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itzme
Jan 10th 2009, 09:28 PM
No, I am not advocating doing whatever we feel like, its more a theological question.

Some quick rebuttals;

If God is all powerful, then he does not need us to "fix" the world.

If we have free will should we have the free will to choose our own path? Why should God define that path? Why should we be punished for our free will?

Is the creator of the universe omnipowerful if he cannot direct his creation?

If it is foreknown how we will act then how can we say we have a choice or that we can be punished/rewarded? (I have been thinking lately on how God can be thought to exist in "time").

In the totality of the universe our feeble scratches on it are miniscule, does it matter then how we live?

Is our relationship like that of a father/child relationship? If so is that enough to force the behavior issue. Be born again, have to change behavior, not born again be cast away?

If good behavior is our gift of love to God, then how can a gift of love be "forced", if punishment awaits those who do not, then the action cannot be a gift.

Just some wandering thoughts.

itzme
Jan 10th 2009, 09:37 PM
No, I am not advocating doing whatever we feel like, its more a theological question.

Some quick rebuttals;

If God is all powerful, then he does not need us to "fix" the world.

If we have free will should we have the free will to choose our own path? Why should God define that path? Why should we be punished for our free will?

Is the creator of the universe omnipowerful if he cannot direct his creation?

If it is foreknown how we will act then how can we say we have a choice or that we can be punished/rewarded? (I have been thinking lately on how God can be thought to exist in "time").

In the totality of the universe our feeble scratches on it are miniscule, does it matter then how we live?

Is our relationship like that of a father/child relationship? If so is that enough to force the behavior issue. Be born again, have to change behavior, not born again be cast away?

If good behavior is our gift of love to God, then how can a gift of love be "forced", if punishment awaits those who do not, then the action cannot be a gift.

Just some wandering thoughts.

A quick rebuttal to my own post from the top;
1.Some say that the point of existence is to fix the world-Tikum Olem
2.Some say that we do have the free will and the internal knowledge to pick the good and that is what life is for.
3.Some say for the creation of the universe God restricted his nature.
4.Free will I will leave alone
5.Some say that all actions have universe changing consequenses.
6.When we are reborn we are rescued from separation and santification is the journey we are all on.

moonglow
Jan 10th 2009, 09:45 PM
No, I am not advocating doing whatever we feel like, its more a theological question.

Some quick rebuttals;

If God is all powerful, then he does not need us to "fix" the world.

If we have free will should we have the free will to choose our own path? Why should God define that path? Why should we be punished for our free will?

Is the creator of the universe omnipowerful if he cannot direct his creation?

If it is foreknown how we will act then how can we say we have a choice or that we can be punished/rewarded? (I have been thinking lately on how God can be thought to exist in "time").

In the totality of the universe our feeble scratches on it are miniscule, does it matter then how we live?

Is our relationship like that of a father/child relationship? If so is that enough to force the behavior issue. Be born again, have to change behavior, not born again be cast away?

If good behavior is our gift of love to God, then how can a gift of love be "forced", if punishment awaits those who do not, then the action cannot be a gift.

Just some wandering thoughts.

First it shouldn't take much of an effort to 'be good' as you say if we are truly born again and have the Holy Spirit in us. We aren't 'behaving' out of fear of eternal punishment. I think this chapter might help you:

Romans 6
Sinís Power Is Broken
1 Well then, should we keep on sinning so that God can show us more and more of his wonderful grace? 2 Of course not! Since we have died to sin, how can we continue to live in it? 3 Or have you forgotten that when we were joined with Christ Jesus in baptism, we joined him in his death? 4 For we died and were buried with Christ by baptism. And just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glorious power of the Father, now we also may live new lives.

5 Since we have been united with him in his death, we will also be raised to life as he was. 6 We know that our old sinful selves were crucified with Christ so that sin might lose its power in our lives. We are no longer slaves to sin. 7 For when we died with Christ we were set free from the power of sin. 8 And since we died with Christ, we know we will also live with him. 9 We are sure of this because Christ was raised from the dead, and he will never die again. Death no longer has any power over him. 10 When he died, he died once to break the power of sin. But now that he lives, he lives for the glory of God. 11 So you also should consider yourselves to be dead to the power of sin and alive to God through Christ Jesus.

12 Do not let sin control the way you live; do not give in to sinful desires. 13 Do not let any part of your body become an instrument of evil to serve sin. Instead, give yourselves completely to God, for you were dead, but now you have new life. So use your whole body as an instrument to do what is right for the glory of God. 14 Sin is no longer your master, for you no longer live under the requirements of the law. Instead, you live under the freedom of Godís grace.

15 Well then, since Godís grace has set us free from the law, does that mean we can go on sinning? Of course not! 16 Donít you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living. 17 Thank God! Once you were slaves of sin, but now you wholeheartedly obey this teaching we have given you. 18 Now you are free from your slavery to sin, and you have become slaves to righteous living.

