what God did to provide us with that salvation, not doctrine, not the Law, not church tradition or ordinances and not instructions for spiritual growth. You and many others seem to like to stuff such things into the meaning of the word "Gospel" for reasons known only to yourselves but they don't fit and only serve to create confusion around that simple truth.

ProjectPeter
Jan 17th 2009, 01:22 PM
Don't confuse the Gospel with doctrine, the Law, church tradition or ordinances or instructions for spiritual growth. The Good News is that we have been offered eternal life because of God's love for us. That is the Gospel and that is John 3:16. Nothing else has to do with our being offered eternal life and what God did to provide us with that salvation, not doctrine, not the Law, not church tradition or ordinances and not instructions for spiritual growth. You and many others seem to like to stuff such things into the meaning of the word "Gospel" for reasons known only to yourselves but they don't fit and only serve to create confusion around that simple truth.
Couple of questions for you.

1. Paul did in fact say that those things were CONTRARY to the gospel... did he not?

2. If they are "CONTRARY" to the gospel then how is that possible if they aren't anywhere in the "gospel?"

3. If John 3:16 was enough and that was the gospel... period... Why didn't John just stop there instead of writing all the rest of the stuff that he wrote... even in just that chapter alone?

thethinker
Jan 17th 2009, 05:17 PM
From Wikipedia : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel

In Christianity, a gospel (from Old English, " good news") is generally one of four canonical books of the New Testament that describe the birth, life, ministry, crucifixion, and resurrection of Jesus..

The four canonical texts are the Gospel of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, probably written between 65 and 100 AD. They appear to have been originally untitled; they were quoted anonymously in the first half of the second century (ie 100 - 150) but the names by which they are currently known appear suddenly around the year 180.

The first canonical gospel written is Mark (c 65-70), which was probably used as a source for the gospels of Matthew and Luke. Matthew and Luke appear also to have used a common source, the hypothetical Q document.

These first three gospels are called the synoptic gospels because they share a similar view. The last gospel, the gospel of John, presents a very different picture of Jesus and his ministry from the synoptics. Scholars maintain that the gospels and all the books of the New Testament were written in Greek.

Chad,
Your reply to the question "What is the gospel?" is vague. You refer to the gospel of "Jesus Christ". However, there is also the gospel of Paul. The gospel of Jesus Christ was for the Jews alone and is no longer in effect. But the gospel of Paul is universal to all men and is the "everlasting gospel".

Paul's gospel proclaims that justification is by faith APART from the works of the law. Jesus never taught this. Jesus went only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel and taught conditional forgiveness to them. But Paul taught that forgiveness is unconditional by the instrument of faith and is available to all races of men indiscriminately.

The failure to comprehend that Jesus taught only to the house of Israel while the law of Moses was still in effect, along with the failure to see that Paul taught that the law of Moses had been fulfilled by Christ in the behalf of all races of men results in men asking, "What is the Gospel"? God is not the author of confusion. He never wanted us to be in doubt about His gospel!

So Paul's teachings trump Jesus' teachings because the sacrifice of Jesus trumped the regulations of Moses which Jesus taught.

God be with you,
thinker

yaza
Jan 17th 2009, 06:20 PM
Really? Tell me this then...

8 *But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,
9 *realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers
10 *and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,
11 *according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.


How are those things contrary to your idea of this five second gospel?
1 christ died to fulfill the law and prophets,to take away the sins of the world.
2 such as we were, before we heard the gospel and believed.
3 christ was buried according to the scripture{law and prophets}
4 christ was raised according to the scripture.
5 so what? anybody can say anything,but this gospel comes with power,the power of a changed life and hope.
when you believe this, then you are saved and are given the spirit of god who will teach you. there is no other gospel. gal 1:6-7 yaza out

ProjectPeter
Jan 17th 2009, 06:27 PM
1 christ died to fulfill the law and prophets,to take away the sins of the world.
2 such as we were, before we heard the gospel and believed.
3 christ was buried according to the scripture{law and prophets}
4 christ was raised according to the scripture.
5 so what? anybody can say anything,but this gospel comes with power,the power of a changed life and hope.
when you believe this, then you are saved and are given the spirit of god who will teach you. there is no other gospel. gal 1:6-7 yaza out
Again... why not address the passage that specifically says that those things were contrary to the gospel. If those things are contrary to the gospel and yet nothing mentioned about those type things in your gospel... what sort of gospel are you preaching? Wouldn't your gospel in fact be contrary to the gospel that Paul preached?

revrobor
Jan 17th 2009, 06:32 PM
Couple of questions for you.

1. Paul did in fact say that those things were CONTRARY to the gospel... did he not?

2. If they are "CONTRARY" to the gospel then how is that possible if they aren't anywhere in the "gospel?"

3. If John 3:16 was enough and that was the gospel... period... Why didn't John just stop there instead of writing all the rest of the stuff that he wrote... even in just that chapter alone?

Paul gave us instruction and teachings we need to grow spiritually and walk in obedience AFTER we accept the truth of the Gospel. "Contrary" means "opposed to". the Gospel does not contain anything that is opposed to itself.

yaza
Jan 17th 2009, 06:32 PM
Jesus preached the Gospel of the Kingdom.
then why did you not believe him? his kingdom did come and he is sitting on his throne ruling the universe. he is just waiting to hand the kingdom back to the father when the end comes. he was crowned king at birth and the people of this kingdom are people that believe in him. quick and dead only two. god bless

Jemand
Jan 17th 2009, 06:37 PM
Amen! I agree completely! However Christ in you the hope of glory involves so much more as seen in Col 1:27's -the riches of the glory

His riches in glory is not just that he died, was buried, raised, and ascended, or just that Gentiles are included, but that we were in him and with him throughout the entire trip so that we can partake of the same divine nature. That's all I have been saying. A gospel that is not effectual is great but much greater is the gospel of our Lord who has given us all things pertaining to life and godliness and given us a lively hope, providing a way of escape for every temptation -the cross.


Amen! Thank you for this superb post, and also for your other excellent posts in this thread.

Vhayes
Jan 17th 2009, 06:41 PM
You must repent - change your ways or you are bound for hell - you should be ashamed of the way you have acted - there are so many things you must learn and do to be saved - you must behave in a certain fashion...

Yep - that's all really good news...

The Good News is just that; Good News.

If the Good News is understood in it's simplicity, then even more Good News will follow - living the Spirit filled life and producing the fruit of the Spirit.

theBelovedDisciple
Jan 17th 2009, 06:57 PM
then why did you not believe him? his kingdom did come and he is sitting on his throne ruling the universe. he is just waiting to hand the kingdom back to the father when the end comes. he was crowned king at birth and the people of this kingdom are people that believe in him. quick and dead only two. god bless
----------------------------------------------------------------

When Jesus was before Pontious Pilate.. He witnessed and testifited that He was indeed a King.. but He stated that 'His Kingdom' was not of this world.. if it was.. then His own servants would not let Him be taken and would fight for Him... and He demonstrated that when Peter took the sword and cut off the servant's ear in the Garden at His arrest..... Jesus rebuked Him..and told Him.. 'Put your swords away...' shall not I drink of the cup my Father hath given Me? all who take up the sword shall perish by the sword...... Jesus spoke of the Kingdom.. but His Kingdom was not of this world.. the Gospels respresent two Kingdoms in conflict... the 'real' Kingdom of Heaven.. and the 'kingdom' of the god of this world.. its a kingdom of spiritual darkness.. penetrated by the Light of the World and manfitested when when He tabernacled here in the flesh the First time.. and when one is 'Truly Born again from Heaven.. then you have 'Light' in that person.. the Kingdom of Heaven thru Jesus which lives in that person.. invading darkness once again... No wonder satan hates the New Birth so much...In the Book of Revelation you see the revealing of the Kingdom of Heaven coming from Heaven with its armies but not as the 'babe' in the manger and the suffering servant of Isaiah... but... returning in Power and Glory...His Vesture dipped in Blood.. treading out the 'winpress of the Wrath of Almighty God'.... and those that are alive on this earth will literally see it...

yaza
Jan 17th 2009, 06:58 PM
Again... why not address the passage that specifically says that those things were contrary to the gospel. If those things are contrary to the gospel and yet nothing mentioned about those type things in your gospel... what sort of gospel are you preaching? Wouldn't your gospel in fact be contrary to the gospel that Paul preached?
you are so discounting the spirit's work in a believer's life. of course the gospel is not cotrary to the old test. but a gathering of all of gods people and the destruction of the world again to save these people he sent his son and so on and so on.we were reconciled through the death of his son,dead and buried,raised just like jesus was. this is what my hope is. and i stake my life on this alone. love yaza

thethinker
Jan 17th 2009, 07:01 PM
Originally Posted by Sirus http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1940324#post1940324)
Amen! I agree completely! However Christ in you the hope of glory involves so much more as seen in Col 1:27's -the riches of the glory
His riches in glory is not just that he died, was buried, raised, and ascended, or just that Gentiles are included, but that we were in him and with him throughout the entire trip so that we can partake of the same divine nature. That's all I have been saying. A gospel that is not effectual is great but much greater is the gospel of our Lord who has given us all things pertaining to life and godliness and given us a lively hope, providing a way of escape for every temptation -the cross.

Jemand replied
Amen! Thank you for this superb post, and also for your other excellent posts in this thread.
However, the gospel is about justification which has nothing to do with any post-salvation experiences. Paul defned it clearly in saying that justification is APART from the works of the law. The gospel is therefore NOT about how good or bad you feel about yourself. It is about God's objective declaration that He has justified you and saved you objectively outside yourself.

Yet we will always be tormented by modern day Judaizers as the early church was tormented. They constantly tell us that we can contribute something in addition to Christ's work. When will God's people understand that their mere getting up from the bed in the morning is sin to God and that no "obedience" they offer is ever enough?

thinker

thethinker
Jan 17th 2009, 07:08 PM
You must repent - change your ways or you are bound for hell - you should be ashamed of the way you have acted - there are so many things you must learn and do to be saved - you must behave in a certain fashion...

Yep - that's all really good news...

The Good News is just that; Good News.

If the Good News is understood in it's simplicity, then even more Good News will follow - living the Spirit filled life and producing the fruit of the Spirit.
Wow! Have you all noticed that not one word of Christ's sacrifice in our behalf is mentioned?

thinker

Sirus
Jan 17th 2009, 07:09 PM
However, the gospel is about justification which has nothing to do with any post-salvation experiences. Paul defned it clearly in saying that justification is APART from the works of the law. The gospel is therefore NOT about how good or bad you feel about yourself. It is about God's objective declaration that He has justified you and saved you objectively outside yourself.That's only part of the gospel. The same faith that we are justified by is the same faith that we are sanctified by, and both were accomplished by Christ in the one complete and finished work. That's why it says we "are sanctified by faith". If it was just justification He wouldn't also be our sanctification and redemption.

Jemand
Jan 17th 2009, 07:28 PM
Rom. 1:16. For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
17. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.” (NASB, 1995)

I like Paul’s definition of the gospel that he gave to us here. The gospel “is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.” It is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes because it reveals from faith to faith the righteousness of God; “as it is written, ‘BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.’”

Jemand
Jan 17th 2009, 07:42 PM
Jemand replied
However, the gospel is about justification which has nothing to do with any post-salvation experiences. Paul defned it clearly in saying that justification is APART from the works of the law. The gospel is therefore NOT about how good or bad you feel about yourself. It is about God's objective declaration that He has justified you and saved you objectively outside yourself.

Yet we will always be tormented by modern day Judaizers as the early church was tormented. They constantly tell us that we can contribute something in addition to Christ's work. When will God's people understand that their mere getting up from the bed in the morning is sin to God and that no "obedience" they offer is ever enough?

thinker

The gospel is not merely about our justification—it is about our salvation from sin and its consequences; our salvation that is not found in the works of the Old Testament Law, but is found through our faith in and obedience to Christ, obedience which is an integral and inseparable part of that faith.

theBelovedDisciple
Jan 17th 2009, 07:42 PM
Jemand replied
However, the gospel is about justification which has nothing to do with any post-salvation experiences. Paul defned it clearly in saying that justification is APART from the works of the law. The gospel is therefore NOT about how good or bad you feel about yourself. It is about God's objective declaration that He has justified you and saved you objectively outside yourself.

Yet we will always be tormented by modern day Judaizers as the early church was tormented. They constantly tell us that we can contribute something in addition to Christ's work. When will God's people understand that their mere getting up from the bed in the morning is sin to God and that no "obedience" they offer is ever enough?

thinker


Well Put thinker! Excellent post! amen and amen...

ProjectPeter
Jan 17th 2009, 07:42 PM
Paul gave us instruction and teachings we need to grow spiritually and walk in obedience AFTER we accept the truth of the Gospel. "Contrary" means "opposed to". the Gospel does not contain anything that is opposed to itself.
And you totally didn't even close to address the point of the question. If Paul says those things are CONTRARY to the gospel that he preached... how can that be if Paul just preached believe and you're in!!! The only thing contrary to that is "don't believe and you're not in." Obviously Paul preached a bit more than just John 3:16 don't you think?

ProjectPeter
Jan 17th 2009, 07:46 PM
you are so discounting the spirit's work in a believer's life. of course the gospel is not cotrary to the old test. but a gathering of all of gods people and the destruction of the world again to save these people he sent his son and so on and so on.we were reconciled through the death of his son,dead and buried,raised just like jesus was. this is what my hope is. and i stake my life on this alone. love yazaI am not discounting anything at all. What I am doing is asking you a question about a specific passage of Scripture written by the Apostle Paul which speaks about the gospel that he preached. Again... why not actually address that passage in 1 Timothy. So far... the couple of folk that I have asked this to are avoiding it like it carries the plague. Does that passage frighten you perhaps? Perhaps it kicks a doctrinal cow right in the fanny? Why not just address the passage what with this being a place we discuss the Bible. We've heard clearly your opinion on this... what about what the BIble actually says? ;)

theBelovedDisciple
Jan 17th 2009, 08:01 PM
Wow! Have you all noticed that not one word of Christ's sacrifice in our behalf is mentioned?

thinker

thinker.. my previous post on page 1......
Quote:
Originally Posted by yaza http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1938630#post1938630)
this is a simple question but is a source of a lot confusion in the church today. thanks in advance for your answers. yaza


The Proclamation of the Grace and Mercy of God, manifested in the Person of Jesus the Christ, God manifest in the flesh, and His Salvation thru the belief of Jesus Christ's Atoning Work on the bloody tree and Faith in that... which took place on Golgotha..


The Good News is that He provided a 'Way'... and "Salvation"... and its thru His Son and His Name is Jesus... that thru Him.. there is 'repentance' and the 'remission of sins'.
__________________
The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying. YEA, I have loved thee with an everlasting love; therefore with LOVINGKINDESS have I DRAWN THEE.

Jeremiah 31:3

revrobor
Jan 17th 2009, 08:18 PM
And you totally didn't even close to address the point of the question. If Paul says those things are CONTRARY to the gospel that he preached... how can that be if Paul just preached believe and you're in!!! The only thing contrary to that is "don't believe and you're not in." Obviously Paul preached a bit more than just John 3:16 don't you think?

I did indeed address it it my first sentence. All that Paul preached and taught was not the Gospel.

ProjectPeter
Jan 17th 2009, 08:22 PM
I did indeed address it it my first sentence. All that Paul preached and taught was not the Gospel.
Paul specifically said that those specific things (and others) were contrary to the gospel. If it was contrary to the gospel that Paul preached... how could it not be part of the gospel that Paul preached? Again... the only thing contrary to believe and confess is don't believe and don't confess. Isn't it obvious that Paul's gospel contained more than just what you are saying.

Another example... Acts 24:24 and 25. Paul tells them of faith in Christ and speaks of righteousness, self-control and the judgment to come. Wouldn't that be much more fitting to what Paul tells Timothy and since those things are not righteous... part of Paul's gospel contained repent and turn to God and do deeds worthy of repentance?

revrobor
Jan 17th 2009, 09:17 PM
Paul specifically said that those specific things (and others) were contrary to the gospel. If it was contrary to the gospel that Paul preached... how could it not be part of the gospel that Paul preached? Again... the only thing contrary to believe and confess is don't believe and don't confess. Isn't it obvious that Paul's gospel contained more than just what you are saying.

Another example... Acts 24:24 and 25. Paul tells them of faith in Christ and speaks of righteousness, self-control and the judgment to come. Wouldn't that be much more fitting to what Paul tells Timothy and since those things are not righteous... part of Paul's gospel contained repent and turn to God and do deeds worthy of repentance?

I'd be interested to see how you explain that something contrary to the Gospel is part of the Gospel.

ProjectPeter
Jan 17th 2009, 10:04 PM
I'd be interested to see how you explain that something contrary to the Gospel is part of the Gospel.
How can unrighteousness be contrary to the gospel if righteousness is not part of the gospel?

voicenthewildernes
Jan 17th 2009, 10:13 PM
Right but if the gospel doesn't in fact make a man righteous experientially then it is no better than the law that was weak through the flesh. But it is better and does make us righteous in experience because the flesh that made the law weak is crucified with Christ yet we live, but it is not us, but Christ in us, that we may bring forth fruit unto holiness.
Lest we forget that Christ said, "If you love me keep my commandments". Hard to get away from those harsh words about keeping the Law when Jesus Himself tells you too!


Voice

thethinker
Jan 17th 2009, 10:15 PM
The gospel is not merely about our justification—it is about our salvation from sin and its consequences; our salvation that is not found in the works of the Old Testament Law, but is found through our faith in and obedience to Christ, obedience which is an integral and inseparable part of that faith.
Our justification is not based in obedience to Christ. Christ's commands were to the house of Israel.
"I was sent not but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel"Christ never commanded a Gentile to do anything. Christ commanded Israel to obey Moses which Paul later cancelled.

Paul's gospel, which is the universal gospel to all men of all races is the only binding rule upon men today. That rule is FAITH ALONE. Jesus' gospel was to the house of Israel and has been cancelled by Paul as previously said.

Godspeed,
thinker

yaza
Jan 17th 2009, 11:06 PM
I am not discounting anything at all. What I am doing is asking you a question about a specific passage of Scripture written by the Apostle Paul which speaks about the gospel that he preached. Again... why not actually address that passage in 1 Timothy. So far... the couple of folk that I have asked this to are avoiding it like it carries the plague. Does that passage frighten you perhaps? Perhaps it kicks a doctrinal cow right in the fanny? Why not just address the passage what with this being a place we discuss the Bible. We've heard clearly your opinion on this... what about what the BIble actually says? ;)
what is your question? ill try to read it more carefully. love yaza

Sirus
Jan 17th 2009, 11:26 PM
thinker.. my previous post on page 1......
Thinker must not be reading the post. All my post have all mentioned it as well.

thethinker
Jan 17th 2009, 11:37 PM
Thinker must not be reading the post. All my post have all mentioned it as well.
Sirus my friend,
I have no idea what you and beloveddisciple are talking about. My post was a reply to Vhayes which is clearly indicated in the "quote". Scroll up and see reply #76 for yourselves.

thinker

theBelovedDisciple
Jan 17th 2009, 11:43 PM
Sirus my friend,
I have no idea what you and beloveddisciple are talking about. My post was a reply to Vhayes which is clearly indicated in the "quote". Scroll up and see reply #76 for yourselves.

thinker

I apologize.. I thought you were referring to all the posts posted in the thread.. I misunderstood your post.. My mistake..

Sirus
Jan 17th 2009, 11:44 PM
Right but if the gospel doesn't in fact make a man righteous experientially then it is no better than the law that was weak through the flesh. But it is better and does make us righteous in experience because the flesh that made the law weak is crucified with Christ yet we live, but it is not us, but Christ in us, that we may bring forth fruit unto holiness.Lest we forget that Christ said, "If you love me keep my commandments". Hard to get away from those harsh words about keeping the Law when Jesus Himself tells you too!


VoiceWell, lets not forget he said all the law hinges on Two. Do the Two and you will fulfill the law. It is because the old man (flesh) is dead we are made alive and can do just that, which is why Romans says we fulfill the righteousness in the law and therefore hold up the law, because Christ is the pinnacle of the law for righteousness.

If you love me keep my commandments is John 14:15. 1Jo 2 explains...
v7 Beloved -addressing the subject of love
I do not give you a new commandment but an old (since you heard the gospel) which is love. It is the greatest principle of walking as Christ walked (1Jo 2:6). The love of brethren 1Jo 2:9, 1Jo 2:10

Sirus
Jan 17th 2009, 11:45 PM
Sirus my friend,
I have no idea what you and beloveddisciple are talking about. My post was a reply to Vhayes which is clearly indicated in the "quote". Scroll up and see reply #76 for yourselves.

thinkerYes, I misread that too. I'm sorry! Looks like I'm the one that needs to read :help:

thethinker
Jan 17th 2009, 11:51 PM
Yes, I misread that too. I'm sorry! Looks like I'm the one that needs to read :help:

It happens and I love you regardless. :kiss:

thinker

thethinker
Jan 18th 2009, 12:01 AM
Lest we forget that Christ said, "If you love me keep my commandments". Hard to get away from those harsh words about keeping the Law when Jesus Himself tells you too!


Voice
Voice,
It's not hard at all to "get away" from Jesus' teachings to keep the law. Jesus preached to Israel alone and commanded them to keep Moses. But Paul came later and said that Jesus fulfilled Moses. As the result, salvation is now "apart" from the law. Not just a little or in part. But ALTOGETHER!

thinker

ProjectPeter
Jan 18th 2009, 12:38 AM
what is your question? ill try to read it more carefully. love yaza
You can go back to this post (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1947284&postcount=62).

ProjectPeter
Jan 18th 2009, 12:39 AM
Voice,
It's not hard at all to "get away" from Jesus' teachings to keep the law. Jesus preached to Israel alone and commanded them to keep Moses. But Paul came later and said that Jesus fulfilled Moses. As the result, salvation is now "apart" from the law. Not just a little or in part. But ALTOGETHER!

thinker
From the Law of Moses yes... but never apart from the Law of Christ. ;)

thethinker
Jan 18th 2009, 12:50 AM
From the Law of Moses yes... but never apart from the Law of Christ. ;)

Peter,
The law of Christ was the law of Moses. He preached to Israel while they were still under Moses. But Paul's gospel is post-Moses and is the only rule which applies today.

thinker

ProjectPeter
Jan 18th 2009, 01:12 AM
Peter,
The law of Christ was the law of Moses. He preached to Israel while they were still under Moses. But Paul's gospel is post-Moses and is the only rule which applies today.

thinker
No, but folks like to think so. Be careful with the Pauline only mindset... it will get you into all sorts of doctrinal trouble.

1 Corinthians 9:20 *And to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law, though not being myself under the Law, that I might win those who are under the Law;
21 *to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, that I might win those who are without law.

What is the Law of Christ?

John 13:33 *"Little children, I am with you a little while longer. You shall seek Me; and as I said to the Jews, I now say to you also, `Where I am going, you cannot come.´
34 *"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
35 *"By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

To make it sure that this is what Paul was speaking of... we carry on to his letter to the church in Galatia.

Galatians 6:1 *Brethren, even if a man is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, lest you too be tempted.
2 *Bear one another's burdens, and thus fulfill the law of Christ.

thethinker
Jan 18th 2009, 01:40 AM
No, but folks like to think so. Be careful with the Pauline only mindset... it will get you into all sorts of doctrinal trouble.

1 Corinthians 9:20 *And to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law, though not being myself under the Law, that I might win those who are under the Law;
21 *to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, that I might win those who are without law.

What is the Law of Christ?

John 13:33 *"Little children, I am with you a little while longer. You shall seek Me; and as I said to the Jews, I now say to you also, `Where I am going, you cannot come.´
34 *"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
35 *"By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

To make it sure that this is what Paul was speaking of... we carry on to his letter to the church in Galatia.

Galatians 6:1 *Brethren, even if a man is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, lest you too be tempted.
2 *Bear one another's burdens, and thus fulfill the law of Christ.
Peter,
The teachings of Christ while in the flesh and His revelations to Paul are to be distinguished. We have on record both the law which Christ Himself gave to Israel and the law that Christ gave to all nations through Paul. Both are the "law of Christ". But the law Christ gave to Paul trumps what He taught while in the flesh. To deny this would be to admit that salvation is for Israel alone for Christ while in the flesh came to Israel alone.

The "law of Christ" that Paul spoke about was that which he himself received directly from Christ.

be well,
thinker

revrobor
Jan 18th 2009, 02:32 AM
How can unrighteousness be contrary to the gospel if righteousness is not part of the gospel?

What are you talking about? Your answer makes no sense. Are you confused? You seem to be going around in some sort of circle trying to make the simple truth of the Gospel complicated. Or is it that you really don't know what you are talking about? The Gospel ("Good News") is that God's love for us is so great that He sacrificed His Son for us so we would not have to pay the price for our sin and could live eternally with Him. That is John 3:16. What "Gospel" are you talking about?

Sirus
Jan 18th 2009, 02:38 AM
The Gospel ("Good News") is that God's love for us is so great that He sacrificed His Son for us so we would not have to pay the price for our sin and could live eternally with Him.and in the mean time?

revrobor
Jan 18th 2009, 02:50 AM
and in the mean time?

In the meantime we are to walk in obedience, grow in Him through the teachings of the Bible spread the "Good News" and be used of God however He chooses to use us. But what has this got to do with the Gospel?

Sirus
Jan 18th 2009, 03:15 AM
But what has this got to do with the Gospel?everything!


In the meantime we are to walk in obediencehow you gonna do that? Do what you don't want to do and not do the things you ought? To will is present but how to perform that which is good you find not.

How are you going to obey?

shepherdsword
Jan 18th 2009, 03:24 AM
In the meantime we are to walk in obedience, grow in Him through the teachings of the Bible spread the "Good News" and be used of God however He chooses to use us. But what has this got to do with the Gospel?

I liked your reduction of the gospel to one verse. It makes it so simple that anyone can understand. Sometimes new converts get the impression they must have a degree in theology in order to get saved. It's almost as if we have fallen into the trap that Paul warned us of. We have been beguiled,as the serpent beguiled Eve,from the simplicity of devotion to Christ.
However, I do have a question. How do you define "believe"? I know the greek definition. I know A.T Robertson's , Weists',Vincent and Kittle's position on it. What I want to know what is God's definition of faith?

revrobor
Jan 18th 2009, 03:55 AM
everything!

how you gonna do that? Do what you don't want to do and not do the things you ought? To will is present but how to perform that which is good you find not.

How are you going to obey?

Your responses are nonsensical and you are apparently confusing the Gospel with teaching.

revrobor
Jan 18th 2009, 04:03 AM
I liked your reduction of the gospel to one verse. It makes it so simple that anyone can understand. Sometimes new converts get the impression they must have a degree in theology in order to get saved. It's almost as if we have fallen into the trap that Paul warned us of. We have been beguiled,as the serpent beguiled Eve,from the simplicity of devotion to Christ.
However, I do have a question. How do you define "believe"? I know the greek definition. I know A.T Robertson's , Weists',Vincent and Kittle's position on it. What I want to know what is God's definition of faith?

When I speak of "believe" I mean one has accepted as truth what one learns (in this case what Jesus has done for us) and therefore will choose to strive to develop a lifestyle according to that belief. What God's definition of faith is I don't know. Mine is faith means you put your trust and hope in a person (in this case Jesus) and teachings. It is this faith that "saves" (keeps us from falling into condemnation) in that it causes us to grow spiritually.

Sirus
Jan 18th 2009, 04:13 AM
What is nonsensical about my replies?

You said "grow in Him through the teachings of the Bible" well how are you going to do that? With or without the Spirit? You say I am confusing the gospel with teaching but in the gospel you were Spirit Baptized into Christ, crucified (circumcision of Christ), and raised through the operation of God (Spirit). So if you grow through teaching, understand all things by the Spirit in you - Christ the hope of glory, you do all of this because of the gospel.

You said "we are to walk in obedience". I'm not putting you on the spot. It's a simple question I have explained many times in this thread. How are you going to obey? If you don't sin because you are dead then you don't sin because of your faith in the gospel.

But according to your previous post, the gospel ends with Jesus' sacrifice and is not effectual again until eternity.

"God's love for us is so great that He sacrificed His Son for us so we would not have to pay the price for our sin and could live eternally with Him"

I just find that lacking about 2/3 the NT.

revrobor
Jan 18th 2009, 04:25 AM
What is nonsensical about my replies?

You said "grow in Him through the teachings of the Bible" well how are you going to do that? With or without the Spirit? You say I am confusing the gospel with teaching but in the gospel you were Spirit Baptized into Christ, crucified (circumcision of Christ), and raised through the operation of God (Spirit). So if you grow through teaching, understand all things by the Spirit in you - Christ the hope of glory, you do all of this because of the gospel.

You said "we are to walk in obedience". I'm not putting you on the spot. It's a simple question I have explained many times in this thread. How are you going to obey? If you don't sin because you are dead then you don't sin because of your faith in the gospel.

But according to your previous post, the gospel ends with Jesus' sacrifice and is not effectual again until eternity.

"God's love for us is so great that He sacrificed His Son for us so we would not have to pay the price for our sin and could live eternally with Him"

I just find that lacking about 2/3 the NT.

You are attempting to pad the definition of the Gospel with teaching and I never said the Gospel ends with Jesus' sacrifice. The Gospel will be effective UNTIL Eternity.
If you continue to cause this kind of confusion you will hinder the cause of Christ and will be held accountable for it.

shepherdsword
Jan 18th 2009, 04:26 AM
When I speak of "believe" I mean one has accepted as truth what one learns (in this case what Jesus has done for us) and therefore will choose to strive to develop a lifestyle according to that belief. What God's definition of faith is I don't know. Mine is faith means you put your trust and hope in a person (in this case Jesus) and teachings. It is this faith that "saves" (keeps us from falling into condemnation) in that it causes us to grow spiritually.


I like this definition. Some people will stumble at your mention of "strive"
because they forget that Jesus himself said "strive to enter in at the straight gate"

The greek word for strive is "agon" where we get our word agony. That's good to keep in mind when our Father brings some painful situation into out life in order to change us. I guess I was questioning your position because I read where you snapped down on ProjectPeter pretty hard. I saw the statement you were having a problem with and it seemed out of context. I don't think he was saying that righteousness isn't part of the gospel. Do you have a link to that entire post so I can see the context in which he made that statement? You and I do not seem to be too different in our perspective and I feel the same way about PP.

Sirus
Jan 18th 2009, 05:19 AM
I never said the Gospel ends with Jesus' sacrifice. The Gospel will be effective UNTIL Eternity.Sure ALL our sins are already forgiven but you said that's it until eternity. Did you not? No, you didn't. You said we should do this and we should do that and the only help you mentioned we have is the Bible. That's not scriptural at all!

"grow in Him through the teachings of the Bible"

Where's the Spirit? How'd you get it?
The gospel ;)


Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?



If you continue to cause this kind of confusion you will hinder the cause of Christ and will be held accountable for it.Really now?!? Tell that to all those that have been set free learning what the church is not preaching. Those that struggle with 'stronghold' sins for 20 or 40 years begging God to be free. The gospel they had been taught and were constantly hearing didn't help. The whole gospel sets them free instantly moment by moment, temptation by temptation, why? because it is a walk of faith in their death burial and resurrection with and in Christ. That is what Paul preached and that is what Paul prayed and asked for prayers to have utterance to speak. The mystery of Christ!

The natural effectual fruit of our death burial and resurrection in Christ is the cause of Christ. It's called the mystery of Christ! When scripture speaks of God's power in us, his grace, wisdom, sanctification, redemption, a way of escape for every temptation, the riches of his glory in heavenly places made known and on and on and on, it is speaking about the effectual gospel that we do not have to be ashamed of because it accomplishes what the law could not. It makes us righteous experientially because the flesh has been crucified. Else, it is no better than the law that was weak because of flesh.
Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to establish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Eph 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
.........
Eph 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
Eph 3:11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:


Col 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
Col 2:3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
............
Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

Col 4:3 Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds:

1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
.......
1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
1Co 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
....
1Co 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
.....
1Co 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
1Co 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to naught:
1Co 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

revrobor
Jan 18th 2009, 06:22 AM
Sure ALL our sins are already forgiven but you said that's it until eternity. Did you not? No, you didn't. You said we should do this and we should do that and the only help you mentioned we have is the Bible. That's not scriptural at all!

"grow in Him through the teachings of the Bible"

Where's the Spirit? How'd you get it?
The gospel ;)

]

Why you can't understand that the Gospel and doctrine and teachings are two different things is totally beyond me unless the Enemy is blinding you. And no one can understand Scripture unless we receive the Spirit and the Spirit enables (spiritual growth 101) but that is part of doctrine and teachings NOT the Gospel.

ProjectPeter
Jan 18th 2009, 01:49 PM
Peter,
The teachings of Christ while in the flesh and His revelations to Paul are to be distinguished. We have on record both the law which Christ Himself gave to Israel and the law that Christ gave to all nations through Paul. Both are the "law of Christ". But the law Christ gave to Paul trumps what He taught while in the flesh. To deny this would be to admit that salvation is for Israel alone for Christ while in the flesh came to Israel alone.

The "law of Christ" that Paul spoke about was that which he himself received directly from Christ.

be well,
thinker
I have a news flash for you thinker... Jesus told the disciples before Jesus told Paul the same thing. Nothing trumps the teaching of Christ whom Paul tells us to follow. You'd be hard pressed following Christ without... well... actually following Christ.

Paul preached the same as the others. Repent and turn to God. That was just as much his message as was Peter's, John's, James and the others. Same message to both the Jew and the Gentile.

Acts 24:24 ¶But some days later, Felix arrived with Drusilla, his wife who was a Jewess, and sent for Paul, and heard him speak about faith in Christ Jesus.
25 And as he was discussing righteousness, self-control and the judgment to come, Felix became frightened and said, "Go away for the present, and when I find time, I will summon you."

Acts 26:16 `But arise, and stand on your feet; for this purpose I have appeared to you, to appoint you a minister and a witness not only to the things which you have seen, but also to the things in which I will appear to you;
17 delivering you from the Jewish people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you,
18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, in order that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.´
19 "Consequently, King Agrippa, I did not prove disobedient to the heavenly vision,

20 but kept declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance.