19 Because of the weakness of your human nature, I am using the illustration of slavery to help you understand all this. Previously, you let yourselves be slaves to impurity and lawlessness, which led ever deeper into sin. Now you must give yourselves to be slaves to righteous living so that you will become holy.

20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the obligation to do right. 21 And what was the result? You are now ashamed of the things you used to do, things that end in eternal doom. 22 But now you are free from the power of sin and have become slaves of God. Now you do those things that lead to holiness and result in eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.
*********************
I don't know about you but I don't really want to be a robot.

God bless

dan
Jan 11th 2009, 05:15 PM
No, I am not advocating doing whatever we feel like, its more a theological question.

Some quick rebuttals;

If God is all powerful, then he does not need us to "fix" the world.

Our attempts to fix the world are impotent. The aim is to appear to think and feel like God.

IS 65:12 Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.


If we have free will should we have the free will to choose our own path? Why should God define that path? Why should we be punished for our free will?

Because we are built to worship God. If we don't, we have failed our first requirement.


Is the creator of the universe omnipowerful if he cannot direct his creation?

His aim is to have people choose Him, not direct His Creation.


If it is foreknown how we will act then how can we say we have a choice or that we can be punished/rewarded? (I have been thinking lately on how God can be thought to exist in "time").

You truly have free will regarding Him. You constantly are tempted by evil choices. You must resist successfully.


In the totality of the universe our feeble scratches on it are miniscule, does it matter then how we live?

If we don't agree with Him, our temptation will increase, if we agree with Him our temptation will diminish, and we will succeed.


Is our relationship like that of a father/child relationship? If so is that enough to force the behavior issue. Be born again, have to change behavior, not born again be cast away?

No, you are more like co-equals until you die. You are given choices, many times over.


If good behavior is our gift of love to God, then how can a gift of love be "forced", if punishment awaits those who do not, then the action cannot be a gift.

The gift cannot be forced, you will choose. You must believe to accept His Gift. You must believe to give Him love.

BroRog
Jan 11th 2009, 06:32 PM
Some quick rebuttals;

If God is all powerful, then he does not need us to "fix" the world.

This is exactly right. In fact, we are too finite to have much of an effect on setting things right. All we can do is the best we can given our limited abilities and resources.

For instance, In Romans 12:18 Paul makes this statement

If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men.

Some things are outside of our control.

If we have free will should we have the free will to choose our own path?

Our "path" if you will, is not solely determined by our choices. We walk in a world in which some choices are not available to us because others have made the choice for us, or others have denied us the opportunity. We don't make the road, but we walk in the road set before us.

Why should God define that path? Why should we be punished for our free will?

When we walk down the road, we may come to a crossroads in which we must decide which fork to take. One particular crossroads may present us with a way to define who we are. God is not going to punish me for the choices I make per se, but for the person I am.

That is, if I come to a fork in the road, and the left fork is where a child of God would never go, and the right fork is where a child of God would always go, I would hope that I would take the right fork rather than the left.

Is the creator of the universe omnipowerful if he cannot direct his creation?

By definition, an omnipotent creator directs his creation.

If it is foreknown how we will act then how can we say we have a choice or that we can be punished/rewarded?

Sometimes we confuse foreknowledge with predestination. Foreknowledge is to know something in advance. Predestine is to set the destiny of a person in advance.

Foreknowledge may or may not be compatible with autonomous freedom of the will depending on how God comes to know what he knows. If God learns about our choices by inspection, i.e. he goes to the future to see what choice I make, this is entirely different than divine determinism in which God knows what choice I will make because he creates my choice.

In the totality of the universe our feeble scratches on it are miniscule, does it matter then how we live?

Yes. Fatalism doesn't necessarily follow from Divine determinism. From the Biblical point of view, what we do always matters.

Is our relationship like that of a father/child relationship? If so is that enough to force the behavior issue. Be born again, have to change behavior, not born again be cast away?

If I understand your question, our relationship to God changes if and when he gives a man new birth. In the case of a man who has been born again, judgment is a fait accompli, i.e. he already knows what he deserves and that God's grace is not what he deserves. Given that his final destiny is in the hands of a God who is now working to his benefit, he can rest in that status. Then, like a father to a son, God acts for the benefit of that man, bringing him to wisdom through experience and education through the Bible.

If good behavior is our gift of love to God, then how can a gift of love be "forced", if punishment awaits those who do not, then the action cannot be a gift.

Force requires that one object or person attempt to move another object or person from it's original path. At the same time, when a novel writer has a character walk down the road, the writer isn't forcing the character down the road. The character is walking down the road because the author is writing it that way. Likewise, God, as the creator, never forces us to do anything. If we do anything at all, its because God is authoring it.