ProjectPeter
Jan 18th 2009, 01:57 PM
What are you talking about? Your answer makes no sense. Are you confused? You seem to be going around in some sort of circle trying to make the simple truth of the Gospel complicated. Or is it that you really don't know what you are talking about? The Gospel ("Good News") is that God's love for us is so great that He sacrificed His Son for us so we would not have to pay the price for our sin and could live eternally with Him. That is John 3:16. What "Gospel" are you talking about?Confused? No... I am asking you a simple question using the Scripture and you're running from it as it very obvious. ;)

Paul tells Timothy that those things were contrary to the gospel. Paul is speaking about the gospel that he preached. Why, again, do you not respond to the passage that I posted.

Here... let me give that to you once again and see if you are actually interested in what the Bible actually says. I know it's tough some times when confronted with the truth of the Word and that old man-made idea gets in the way. But try it... see what it actually says. :)

1 Timothy 1:8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,
9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers
10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,
11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.

If these things are contrary to the Gospel that Paul preached... then righteousness was just as clearly a part of Paul's gospel as was the cross.

The cross and resurrection were of first importance. If one doesn't believe that then one hasn't even gotten into the race.

1 Corinthians 15:1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.
6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep;
7 then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles;
8 and last of all, as it were to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.

Paul preached, to both Jew and Gentile, to repent and turn to God and do deeds worthy of that repentance. In other words... live righteously.

Acts 26:16 `But arise, and stand on your feet; for this purpose I have appeared to you, to appoint you a minister and a witness not only to the things which you have seen, but also to the things in which I will appear to you;
17 delivering you from the Jewish people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you,
18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, in order that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.´
19 "Consequently, King Agrippa, I did not prove disobedient to the heavenly vision,
20 but kept declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance.

Is that a tad more clear for you?

ProjectPeter
Jan 18th 2009, 02:02 PM
I like this definition. Some people will stumble at your mention of "strive"
because they forget that Jesus himself said "strive to enter in at the straight gate"

The greek word for strive is "agon" where we get our word agony. That's good to keep in mind when our Father brings some painful situation into out life in order to change us. I guess I was questioning your position because I read where you snapped down on ProjectPeter pretty hard. I saw the statement you were having a problem with and it seemed out of context. I don't think he was saying that righteousness isn't part of the gospel. Do you have a link to that entire post so I can see the context in which he made that statement? You and I do not seem to be too different in our perspective and I feel the same way about PP.
Nah... we are quite far apart. I do not subscribe at all to the ultra-grace teaching of just believe and you're in like flint. This is where rev and I strongly disagree. It is a continuing belief... a working belief. The very word disciple denotes one that not only believes but one that follows their master. That very well describes John 10 that our eternal security friends like to toss out in every eternal security discussion. The part they struggle with... that it is present active in other words... enduring to the end. :)

thethinker
Jan 18th 2009, 03:10 PM
Projectpeter said:
Paul preached the same as the others. Repent and turn to God. That was just as much his message as was Peter's, John's, James and the others. Same message to both the Jew and the Gentile.


20 but kept declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance.


Peter,
Paul certainly did preach repentance in the book of Acts BEFORE he was imprisoned. And it was to Israel alone. While in prison Christ gave Him by direct revelation the gospel of faith alone to all races of men indiscriminately.

Paul preached to Israelites alone. The term "Gentiles" you offer from Acts should be translated "nations" and it refers to the nations of Israel and not the non-Israelite peoples.

The apostles NEVER preached to the non-Israelite nations. If they did they would have disobeyed Christ who told them,

"Do not go to the Gentiles....Go only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matt 10:6).

Your view implies that the apostles disobeyed Christ. This is a problem you will not be able to overcome. The term "ethnos" in Acts simply is the nations of Israel. Paul said that the gospel must go to the Jew FIRST. The apostles preached the "repent and be baptized" message to Israel alone. After this Paul received new revelation from Christ as I said. The universal gospel now is FAITH ALONE!

The author to the Hebrews admonished his readers to put away repentance and baptism,

"Therefore, leaving the elementary teachings of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works...and of teaching baptisms... (6:1-2).

There it is! The author to the Hebrews said that repentance and baptism were "elementary" teachings of Christ. Therefore, Paul's faith alone gospel trumps the "elementary" teachings of Christ.

We must move forward with Paul's faith alone gospel. We are commanded to "go on to perfection". We must drop all that "repent and be baptized" stuff which was for Israel and not for us anyway. Paul's faith alone gospel is the universal and everlasting gospel.

God bless,
thinker

Julian
Jan 18th 2009, 10:53 PM
what is the gospel?

this is a simple question but is a source of a lot confusion in the church today. thanks in advance for your answers. yaza
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 1:3-4 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

ProjectPeter
Jan 19th 2009, 12:26 AM
Projectpeter said:

Peter,
Paul certainly did preach repentance in the book of Acts BEFORE he was imprisoned. And it was to Israel alone. While in prison Christ gave Him by direct revelation the gospel of faith alone to all races of men indiscriminately.I just showed you a passage that shows clearly that Paul preached this to both Jew and Gentile. That was near the last few years of Paul's life here on earth. Now... that's a Bible fact. What you have shown biblically... nothing. So... who should folks believe?


Paul preached to Israelites alone. The term "Gentiles" you offer from Acts should be translated "nations" and it refers to the nations of Israel and not the non-Israelite peoples.Who taught you such as that?


The apostles NEVER preached to the non-Israelite nations. If they did they would have disobeyed Christ who told them,

"Do not go to the Gentiles....Go only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matt 10:6).

Your view implies that the apostles disobeyed Christ. This is a problem you will not be able to overcome. The term "ethnos" in Acts simply is the nations of Israel. Paul said that the gospel must go to the Jew FIRST. The apostles preached the "repent and be baptized" message to Israel alone. After this Paul received new revelation from Christ as I said. The universal gospel now is FAITH ALONE!

The author to the Hebrews admonished his readers to put away repentance and baptism,

"Therefore, leaving the elementary teachings of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works...and of teaching baptisms... (6:1-2).

There it is! The author to the Hebrews said that repentance and baptism were "elementary" teachings of Christ. Therefore, Paul's faith alone gospel trumps the "elementary" teachings of Christ.

We must move forward with Paul's faith alone gospel. We are commanded to "go on to perfection". We must drop all that "repent and be baptized" stuff which was for Israel and not for us anyway. Paul's faith alone gospel is the universal and everlasting gospel.

God bless,
thinkerUh... your doctrine is all askew!

If Paul preached to Jews and Jews only... then Acts 15 means nothing. It is clear that the discussion in Jerusalem was not to the scattered Jews but to Gentiles. As to what you are saying... that is a foreign gospel and one with a curse attached to it. Be very careful. And while being careful... start a thread for me in chat to ministers.

yaza
Jan 19th 2009, 04:04 AM
You can go back to this post (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1947284&postcount=62).
im sorry,i thought i answered your question. if you are eluding that we need to keep the law as part of the gospel, then you are not understanding the simple truth of the gospel. we are forgiven by his death, dead with him in our sins, justified, sanctified and whatever fied by his life. there is nothing you can do but believe. if you do believe then the holy spirit comes and lives in you, and does his work in you, so anything good you do it is god who does the work,not us. when you sin it is the sin that still lives in you. we wont be perfect until the last trumpet. i cant wait. god bless

ProjectPeter
Jan 19th 2009, 04:09 AM
im sorry,i thought i answered your question. if you are eluding that we need to keep the law as part of the gospel, then you are not understanding the simple truth of the gospel. we are forgiven by his death, dead with him in our sins, justified, sanctified and whatever fied by his life. there is nothing you can do but believe. if you do believe then the holy spirit comes and lives in you, and does his work in you, so anything good you do it is god who does the work,not us. when you sin it is the sin that still lives in you. we wont be perfect until the last trumpet. i cant wait. god bless
I mentioned nothing at all, nor alluded, about keeping the Law. I simply made mention of the fact that Paul said those things (unholy/unrighteous things) were contrary to the gospel that Paul preached. If those things are contrary to the gospel that Paul preached... why do we think Paul didn't preach, as part of his gospel message, about righteousness? Everyone says, "it's just believe" but how does one come to that conclusion biblically?

wtj
Jan 19th 2009, 02:52 PM
THE GOSPEL IS THE WRITTEN LEADING OF THE FATHER,SON,AND HOLY GHOST WHEREBY IT IS GIVEN UNTO US TO RECEIVE ETERNAL LIFE. - wtj

ProjectPeter
Jan 19th 2009, 02:56 PM
THE GOSPEL IS THE WRITTEN LEADING OF THE FATHER,SON,AND HOLY GHOST WHEREBY IT IS GIVEN UNTO US TO RECEIVE ETERNAL LIFE. - wtj
By written you mean?

And just a note to help you out... best not to use the all caps button. That does tend to get one some folks nerve for a variety of reasons. :)

thethinker
Jan 19th 2009, 07:31 PM
I just showed you a passage that shows clearly that Paul preached this to both Jew and Gentile. That was near the last few years of Paul's life here on earth. Now... that's a Bible fact.
Peter,
What you call a "Biblical fact" is in reality the "fact" of the English translators. See the Young's Analytical Concordance. It correctly renders the Greek "ethnos" as "nations".


If Paul preached to Jews and Jews only... then Acts 15 means nothing. It is clear that the discussion in Jerusalem was not to the scattered Jews but to Gentiles. As to what you are saying... that is a foreign gospel and one with a curse attached to it. Be very careful. And while being careful... start a thread for me in chat to ministers.

The Council of Jerusalem was not about Gentiles at all. It was about the uncircumcised of Israel having the law of circumcision imposed on them by Jewish Christians. Not all Israelites observed circumcision and Jewish Christians were telling them that they had to be circumcised to be saved. They could not have been "Gentiles" because they went into the synagogue on the sabbath to be taught the law of Moses (15:21). GENTILES WERE NOT PERMITTED TO ENTER THE SYNAGOGUE. This is the historical fact of the matter.

Therefore, the Council of Jerusalem had to do with the uncircumcised of the nations of Israel. The apostles had not begun to preach to Gentiles yet. They had to first fulfill Christ's command to go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

I don't understand why you are so emotional about this. I have said that we are NOW in the age of the "everlasting gospel" and that it is based in FAITH ALONE and that it is NOW for all men. Shouldn't this make you happy!

Btw, what about Hebrews 6 which says that those Jewish Christians were to leave repentance and baptism and move on to perfection in Christ? What about this? And why is it that many "Christians" today still want some part of Moses to remain?

cordially,
thinker

drew
Jan 19th 2009, 08:06 PM
The entire Gospel (Good News) is contained in John 3:16. The only reason there is confusion is that after men established religious institutions ("churches") they decided that their pet doctrines and requirements for salvation had to be added to the Pure Gospel watering it down and forever confusing the issue.
John 3:16 is good news - in fact it is wonderful news.

But it is not the gospel. The gospel is the announcement that Jesus is the Davidic Messiah and has been constituted as Lord of the World through his being raised from the dead:

2the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, 4and who through the Spirit[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%201&version=31#fen-NIV-27920a)] of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%201&version=31#fen-NIV-27920b)] by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.

Paul used the word "gospel" consistently in his writings to denote "Jesus is Lord", not "you can be saved by faith in Jesus.

Of course, he believed the latter and argued for it - he just didn't use the term "gospel" for that.

drew
Jan 19th 2009, 08:14 PM
:rofl:
I am basing my convictions on the Word of God.

Ephesians 2:8, 9 For by grace we have been saved through faith and that not of ourselves. It is a gift of God, not because of works, lest anyone should boast.

If works were involved in any way in our salvation, that would be something we could boast about. We are changed when we trust in Christ--we become a child of God--and naturally works follow. But they follow the change brought about by God's grace alone through faith alone.

BD
Paul here is referring to the works of Torah, and denying they can save. And the boast here is not the boast of the morally self-righteous, it is the boast of the Jew, who thinks he has an inside track to justification. He is not denying the role of "good works" in salvation. It would be shocking if he did, since he affirms the necessity of good works here:

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%202;&version=31;#fen-NIV-27954a)] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

drew
Jan 19th 2009, 08:22 PM
Paul preached to Israelites alone.
I do not see how this can possibly be true, at least it cannot be true in respect to his written material. Here is material from Romans 11, clearly targeted specifically at Gentiles:

I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
This is a stern warning to the Gentiles to not consider the Jew as written off by God.

Emanate
Jan 19th 2009, 08:26 PM
GENTILES WERE NOT PERMITTED TO ENTER THE SYNAGOGUE. This is the historical fact of the matter.


I am loathe to point this out, but that is false. Gentiles were, and always have been (to this day) permitted in the Synagogue. Even the book of Acts references Greeks in the synagogue. Gentiles were not permitted in the Temple. Perhaps you have these two mistaken?

Emanate
Jan 19th 2009, 08:27 PM
I do not see how this can possibly be true, at least it cannot be true in respect to his written material. Here is material from Romans 11, clearly targeted specifically at Gentiles:

I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
This is a stern warning to the Gentiles to not consider the Jew as written off by God.


Excellent point. Israelites are not "unnatural branches"

thethinker
Jan 19th 2009, 10:27 PM
I do not see how this can possibly be true, at least it cannot be true in respect to his written material. Here is material from Romans 11, clearly targeted specifically at Gentiles:

I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
This is a stern warning to the Gentiles to not consider the Jew as written off by God.
Greetings drew,
If you have read my posts on this thread you would know that I do not accept the translations that say "Gentiles". The Young's Analytical Concordance correctly says that the Greek "ethnos" should simply be rendered "nations".

The "nations" Paul is addressing in Romans 11 were the uncircumcised of Israel who had been cut out from the covenant. Paul was the apostle to the "nations" of Israel. Paul never preached to a Gentile. In chapter 15 we read this;

Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant to the circumcision for the truth, to confirm the promises made to the fathers, and that the nations might glorify God for His mercy, as it is written....

Then Paul cites four prophecies which ALL make clear that the "nations" in view are the nations of Israel. The first passage is from 2 Samuel 22:50 where David was clearly referring to his own kinsman for in verse 44 David said:

"You have kept me from the strivings of my people; you have kept me as the head of the nations. A people I have not known shall serve me. The foreigners shall submit to me".

So there it is. David is saying that his own people who strived against him are people that he has not known. He regarded them as "foreigners". But Christ would bring them back into the covenant.

In every single prophecy that Paul cited we see that the "nations" are the nations of Israel.

Paul said that Christ became a servant to the circumcision to confirm the promises made to the fathers in order that the nations [of Israel] might glorify God. Paul was not talking about the Gentiles here nor in chapter 11.

God speed,
thinker

thethinker
Jan 19th 2009, 10:30 PM
I am loathe to point this out, but that is false. Gentiles were, and always have been (to this day) permitted in the Synagogue. Even the book of Acts references Greeks in the synagogue. Gentiles were not permitted in the Temple. Perhaps you have these two mistaken?
Emanate,
Please provide historical evidence showing that Gentiles were permitted to enter the synagogue in Biblical times?

thanks,

thinker

ProjectPeter
Jan 19th 2009, 11:25 PM
Peter,
What you call a "Biblical fact" is in reality the "fact" of the English translators. See the Young's Analytical Concordance. It correctly renders the Greek "ethnos" as "nations".Which means everyone other than a Jew. ;) It ain't rocket science.


The Council of Jerusalem was not about Gentiles at all. It was about the uncircumcised of Israel having the law of circumcision imposed on them by Jewish Christians. Not all Israelites observed circumcision and Jewish Christians were telling them that they had to be circumcised to be saved. They could not have been "Gentiles" because they went into the synagogue on the sabbath to be taught the law of Moses (15:21). GENTILES WERE NOT PERMITTED TO ENTER THE SYNAGOGUE. This is the historical fact of the matter. Again... where are you digging this stuff up from? The synagogue wasn't the Temple.


Therefore, the Council of Jerusalem had to do with the uncircumcised of the nations of Israel. The apostles had not begun to preach to Gentiles yet. They had to first fulfill Christ's command to go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.And you are just plain incorrect.

Acts 13:46 And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, "It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it, and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.
47 "For thus the Lord has commanded us, `I HAVE PLACED YOU AS A LIGHT FOR THE GENTILES, THAT YOU SHOULD BRING SALVATION TO THE END OF THE EARTH.´"
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
49 And the word of the Lord was being spread through the whole region.

He preached to the Jews first... Gentiles second. Not freaky Jews that weren't really Jews but were Jews in birth only. :rolleyes:

I didn't realize that the Berean group had gotten this out of sorts. Their teaching was always lacking and bad... this is really lacking and dangerously bad.


I don't understand why you are so emotional about this. I have said that we are NOW in the age of the "everlasting gospel" and that it is based in FAITH ALONE and that it is NOW for all men. Shouldn't this make you happy![quote]We aren't in the age of anything other than the age of the church. You are making God into a changed God... He doesn't change.

[quote]Btw, what about Hebrews 6 which says that those Jewish Christians were to leave repentance and baptism and move on to perfection in Christ? What about this? And why is it that many "Christians" today still want some part of Moses to remain?

cordially,
thinkerThat isn't at all what the writer of Hebrews 6 was telling them. He was telling them that they should be beyond that point now... should be teachers by now. Why do they have to GO BACK AND RELAY those foundational things? They were sliding back to the basics and not moving on to maturity. Context is clear on that passage.

BadDog
Jan 20th 2009, 12:58 AM
Paul here is referring to the works of Torah, and denying they can save. And the boast here is not the boast of the morally self-righteous, it is the boast of the Jew, who thinks he has an inside track to justification. He is not denying the role of "good works" in salvation. It would be shocking if he did, since he affirms the necessity of good works here:

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%202;&version=31;#fen-NIV-27954a)] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
Actually Paul was speaking to Gentiles at Ephesus, though I do not think that he was excluding Jews, as the next few verses right after 8 and 9 show:

Ephesians 2:11, 12 So then, remember that at one time you were Gentiles in the flesh -- called "the uncircumcised" by those called "the circumcised," done by hand in the flesh. At that time you were without the Christ, excluded from the citizenship of Israel, and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, with no hope and without God in the world.

The first few verses in chapter 2 make that clear as well. ALso look at Titus 3 below:

Titus 3:4-8 But when the goodness and love for man appeared from God our Savior, He saved us -- not by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit. This [Spirit] He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that having been justified by His grace, we may become heirs with the hope of eternal life.

This saying is trustworthy. I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God might be careful to devote themselves to good works. These are good and profitable for everyone.

"Works of righteousness." Paul is clearly here not referring to the Torah. Paul's overall concern in Romans, Ephesians and Titus is not simply with "works of the Law," but with any work which would result in our trusting in our own efforts, hence to be able to boast, rather than simply relying upon Christ's completed work in our behalf.

Works are an essential part of the Christian walk. They naturally follow our conversion, as Ephesians 2:10 makes clear. But we are not saved by works. Paul sometimes refers to obeying the gospel, meaning that the requirement of the gospel must be followed: faith.

BD

ProjectPeter
Jan 20th 2009, 01:17 AM
Hey Peter,

I'll now insist that you start a thread in chat to ministers.

Sirus
Jan 20th 2009, 01:27 AM
John 3:16 is good news - in fact it is wonderful news.

But it is not the gospel. The gospel is the announcement that Jesus is the Davidic Messiah and has been constituted as Lord of the World through his being raised from the dead:

2the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, 4and who through the Spirit[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%201&version=31#fen-NIV-27920a)] of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.

Paul used the word "gospel" consistently in his writings to denote "Jesus is Lord", not "you can be saved by faith in Jesus.

Of course, he believed the latter and argued for it - he just didn't use the term "gospel" for that.This is excellent! My favorite passage for this is Acts 10. When it (the gospel) was preached, which is 'Jesus is Lord of all', "the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word."

Act 10:34-44 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: ([B]he is Lord of all:) That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: Him God raised up the third day, and showed him openly; Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.

And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

yaza
Jan 20th 2009, 04:26 AM
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 1:3-4 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
now thats what i call good news!!

yaza
Jan 20th 2009, 04:49 AM
I mentioned nothing at all, nor alluded, about keeping the Law. I simply made mention of the fact that Paul said those things (unholy/unrighteous things) were contrary to the gospel that Paul preached. If those things are contrary to the gospel that Paul preached... why do we think Paul didn't preach, as part of his gospel message, about righteousness? Everyone says, "it's just believe" but how does one come to that conclusion biblically?
john 20:31 but these are recorded so that you may belive that jesus is the christ, the son of god,and that by believing you may have eternal life. john 6:40 this is the will of my father- for everyone who looks on the son and believes in him to have eternal life, and i will raise him up at the last day. john 3:36 the one who believes in the son has eternal life. the one who rejects the son will not see life,but the wrath of god remains on him. there are a lot more i could give you but i think you get the point. god reduces humanity down to two types of people believers and unbelievers. the old test. backs this up in the case of the snake lifted up and the passover with the blood over door. he never told those people they needed to do anything else. abraham believed and it was credited to him as rightiousness. love yaza

My heart's Desire
Jan 20th 2009, 07:18 AM
The gospel? Hum. 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Paul's Gospel preached, recieved in which those who heard stood and by which they were also saved. What was it? The gospel delievered by Paul was that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that He was buried and that He was raised on the third day.

ProjectPeter
Jan 20th 2009, 01:36 PM
john 20:31 but these are recorded so that you may belive that jesus is the christ, the son of god,and that by believing you may have eternal life. john 6:40 this is the will of my father- for everyone who looks on the son and believes in him to have eternal life, and i will raise him up at the last day. john 3:36 the one who believes in the son has eternal life. the one who rejects the son will not see life,but the wrath of god remains on him. there are a lot more i could give you but i think you get the point. god reduces humanity down to two types of people believers and unbelievers. the old test. backs this up in the case of the snake lifted up and the passover with the blood over door. he never told those people they needed to do anything else. abraham believed and it was credited to him as rightiousness. love yazaBet you don't much care for James 2 eh? ;)

Why do you think God tested Abraham if all that counted was Abraham's belief that God was God? Do you think Abraham could have believed and still stayed home? Could Abraham still have believed while deciding that whole circumcision thing was nuts therefore I am not going to do it? Could Abraham still had faith if he would have thought to himself... self, Sarah is just too old and I'm not going to have sex with her and hang out for more hand maidens? Could Abraham have had faith and said "no way am I going to take Isaac up that mountain!"?

ProjectPeter
Jan 20th 2009, 01:40 PM
The gospel? Hum. 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Paul's Gospel preached, recieved in which those who heard stood and by which they were also saved. What was it? The gospel delievered by Paul was that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that He was buried and that He was raised on the third day.
That was of first importance... that wasn't the entire gospel. ;)

1 Corinthians 15:3 *For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4 *and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
5 *and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.

Why was Paul speaking of this?

1 Corinthians 15:12 *¶Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 *But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised;
14 *and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain.
15 *Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we witnessed against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised.
16 *For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;
17 *and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.
18 *Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
19 *If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.

Without this most important belief... (it was being said there was no resurrection) then everything else is just worthless and nothing else you do matters at all... you're just toast.

Emanate
Jan 20th 2009, 02:40 PM
Emanate,
Please provide historical evidence showing that Gentiles were permitted to enter the synagogue in Biblical times?

thanks,

thinker


Acts 14:1 And it came to pass in Iconium, that they went both together into the synagogue of the Jews, and so spake, that a great multitude both of the Jews and also of the Greeks believed.

Acts 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

Greeks - Ἕλλην - Hellen

[the Antiochian Jews] were constantly attracting to their religious ceremonies multitudes of Greeks, and these they had in some measure incorporated with themselves (Josephus, BJ 7.45)

drew
Jan 20th 2009, 04:17 PM
Actually Paul was speaking to Gentiles at Ephesus, though I do not think that he was excluding Jews, as the next few verses right after 8 and 9 show:

Ephesians 2:11, 12 So then, remember that at one time you were Gentiles in the flesh -- called "the uncircumcised" by those called "the circumcised," done by hand in the flesh. At that time you were without the Christ, excluded from the citizenship of Israel, and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, with no hope and without God in the world.
I agree - this is not a problem for the position I have been advocating.


The first few verses in chapter 2 make that clear as well. ALso look at Titus 3 below:

Titus 3:4-8 But when the goodness and love for man appeared from God our Savior, He saved us -- not by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit. This [Spirit] He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that having been justified by His grace, we may become heirs with the hope of eternal life.

This saying is trustworthy. I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God might be careful to devote themselves to good works. These are good and profitable for everyone.

"Works of righteousness." Paul is clearly here not referring to the Torah. Paul's overall concern in Romans, Ephesians and Titus is not simply with "works of the Law," but with any work which would result in our trusting in our own efforts, hence to be able to boast, rather than simply relying upon Christ's completed work in our behalf.
I agree with your take on Titus, but contextual arguments show that in Eph 2:8-9, Paul is talking specifically about the Torah.


Works are an essential part of the Christian walk. They naturally follow our conversion, as Ephesians 2:10 makes clear. But we are not saved by works.
Let me try to summarize - this is complicated.

1. In Ephesians 2:8-9, it can be clearly shown that Paul is denying the salvific power of Torah - I have not made the case in this thread, although I can if you want.

2. In Titus, Paul is denying that "good works" done in our own power are salvific.

3. Paul means what he says in Romans 2 - at the end, our salvation will be according to what we have done.

4. How can 2 and 3 both be true? They can both be true if the good works that procure our ultimate salvation are the product of the Holy Spirit.

But I must insist, Paul means what he says in Romans 2 - the criteria that God will look at on the last day are the good works.

God will give to each person according to what he has done."[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%202;&version=31;#fen-NIV-27954a)] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

I entirely agree that faith is fully sufficient to ensure these good works are produced - but Paul means what he says, it is the good works that will be the measuring stick at the last day.

yaza
Jan 20th 2009, 08:56 PM
Bet you don't much care for James 2 eh? ;)

Why do you think God tested Abraham if all that counted was Abraham's belief that God was God? Do you think Abraham could have believed and still stayed home? Could Abraham still have believed while deciding that whole circumcision thing was nuts therefore I am not going to do it? Could Abraham still had faith if he would have thought to himself... self, Sarah is just too old and I'm not going to have sex with her and hang out for more hand maidens? Could Abraham have had faith and said "no way am I going to take Isaac up that mountain!"?
abraham was saved by a promise, just as we are saved by that same promise. which is that god would provide a sacrafice for the sins of his people. and bringing them into his kingdom. remember abraham saw the day of christ and rejoiced. i love james 2 the works he is talking about is the holy spirit producing fruits of the spirit, fruits and works are the same and occur when the spirit is in your heart. we can do no good apart from the spirit... belief in the gospel is the foundation of everything without it you have nothing! some say this is hyper-grace, maybe so, but i think its exactly what it takes to bring a holy,perfect,eternal creator to a sinful wretch such as myself. thanks to everyone who made posts. yaza out

ProjectPeter
Jan 21st 2009, 12:13 AM
abraham was saved by a promise, just as we are saved by that same promise. which is that god would provide a sacrafice for the sins of his people. and bringing them into his kingdom. remember abraham saw the day of christ and rejoiced. i love james 2 the works he is talking about is the holy spirit producing fruits of the spirit, fruits and works are the same and occur when the spirit is in your heart. we can do no good apart from the spirit... belief in the gospel is the foundation of everything without it you have nothing! some say this is hyper-grace, maybe so, but i think its exactly what it takes to bring a holy,perfect,eternal creator to a sinful wretch such as myself. thanks to everyone who made posts. yaza out
Abraham hoped in the promise just as we hope in that promise. He believed God... that his descendants would number the stars and yet died believing with only one son. In other words... he endured to the very end. Read Hebrews 11... that is exactly what it is about. ;)

BadDog
Jan 21st 2009, 09:15 PM
Drew,

We may agree more than either of us realize, but allow me to comment anyway. BTW, I would appreciate if you would expound on your meaning, as you said you could.

Also, just FYI, I agree that there are places in the NT in which Paul is specifically referring to works of the Law (Torah), though that does not necessarily mean that arguments regarding the place of works (in general) in our salvation does not apply there.

Regarding Ephesians 2 - I do not agree that Ephesians 2:8, 9 is referring to the OT Law, though that is obviously not excluded. That's not how I see it, though I think I understand from where you are coming. I'll make a couple of brief comments below now...


I agree - this is not a problem for the position I have been advocating.

I agree with your take on Titus, but contextual arguments show that in Eph. 2:8-9, Paul is talking specifically about the Torah.
FA: See above - I do not think Paul was referring to the Torah here. Yes, Paul is referring to the tension throughout this chapter (esp. last half) between the Jews and Gentiles, and it is a mystery how God united them into one body. But that does not lead to an assumption that the works referenced in the 1st part of the chapter are Torah works alone. They're any works that these Gentile believers might do in an attempt to gain eternal life.

Let me try to summarize - this is complicated.

1. In Ephesians 2:8-9, it can be clearly shown that Paul is denying the salvific power of Torah - I have not made the case in this thread, although I can if you want.
FA: Please do - it would be appreciated.

2. In Titus, Paul is denying that "good works" done in our own power are salvific.
FA: Agreed.

3. Paul means what he says in Romans 2 - at the end, our salvation will be according to what we have done.
FA: Or according to what Christ has done (grace) - in our behalf - through faith. What Paul is trying to make clear in Romans is that we are not saved by works of any kind, but we are justified by faith in the finished work of Christ in our place. Justification (to have been declared to be righteous.) is not on the basis of works at all.

4. How can 2 and 3 both be true? They can both be true if the good works that procure our ultimate salvation are the product of the Holy Spirit.
FA: Ah, see where you are going. That sounds like a Reformed approach. I do not agree here, just FYI. This could prove to be an interesting discussion. Those good works which we do as a result of the work of the Spirit in our lives has nothing to do with our justification, though they do with our sanctification (practical). There are two senses (at least) in which sanctification is used in the NT. One is regarding having been set apart at our new birth for His use (sometimes called "positional sanctification"). The other is the process of becoming more like Him - of being purified - changed into his image from one degree of glory to the next.
Anyway, our works do affect our sanctification (not positional). They have absolutely nothing to do with our justification, which is a process of the Spirit as a result of Christ's death for our sins, which we appropriate by faith alone. (Sorry, I guess not so "brief.")

But I must insist, Paul means what he says in Romans 2 - the criteria that God will look at on the last day are the good works.
FA: You'll have to explain your thinking here. The good works are the work of Christ on the cross, IMO, not some works that we are able to accomplish, and do live-out, as a result of the Spirit. No one can live a sinless life, even through the Spirit, since we still occupy this flesh. And sinlessness is what it would require.

God will give to each person according to what he has done."[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%202;&version=31;#fen-NIV-27954a)] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life
FA: The use of "eternal life" here is a more inclusive term, including the life we live out now as well as the future when we are in His presence. This use of eternal life includes the idea of rewards for works done in this life, in our flesh, through the power of the Holy Spirit. (Romans 10:12-14 and 2 Corinthians 5:10 - the BEMA seat)

I entirely agree that faith is fully sufficient to ensure these good works are produced - but Paul means what he says, it is the good works that will be the measuring stick at the last day.
IMO we can live a tremendous life as a result of being indwelt by the Holy Spirit. But since we still have this "body of flesh," no one ever does it 100% successfully.

Any works done by us are something about which we can boast, and our salvation (justification) is not anything about which we can "boast."

Very interesting stuff. I'm looking forward to seeing you flesh out your concept of justification/sanctification. As you do, please explain if IYO a Christian can live sinlessly through the Spirit and why living completely sinlessly would not be required in such a soteriology.

Oh, just a comment that sometimes it takes me 2 or 3 days before I can respond.

Thx,

BD

drew
Jan 21st 2009, 09:48 PM
Also, just FYI, I agree that there are places in the NT in which Paul is specifically referring to works of the Law (Torah), though that does not necessarily mean that arguments regarding the place of works (in general) in our salvation does not apply there.
I agree


Regarding Ephesians 2 - I do not agree that Ephesians 2:8, 9 is referring to the OT Law, though that is obviously not excluded.
Here is an argument as to why we should understand Ephesians 2:9 as referring to the Torah, and not to "good works" in general.

I believe that in Ephesians 2:9, Paul is denying the salvific power of doing the works of Torah, and is not talking about the more general category of “good works”.

To be fair here, the reader needs to unshackle himself from the deeply ingrained, reformation inspired, pre-disposition to read "works" as "good works" in Ephesians 2:9. Once freed of that pre-disposition, the reader can then ask the question as which of the following views makes more sense given the arguments Paul mounts in verse 11 and following (and other stuff we know Paul believes):

1. The salvific power of doing good works is being denied in verse 9;
2. The salvific power of doing the works of the Law of Moses (the Torah) is being denied in verse 9.

Explanation 2 is the one that makes sense in light of what Paul goes on to say in verse 11 as well as what he says in Romans 3, where he makes it clear that, in respect to good works, the Jew and the Gentile are in the same boat.

Proceeding to an examination of Ephesians 2:11 and following, Paul uses the "therefore" to show us that he is now going to fill out the implications of what he has just said. This is important because what follows will help disambiguate what Paul means by "works" in verse 9.

Therefore remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

Paul is clearly now talking about the Jew-Gentile divide, and how the actions of Jesus have brought Jew and Gentile together. Remember the "therefore" from verse 11 - Paul is telling us the implications of his verse 9 statement that none are saved by "works". Now here it becomes clear that these are the works of Torahsince, obviously, it is by doing the works of Torah, being "under Torah" as it were, that the Jew could say "I am part of God's covenant people" or I am a member of "Israel". What marks out the nation Israel from the Gentile? Possession and doing of Torah, of course. This is an exceedingly powerful argument - Paul here is obviously talking about the basis on which the Gentiles were excluded from membership in the covenant family - and that basis is obviously the possession of Torah and doing its works.

14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations

How much more clear could Paul be - he is talking about Torah. What has divided the Jew from the Gentile and been the barrier? Good works? Obviously not, both Jew and Gentile are in Adam – they are on “the same side” of any good works barrier (fisrt 20 or so verses of Romans 3). It is doing the works of Torah, of course, that is the very thing that the Jew might otherwise boast in and which is now being declared to not be salvific.

What Paul says in verses 11 and following does not cohere with a “works = good works” interpretation but makes perfect sense if we understand the "works" in verse 9 as the works of Torah, and not "good works" in the more general sense.

BadDog
Jan 21st 2009, 10:38 PM
Thx Drew. I'll try to look at this and get back to you in the next couple of days.

BD

My heart's Desire
Jan 22nd 2009, 03:13 AM
Nah... we are quite far apart. I do not subscribe at all to the ultra-grace teaching of just believe and you're in like flint. This is where rev and I strongly disagree. It is a continuing belief... a working belief. The very word disciple denotes one that not only believes but one that follows their master. That very well describes John 10 that our eternal security friends like to toss out in every eternal security discussion. The part they struggle with... that it is present active in other words... enduring to the end. :)
On a personal note, do you feel that at any one point of your life you might just sin or not endure to the end? Do you have any assurance that you will make it to the end of your life thereby finding out in the end that you were really saved somewhere along the way? Do you have any fear that your faith might not remain active as you put it somewhere along the way? Do you have such faith in your flesh that you can endure all things?

Based on your theology, do you tell people they cannot know if they are saved until after death?

Emanate
Jan 22nd 2009, 03:19 AM
How much more clear could Paul be - he is talking about Torah. What has divided the Jew from the Gentile and been the barrier? Good works? Obviously not, both Jew and Gentile are in Adam – they are on “the same side” of any good works barrier (fisrt 20 or so verses of Romans 3). It is doing the works of Torah, of course, that is the very thing that the Jew might otherwise boast in and which is now being declared to not be salvific.

Sir, you are 100% wrong. This barrier was found in Jewish Law not in Torah. I understand you know nothing of Jewish Law vs. Torah, so this is a common mistake.

The obvious reason is that good works as defined by Torah are the same found in the NT

ProjectPeter
Jan 22nd 2009, 03:25 AM
On a personal note, do you feel that at any one point of your life you might just sin or not endure to the end?I can pretty much guarantee that at some point in my life I'll sin. ;) A sin doesn't mean you "lose your salvation." As to whether or not I endure to the end... My plan is to endure to the end. God has supplied all that I need to do just that.


Do you have any assurance that you will make it to the end of your life thereby finding out in the end that you were really saved somewhere along the way? Have a written guarantee actually. 2 Peter 1:1-11... if I practice those things then I'll never stumble.


Do you have any fear that your faith might not remain active as you put it somewhere along the way? Do you have such faith in your flesh that you can endure all things?The only thing that I fear is God. Everything else I could fear would be foolish.


Based on your theology, do you tell people they cannot know if they are saved until after death?If they don't "know" they are saved then they don't really have faith at all. So no... I'd not tell them that at all.

My heart's Desire
Jan 22nd 2009, 04:16 AM
Which means everyone other than a Jew. ;) It ain't rocket science.

Again... where are you digging this stuff up from? The synagogue wasn't the Temple.

And you are just plain incorrect.

Acts 13:46 And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, "It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it, and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.
47 "For thus the Lord has commanded us, `I HAVE PLACED YOU AS A LIGHT FOR THE GENTILES, THAT YOU SHOULD BRING SALVATION TO THE END OF THE EARTH.´"
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
49 And the word of the Lord was being spread through the whole region.

He preached to the Jews first... Gentiles second. Not freaky Jews that weren't really Jews but were Jews in birth only. :rolleyes:


My understanding is as you on this one. All though the Bible it concerns itself with either Israel or the Nations. Isn't Israel always referred to as the Nation of Israel and not Nations thereof?

I also believe the disciples were told to only go to the Israelites, but only as far as till AFTER Jesus rose again. I do believe it looks as if the main disciples themselves continued for the most part to minister to the Jewish people but at Pentecost the Church was born and the message taken also to Gentiles. I would find it hard to believe that the disciples didn't also preach to Gentiles (the Nations) after the resurrection.

My heart's Desire
Jan 22nd 2009, 04:52 AM
That was of first importance... that wasn't the entire gospel. ;)


It seemed to be to Paul....Now I make known to you, brethren, THE gospel which I preached to you, which you received....BY which YOU are saved...

What was the gospel that he had received that he delivered to them.?
it was that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and that He was raised on the 3rd day.
When he refers to "the Scriptures" do you think he was referring the O.T or the Gospels scriptures?

My heart's Desire
Jan 22nd 2009, 05:01 AM
I can pretty much guarantee that at some point in my life I'll sin. ;) A sin doesn't mean you "lose your salvation." As to whether or not I endure to the end... My plan is to endure to the end. God has supplied all that I need to do just that.


But you do believe the Bible teaches loss of Salvation. Based on what? Not enduring? Sorry to be a pest, but I'm trying to understand you. I didn't know it at the time but Mormonism (just mentioning that's all, not to discuss what they believe, no need to go to controversial, :)) seems to believe quite the same, as far as enduring, but surely you are saying something different.

If you believe that because of Christ you will endure then sounds alot like eternal security to me.

ProjectPeter
Jan 22nd 2009, 01:58 PM
It seemed to be to Paul....Now I make known to you, brethren, THE gospel which I preached to you, which you received....BY which YOU are saved...

What was the gospel that he had received that he delivered to them.?
it was that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and that He was raised on the 3rd day.
When he refers to "the Scriptures" do you think he was referring the O.T or the Gospels scriptures?
You left off a whole bunch.

1 Corinthians 15:1 *Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
2 *by which also you are saved,if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
3 *For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

ProjectPeter
Jan 22nd 2009, 02:02 PM
But you do believe the Bible teaches loss of Salvation. Based on what? Not enduring? Sorry to be a pest, but I'm trying to understand you. I didn't know it at the time but Mormonism (just mentioning that's all, not to discuss what they believe, no need to go to controversial, :)) seems to believe quite the same, as far as enduring, but surely you are saying something different.

If you believe that because of Christ you will endure then sounds alot like eternal security to me.You aren't saved in finality until you have endured to the end. Right now... you are simply saved by faith. Salvation becomes a final reality when you have endured to the end... stood fast... persevered... etc.

Mormons believe no such thing. In truth Mormon's hold more to a universalist belief for believers (their belief) and annihilation for those that don't. They are far far far away from what I believe. That's a pretty cheesy tactic when one throws out a cult doctrine to try and liken that to anothers. Especially when you really don't know what Mormon's believe. ;)

drew
Jan 22nd 2009, 03:39 PM
Sir, you are 100% wrong. This barrier was found in Jewish Law not in Torah. I understand you know nothing of Jewish Law vs. Torah, so this is a common mistake.
I think I am correct - the barrier that has been abolished is the Torah.

I think the mistake is to take what are clear references to the abolition of the Torah and, without justification, conclude that something other than Torah is being abolished (such as "man-made" distortions or add-ons).

Some argue that in Ephesians 2:15, Paul is not asserting the abolition of Torah per se, but rather the abolition of man-made add-ons, or perversions, of it. I think the contextual evidence is pretty clear - Paul is talking about "actual" Torah here.

11Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands-- 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.
14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit

First, let us address the matter of identifying the two groups described in this passage. I think that the two peoples that are "divided" here are the Jews and the Gentiles. One group is described as "Gentiles in the flesh", and "uncircumcision". Clearly this is the Gentiles. Paul contrasts this group with another group - the "circumcision in the flesh" people. Clearly, this second group is the Jews. He goes on to say that the first group - the Gentiles - are "excluded from Israel and foreigners to the covenants". This is a clear reference to the Jew-Gentile distinction. It is the Jew - the one circumcised in the flesh - who is under the covenant promises. So I can not see ambiguity here - Paul is describing a Jew-Gentile distinction.

Consider verse 12. Why was the Gentile excluded from citizenship in Israel? I suggest that the reason is Torah - the Torah was effectively a national charter for the Jews, it is Torah, not distortions to it, that marks out "citizenship in Israel". It is the abolition of the Torah that supports a sensible interpretation of the material from 14 on to 18, material which is all about the newly achieved unity of Jew and Gentile. How would one naturally bring Jew and Gentile together? Obviously by getting rid of the complex set of practices, ceremonies, and rituals which are for Jew and Jew only. The Torah, being for Jews only, effectively excluded the Gentile from membership in God's true family (Israel). After all, it is the Torah that marked the Jew out from her pagan neighbour.

Second, consider the Greek language used here. Paul uses the word "nomon" (rendered as “the law”) to refer to what is abolished. As has been argued in detail elsewhere, He uses this exact same word to obviously refer to Torah, not "man-made" ordnances, in these verses from Romans 3:

because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

The reader needs to ask him(her) self this question. How likely is it that the highly educated and articulate Paul would use the same "nomos" term in two places, to address the very same issue - how we are justified and what the implications of that are - and yet mean Torah in one place (Romans 3) and man-made ordnances in the other?

And to sharpen the case that the same issue is on the table in both places, notice how in the last 10 or verses of Romans 3, the justification matter has occasioned Paul to contemplate the implications re the Jew-Gentile divide. Note Romans 3:29-30:

Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.

In both texts, the Jew-Gentile implications of justification are being addressed. How likely, then, is it that Paul would the same key word - nomos - in both places to denote two entirely different things?

The Ephesians text loses all unity and coherence on a reading where it is not Torah, but rather distortions of it that are being abolished. Most specifically, the abolition of (only) man-made perversions or add-ons to Torah in no way explains what Paul goes on to say about the Jew and the Gentile being brought together. How would the abolition of only the man-made add-ons to Torah bring about the unification of Jew and Gentile - if the very thing that actually demarcated the Jew from the Gentile, the Torah, remains intact? On such a view, the Torah remains as what it always was - a covenant charter for Jew and Jew only.

So if one is going to abolish something that would bring these groups together, as Paul says they have indeed been brought together, the abolution of man-man made distortions to the Torah will not do the job. Even with such distortions or add-ons abolished, the Torah itself with its myriad of prescriptions and practices specific to the Jew. would still stand as a clear boundary marker. Remember, Paul says that in Christ, "there is neither Jew nor Greek".

And what about verse 12 to 14? These verses will leave the reader anticipating that Paul will now go on to say something about how the Gentile has been brought into citizenship in Israel. To assert the abolition of only the man-made add-ons is hardly a credible next move for Paul, since such a claim leaves intact the very thing the marks the Jew from the Gentile - the Torah.

So the explanation that the Torah is being abolished reveals a coherent argument whereas the explanation that man-made add-ons (or perversions) will leave reader asking himself "How would the abolition of those things bring the Gentile into the family of God?" After all, the Torah does not need to be perverted or "added to" to make it a thing that demarcates Jew from Gentile - the Torah does that "as delivered from God" (by such things as Sabbath, purity laws, special holidays, etc.).

drew
Jan 22nd 2009, 03:56 PM
Sir, you are 100% wrong. This barrier was found in Jewish Law not in Torah. I understand you know nothing of Jewish Law vs. Torah, so this is a common mistake.

The obvious reason is that good works as defined by Torah are the same found in the NT
In my previous post, I provided an argument about why we should understand Paul as declaring the abolition of Torah. In this post, I address the material bolded in the above.

This statement is not really accurate. The Torah contained many dictates that are absent from the New Testament, and some are even explicitly overturned in the New Testament.

Consider the Levitical food laws. Jesus overturns them in Mark 7 - we can discuss that if you like.

I should have been more careful in my explanation of what I mean why I claim, following Paul at several places, that the Torah has been "abolished". After all, Paul, at several points states that Torah has been established.

Paul's view of the status of Torah is complex and subtle and can seem self-contradictory at time.

I suggest that this is the correct position about Torah:

1. It has been abolished specifically as a set of pre-scriptive rules and regulations. This is perhaps less controversial in relation to things like food purity law and Sabbath. What is more difficult is the "moral dimension" of Torah - commands like "do not steal". Clearly, no sane person would say that since Torah has been "abolished", it is OK to go out and rob a bank. But we can legitimately say the "written code", including the "thou shalt not steal" command, is now replaced by the Spirit who tells us these things in a manner deeper and more fundamental than by a "set of do's and don't's". I admit this is complex, but I think it is clear - Paul declares the end of Torah as a codified set of rules and practices.

2. Paul argues in Romans 10 that the real essence of Torah - what Torah was really leading to - is the declaration that Jesus has risen from the dead and is Lord. If you do this - and mean it - you are doing Torah in the sense that Torah has been established (as per the end of Romans 3).

My heart's Desire
Jan 22nd 2009, 08:24 PM
You left off a whole bunch.

1 Corinthians 15:1 *Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
2 *by which also you are saved,if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
3 *For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
I did! So, why would someone NOT want to hold fast the word that Jesus died, was buried and rose again?

My heart's Desire
Jan 22nd 2009, 08:28 PM
You aren't saved in finality until you have endured to the end. Right now... you are simply saved by faith. Salvation becomes a final reality when you have endured to the end... stood fast... persevered... etc.

Mormons believe no such thing. In truth Mormon's hold more to a universalist belief for believers (their belief) and annihilation for those that don't. They are far far far away from what I believe. That's a pretty cheesy tactic when one throws out a cult doctrine to try and liken that to anothers. Especially when you really don't know what Mormon's believe. ;)
I did read what they believe, but I personally don't want to discuss it in detail. All I'm saying is that if you put in a search engine the phrase "endure to the end" you will come up with a whole bunch of LDS websites.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 22nd 2009, 10:01 PM
You aren't saved in finality until you have endured to the end. Right now... you are simply saved by faith. Salvation becomes a final reality when you have endured to the end... stood fast... persevered... etc.

Hi Ken!

2John 1:1 The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;
2John 1:2 For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever.

1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

"if ye keep in memory"
if ye keep down
if ye hold fast

I don't believe that this is meaning 'endures to the end', but that it takes root and bares some fruit.

The word is the seed:

In the parable of the sower, the ground that bare fruit, was the one who received the word and understood.

If it is received and understood, then it will hold fast, take root and bare fruit.

The fruit of the Spirit is love

1Co 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind; love does not envy; love does not boast, is not puffed up;
1Co 13:5 does not behave disgracefully, does not seek its own, is not provoked to anger, thinks no evil;
1Co 13:6 does not rejoice over unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth;
1Co 13:7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
1Co 13:8a Love never fails. :pp

ProjectPeter
Jan 22nd 2009, 10:06 PM
I did! So, why would someone NOT want to hold fast the word that Jesus died, was buried and rose again?Why would a mother kill their child? Why would a man beat his wife? Why would a person drive drunk? Why would Judas betray Jesus? There are many reasons I suspect. That it seems nuts and far-fetched doesn't change the fact that these things happen and can happen.

ProjectPeter
Jan 22nd 2009, 10:10 PM
I did read what they believe, but I personally don't want to discuss it in detail. All I'm saying is that if you put in a search engine the phrase "endure to the end" you will come up with a whole bunch of LDS websites.
If you put Jesus Christ in the search engine then you will come up with a lot of other sites that are far from Christian... so what?

ProjectPeter
Jan 22nd 2009, 10:12 PM
Hi Ken!

2John 1:1 The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;
2John 1:2 For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever.

1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

"if ye keep in memory"
if ye keep down
if ye hold fast

I don't believe that this is meaning 'endures to the end', but that it takes root and bares some fruit.

The word is the seed:

In the parable of the sower, the ground that bare fruit, was the one who received the word and understood.

If it is received and understood, then it will hold fast, take root and bare fruit.

The fruit of the Spirit is love

1Co 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind; love does not envy; love does not boast, is not puffed up;
1Co 13:5 does not behave disgracefully, does not seek its own, is not provoked to anger, thinks no evil;
1Co 13:6 does not rejoice over unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth;
1Co 13:7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
1Co 13:8a Love never fails. :pp
Well if you don't see those as the same as enduring... not much I can say to you because that is the clear meaning of those phrases. Goodness... same as "abide"... if you don't ENDURE/ABIDE/HOLD FAST/ etc... you won't bear fruit because you are outside of that vine which is Christ.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 22nd 2009, 10:48 PM
Well if you don't see those as the same as enduring... not much I can say to you because that is the clear meaning of those phrases. Goodness... same as "abide"... if you don't ENDURE/ABIDE/HOLD FAST/ etc... you won't bear fruit because you are outside of that vine which is Christ.

Then you say, we will not bare fruit until we have endured to the end?

1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

ProjectPeter
Jan 22nd 2009, 11:37 PM
Then you say, we will not bare fruit until we have endured to the end?

1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
No... unless you abide in the vine. That means stay in it... endure in it... hold fast... stand firm... don't go no where... continue.... carry on... etc.

shepherdsword
Jan 22nd 2009, 11:52 PM
Nah... we are quite far apart. I do not subscribe at all to the ultra-grace teaching of just believe and you're in like flint. This is where rev and I strongly disagree. It is a continuing belief... a working belief. The very word disciple denotes one that not only believes but one that follows their master. That very well describes John 10 that our eternal security friends like to toss out in every eternal security discussion. The part they struggle with... that it is present active in other words... enduring to the end. :)

:agree:
I see, I was under the impression,by his use of the word "strive" that we were all on the same page. I see now that perhaps I should have read ALL of the discourse. In any event, I agree fully with your position. I live my life for that one moment when out Lord will say "Well done, my good and faithful servant" I don't what to hear " Depart from me you worker of iniquity"

Partaker of Christ
Jan 23rd 2009, 12:10 AM
No... unless you abide in the vine. That means stay in it... endure in it... hold fast... stand firm... don't go no where... continue.... carry on... etc.

So when do we bare fruit?

How will we know them by their fruit, if they do not bare fruit until they have endured to the end?

1John 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
1John 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

"If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain [abide] in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father"

This 'remain in you' cannot mean 'to endure to the end', because it says that if it remain [abide] in you, you shall continue in the Son and in the Father.

If you are baring fruit. you WILL abide. For to bare fruit, does mean that the word you heard and understood, remains [abides]

ProjectPeter
Jan 23rd 2009, 12:31 AM
So when do we bare fruit?

How will we know them by their fruit, if they do not bare fruit until they have endured to the end?

1John 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
1John 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

"If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain [abide] in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father"

This 'remain in you' cannot mean 'to endure to the end', because it says that if it remain [abide] in you, you shall continue in the Son and in the Father.

If you are baring fruit. you WILL abide. For to bare fruit, does mean that the word you heard and understood, remains [abides]
Uh... remain until when? Come on... do you think honestly that Paul was talking about only remaining until the time they read that letter or for a week or two?

shepherdsword
Jan 23rd 2009, 12:53 AM
Uh... remain until when? Come on... do you think honestly that Paul was talking about only remaining until the time they read that letter or for a week or two?

Of all the topics that we play with here here this one is in the "no play" zone.
This is serious stuff.There are many people who think they are going to heaven but will find that at life's end that is not so. Striving to enter in by the straight gate isn't salvation by works. Abiding faithful in the vine isn't salvation by works. It is allowing the grace of God to have full course in our life.
I have never liked a definition of grace that is limited to "unmerited favor"
That's not a definition it's a synonym. Grace is an enabling power that allows you to walk the christian life. If you say "I am saved by grace" then your life better show that grace is in operation in your life. You cannot be saved by grace if grace isn't allowed to work in your life.
The "easy grace" message is in reality "another gospel". We were forewarned what would happen to the church in the last days and we are right in the middle of it.

ProjectPeter
Jan 23rd 2009, 01:05 AM
Of all the topics that we play with here here this one is in the "no play" zone.
This is serious stuff.There are many people who think they are going to heaven but will find that at life's end that is not so. Striving to enter in by the straight gate isn't salvation by works. Abiding faithful in the vine isn't salvation by works. It is allowing the grace of God to have full course in our life.
I have never liked a definition of grace that is limited to "unmerited favor"
That's not a definition it's a synonym. Grace is an enabling power that allows you to walk the christian life. If you say "I am saved by grace" then your life better show that grace is in operation in your life. You cannot be saved by grace if grace isn't allowed to work in your life.
The "easy grace" message is in reality "another gospel". We were forewarned what would happen to the church in the last days and we are right in the middle of it.
And in that I agree totally.

My heart's Desire
Jan 23rd 2009, 02:40 AM
Anything other than pure grace is a work, merit based gospel that glorifies the man.

ProjectPeter
Jan 23rd 2009, 02:48 AM
Anything other than pure grace is a work, merit based gospel that glorifies the man.
So when Paul preached that both Jew and Gentile should repent and turn to God and do deeds worthy of repentance... that was a work, merit based gospel glorifying man?

My heart's Desire
Jan 23rd 2009, 02:52 AM
If you put Jesus Christ in the search engine then you will come up with a lot of other sites that are far from Christian... so what?
What's that got to do with anything? I wanted to know what denomination or what group or what percentage of Christians believe in enduring to the end and if it's related to one's ultimate salvation and why. I don't believe doing such a thing insults my intelligence.

mikebr
Jan 23rd 2009, 02:52 AM
The real good news is that here are these rules that you have to keep and if you don't keep them good 'nuf then yer gone burn in hhhhhheeeelllllllllll!:o

My heart's Desire
Jan 23rd 2009, 03:00 AM
Wow, page 12 and going for gold! Looks like another about to run its course. :) Blessings to all.

ProjectPeter
Jan 23rd 2009, 03:13 AM
What's that got to do with anything? I wanted to know what denomination or what group or what percentage of Christians believe in enduring to the end and if it's related to one's ultimate salvation and why. I don't believe doing such a thing insults my intelligence.I see. You just happened to bring up the cult group out of a myriad of legit groups. Got it. ;)

ProjectPeter
Jan 23rd 2009, 03:14 AM
The real good news is that here are these rules that you have to keep and if you don't keep them good 'nuf then yer gone burn in hhhhhheeeelllllllllll!:o
It is great news if you are one of those not keeping the rules and on the way to hell. Just a matter of how you look at it eh?

ProjectPeter
Jan 23rd 2009, 03:16 AM
Wow, page 12 and going for gold! Looks like another about to run its course. :) Blessings to all.
Set it to view 40 post and it is only page five and not nearly as dramatic! :lol:

My heart's Desire
Jan 23rd 2009, 04:15 AM
It is great news if you are one of those not keeping the rules and on the way to hell. Just a matter of how you look at it eh?
So keeping the rules is the way to heaven?

My heart's Desire
Jan 23rd 2009, 04:17 AM
I see. You just happened to bring up the cult group out of a myriad of legit groups. Got it. ;)
Although I love the banter, I'll let you have the last word. ;)

billy-brown 2
Jan 23rd 2009, 04:27 AM
Set it to view 40 post and it is only page five and not nearly as dramatic! :lol:

Hi all,

This is one of the greatest threads at this site--may it continue forever . . . for the learning of all . . . Congrats to all for having the courage to share . . .

An answer to the question "What is the gospel?" must surely include the following:

The gospel is a message from God which is designed to reconcile mankind back to God from the fall of the Creation and bring mankind to eventual immortality at the return of Christ.

So, the goal of gospel proclamation, then, is not only to allow man to experience the "new birth", but to have a "proving" of our relationship with God (through suffering) so that we are "accounted worthy of the Kingdom of God" (as suggested by II Thess. 1:3-10) when Jesus returns. Of course, we enter the Kingdom of God at the New Birth, but the consummation of our "salvation" only occurs "when our bodies are changed" (Phil. 3:21).

At any rate, here are some scripture passages that has helped me concerning the Gospel . . .

The Apostle Paul writes in Eph. 1:3-14:

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. 5 He destined us in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace 8 which he lavished upon us. 9 For he has made known to us in all wisdom and insight the mystery of his will, according to his purpose which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. 11 In him, according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 we who first hoped in Christ have been destined and appointed to live for the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 which is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

And the Apostle Peter writes also in I Pet. 1:3-13:

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By his great mercy we have been born anew to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and to an inheritance which is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 5 who by God's power are guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In this you rejoice, though now for a little while you may have to suffer various trials, 7 so that the genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold which though perishable is tested by fire, may redound to praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 8 Without having seen him you love him; though you do not now see him you believe in him and rejoice with unutterable and exalted joy. 9 As the outcome of your faith you obtain the salvation of your souls. 10 The prophets who prophesied of the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired about this salvation; 11 they inquired what person or time was indicated by the Spirit of Christ within them when predicting the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glory. 12 It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things which have now been announced to you by those who preached the good news to you through the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look. 13 Therefore gird up your minds, be sober, set your hope fully upon the grace that is coming to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Obviously, I have scratched the surface on the "so great salvation" that is held out in the Gospel. But it is my hope that we will continue a thread like this.

(The question in the OP is surely one what we MUST get right . . . almost every false doctrine comes from answering this question incorrectly.)

Love,

Billy-brown 2

:pp

shepherdsword
Jan 23rd 2009, 05:08 AM
Anything other than pure grace is a work, merit based gospel that glorifies the man.


Grace DOES the work.Grace is the enabling power. If the work isn't being performed by grace you have a false gospel.There WILL be a work performed. If your "grace" message isn't producing righteousness in your behavior then you have a false message.
I think that when it comes to the gospel we should let the apostles speak and not spout out some doctrine we heard man preach from the pulpit:

2 Peter 3
14Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord salvation; even as our beloved brother [I]Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

My heart's Desire
Jan 23rd 2009, 05:23 AM
not spout out some doctrine we heard man preach from the pulpit:


I'm an avid student of the Word alone for years and search to see if things said are so. I also believe grace produces righteous living yet that is a product of having been saved.
You are right. The only way to be found at peace, without spot and blameless is to accept the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Who gave His life for our Sin so that we may be saved.

shepherdsword
Jan 23rd 2009, 06:08 AM
I'm an avid student of the Word alone for years and search to see if things said are so. I also believe grace produces righteous living yet that is a product of having been saved.
You are right. The only way to be found at peace, without spot and blameless is to accept the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Who gave His life for our Sin so that we may be saved.

The remark wasn't aimed at you personally. The remark is geared towards those who seem to think that salvation is nothing more than parroting the sinners prayer without any real fruit to show as a result.I have also studied the bible for many years. I have also studied the original languages and the writings of the early church fathers. I have found many of the popular doctrines taught from today's pulpits to be demonstratively false.

Mat 7
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Denny606
Jan 23rd 2009, 06:56 AM
The power of God unto Salvation or am I crazy

ProjectPeter
Jan 23rd 2009, 12:29 PM
So keeping the rules is the way to heaven?
You aren't in heaven yet... I'd recommend keeping the rules. ;)

ProjectPeter
Jan 23rd 2009, 12:31 PM
I'm an avid student of the Word alone for years and search to see if things said are so. I also believe grace produces righteous living yet that is a product of having been saved.
You are right. The only way to be found at peace, without spot and blameless is to accept the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Who gave His life for our Sin so that we may be saved.
That is simply the starting line... where it begins. There is still a race to be ran once one toes the line and gets in the race. Hopefully that analogy sounds familiar. :)

My heart's Desire
Jan 23rd 2009, 03:24 PM
The remark wasn't aimed at you personally. The remark is geared towards those who seem to think that salvation is nothing more than parroting the sinners prayer without any real fruit to show as a result.
Thank you. I appreciate that. The Will of the Father is to believe in the One Who He has sent. I also know that sinners prayer does present the danger of intellectual consent only. You know the analogy about the 18 inches from the head to the heart. :)

mikebr
Jan 24th 2009, 03:16 AM
You aren't in heaven yet... I'd recommend keeping the rules. ;)


I think I'll stick with Paul's recommendation. It is by grace I am saved not by rules or I'd be running round braggin' about me keepin' um.:pp

Denny606
Jan 24th 2009, 04:52 AM
Of all the topics that we play with here here this one is in the "no play" zone.
This is serious stuff.There are many people who think they are going to heaven but will find that at life's end that is not so. Striving to enter in by the straight gate isn't salvation by works. Abiding faithful in the vine isn't salvation by works. It is allowing the grace of God to have full course in our life.
I have never liked a definition of grace that is limited to "unmerited favor"
That's not a definition it's a synonym. Grace is an enabling power that allows you to walk the christian life. If you say "I am saved by grace" then your life better show that grace is in operation in your life. You cannot be saved by grace if grace isn't allowed to work in your life.
The "easy grace" message is in reality "another gospel". We were forewarned what would happen to the church in the last days and we are right in the middle of it. Amen,The day will come when they will not endure sound doctrine ,but turning to teachers having itching ears ,to fables....this is an important subject that should not be taken lightly. By grace are we saved but it is through faith ,not of works lest any man should boast,It is a free gift of God. Now don't think I believe you are saved and then it is all milk and honey from then on ,By their fruits ye shall know them and I have heard every kind of question and explanation about fruit there is in less than 24hrs. on here.My belief is the way you live your life should tell people that you are a Christian and we should share what the Lord has done for us since we were saved,converted,believed from the heart,How ever you want to word it.Faith is given to everyone by God ....but you have to add to it and believe with your whole heart that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

My heart's Desire
Jan 24th 2009, 05:02 AM
I'll always believe once saved always saved. I don't believe in frustating or making void the Grace of God by adding to it.
There I go again. I'm trying really hard to get away from this thread! :)

Owen
Jan 24th 2009, 05:03 AM
Oh, the memories this thread brings back. :) Of course, this thread is a perfect OSAS/NOSAS candidate! Way to go PP, keeping up the good work. :)

Anyways, to address the original question of this thread (even if it seems to long been passed), the gospel can not be understood by any set of doctrinal statements. The gospel isn't a set of beliefs. It is about something that is happening. Jesus preaching about the gospel (or good news) was that the kingdom of God was coming.

Now this gospel of the Kingdom isn't some individualized, spiritualized hope in getting their sins forgiven and resting in a spiritual heaven. It should be understood in its Jewish context.

Isaiah 52:1-15:

Awake, awake, put on your strength, O Zion! Put on your beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city; for the uncircumcised and the unclean shall enter you no more. Shake yourself from the dust, rise up, O captive Jerusalem; loose the bonds from your neck, O captive daughter Zion! For thus says the Lord: You were sold for nothing, and you shall be redeemed without money. For thus says the Lord God: Long ago, my people went down into Egypt to reside there as aliens; the Assyrian, too, has oppressed them without cause. Now therefore what am I doing here, says the Lord, seeing that my people are taken away without cause? Their rulers howl, says the Lord, and continually, all day long, my name is despised. Therefore my people shall know my name; therefore in that day they shall know that it is I who speak; here am I.

How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of the messenger who announces peace, who brings good news, who announces salvation, who says to Zion, "Your God reigns." Listen! Your sentinels lift up their voices, together they sing for joy; for in plain sight they see the return of the Lord to Zion. Break forth together into singing, you ruins of Jerusalem; for the Lord has comforted his people, he has redeemed Jerusalem. The Lord has bared his holy arm before the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God. Depart, depart, go out from there! Touch no unclean thing; go out from the midst of it, purify yourselves, you who carry the vessels of the Lord. For you shall not go out in haste, and you shall not go in flight; for the Lord will go before you, and the God of Israel will be your rear guard.

See, my servant shall prosper; he shall be exalted and lifted up, and shall be very high. Just as there were many who were astonished at him —so marred was his appearance, beyond human semblance, and his form beyond that of mortals— so he shall startle many nations; kings shall shut their mouths because of him; for that which had not been told them they shall see, and that which they had not heard they shall contemplate.

This passage contains the basic Jewish hope, to which Jesus was speaking to. Israel was captive under Babylon (notice the italicized parts fitting in with the motif of captivity and freedom). That good news was that God was going to free Israel from Babylon. But pressing it forward to Jesus' message, it was that God was going to bring His reign on earth (kingdom), which would destroy all other oppressive regimes (literally other kingdoms, but metaphorically other things) so that rejoice and happiness can be had, or more particularly, peace/shalom (see underlined part).

All the oppressors will negated so that God's people could live in peace, harmony, and happiness. No where in the text of Isaiah 52 is it about forgiveness, or heaven, as we have turned the gospel into today. Certainly, those may be part of the gospel, but the gospel isn't about what God is doing for me individually. It is about what God is doing to bring about shalom. That is why Jesus was healing, because it was part of God's Kingdom coming in and he was showing it (although God's Kingdom isn't exclusively about healing in the present).

In other words, God will reign, and everything that might be a hindrance to the happiness of God's people will be removed, things or even people. And so the good news is that God will allow us to become His people without first changing our ways, but we must be the people who are pressing on towards being people who will not be sources of harm (so we get in without works, but we must be growing in obedience once we are in). Turn to Isaiah 1:20-26 to see how God promised to remove the evil doers from Jerusalem, and through doing that, would make the city righteous again.

Jesus comes into this because He is the very grounds of hope or knowledge for us to becoming the people that are fit to live God's kingdom. Just as Jesus died, was raised from the dead to reign at God's side forever, we too can be. We trust that God through what he revealed to us in Jesus (echoes of 1 Peter 1:21) will raise our bodies up from the dead also. The fear of death no longer enslaves us (Hebrews 2:14), so we are free to be righteous and abstain from sin (see Romans 6 also). Jesus also shows us God's own righteous nature that we are to have ("Be complete as your heavenly father is complete"; "Be holy, for I am holy"), so emulation of/following the foot steps of Jesus is critical so that just as Jesus was raised to eternal life, we too would be. Without Jesus, we wouldn't know what it completely means to be righteous (Laws can only go so far in teaching). Without Jesus, we wouldn't know to trust God to even raise our bodies from the dead and so have victory over death, so that we could let go our own concerns and live righteously (hence why Romans 10:9-10 says belief that God raised Jesus is essentially and leads to righteousness).

We might could also say that the gospel includes the fact that Jesus, a human like us, is also our Lord.

But the Gospel can not be boiled down to any few statements. It isn't about a set of propositions. Nor is it really just about us as individuals, as we so often times make it out to be. It isn't about us getting a free ride in without any standards. It is the news that all is wrong with the world is going to be righted with God's coming and growing reign ("Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven"). It is good news for those who are willing to become people, by the held of God, who are fit to live there. But it is bad news for everyone who would rather live selfishly.

shepherdsword
Jan 24th 2009, 06:35 AM
I'll always believe once saved always saved. I don't believe in frustating or making void the Grace of God by adding to it.
There I go again. I'm trying really hard to get away from this thread! :)

It is apparent that to me that anyone who believes OSAS has been indoctrinated by the teachings of men. OSAS is a doctrine that a young bible student thought up when he was 25 years old. You will hardly find anyone who picks up a bible and comes to that position on their own revelation. You have to be brainwashed into believing it.

ProjectPeter
Jan 24th 2009, 01:03 PM
I think I'll stick with Paul's recommendation. It is by grace I am saved not by rules or I'd be running round braggin' about me keepin' um.:ppPaul's rules were very clear and if one is totally honest with themselves they'll see where Paul had plenty. ;)

Repent and turn to God doing deeds worthy of repentance. That was how Paul summed up what he preached. Notice that you guys don't seem to like quoting that one very much though.

doppelganger
Jan 24th 2009, 03:21 PM
Full disclosure: I haven't read all 13 pages of this thread. I just want to contribute some insight that I have found helpful.

1. John Piper (http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/ConferenceMessages/ByDate/1756_Why_Expositional_Preaching_is_Particularly_Gl orifying_to_God/) describes five elements that he considers essential to the gospel:



The gospel is a message about historical events: the life and death and resurrection of Christ—summoning us to open them with thorough expositions of texts.
The gospel is a message about what those events achieved before we experienced anything or even existed: the completion of perfect obedience, the payment for ours sins, the removal of the wrath of God, the installation of Jesus as the crucified and risen Messiah and king of the universe, the disarming of the rulers and authorities, the destruction of death—all of these summoning us to open them with thorough expositions of texts.
The gospel is a message about the transfer of these achievements from Christ to particular persons through our union with Christ by faith alone apart from works—which summons us to open for our people the nature and dynamics of faith by the exposition of dozens of texts.
The gospel is a message about the good things that are now true about us as the achievement of the cross is applied to us in Christ: that God is only merciful to us now instead of wrathful (propitiation), that we are counted righteous in Christ now (justification), that we are freed now from the guilt and power of sin (redemption), that we are positionally and progressively made holy (sanctification)—all of which summons us to open these glorious realities for our people week after week with thorough expositions of texts.
And finally the gospel is a message about the glorious God himself as our final, eternal, all-satisfying Treasure. “We . . . rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation” (Romans 5:11). The gospel we preach is “the gospel of the glory of Christ who is the image of God.” If our gospel stops short of this goal—enjoying God himself, not just his gifts of forgiveness and rescue from hell and eternal life—then we are not preaching “the gospel of the glory of God in the face of Christ” (2 Corinthians 4:6). Our ultimate goal is knowing and enjoying God. As we saw in the beginning of this chapter, that is why we were created—that God might share with us the knowledge and enjoyment of himself. This is what it means for him to love us. This is what the cross ultimately obtained for us. And this too, by every text of Scripture—all of it inspired by God to awaken hope in his glory—calls for the richest exposition that our people may be fed the best and highest food of heaven.



2. Justin Taylor (http://theologica.blogspot.com/2008/09/what-is-gospel.html) summarizes and links to Greg Gilbert's analysis of two different approaches to the gospel: a (narrow) cross-centered view, and a (broad) kingdom-centered view. He argues that both views are necessary, but the cross-centered view comes first and is the primary, essential foundation for the the kingdom-centered view.

mikebr
Jan 24th 2009, 07:09 PM
Paul's rules were very clear and if one is totally honest with themselves they'll see where Paul had plenty. ;)

Repent and turn to God doing deeds worthy of repentance. That was how Paul summed up what he preached. Notice that you guys don't seem to like quoting that one very much though.


It was always after he told us who we were in Christ first.;)

ProjectPeter
Jan 24th 2009, 07:48 PM
It was always after he told us who we were in Christ first.;)
No... that was actually the theme of the gospel. Of first importance, Jesus is the Christ. He died and was resurrected and lives today. Without that you aren't even on the team. Also that message included righteousness, self-control and the judgment to come. With that also came warnings to continue in the faith. Paul didn't quote John 3:16 and consider it all good... as much as that might frost a few shorts. ;)

mikebr
Jan 24th 2009, 10:01 PM
No... that was actually the theme of the gospel. Of first importance, Jesus is the Christ. He died and was resurrected and lives today. Without that you aren't even on the team. Also that message included righteousness, self-control and the judgment to come. With that also came warnings to continue in the faith. Paul didn't quote John 3:16 and consider it all good... as much as that might frost a few shorts. ;)


This left me clueless.

I said: I'll take Paul's recommendation.

you said: Paul said to work

I said: Paul always told us who we were in Christ before he told us to do anything.

And then you said:

No... that was actually the theme of the gospel. Of first importance, Jesus is the Christ. He died and was resurrected and lives today. Without that you aren't even on the team. Also that message included righteousness, self-control and the judgment to come. With that also came warnings to continue in the faith. Paul didn't quote John 3:16 and consider it all good... as much as that might frost a few shorts.

I don't follow you at all.

ProjectPeter
Jan 24th 2009, 10:07 PM
This left me clueless.

I said: I'll take Paul's recommendation.

you said: Paul said to work

I said: Paul always told us who we were in Christ before he told us to do anything.

And then you said:

No... that was actually the theme of the gospel. Of first importance, Jesus is the Christ. He died and was resurrected and lives today. Without that you aren't even on the team. Also that message included righteousness, self-control and the judgment to come. With that also came warnings to continue in the faith. Paul didn't quote John 3:16 and consider it all good... as much as that might frost a few shorts.

I don't follow you at all.
The Scripture that you responded to and in fact really didn't actually mention at all. The fact that Paul preached that we must turn to God and do deeds worthy of repentance. Believing in Christ is simply of first importance. That is not the entire gospel.

mikebr
Jan 24th 2009, 10:15 PM
The Scripture that you responded to and in fact really didn't actually mention at all. The fact that Paul preached that we must turn to God and do deeds worthy of repentance. Believing in Christ is simply of first importance. That is not the entire gospel.


Instead, I spread the message that I first told to the [Jewish] people in Damascus and Jerusalem and throughout the whole country of Judea. I spread the same message to non-Jewish people. Both groups were expected to change the way they thought and acted and to turn to God. I told them to do things that prove they had changed their lives.


You really don't think that I am arguing with this do you? Come on PP. I firmly believe that when we repent, think differently, we will act differently. Show me where Paul said that these folks would go to hell if they didn't?:confused

ProjectPeter
Jan 24th 2009, 10:18 PM
Instead, I spread the message that I first told to the [Jewish] people in Damascus and Jerusalem and throughout the whole country of Judea. I spread the same message to non-Jewish people. Both groups were expected to change the way they thought and acted and to turn to God. I told them to do things that prove they had changed their lives.


You really don't think that I am arguing with this do you? Come on PP. I firmly believe that when we repent, think differently, we will act differently. Show me where Paul said that these folks would go to hell if they didn't?:confused
Uh... okay.

1 Corinthians 6:9 *Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 *nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:19 *Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20 *idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21 *envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you just as I have forewarned you that those who practice such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Good enough or does that not really mean what it is saying either? ;)

mikebr
Jan 24th 2009, 10:22 PM
Uh... okay.

1 Corinthians 6:9 *Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 *nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:19 *Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20 *idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21 *envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you just as I have forewarned you that those who practice such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Good enough or does that not really mean what it is saying either? ;)


No I actually agree with it the way its written. Obviously I'm missing something. I'm going to have to go back and refresh my memory.:note:

ProjectPeter
Jan 24th 2009, 10:31 PM
Okay... works for me. :lol:

Partaker of Christ
Jan 24th 2009, 10:38 PM
The Scripture that you responded to and in fact really didn't actually mention at all. The fact that Paul preached that we must turn to God and do deeds worthy of repentance. Believing in Christ is simply of first importance. That is not the entire gospel.

Then isn't the entire gospel of first importance?

Are you accusing Paul of not delivering the full gospel, as of first importance?

"I know, I will tell them the best bits first, just to tickle their iching ears. Then when I have them hooked, I will tell them the rest"

ProjectPeter
Jan 24th 2009, 10:45 PM
Then isn't the entire gospel of first importance?

Are you accusing Paul of not delivering the full gospel, as of first importance?

"I know, I will tell them the best bits first, just to tickle their iching ears. Then when I have them hooked, I will tell them the rest"
Uh... no but then I suspect there is a bit of contention in what you are saying because I am writing it out pretty clearly... Certainly you know what "of first importance" means... right? Without believing in Christ and the resurrection of Christ then NONE of the other stuff said matters at all because we're all dead in our sin. That is the context of 1 Corinthians 15 is it not? Here... let me help by posting the chapter.

1 Corinthians 15

6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep;
7 then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles;
8 and last of all, as it were to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.
9 For I am the least of the apostles, who am not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me.
11 Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.
12 ¶Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised;
14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain.
15 Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we witnessed against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised.
16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;
17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.
18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
19 If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.
20 ¶But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,
24 then comes the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
27 For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.
28 And when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, that God may be all in all.
29 ¶Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?
30 Why are we also in danger every hour?
31 I protest, brethren, by the boasting in you, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
32 If from human motives I fought with wild beasts at Ephesus, what does it profit me? If the dead are not raised, LET US EAT AND DRINK, FOR TOMORROW WE DIE.
33 Do not be deceived: "Bad company corrupts good morals."
34 Become sober-minded as you ought, and stop sinning; for some have no knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.
35 ¶But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?"
36 You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies;
37 and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else.
38 But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish.
40 There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
45 So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.
49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 ¶Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.
55 "O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY ? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING ?"
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;
57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord.

Paul is simply countering a teaching that there was no resurrection of the dead.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 24th 2009, 10:49 PM
Uh... okay.

1 Corinthians 6:9 *Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 *nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:19 *Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20 *idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21 *envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you just as I have forewarned you that those who practice such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Good enough or does that not really mean what it is saying either? ;)

You forgot this bit ken:

1Co 6:11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

Gal 5:24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Gal 5:25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.
Gal 5:26 Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another

"Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires"

Those who 'practice' the deeds of the flesh, have not crucified the flesh. The warning is, that if they do still practice the deeds of the flesh, then they cannot be belonging to Christ Jesus.

Rom 8:9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 24th 2009, 11:04 PM
Uh... no but then I suspect there is a bit of contention in what you are saying because I am writing it out pretty clearly... Certainly you know what "of first importance" means... right? Without believing in Christ and the resurrection of Christ then NONE of the other stuff said matters at all because we're all dead in our sin. That is the context of 1 Corinthians 15 is it not? Here... let me help by posting the chapter.

1 Corinthians 15

6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep;
7 then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles;
8 and last of all, as it were to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.
9 For I am the least of the apostles, who am not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me.
11 Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.
12 ¶Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised;
14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain.
15 Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we witnessed against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised.
16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;
17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.
18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
19 If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.
20 ¶But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,
24 then comes the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
27 For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.
28 And when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, that God may be all in all.
29 ¶Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?
30 Why are we also in danger every hour?
31 I protest, brethren, by the boasting in you, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
32 If from human motives I fought with wild beasts at Ephesus, what does it profit me? If the dead are not raised, LET US EAT AND DRINK, FOR TOMORROW WE DIE.
33 Do not be deceived: "Bad company corrupts good morals."
34 Become sober-minded as you ought, and stop sinning; for some have no knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.
35 ¶But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?"
36 You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies;
37 and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else.
38 But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish.
40 There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
45 So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.
49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 ¶Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.
55 "O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY ? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING ?"
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;
57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord.

Paul is simply countering a teaching that there was no resurrection of the dead.

Why not from the begining Ken?!

1Co 15:1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,

1Co 15:2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

1Co 15:3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
1Co 15:4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
1Co 15:5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.

Now, Paul calls this the gospel, in which you stand, and by which you are saved. That was of first importance ken.

If that gospel remains; If it does not go through one ear, and out of the other, but if it sticks in there, then you have received the word and understood it.

ProjectPeter
Jan 24th 2009, 11:05 PM
You forgot this bit ken:

1Co 6:11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

I didn't "forget this bit"... it wasn't necessary to answer the question you asked.

Also keep in mind that Paul makes it quite clear...

1 Corinthians 9:23 And I do all things for the sake of the gospel, that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
24 ¶Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
25 And everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
27 but I buffet my body and make it my slave, lest possibly, after I have preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.

1 Corinthians 10:1 For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 and all ate the same spiritual food;
4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
5 Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.
6 Now these things happened as examples for us, that we should not crave evil things, as they also craved.
7 And do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, "THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TO PLAY."
8 Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day.
9 Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents.
10 Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer.
11 Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.

Very much in line with the gospel that Paul preached. ;)

billy-brown 2
Jan 24th 2009, 11:52 PM
Oh, the memories this thread brings back. :) Of course, this thread is a perfect OSAS/NOSAS candidate! Way to go PP, keeping up the good work. :)

Anyways, to address the original question of this thread (even if it seems to long been passed), the gospel can not be understood by any set of doctrinal statements. The gospel isn't a set of beliefs. It is about something that is happening. Jesus preaching about the gospel (or good news) was that the kingdom of God was coming.

Now this gospel of the Kingdom isn't some individualized, spiritualized hope in getting their sins forgiven and resting in a spiritual heaven. It should be understood in its Jewish context.

Isaiah 52:1-15:


This passage contains the basic Jewish hope, to which Jesus was speaking to. Israel was captive under Babylon (notice the italicized parts fitting in with the motif of captivity and freedom). That good news was that God was going to free Israel from Babylon. But pressing it forward to Jesus' message, it was that God was going to bring His reign on earth (kingdom), which would destroy all other oppressive regimes (literally other kingdoms, but metaphorically other things) so that rejoice and happiness can be had, or more particularly, peace/shalom (see underlined part).

All the oppressors will negated so that God's people could live in peace, harmony, and happiness. No where in the text of Isaiah 52 is it about forgiveness, or heaven, as we have turned the gospel into today. Certainly, those may be part of the gospel, but the gospel isn't about what God is doing for me individually. It is about what God is doing to bring about shalom. That is why Jesus was healing, because it was part of God's Kingdom coming in and he was showing it (although God's Kingdom isn't exclusively about healing in the present).

In other words, God will reign, and everything that might be a hindrance to the happiness of God's people will be removed, things or even people. And so the good news is that God will allow us to become His people without first changing our ways, but we must be the people who are pressing on towards being people who will not be sources of harm (so we get in without works, but we must be growing in obedience once we are in). Turn to Isaiah 1:20-26 to see how God promised to remove the evil doers from Jerusalem, and through doing that, would make the city righteous again.

Jesus comes into this because He is the very grounds of hope or knowledge for us to becoming the people that are fit to live God's kingdom. Just as Jesus died, was raised from the dead to reign at God's side forever, we too can be. We trust that God through what he revealed to us in Jesus (echoes of 1 Peter 1:21) will raise our bodies up from the dead also. The fear of death no longer enslaves us (Hebrews 2:14), so we are free to be righteous and abstain from sin (see Romans 6 also). Jesus also shows us God's own righteous nature that we are to have ("Be complete as your heavenly father is complete"; "Be holy, for I am holy"), so emulation of/following the foot steps of Jesus is critical so that just as Jesus was raised to eternal life, we too would be. Without Jesus, we wouldn't know what it completely means to be righteous (Laws can only go so far in teaching). Without Jesus, we wouldn't know to trust God to even raise our bodies from the dead and so have victory over death, so that we could let go our own concerns and live righteously (hence why Romans 10:9-10 says belief that God raised Jesus is essentially and leads to righteousness).

We might could also say that the gospel includes the fact that Jesus, a human like us, is also our Lord.

But the Gospel can not be boiled down to any few statements. It isn't about a set of propositions. Nor is it really just about us as individuals, as we so often times make it out to be. It isn't about us getting a free ride in without any standards. It is the news that all is wrong with the world is going to be righted with God's coming and growing reign ("Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven"). It is good news for those who are willing to become people, by the held of God, who are fit to live there. But it is bad news for everyone who would rather live selfishly.


Yep . . . what he said ^ . . .

:pray:

Partaker of Christ
Jan 25th 2009, 12:57 AM
I didn't "forget this bit"... it wasn't necessary to answer the question you asked.

Of course it was necessary.


Also keep in mind that Paul makes it quite clear...

1 Corinthians 9:23 And I do all things for the sake of the gospel, that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
24 ¶Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
25 And everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
27 but I buffet my body and make it my slave, lest possibly, after I have preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.

1Co 3:8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
1Co 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.


1 Corinthians 10:1 For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 and all ate the same spiritual food;
4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
5 Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.
6 Now these things happened as examples for us, that we should not crave evil things, as they also craved.
7 And do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, "THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TO PLAY."
8 Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day.
9 Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents.
10 Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer.
11 Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.

Very much in line with the gospel that Paul preached. ;)

So Paul tells us how to live the gospel

ProjectPeter
Jan 25th 2009, 12:58 AM
Of course it was necessary.



1Co 3:8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
1Co 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.



So Paul tells us how to live the gospel
Uh... because that is part of the gospel. ;)

My heart's Desire
Jan 25th 2009, 06:06 AM
It is apparent that to me that anyone who believes OSAS has been indoctrinated by the teachings of men. OSAS is a doctrine that a young bible student thought up when he was 25 years old. You will hardly find anyone who picks up a bible and comes to that position on their own revelation. You have to be brainwashed into believing it.
Thank you. I'll happily stay brainwashed. Who was that 25 yr old?
If one doesn't believe in OSAS then they'd have to explain what exactly it would take to make a saved person lost. How many times can they be lost and saved again? Is there a number somewhere we can go by?
Is there a list out there somewhere? Or if a person is saved then gets lost again before they die then they no longer have any more chances to get it right again, right?
They'd have to be able to explain exactly what a saved person would have to avoid in order to maybe, hopefully find out that they ended up saved after death.

When it comes right down to it, people are saying the good news (gospel) is that we are all sinners, Christ as God's Son came to earth and died in our place on the Cross so that sinners can be reconciled to God when they believe, yet they are saying that is not enough. Though a sinner cannot save themselves, they can (repent) give up that sin before they accept Christ. Ok, if they can give up sin in order to believe then what saves them, the fact that they gave up sin or the fact that they believed?
They are saying that after believing in Christ then they have to maintain their salvation themselves except that they never really say how much maintainance one has to do to REALLY be saved, which really means they don't know if they will be saved after they die because after all they have to endure, etc. Is there anywhere that says just how much enduring and what to endure allows a person in heaven? What gets them in heaven? Enduring or believing Christ?
Just how much fruit after being saved on earth, does it take to be acceptable to Christ to gain heaven after they die ? Does anyone know? I know it is not how many or want kind of works does it take because folks will quickly deny that works get you into heaven.
Does anyone know? What is perfection? How perfect do you have to be to die and be in heaven, though you believe in Christ alone? Complete (perfect) has to mean that you never sin. EVER! That you do the perfect works and well, you'd just about be a sinless, perfect person in real time. If not, then you'd be lost again and again every time you sin or every time you don't do the perfect work or have the perfect fruit, or every time you didn't endure quite enough or well enough .speaking of, how many of the fruits that is listed do you have to have all the time 24/7 to make sure one finds out they are saved AFTER they have died?
Do you know that what condemned people in the 4 Gospels was the fact that they didn't accept that Jesus was/is the Son of God, their Messiah? They couldn't even get started because they didn't believe He was/is God.
John 3:36 says this:
he who believes in the Son Has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him. Ever wonder why this verse doesn't say;
He who obeys the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey will not see life instead of what it does say?
Makes one ask the question, what about the Son is it you have to believe in order to have eternal Life. What do you have to disobey that condemns you? The commandments?
Ahh, nevermind. Hearing NOSAS, these are the questions in my mind anyway though it must be clear to others.
Where is that whole list that makes up the Whole Gospel whereby men must be saved?

revrobor
Jan 25th 2009, 07:27 AM
This left me clueless.

I said: I'll take Paul's recommendation.

you said: Paul said to work

I said: Paul always told us who we were in Christ before he told us to do anything.

And then you said:

No... that was actually the theme of the gospel. Of first importance, Jesus is the Christ. He died and was resurrected and lives today. Without that you aren't even on the team. Also that message included righteousness, self-control and the judgment to come. With that also came warnings to continue in the faith. Paul didn't quote John 3:16 and consider it all good... as much as that might frost a few shorts.



I don't follow you at all.

Mike:

In case you haven't figured it out yet the only time you'll get Peter to agree with you is when you acknowledge that he is right. He is what is called a "right fighter" - that is one who holds being right superior in importance to being correct. And he is numbered among those who are unable to differentiate between the Gospel and doctrine therefore clouding and confusing the issue whenever he discusses it with anyone. So relax. You know the truth. Don't try to understand what Project Peter is saying because there is no understanding to it.

shepherdsword
Jan 25th 2009, 07:47 AM
Thank you. I'll happily stay brainwashed.

This was the error the Pharisees committed. They taught the precepts of men.



Who was that 25 yr old?

Ever hear of anyone name Calvin? That's right, he was 25 years old when he thought up that deception.


If one doesn't believe in OSAS then they'd have to explain what exactly it would take to make a saved person lost.

Why would they when the Bible makes it clear?

Heb 6
4For it is impossible to restore to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit,
5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come—
6and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people to repentance again because they are nailing the Son of God to the cross again by rejecting him, holding him up to public shame.




How many times can they be lost and saved again? Is there a number somewhere we can go by?
Is there a list out there somewhere? Or if a person is saved then gets lost again before they die then they no longer have any more chances to get it right again, right?
They'd have to be able to explain exactly what a saved person would have to avoid in order to maybe, hopefully find out that they ended up saved after death.



I don't think you understand. Once you lose it it is impossible to regain it.
Your heart is then hardened beyond all hope of repentance.

ProjectPeter
Jan 25th 2009, 12:51 PM
Mike:

In case you haven't figured it out yet the only time you'll get Peter to agree with you is when you acknowledge that he is right. He is what is called a "right fighter" - that is one who holds being right superior in importance to being correct. And he is numbered among those who are unable to differentiate between the Gospel and doctrine therefore clouding and confusing the issue whenever he discusses it with anyone. So relax. You know the truth. Don't try to understand what Project Peter is saying because there is no understanding to it.Well... we can all clearly notice that you haven't addressed a single passage that I have posted... but like most... you have an opinion. Problem is... opinions don't much matter a lick in the grand scheme of things. So care to actually discuss any of those there passages of Scripture? ;)

mikebr
Jan 25th 2009, 01:11 PM
Mike:

In case you haven't figured it out yet the only time you'll get Peter to agree with you is when you acknowledge that he is right. He is what is called a "right fighter" - that is one who holds being right superior in importance to being correct. And he is numbered among those who are unable to differentiate between the Gospel and doctrine therefore clouding and confusing the issue whenever he discusses it with anyone. So relax. You know the truth. Don't try to understand what Project Peter is saying because there is no understanding to it.


I've been going round and round with ol' PP for years. :lol: He's so right that He knows my eternal destiny regardless of my position in Christ.

threebigrocks
Jan 25th 2009, 06:31 PM
Let's let the personal attacks come to a quick halt, and stick with scripture. We can't go wrong with scripture. If you disagree - support it. If you agree - support it. Any further insults will be deleted and point worthy infractions will be issued.

Also - why is there disagreement on what the gospel is? That is more distressing than insults.

My heart's Desire
Jan 25th 2009, 06:43 PM
Also - why is there disagreement on what the gospel is? That is more distressing than insults.
That's what I'm saying. It is very scary that people don't really know what the gospel is and that's my point.

My heart's Desire
Jan 25th 2009, 06:45 PM
This was the error the Pharisees committed. They taught the precepts of men.




Ever hear of anyone name Calvin? That's right, he was 25 years old when he thought up that deception.



Why would they when the Bible makes it clear?

Heb 6
4For it is impossible to restore to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit,
5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come—
6and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people to repentance again because they are nailing the Son of God to the cross again by rejecting him, holding him up to public shame.





I don't think you understand. Once you lose it it is impossible to regain it.
Your heart is then hardened beyond all hope of repentance.
Yes, well I'm not a Calvinist and also, I believe the Hebrews verse is misinterpreted all the time.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 25th 2009, 07:10 PM
This was the error the Pharisees committed. They taught the precepts of men.




Ever hear of anyone name Calvin? That's right, he was 25 years old when he thought up that deception.



Why would they when the Bible makes it clear?

Heb 6
4For it is impossible to restore to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit,
5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come—
6and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people to repentance again because they are nailing the Son of God to the cross again by rejecting him, holding him up to public shame.





I don't think you understand. Once you lose it it is impossible to regain it.
Your heart is then hardened beyond all hope of repentance.

That is not true, and I suggest that it is you who does not understand the passage above. It is not the unforgivable sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, and therefore falling away is forgivable.

And were does it say 'you lose it'?

If the old man is dead and buried, then do you say, that it is the new man born of God, born from above, and born of incorruptible seed, that can loose it?

threebigrocks
Jan 25th 2009, 07:11 PM
I believe the Hebrews verse is misinterpreted all the time.

It says what it says, nothing more, nothing less. Hard pill to swallow - yes, sure can be.

My heart's Desire
Jan 27th 2009, 07:12 AM
It says what it says, nothing more, nothing less..
Yep, you are right as long as it is seen in context and in alignment with all the other verses that pertain to salvation.

CommanderRobey
Jan 27th 2009, 08:08 AM
this is a simple question but is a source of a lot confusion in the church today. thanks in advance for your answers. yaza
The Gospel is the good news that Jesus Christ was born of the virgin Mary, was crucified on the cross for the sins of mankind, and rose from the third day conquering death. Because of this we can have life eternal in Him if we place our trust in Him.

shepherdsword
Jan 27th 2009, 08:20 AM
The Gospel is the good news that Jesus Christ was born of the virgin Mary, was crucified on the cross for the sins of mankind, and rose from the third day conquering death. Because of this we can have life eternal in Him if we place our trust in Him.

:agree:
Yes, it is a simple message of salvation through faith in the blood of Jesus's atoning work. This is key to the everlasting gospel:

Rev 14:6-7
6And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

ProjectPeter
Jan 27th 2009, 01:41 PM
The Gospel is the good news that Jesus Christ was born of the virgin Mary, was crucified on the cross for the sins of mankind, and rose from the third day conquering death. Because of this we can have life eternal in Him if we place our trust in Him.
And if that is the gospel... where do I see righteousness? Self-control? Judgment to come?

mikebr
Jan 27th 2009, 01:53 PM
I think the larger issues arises out of our definition of salvation. If we believe that we are saved primarily form the wrath of God/hell then we will see the good news as God has provided a way out of hell as if hell were His primary goal for His creation.

If we believe that salvation is from sin itself then the good news is that He overcame sin on our behalf.

Some see sin as a crime that needs to be punished other see sin as a disease that needs a cure.

There is and will remain a dichotomy among believers. This board is proof of such a dichotomy.

We both read scripture day and night you see black and I see white. Or viseversa!:hmm:

ProjectPeter
Jan 27th 2009, 02:08 PM
I think the larger issues arises out of our definition of salvation. If we believe that we are saved primarily form the wrath of God/hell then we will see the good news as God has provided a way out of hell as if hell were His primary goal for His creation.

If we believe that salvation is from sin itself then the good news is that He overcame sin on our behalf.

Some see sin as a crime that needs to be punished other see sin as a disease that needs a cure.

There is and will remain a dichotomy among believers. This board is proof of such a dichotomy.

We both read scripture day and night you see black and I see white. Or viseversa!:hmm:
What are the wages of sin Mike? Call it a sickness or penal... the wage is the same if that is what one dies in.

mikebr
Jan 27th 2009, 02:20 PM
What are the wages of sin Mike? Call it a sickness or penal... the wage is the same if that is what one dies in.


I used to be dead. Not anymore. Jesus didn't come to make bad people good, He came to make dead people alive.:D

I have been (WAS)crucified with Christ!:pp

ProjectPeter
Jan 27th 2009, 02:21 PM
I used to be dead. Not anymore. Jesus didn't come to make bad people good, He came to make dead people alive.:D

I have been (WAS)crucified with Christ!:pp
It's a daily thing Mike... there lies the rub. What you was, was.

mikebr
Jan 27th 2009, 06:47 PM
It's a daily thing Mike... there lies the rub. What you was, was.


It may be to you but its relational to me. I will keep it that way. I am crucified. I am dead. You just keep working your tail off. I think I'll relax in Him.

ProjectPeter
Jan 27th 2009, 07:27 PM
It may be to you but its relational to me. I will keep it that way. I am crucified. I am dead. You just keep working your tail off. I think I'll relax in Him.
Sure... does Scripture frighten you Mike?

mikebr
Jan 27th 2009, 07:41 PM
Sure... does Scripture frighten you Mike?


I'm more frightened by our use or misuse of it. If you are asking me to respond to the scripture you posted................Would it do any good?

ProjectPeter
Jan 27th 2009, 08:29 PM
I'm more frightened by our use or misuse of it. If you are asking me to respond to the scripture you posted................Would it do any good?
Those passages contradict what you said so hopefully it would do you some good. And in that I am interested in how I took them out of context. I didn't add any comment to speak of... just posted the passages. So kind of hard to take something out of context that way but hey... feel free to show me where my context is wrong.

My heart's Desire
Jan 27th 2009, 11:42 PM
And if that is the gospel... where do I see righteousness? Self-control? Judgment to come?
If you mean that this is something that people need to know, before being saved, that they are unrighteousness, they have no self-control and they will be judged, then I'd agree with you. The good news is that Jesus died/was buried/and rose again for our sin. But if people don't know why He did that, the good news doesn't make sense to them.

ProjectPeter
Jan 27th 2009, 11:44 PM
If you mean that this is something that people need to know, before being saved, that they are unrighteousness, they have no self-control and they will be judged, then I'd agree with you. The good news is that Jesus died/was buried/and rose again for our sin. But if people don't know why He did that, the good news doesn't make sense to them.
I see... now you are simply arguing semantics. ;)

My heart's Desire
Jan 28th 2009, 12:08 AM
I see... now you are simply arguing semantics. ;)

Regardless, of that do you deny that it is true?

ProjectPeter
Jan 28th 2009, 12:17 AM
Regardless, of that do you deny that it is true?
It is all part of the gospel. You guys are thinking the gospel is only the really, really, good part and nothing that seems negative in it. You are not correct. ;)

BroRog
Jan 28th 2009, 12:26 AM
It is all part of the gospel. You guys are thinking the gospel is only the really, really, good part and nothing that seems negative in it. You are not correct. ;)

Peter, are you saying that the bad news is subsumed under the good news in order to give the good news a context? Is it like we have to know what we are being saved FROM in order for the gospel to be relevant to us?

ProjectPeter
Jan 28th 2009, 12:40 AM
Peter, are you saying that the bad news is subsumed under the good news in order to give the good news a context? Is it like we have to know what we are being saved FROM in order for the gospel to be relevant to us?
Why do you call it "bad news"? The gospel is simply a "good message" and that "good message" covers a bunch of things including righteousness, self-control, judgment to come etc. It is like you guys think good news means HAPPY HAPPY JOY JOY!!!! When in fact it was a message that was divisive and to some it carries the smell of death. It don't carry that smell because it is just Jesus died, rose, and lives again. ;) Come on Rog... you know that even if we agree on other issues... right? I know it is sport to disagree with me and all but certainly the Reformed folk haven't slid this far backwards as to reject what I just said as gospel?

Partaker of Christ
Jan 28th 2009, 12:43 AM
And if that is the gospel... where do I see righteousness? Self-control? Judgment to come?

:hmm: In the fruit of the Spirit?

Partaker of Christ
Jan 28th 2009, 12:54 AM
It's a daily thing Mike... there lies the rub. What you was, was.

Do you mean, that we get crucified with Christ daily, baptized daily, and we are made alive in Him daily?

What is the point of our burial, if we are not dead?

Does Paul say, 'recon yourselves dead to sin daily'?

Partaker of Christ
Jan 28th 2009, 12:58 AM
Sure... does Scripture frighten you Mike?

Does the 'truth' of scripture frighten you Ken?

Will it destroy your Pet Project?

Sirus
Jan 28th 2009, 01:09 AM
Also - why is there disagreement on what the gospel is? That is more distressing than insults.I agree, but reading the NT specifically Acts then the epistles we can see the knowledge of the gospel expanding and unfolding. At first it was just Jesus died for sins, rose, and ascended to be the Judge. To others, have you received since you believed? Over ten years later Paul comes by revelation to Jerusalem. Jesus said he had much to tell the disciples but they could not bear it. Peter said much of what Paul wrote was hard to understand. Later Peter writes 'dead to sin' as revealed by Paul through Christ.

mikebr
Jan 28th 2009, 01:28 AM
Those passages contradict what you said so hopefully it would do you some good. And in that I am interested in how I took them out of context. I didn't add any comment to speak of... just posted the passages. So kind of hard to take something out of context that way but hey... feel free to show me where my context is wrong.

Thing is PP you are still under the Law. You quoted OT scripture. Yeah I saw the Hebrews scripture. Did I say you took them out of context. NO. I simply said that we read them differently. I know that ol' Project Peter is always right but I simply don't agree with your take on scripture. I could post some that you would change the meaning of but it wouldn't change what they say or my mind. I know that it will do no good to do likewise to you. So I want. Its really that simple.

Kinda like the Fear and Love thread.

BroRog
Jan 28th 2009, 01:40 AM
Why do you call it "bad news"? The gospel is simply a "good message" and that "good message" covers a bunch of things including righteousness, self-control, judgment to come etc. It is like you guys think good news means HAPPY HAPPY JOY JOY!!!! When in fact it was a message that was divisive and to some it carries the smell of death. It don't carry that smell because it is just Jesus died, rose, and lives again. ;) Come on Rog... you know that even if we agree on other issues... right? I know it is sport to disagree with me and all but certainly the Reformed folk haven't slid this far backwards as to reject what I just said as gospel?

No, certainly not. I didn't intend to disagree. I was just trying to understand you better. But it's really my fault cuz I misread your list. My bad.

I totally agree with you, now that I understand. Carry on. :)

Sirus
Jan 28th 2009, 02:47 AM
Do you mean, that we get crucified with Christ daily, baptized daily, and we are made alive in Him daily?

What is the point of our burial, if we are not dead?

Does Paul say, 'recon yourselves dead to sin daily'?preach it!!! :hug:

ProjectPeter
Jan 28th 2009, 01:44 PM
Thing is PP you are still under the Law. You quoted OT scripture.Oh my... the horror of it all!!!! Uh... that don't make you under the law Mike. It is Scripture.


Yeah I saw the Hebrews scripture. Did I say you took them out of context. NO. I simply said that we read them differently.No Mike... what you actually said was "I'm more frightened by our use or misuse of it." That was a whole lot more than we just read them differently eh?


I know that ol' Project Peter is always right but I simply don't agree with your take on scripture. I could post some that you would change the meaning of but it wouldn't change what they say or my mind. I know that it will do no good to do likewise to you. So I want. Its really that simple.

Kinda like the Fear and Love thread.You said I misuse the Scripture... show where Mike. You can't dude and you know it... those passages mean what they say. ;)

ProjectPeter
Jan 28th 2009, 01:45 PM
No, certainly not. I didn't intend to disagree. I was just trying to understand you better. But it's really my fault cuz I misread your list. My bad.

I totally agree with you, now that I understand. Carry on. :)
Good... you were freaking me out on that and I figured shoot... not the Reformed guys too?

mikebr
Jan 28th 2009, 01:48 PM
Actually PP, I NEVER intended to say that you were misusing scripture. I don't for one SECOND believe that you would misuse scripture. I was simply making a general statement that scripture has been used and misused to frighten people.

It would make absolutely no sense to say that you misused it and then turn around and say the we read it differently.